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You're listening to the 
reversing climate change, 

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podcast by the team at Nori. 
The carbon removal Marketplace. 

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This is a show about the 
innovators and entrepreneurs 

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developing solutions to climate 
change. 

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Hello and welcome to the 
reversing climate change 

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podcast. 
My name is Alexandre de Guerra 

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co-founder and director of 
corporate development here. 

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At Nori. 
We are here in Toronto. 

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We are tending, the Collision 
Tech event, which is my first 

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big Tech event. 
We were standing at our booth 

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all day. 
I'm so happy and excited to be, 

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sitting down with these two 
wonderful gentlemen, my feet are

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tired. 
So tired, I also miss Ross, this

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is the first podcast we've done 
without Ross. 

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So Ross if you're listening, we 
miss you, come back, come to 

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Toronto. 
I've said it wrong. 

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I've been calling it Toronto the
whole time. 

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It's actually Toronto. 
Toronto, the t is silent or 

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TDOT? 
Yeah, something like that. 

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But anyway, it's the Collision 
conference sexually, North 

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America's largest tech Summit 
and Nori was Part of the AI for 

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Earth, transition track, which 
meant that we got a nice little 

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stipend and flown over here and 
got free Booth time, and got to 

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present to a lot of people and 
thank you Microsoft. 

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Thank you, Microsoft. 
We really appreciate that. 

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Hopefully, you're listening and 
thinking about ways to partner 

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with Nori. 
But this is not about Nori. 

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This is about carbon upcycling 
Technologies, and this is going 

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to be a really fun podcast. 
Because on our right over here 

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from the conference, we sort of 
got into the things that I love 

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to geek out about, which is 
like, Honest carbon lifecycle 

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accounting and not making claims
that you can't substantiate and 

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like, all right, what's actually
going to scale quickly and what 

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makes sense? 
And how do we not demonize the 

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entire fossil fuel industry, but
use some of their great minds 

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and power to change for good. 
So if you want to keep listening

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to that, sort of banter and 
conversation, don't hang up and 

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don't go anywhere hanging up, 
he's got eyes that will hang up 

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okay, we're not going to cut 
that with this is to right we've

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Approve. 
Send her. 

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Here's the CEO of carbon 
upcycling Technologies. 

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He's a really great guy. 
He's listen to some podcasts. 

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I think so he's like, yeah, I 
want to get on that. 

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Yes, we want you on that. 
So how about we start a probe 

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with your story? 
How did you get to where you 

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are? 
Why are you doing what you're 

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doing? 
Why are you here on this podcast

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today? 
Other than giving me your 

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jacket? 
So that I wasn't cold and 

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cranky. 
You're welcome, you. 

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Thank you so much. 
Hi guys, thanks Kristoff and I 

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like cilantro for hosting me. 
And and I guess likewise, you 

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know, we're from the western 
part of Canada. 

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So we don't get a lot of chances
to come out to Toronto and 

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definitely don't get to come out
to Tech conferences like 

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Collision. 
So it's been a really good 

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experience the last couple of 
days very serendipitous meetings

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and overall I think why I'm here
is probably, because you're the 

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only other two people in the 
city that could geek out about 

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climate change and The technical
facets of that the way I'd like 

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to but to give you an idea of 
the story. 

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So I'm from India, originally 
moved around a lot and actually 

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grew up in Kuwait. 
I moved out there when I was 

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eight. 
So I've been through my family 

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exposed to oil and gas my entire
life and that's really where I 

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thought was going and then went 
to Atlanta, Georgia Tech for my 

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undergrad moved out to Canada 
thereafter like in 2010 right at

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the end of the mortgage crisis 
and as luck would have it 

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somehow got to 60 year olds in 
the I'll patch to start a clean 

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tech company with me in 2014. 
So it's been an interesting ride

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and I think what's been really 
encouraging is to see the level 

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of awareness and, and the 
momentum and motivation that's 

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coming in with the newer 
generation. 

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Like people, you know, basically
in our age groups, and frankly, 

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others as well, but there's 
definitely kind of a growing 

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tide around, not just protesting
climate change or protesting, 

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all these things that are 
happening from what we've done 

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since the early 1800s but 
actually taking Tangible steps 

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to address that and create a 
closed loop. 

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So, pretty excited to talk about
that. 

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A bit more in geek out. 
I love that. 

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So before you took the stage at 
the planet text age and 

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collision yesterday Minister, 
Catherine McKenna was onstage. 

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She's the minister of 
environment and climate, right? 

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That's Canada. 
And I was kind of grumpily and 

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like, all right, I don't want to
be in another Tech conference. 

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I just was been on the road, I 
think I've been in Canada, it 

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feels like all month and I was 
just a Montrell but she was just

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so I just so grateful for her 
presence because she was named 

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dropping things. 
Like I think she might have even

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mentioned you guys, and other 
carbon capture or carbon just 

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solution provider. 
She said, she says, this is the 

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time we have to act on climate 
now and that made me feel 

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really, I don't know. 
Welcomed, like so I went down 

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and hunt her down behind stage. 
It wouldn't talk to her like he 

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did with me, I guess. 
Yeah, I did. 

