1 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:06,400 You're listening to the reversing climate change, 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,500 podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,100 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:14,100 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:18,600 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,300 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon today I have 7 00:00:21,300 --> 00:00:23,900 with me dr. Jan, masaryk a senior director 8 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:27,900 at climate Works Foundation, Jan, you lead the carbon dioxide 9 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:30,200 removal fund. Their thanks so much for being 10 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,000 here. Oh, it's a pleasure Ross. 11 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,700 Thanks for having me. I'm happy to have you. 12 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:39,200 It's been a long time coming. I am happy that you have such an 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,600 illustrious career in climate and also in carbon removal, 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,000 sometimes people think of nori as being involved in carbon 15 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,100 removal for a long time, but it's only been a few years and 16 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:52,700 maybe just carbon removal has grown so much the last couple, 17 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,100 but I think you've been there basically, since it really 18 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:58,200 began. Is that a correct understanding? 19 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,900 I think we're too. Really pretty well synced up 20 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:05,800 right around the time of the Paris cop. 21 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,900 I think everyone saw that in order to stay within sustainable 22 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:13,500 temperature bounds, we needed to start thinking seriously about 23 00:01:13,500 --> 00:01:18,500 carbon removal and I must also tip my hat to know a die attach 24 00:01:18,500 --> 00:01:21,700 and Gianna Amador as well as Julio Friedman. 25 00:01:21,700 --> 00:01:25,200 They have been our trusted advisors and partners from the 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,100 start. Okay well fair enough and 27 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:31,600 they've all been on the podcast. That's all My it's about time to 28 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,700 have the others getting the gang together. 29 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,000 All right? Yeah. 30 00:01:36,100 --> 00:01:39,300 Well, how did you find your way into carbon removal? 31 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:44,400 What has your career been like? Well, I started a very long time 32 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,400 ago. Next year marks my 30th year in 33 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:53,900 the climate and energy space and mostly in nonprofits in DC. 34 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:57,000 I like to refer to myself as a husband, but I'm one of those 35 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,800 people who spent the early part of my career working on. 36 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:04,000 Carbon pricing systems both in Congress as well as here in 37 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,900 California. Where former Carpenter Nichols 38 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:10,199 brought me into the air resources board to help 39 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,900 Implement ab32, which is not just carbon pricing but a whole 40 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:17,700 Suite of other measures. Although there are any number of 41 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:22,700 states as well as National level, as well as multi, you 42 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:25,400 know, multi-nation trading system regimes. 43 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,400 They've been a little bit late in coming and haven't been 44 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:33,300 Distantly ambitious. And so, in addition to taking 45 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:37,300 emissions, to zero with pricing mechanisms and standards and 46 00:02:37,300 --> 00:02:41,000 other regimes, we now find ourselves and the unenviable 47 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,200 position of having to remove carbon from the atmosphere as 48 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,900 well as eliminating emissions. So you're saying it's your fault 49 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:53,800 that we have carbon. It is I it is entirely my fault. 50 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:59,800 I I worked on systems that for whatever reasons resulted in big 51 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,200 Active action problems and free ridership problems. 52 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,200 So yes it's my fault and so it's a / it's entirely appropriate 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,800 now that I'm working on the removal piece, I'd love to hear 54 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,600 more about that. What kind of collective action 55 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,300 problems and free? Ridership problems. 56 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:17,600 Did you encounter and how might someone working in this space? 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,700 Now try to avoid that and I realized is it higher show on 58 00:03:20,708 --> 00:03:23,600 its own, really? It's a great question and 59 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,900 somebody actually, very, very smart and the UK during a 60 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:29,800 webinar earlier this morning sort of pose the same question, 61 00:03:29,900 --> 00:03:34,900 It's like if we can't get all nations to agree to join in a 62 00:03:34,900 --> 00:03:39,900 global carbon pricing system where we impose a price on 63 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:44,900 fossil Laden, fuels and reward fossil free Endeavors. 64 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:49,700 What makes us think that we can somehow create a commensurate 65 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:54,500 system for removal which because although there's excess CO2 in 66 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:58,500 the atmosphere. It's much more diffuse and takes 67 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,300 a lot more energy. To try to pull it back down to 68 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:05,300 earth, than just capturing it at the sort of end of pipe flue gas 69 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:07,100 stream. What makes us think that we're 70 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:12,600 going to be more successful. That, and my short answer is 71 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,500 that. I tend to be a bit of an 72 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:20,500 optimist and I look at what people said 30 and 40 years ago 73 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:24,500 about solar and what they said about ATVs and now you know, 74 00:04:24,500 --> 00:04:28,900 musk oscillates as being one of the wealthiest people in the 75 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:32,400 world because He's designed something fabulous that people 76 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:37,000 want to drive and it has that added benefit of not releasing 77 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,300 any tailpipe emissions. And I am not going to say that 78 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,200 that Society should innovate its way out of problems because 79 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,600 sometimes when we innovate, we create new problems for 80 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:46,700 ourselves. Right? 81 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,900 You know, fossil eliminated horse manure on the streets, 82 00:04:50,900 --> 00:04:53,000 created climate change in the process. 83 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:57,400 But that being said, when I look at people such as Noah died 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,800 Chand ji on Amador and Patron. Matt Rogers, who invented the 85 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,100 nest thermostat? I am eternally optimistic. 86 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:07,500 And I think one of the great things about carbon removal that 87 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:11,200 we don't talk about very often is that we can create carbon 88 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,500 devalue. And I know that's a topic. 89 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:17,400 That's very popular among your listeners and many are engaged 90 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,000 in that, but it's a narrative that I find creates a lot of 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,500 Hope for people, that we can bring CO2 back down to earth, 92 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,800 and either lock it up permanently or that we can turn 93 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,100 it into really You know, cool things that's not carbon - it's 94 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:37,700 sort of carbon circular, but it makes people feel much more in 95 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:41,100 control of a problem that otherwise seems almost hopeless. 96 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:45,300 To stuff is a way of perhaps generalizing out from that, 97 00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:50,500 entrepreneurship and technological development is a 98 00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:53,200 potential solution to the collective action problems, 99 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,100 basically policy. It's, what many, but yes, it is. 100 00:05:57,100 --> 00:06:01,900 And, you know, another is a Rich, Innovation environment. 101 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:05,500 And of course I've, you know, lamented for years. 102 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:09,100 The fact that the u.s. spends more on potato chips and it does 103 00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:12,200 on rd&d and there is that big valley of death. 104 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,000 But I'm cautiously optimistic now that this new incoming 105 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,100 Administration, particularly looking at the new Biden Harris, 106 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:23,200 budget numbers, and I will fly again. 107 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,300 Excellent blog that Gianna published today on it. 108 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:33,300 Recognizes the Importance of supporting early stage 109 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:36,300 technology, such as director capture to bring them down the 110 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:38,300 cost curve. But I think, you know, 111 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,400 government rd&d as well as entrepreneurship are two 112 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,500 Pathways that have incubated any number of great breakthroughs. 