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You're listening to the 
reversing climate change, 

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podcast by the team at Nori. 
The carbon removal Marketplace. 

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This is a show about the 
innovators and entrepreneurs 

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developing solutions to climate 
change. 

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Hello and welcome to the 
reversing climate change 

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podcast. 
I'm Ross Kenyan I'm the creative

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editor at Nori's carbon removal 
Marketplace. 

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Today I have with me, Theresa 
Carey to reset your a senior 

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staff writer at free think. 
And before becoming a journalist

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I saw that you have as a former 
career, a previous career as a 

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professional Mariner and US 
Coast Guard. 

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Licensed Captain, that's a cool 
sentence to say. 

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Yes. 
Yep, that's right. 

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That's what I used to do. 
I feel like I'm being out on the

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water on the ocean. 
So much is really what motivated

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me to become a science 
journalist and take an interest 

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in learning more about our 
planet. 

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Yeah, I can see some of the ways
that would naturally occur and 

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we're going to talk about your 
articles. 

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You've written a number of 
things for free think that 

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relate to climate change related
to carbon removal and I want to 

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dig into that but I want to 
unpack a little bit of what you 

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just said. 
How did being a professional 

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Mariner lead you to science 
communication to journalism to 

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your current career? 
Well, my bachelor's degree is an

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environmental science, so that's
where I started. 

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And I think at the time though I
chose it because I Doing well in

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those classes and and you know, 
I enjoyed it but then I went on 

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to become a captain and I did 
that for quite a long time. 

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It's really challenging for 
women to be captains and I 

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worked really hard at it and I 
had made a lot of progress in 

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that industry and I'm still 
doing a little bit with that 

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industry. 
And I still really enjoy it very

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much, but it was actually a trip
sailing Expedition that I did. 

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The goal of the whole trip was 
to sail as far north as we could

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to see an iceberg. 
It turns out you don't have to 

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say all so far north to see an 
iceberg. 

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But what happened that year or 
two things happened? 

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One was production company 
wanted to make a film about this

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journey and so suddenly, I was 
this odd reality movie 

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personality which was very 
uncomfortable. 

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But the other thing that 
happened was the Petermann Ice 

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Island. 
Which was the largest Greenland 

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Iceberg on record broke from 
Greenland and was set adrift in 

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the currents. 
And so suddenly our goal was to 

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see the Petermann Ice Island. 
This historic Iceberg, and we 

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did get to see it or at least 
fragments of it. 

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It was massive. 
And just along the way, I talked

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to scientists, I talked to 
fisherman my talk to people in 

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local communities and small, 
Nova Scotia towns and 

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Newfoundland towns, and just 
learned more about their 

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connection to the environment, 
and to the ice and, and all of 

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that. 
And it was very that part of the

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journey, was really exciting for
me. 

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I'm sorry, I'm just stung With 
Envy. 

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How did I end up having horrible
landlubber career? 

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No, no, don't be, don't be that 
way. 

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I mean, it's, it's definitely a 
it was a different life, you 

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know. 
I lived on boats for a long time

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and now, I have my first house. 
My first couch, my first readily

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available everyday hot shower if
I want, and it's just a 

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different life and it's, you 
know, there's a give-and-take to

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everything. 
So How long were you selling? 

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Well, a lady never reveals her 
age and so that's not exactly 

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what I'm asking. 
I mean but you know, my age, if 

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I told you how I've been feeling
actually, since I was eight 

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years old, I'll say that because
I was eight years old and I 

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became a captain when I was 21. 
So I've been feeling a long time

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and I've been working my very 
first job. 

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Well, my first job was as a 
florist but my first job when I 

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graduated high school was as a 
sailor. 

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And every job after that pretty 
Which when I was in college in 

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the summer, I would sail for 
work and and then after I 

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graduated, I just went into 
boats. 

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So long time, all sorts of 
boats, the reason I ask is, have

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you been sailing long enough to 
notice climate changes with how 

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you've interacted with your 
sailing work? 

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We had John kretschmer on. 
He's fantastic. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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I love John's Brooks. 
And I love having him on, but we

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talked a lot about that about. 
Out the process of going to 

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Bermuda and the window shrinking
of hurricane season. 

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Concerns about trade winds, may 
be weakening or changing in some

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ways. 
Have you noticed anything like 

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that on your end? 
I haven't. 

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Sailed as much as John, I have 
not noticed things like that. 

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I guess I've been sailing in 
Maine, a lot and I'm oddly 

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starting to see sharks. 
I don't I'd never seen him 

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before until like two years ago 
and mean Had recently a shark 

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attack which is very. 
I mean, I've never heard of that

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happening. 
And when I kind of came up and 

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as a sailor in Maine, the older 
Sailors, you learn a lot from 

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the older Sailors and they would
say, oh, there's no sharks in 

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Maine at the water's too cold. 
Well, I know that's not 

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necessarily true but I believed 
at the time and I never saw them

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and and recently I have so it I 
don't know if that's an example 

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of the changing climate, or if 
it's just I'm noticing things, I

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don't know. 
Yeah. 

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Sharks in Maine is being 
unusual. 

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I imagine there's probably more 
people in Maine than previously.

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I know people who are not 
mainers, who have yet moved to 

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Maine. 
And I can only imagine mainers 

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do not like this very much, but 
is it possible? 

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It's more people in the water or
or do you actually think it is a

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temperature thing? 
Even if the water is a little 

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bit, warmer from climate change,
it's still wicked cold. 

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And people don't spend a lot of 
time in the water up. 

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Here we go for a dip. 
We don't go for a swim, okay? 

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It's really cold. 
That's a fun piece of anecdotal 

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evidence though. 
That now they have, there's a 

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shark attacks and there's being 
able to see sharks. 

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Do you mean like though? 
They're able to see their Dorsal

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fins? 
And poking out or yeah, right at

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the surface that I mean II don't
scuba dive. 

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Very often. 
And so, the only time I see them

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here in maintenance at the 
surface, I'm trying to think if 

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there's other examples, I mean, 
there must be other changes. 

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The Northwest Passage has 
sellable now. 

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Oh yeah boats are going through 
there a lot now and you couldn't

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get through there before. 
Have you ever made it up that 

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far? 
Baffin Bay and heading up or 

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not? 
Not yet, not that. 

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So far. 
No Newfoundland. 

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The top of Newfoundland is 
pretty much how far I've gone. 

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Cool. 
Okay, well, I'm always 

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interested because I'm just want
to be sailor, sitting here 

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reading, John's books reading 
Paul through, you know, living 

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that quarantine travel fantasy 
life. 

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So, you know, if you hear of any
else any other things like that,

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I find that to be really 
fascinating. 

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But in any case we can get into 
the meat of what you're 

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covering. 
Here. 

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So you ended up ad free. 
Think everything has a really, 

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distinct editorial voice and 
Vibe about it. 

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How would you describe for you 
think and you're beat there? 

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Rethink everything. 
We strive to tell stories that 

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have a solution or someone 
working on a solution. 

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It doesn't necessarily even have
to be a proven solution. 

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Very often, it's not but just 
instead of focusing on the Doom 

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and Gloom and the problems that 
are happening in the world, we 

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try to focus on the solution. 
Now of course any solution is 

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going to be to a problem. 
So therefore in a story I would 

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write out also talked about the 
problem but A story We aim to 

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tell a solution and generally 
speaking. 

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It's very focused, very 
interested in technology not 

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exclusively though. 
Yassir. 

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Some of the articles that I see 
that you've written recently, 

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and I think a listener should 
get a strong sense of both a 

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free-thinking also, you Teresa. 
So here to go metal, eating 

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trees, could clean up abandoned 
mines? 

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You see, we diet could eliminate
most of cows Greenhouse 

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emissions can see we'd Save the 
Planet, autonomous trash eating 

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boats, clean up, water 
pollution. 

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So there's there's a theme 
running through that and it 

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sounds like You've identified 
solutions to problems or, you 

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know, sort of outlandish 
solutions, that people are 

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working on two gigantic 
problems. 

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Mhm, I would say, outlandish is 
interesting because it depends 

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on perspective. 
When I first went, if I were, if

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I had never worked at free 
thinking, I was reading these 

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articles, I would say, well 
that's pretty crazy and these 

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far-fetched wild ideas, but 
having worked at free think and 

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having to tell a new story every
day and talk to the people that 

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are doing this, there's just a 
lot of amazing stuff going on. 