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Yes. 
I'm tender moment. 

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I thought you were going to say 
that. 

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One of the things that you told 
me last night was like, She was 

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like it's you guys, the 
technology providers the 

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entrepreneurs who are going to 
get this, right? 

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You're going to figure it out, 
right? 

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And she's like, we need you. 
So, thank you, mr. 

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McKenna, if you ever hear this 
because that gave me the 

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empowerment to say, okay, I 
really think we have a good idea

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and we just need to share that 
with you. 

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So I went up to her how to brief
conversation because her staff 

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was rushing her away to a press 
conference. 

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But anyways, the point is 
solution providers and you are 

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one of those solution providers.
So, I do agree with you, we need

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to just while protesting and 
bringing awareness is important.

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It is also very important to 
say, okay, well now what you got

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us riled up and angry and 
wanting to act. 

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How what is the agency that we 
can take? 

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So why don't you tell us a 
little bit about carbon 

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upcycling? 
Yeah, no. 

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And that's an excellent point, I
think, one of the challenges and

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I guess being trained as an 
engineer, you're always taught 

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to think about things in 
Practical terms and I think the 

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idea is to be able to channel 
some of that movement and 

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motivation. 
Towards something that's 

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actually productive and 
long-lasting, right? 

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Like you don't just want to get 
worked up one day and lose that 

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over a day or two. 
But basically, what we've done 

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is started the company in 2014 
with the intent of basically 

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taking pollution and creating 
the materials of tomorrow. 

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So one of the things that we've 
said is using today's pollution 

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to make the materials of 
tomorrow, and and we think that 

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the way to do that is not to 
take a traditional kind of 

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logical pathway around. 
How to tackle CO2. 

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So you know to start the No 
Doubt session here. 

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You know, carbon dioxide is a 
very stable molecule, right? 

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Like it's got two double bonds 
from chemistry back in high 

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school, you can remember, double
bond is a covalent ionic 

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actually doesn't matter by 
definition. 

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I think, you know, there's ions 
that are being transferred, but 

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the challenge is the fact that 
everything that we burn becomes 

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CO2 for a reason like just like 
humans nature takes the path of 

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least resistance. 
And CO2 is the most stable thing

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we can produce from 
hydrocarbons. 

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And so since the 1820s, when the
first locomotive and the first 

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industrial engine was produced 
back in the UK, we've been 

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burning coal. 
We've been burning wood even 

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before that for thousands of 
years and all of that is been in

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this uncontrolled Loop like 
feeding the atmosphere. 

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And so the challenge that we 
have now and and how people are 

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looking at renewable energy, as 
kind of being this godsend, 

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that's going to solve all of 
this is I think what we need to 

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keep in mind is the most 
efficient engines. 

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We make right now or less than 
40 percent efficient, you need 

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to essentially reverse. 
All of the emissions from 1820 

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on with renewable energy, that 
we're going to produce between 

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now and twenty one hundred. 
And some of the new ipcc Reports

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say that even that won't be 
enough like we are already 

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Beyond, you know, just reducing 
those emissions. 

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We have to actually remove some 
of the stuff that's already out 

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there so yeah, yeah because also
I don't love it when people just

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talk about efficiency and like 
oh let's improve the efficiency 

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and get more out of Of the 
carbon we use? 

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Well, yeah, that's part of it. 
But it's not the whole story 

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because you could be super 
efficient, but then everybody 

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all of a sudden is burning 
everything. 

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And then you still like if you 
scale up the magnitude but 

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you're more efficient with, it 
doesn't really solve the 

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outcome, which is decreasing 
total CO2. 

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That's right, right? 
And that can be the jevons 

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Paradox, right? 
So if you get more efficient, 

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and actually can use more energy
than you're going to, just like 

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fuel economy and cars, like the 
more fuel-efficient cars, get 

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the more we drive, the bigger 
engines, we get everyone now has

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an SUV instead of a A small Ford
Focus doesn't change the 

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outcome. 
Yeah. 

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Okay so we're eight minutes and 
and I have no idea what carbon 

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upcycling Technologies does but 
I want to zero in on a word 

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upcycling. 
That's like the stepsister that 

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we don't talk about of recycling
but like it seems like that's 

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core to what your technology is 
about. 

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Yeah, we're hoping that you know
up cycling has a Cinderella 

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moment sometime in the future 
but you're right. 

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I think essentially what we do 
is we fix carbon emissions into 

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a solid product. 
So we need a second feedstock. 

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That's A cheaply and abundantly 
available so we can make fly ash

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from coal. 
Power plants from would plants 

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incinerators essentially that 
burn sawdust and Pulp we can 

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take coal petroleum Coke. 
We can essentially put that into

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a reactor with CO2 activate that
so that it acts as a sponge for 

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the CO2. 
And what we've shown over the 

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last four or five years is that,
that activation and that gluing 

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process essentially chemical 
adsorption for the legendary 

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ocean with the D adsorption with
Addie. 