113 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,400 And I'm cautiously optimistic that we can do the same here. 114 00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:52,400 We've had so many pessimists on lately chance. 115 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,000 Oh, thanks for sticking your neck out. 116 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,200 I'm usually a Debbie Downer. I don't know. 117 00:06:59,900 --> 00:07:03,400 Yeah, we've been wanting to do an episode about what is 118 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,700 happening with the Biden Administration and carbon 119 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:07,700 removal. This might be a good chance for 120 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:10,700 us to open that topic up. Some, what are you seeing? 121 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:16,100 Well, I'm absolutely delighted that so many of our top, former 122 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:22,000 grantees and partners and others have been appointed to really 123 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,900 important posts in the Biden Administration. 124 00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:27,800 And I won't say that that has anything to do with their 125 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,800 affiliation as former Grant. Use of climate works. 126 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,700 I think it's just that they were standouts in the field to begin 127 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:38,200 with, but it's delightful to see them sprinkle throughout the 128 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,500 Biden, Harris Administration, and creating a 129 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:44,900 whole-of-government approach to thinking about removal. 130 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:48,100 Let's, uh, let's talk about the American jobs plan and what 131 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:49,700 we're seeing in there. What? 132 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:53,400 You're looking forward to some good things about 45 q and 133 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,100 their, yes. You know we're very optimistic 134 00:07:56,100 --> 00:07:59,700 about 45 Q is and you know so we can talk about sort of executive 135 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:02,700 Branch action. We can talk about developments 136 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:05,900 on the hill. I think in sort of looking at 137 00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:10,700 the Biden Harris climate, agenda as a whole first, you have to 138 00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:13,600 look at the executive orders that came out in January. 139 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,500 The most recent stimulus that was passed, the December 140 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:19,700 stimulus, which contained all kinds of fabulous, Provisions 141 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:23,300 for director capture, even though it was still the Biden 142 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:26,000 Harris transition. At the time, the American jobs 143 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,200 plan and then most recently, the Biden budget and when You look 144 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:35,000 at those things, those measures as a whole, they are poised to 145 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,799 make historic strides on climate writ, large, particularly 146 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:43,200 climate mitigation, but also elevating Justice and labor as 147 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,500 part and parcel of climate progress in a way that I've 148 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:49,200 never seen before. So that's historic. 149 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:52,800 But I also think that it's, you know, it's very remarkable 150 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:56,700 putting the executive orders aside to look at the degree of 151 00:08:56,700 --> 00:09:00,800 ambition, coming out of goe and I don't think, A coincidence. 152 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,100 They have their first female Deputy in the office of fossil 153 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:07,500 energy, dr. Jenn Wilcox, whose magnificent 154 00:09:07,500 --> 00:09:10,700 and we've seen announcements already out of goe for a hundred 155 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:13,000 million dollars for deep decarbonization and Advanced 156 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,400 Technologies as well as 24 million dollars for director 157 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,900 capture applications that use less energy. 158 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:24,100 And as Gianna notes in her most recent blog, the Biden budget 159 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:28,400 has also proposes additional funding for the office of fossil 160 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,500 energy, as well as an Name change to the office of fossil 161 00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:35,400 energy and carbon management and funding specifically for deck. 162 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,700 So that's very exciting. But, you know, the technological 163 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:41,900 side of removal is just one part of the equation. 164 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,500 We're very excited to see Robert Bonnie back at the US, 165 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:50,200 Department of Agriculture. He's a thought, leader in the 166 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,800 space of carbon removal on the land side but he comes at it 167 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,400 with a jobs lens primarily. So we're super excited to see 168 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:04,600 161 million dollars there for potential funding to make sure 169 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,000 that the carbon that we're both mitigating and or avoiding as 170 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,000 well, as removing from soil is more accurately measured 171 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,600 reported and verified. That's very, very important. 172 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:22,400 And also demonstrates how the u.s. can model leadership in 173 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,500 going into the international discussions on the NDC side, we 174 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:29,400 have really good confidence about how much we can do on the 175 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,900 B-side to meet our Paris commitments, but the natural 176 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:36,300 side of the equation is always beset by greater scientific 177 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:38,300 uncertainties about how much you're storing. 178 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:41,000 And removing I'll just pause there for now. 179 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,600 But we're also very excited about the appointments at the 180 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,400 department of interior. We see our partners on tribal 181 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,300 lands as vital to carbon removal as well as attendant co-benefits 182 00:10:54,300 --> 00:10:57,800 in the form of freighter Forest Health and greater soil health. 183 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:04,000 It did notice this and often times there's a split pose 184 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,600 between these two camps of industrial carbon removal and 185 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,200 ecological but it seems like the bind Administration is very all 186 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,100 of the above which makes me wonder if that is actually true. 187 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,100 And what actually is not included in all of the above 188 00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:22,400 within their carbon removal plans, they just made a very 189 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:28,000 very important appointment on oceans but our newest area 190 00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:33,600 Climate works of exploration. And again we're not necessarily 191 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,300 proponents but we want to make sure that you know, when and 192 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,100 where removal happens is very thoughtful and that the 193 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:42,000 opportunities outweigh the challenges. 194 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,600 And so as many of your listeners probably know and you must also 195 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,600 know Ross, as we become more successful. 196 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,300 In removing carbon with technology and with trees and 197 00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:56,000 soils. Unfortunately, the ocean has 198 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,700 been storing up a surplus of O2 and it's going to give some of 199 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:03,000 that back and it's also suffering greatly from that 200 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,100 additional CO2, in the form of acidification, which harms 201 00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:10,800 shellfish, and other marine life, and inevitably will also 202 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,500 alter human livelihoods. Oh Jenna, you're supposed to be 203 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:19,300 The Optimist here, but I'm waiting and hopeful that the 204 00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:21,000 bind them. That, although the vitamin 205 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,600 station, I think has a very deep bench of talent, both on the 206 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,600 technological side and the natural side and the And we're 207 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,400 also hoping to see equal levels of ambition on the ocean side. 208 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:36,500 Hopefully, also around ocean removal. 209 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,900 Climate Works has been funding, the National Academy of Sciences 210 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:43,100 to complete a workshop on Ocean CDR. 211 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,000 And we're very much looking forward to that publication. 212 00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:50,200 As a way of calling attention to that important topic as well. 213 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,800 Yeah, I can't wait to read that. That's fascinating. 214 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:56,700 I think for a listeners, they probably know about the basics 215 00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:57,900 of blue carbon. We did what? 216 00:12:58,100 --> 00:13:00,800 An episode on whale carbon once upon a time. 217 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,200 Once we've also done mangroves, I think people know about kelp 218 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,000 farming and Marine permaculture but I think there are also some 219 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,900 new Industrial Technologies for ocean capture that are coming 220 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:13,500 down. The pike, is that right? 