1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,120 My name is Ross Kennon. If you've never listened to this 2 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:15,080 show before, I'm one of the Co founders of the Nori Carbon 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,600 removal Marketplace and this is no longer a Nori podcast. 4 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:24,680 This podcast is now a private endeavor of mine. 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,120 This is the first post Nori reversing climate change episode 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,760 and it's a Halloween spectacular. 7 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,160 As the expression goes, we're talking about Gerita's Faust and 8 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:40,160 especially contrasting it against Marlowe's Faust. 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,800 The reason I wanted to do this with regards to climate change 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,880 is this idea of the Faustian bargain is it's very common. 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,880 I hear it used all the time. People mention it. 12 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,120 Whenever there's a deal that they assume is just bad, it's a 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,360 deal with the devil and they assumption that any deal with 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,160 the devil is actually just inherently bad. 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,720 That's a cultural meme that I think it's pretty powerful. 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,920 But actually it depends on the version of Faust that you're 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:08,520 reading. So Danny and I talk about this 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:09,720 in the show. I'm going to try and give you 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,560 some context here so we don't just throw you in and it's too 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,360 much to to get a grip on. But the Faust mythology is old. 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,800 There ostensibly was an actual person named Phaus who was a 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:28,360 German alchemist and allegedly made a deal with a devil named 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:34,920 Mephistopolis and got amazing powers in return and ultimately 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,000 had to give his soul to the devil in exchange for access to 25 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,040 these greatly enhanced human abilities. 26 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,440 One of the most famous versions of the Faust story is told 27 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,520 through Christopher Marlowe, who's, you know, a contemporary 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,320 of William Shakespeare's and Elizabethan England. 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,600 And that story is a very straightforward moral parable. 30 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,600 It tells a story of how Faust cuts this deal with the devil, 31 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:05,160 gets his time to shine, and then he has to sell his soul and pay 32 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,080 the piper and go to hell. The Faust story is actually not 33 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,360 like this at all. Faust is written by Gerta, who 34 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,720 comes along about 200 years later, and he is this 35 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,640 wunderkind, polymath and brilliant writer associated very 36 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:26,480 strongly with the Enlightenment and also with the transition to 37 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,880 Romanticism. So this is always very clumsy 38 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,320 whenever there's big terms that describe entire historical 39 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,400 epochs, it makes people mad that never seemingly fails to people 40 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,160 are still fighting about the dark ages because the dark ages 41 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,560 in Europe were, you know, not to go full coffee talk, but they 42 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,160 were neither dark nor an age. So romanticism, though, let's 43 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,600 just I'm just going to skip ahead here. 44 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,600 Enlightenment, if you're a conservative, is a hoax. 45 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:57,440 It's not actually enlightening. It's actually this horrible step 46 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,960 backwards where humanity has this revealed truths and 47 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,080 Christianity and humanity is turning his back on it in favor 48 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,960 of lower pursuits like science or deism, where God put the 49 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,040 fundamental laws of physics into motion, but then stepped away. 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,840 And everything that we see as a result of those actions that 51 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,960 proceed from those laws naturally working their ways 52 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,720 out. If you're a progressive person, 53 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,400 it is this time when new ideas about how civilization should be 54 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,120 governed, who should have rights, who should have a say in 55 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,040 Rule and science is, you know, obviously making huge strides 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,800 all during this time. The Industrial Revolution is 57 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:42,360 also taking place concurrently. By the end of the 18th century, 58 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,760 the Industrial Revolution is starting to pick up and it never 59 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,960 slows down. And in the early 19th century, 60 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,800 especially in Great Britain are really starting to take off with 61 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,520 wool and textile manufacturing and steam production and mining. 62 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,040 And of course this is where you have that line. 63 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,120 Dark satanic mills. That's a romantic criticism of 64 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,120 industrial civilization. So Romanticism is a post 65 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,560 Enlightenment philosophy of the 19th century, which is a 66 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,560 rebellion against industrial civilization where humans no 67 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,200 longer work in conjunction with the seasons. 68 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,079 They no longer follow the movement of the sun during the 69 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:22,760 day. They need clocks that tell them 70 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,120 what power and what minute they need to be at the factory. 71 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,080 And this process of moving humans away from the countryside 72 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,800 and the sort of pastoral life into cities where their lives 73 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,920 are heavily regimented and controlled. 74 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,840 And so Romanticism is also very strongly associated with a 75 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:44,760 rebellion against organization and structure. 76 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,840 It's interested in individual human feeling. 77 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:55,720 So if you have religious beliefs that are not affiliated with the 78 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:01,080 church, if you are spiritual but not religious, if you do what 79 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:06,680 feels right, those are sentiments that are quite 80 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,240 individualistic in a way. And you can use them in ways 81 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,240 that are for the greater good or for humanity or some collective, 82 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:18,640 but they rely very heavily upon your own judgement and are thus 83 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:24,160 different from accepting the revealed wisdom of text or 84 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:25,640 tradition or something like that. 85 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,080 You've broken away. And so Faust is a representation 86 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,040 of this. Danny and I get into this of why 87 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,080 now? Like, why should we be talking 88 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,320 about witches and stuff after the Enlightenment? 89 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,160 I think part of it is there's a calling to go back to this 90 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,160 simple way of understanding natural world. 91 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:49,880 If you are sympathetic to witchcraft, then you know that 92 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,640 it is often about the interaction of humans with the 93 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,880 spiritual world that is often at play within nature. 94 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,640 It's something that humans can't access within this worldview, 95 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:07,080 and therefore it isn't an inherently bad thing. 96 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,360 I think within Romanticism it wouldn't surprise me actually. 97 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:12,960 I don't know about this in particular. 98 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,400 This is speculative. It wouldn't surprise me if there 99 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,000 was a rebirth of interest in things like witchcraft during 100 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:21,280 Romanticism. But anyways, what's interesting 101 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:24,040 about the difference between Christopher Marlowe's Faust, 102 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,000 where Faust has to go to hell and pay the price, but that is 103 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,000 not actually what happens. Van Goert's Faust. 104 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:36,880 So Romanticism I associate with sincerity, and it almost matters 105 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,640 more that you continue. To strive. 106 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,880 That it isn't about outcome so much, it's about sincerity and 107 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,280 attempt in striving. And because of that, the deal 108 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:52,000 that is struck in the Gerta version is that Faust can have 109 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,360 his enhanced powers, but so long as he never stopped striving for 110 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:02,040 something greater, which is a deal that he's willing to make 111 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,760 because he actually is never going to stop striving because 112 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:11,040 the nature of humanity is, is to strive in this way, which is not 113 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,440 a very conservative idea. I'm using conservative in the 114 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,520 sense like, think about how the hobbits are in the Shire, right? 115 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,720 Like there's almost no time, there's no history in the Shire. 