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Yes, that takes a lot less 
energy than Reducing CO2. 

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Meaning converting it into 
something like syngas or a 

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precursor for a biofuel or 
bioplastic. 

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So from an energy standpoint, 
you're not anymore. 

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Kind of going back, you're not 
trying to convert that CO2 back 

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into a hydrocarbon, your rather 
just gluing it onto something 

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else. 
That's really abundantly 

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available. 
And what we found through our 

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work is that as this material 
absorbs CO2, the actual physical

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characteristics of that material
changes. 

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So it ends up becoming a 
nanomaterial meaning instead. 

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Being somewhat similar to a 
strand of hair which is about 10

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microns. 
It'll be a thousand times 

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thinner than this, the thinnest 
kind of hair you might find and 

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at that level, these things act 
differently. 

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So these materials once they get
to that Dimension can be used in

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materials like Plastics and 
concrete and Coatings even a 

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solar cells and actually improve
the performance of what they do.

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And so this is what we see is 
almost like a cheat code, right?

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Like we think that we don't just
have to look at Carbon emissions

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as kind of a problem within it. 
We need to combine that problem 

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with the bigger problem of how 
efficient are we with our 

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materials? 
And we think that by bridging 

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that using this kind of a 
technology, we're helping people

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make behaviourally, kind of 
astute choices, and, and become 

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more efficient day-to-day. 
And we're helping remove carbon 

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in the atmosphere, because it's 
acting as a, as a good 

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ingredient for our technology. 
So I think I'm tracking that 

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makes sense. 
You've got some adsorption 

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process. 
You're able to make this new 

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material to To change the 
materials that you can create 

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new materials, right? 
And so but you talked about 

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individuals but also businesses.
What exactly is your business 

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model at? 
What are you guys working on? 

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Yeah, so we are in industrial 
technology like we think that 

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the problem of carbon emissions 
is at least in part because of 

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industrial emissions and scale 
up. 

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And so we think that the 
solution at least in some part 

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has to be industrial. 
So we have basically reactor, we

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have one up in the north west of
Calgary whenever you guys Brave 

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the cold and come out there, no.
All you come out in July When 

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it's nice and warm, I just got 
cranky. 

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00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,600
I mentioned the jacket that we 
were outside waiting for a lift 

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00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,700
and I got really cranky guys. 
I'm from Miami. 

235
00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:38,700
I don't like the cold. 
I'm ready. 

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00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:40,500
Canadians out here. 
It was actually kind of a 

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lukewarm day. 
Yeah, whatever. 

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This is the girl from Miami. 
Yeah. 

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00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:47,800
But yeah like you know, so we've
got a unit right now up in 

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00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,400
Calgary which is literally about
20 feet long and about 7 feet in

241
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,600
diameter. 
So it's a large unit and that 

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00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,500
can capture roughly 100 kg of 
CO2 a day and produce a ton of 

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00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,700
XO 1,000 kilos of product. 
We're competing in the carbon X 

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00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:05,000
prize and we're scaling that up 
and are there seven times. 

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So by the end of this year we'll
have something slightly bigger 

246
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,300
than that. 
And essentially our business 

247
00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:12,900
model is to show that this 
technology is D. 

248
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Risked enough that very very 
large operators. 

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Like cement companies, 
infrastructure companies 

250
00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:20,600
companies that make Plastics at 
scale. 

251
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,700
For example, can essentially say
look like we know that there is 

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a stable source for this, this 
can scale viably for use around 

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the world and then Since the 
technology to them. 

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00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:33,900
So that they put this as part of
their own operations or 

255
00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:36,100
potentially become a vendor to 
them directly. 

256
00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:40,700
So you were telling me a little 
bit yesterday about some process

257
00:12:40,700 --> 00:12:43,500
or Pilot that you're about to do
with creating products. 

258
00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:45,100
Can you talk about that? 
Yeah. 

259
00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:49,400
So at the carbon conversion 
Center in Alberta were 

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00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,100
essentially scaling with the 
knowledge that there are a 

261
00:12:53,108 --> 00:12:56,200
couple of concrete companies 
locally that have committed to 

262
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,500
using our product. 
If we can churn out the scale 

263
00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:00,400
that we're currently, 
Anticipating. 

264
00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:03,800
So the idea there is to show 
from start to finish that we're 

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taking carbon from a polluting 
Source, like a natural gas power

266
00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:08,200
plant. 
We're taking a slipstream off of

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00:13:08,208 --> 00:13:12,800
that converting that carbon 
directly into the solid form and

268
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,900
then selling it to a local 
construction company so that 

269
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:17,800
they can use it in projects 
around the downtown core. 

270
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,000
What is that replacing of what 
they were currently using? 