221 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,200 Well I like to think of them as natural because you know, the 222 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,000 way that the earth and the oceans have managed, the oceans 223 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,800 pH and I like to think of it as you know, the ocean is kind of 224 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,800 analogous to, you know. Blood pH because it's where 225 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,700 ultimately life all kind of came from but as rocks that are 226 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:39,300 highly basic I rode from rainfall they I'm 227 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:42,000 oversimplifying but you know they washed out to sea and 228 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,800 there's a very complex mixing process that takes place. 229 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,300 But that material buffers, the oceans in the same way that 230 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,200 taking a Tums helps to reduce a tummy ache. 231 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,000 When one has ingested too much lemonade or something. 232 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:01,500 And there are at least Least theoretically approaches to 233 00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:07,600 accelerate that process but in order to think about whether or 234 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,100 not those approaches are going to be safe, it's important that 235 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:17,100 academics in particular start to undertake any number of studies 236 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:21,300 to see what happens when you accelerate that buffering 237 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,700 process. That being said, I will say that 238 00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:27,200 many oyster hatcheries along the Pacific coast are ready. 239 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,000 Buffer, the water. Because otherwise the oyster 240 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,900 shells will dissolve and we're already seeing those effects of 241 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:36,200 acidification and the Dungeness crab populations along the west 242 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,700 coast of California. So the ocean is becoming 243 00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:43,300 increasingly acidic owing to increasing CO2 levels. 244 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,600 There are natural processes that can address that. 245 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,200 There are already some commercial processes, as I 246 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,000 mentioned, an oyster hatcheries that need to be done to apply to 247 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,200 that. So one can set up experiments 248 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:57,700 using oyster hatcheries for example, as a way of seeing 249 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,300 whether Whether there are any unexpected challenges to marine 250 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:07,300 life that occur from these processes, but as many listeners 251 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:10,700 and Ross, you also know, there are some companies that are, you 252 00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:15,900 know, going out and looking to Olivine approaches and that is 253 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:20,100 something that we're still several steps behind and funding 254 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:24,600 basic, academic research to look what happens to the Marine 255 00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:27,500 Aquatic Life. When you accelerate this natural 256 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:31,200 process, Fantastic. I know there's a lot of work to 257 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,100 be done, just on the basic research side on, so many things 258 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,200 are thin. Carbon removal, is there not an 259 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,100 analogous process happening in the oceans with direct are 260 00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:41,400 capture. Is there anyone working on large 261 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,400 machines? That separate carbon dioxide 262 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,800 from, I guess, ambient water. What even is the term for that? 263 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,700 Doesn't make sense in a knot? I've often wondered about that 264 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,400 is that direct are capture if it's from the sea and I know 265 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,900 Under the Sea fuels, act the Navy in particular had been 266 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,000 exploring that as an approach, I believe in a way that's kind of 267 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,300 analogous for the Long Haul aviation industry and thinking 268 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:08,300 about extracting the CO2 and converting it into a fuel. 269 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:12,800 And so, there's the sea fuels act, I am not directly, aware of 270 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,800 other approaches to directly remove CO2 from seawater, but 271 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,100 I'm certain that there are any number and listeners are 272 00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:23,100 probably aware of those, but that is an area that we haven't 273 00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:27,800 yet moved into in our ocean, CD our strategy, just because it's 274 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,800 hard. Enough to get our arms and Minds 275 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,300 around ocean. Alkalinity enhancement. 276 00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,300 There's a nice little video explainer on our website that 277 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:37,800 we've developed for that approach. 278 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:41,800 And we're also looking at the phenomena of growing additional 279 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,100 seaweed and the question. They're being, does it really 280 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:48,600 sink down to the bottom of the sea and store the carbon as it 281 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,300 needs to or does it dissipate and not achieve that effect? 282 00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:56,200 So we're looking at seaweed and ocean alkalinity enhancement, 283 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,000 first and foremost. And then Then we'll look to the 284 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,500 other ocean approaches as time and resources. 285 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:06,700 Permit is the jury still out for you about syncing kelp to the 286 00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:10,800 seafloor. You know, we have a very deep 287 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:17,500 bench of experts who are as one might expect divided on that 288 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:19,800 question. And some say, yes, it does sink 289 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,500 and permanently stay down there and and others are still 290 00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:26,300 wondering about the economics of how one does that cost 291 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:29,800 effectively. But it does science isn't in 292 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,200 question so much as the economics of it making sense. 293 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,100 I think, I think they're still very open questions around both 294 00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:40,000 and more funding research to get greater Clarity and to both. 295 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,000 Hmm and making the ocean more basic, as opposed to pulling CO2 296 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,700 out. Are you adding some basic 297 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:50,500 materials into the ocean, right? That's right. 298 00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:54,500 So you know I mean you know stripe is funding project Vesta 299 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,900 to look at the Olivine Beach approach and there. 300 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,500 We're we're just finding basic science using one of the green 301 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:04,400 sand beaches in Hawaii as well as natural upwelling in the 302 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,800 Santa Barbara channel. So we're not creating an 303 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,900 experimental intervention, we're just kind of using nature and 304 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:14,900 looking to see whether enhancing alkalinity has any effects on 305 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:19,000 music, azam's, in the sea. Hmm, and you're saying in the 306 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,500 binary ministrations, plans, overall oceans, having yet 307 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:26,000 featured prominently at least compared to a terrestrial or 308 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,500 industrial. That's right, and That's not 309 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:30,700 surprising. It's a very novel approach. 310 00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:34,700 We started off this session by talking about how for years 311 00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:36,900 feels like an eternity and carbon removal. 312 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:40,400 But I would say that, you know, with respect to oceans and the 313 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,000 need to think about removal there for most of us that's been 314 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,900 a, probably, a one and a half year Endeavor, that we've had 315 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:49,600 to, you know, stand up very quickly. 316 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,800 But, you know, the Administration has appointed 317 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,600 distinguished, Oregon, State University, professor and former 318 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,400 head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric, Aspheric 319 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,500 Administration Jane lubchenco to a prominent position. 320 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:04,400 So I think that's a very helpful start. 321 00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:09,700 My Labor's understanding of this this very well might be not true 322 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,600 and perhaps you can tell me if it is or not, but the ocean is a 323 00:19:13,608 --> 00:19:17,800 more Dynamic environment than a terrestrial one answer and is 324 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,700 thus potentially harder to measure and quantify. 