116 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,680 Sure, events happen, there's gossip about which families do 117 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,120 what. I get the feeling that if you 118 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,520 are an ambitious Hobbit and you live in the Shire, you would 119 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,640 face tall poppy syndrome, where your neighbours would want to 120 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,040 cut you down to size for thinking that you are better 121 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,000 than them and that you were trying to step out and make 122 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,800 yourself seem above them in some way. 123 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,120 This is actually a common problem in more egalitarian 124 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,960 societies. Places like the Nordic countries 125 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,840 have a concept called log em, which I believe is the Swedish 126 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,680 term, but it just means sort of like average good fine. 127 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,080 And there's a tendency to drive towards this like everyone has 128 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:03,000 enough, no one's trying harder than they need to, and we're all 129 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,520 just sort of content to be equal in this way. 130 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,840 And that's not to say the striver or the contented 1 is 131 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,680 more or less good than the other. 132 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,320 Your mileage may vary depending upon what kind of life you'd 133 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,240 like to live, what kind of civilization you'd like to be a 134 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,200 part of. And obviously this is going to 135 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,280 influence your beliefs. Like someone who's very content 136 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,800 is not hoping for a transplanetary trans, solar 137 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,560 system, transgalaxy, future civilization. 138 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,960 You know, they probably think that's a bad idea. 139 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,039 And that's much beyond humanity's capacity is to even 140 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,720 desire. And in fact, desiring it may put 141 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,799 us at risk. So this is part of the classic 142 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:44,000 problem for Faust and the Marlow version, is that this desire for 143 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,160 capacities greater than what is natural for humans is inherently 144 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,240 dangerous. Now, it's a very conservative 145 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,920 idea. And you'll see that type of 146 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,240 conservative thought within environmentalism too. 147 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,280 It's not just a capital R Republican way of thinking or 148 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,160 that type of conservatism. It's in a lot of places. 149 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,600 It's one of those trans partisan intuitions that humans have that 150 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:06,320 represents itself in many different places. 151 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,560 It's not just a political party thing or just a politics thing. 152 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:13,600 It's a worldview orientation thing about humanity's place in 153 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,120 the cosmos, in the world. Where should we be? 154 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,760 How ambitious should we be to live lives that are appropriate 155 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,680 to our nature? Gerta thinks that actually, we 156 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:27,600 should never stop striving. And because he never does, he 157 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,760 wiggles out of this deal, never actually has to go to hell, 158 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,840 never has to pay for his sins, and is somehow saved. 159 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,920 He's saved by his sincerity. He's saved by his desire to 160 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,480 never stop trying. Wow. 161 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,480 I mean, that's an entirely different story, right? 162 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:45,320 Goes from being a fable about morality and about humanity's 163 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,880 place in the cosmos to being an exhortation to follow your own 164 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,280 judgement, to reach for the stars, as it were, and to just 165 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,040 really make a know of it. I don't actually even know what 166 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:57,640 it's supposed to say for climate people. 167 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,680 The the Marlowean version of the Faustian bargain has a very 168 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:06,200 natural fitting within climate politics, because that's a way 169 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,280 of saying that if you mess with this technology or this belief 170 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,120 for this policy, it's without doubt going to lead to 171 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,720 Mephistopheles coming and collecting your soul. 172 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:25,080 But if you are more of a in my freestyling here I was called 173 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:27,640 Gerta. An eco modernist? 174 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:34,360 You know, I haven't, I know because in in the Faustian 175 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,600 bargaining for Gerta, there is there is risk and as we talked 176 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,240 about with with Danny here, it's about probability. 177 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,520 So there is a chance that actually Faust, you know, 178 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,320 wearies of his of his increased abilities and finds that being 179 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,680 so much better and so much more astute brings him less pleasure 180 00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:55,440 than when he had to work harder at it. 181 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,440 Or that he doesn't actually like knowing all this information, 182 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,520 that it actually is more of a burden and in which case he 183 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,680 would eventually trade it in and lose the deal and have to give 184 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:06,400 his soul. But that actually does not 185 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:07,800 happen. But the fact that there's risk 186 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,320 involved actually makes me like it more because it means, sure, 187 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:17,440 there is plenty of of technology that within climate that is 188 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,320 risky because all of it's risky. We're pumping carbon dioxide 189 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,280 underground and that could go poorly. 190 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,720 There might be geoengineering that's coming. 191 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,320 There might be solar radiation management. 192 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,080 There might be the spraying of materials in the stratosphere to 193 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,160 increase the Earth's albedo and make the planet more reflective. 194 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,400 And that might be necessary at some point. 195 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,680 I guess we'll see how extreme weather events and climate 196 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:45,920 change plays out. But it's very possible that that 197 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,560 gets deployed in the next decade or three. 198 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,560 I think it is a Faustian bargain, actually, in the 199 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,240 Gertian sense, because we don't know how that will go. 200 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:03,560 It might be a bargain that humanity can win and save our 201 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:07,600 souls. It could be the case that we 202 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,960 never stop striving, by which I mean we never can stop spraying. 203 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,360 We always have to keep striving, which is a criticism people make 204 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,880 of this particular type of geoengineering intervention that 205 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,880 once you start, you can't stop. So that's another funny way that 206 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,520 you can apply the Faustian bargain in a guerotine kind of 207 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,640 way. But I think what's interesting 208 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,800 about it is because there's so many versions of the story here 209 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,880 or ways that you can apply this key insight about what is 210 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:41,280 happening to Faust, that it's a more complex phrase to use in a 211 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,040 climate context that maybe meets the eye at first blush. 212 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,120 So at the risk of being absurdly pedantic and making an entire 213 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,640 show on this topic in order to explore this idea, I hope you 214 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,400 enjoy. Danny and I talk about a lot of 215 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,640 topics. It goes into all sorts of fun 216 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,280 Halloween ideas about the occult turn normal. 217 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,960 I hope you enjoy. You should definitely read the 218 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,320 classics. They have so much to say. 219 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,720 They're still speaking now. And thank you so much for 220 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,360 listening. Here is your show. 221 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:20,360 We just got started at the beginning here because otherwise 222 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:21,680 we're going to get too far away from it. 223 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,600 Everyone knows about it. And the climate connection here 224 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,080 is Faustian bargain, which is a term that people use a lot. 225 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,040 But it's actually one that I don't really. 226 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,360 Like very much. Why is this a book people will 227 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,360 talk about? Can you just introduce this for 228 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,960 listeners? Yeah, so I mean, Faust is 229 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,040 probably a name a lot of people have heard before. 