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00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:24,500
In this instance, our objective 
is to replace cement and 

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00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:25,300
concrete. 
Yeah. 

273
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,200
What does that total decrease? 
Just to give us a paint. 

274
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,700
The Broader picture here, the 
concrete that's coming out of 

275
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:35,300
carbon up, cycling that you guys
are producing versus 

276
00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:39,300
conventional concrete. 
Is it sequestering Carbon on net

277
00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:44,600
if not what is the carbon saved 
or voided that we're getting so 

278
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,200
cement currently on a global 
scale accounts for about eight 

279
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,000
percent of the global emissions.
So 34 gigatons you're talking 

280
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,300
about 8% of that coming from 
production and use of cement. 

281
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,500
There's a lot of work recently 
that cement companies have done.

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00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,000
In to look at secondary 
cementitious materials, so they 

283
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,600
call them sems. 
So these are other materials 

284
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,300
that you can use in place of 
cement and still get to 

285
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,400
something that serves a 
structural purpose. 

286
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,200
One of the key areas of interest
is materials like fly out. 

287
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:16,400
So when you burn coal, there 
were a tease and coal which are 

288
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,000
basically minerals that were 
intricately embedded in the 

289
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000
carbon frame work and they don't
burn like there. 

290
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,700
There are very stable. 
Yeah, exactly. 

291
00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:28,300
So they get collected in these 
silos and then companies 

292
00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,200
concrete companies and sometimes
Brokers will sell this fly ash 

293
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,100
to local construction companies.
So what we have found is that we

294
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:38,800
can use that fly ash as an 
adsorbent or a sponge for the 

295
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,100
CO2 and in turn improve the 
performance of that Ash within 

296
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:46,000
the concrete mix. 
So to give you kind of a rule of

297
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,100
thumb. 
What we're saying is that based 

298
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:50,700
on the results that we've seen 
over 2018 with a couple of our 

299
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,600
partners, we could potentially 
reduce the carbon emissions 

300
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,300
associated with a cubic meter or
cubic yard of concrete by up to 

301
00:14:57,300 --> 00:15:00,600
20% by using our technology. 
Lodging place of what they use 

302
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,200
currently. 
Yeah. 

303
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,200
In 20% of eight percent of 
global emissions is significant 

304
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:07,400
More Than A Drop in a bucket. 
And one of the things that I 

305
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,000
love about your approach is it's
not necessarily A do this 

306
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,400
because it's good for the 
environment. 

307
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,800
It's do this because it's good 
for your bottom line. 

308
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,200
You're getting a product which 
is more durable longer-lasting 

309
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:20,400
than you'd be silly. 
Not to. 

310
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,400
Is that generally accurate? 
We hope so. 

311
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:25,900
You know, every step of the way,
we have to keep proving those 

312
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:28,900
assumptions but that's 
definitely been our driver is 

313
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,800
Think that carbon policy writ 
large, like globally has not 

314
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,200
gone far enough to really Drive 
industrial players to change how

315
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,000
they do business. 
So in the interim tell policy 

316
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,200
catches up or if the global 
sentiment gets to a point where 

317
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,800
there is a carbon tax around the
world or something like that. 

318
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:48,000
The onus is on the entrepreneur 
to make a business case for 

319
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,200
today. 
We can't just keep waiting till 

320
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,200
twenty Thirty and say that, you 
know, everyone's going to like 

321
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,300
to Justin Trudeau. 
And we're going to have a carbon

322
00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:56,400
tax around the world, kind of 
thing. 

323
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,700
So, from our perspective, we 
have to live In today and we 

324
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:03,500
think that this is really the 
only way to gain and keep 

325
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,600
interest of some of the 
incumbents that dominate the 

326
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,500
industry. 
There are so many like little 

327
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:12,400
trails and bathe that you have 
laid out for me. 

328
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,700
So I'm going to keep with the 
most common thread. 

329
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:16,500
The recent one was the politics 
side. 

330
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:21,000
Christiana figueres. 
Was there at the event yesterday

331
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,800
and she took stage, but before 
she took stage, I love that 

332
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,900
Collision did this. 
They did like they have a really

333
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:31,500
small, like intimate open sir. 
On the middle of this exhibition

334
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,100
circle of benches and have Q&A 
stage. 

335
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:36,200
She came on and we got there 
early enough that we were able 

336
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,800
to Kristoff and I sit there and 
then asked for the mic, maybe 

337
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,900
three questions were asked was 
30 minutes. 

338
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:46,700
And the one that I asked her 
was, what is it that we can do 

339
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:49,400
these entrepreneurs that are 
providing Solutions and can act 

340
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,400
really quickly? 
Really nimbly, how do we 

341
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,300
interact best with policymakers 
and the private sector? 

342
00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:58,800
Who move a little slower 
policymakers way? 