325 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,400 Also the I'm coming from a place of working on soil for the last 326 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,000 couple years, and also not easy. So no, no, it's not. 327 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,500 Yeah. I completely agree with you. 328 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,100 The ocean is so incredibly Dynamic, you know, one could 329 00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:38,200 spend hundreds of millions of dollars on academic research and 330 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,900 still not subtle all of the questions that need to be 331 00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:43,400 settled. And that is beyond climate 332 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,500 philanthropies resource capabilities. 333 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:49,400 And something that we hope, you know, Congress and coming 334 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,900 appropriation Cycles will think about supporting. 335 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,400 Hmm, there's a chance that that alienates potentially more 336 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,000 conservative, otherwise, Guys supporters of something like 337 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,800 this or it gets enough buy-in from everyone because jobs and 338 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,900 dealing with long-standing issues could potentially be 339 00:20:05,900 --> 00:20:08,000 popular. How do you think this will play 340 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,800 out? I think if we're very thoughtful 341 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:18,100 about the political economy of carbon removal, that it creates 342 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:21,900 a win-win for everyone. And so on the natural side, 343 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:28,600 we've been very cautious in our grant-making to lead with Rural 344 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,900 resilience as opposed to climate or carbon removal because that's 345 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,700 the frame that land owners, land stewards tribal communities care 346 00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:40,900 about. They care about jobs and they 347 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:46,000 care about food security and they care about viable uses of 348 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,700 potentially uneconomic trees for Mass Timber. 349 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,300 And on the technological side, our grantees have done. 350 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,800 I think a masterful job of working in close partnership. 351 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:02,800 Ship with the steel workers and other unionized groups to think 352 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,200 about the potential job benefits of scaling, a director capture 353 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,100 industry for example. So again, I think if it's 354 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:14,300 approached in a thoughtful way it could be very powerful. 355 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:15,600 You know. One of the things that we like 356 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,500 to talk about in California is yes, you know. 357 00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:23,700 Let's keep fossil in the ground, but let's put those fossil 358 00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,500 workers to work. Taking carbon out of the air and 359 00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:28,400 putting it back in the ground. Where up Yawns. 360 00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:34,200 Hmm, you think that the focus on jobs and job seems like the top 361 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,200 level keyword. I'm picking up in a lot of this 362 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,400 B Administration chatter. That is maybe a unifying 363 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,900 approach to many of these things. 364 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:47,400 That's how I see it. I to me if it I spent a kind of 365 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,100 cut my teeth in Washington for many, many years working for 366 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,900 someone who now is back in the Biden, White House, who coined 367 00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:56,300 the popular clinton-era phrase, It's the economy stupid. 368 00:21:56,700 --> 00:22:00,300 And you know, I II still Ragin Cajun by chance. 369 00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:08,600 If people can't meet basic needs and have secure, well, 370 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,900 compensated employment, it's very very hard to get their 371 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:17,400 attention around any other top and pressing priorities 372 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,600 including climate. Hmm. 373 00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:24,800 Insofar as you can say have the experiences that you've had with 374 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,800 unions been supported of a transition length. 375 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:31,100 You know, on the director capture side. 376 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:35,700 Absolutely, I think our grantees have done a masterful work in 377 00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:40,300 creating Partnerships with various Union groups and I think 378 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,900 that that is unique because one of the challenges that we 379 00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:48,800 encountered a years ago with that round of stimulus is is 380 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,500 that historically at least the wind and solar jobs, solar 381 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:56,600 particular have been less unionized whereas if one were to 382 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,000 build out Director capture ecosystem. 383 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,600 Well would imagine that that steel workers and pipefitters 384 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,200 and other traditional unionized Industries would potentially 385 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,700 stand to benefit and there's a very nice rhodium study that 386 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,200 quantifies job creation potential. 387 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:19,400 There was a really super panel that took place yesterday. 388 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,200 I think by the Energy Futures initiative with former Energy, 389 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,300 Secretary Moniz and are and a deep deep bench of of Union and 390 00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:29,800 other. Representatives on the 391 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,400 Innovation agenda and so I'm hopeful. 392 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:37,500 What do you think are some of the lessons from might want to 393 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:41,800 put words in your mouth Jam but I think since Kyoto or 394 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,300 Inconvenient Truth or some of those earlier at least for my 395 00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,900 generation climate moments what went wrong during those times or 396 00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:52,400 wasn't successful enough such that we're here now and what 397 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,900 should we learn from that time period and moving forward. 398 00:23:56,300 --> 00:24:00,500 That's a great question and it's one that keeps me up at night. 399 00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:04,400 Having lived through those times as well as well as, you know 400 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,000 being at the epicenter of trying to create a an economy-wide 401 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,800 price on carbon and watching It. Ultimately that moment 402 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,700 evaporate. Yeah sorry I didn't ask you an 403 00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:17,100 easy one. Oh no. 404 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,600 I don't want someone asking me this in 20 years. 405 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:25,400 So I mean I you know, clearly at the end of the day, Say, it 406 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000 comes down to who pays who benefits. 407 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:31,900 I think carbon removal may be one of those opportunities where 408 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:36,900 you know the global North probably will need to bear, the 409 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:43,200 cost of creating the tools and rules to pull carbon back down 410 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:48,000 out of the atmosphere. And then deploy at much lower 411 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,400 cost. Since it bought, these 412 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,500 approaches down the cost curve, whether they're mrv for soil, or 413 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,100 the price of director capture So that they're available to the 414 00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:59,800 whole world. But also, I can Envision a 415 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,100 system where, you know, those who admitted most mitigate the 416 00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:08,200 most and also bear the share of removal. 417 00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:13,100 It has eternally sort of split over that question of who 418 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:17,100 admitted the most, and who is most responsible for both 419 00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,000 eliminating and mitigating emissions. 420 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,700 But now also removing them. Yeah. 421 00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:25,400 It's a hard question. It seems like the kind Common 422 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,100 Sense. Justice concern is that if you 423 00:25:28,108 --> 00:25:30,400 make a mess, you should be the one to clean it up, right? 424 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,600 Exactly, exactly. And I we've done okay, on, you 425 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,000 know, bringing dramatically down the cost of wind and solar in 426 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,400 part because our partners and China. 