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On in this world and it doesn't 
seem too far-fetched now it's 

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it's really interesting what 
people can do and what people 

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are coming up with and how 
outside of the box people are 

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thinking. 
Yeah I suppose you know since 

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these are in like bench scale 
and being tested people, trying 

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to figure this out, it sounds 
magical and kind of strange but 

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I suppose if we did this 10 
years from now many of these 

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things would be you know this is
an industrial scale deployment 

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and you have other things you be
covering which Would sound 

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outlandish? 
So felt like maybe if we ask the

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people in the past are we going 
to be able to put satellites in 

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orbit? 
Or are we going to be able to 

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genetically modify things or 
change the planet? 

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So much that it warms it up a 
little bit? 

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People be like no that's crazy, 
it's impossible and now we're 

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doing it. 
How do you deal with the risk of

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false positives and covering a 
story where you're like? 

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Oh, that was to exuberant. 
There's nothing behind it. 

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It was a bit flashy and caught 
our eye, but looks like there's 

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not a lot of meat on those 
bones. 

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So I sometimes have a hard time 
spotting stories like that if 

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it's if it's too, if it hasn't 
really been tested or studied 

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and knowing that, yes, this is 
this is working how its intended

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to. 
I mean, I try to say that in the

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article like here are here are 
the risks are here the 

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challenges. 
They're still working with our, 

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here's the unknowns, but 
sometimes that's hard to 

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identify, I got a great editor, 
Dan who helps out a lot with 

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that. 
And just I try to ask a lot of 

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questions from From from other 
people in that in that field of 

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study to see what their 
perspectives are. 

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And you know I learn a lot from 
people that way you have a damn 

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beer. 
Yeah yeah. 

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And Dan for a long time that guy
is a very sophisticated BS 

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detector. 
I would not want to try to sneak

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something by that guy. 
Yeah, I would agree. 

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We don't always agree on things 
but I would say that every time 

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he edits one of my articles And 
poses a challenge for me, it 

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always improves the article in 
the end. 

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That's good. 
It's good to have a relationship

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with an editor like that. 
I've, I've heard less happy 

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relationships with editors so 
why you had those 20? 

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So everybody has that. 
Hmm. 

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Yeah. 
You've written for a number of 

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other Publications to do you 
think that the beat you're 

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covering now has continuity with
those other Publications or do 

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you like to write about other 
things too? 

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So my training is in science 
journalism. 

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So that's a pretty broad beat, 
but I think I've written like to

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politics stories and to Art 
stories and hundreds of science 

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ones. 
And then my personal interest is

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in environment. 
And then recently, because of my

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bachelor's degree and then 
recently genetics. 

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And so, if I'm trying to focus 
my beat down from this broad 

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science beat to something more 
specific, it's now honing in on 

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environment and genetics. 
Attics. 

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And then even more recently, 
I've become more interested in 

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climate and carbon and climate 
technology and Solutions. 

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In that respect, there's an 
entire beat just for carbon 

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removal and then amount of 
startups coming out. 

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I can't even keep up with them 
anymore. 

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I need your help Teresa, please 
start covering the. 

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I know I need help. 
I need your help to its to tell 

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00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:37,600
me ideas of look into because 
you know every time I hear one 

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00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,100
of these ideas like like you 
mentioned the two articles I 

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00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:44,700
wrote The kelp forest in the 
genetically, modified trees. 

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00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:49,700
And I'm working on a story now, 
about sand and mineral erosion. 

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That could lead to carbon 
sequestration. 

233
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,700
It's just pretty wild. 
It's pretty amazing. 

234
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,500
And so it's exciting to learn 
about. 

235
00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:58,300
I think that's one of my 
favorite things about this job 

236
00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:00,200
is that I get to learn all these
cool things. 

237
00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,500
It is cool. 
Where are you working on a story

238
00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:04,900
about Olivine? 
And yes, weathering. 

239
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:11,100
See, I just need to listen to 
more of your podcasts I guess. 

240
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:12,600
Yes, what did you do a podcast 
on it? 

241
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,600
Actually I should I should find 
that one if you did. 

242
00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:21,200
Yeah, we've done some. 
We've had project Vesta on a few

243
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,000
times. 
I know there's other folks 

244
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,600
working on enhanced weather and 
we've had great Dipple on from 

245
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:28,800
University of British. 
Columbia has a lot of the it's 

246
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,400
like, yeah, science behind it. 
So yeah, both the science and 

247
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,800
the deployment side, we've done 
episodes. 

248
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There's a lot to cover the, it's
actually really hard to know and

249
00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:43,300
I also Have a hard time 
sometimes sniffing out exactly 

250
00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:46,200
what is legit versus what? 
Sounds good. 

251
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,400
It's feel like I need. 
I need people on my team with 

252
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,600
better chops on that. 
Don't want it. 

253
00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:53,400
I don't want to be overly 
exuberant either. 

254
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,700
I need a damn beer. 
Basically dry, run everything by

255
00:13:55,700 --> 00:14:00,700
Dan beer, I think he's pretty 
busy. 

256
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:02,700
Okay. 
Sorry. 

257
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,800
I'm not sure how much it doesn't
have to edit out without 

258
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,800
embarrassing, Dan. 
I think we can embarrass them a 

259
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,500
little bit more into Be okay. 
Okay, okay, that's, that's good.

260
00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:16,100
Yeah, I saw this, this article 
actually, we talked about it, a 

261
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:18,500
lot when it came out your 
article. 

262
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:21,400
Should we genetically engineer 
carbon hungry trees? 

263
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,400
Definitely a captivating title. 
Why don't we dig into this a 

264
00:14:25,408 --> 00:14:27,800
little bit and talk about some 
of the details here? 

265
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:33,000
What is happening in this story?
Well, I think I just started 

266
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,400
with that question. 
Should we could we genetically 

267
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,100
engineer trees that soak up more
carbon and just started emailing

268
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:41,700
people who are looking into this
and asking them how it works. 

269
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,700
One of the consistent things 
that everybody says is that, you

270
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:48,100
know, when we first learned 
about climate change, I remember

271
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:51,500
that John Denver's on plant a 
tree and you'll save for your 

272
00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:54,700
tomorrow or something like that 
to clean the air that kind of 

273
00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:57,900
rings in my head all the time 
because it all comes back to the

274
00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:01,800
forest and that the rainforest 
and how it sequester's so much 

275
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,000
carbon and it does that because 
it's an old growth forest. 

276
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,000
The old growth forest 
sequester's way more carbon than

277
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,700
a new tree. 
I think it's something like it's

278
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,200
in that article but I think it's
about fifty percent of all the 

279
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,200
carbon that sequestered and 
trees is in 1% of the of the 

280
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,600
trees, which is old growth and 
so it takes a really long time 

281
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,600
for a tree to become an 
old-growth tree. 

282
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,600
The idea with these genetically 
modified trees is that they'll 

283
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,500
grow faster will become like an 
old growth tree. 

284
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:34,600
And twenty years or 50 years and
sequester just hunt a ton of 

285
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,300
carbon. 
So that's one way that they're 

286
00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:40,600
trying to store more carbon and 
trees but it also has other 

287
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,900
they're also trying other things
too like deeper Roots because if

288
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:48,900
the route you know if a tree 
gets chopped down or it burns in

289
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:53,900
a fire or dies from an insect 
infestation and it falls to the 

290
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:56,800
ground and rots. 
Then all that carbon is released

291
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,200
back into the atmosphere. 
So all the sequestering that had

292
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,600
happened. 
And is, you know, now, back in 

293
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,800
the atmosphere, all the carbon 
and but the roots will stay 

294
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,800
buried, even with a forest fire,
even with insect infestation, 

295
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,400
The Roots will stay buried. 
And so, another thing that 

296
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,700
they're looking into is making 
the roots go deeper and longer 

297
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:20,500
and by doing so they can 
sequester more carbon deep in 

298
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:25,100
the ground, and they're doing 
that with trees and crops. 

299
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:27,400
So, I thought that was 
interesting. 

300
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,500
And then there's actually a 
third way, which really seems 

301
00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:36,300
Very futuristic to me that the 
idea that these trees, could 

302
00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:39,900
they modify the trees to make 
the carbon stored in the wood 

303
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:41,700
and the wood is harder and 
stronger. 