343
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,600
Slower than Private sector a 
little faster than that and then

344
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,700
you have these boots on the 
ground, entrepreneurs, how do we

345
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:05,099
do that? 
And she painted this picture 

346
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:07,599
that I thought was helpful for 
me interested in your take 

347
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:11,300
Kristoff, which is okay. 
Well, the Paris agreement came 

348
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:14,500
out after the private sector was
kind of saying we need something

349
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:18,400
more certain we need to have a 
more concrete that we can act on

350
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:21,000
and then the politicians came 
together and worked on the Paris

351
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,900
agreement. 
And now she said it, she said 

352
00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:25,599
it's a spiral that's building up
so it might be coming back 

353
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:27,200
around again. 
Which is how did the 

354
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,400
entrepreneurs then work with the
private sector? 

355
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,600
And then Loop it back to the 
policymakers that we build on 

356
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,600
our policies. 
So given that in mind, what 

357
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,500
might policy be in the next run 
that can enable you guys some 

358
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:45,000
more really right off the bat. 
And this is something that we 

359
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,300
thought about a bit. 
If every government said that 

360
00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:51,500
10% of their infrastructure 
spending or procurement was 

361
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,500
focused on solutions, that have 
a net carbon benefit relative to

362
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,600
what they use currently adding 
that would be some of the most 

363
00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:03,900
Reverse practical, I guess, 
change that would really speed 

364
00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:07,900
things up because there's not 
enough capacity in the carbon 

365
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:12,400
utilization or just in the green
clean tech space, in general, to

366
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,100
even meet that demand, like that
would still need a surge of 

367
00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:16,800
activity. 
It would, it would drive a lot 

368
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,300
of innovation and scale, but 
that would be enough that it 

369
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:24,000
would make a lot of these 
companies get past that startup 

370
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,800
level. 
Get into the growth stage and 

371
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,100
become well-established 
companies in their own, right? 

372
00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:30,600
So it's a calculated. 
You know, you don't have to 

373
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:33,800
change everything all at once. 
And this is actually something I

374
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,600
really admire about the Rocky 
Mountain Institute like the 

375
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,900
Amory Lovins crew is outstanding
and how they talk about 

376
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:43,300
pragmatic Progressive changes 
and how you know if you did ten 

377
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:46,500
percent one year and you just 
build compound interest on a 

378
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:47,200
scent. 
What? 

379
00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:50,500
So let's say, 10% of all the 
procurement that people do it on

380
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,800
construction. 
How to component that they said 

381
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,600
requires a carbon negative 
solution or a carbon negative 

382
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,800
element. 
So if 10% of all roads in 

383
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,900
California, Ten percent of all 
the construction projects are 

384
00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:05,000
public publicly funded 
construction projects in Canada.

385
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:08,800
Suddenly, we're introducing 
carbon Tech or, you know, some 

386
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,700
kind of Green Technology that 
would move the needle quite 

387
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:14,400
significantly and then you can 
build on that every year. 

388
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,000
You know, nuts that forward and 
you know it's a risk but it's 

389
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,800
calculated and it's significant 
in terms of the market potential

390
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,000
that it generates right away. 
I like we're saying I want to 

391
00:19:26,008 --> 00:19:28,400
spill out a little bit and 
respond to some of the things 

392
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,700
you're saying and then I said 
some of the things you were 

393
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:33,600
saying Alessandra first, a 
quibble. 

394
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,000
I don't like considering your 
technology. 

395
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,900
Carbon - thank you so much 
Kristoff. 

396
00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:42,600
I'm like, holding myself back 
because because it is reducing 

397
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,700
the flow of carbon to the 
atmosphere, but it's not when I 

398
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:48,600
think carbon - then I think 
taking it back out of the 

399
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,100
atmosphere. 
So this is a way to reduce and 

400
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,500
to be quite honest. 
I hope it doesn't catch on in 

401
00:19:54,508 --> 00:19:57,000
the cement industry because 
until the cement industry has 

402
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,400
found a way on net to get 
access. 

403
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:02,200
As CO2 out of the atmosphere and
store it in the product, I don't

404
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,200
consider it carbon-. 
However, I do 100% commend 

405
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,900
everything that you're doing as 
getting the pollutant out of the

406
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:14,000
supply chain. 
And so, in your policy, I'm so 

407
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,100
on board because it's like, what
do we need to do to actually 

408
00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:19,400
solve climate change? 
We need to reduce the flow of 

409
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,700
carbon to the atmosphere. 
We need to retain the carbon in 

410
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:24,900
the stocks where it is and we 
need to remove the excess and 

411
00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:27,800
all of that can be done when 
we're focused on actually 

412
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,300
reducing the pollutant. 
You're so it's like they're 

413
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,400
these existing cement plants. 
People are always going to use 

414
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,700
cement you know we think of like
where does that 8%? 