427 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,600 Did a very, very good job of driving down the cost of solar 428 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,400 panels, but here in the United States, and in Germany, we 429 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,700 adopted feed-in tariffs and renewable portfolio, standards 430 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,100 and I I'm very optimistic that we could do the same thing with 431 00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:01,600 carbon removal. And once we drive down the costs 432 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,500 of those rules and tools, it makes it much more palatable 433 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:10,800 for, you know the public sector to then Implement programs and 434 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,400 policies to bear the cost of that. 435 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,600 Hmm. My admittedly basic 436 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,900 understanding of the solar cost curve is that Germany's various 437 00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:24,400 types of subsidies really helped that go in addition to basic 438 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,400 research from the Us and elsewhere is that broadly would 439 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,900 happen. And you think something similar 440 00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:31,000 might happen for developing carbon removal Technologies in 441 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,800 the u.s., I hope so. I hope so. 442 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,500 Yeah, then with research like this being done funded by the 443 00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:43,100 government because it typically come out as non-proprietary, 444 00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:45,100 anyone can use it and build a business around it. 445 00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:48,100 Or is that understanding wrong? I think that understanding is 446 00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:49,800 correct. Okay. 447 00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,700 Yeah, you know I mean, the interesting thing and I don't 448 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:56,900 want to oversimplify this Julio Friedman, and John Wilcox, and 449 00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:59,500 others can do a much better job on this. 450 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:01,700 But I think, you know, one of the beauties of carbon removal 451 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:04,400 is that it's fairly low Tech, right? 452 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,700 I mean, you know, a director capture can be dry, sorban can 453 00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:10,300 be wet torben. There are advances that we can 454 00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:14,000 make on, you know, the sorbent materials and chemistry's. 455 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,500 We can certainly figure out much better ways to make them use, 456 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,400 less energy energetically, it takes a lot of power to pull 457 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,900 something. That's very diffuse in the 458 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:27,800 atmosphere into a filter where it's Trapped, but this isn't a 459 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,200 fusion reactor, right? And trees are very basic 460 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,200 technology. The soil issue is tough just 461 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,000 because soil the heterogeneity issues of soil bearing from 11 m 462 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,400 to the next. But these are all sort of 463 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,100 surmountable they're not wickedly hard problems. 464 00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:50,000 And so the point of that is that I'm you know, I'm not convinced 465 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,300 that there are that many breakthroughs that we need. 466 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:54,500 I think we mostly on the land side. 467 00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:58,300 They're going to be Very thorny governance, questions associated 468 00:27:58,300 --> 00:28:02,400 with the amount of trees. We need to reforest and a forest 469 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,100 and how that collides with other land uses. 470 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:11,700 Such as farming or indigenous dwellings on the technological 471 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,700 side, they're going to be governance issues as well to be 472 00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:19,600 sure but as I said you know, these are lower Tech relative to 473 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,600 some other types of applications. 474 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,900 And so I think that we can drive the cost down. 475 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:27,600 And primarily by scaling and learning by doing. 476 00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:31,800 You're making me feel so good right now with you're not being 477 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,800 a wicked problem or set of wicked problems, not that many 478 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,100 breakthroughs required. We have had so many doors shows 479 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:42,200 lately Jan, this is feeling like a breath of fresh air. 480 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,100 Thank you sure. Given that you've worked so much 481 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:50,900 on carbon pricing the hope of a carbon tax or a fee and 482 00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:54,900 dividend, was that this would be used the best of the market and 483 00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:58,400 Isis to get action on climate. It would be appealing to people 484 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,200 who are more right of Center. It would also have climate 485 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,900 impacts which would be conventionally left of center 486 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:06,700 but some people worried that it wouldn't have enough by in. 487 00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:09,700 There's not this focus on jobs and Equity that I think the by 488 00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:13,200 demonstration is really trying to get enough like emotional 489 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,100 attachment. Almost carbon pricing seems 490 00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:18,800 really thin and almost them that an economist would like, but 491 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,300 maybe the average person finds really dating and talking to 492 00:29:22,308 --> 00:29:26,300 people inside the enough. But Yeah, that's right wildly. 493 00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:27,700 But do you think what do you think about that? 494 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:31,500 Is that right? I think that carbon pricing is 495 00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:34,500 not in Vogue in the United States, to be sure. 496 00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:39,900 And I also believe that because Justice groups were not brought 497 00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:45,100 to the table or early on in some places, around discussions 498 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,800 pertaining to offsets that was a dreadful Dreadful missed 499 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,900 opportunity and it has cast a shadow over carbon pricing. 500 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,900 Efforts. I think there's also a sense 501 00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:02,600 that a carbon price is inadequate to drive deep 502 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,500 decarbonization. And I think what that means is 503 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:08,400 that if you have a carbon price, you have to set it very, very 504 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,900 high to incent the types of things that we need. 505 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:14,800 I mean, if you took away, 45 Q in the low carbon fuel standard, 506 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,200 you'd have to set a price of six hundred dollars a ton to do 507 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,400 deck, right? Carbon pricing has this 508 00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:21,900 Goldilocks problem. No one wants the price to go too 509 00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:23,500 high. No one was surprised to go too 510 00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:27,400 low so you have to bring in all these other quote-unquote 511 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,700 complementary measures. As we do in California, we have 512 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:34,300 a low carbon fuel standard. We have price on carbon, we have 513 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,600 any number of other approaches designed to incent deployment of 514 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,100 Technologies, such as UVS wind and solar. 515 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:47,400 So carbon pricing is not having a moment in the United States 516 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,600 but it is the EU ETS has just entered. 517 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,200 Its second phase, incorporating Lessons Learned From initial 518 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,100 design. Just, um, China's going doubling 519 00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:01,700 down on carbon pricing. And so, I'm not advocating for 520 00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:04,300 carbon pricing, but I think a challenge is that, in the 521 00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:08,200 absence of a price, I see the debate in the climate Community, 522 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,000 as devolving into madisonian infections. 523 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,600 And so we have these groups that champion one form of technology 524 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,900 or one form of removal approach over others. 525 00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:20,700 And it's just a waste of time and energy. 526 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:24,200 As far as I'm concerned, we need everything we have to stop 527 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,000 fighting each other. Each other over whether natural 528 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,200 is better than technological. Whether certain types of natural 529 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,600 removal approaches are superior to others. 530 00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:36,600 It's just such a waste. It's like, and it's a 531 00:31:36,608 --> 00:31:41,200 distraction from actually making progress on the climate 532 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,000 challenge. The clock is ticking. 533 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,300 Wow. Did you just complain about the 534 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,400 fights over industrial versus ecological carbon removal and 535 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,700 bring up The Federalist Papers in a single comment? 536 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,800 Are you just pandering to me / our audience? 537 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,900 Sorry, so I think that's what you lose when you have a price 538 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:05,000 on carbon because the price sort of make its technology agnostic. 