304
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:46,500
So it's a very good for building
material, Ultra, strong wood, 

305
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,900
and then the other one is that 
it can they can transfer like 

306
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:54,500
the biological Pathways from 
corals into the trees and then 

307
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:57,800
the trees will form like a 
calcium carbonate, which they 

308
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,600
can Harvest from the trees and 
used as a feedstock. 

309
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:04,300
Top four plastic, which that 
seems pretty wild to me. 

310
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,700
I imagine like a treat, you 
know, the Money Trees dollar 

311
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:11,300
bills grow on trees. 
I imagine, like, bricks of 

312
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:14,200
plastic growing on trees, which 
I know is not how it looks. 

313
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,900
But the in my head that's how it
looks. 

314
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,300
I read this. 
I had to reread this sentence or

315
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:21,099
paragraph a couple times. 
Hmm. 

316
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,700
Where does the calcium carbonate
come from? 

317
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:25,700
How do they harvest it? 
Do they know yet? 

318
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:30,200
So I got two answers that 
question, and it's not entirely 

319
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,500
clear for me, but one answer, 
was it forms like a powder and 

320
00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:37,300
it falls to the ground and they 
can collect it actually. 

321
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,900
That's the only answer, I got a 
powder or a larger, you know, 

322
00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:44,600
material that falls to the 
ground and they can collect it. 

323
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,900
Okay, that one sounds. 
So remarkably get that you have 

324
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:52,100
to admit. 
That's outlandish. 

325
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,600
Yes, I do. 
I'm skeptical about that one 

326
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,000
like the making trees grow 
faster. 

327
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,800
I really believe science is, 
capable of doing that and deeper

328
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,100
Roots. 
Yes, yes. 

329
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:07,700
But the other one, I'm not 
betting on it yet, but it made 

330
00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:09,100
it all. 
So, you know, in some ways makes

331
00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:14,000
sense because the person I spoke
to Charles delisi, he said that 

332
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,100
corals are capable By doing 
this, they make a calcium 

333
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:17,800
carbonate. 
So if they're, if they can 

334
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,100
transfer, the biological 
Pathways from the corals then, 

335
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:21,700
the trees should be able to do 
this too. 

336
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,200
This is where I wanted this to 
go as well. 

337
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:31,300
So with crisper transgenic 
modification, your oftentimes 

338
00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:35,600
taking a gene from an unrelated 
or very Loosely related to 

339
00:18:35,608 --> 00:18:38,100
organism and injecting it into a
new genome. 

340
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:43,600
So I'm Coral gene into a tree 
genome actually one of the 

341
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,900
claims in here that maybe is a 
good place to start. 

342
00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:48,500
Is that some of the scientists 
were speaking with we're saying 

343
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:53,900
that conventional hybridization 
and plant breeding Actually can 

344
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:59,100
be riskier in some ways. 
Then transgenic modification. 

345
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:02,600
I find that sort of a strange 
thought, but there's probably a 

346
00:19:02,608 --> 00:19:04,500
logic to it. 
Why do you think that is? 

347
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:09,700
I think that there's a lot of 
resistance to genetically, 

348
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:13,700
modify it especially genetically
modified crops as being 

349
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:17,200
unhealthy or these alien crops 
that we shouldn't be eating. 

350
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,100
And so there's this public 
perception of genetically, 

351
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:24,500
modified plants. 
And It doesn't entirely match 

352
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:27,700
the scientific consensus about 
these plants which most 

353
00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:30,100
scientists would say know 
they're safe, it's fine for eat 

354
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:32,100
them. 
It's not what you think if 

355
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:37,400
they're not alien plants and I 
talked to scientists who was 

356
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,000
working with the America still 
is working with the American 

357
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,000
chestnut, William Powell. 
And he was working to 

358
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,200
genetically, modify the chestnut
to basically bring it back. 

359
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:53,200
Not for carbon sequestration but
his work was it was The chestnut

360
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,300
was basically wiped out from 
this fungus, but a lot of the 

361
00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,500
routes remained, and if they try
to sprout a new tree, they would

362
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:01,000
be wiped out by the fungus 
again. 

363
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,300
So he's creating this 
genetically modified American 

364
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:06,800
chestnut, that is resistant to 
this fungus. 

365
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,900
So it can grow and survive and 
doing that with genetic 

366
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:13,500
engineering. 
He explained to me that the 

367
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:16,400
old-fashioned way the hybrid 
breeding or the interbreeding 

368
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,200
has more unintended 
consequences, it has has more 

369
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,600
things that you can't control. 
Role versus using crispr, you 

370
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,800
can change tiny things at a 
time. 

371
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,700
You can change one gene at a 
time and see what happens, the 

372
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:33,000
hybrid reading. 
There's all these other genes 

373
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,300
that are being changed that are 
out of their control just by 

374
00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:37,900
chance. 
And so that's why there's less 

375
00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:39,900
risk with the high-tech 
solution. 

376
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,300
It's not as alien even though 
the hybrid breeding seems like a

377
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:47,500
natural process and it is, but 
it has more unintended 

378
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:49,600
consequences. 
Is that is that how he explained

379
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:50,900
it to me? 
And I really appreciate it as 

380
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:55,000
explanation just because I'm I'm
really aware of the genetically 

381
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,900
modified, the public perception,
the resistance to it. 

382
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:01,600
And so I'd like to is 
explanation because now it gives

383
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,600
me a way to understand it and 
explain it to other people. 

384
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,400
I think, That is a really 
fascinating point. 

385
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:15,600
I think some of the concerns 
about GMOs, I think are a bit. 

386
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:20,300
Yeah, not science-based. 
But there's a concern about like

387
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,500
an influence on one's body and 
alien organism that we don't 

388
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:27,200
know a lot about it's unnatural 
and therefore bad. 

389
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:30,900
And you might say well those 
concerns are overblown, some of 

390
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:33,800
the more sophisticated concerns.
I see about GMOs are things like

391
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,500
their bread too. 
Resist certain types of 

392
00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:40,500
pesticides and they're used to, 
to scale monoculture 

393
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,800
agriculture, which is not really
good for the planet, not good 

394
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,200
for the environment. 
The pesticides aren't really 

395
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,500
good for us to consume in many 
cases either so I don't know. 

396
00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:53,000
Is there a distinction being 
made there? 

397
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,800
Or is it more on that first 
concern? 

398
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,800
Where much of the debate is 
happening? 

399
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,800
No, I think that's good. 
I feel like the debate isn't it 

400
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,500
isn't a strong of a debate in 
the scientific Community as it 

401
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:06,200
is in the public eye. 
The public. 

402
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,600
And so I think that when people 
talk about it, they say oh it 

403
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,600
needs to be not, I need to eat 
plants that are not genetically 

404
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,900
modified and you ask them, why? 
And I've never hurt really hurt 

405
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:22,600
a good understanding or 
explanation of why just like 

406
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,700
people say I need to eat plants 
that are only organic because 

407
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:27,400
it's healthier. 
Okay. 

408
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,800
Why? 
I mean when it comes down to it,

409
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,700
what pesticides are being 
sprayed on that crap? 

410
00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:34,600
Like yes certainly there are a 
lot of pesticides that are not 

411
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,900
healthy for us too. 
I eat. 

412
00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:38,300
But there are some that are also
harmless that's not that big a 

413
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:42,000
deal and some plants use less 
pesticides and others to grow. 

414
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,200
And so when you really dig down 
into it, there's a depth of 

415
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,500
understanding that I just don't 
think is quite reached the 

416
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,800
public yet. 
And that's kind of sounds mean, 

417
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,600
but I feel like I'm just coming 
into this understanding to and I

418
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,500
read about this every day. 
So I need to be humble about it 

419
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:57,800
as well. 
I just think that. 

420
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,500
Yeah, the public perception is 
exactly like you said, is this 

421
00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:04,000
alien plant? 
It's not how it was it supposed 

422
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,400
to be there for, it's not But 
I'm sure that can happen. 

423
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,000
But I'm sure there's a lot of 
GMO plants that are just fine. 