230 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,880 And if you're like me, it, it's not something that would be at 231 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,280 the top of your reading list. But I, I was inspired to get 232 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,120 into it because I heard a bunch of occultists talking about it 233 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,440 on a podcast and it, the way they were describing it made it 234 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,200 sound extremely dynamic and just extremely dark and like more 235 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,520 psychedelic than what you might expect from something that was 236 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,520 written 200 years ago. And so it's also just for a 237 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,520 personal connection. I read it in my first year of 238 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,640 teaching and it's all about a guy that had kind of exhausted 239 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,320 all the possibilities of knowledge and he found himself 240 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,440 really no wiser than he was before, which is a Direct Line 241 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,880 from, from Faust. And so he does what I think a 242 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,920 lot of people would do is he turns to black magic. 243 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:23,280 He's like headaches. Well. 244 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,120 If logic and rationality and science and medicine are working 245 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,840 out for me, then yeah, let's let's conjure some demons and 246 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,400 spirits and, and that's, and that's the premise. 247 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,640 It doesn't even end up there. That's kind of where things 248 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,200 start. So it's it's got a lot more 249 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,920 genre trappings that people might expect. 250 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,160 It has a lot more genre trappings that people expect. 251 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,800 What does that mean? Well, I guess since it's so old, 252 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,680 maybe it's not fair to call them genre trappings, but it's, it's 253 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,360 got a lot of stuff related to like alchemy and magic. 254 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,720 And so like, if you've ever read Harry Potter before, then, if 255 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,840 I'm not mistaken, I, I, I have to write wrong about this. 256 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,640 But like Nicholas Flamel is, is referenced in Faust Part 1 as an 257 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:13,280 early alchemist. And if you've ever seen like 258 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,200 monkeys used in connection with, with witchcraft, as you might 259 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,000 see in like the Wizard of Oz, there's a scene that will reward 260 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,600 you for like having seen that before. 261 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,920 And obviously this is older, so it wasn't inspired by any of 262 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,920 those things. But when people think 200 year 263 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:33,320 old poetic verse, a Christian allegory, it doesn't sound very 264 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,240 fun. But it's like it's very metal 265 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,720 and it's very, it's very magical and kind of dark and maybe not 266 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,040 Dirk's fantasy, not quite into the castles aspect of it, but 267 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,480 they're they're visiting witches and and her talking monkeys and 268 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,360 making potions and, and wishing for different things and 269 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,160 conjuring spirits. It's it's a blast. 270 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,920 You know it's a. Strange area for subject matter 271 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,840 because post enlightenment the world is not typically 272 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,560 considered as enchanted as it was. 273 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,680 Renaissance sort of starts it. Enlightenment really stabs it 274 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,240 good. So you would expect subject 275 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,440 matter like this hundreds of years before the romantic era in 276 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,640 the 19th century. But why now? 277 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,320 Like why would it be worth talking about witches and the 278 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,720 the early 19th century? I mean, it's, it's a fantastic 279 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,840 question. And I think a lot of the answer 280 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,680 is revealed in the flaming that Goethe brought to a lot of his 281 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,800 like, scientific and literary investigation because he he 282 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,120 really wanted to legitimize himself as a scientist. 283 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,280 And he actually discovered or rediscovered the intermaxillary 284 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,080 bone and the human, the human skull, I believe. 285 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,120 And that sounds like a very cut and dry legitimate thing to do. 286 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,360 But the reason he found that is that he was looking for a reason 287 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,200 why humans were different from the rest of the animals because 288 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,160 we are, you know, created in the image of God. 289 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,040 And so even though he didn't explicitly write about his 290 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,520 belief in hermeticism and alchemy, it is all over his 291 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,119 fictional work. And so it's not clear to me if 292 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,720 he was intentionally trying to disguise it in his personal 293 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,599 writings, but it doesn't seem like he's doing it just for the 294 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,560 imagery. Like this is a guy that believed 295 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,400 in the Hermetic ideal of as Above So Below, which isn't just 296 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,680 about transcendent influence on the microcosm, it's also about 297 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,920 how you should expect to find parallels between the sciences. 298 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,400 And just to be perfectly clear, this is scientifically 299 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,800 inaccurate, but it's wrong in this really beautiful way that 300 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,960 like the the growth of a flower should mirror the human 301 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,320 aspiration toward God, you know, and, and so a lot of his stuff 302 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,960 in Faust and also his novel Elective Affinities is about 303 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,400 kind of creating these parallels between metals and and human 304 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,640 development, or finding these these connections between 305 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,800 different scientific processes that again, have since been 306 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,160 discredited. But as an aesthetic and a symbol 307 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,360 set to work with, it is just absolutely gorgeous. 308 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,560 For symbolic reasons, it's hard to argue that that's not an 309 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,360 extremely useful set of tools to have in your tool chest. 310 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,000 And obviously there's crossover with the development of science. 311 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,040 I associate Newton pretty strongly with the cult interest 312 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,400 and I don't think you will talk about that probably as much as 313 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,400 it might want to. But there's a lot of alchemy in 314 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,360 the development of chemistry. It's in the, it's in the name 315 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,160 alchemy. It's like right there, but I 316 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,880 don't know, I think at some point this got separated and 317 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,200 somehow occultism and alchemy has a parallel life outside of 318 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,840 the sciences. It was deemed no longer an 319 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,800 acceptable pursuit of knowledge and became either associated 320 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,560 with alternative lifestyles, rejection of traditional faiths, 321 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,840 music that is not part of the mainstream, witchcraft, the 322 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:48,120 Rams, upside down crosses provoking suburban parents, and 323 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,560 I don't know how did that even happen historically because it 324 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,440 it was once overlapping. Yeah, I mean, I, I think a lot 325 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,680 of the more recent stuff is actually just a matter of like 326 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,640 the Satanic panic and, and one of the reasons that it's kind of 327 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,320 hard to research is not all of the alchemists agree on like 328 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,760 what the symbols mean. And so it's not like you can 329 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,760 easily go out and like brush up on, you know, oh, the color red 330 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,320 always means this, light always means this. 331 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,440 It's like a lot of them are are speculating when they're when 332 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,680 they're creating these framing devices. 333 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,240 So all of that is to say that like even something like the 334 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,920 Baphomet, if I understand correctly, did not originally 335 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,480 have like a satanic implication to it. 336 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,040 But since it's non Christian and outside of the mainstream, I 337 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,760 think it was just deemed satanic because it's not Jesus, right. 338 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,240 And it's scary too. It's this hairy goat person or 339 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,000 hairy goat man, you know. So I, that would be my 340 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,320 assumption is that it's, it's not mainstream and so people are 341 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,560 going to assign some, some evil tendencies. 342 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,040 But all that is to say is that Satanism is part of the occult 343 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,080 too. So like, it's it really? 344 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,400 Depends on which direction will take the conversation. 