539 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,500 And if you take that away then when you get into these endless 540 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:12,300 spats on Twitter and elsewhere we try to rise above it. 541 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,100 We started with soil for our first methodology with u.s. crop 542 00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:17,200 lands but we ultimately want to support carbon removal. 543 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,100 So long as it's ethical and credible and we want to support 544 00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:24,800 methodologies from many many, many different places. 545 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:26,800 I don't know. How should we be thinking about 546 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,600 that? Sounds like you're validating 547 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,000 our instincts, a little bit to stay out of some of these fights 548 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,000 because they do get quite nasty. And I'm not always sure how 549 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,600 productive they are exactly. I mean I just think we need 550 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,600 everything and the kitchen sink at this point. 551 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,100 I just really do think it is a waste of time and everyone's 552 00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:49,800 energy to argue about it and I think sometimes it may be masked 553 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,700 as a time and resource question. I think people worry that if too 554 00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:59,000 much Attention is paid to removal than mitigation will 555 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,900 suffer. If too much attention, is paid 556 00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:05,700 to Renewables than preserving the existing nuclear Fleet will 557 00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:09,000 suffer. And again, we need all of it. 558 00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:16,200 And I feel fairly optimistic that if we put our minds to 559 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,100 something such as a vaccine for covid, we can get it done in a 560 00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:24,400 fairly short time frame, we just demonstrated that and I feel the 561 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,200 same That should be the one great takeaway for the climate 562 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,100 challenge. You say that, but I saw him the 563 00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:34,000 other day that had a West Side. Story photo and said, when the 564 00:33:34,008 --> 00:33:36,000 moderna gang sees the Pfizer boys. 565 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:42,200 Something there is something about that though. 566 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,800 I think I usually attribute this more to humanity than to the 567 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,900 actual arena in which is this technology. 568 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:54,900 It's us, you know, we like very, very, very clever. 569 00:33:55,100 --> 00:34:00,000 And I always like to think back to, you know, 2001 and the bone. 570 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,000 It can be a tool. It can also be a weapon but, you 571 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,800 know, we figured out how to pick up and use it so that we could 572 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,600 eat. But then we also learn how to 573 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,100 whack each other over the head with it. 574 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:13,600 And I'm not a technological Optimist, I'm a humanist. 575 00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:16,699 Interesting, what do you think's going to happen in the next 576 00:34:16,699 --> 00:34:20,000 couple of years? Any wild irresponsible 577 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:25,800 predictions. You'd like to make Well in the 578 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:32,500 next couple of years, I feel as though we could go into 579 00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:38,300 International conversations with renewed ambition around the 580 00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:41,500 urgency of these problems. I've been in this environmental 581 00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:46,000 space as I said, almost 30 years and so when I started I focused 582 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,400 mostly on traditional pollution problems and things addressed, 583 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,400 by the Clean Air Act, the Safe, Drinking Water Act, Act toxics 584 00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:58,200 and The Endangered Species Act. And so I will just say that when 585 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,500 I was a child growing up in California, owing to DDT, I 586 00:35:01,508 --> 00:35:04,600 didn't know what a pelican looked like and because of 587 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,800 wailing, I never saw a gray whales and we put rules very 588 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,300 stringent rules and tools in place to bring back those 589 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:16,800 endangered. Populations and Pelicans are 590 00:35:16,808 --> 00:35:22,000 ubiquitous now and we're doing a pretty good job with the Condor 591 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,700 and Tribal communities in California are reintroducing 592 00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:27,800 them to their lands. And so, you know, I do feel like 593 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,200 when we, when we have a challenge, we typically know how 594 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,000 to face it. But the problem with climate is 595 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,900 that it's largely invisible, an indicator species is is a lot 596 00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:41,800 more visceral for people. The polar bear hasn't quite 597 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,700 worked as well as, you know, sort of the climate species. 598 00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:50,100 But we are now seeing directly. I think globally, the impacts of 599 00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:54,100 climate is having and even I'm sort of a staunch conservative 600 00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:56,300 communities, they need and I'll call it climate but they know 601 00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:58,000 something's happening to their soil. 602 00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:01,300 They know the nights are getting warmer buds aren't setting when 603 00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:03,300 they're supposed to their minds are flooding. 604 00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:07,900 And so, when we start to feel the problem, viscerally, we 605 00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:10,800 typically do act. I think that's right. 606 00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:11,700 I hope you are. Right. 607 00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:15,200 That, that time is coming. Where do you think climate 608 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,200 Works? Fits into this mix The beauty of 609 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:25,600 climate works is that, you know, we try to catalyze endowed 610 00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:30,400 philanthropies to you know, free more resources to tackle the 611 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,200 climate crisis and we do that in a variety of different ways, 612 00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:41,100 some of which focus on really thorny decarbonization 613 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:44,200 challenges around, you know, Transportation, we've made great 614 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,600 strides on V's, but what do we do about Freight? 615 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,800 What do we do about On call Aviation, what do we do about 616 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,000 shipping. So those are areas where my 617 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,900 talented colleagues helped to create awareness, develop 618 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,500 strategies to excite, philanthropies to put more 619 00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:06,000 resources into the space. And so, I think that we will 620 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,400 continue doing what we do. I feel uniquely privileged that 621 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,600 our funder Partners decided to enable climate Works, to create 622 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,300 a carbon dioxide removal strategy and build the field. 623 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,200 Old. I think that was incredibly 624 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,300 Visionary and courageous. And I feel so honored to to lead 625 00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:25,700 the work on the behalf of our partner philanthropies. 626 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,400 It's scary for some traditional climate funders to look at the 627 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,500 space because particularly in Europe, there's so much concern 628 00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:37,600 about moral hazard but for the newer funders that are coming 629 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,500 into this space new high net worth individuals, they really 630 00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:45,900 want to go to carbon removal because they see it as an under 631 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:50,600 resource area and You know, we help to Marshal data and other 632 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,100 statistics to help them understand, just how terribly 633 00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:56,500 under resource did is and grow new funders into the space. 634 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,700 So that's what we do. And that's how we look to 635 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,800 kick-start progress, carbon removal in the United States. 636 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,900 Certainly since the ipcc 1.5 degrees Celsius report pretty 637 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:10,500 mainstream. At this point, it feels like 638 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:13,600 here, but the people I know in Europe that I speak with they 639 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,500 have an entirely different experience. 640 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:20,600 You have any idea why that might be That's a great question and 641 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,600 you know, I think it's multifaceted, you know, on the 642 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:32,800 one hand they are not as technologically optimistic as we 643 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,600 are in the US. Perhaps I think that's one piece 644 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,300 of it. I also think that our colleagues 645 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:43,700 in Europe are very, very passionate about the role that 646 00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:47,500 natural solutions can play in carbon removal but they They 647 00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:53,400 worry that corporations and fossil producers in particular 648 00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:58,700 will use carbon removal to avoid, phasing out fossil 649 00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:02,300 extraction and they're deeply. Deeply concerned about that. 650 00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:07,200 Do you think those concerns are? Well, placed or overstated? 