415
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:38,300
Come a lot of it comes from 
making the clinker right, which 

416
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:41,100
we didn't even talk about, but 
you have to somehow get the lime

417
00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:43,000
out of the Limestone because 
that's what binds all this 

418
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,600
together. 
They're interesting ideas around

419
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,700
how to reduce the carbon there 
and certainly Pro that the other

420
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:53,200
direction where I wanted to go 
to is that absolutely like 

421
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:59,200
things change slowly and things 
need to be proven at scale and 

422
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,600
So, you were at one point, a 
bright-eyed PhD student at 

423
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,800
Georgia Tech. 
I did my undergrad there 

424
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,200
actually as well, cool, okay as 
well or wait. 

425
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,200
So yeah, I actually quit my 
Master's. 

426
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,500
I haven't actually done. 
Grad school Masters drop out 

427
00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:16,500
even better. 
You know that that's a sign of 

428
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,700
like true dedication to working 
on Solutions. 

429
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:22,300
But anyway you were connected to
things that happened at the lab 

430
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:27,200
scale and then just going 
something up that works at Point

431
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,000
1. 
Ton a day scale which is 

432
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,000
capturing Slipstream which 
basically for those who don't 

433
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,500
know what a slipstream is you're
connected to a power plant which

434
00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,200
is spewing out, a bunch of 
pollution and you grab a bit of 

435
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,700
that and then figure out how to 
do things with it in order to 

436
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:43,500
make a viable product and part 
of the learning along that way, 

437
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:46,300
is how can we do more of that? 
But let's let's throw some hard 

438
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,800
cold map out there. 
A typical coal-fired power, 

439
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,100
plant emits 20,000 tons of CO2 a
day. 

440
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:55,100
Alright? 
And so, I guess this is a many 

441
00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:58,100
part question, but I mean, it's 
kind of in the spirit of first 

442
00:21:58,100 --> 00:22:00,300
of all, Cole's going to go away.
Maybe it's going away more 

443
00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:02,500
quickly than we thought it 
would. 

444
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,700
And that's great because we need
to get carbon out of the supply 

445
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,100
chain and maybe find ways to do 
natural gas, maybe you find 

446
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:12,300
other metallurgical coal which 
is by the way everyone who's 

447
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,100
very Pro solar always forgets 
this like you need to burn coal 

448
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:17,300
to make solar, it's 
metallurgical coal. 

449
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:19,800
So like stop saying, solars, 
100%, carbon free. 

450
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,000
It isn't. 
Okay. 

451
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,100
I'm just feeling right now 
because it's been a long day. 

452
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,500
So, you want to scale up, but if
you're dealing with a full like 

453
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:30,400
gigawatt size, coal-fired power 
plant, you have 80,000 tons 

454
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,800
needed to do something with and 
so, is that even the right scale

455
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:35,300
on? 
Are you better off at cement 

456
00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:37,100
plants? 
Are there variations of where 

457
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:40,000
we're all this fits? 
But it's one of those questions 

458
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,800
like how is this all going to 
fit and is it as good as it 

459
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,800
seems to be or not? 
Yeah, so I'm probably going to 

460
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,900
respond with this repeal of my 
own but very firstly, I think 

461
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:54,900
the point that you made about 
the carbon - peace. 

462
00:22:55,900 --> 00:22:58,200
I don't know if the right 
terminology would be to say 

463
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,400
carbon efficient. 
But I think it is very important

464
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:03,000
and this is actually a pet peeve
of mine. 

465
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,700
In the sense that I think all of
us in this small field is 

466
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,500
growing need to come up with a 
terminology that we all agree 

467
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:09,400
on. 
Because I think the point you 

468
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,500
made is an excellent one. 
I do agree with you that this is

469
00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:16,100
not a carbon - technology if you
think about it from that 

470
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,700
technical standpoint. 
However, when we're going out 

471
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:21,800
and pitching and there's a broad
set of audience in the field, 

472
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,900
it's sometimes dilutes the 
Precision of the words that we 

473
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:30,200
use and I think as a field if we
started to study Other days that

474
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,900
that would be a service to 
everyone. 

475
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,200
So I commend you for correcting 
me on that. 

476
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,400
And I would say, you know, I 
would say because it's better 

477
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,900
than business as usual and maybe
carbon efficient or something 

478
00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:42,000
along those lines. 
Might be a better way to show 

479
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,400
where we fit having said all 
that I think to get to your 

480
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,000
question about. 
How do you tackle something of 

481
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,000
the scale of what a conventional
Coal Power Plant does, I'll go 

482
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000
back to something. 
I've heard Amory Lovins say, I'm

483
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,300
not sure if he's taking it from 
something, but he says when you 

484
00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:58,100
can't solve a problem with in a 
box you have to make the Box 

485
00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:00,800
bigger and this Might also be 
something Einstein said 

486
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,600
actually, but one of the 
interesting things about that is

487
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:07,200
we do think that some of these 
points were submissions in terms

488
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,200
of just the carbon emissions at 
that specific area, 

489
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,100
geographically spatially is a 
really big problem and probably 

490
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:16,700
the only way that you can get 
two hundred percent reduction of

491
00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:21,100
that twenty thousand tons is by 
using electrochemical method. 