424
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,200
Yeah. 
I think some of it and so far as

425
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,600
we're talking about pesticide 
and its relation to the GMOs, I 

426
00:23:17,608 --> 00:23:21,800
know, some some plants are 
relatively fine to eat 

427
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,000
conventional agriculture. 
I think bananas have a pretty 

428
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,900
thick skin. 
I'm told. 

429
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:28,800
That's pretty safe. 
You don't want to do that with 

430
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,800
strawberries. 
You like you, like you want 

431
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,200
organic strawberries. 
In my understanding I heard the 

432
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,700
same. 
Nothing about grapes either, 

433
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,700
wash them really really well or 
always buy the organic which are

434
00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:41,700
organic grapes. 
Are wicked expensive. 

435
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:46,900
We had Paul Greenberg on 
recently and but one of his 

436
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:50,100
lines from one of his fish books
is that the story around tuna 

437
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:52,800
and mercury became so 
simplified, it was just tuna. 

438
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,500
Bad mercury, bad. 
Because the American buying 

439
00:23:56,500 --> 00:24:00,400
public Can Only Hold like one 
simple piece of advice and their

440
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,600
head at a given moment. 
Hmm. 

441
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,300
And even what we just talked 
about with regard to pesticide 

442
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:09,900
There are GMOs I think is 
already like beyond the Nuance 

443
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:11,700
threshold. 
That is available. 

444
00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:14,700
Hmm. 
Yeah, we're all like that 

445
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:16,500
though. 
And not I'm a science journalist

446
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:19,400
and I have I feel like like I 
said, I'm in this, I'm reading 

447
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,800
this all the time, but I have 
these habits that I follow that,

448
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,500
make no logical sense to me 
anymore, like I read something 

449
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:31,300
somewhere about tomatoes in cans
reacting with the can. 

450
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:35,200
And so I only buy box Tomatoes 
or fresh tomatoes obviously but 

451
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,700
boss Boxed tomatoes. 
And now, it's just become a 

452
00:24:37,708 --> 00:24:39,600
habit, and I couldn't tell you 
at all, why? 

453
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,700
Although I hope there's a very 
good reason for it, but I don't 

454
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:47,800
remember what it was. 
I have so often started stories 

455
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,600
in my personal life and probably
on the podcast to like I read 

456
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,400
something. 
And when I say, I read 

457
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,500
something, like I saw a headline
that I didn't further 

458
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,600
investigate but nobody repeat 
now. 

459
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,500
Yes and, you know, my goal is to
come on this podcast and not 

460
00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:02,300
make a fool of myself. 
I probably shouldn't have said 

461
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:05,100
the Tomato story but we all have
a tomato story. 

462
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:08,400
So That's okay. 
I doubled down on it for you so 

463
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,300
it's okay. 
Yeah. 

464
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:12,100
So one of the questions I had 
about this to that, I'd be 

465
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:14,200
curious to ask, maybe you don't 
have the answer to this and 

466
00:25:14,208 --> 00:25:18,700
maybe this is a future podcast. 
But I know that the microbiome 

467
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:23,200
that interact with Flora, for 
instance, I know, for Oaks and 

468
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,200
truffles, the relationship 
between these two organisms. 

469
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,100
I don't know that it's super 
well understood it seems very 

470
00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,700
specific when truffles don't 
appear, I think sometimes it's 

471
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,900
puzzling to people who are even 
experts being like, Why didn't 

472
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:38,400
that work? 
Here, Works 50 feet over there 

473
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:42,000
and I wonder about making these 
small transgenic changes. 

474
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:46,800
Is it possible at altars some of
these more or less understood 

475
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,300
microbiotic relationships. 
That were just barely starting 

476
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:53,400
to dive into, I think that's 
totally possible. 

477
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,200
And I actually talked to some of
the scientists about this. 

478
00:25:56,900 --> 00:26:00,900
They called those unknown knock 
on consequences. 

479
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:06,700
So you know, you changed the 
tree and then by Also the local 

480
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:10,100
ecosystem and the truffles then 
therefore are impacted somehow 

481
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,900
and that's totally possible. 
And so, in order for these 

482
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:15,600
trees, these genetically 
modified trees to be approved to

483
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,500
be in the wild, they have to 
look into all of that. 

484
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:23,500
And they have to study how the 
tree impacts the ecosystem and 

485
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:24,900
four trees. 
That's really challenging 

486
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:28,100
because the life cycle of a tree
is very, very long decades. 

487
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:34,100
And so, I did speak to one 
person who said that he was not 

488
00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:39,300
in favor of We modified trees 
but is in favor of genetically 

489
00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:43,300
modified crops because the life 
cycle is much shorter a year, 

490
00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:45,600
you know you plant a crop that 
grows you harvest it and it all 

491
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600
happens in a year and so 
therefore it's a lot easier to 

492
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,500
study the local ecosystem and 
how it's impacting what those 

493
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,900
knock on consequences are you 
could do several cycles of a 

494
00:26:55,908 --> 00:26:57,900
study like multiple years in a 
row. 

495
00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:01,300
Where as if you were trying to 
study a tree, you wouldn't be 

496
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:03,300
able to do that. 
You'd have to find other ways to

497
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:05,000
get results to your study much 
quicker. 

498
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:10,100
There's a sulk Institute 
harnessing plant initiative they

499
00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:14,000
are working on genetically 
modified plants for carbon 

500
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,400
sequestration again with deeper 
Roots faster growth rates but 

501
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,500
they're they're plants across 
apps as opposed to trees. 

502
00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:24,800
So yeah, it is certainly 
possible. 

503
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:29,600
And the concern about the 
effects on the ecosystem, Yes. 

504
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,000
And one of the concern not to 
pile on because I think it's a 

505
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,200
cool idea, but I don't have a 
tiny bit more and then we can go

506
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,900
into being wizardly and 
optimistic about technology in 

507
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:39,700
the future. 
Will you cut that deal with me? 

508
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:44,400
Is that okay? 
I mean, it's not just because 

509
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,000
there's these possible 
consequences, I'm not doesn't 

510
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,100
mean I'm not optimistic if 
they're looking into it. 

511
00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,400
That's a good thing, I think so.
I think that's the right angle. 

512
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,600
I worry about stuff like this 
just because it lends itself so 

513
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,600
naturally to this, Fire for a 
single solution. 

514
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,000
So I could see say for instance,
that you know, deep-rooted 

515
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,700
hardwood trees that are easy to 
grow and store. 

516
00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:10,400
A ton of carbon like figurative 
ton. 

517
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,200
A lot of carbon is stored by 
them. 

518
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,500
I could see them Timber 
companies deciding that. 

519
00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:19,400
Oh actually we're going to plant
enormous plantations of trees 

520
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,300
and straight lines that are all 
the same. 

521
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:25,700
We're going to do this and it 
might be good for the sake of 

522
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:30,500
carbon, but that is not really 
In ecosystem, it's sort of a 

523
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,900
simplified simulacrum of Nature 
and I worry, that's for sure. 

524
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,100
I don't know that this would 
find its way into a diverse 

525
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:42,900
ecology, so much as being new 
plantation crop. 

526
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,600
Is that something that might 
happen? 

527
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,600
I think that could totally 
happen and I think also the 

528
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,200
other appeal, they might plant 
them in rows, like you said. 

529
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:55,000
But they also if they have 
stronger would they might more 

530
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,600
readily chop them down and 
watched a little bit defeats the

531
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,300
purpose of Equestrian the carbon
unless they're chopping it down 

532
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:03,000
for building material, then then
it's still trapped in that 

533
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,500
would. 
But if they're chopping it down 

534
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,400
for something that's ultimately 
going to go in a landfill like 

535
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,200
making paper or something like 
that, then it would release that

536
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,800
carbon back. 
So, yeah, that could happen but 

537
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,700
I don't think that would be a 
reason to not do this plan like 

538
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:20,100
genetically modified trees to 
sequester carbon because there 

539
00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:22,900
will also be people that will 
plant the trees and keep them 

540
00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:26,000
planted. 
It might be used for both 

541
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,000
purposes, I don't know. 
But We're going to be planting 

542
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,600
trees in rows and chopping down 
trees, regardless. 

543
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,100
I don't think that, I think we 
need to try slowing down the 

544
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:36,100
subway. 
See what God has in this 

545
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:40,000
problem, but people want think 
there are things they want their

546
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,800
space but you know. 
And so that's going to happen. 