345 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,320 You know, some of my friends who are quite devout Eastern 346 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,640 Orthodox Christians. The husband of this couple 347 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,240 formerly was an occult practitioner. 348 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,680 And so as I dove into this topic, I'm trying to wrap my 349 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,240 head around why is this so popular now? 350 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:12,960 Because I know so many people who. 351 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,560 Like for instance, you will hear as above, so below a lot. 352 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,760 It's like one of those occult dog whistles. 353 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,240 Or once you hear it, you're like, oh, this is kind of 354 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:21,920 everywhere. Like people say this a lot. 355 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,760 Like it's that and astrology and, and crystals and pendulums 356 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,320 and things that you associate what they call. 357 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:29,760 They're kind of, they're all over the place. 358 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,520 This Orthodox couple, the husband was saying that he used 359 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,720 to be really into witchcraft in the occult and he was saying 360 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,560 that he thinks it's inherently anti Christian. 361 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,320 Well, one, he believes the Christian story is just the 362 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:45,680 truth. So you don't have to accept that 363 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,400 if you're listening. But in his world view, that's 364 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,960 the truth. And that he he said that he had 365 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,600 the strongest, most powerful occult experiences at the very 366 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,560 beginning of his experience with it. 367 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,240 And over time it weakened, which is the opposite of what you 368 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,320 would expect as you get more skilled in certain applications 369 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,640 of magic, if you think that's a a real thing that you can 370 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,480 practice and get better at. But he actually thought that it 371 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,960 was a way of almost inducing a sort of narcotic effect on 372 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,920 someone where, you know, wow, that was thrilling. 373 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,040 We had, you know, the chandelier Shuck when we did the Ouija 374 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,520 board. And every subsequent time, all 375 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,920 the responses became just enough to make sure he never quite 376 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,520 forgot about it, just enough to make sure he didn't just go back 377 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,840 to church and follow something that he thought was probably 378 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,800 more likely to be true. So he thinks it is just more of 379 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,040 a, a distraction than something powerful. 380 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,480 So from there, though, you're going to love this, he also 381 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,840 loves Hereditary. Danny and I, if you're listening 382 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,440 big RE Astor fans, all of what we're talking about will help 383 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,840 you appreciate horror films much more than you ever have in your 384 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,040 entire life. He has a hard time believing 385 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,360 that that is real. He thinks the occult is real, 386 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,520 but it's more of a distraction than it is meant to be an 387 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,720 actual. Like stuff like what happens in 388 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,240 Bowser and Hereditary is not does not happen. 389 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,480 Or in Robert Edgar's The Witch, he thinks stuff like that is not 390 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:06,000 really a commonplace experience, but we exaggerate it and it 391 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,120 distracts us from the true pursuit of the divine. 392 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,360 That's how he might frame it. What do you think about that? 393 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,880 You know, I mean, I sense it's such a deep and diverse study 394 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,760 and practice. I think that's, that's 395 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,960 completely legitimate, especially if, if that's what he 396 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,000 values. Because I mean, you know, me, 397 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,600 I'm, I'm kind of a postmodernist, but I, I like to 398 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,600 think of myself as an assertive postmodernist. 399 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,520 So it's like it's not a, a nihilism sort of thing, but at 400 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,520 the same time it's like it is kind of secular and atheistic in 401 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,760 the way I think about the occult where the rituals you do are 402 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,800 really to try to shift your mindset. 403 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,440 And so like, it's kind of like you could think of it as 404 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,000 exposure therapy. I could give you some examples 405 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,680 of some like really simple rituals that I've done. 406 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,720 And again, I'm, I'm coming at this not from the idea that I'm 407 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,360 summoning a demon or a God or something, but sort of like 408 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:00,800 using the power of symbolism to induce a, an experience for 409 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,760 myself. And so the, the first one that 410 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,840 comes to mind, it is I, I was invited to a wedding and it was 411 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,480 a group of people that I know pretty well, but I'm not really 412 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,080 the most dominant person in the group. 413 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,640 And so every once in a while when I would go out with them, I 414 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,000 would kind of shut down and be, play kind of safe and really not 415 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,640 be the most sociable version of myself. 416 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,440 Because, you know, not everybody wants to talk about Thomas 417 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,320 pension when we're all drinking champagne, you know, and. 418 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,920 You can believe it. So what I did is my my magic 419 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,800 ritual and this, this should resonate with any Catholics. 420 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,840 And I'm not, I'm not sure of the definition of sacraments and 421 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,120 other faiths, but a sacrament and Catholicism, which is this 422 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:42,200 own kind of ritual is it's an outward invisible sign that kind 423 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,800 of bears the mark of God, right. And so it's not enough to just 424 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,040 have a positive mindset, like you need some kind of totem or 425 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,720 some kind of thing in order to induce the experience for 426 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,000 yourself. And so mine was kind of the no 427 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,440 brainer is I just went out and bought this really nice suit and 428 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,080 I kind of made that my my totem with the specific intention and 429 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,200 specific preparation of priming myself. 430 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,480 And I just told myself it's like, I'm going to like socially 431 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,440 dominate this wedding and like be really on and like talk to 432 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,440 people and, and it, it, it sounds silly because it's so 433 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,960 down to earth, but like I, I treat you not. 434 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,560 I framed that entire experience through the lens of a cult magic 435 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,840 of me being like, I'm going to have this physical thing. 436 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,600 And especially an outfit is not a benign totem to give yourself 437 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,400 at your, your outfit can really affect how you move and operate 438 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,160 in spaces. And so I, I just like really 439 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,800 made sure that I cultivated the mindset that I was going to be 440 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,200 so Trimble and I wasn't going to shut down and what I would do if 441 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,920 I felt like I was kind of withdrawing. 442 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,960 And I had a blast, you know, And so I think if you look at it 443 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,800 through terms, through the terms of like you have a subconscious 444 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,960 mind and you'd have emotional predispositions. 445 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,800 And just like exposure therapy can kind of shake you out of a, 446 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,880 a slunk. I think magic can kind of do the 447 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,440 same thing. That if if you put yourself in a 448 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,680 situation that you know is going to give you an emotional 449 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,320 experience, sometimes that's more interesting than thinking 450 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,760 of that as exposure therapy or like cognitive behavioral. 451 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,560 Therapy or something? Oh, that's a fun example of 452 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,080 Denny. That's really illuminating here. 453 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,720 He also reminds me very strongly of. 454 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,600 Yeah, well, I think I was really interested in early American 455 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,000 history when I was an undergrad in the 19th century. 456 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,400 I was fairly obsessed with the several courses on and the 457 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,760 burned over district of upstate New York always fascinated me. 458 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,520 And Mitch Horwitz also is very interested in this the, you 459 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,520 know, New Thought movement, Swedenborgianism, Mormonism. 