492
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:24,500
So you have to essentially 
reverse combustion or reverse, 

493
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:27,100
the oxidation of carbon, like 
you have to somehow go back to 

494
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:28,900
something like a fuel or 
something like that. 

495
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,500
And We think that that can only 
happen if there's adoption of 

496
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:36,000
renewable at scale so much more 
practical Target before, you 

497
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,600
know Renewables, take over if 
ever is to shoot for a 

498
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,700
meaningful reduction in that 
20,000 tons. 

499
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:45,100
So from our perspective for 
roughly speaking, there's only 

500
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:48,700
about a ton or so fly ash 
produced for every 10 or 20, 

501
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:51,800
tons of CO2 depending on how 
efficient your processes and how

502
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,100
contaminated your coal seam is 
just geologically speaking. 

503
00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:59,100
So the math, in our case, will 
never ever get even remotely 

504
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:00,900
close. 
Looks like we'll be at best, 

505
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:04,600
maybe capturing 5,000 or 6,000 
of that. 20,000 tons a day with 

506
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,200
the absorption system that we 
have. 

507
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,100
What we're saying though. 
Is that if that fly ash, once it

508
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:12,700
captures, you know, ten twenty, 
thirty percent of that. 

509
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:16,400
CO2 is now going in and on the 
back end replacing something 

510
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,700
like cement, which has a carbon 
emission factor of .8 or Point, 

511
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,800
85, kg per kg of cement. 
Now, you're getting a knock-on 

512
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,700
benefit that adds on to what you
did on that. 10. 

513
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:33,700
So from my perspective I think 
you know a lot of how you answer

514
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,600
a question is determined by how 
the question is asked? 

515
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,500
And and we don't think that the 
way to tackle, 34 Giga tons is 

516
00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:43,100
to pinpoint every single place 
that has twenty thousand or 

517
00:25:43,108 --> 00:25:44,900
hundred thousand or million tons
of CO2. 

518
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,300
It's to look at the entire 
society and say where can we 

519
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,700
become more sustainable with our
use of concrete? 

520
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,000
Where can we be more useful with
some of the daily materials that

521
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,900
we use? 
Can we increase the life cycle 

522
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,400
so that instead of having To do 
something every day. 

523
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,400
We can do it every two days or 
three days and, and taking that 

524
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,200
systemic approach is a much more
effective way of creating change

525
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,100
and, and also more Equitable way
where everyone can play a part 

526
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:12,700
in our opinion, or in my 
opinion. 

527
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,200
Because if we're going to keep 
targeting specific areas and 

528
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,900
specific players that are, you 
know, they're not around to 

529
00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:22,200
admit like you know, if a cement
plant today could wave a magic 

530
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,900
wand and get rid of all their 
emissions. 

531
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:26,000
There's no reason why they 
wouldn't. 

532
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,200
Like it doesn't serve any 
purpose except to meet a demand 

533
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,900
that our own Society is created 
and so instead of villainizing 

534
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:36,400
them and I'm focusing on them, I
think taking a systems kind of 

535
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,800
wide approach is probably a lot 
more effective and one of the 

536
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,400
things that I guess from a 
tangible perspective like carbon

537
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,700
efficient Technologies are in 
General, trying to trying to 

538
00:26:46,708 --> 00:26:51,500
facilitate totally Talk to us 
about manholes. 

539
00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:54,500
Yeah. 
So it's I just wanted to say I 

540
00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:56,800
kind of just soft and be our 
voice. 

541
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,800
Yeah I can't follow that up so 
I'll stick to my normal voice. 

542
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,400
Yeah. 
So it's been interesting for us 

543
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,300
like the journey that we've 
taken the nanomaterials that 

544
00:27:06,308 --> 00:27:09,100
were making have a range of 
different applications and and 

545
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,900
one of the things I was told to 
us early on is like we're 

546
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:14,000
basically a solution looking for
a problem. 

547
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,800
And so through the trade 
Commissioners Office, that the 

548
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,600
Canadians run, In Denver, we got
connected to a company and 

549
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,800
infrastructure company that 
makes manholes in grease 

550
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,200
interceptors. 
So these are tanks at the back 

551
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,100
of any fast food joint, you hit 
up at the back of the kitchen 

552
00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:31,400
under the sink. 
They'll usually have a concrete 

553
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,800
or fiberglass tank, that stores 
a lot of the oils and grease 

554
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,700
that came from the fires and 
things like that. 

555
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:41,000
And these oils carry microbes. 
That essentially create hydrogen

556
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,600
sulfide and sulfuric acid, which
can eat through concrete, pretty

557
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,700
radically, and very, very kind 
of in an accelerated fashion. 

558
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,600
So what this, He was looking for
is a cost-effective way to make 

559
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,800
these tanks last longer. 
They said that they were going 

560
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,300
out to a couple of these joints 
and the customer said, nah, you 

561
00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:58,700
know, we don't want to use 
concrete anymore. 