547
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,300
Regardless, I think that's a 
really good point on the margin.

548
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:50,500
What is happening here? 
Is it that we're, you know, 

549
00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:53,400
cutting down old-growth forest 
and replacing it with a 

550
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,600
genetically modified tree 
Plantation. 

551
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,500
I hope that's not the case 
because that would be I hope we 

552
00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:00,900
keep the old girl. 
I hope we protect the old growth

553
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:04,500
and plant these new trees and 
planting new trees. 

554
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:07,600
And so maybe this would be 
replacing some of the less 

555
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,100
sophisticated. 
Tree, plantations. 

556
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,500
Hmm, something like that. 
Okay, that sounds more 

557
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:16,300
reasonable. 
I will have to, we'll have to 

558
00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:20,200
see, I think so. 
I'm sort of echoing some, we 

559
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,600
talked about this ahead of time,
actually, the wizard profit 

560
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:27,100
Takata me. 
Hmm, Charles see man, free think

561
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:29,300
Super wizardly. 
Lee, right? 

562
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,900
So I'm playing against you 
today. 

563
00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:33,100
I'm playing. 
I have to fill in for the role 

564
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:36,900
of the prophet and the prophet 
would say we should have we 

565
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:40,400
should keep things natural. 
We should have never chop down 

566
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,500
the trees and I mean obviously 
right. 

567
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:47,100
Like that's what the ideal. 
What? 

568
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:48,600
We're here in this situation 
already. 

569
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,600
It's been done. 
So that's no longer an option. 

570
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,400
I think what about that? 
I think that's a really good 

571
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,100
concern. 
I see lots of Articles getting a

572
00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:01,600
written. 
Although my science chops aren't

573
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,400
strong enough to say one way or 
the other, which way the 

574
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,800
evidence points. 
But I see a lot of concern about

575
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,000
how's the world heats? 
The ecosphere will have less and

576
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,600
less ability to retain carbon. 
Which is really concerning if 

577
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,900
you care about soil, Force, Etc.
That's a major problem. 

578
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:21,000
If the, in fact, I just saw an 
article this morning about the 

579
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000
Amazon becoming a net emitter 
rather than a net single it's 

580
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,400
happens is that is enormously 
concerning. 

581
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,700
So if that were to happen 
globally we would have to find 

582
00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:35,200
ways to make the ecosphere adopt
and adapt quickly. 

583
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:38,500
And if we were to just, you 
know, lean into our profit 

584
00:31:38,500 --> 00:31:41,900
instincts and say, well it's not
natural, it's bad design. 

585
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:44,700
Being at the world Burns, is 
that what happens? 

586
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,600
I mean, isn't that we already 
had all these goals for planting

587
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,600
more trees by 2020, and we 
didn't reach those goals. 

588
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,100
We save the rainforest. 
Remember that everybody had that

589
00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:59,100
bumper sticker? 
And now look what's happened to 

590
00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:01,100
our rainforest? 
Like you said, it's emitting 

591
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:04,100
more carbon and that's because 
it's being chopped down or it's 

592
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:07,700
on fire or things like that. 
And so I really think we need to

593
00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:09,800
do both. 
We need to protect what we have,

594
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,200
because it takes care of our 
Planet but also just because 

595
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,100
it's beautiful who doesn't like 
to run and play in the forest. 

596
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:19,700
And then we need to try to find 
these other high-tech Solutions 

597
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:23,600
and not just because we need to 
really work on the planet but 

598
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,900
also because it's interesting 
and exciting to learn about and 

599
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:30,700
so I think that's a reason to do
something to the guy. 

600
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:33,700
I think that's right. 
Do you any of this Illusions you

601
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:36,300
come across given your urine 
free things. 

602
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:39,100
Wizardly bent. 
Spook, you have you ever come 

603
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:40,300
across something? 
We're like, all right. 

604
00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:41,800
That's a bridge too far. 
No. 

605
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,100
Q. 
I think it in genetics more so 

606
00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:50,200
than in the environment I think 
sometimes what concerns me and 

607
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,800
genetics is all these consumer 
genetic tests that promise to 

608
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,800
tell you about this risk or that
risk. 

609
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,100
I think that there to me that's 
concerning because it's really 

610
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:04,100
hard to understand risk. 
I just did a story that kind of 

611
00:33:04,108 --> 00:33:06,500
touched a little bit on the 
difference between absolute and 

612
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,500
relative risk which is depending
on what test you get, you're 

613
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:13,100
getting different types of risk 
in its Hard to understand all of

614
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:15,800
that. 
That's like, statistics at the, 

615
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:17,800
at a higher level than I learned
in high school. 

616
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,500
So I concerned about that. 
And then also just massive 

617
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:26,600
amounts of people donating their
DNA to these open databases is 

618
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,500
concerning because we're all 
connected. 

619
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:32,600
And So eventually you'll be able
to track everybody somehow. 

620
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,300
Maybe maybe I'm just still 
thinking about like Gattaca or 

621
00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:41,000
those movies that that do that 
but yeah I have concerns about 

622
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,800
those Basis. 
So, you're saying that in the 

623
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,900
future enough, people will do 
23andMe or your siblings will 

624
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:51,600
have done it, even though you 
haven't and they'll be able to 

625
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:56,200
map all the genetic 
predispositions for various 

626
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,400
illnesses etcetera and they 
clean app. 

627
00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:02,500
Basically everyone who has had a
close relative, take the test, 

628
00:34:02,500 --> 00:34:05,100
something like that. 
Yeah, not even necessarily too 

629
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:07,900
close but yeah, definitely. 
If your siblings done it then 

630
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:10,699
then anybody who has her hands 
on that database can find out a 

631
00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:14,600
lot about you too. 
My mom actually got one of those

632
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:20,400
tests as a gift to my husband 
for Christmas one year and we 

633
00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:23,600
saved that box for months and I 
and I was like and I actually I 

634
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,800
worked at the national Human 
Genome Research Institute as a 

635
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,699
science writer on genetics at 
the time. 

636
00:34:28,699 --> 00:34:31,900
And I was learning for the first
time about in depth about this 

637
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:35,500
kind of stuff. 
And I remember saying, okay, I 

638
00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:38,900
support you, if you want to do 
this, but you're also making 

639
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:44,199
decision for our unborn child 
and our whole family and I would

640
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:46,400
rather you didn't do it. 
And we ended up, we couldn't 

641
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,000
give it away. 
I couldn't like, bring myself to

642
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,699
give it to someone who might 
want it. 

643
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:53,699
Instead we just threw it out. 
Wow. 

644
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:59,900
Are you concerned for genetic 
discrimination or Eugenics or 

645
00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:01,800
something scarier than those 
things? 

646
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,400
What are you worried about? 
All those things are possible, 

647
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,600
these consumer tests aren't 
there's not a lot of oversight 

648
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,700
from the government. 
For those consumer tests. 

649
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:13,500
So, I think that there's, I 
don't know what they're going to

650
00:35:13,508 --> 00:35:15,900
do with the data in the future, 
but they've got it. 

651
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:18,900
And then it's just like, okay, 
what can we find out about from 

652
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:20,700
this test? 
That we really actually need to 

653
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:22,300
know. 
That's going to change our life 

654
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:25,300
in a positive way. 
Nothing nothing. 

655
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:30,800
So it's supposed to tell you 
your ancestry, but it's only as 

656
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,500
good as the number of people who
have already given their data 

657
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,300
because they compare it to a 
reference database. 

658
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:38,600
It's only as good as the 
reference database, which is 

659
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,300
pretty biased. 
And so it's like Well, this 

660
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:44,000
isn't going to tell you much, 
anyways, it or even if it did if

661
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,700
you have European ancestry or 
this. 

662
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:48,000
If it says this or that it 
doesn't matter. 

663
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,200
It doesn't change our life in 
any way so but they caught the 

664
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,800
Golden State killer. 
That's kind of cool, right? 

665
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:59,300
Yeah, for everybody else but not
for the Golden State killer. 

666
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:02,600
I don't know that I want to make
policy based upon what's a good 

667
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,000
for the Golden State killer 
though? 

668
00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:06,500
No. 
But what about what's this? 

669
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:09,900
Good for people like the Golden 
State killer was a killer. 