651 00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:13,800 Because I lack the unique vantage point of sitting in 652 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,800 Europe and observing industry Behavior. 653 00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:23,200 It's harder for me to say, I do know that at my partners who 654 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,100 operate any number of decks startups, this is no secret to 655 00:39:27,107 --> 00:39:31,100 them, but I would prefer to think about Aviation and other 656 00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:33,100 sectors scaling director capture. 657 00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:35,900 I would rather see, you know, grow houses, scale director 658 00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:40,200 capture then Director capture be used for enhanced oil recovery. 659 00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:43,600 I know that narrative was very popular with the previous 660 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,900 administration but it did a lot of damage. 661 00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:50,900 I think the perception of Deck with the base and I think that 662 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:53,500 the Europeans were looking at that very carefully and felt 663 00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:57,100 skeptical about that as well. Who exactly was that supposed to 664 00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:00,100 appeal to, I guess the oil and gas companies? 665 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:04,000 People Roughnecks, I guess they probably liked the eor carbon 666 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,700 removal angle. I try to be optimistic about 667 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:09,600 that one. Just thinking that, that making 668 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,500 money off of this is not the greatest place to end, but it 669 00:40:12,508 --> 00:40:16,300 might be an okay place to start. But then other people like David 670 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:19,200 Roberts was on the show and thought that you might extend 671 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,400 the lifespan of these industries in this Pursuit for an extra 672 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,400 decade or something. Yeah. 673 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,200 And that's I think that's the primary concern of our 674 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:34,700 colleagues across the pond. Yeah well then you yeah hmm I 675 00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:37,800 feel like people don't really like oil companies in the United 676 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,300 States very much either though, mortal. 677 00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:45,200 And, you know, I think if one were clever, you know, one could 678 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:50,300 construct a kind of a quid pro quo regulation, you know, that's 679 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:54,200 what the toxic substances Control Act banned substances 680 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,100 that were harmful to humans and, you know, driving diminished 681 00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:01,400 populations of animal species and sometimes it really does 682 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,700 take a carrot and a stick. And so, you know, I don't think 683 00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:08,700 it has to be moral hazard. I think that there would there 684 00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:13,700 could conceivably be ways where you incent Dak by putting a 685 00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:18,900 binding requirement on fossil extraction numbers and you you 686 00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:21,800 don't need to retrain an oil worker. 687 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,800 Who's been taking oil out of the ground too much? 688 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,400 I don't think and I maybe I'm getting way out of my depth here 689 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,500 to harness the same infrastructure to take CO2 and 690 00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:35,000 stick it back in the ground. Just not force does not use the 691 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,900 CO2 for cor back up. So are you favorably disposed 692 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:44,100 towards something like a carbon take back obligation on its 693 00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:48,000 relatively new to me, but it could be as simple as if you 694 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,900 mobilize a ton of carbon dioxide you must demobilize a ton of 695 00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:54,500 carbon dioxide. That's if you're going to use it 696 00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:56,600 at all dramatic. Yeah. 697 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,400 Yeah. He just like it say yes let's do 698 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,900 it. Well I you know I think about 699 00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:05,900 something you know a little bit more you know Draconian where 700 00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:10,500 it's Where you don't have license to continue to pollute, 701 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,200 but it's more the atonement of past emissions, right? 702 00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:19,600 So, it would be a carbon take back obligation but for your 703 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,300 historic emissions as well, right? 704 00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,400 Yeah. I mean, that Microsoft had in 705 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,000 that direction. That's right. 706 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,500 Imagine others will be to God. Some of those companies that are 707 00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:33,300 highly admitted, that sounds ownerís of that was on your 708 00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:34,700 balance sheet. It might just crush your 709 00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:35,800 company, though. I think. 710 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,500 Well, not if you could set up a system that would compensate you 711 00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:42,000 for doing it. Yeah, that's true. 712 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,400 People also complain about that too and that some of the 713 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,300 complaints are ill-founded but that they're going to make money 714 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:49,800 off of cleaning up their past mistakes. 715 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,100 Jan, I thought you cared about Justice. 716 00:42:51,100 --> 00:43:00,300 How could you support that? Well, I don't think necessarily 717 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,900 if the jobs go to Frontline communities and that activity is 718 00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:08,300 done in. To a way where it doesn't pose 719 00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:12,000 disproportionate risks to the workers in that sector that it 720 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,400 would necessarily be unjust, right? 721 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,500 If we took the entire sort of petrochemicals industry in 722 00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:23,800 Texas, and Louisiana, and overtime converted it from an 723 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:29,000 extractive production industry into one that takes CO2 out of 724 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,500 the atmosphere, turns it into products and where appropriate 725 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:35,300 locks it away and geologic. Formations, I don't necessarily 726 00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:37,500 see that as being being a bad thing. 727 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,700 I also keep seeing discussion of carbon removal and Frontline 728 00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:45,600 communities especially from carbon 180. 729 00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:47,900 This your brother come back on for an update to, it's been a 730 00:43:47,908 --> 00:43:49,900 while. Did you maybe some up? 731 00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:51,500 What? Exactly people mean by that? 732 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:54,500 And what the relation between these two things are our 733 00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:57,200 experience with the cabin traits estimate. 734 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,400 And with offsets, as I mentioned earlier, in our conversation, 735 00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:05,700 led us to understand that the more groups that are at the 736 00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:11,600 table At the early stage of a conversation about the climate 737 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,700 intervention, I think the greater likelihood that the 738 00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:18,300 intervention will actually translate into action. 739 00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:24,400 And so carbon 180 has been working with any number of 740 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,500 Frontline communities, to start to build those bridges and 741 00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:33,600 provide resources and multiple languages, so that we can 742 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:39,700 hopefully create more or voices in the carbon removal 743 00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:45,700 conversation and also build greater understanding of the 744 00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:48,600 perceived opportunities and challenges associated with 745 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,400 removal. I don't think I asked you that 746 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,200 many easy questions a day Jan know, you have it? 747 00:44:56,700 --> 00:44:59,100 That was a softball. That was a softball. 748 00:44:59,100 --> 00:45:00,800 Yeah. All right. 749 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,300 Yeah. We're very, we're very proud of 750 00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:07,200 carbon 180s work in that space because it started in 2019 and 751 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,600 wasn't just the work was well underway before the events of 752 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,400 last year. Certainly wise now, Carbone 80 753 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,400 has had a lot of leadership in the kinds of conversations that 754 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,600 happen within carbon removal. And I think they're a great 755 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,100 place for people to Oh, and catch up on that too because I 756 00:45:24,100 --> 00:45:28,800 think linking environmental justice and carbon removal. 