460 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,600 There's a lot of things in here that even positive thinking 461 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,440 sounds innocuous at this time, but there was a period at which 462 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,840 that was actually a fairly heretical, it's sort of a cult 463 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,240 belief system. Do you agree with that? 464 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,240 Well, I mean, I, I think that especially a long time ago, if 465 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,840 your idea of religion is just about these, these truth claims, 466 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,240 and that if something kind of falls outside of that, then, 467 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,560 yeah, it's going to feel super radical. 468 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,720 And especially something as like ego driven as like getting what 469 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,200 you want. But that's why it's, I think 470 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,400 really illuminating to think of Aleister Crowley, who I, I 471 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,040 believe the, the main like tagline. 472 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,160 I'm, I'm using incorrect language here, but it's, it's 473 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,960 something to the effect of like do what thou wilt. 474 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,200 And that doesn't sound that crazy. 475 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,960 But if, if it's all about kind of responding to or 476 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,320 contradicting the will of God and putting your will above what 477 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,720 God wants, then yeah, that's going to sound like really scary 478 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,320 and really evil and really like, like, how dare you? 479 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,720 How, how dare you like not humble yourself before God's 480 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,680 plan and his whole thing was like, no, like what, what really 481 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,520 makes you powerful is getting what you want. 482 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,840 And like you can, you can use magic just to become more 483 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,600 assertive and, and to, you know, express your will. 484 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,640 And in a lot of ways, they, I mean, it kind of reminds me of 485 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,480 what Nietra was talking about and Beyond Good and evil is that 486 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,480 like, maybe morality actually isn't about following these 487 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,000 rules that are written in the sky, but it's just about opining 488 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,880 on things that have nothing to do with you when you're really 489 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,560 just too afraid to do what you want, you know? 490 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,840 And so, yeah, I, I, I think in a lot of ways it's going to sound 491 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,520 evil if you think that, you know, speaking up and getting 492 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,000 what you want is, is against God, you know? 493 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,960 I think there's something, well one, it sounds Capital R 494 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,720 Romantic, that is a very strong individualistic romantic style 495 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,440 of interacting with the world. You were saying there. 496 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,400 My personal experience is the sublime thing that I am choosing 497 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,960 to follow, not something someone else has laid before me. 498 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,920 I will walk into the woods myself and come out with the 499 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,480 truth on the other side. Well, the downside of this way 500 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,800 of thinking though, is you can think of how many people do you 501 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,160 know of that came up with their own answers, that we're not a 502 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,960 part of the conventional. This is kind of what you do at 503 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,080 the political ideology side of things. 504 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,320 None of the options are very good. 505 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,920 You end up with Hitler, you end up with Lennon and Stalin. 506 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,960 Or now, like those are people who are sort of explicitly 507 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,840 atheistic, but we're saying that actually Christianity is sort of 508 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,240 a Jewish attempt to corrupt the Aryan man. 509 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,640 And actually it's a way of glorifying weakness so that the 510 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,800 the Jews who rule the world can keep the Aryan man down. 511 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,320 I'm just quoting his bad ideas. But just thinking about like, 512 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,640 OK, I know how the world should be ordered. 513 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,760 The world should be ordered where the proletariat should 514 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,000 rule, and the bourgeoisie and those of their useful idiot 515 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,160 allies should be put to death or enslaved for the benefit of the 516 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,600 proletariat who may oppress. And that doesn't really lead to 517 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,200 any place worth going either. It's pretty bad as well. 518 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,840 I even see that sometimes where people who don't follow 519 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,920 convention and don't get married and don't have kids and don't go 520 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,160 down, that there's plenty of ways to legitimately be happy 521 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,000 doing that, and there's plenty of unhappy people who did do 522 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,960 that. But you take a greater risk when 523 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,200 you disobey the collected, passed down wisdom from a very 524 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,640 long, long, long time and try to do something that is unique. 525 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,120 There's there's comfort in the norm, there's comfort in the 526 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,520 ritual, there's comfort in the path. 527 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,240 And if you stray from it, you do so at your peril. 528 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,120 Your your risk of return goes up. 529 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,840 Potentially you might end up with a lifestyle no one else has 530 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,480 and end up with like Faust, like Faust has something that 531 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,760 basically no one else on earth has. 532 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,760 And it is by all accounts sublime. 533 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,720 And it even works out for him, unless it's the Marlow version, 534 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,160 in which case you are, you really made a bad deal and it 535 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,000 ended up on the bad side of the scale. 536 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,640 It's the expected value is negatively infinite is how you 537 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,360 might say it in probabilities. It's bad. 538 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,400 It's real bad. So I don't know, I think there's 539 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,160 something to be said about just being that conservative person 540 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,280 and not going over. Otherwise you're like, you're 541 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,640 worshipping devils and then you're judging people who go to 542 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:45,720 church. Like, come on. 543 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,080 Like, like, one of those is clearly more dangerous than the 544 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,320 other, right? Well, yeah. 545 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,720 And, and that's why I, I ultimately think that it's, it's 546 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,800 really less about what's inherently found in this belief 547 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,440 system, which is, you know, often self contradictory and 548 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,720 like one author is going to tell you the exact opposite of what 549 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,120 the other author tells you and, and really much more about your 550 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,760 disposition. And so it, it's interesting 551 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,520 because I am not really into Christianity, but I am also like 552 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,120 a corn fed Midwestern boy who was raised in the Catholic 553 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,840 Church. And so as much as I as an adult 554 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,280 kind of consciously reject some of that, I think a lot of that 555 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,000 is in my forward wiring. And I'm the kind of guy that my 556 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,320 magic ritual would be to be like sociable at a wedding, you know, 557 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,480 like I'm not really somebody that would really use it to do 558 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,080 something super devious. And so like, I, I think it is 559 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,680 going to come down to just like, you know, if I can use the word 560 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,960 soul, just like what is in the soul? 561 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,120 And if it's about expressing your will and getting what you 562 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,160 want, then a beautiful soul will probably just want to be a 563 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,320 better asset to other people and use magic in order to be more on 564 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,240 and more emotionally available and maybe take some bigger risks 565 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,200 than they would otherwise. And then, you know, just to get 566 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,400 back to Hitler, I believe he was in a cultist. 567 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,360 And I don't know if he was doing it in like an atheistic way or 568 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,960 with firm credulity and all of the gods that he believed that 569 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,040 he was contacting or whatever. But but it was really his 570 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,640 intention that made the magic bad. 571 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,240 And so again, I got I think some of the evil connotation is more 572 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,000 of a 20th century reaction where it's like a lot of these guys 573 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,960 were just scientists and they were catching stuff on fire and 574 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,240 they thought like a weird chemical reaction where fire 575 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,640 burned pink was that that must be God because they had no other 576 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,280 explanation for that. So that's, that's my 577 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,240 justification. And I, I definitely hope it 578 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,320 doesn't, you know, have me burning down houses anytime 579 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,200 soon. But that's well, he's have to 580 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,000 keep the tabs on me. I mean, like some of the, OK, 581 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,360 some of it ends up maybe on the, oh, this is sort of like sweet 582 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,200 old women gathering herbs and creating poultices. 