670
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,600
Her but they can catch other 
people like they could catch a 

671
00:36:13,607 --> 00:36:18,300
person who had a child and gave 
the child away and moved on with

672
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:20,300
their life and they don't want 
to be found. 

673
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,800
That's kind of a tough situation
to be in. 

674
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:28,500
They've done no crime and then 
they're suddenly found and 

675
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:29,700
sought out. 
I don't know. 

676
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:33,600
I just think that that's really 
interesting and I am interested 

677
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,500
to see where this goes from 
here. 

678
00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:39,300
You know, I am certain that 
people have been found that 

679
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,800
didn't want to be found or 
things like the connections have

680
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,000
been made for not for Killers, 
or for a criminals, but for 

681
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,400
people have done no crime. 
They have made their lives a 

682
00:36:50,408 --> 00:36:52,500
little uncomfortable. 
Double, I'm certain that's 

683
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:53,900
happened. 
Now, certainly it's made 

684
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:56,700
people's lives more positive. 
They found people and reunited, 

685
00:36:56,700 --> 00:37:00,300
and in a good way to, but you 
just never know. 

686
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,700
And I'm just really curious to 
see where it goes from here and 

687
00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:05,600
how this evolves and grows and 
changes. 

688
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,200
Yeah, you got my gears turn in 
here. 

689
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,300
Yeah, I, you know I'm a science 
writer and I'm supposed to be a 

690
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,700
journalist. 
I'm supposed to be unbiased and 

691
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:18,200
I am when I write I'm really 
open to learning from a lot of 

692
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,300
people but as a human I have 
these I have a Ins and I have 

693
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:25,600
ones that aren't necessarily 
rational, but that's just the 

694
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,200
human brain. 
That's just how we are. 

695
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,900
And so, yeah, I'm leery about 
the consumer genetic test. 

696
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,500
Maybe, I can't pin it down 
exactly why. 

697
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:35,500
But these are the things I'm 
thinking about. 

698
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,100
No, I think it's fine to admit 
that I think it's, it's really 

699
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:42,000
strange to think that 
journalists don't have their own

700
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,900
opinions and it's just the 
facts, ma'am. 

701
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,800
That doesn't really exist to the
extent that we think, I think if

702
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,900
you're able to acknowledge your 
biases and try to be Fair. 

703
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,400
I think that's sort of the best 
you can hope for right? 

704
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:58,600
Is there much more than that? 
Well, yeah and I am afraid, I 

705
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,600
feel like I'm pretty fair in 
journalism. 

706
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,100
I've been swayed back and forth.
Many times about things where I 

707
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:07,400
go into a story. 
And I think I personally have an

708
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,200
opinion about something and then
I talked to someone and I've 

709
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,100
totally flipped and then I 
talked to another person. 

710
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:15,200
I've totally flipped, that's 
happened to me quite a bit and 

711
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,900
so that's also another reason I 
love this chat. 

712
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:21,100
I can't, I can't help but grow 
and evolve and so it's really 

713
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,900
Exciting. 
I'm gonna let me spill out for 

714
00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:26,700
one second and I'd love to get 
you to weigh in on this with 

715
00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:30,300
regard to genetics. 
So I used to be pretty 

716
00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:33,900
loosey-goosey on bioethics. 
I think I've become more 

717
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:37,100
conservative as I've gotten 
older and the sense where 

718
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,900
previously. 
The idea of having designer 

719
00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:44,800
children, where you could select
basically all of their genes and

720
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,800
their expressions, and sort of 
like customize a child, almost 

721
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,600
like you would, a Character in a
video game, that's too much 

722
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,100
power for humans to have. 
I think I don't think that that 

723
00:38:57,100 --> 00:39:02,900
level of I can imagine status 
obsessed parent, tiger mom, 

724
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:07,000
people doing this and it being 
just horribly oppressive and 

725
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,700
disastrous and they should not 
actually have that ability. 

726
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,600
I know that's coming. 
I've seen stuff coming out of 

727
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,000
China about making progress on 
various things like this, but 

728
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,500
it's just a company that came 
out just this year. 

729
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,800
I did a story on it. 
Story. 

730
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,100
I can't remember. 
Work it. 

731
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:25,000
I think I'd have to look that 
up. 

732
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,600
I think it was called Orchid, 
but they're doing consumer 

733
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,900
genetic tests preconception. 
So, to parents before they have 

734
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:36,400
a child can send in their spit, 
they'll get a report on their 

735
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:42,300
genetic risk for common common 
diseases, like heart disease or 

736
00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:46,200
schizophrenia or concern is not 
that common, but more common 

737
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,700
than like, I mean pregnant, 
women can get tested right now 

738
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:52,000
already for certain genetic. 
Like diseases, but they're 

739
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,700
usually ones that. 
And now we're getting into the 

740
00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:57,300
nitty-gritty of genetics. 
But the tests that we have now 

741
00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:00,500
are for diseases and conditions 
that have the genes have been 

742
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,300
identified for. 
And so they could tell the 

743
00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:06,500
mother your child has a 50% 
chance of having this disease or

744
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:09,300
your child has a hundred percent
chance or no chance. 

745
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,900
And then this new test that came
out where you can send your spit

746
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:17,600
in before you have a child. 
They'll say the relative risk 

747
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,700
based on this reference database
that they're comparing to that 

748
00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:24,200
your My at some point in the 
future, develop heart disease, 

749
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:28,100
which involves many genes, not 
just one, and then also your 

750
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:29,900
environment, what you eat, and 
how you live. 

751
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,000
And so, I think that's really 
interesting to say, okay, I'm 

752
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,600
going to now, choose an embryo, 
they can do this to that, 

753
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,500
they're promoting this with this
test that for people, people can

754
00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:44,100
opt for IVF and send these 
embryos to be tested and then 

755
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:47,400
choose the healthiest embryo to 
have a baby. 

756
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:50,500
And so to have that eyes 
likelihood of having a healthy 

757
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:53,600
baby I find that very 
interesting just like you're 

758
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,500
talking about and I find it very
concerning that this is a 

759
00:40:57,500 --> 00:41:01,400
privilege afforded only to the 
wealthier people because IVF is 

760
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,900
really difficult or, and very 
expensive. 

761
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,100
So, if I wanted to have another 
child, you know, people around 

762
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:09,800
me are choosing the healthiest 
babies. 

763
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,800
I don't think I'd have that 
option for me. 

764
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:18,600
It's kind of weird to, then it 
would just like, make this Gap, 

765
00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:21,000
you know, I don't know what I'm 
trying to say. 

766
00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:23,900
Now, I'm just wondering but I 
found that story. 

767
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:28,800
Very interesting concerning also
optimistic to that you could 

768
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:34,500
have a healthier baby. 
So I think it'd be if you knew 

769
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:38,100
that you could easily prevent 
your child from inheriting 

770
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:41,200
Huntington's or something like 
that like you'd of course want 

771
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,400
to do that. 
But I also well Huntington's is 

772
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,700
different because that's 
pinpointed to a specific Gene 

773
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:53,400
and if one parent Parent has it.
The child has a 50% chance of 

774
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,700
getting it. 
You can do a test on the embryo 

775
00:41:56,700 --> 00:42:00,200
and you can say, yes, this child
will develop Huntington's at 

776
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,300
some point in their life. 
I must a diverse from a car 

777
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:06,200
accident or something, but the 
inheritance pattern is very 

778
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,600
easily understood. 
The genetics are absolute. 

779
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,400
Your child has a 50% chance of 
getting this, whereas heart 

780
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,900
disease is not the same. 
It's a whole bunch of or 

781
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:15,600
diabetes. 
It's a whole bunch of disease 

782
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,500
genes involved in creating that 
disease and the environment and 

783
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:23,800
so it's like a The risk that's 
like, well, your child might be 

784
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,600
50%, more likely to get this. 
Then these other people, this 

785
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,400
other group of people, and 
that's hard to understand that 

786
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,100
kind of risk is hard to 
understand. 

787
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,700
Now, thanks for clarifying. 
That I only bring it up as an 

788
00:42:36,700 --> 00:42:40,100
example to say that. 
For instance, I have a friend 

789
00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:44,900
who only wants to buy a house 
when he is able to design it 

790
00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:47,500
himself. 
I'm like, but you're going to 

791
00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:50,700
design things wrong and you 
won't know about it until it's 

792
00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:51,300
Bill. 
Bill. 