757 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,300 I'm from before carbon 180 started, dealing with it. 758 00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:34,500 I don't know, I guess Holly Gene bucks been on that for a long 759 00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:38,000 time. I suppose she has and our 760 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,900 partner at climate Works whose with climate and land, use 761 00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:45,300 Alliance Tracy. John's has been making, I think 762 00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:50,500 very important grants to youth voices, we're planning a 763 00:45:50,508 --> 00:45:53,500 workshop. With representatives from 764 00:45:53,500 --> 00:46:00,100 indigenous communities and has been funding other groups 765 00:46:00,100 --> 00:46:02,600 worldwide. And with the point of bringing 766 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,900 other voices, into this dialogue, which is really 767 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,300 important. So I would say that it's 768 00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:12,300 imperative on the land conversation, particularly, as 769 00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:17,700 well as on the technological side, beyond the basic, pretty 770 00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:21,200 obvious concerns that carbon removal if not done correctly. 771 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,000 A could actively harm people. So set that one aside for a 772 00:46:25,008 --> 00:46:27,300 second. I think there's also a really 773 00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:31,200 big risk if carbon removal isn't done properly that, for 774 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,800 instance, I think it's safe to say that red plus and avoided 775 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,700 deforestation does not have a sterling reputation and at least 776 00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:42,600 part of it is because of some of the land use issues in the 777 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,500 global South and the interactions between indigenous 778 00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:49,500 peoples and those policies. And we don't want to Annette 779 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:53,300 could discredit for a long time. Quite a lot with, in carbon 780 00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:54,800 removal in that same kind of way. 781 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,600 Is that, is that a correct way of understanding this to yes. 782 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:04,000 When we first created this carbon removal portfolio, we 783 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,500 brought together any number of representatives from our Global 784 00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:15,400 Network and I remember hearing a very Vivid presentation from one 785 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:20,000 of our colleagues in Brazil and he said, look, we don't want to 786 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,300 be your Your sink. Whether it's, you know, for 787 00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:27,200 avoided emissions avoided, deforestation or a forestation 788 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:32,600 vis-à-vis, Carver removal, and that stuck with me ever since 789 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,900 because I realized the enormity of the challenge. 790 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:38,900 And I think people who have been working for years and years just 791 00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:42,600 on the avoided, deforestation peace with all of the 792 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:48,400 complexities around communities that rely on the forests and the 793 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,200 lands for their livelihood. It's a very tough challenge. 794 00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:55,800 Generally sitting in the global North to go to the global South 795 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,800 and tell people how their land can and can't be used. 796 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,300 It's a very thorny and vexing Challenge. 797 00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:05,900 And so one of the ways in which followed to be addresses, It Is 798 00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:09,800 by a very decentralized, Global Network of grant-making to get a 799 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,500 better understanding of needs on the ground, but that's highly 800 00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:15,800 imperfect. Well, sure. 801 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,700 And, and even if we take it out of that context, you know, look 802 00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:22,800 what's happening and Wales. Or farmers are being told that 803 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,200 they need to give up some of their agricultural land for 804 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,300 reforestation. It's not being well received 805 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:33,600 hmm, if those stakeholders were brought in earlier as you've 806 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,900 alluded to a few times, do you think we would have done things 807 00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:41,500 with them differently or we have chosen approaches that wouldn't 808 00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:45,400 have included them at all? If they were brought in earlier 809 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,100 we probably would have not chosen approaches that they 810 00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:51,600 would find. It would have taken a lot longer 811 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,200 to get to the solution because it would have been a lot more 812 00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:58,500 discussion but I don't think that any of these Solutions can 813 00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:05,300 be imposed by sort of Fiat or eminent domain right there will 814 00:49:05,300 --> 00:49:09,800 be a terrible backlash. Just look at the protest, the 815 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,400 the yellow vests protests in France, for instance, Yeah, that 816 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,200 did not seem really go very well. 817 00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:20,500 Yeah, I think so that validates. As far as I can tell the by the 818 00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:24,200 administration's thesis of focusing on jobs, getting by, in 819 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,600 having these conversations having a eminent place for 820 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,200 justice discussions in all of this. 821 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,900 So, it seems like some of these lessons have been learned. 822 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:38,500 It seems like it is, you know, we, there's always, there's 823 00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:43,500 always so much more room for learning for growth For 824 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:48,300 improvement as the events of last year and ongoing events are 825 00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:52,100 demonstrating. I think it takes 250 times of 826 00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:56,100 repeating, something for the average, human brain to learn 827 00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:58,400 something. So, progress is slow, and 828 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:03,900 sometimes we slip backwards, but I think broadly in looking at 829 00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:10,000 any number of advancements that we've made around Public Health 830 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,800 eliminating or driving down steep. 831 00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:15,900 Lee certain forms of disease nutrition. 832 00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:21,400 The overall trajectory is upward, that's a good place to 833 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,300 start wrapping up Jan, if someone wants to follow your 834 00:50:24,300 --> 00:50:27,000 work and that of climate Works, how should they do? 835 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,200 So they can go to our website. We have a landing page on the 836 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,900 carbon dioxide removal program where we post blogs grantee 837 00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:42,600 reports and you know other pithy items and and on occasion we 838 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,300 also Host, webinars and other Outreach activities. 839 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,800 Pretty nice. Well, thanks so much for being 840 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:51,800 here with me. I'm so happy that we have your 841 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:56,800 brain working on carbon and I'm so happy that we have yours. 842 00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,500 Thank you for the very thoughtful questions. 843 00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:02,200 I really appreciate it. I very much enjoyed our 844 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,300 conversation. Me too. 845 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,900 If you're listening and you also enjoyed it, please give us a 846 00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:09,700 great rating and review on iTunes or apple podcasts. 847 00:51:09,700 --> 00:51:11,900 It means a lot to us. Helps us get conversations like 848 00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:14,100 this to a greater audience. Audience and thank you so much 849 00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:21,100 for listening. Thank you so much for listening. 850 00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:23,500 If you like the show, please rate and review it in apple 851 00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:26,800 podcast and or Stitcher. It really helps us a lot to get 852 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,500 this content to a wider audience. 853 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,100 If you think what we're doing is useful, interesting fun. 854 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,600 Hopefully, all three, we certainly appreciate your rating 855 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,700 and review. You can keep up with Nori at nor 856 00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:38,400 e.com, where there is a newsletter that's nor e.com. 857 00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:41,700 Subscribe, there's podcast. There's a whole bunch else or 858 00:51:41,700 --> 00:51:44,700 you can send us an email at Podcast at nor e.com. 859 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,700 We are also now on patreon at patreon.com slash Nori podcasts, 860 00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:51,700 if you'd like more content engagement and community and 861 00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:53,400 thank you so much for your support.