583 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,680 And I feel like a lot of the stories you hear, maybe it's 584 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,920 because it's more sensational, but they end up in this. 585 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,200 It's grim. A lot of it sounds great. 586 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,160 A lot of it sounds like people who dabble in things that 587 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,840 frankly, if there are supernatural beings like this, 588 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,880 that people engage with them in a frivolous way that is 589 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,000 extremely dangerous in exactly the same way that happens in 590 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,680 Talk to Me. Which do you like that film, by 591 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,880 the way? You know, I don't know if I ever 592 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,520 saw that. Was that another 824? 593 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,360 Sure was. That's good. 594 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,000 It's Australian film, you would like it. 595 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,040 It's it's basically about teenagers who find a severed 596 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,120 hand that is enchanted in some way and they invite spirits into 597 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,880 their bodies and it talks through them. 598 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,400 And that's basically how I imagine a lot of people that 599 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,040 engage with the occult is if it is real, if there are spirits 600 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,720 out there who are interested or willing to speak with humans, 601 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,640 it's likely on their terms. And we don't understand that 602 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,360 world very well at all. A lot of it is very 603 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,280 transactional, too. A lot of it seems very quid pro 604 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,720 quo. It's like you do something for 605 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,520 this entity. It does something for you. 606 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,160 But it always has this, like, monkey paw logic to it where it 607 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,200 never quite comes back to you in the way that you want. 608 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,280 It's always like, tainted, like, none of the stories you hear are 609 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,840 just like, yeah, I got to deal with the demon. 610 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,160 Everything worked out great. It's always just like Dad. 611 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,040 Yep. No, I mean, I, I, I think that's 612 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,360 a valid, that's a valid point of view because. 613 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,760 Well, on the other hand too, though, it's like I think you'd 614 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,200 only hear about the crazy stories of somebody who. 615 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,920 Like, you know, was. Possessed or somebody like they 616 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,760 lost their soul because they were dabbling in it too much. 617 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,920 And so maybe the more modest, healthy applications are just 618 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,800 not as sensational. That's true. 619 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,320 So maybe I'm being unfair then. So are there places where you're 620 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,120 saying either in your social life or other places where 621 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,920 people are using this in a way where you might think, wow, this 622 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,720 might be a spiritual practice that is not inherently chaotic, 623 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,120 dangerous, exposing? Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a 624 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,280 guy I really like named Jason Louvre, who he his whole vibe is 625 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,000 actually like, you shouldn't really read that much about it. 626 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,720 You should just start practicing it and you kind of approach it 627 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,080 as an atheist. And so you're skeptical of 628 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,840 everything. And then his, in his words, he's 629 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,040 like, you just see what sticks. And so that's, that's been kind 630 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,200 of my experience too. And I didn't follow his advice 631 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,560 because I got to him kind of later. 632 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,480 But I'm reading The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manley 633 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,680 P Hall right now and you know, I'd say for every insightful 634 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,000 point, he's got a bunch of stuff that I am just immediately like, 635 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,920 Nope, Well, that's not right. You know what, when it gets into 636 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,000 numerology, when it gets into him claiming the pyramids are 637 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,840 70,000 years old, it's like, I can't prove they're not. 638 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,560 But I, I'm just going to play it safe and kind of go with the 639 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,000 mainstream view on that. But, but again, it's like 1. 640 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,400 I don't think it should be the only tool in your toolbox. 641 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,840 You know, I, I think you should probably hold it with a loose 642 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,639 grasp. But then, but then too, I'd, I'd 643 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,280 really kind of go back to the like the, the postmodern framing 644 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,080 is that this is about like inducing an experience on 645 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,719 yourself by suspending your disbelief. 646 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,520 And so since I go into that, I are with it, with that framing, 647 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:44,360 I feel kind of protected because I don't necessarily believe in 648 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,760 spirits. Or demons you know. 649 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,760 I've, I've had interesting experiences before, but I can't 650 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,360 really prove that they took place outside of my mind's eye. 651 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,080 And if I've had dreams before, it seems closer to me, closer to 652 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,200 a dream than the idea that like a majestic being opened my 653 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,880 apartment door and like sat with me for a second, you know? 654 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,800 And so I think you could probably lose your mind if you 655 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640 go into it being like, let's create some truth claims about 656 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,880 reality and about another dimension that we don't have 657 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,880 access to. Whereas if you go into it kind 658 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,960 of like, Oh yeah, maybe the fact that all of these different 659 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,520 Greek gods have these like different names in different 660 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,120 societies or like the Jesus story is, is not that some or 661 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,080 not that dissimilar from Dionysus. 662 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,640 Then you can see that it's not as much about the specifics of 663 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,160 anyone's story, but that there are these kind of trends that go 664 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,080 through history and there might be something archetypal about 665 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,600 them that you could benefit as an object of like meditation 666 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,440 with, if that makes sense. One thing that's difficult for 667 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,720 me, and maybe this is psychologizing myself in a way 668 00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:53,600 that might help us make sense of some of my questions or why I 669 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,000 ask the questions that I ask is I think once you're open to 670 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,240 supernatural claims, besides the religion that you were raised in 671 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:05,160 or that you were brought up in, there's like the the first step 672 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:10,760 out of that is some sort of milk toast agnosticism where you're 673 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,480 like, maybe we either don't know or all streams lead to the same 674 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,360 river, to the same ocean. And that's like, it's all a way 675 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,080 of connecting with the divine. And they're all somewhat valid, 676 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,600 or many of them are or somewhat valid, maybe uniquely valid if 677 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,760 you take the stronger version of it. 678 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,480 But then once you start getting to more outlandish beliefs, like 679 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,320 you have to bite the bullet with agnosticism at some point where 680 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,440 you're like, OK, so it's not just that Islam and Christianity 681 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,800 and Shintoisms animus beliefs are correct. 