793
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,100
And then you'll have no one to 
blame, but yourself, and that's 

794
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:57,100
how I feel about choosing too 
much about your child's 

795
00:42:57,100 --> 00:42:59,100
genetics. 
Like, what if you opt for all 

796
00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:02,700
these things and somehow they 
still something's just not 

797
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:05,400
right? 
Or you like I almost like the 

798
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,300
randomness protects you against 
this bad choosing that you did 

799
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:13,000
and isn't our isn't it? 
Our flaws that make us 

800
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,600
interesting in our life 
challenges that make us grow. 

801
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,100
Yes, I think if you could have, 
I think everyone points to 

802
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:22,300
Bioshock, right? 
Did you ever play those games? 

803
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,400
No, I don't even know what that 
what that is. 

804
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,400
So if you're interested in 
genetics, this is like one of 

805
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,200
the main. 
I don't know if it counts as a 

806
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,100
satire, it's more of like a 
giant morality play that's based

807
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:37,300
on Colony at the bottom of the 
ocean. 

808
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,400
That is based on a sort of 
looser reading of Ian, Rand, and

809
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,700
the Nietzsche's ubermensch, and 
it's all done through genetic 

810
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:47,900
engineering. 
Great these, this race of 

811
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:50,600
Supermen and women. 
And of course, it doesn't go 

812
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,500
very well actually. 
I don't know as much about those

813
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:58,100
games I probably should but I 
want to also talk about running 

814
00:43:58,100 --> 00:44:01,100
tight since you know, you're a 
Manor there. 

815
00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:04,900
Either mainers or new mainers or
some mix. 

816
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,100
Why did you decide to cover this
story about seaweed and running 

817
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:13,300
tide? 
Well I love seaweed is like 

818
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,000
another irrational thing of 
mine. 

819
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,100
I can't explain why but I find 
seaweed seaweed so interesting. 

820
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,500
And so when I learned that there
was a group working on 

821
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:24,400
sequestering carbon with 
seaweed, I had to find and there

822
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,500
were so close to me. 
I had to find out more. 

823
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:30,600
That's won't the only reason why
I love any seaweed story. 

824
00:44:32,100 --> 00:44:33,000
Yeah. 
They're in there they're 

825
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,600
definitely doing something 
really interesting and and 

826
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,700
far-fetched to know we were 
talking earlier about things 

827
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:41,900
that seem so far-fetched. 
This And also to me seems really

828
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:44,300
far-fetched but also really 
possible. 

829
00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:47,300
How's it work? 
And we're called Nori. 

830
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:50,000
We're looking forward to a 
future of things like this. 

831
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,300
Hmm. 
Seaweed can sequester carbon 

832
00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:57,200
just like any plant, just like 
the tropical rainforests only 

833
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,400
this is an ocean forest and it 
needs sunlight to grow but it 

834
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,800
needs depth to sequester the 
carbon. 

835
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,500
So it grows really well near the
shore where the sunlight 

836
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:11,900
penetrates the water. 
But And if it were to die there 

837
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:15,400
and decompose, there might be 
fish that eat it, it would 

838
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,600
decompose and it would release 
that carbon. 

839
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,700
And so it needs to be a really, 
really deep water in order to 

840
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,300
lock that carbon in where the 
environment limits 

841
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,900
decomposition. 
And so that's kind of the catch,

842
00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:32,000
that's what makes it. 
So tricky to use, seaweed to 

843
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,800
sequester carbon because it only
grows in shallow water and you 

844
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,600
want it to end up dying in deep 
water. 

845
00:45:36,900 --> 00:45:38,500
And so that's what they're 
figuring out, how to do it 

846
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:43,100
running tide, they are growing. 
Going offshore kelp forests at 

847
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:46,400
the surface of the Water by 
floating them on biodegradable. 

848
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,600
Buoys and then when the when the
forest when the kelp from gets 

849
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,000
big enough really long and heavy
than the whole thing sinks, 

850
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:56,900
they're setting them adrift out 
in the deep water. 

851
00:45:57,100 --> 00:45:59,300
When it gets big enough, the 
whole thing sinks, the buoy 

852
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:03,700
sinks, the the kelp, the little 
miniature kelp forest sinks. 

853
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,700
And the idea is that it syncs 
all the way to the sea floor and

854
00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:10,000
just kind of stays there forever
sequestering, the carbon work 

855
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,300
can't do. 
Decompose there's a there's a 

856
00:46:12,308 --> 00:46:15,600
mystery here though, in between 
the Surface and the depth. 

857
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:18,900
There's a chance that a fish 
might eat it or it might start 

858
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:21,700
to decompose. 
And so my question that kind of 

859
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:23,300
was left a little bit 
unanswered. 

860
00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:26,400
During the story is, how can 
they measure how much of it 

861
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,500
reaches, the deepest part and 
does actually get sequestered? 

862
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:33,700
I need to know that if they're 
going to be a marketable as a 

863
00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:36,300
carbon offset, then you know 
exactly how much is being 

864
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,900
sequestered. 
And I didn't understand how 

865
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:41,600
they're measuring that but 
that's what they're working on. 

866
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,000
This year is studying the 
feasibility and how to measure 

867
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,900
what's being sequestered. 
I'm told it's relatively easy, 

868
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:56,900
maybe it, maybe it's not. 
I do you know how they do it? 

869
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:03,100
No, I just, I am sort of bias 
isn't the right word, but I'm 

870
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,600
sort of the ocean strikes. 
Me is incredibly Dynamic and 

871
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,800
hard to measure. 
What's happening inside of it. 

872
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:13,500
That isn't to say, soil is easy.
In fact, it is not, but ocean 

873
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:17,200
strike me as being really 
changeable and fluid. 

874
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,400
If you'll excuse, Use the pun, 
but I think once you go into 

875
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,300
deeper water, I think it's 
relatively stable there's less 

876
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:29,200
impact from currents and things 
like that, but I'm just, it's 

877
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,800
sort of doesn't make sense in my
head, like, how could this be 

878
00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:34,000
measured accurately? 
But I'm always told that it's 

879
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,800
easier that I think in soils, in
fact, in some cases more 

880
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,800
difficult but now that I'm on 
the spot, I can remember who 

881
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,500
told me this might just be like 
a headline I read. 

882
00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:45,200
And now I'm just making stuff. 
Totally, we learn things. 

883
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,300
It's also how we learn the wrong
things. 

884
00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:50,100
Someone said something in are 
minors once and I was like, that

885
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:52,200
sounds good. 
I'm going to pair it this back 

886
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:58,100
for the next three years. 
Trying to figure it out though. 

887
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:03,600
Yeah, they do he did say they're
putting trackers on these buoys 

888
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:07,300
so they'll know where they go at
the surface but I would imagine 

889
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:09,800
once they reach a certain depth,
those trackers are no longer 

890
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:14,000
giving them any information. 
Yeah, I think as I made there's 

891
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,200
a big enough buffer and maybe 
they're conservative with how 

892
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,700
many tons are actually being 
sunk. 

893
00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:24,500
Maybe. 
Maybe it just works with having 

894
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:27,200
a conservative estimate. 
I don't know. 

895
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,200
I should have them on that. 
They should, they should come 

896
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,900
talk to us. 
I think it's really cool. 

897
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,300
I love that people are now 
thinking about blue carbon and 

898
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:37,900
really creative ways. 
I think the potential there is 

899
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,800
enormous, and you're a sailor. 
So, clearly. 

900
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,700
Yeah, this gets your Hackles up,
I spoke to Adam basket running 

901
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:47,600
tight and he was fantastic and 
you could tell he was just super

902
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,800
passionate about doing this as a
service to our world. 

903
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,800
You know, he was really 
enthusiastic about and really 

904
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,700
optimistic about it too. 
And I don't think he was just 

905
00:48:57,700 --> 00:49:00,000
feeding me lines. 
I really think he was excited 

906
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,900
about it and made me excited 
about it. 

907
00:49:04,100 --> 00:49:05,200
That's good. 
One thing though, that's 

908
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,100
interesting. 
That Adam said and then also 

909
00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:10,600
some of the people I talked to 
who were working on the 

910
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,900
genetically modified trees 
failed Giddings. 

911
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:16,600
He works at a think tank, a 
theme that kept coming up, was 

912
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,000
this idea that these things are 
buying as time? 

913
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,000
So locking and carbon to buy us 
time and I'm just like buying 

914
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,300
time for what for the real 
solutions. 

915
00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:30,500
I want to know what those are. 
You know what's coming after 

916
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,800
these carbon sequestering 
solutions that are are, you 

917
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,000
know, just exploding right now. 
What's what are we buying time 

918
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,500
for? 
I don't know. 

919
00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:41,900
I think it gets pretty 
speculative the farther out, you

920
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:44,200
go. 
Mmm, I'm also curious how many 

921
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,200
new categories will be created 
Beyond enhanced weathering or, 

922
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,400
or the caliper soil or trees. 
What are the what are the things

923
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,300
we don't even know about yet? 
Is that sort of where you're 

924
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:59,200
going with this? 
I mean I think it's I think it's

925
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,400
endless and maybe it's just 
because I started this beat 

926
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,600
recently but I just see this 
more and more often in the news 

927
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,300
and More and more new things 
popping up. 

928
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,400
I actually do think it's not 
just my perception. 

929
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,700
I think that it actually is 
growing because I also read that

930
00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:21,500
the number of companies who are 
committing to Net, Zero goals, 

931
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,400
tripled in the last year. 
And so there's a huge demand for

932
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,500
for the carbon sequestering. 
Carbon offset purchasable carbon

933
00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:34,300
offsets, so people are going to 
be trying to Find a way to meet 

934
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,100
that demand. 
I think so. 

935
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:41,500
I think it's going to happen and
I think NetZero inherently 

936
00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:46,200
favors carbon removal to 
relative to previous offset 

937
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,900
iterations. 
So I think there's a bright 

938
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:51,200
future for carbon removal. 
I think we're going to see a lot

939
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,300
of it. 
I also love seeing new projects 

940
00:50:54,300 --> 00:50:56,100
pop-up. 
I think this week, I saw we're 

941
00:50:56,100 --> 00:50:57,900
recording this in the beginning 
of May. 

942
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,100
So I saw heirloom just came out.
Did you see that? 

943
00:51:02,300 --> 00:51:08,200
No, some new director. 
R capture initiative that you 

944
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,700
just lead us where they float, 
the balloons up into the air, 

945
00:51:11,700 --> 00:51:14,200
and they cool was cool. 
And they can collect the carbon 

946
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,900
up there and ice crystals. 
I think that's a different one, 

947
00:51:16,900 --> 00:51:20,200
actually. 
Oh, so you're proving the point 

948
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,300
though because there's I saw 
that one too. 

949
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,500
There's just a huge amount of 
brain power and money. 

950
00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:29,600
That's going towards this. 
Oh yeah, I'm looking forward to 

951
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:30,300
it too. 
I hope. 

952
00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:34,200
Will you keep covering this beat
and dig it into these Solutions?

953
00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:36,800
Mhm, yes. 
I hope so. 

954
00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:39,700
I also want to some of the 
questions that I have about 

955
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:41,300
this. 
The more I learn about it is 

956
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,200
this idea of Net Zero, we have 
these goals of Net Zero by 2050 

957
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,200
or 2030. 
There's different benchmarks. 

958
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,400
I want to know. 
Are these companies also 

959
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,900
outlining a plan to get to that 
Benchmark? 

960
00:51:53,100 --> 00:51:55,300
Or do they say? 
We're going to be there by 2050,

961
00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:58,600
and then do nothing for the next
five years because they've got 

962
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,300
plenty of time. 
And so I'm curious, there has to

963
00:52:02,300 --> 00:52:04,800
be. 
You could say, oh, we'll be 

964
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,100
there by 2050. 
And then you can make your buck 

965
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:10,400
now because people want to buy 
from these companies that are 

966
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:12,800
making these promises, they want
to invest in them. 

967
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:16,300
And then they, they may never 
reach them or maybe only get 

968
00:52:16,300 --> 00:52:20,600
started on it 20:45 and not have
time to reach the goal and we've

969
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,400
made a lot of environment goals 
that we never met. 

970
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,800
And the other thing that I have 
a question about is what does 

971
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:34,200
NetZero even mean? 
Because I think of Microsoft, 

972
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,600
which has a Leave. 
They have their goals to become 

973
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,900
carbon - which is even better 
than that zero and then there's 

974
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:48,700
BP which wants to be Net. 
Zero are they also including the

975
00:52:48,700 --> 00:52:52,200
downstream emissions from the 
products that they sell? 

976
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,300
Are they responsible for 
accounting for that too? 

977
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,100
So these are just questions that
I have. 

978
00:52:57,100 --> 00:52:59,300
It's like I said, I'm still 
learning about it, so it's 

979
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:02,300
really interesting. 
Maybe, you know the answer to 

980
00:53:02,300 --> 00:53:05,000
those know. 
I don't they're good questions 

981
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,800
though and people are still 
trying to figure out what 

982
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,400
exactly it means to be Net Zero.
Although I think that's in the 

983
00:53:10,408 --> 00:53:12,200
process of being much more 
codified. 

984
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,200
Now, for instance, one thing I 
know that pertains to what we do

985
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,500
at Nori, is that to count as Net
Zero. 

986
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,200
Their carbon removal has to be 
practiced with at least 100 

987
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,600
Years of permanence, which is 
new. 

988
00:53:25,900 --> 00:53:27,900
We'll see, though. 
I don't know about which Scopes 

989
00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:30,500
need to be included. 
That's always an active area. 

990
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,500
For life cycle assessment 
fights, I don't know, but we 

991
00:53:34,500 --> 00:53:36,700
will see. 
I'm sure there will be plenty of

992
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,500
cool companies. 
Doing amazing things. 

993
00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:42,100
I'm sure they'll be some shell 
game activity. 

994
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:44,800
It's pretty much exactly what 
you'd expect. 

995
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,300
Basically, you have job security
is what I'm trying to say. 

996
00:53:48,100 --> 00:53:51,200
Hmm. 
There's a lot to cover, so 

997
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,700
you're okay. 
Good. 

998
00:53:54,300 --> 00:53:56,800
Yeah. 
Well Teresa have someone to 

999
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,700
follow the work of you and your 
colleagues, where would you 

1000
00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:02,900
direct them? 
The website, free think.com. 

1001
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:09,600
And then mine is well, my name 
is Theresa Carey and my website 

1002
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,500
is Theresa Carey.com. 
I put my favorite articles there

1003
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,200
but free think.com is a place to
go. 

1004
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,800
It's not just environment that 
we write about our carbon, 

1005
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,500
there's several great writers on
the writing team. 

1006
00:54:20,700 --> 00:54:23,600
The the topics are super diverse
and the videos are stunning. 

1007
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,400
The videos are indeed very 
beautiful to links to all those 

1008
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,900
things are in the show notes. 
And thanks so much for being 

1009
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:32,700
here Teresa. 
Thank you. 

1010
00:54:33,300 --> 00:54:35,800
It's been fun. 
Well, thanks so much for 

1011
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,400
listening. 
If you like what we do, please 

1012
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,800
give us a great rating and 
review on iTunes or apple 

1013
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,600
podcasts. 
Tell your friends and thanks for

1014
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:49,800
listening. 
Have a lovely day, but thank you

1015
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,100
so much for listening. 
If you like the show, please 

1016
00:54:52,100 --> 00:54:53,700
rate and review it in apple 
podcast. 

1017
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:56,400
And Or Stitcher. 
It really helps us a lot to get 

1018
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,100
this content to a wider 
audience. 

1019
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,600
If you think what we're doing is
useful, interesting fun. 

1020
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,100
Hopefully, all three, we 
certainly appreciate your rating

1021
00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:05,300
and review. 
You can keep up with Nori at nor

1022
00:55:05,300 --> 00:55:07,000
e.com where there is a 
newsletter. 

1023
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,500
That's Nori.com / subskribe 
there's podcast, there's a whole

1024
00:55:10,500 --> 00:55:14,200
bunch else or you can send us an
email at podcast at nor e.com. 

1025
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,300
We are also now on patreon at 
patreon.com slash Nori podcasts,

1026
00:55:18,300 --> 00:55:21,300
if you'd like more content 
engagement and community and 

1027
00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:22,900
thank you so much for your 
support.