682 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,360 You also have to believe that all of the strange enchantments 683 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,960 and demons and things that show up in horror movies might be 684 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,840 real. This might not just be, you 685 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,440 know, nightmares from our collective unconscious here. 686 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,160 This might actually be a real thing, which is what I was 687 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,760 hinting at earlier. Like if you, if you don't have 688 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,880 to agree with what I'm saying, you're not to listen to this and 689 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,320 say Ross is clearly right. But if you're listening to this, 690 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,600 then what is it like to entertain for a second that 691 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,320 there might be paranormal or supernatural experiences beyond 692 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,360 what we typically in our everyday lives think is 693 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,000 possible? It definitely makes horror 694 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,640 movies much scarier. You're like, what What even do 695 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,520 horror movies do in a universe where the supernatural and 696 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,600 paranormal or everyday lived experiences that we've hit the 697 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,520 tube and unable to see or unwilling to acknowledge, I 698 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,680 think they become much scarier, much better films. 699 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,520 And once I started going down this path with you, I, I love 700 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,600 horror films now. I never did my entire life. 701 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,920 And now I'm like, I, I love, I love just working my way through 702 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,200 the Canon. Well, I, you know, I haven't 703 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,640 seen a lot of horror movies since I've gotten into this, but 704 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,200 it, it definitely makes me want to give Hereditary. 705 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,920 And you know Bo is afraid to rewash. 706 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,880 I don't know, Afraid is like, what do you? 707 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,240 It's that that film is so allegorical, I'm not even sure 708 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:03,600 it knows what it's trying to do. But Hereditary is amazing. 709 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:04,880 Yeah. Just watch Bo is Afraid. 710 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,240 I don't want to be mean to it. Yeah, that, that one, it's like, 711 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:10,720 it's so abstract. I, I haven't been too interested 712 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:14,520 in any interpretations because it, it almost is like pure, pure 713 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,880 it, or like pure, you know, pure archetype or something. 714 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,560 So yeah, I, I, I definitely see it. 715 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,440 And I can see people taking my kind of postmodern perspective 716 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,320 as something that kind of takes the magic out of it. 717 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,840 But I, I really see it as something that like, if you 718 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,880 acknowledge that our minds are kind of bending reality and 719 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,440 we're not directly interfacing with the world and we're kind of 720 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,680 primed by our cultural conditioning and stuff, then I 721 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,440 don't think it does take the magic out of it to to see them 722 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,720 just assembles. But but at the same time, on a 723 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:49,440 topic that's kind of caught my interest recently is that a lot 724 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,360 of people in Hospice several weeks before they die start to 725 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,840 interact with their dead relatives. 726 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,960 And that's like not an uncommon experience. 727 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,440 And it'd be different if it was just one off kind of a crazy 728 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,840 story, your uncle on his deathbed, you know, saw your 729 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,520 grandma or something. But I think a lot of people have 730 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,760 experiences with their dead relatives and and even different 731 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,360 things of like not just being reminded of an ex-girlfriend, 732 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,520 but like feeling her love again. Like people have experience like 733 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,280 that, that I think you know it to to say that that's just the 734 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,520 construction of your mind kind of misses the point. 735 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,760 Is that like, no, you're, you're maybe struck with such grief 736 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,600 over loss that your brain produces something for you. 737 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,640 But I think it kind of hints to the idea that there might be 738 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,840 this other dimension. I couldn't prove it and that's 739 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,240 not really my interest anyway. But I think that maybe I'm 740 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:43,400 playing it safe by talking about it only symbolically. 741 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,200 You know, I, I think it's just easier to talk about if I say 742 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,360 that it's symbol symbolism. But like, yeah, I mean, the the 743 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,920 world is a mysterious place and maybe we just haven't created 744 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,440 the antenna yet that can catch that field or describe it 745 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,480 quantitatively, you know? Yeah, I love that. 746 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,360 I'm very, I'm very open to that possibility, more open than I've 747 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,640 been in the past toward it. Do you like The Sixth Sense? 748 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,200 You know, I haven't seen it since I was a kid. 749 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,000 I remember loving it as a kid though. 750 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,680 Rewatch it. It's one of the best ghost 751 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,480 stories that I've seen, and mostly because of the way it 752 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,520 describes ghosts, which Hailey Joel Osmond describes them as 753 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,280 like, they don't know that they're dead. 754 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,720 They're caught in these loops and they're reenacting these 755 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,800 plays and they cannot break. It's like a very literary 756 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,240 reading of ghosts, right? Because I think of ghosts, I 757 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:32,120 think of unfinished business, you know, like they're, they 758 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,480 were so preoccupied with things in their life they were unable 759 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,120 to finish. They might not even know that 760 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,160 they're dead. They're trying to finish 761 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,480 whatever task they were. They might even forget who they 762 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,840 Did you watch a ghost story, by the way, the Casey Affleck 1. 763 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,480 I've not, I know it. It's kind of like low, low 764 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,920 production, but like high writing and stuff like that. 765 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,160 Is it right? Yeah, but it's pretty similar to 766 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,800 that. It's about attachment to place 767 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,720 and about loops and being caught in them and and what is time. 768 00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,760 And there's a lot of there's like some really sophisticated 769 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,160 smart ideas in both of these films. 770 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,960 The 6th Sense is more straightforward, but I love that 771 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,000 rendering of ghosts too. Where, you know, they they're 772 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,840 caught in their own pain, they're caught in their 773 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,760 unfinished business and they cannot move on. 774 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,120 And whether that's literary, whether that's actually how the 775 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,560 afterlife may or may not work in reality, it's sort of besides 776 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,120 the point. The reason it's why it's so 777 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,080 prolific in literature and human experience is because it's a 778 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,760 beautiful idea that makes us think about how we're all going 779 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,440 to die with unfinished business. And that's a beautiful tragedy, 780 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,480 probably more tragedy than anything of what it means to 781 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,400 have a body that will one day pass away. 782 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,600 Oh yeah, I mean it God, that it, it immediately makes me think 783 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,720 that like, you know, on one level it would be scary to die 784 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:43,080 and then to be judged in either sense of heaven or hell, you 785 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,920 know, that's existentially terrifying. 786 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,760 But I think even more terrifying would be to die and then have to 787 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,160 like prove your credulity and to be like, you actually don't get 788 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,360 to go to heaven unless you believe it's real or you have to 789 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,520 like be committal because like, you know, I love, I love ideas 790 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,240 and reading and, and philosophizing and investing in 791 00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:02,600 the question more than the answer. 792 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,160 And so to me, that would be my hell of being like, you're dead 793 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,840 now. You have to like double down on 794 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,600 what you think is true. And that's where you'll end up. 795 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,440 And I'll be like, oh God, like that. 796 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,080 I I can't have anything more terrifying than that, you know? 797 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,600 This has come up on so many podcasts I've been up on 798 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,600 whenever we talk about Christianity because the people 799 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,480 who get the worst of it from Jesus are the people who, you 800 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,240 know, put their hand on the pile and look back, right? 801 00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:28,840 They're not worthy of the Kingdom of God. 802 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,760 So if you if you once were believing or if you're like kind 803 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,800 of believing, but you don't pick up your cross and follow Jesus, 804 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,080 you're in like literally the worst spot you can be in. 805 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,720 The non believers, the sinners, the publicans, like they get 806 00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:44,960 some free passes. But if you're half hearted about 807 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,880 this, you're bad. That's that's my fear is that it 808 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,760 ultimately ends up being true. I am in literally the worst 809 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,600 possible spot. Yeah, You know, I mean, it's, 810 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,960 it's definitely a question that keeps me up at night, but 811 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,560 doesn't necessarily occupy me during the day. 812 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,600 You know, and I, I got into a lot of this stuff because I, I 813 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,640 had kind of a spiritual experience when I got into 814 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,280 teaching. And that, that's given me a lot 815 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,480 more faith, if I can use that word, because it felt very 816 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,560 obvious, you know, and it, I would say almost every other 817 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,240 decision in my life has always been kind of rolling the dice 818 00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,920 and just, you know, seeing what happens because I suck at 819 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,800 planning. But this, this felt like, oh, 820 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,120 wow, no, like you really stumbled on something. 821 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,040 You need to pursue this for, for spiritual reasons. 822 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,200 And so I, I found the more that I lean into stuff like that, the 823 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,520 more belief about the details might not be as important. 824 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,560 But again, I'm, I'm still sweating at night sometimes. 825 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,720 So one thing I. Don't like is whenever there's a 826 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:48,600 technology or a plan that people don't like or that it has undue 827 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,280 risk or they perceive undue risk, they'll call it a Faustian 828 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,480 bargain. And this happens in climate, 829 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,600 especially with things like spring aerosols into the 830 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,960 stratosphere to make the Earth more reflective, to reduce the 831 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,720 heating effect of the planet. And people will say it's a 832 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:05,600 Faustian bargain, which is another way of saying you're 833 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,560 making a deal with the devil. And what I don't like about this 834 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,520 is that it implies that it didn't work out well for Faust, 835 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,920 but it only makes sense in the Marlowe version where he gets 836 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,280 his comeuppance in the Girta version, as long as you spray 837 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,120 aerosols, but you keep striving and you keep trying in your 838 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,720 heart for more and more pleasure and more fulfillment, then 839 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:30,320 seemingly you you get to avoid punishment. 840 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,520 Is that a correct reading? I, I'm all for replacing any 841 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,320 Marlowe references with Gerto 1. So I, I like the, the direction 842 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:39,800 that you're going. And I, I don't know, I think 843 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,240 people are probably trying to bolster the argument by making 844 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,120 the reference to Faust, which is not like something that a lot of 845 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,760 people even read. So yeah, it, it seems like it 846 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,560 may be a little politically charged, a little, a little or 847 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,680 Luddite because I mean, I, I don't know, it, it seems to me 848 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,240 that technology is disruptive and I don't think we should 849 00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:00,720 blindly trust it. But I don't know if there's a 850 00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:03,120 lot of examples, especially in America of us being like, oh, 851 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,880 guys, there might be negative consequences. 852 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,280 Let's not, let's not follow technology. 853 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,720 And so maybe that's kind of cynical and pessimistic, but 854 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:15,200 like it seems to me that we would probably like innovate our 855 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:21,480 way out of climate issues before stopping carbon emissions. 856 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,200 Is that is that too heretical to say? 857 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,800 I mean, people think it, and I don't think it's a wrong thing 858 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,400 to think or plenty of smart people think that we are going 859 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,920 to innovate our way out of it. If they didn't think that, then 860 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,000 I don't know what they would be spending their time doing. 861 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,000 They probably wouldn't be working that much in climate 862 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,240 because I feel like climate work, especially climate tech, 863 00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:44,560 is almost inherently based on a sense that we will either stop 864 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,400 climate change, reverse it, or at the very least slow it down 865 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,760 and make it less bad. If you didn't think that it'd be 866 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,240 hard to engage in this work with any sort of gusto, I would say. 867 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:54,720 Yeah, yeah, OK, Well, that's good. 868 00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:56,560 I, I, I know, I don't know, because, I mean, you're 869 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,720 obviously more involved in the space. 870 00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:01,800 And so like, yeah, I, I think if people are going to call many 871 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,600 technological solutions a Faustian bargain than it is. 872 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,680 Yeah, it's kind of appealing to like sinfulness or be like 873 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,400 you're, you're being greedy or, or like you're, you're looking 874 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,400 for like a loophole. Whereas like the actual Faustian 875 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,520 story, especially the the Goethe version is, is much more about 876 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,240 like, you know, that the, the nature of desire and the nature 877 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:19,880 of experience and stuff like that. 878 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,920 And so it, it might be like a pithy headline, but I'm, I'm not 879 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,200 convinced that there's a lot of, a lot of significance there, you 880 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,360 know? It's amazing that to do a 881 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,480 podcast that's entirely about being pedantic about a phrase 882 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:38,400 that is used incorrectly that well, like actually technically 883 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,440 is correct. If you read the Marlow like 884 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,920 them, certain technologies are fallacian bargaining because 885 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,120 they could and very well might lead to you just going to hell. 886 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,760 But I don't know actually, because there's risk and 887 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,840 weighted probabilities in this. It actually might be inherently 888 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,920 guillotine instead, like maybe it actually every every 889 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,400 fallacian bargaining is actually guillotine because it's all 890 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,480 about risk and no one knows that, you know, if you do solar 891 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,160 radiation management, we only get 20 years and then we all go 892 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,160 to hell. Actually, some people might make 893 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,360 that claim. Maybe some people would claim 894 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,720 that it the input output is 1 to 1. 895 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:17,240 So it's a lot of show for that little insight on that climate 896 00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,120 topic. But wasn't it fun? 897 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,800 Oh my gosh, I it was a blast. I I could do three more hours. 898 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,320 Danny, we're at the end here. Is there anything that you'd 899 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,440 like to to plug? Anything that you're working on 900 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,320 right now? 100% So yeah, I've been working 901 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,920 on a novel that has some Faustian themes called The 902 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,000 Kingdom of Liminal Space that's going to have a concept album 903 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,080 with A2 and some other little mixed media goodies that are 904 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,440 currently under wraps, but that'll be coming out probably. 905 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,960 I'd originally said Christmas. It's probably looking more like 906 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,080 July at this point, but yes, stay tuned for that. 907 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,720 And also if you check out my channel off the wall novels on 908 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,560 YouTube and I'm Daniel Backer author on those social media 909 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,040 platforms, so. He has great videos too, very 910 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:04,840 educational. Even those weird things like go 911 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,880 to Edith Wharton's home, which, come on, that's, that's not your 912 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,880 style, Danny. You're trying to fool with that, 913 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,960 by the way. You know, it's for every 914 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,800 postmodern I I've got to, you know, do some critiques of the 915 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,080 Gilded Age. I I. 916 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,040 Yeah, keep you balanced. Thanks for being here, Danny. 917 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:20,520 Thank you, Ross.