562
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:00,900
We'll use something that's four 
five. 

563
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:04,000
Seven times more expensive, but 
we know it last longer because 

564
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,200
it's, it's essentially 
corrosion-proof. 

565
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:09,500
So the, the alternative that the
concrete guys were looking for 

566
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,100
is some kind of a surface 
treatment, basically a paint 

567
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,400
that they could apply to their 
concrete tanks to provide a 

568
00:28:14,408 --> 00:28:17,500
corrosion barrier. 
So through 2016, we work with 

569
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:19,700
this company in Denver. 
They gave us A lot of Market 

570
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:22,900
feedback they give us kind of 
these very stringent guidelines 

571
00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:25,900
for what they would pay and how 
they want to apply it. 

572
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:29,900
And just in in the fall of 2017,
right? 

573
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:33,400
Before Halloween, we went down, 
we coded a couple of Tanks. 

574
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:34,900
One of them got installed at a 
Red Lobster. 

575
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:38,500
Another at a Dunkin Donuts on 
the opposite Coast when 

576
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,500
infinitely in one in Portland, 
and they started buying that 

577
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:44,200
product commercially since April
of that year. 

578
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,800
So it was, It was kind of an 
interesting story in the sense 

579
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,300
that we've This carbon derived 
coding which we call the alpha 

580
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:55,900
carbon product line and it's 
being used in some of the 

581
00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:59,500
greasiest grease interceptors. 
You might see in the world but 

582
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:02,900
not the sexiest way to start 
making a steak for carbon Tech 

583
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:06,100
and things like that. 
But it was practical, it's being

584
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:10,100
driven by economic kind of 
arguments like, you know, keep 

585
00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:11,900
in mind, like most of our work 
right now. 

586
00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:15,800
Incidentally is in Miami and and
Miami-Dade is not using us 

587
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,900
because well, at least not 
currently, they're not using us.

588
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,200
Because we're carbon a carbon 
efficient solution. 

589
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,100
But rather because we're 
cost-effective like we're easy 

590
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:29,800
to apply the customer or the 
contractor uses us whenever they

591
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,300
can because there's no vocs. 
There's no volatile organic 

592
00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:35,800
content that can create toxic 
emissions for guys. 

593
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,800
Breathing this stuff, it's 
cheap. 

594
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,100
It's sets quickly, so they can 
be done with the job in four 

595
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:42,200
hours instead of having to take 
a full day on site. 

596
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:44,900
So there's a few of those 
practical advantages that are 

597
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:48,700
really kind of Paving the way 
for this to get adopted and you 

598
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:50,700
know, one of the I've been 
bugging Kristoff about for the 

599
00:29:50,708 --> 00:29:53,600
last four months. 
Is, how do we get going back to 

600
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,000
the point about government 
procurement and policymakers 

601
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,200
that you were talking about 
Alexandria? 

602
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,000
Like, how do we get people to 
start adopting? 

603
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,400
Some of these kind of solutions 
which are practical like they 

604
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,700
were ready, buying this stuff, 
how do we get them to use 

605
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:07,700
something and accelerate the 
path to becoming an approved 

606
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:10,000
product vendor? 
And you know, getting on these 

607
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:13,500
exclusive list that were kind of
updated back in 2005? 

608
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,200
Well, I'll tell you why 
Miami-Dade isn't using it 

609
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,600
because it's not sexy. 
Just kidding. 

610
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:19,900
Haha. 
Love you guys. 

611
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:23,100
I just want to commend you 
because like what? 

612
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:25,100
You just described from 
entrepreneur to entrepreneur. 

613
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:27,400
Like you need to find the 
product Market fit and then you 

614
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,200
need to scale from there, and 
absolutely. 

615
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,200
Like, if you work in a 
government procurement office 

616
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,800
right now, and you are looking 
at, innovative ways to drive 

617
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:40,000
reductions in carbon across a 
jurisdiction. 

618
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,200
Like, you should absolutely get 
in touch with a perv and carbon 

619
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,300
upcycling Technologies and take 
the risk and figure out that 

620
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:50,800
manholes is just the beginning. 
And it seems like a first step 

621
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,200
in a multi-pronged approach of 
finding carbon efficient, carbon

622
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,800
beneficial. 
Maybe we've played around with 

623
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,800
that, not sure carbon reductive,
I don't know, not yet carbon -, 

624
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,600
but whatever carbon Tech 
products. 

625
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:10,400
So my next question for you is 
what comes after manholes, what 

626
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,300
we're hoping is the concrete 
itself. 

627
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:16,800
So the unit that we're building 
out in Calgary and we hope will 

628
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,800
be used ubiquitously around the 
And in five, or ten years is 

629
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,100
basically to replace cement with
a secondary cementitious 

630
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:25,500
material. 
If I actually we're talking 

631
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:27,200
about. 
We think that that's a really 

632
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,000
exciting opportunity. 
We just came back from a 

633
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,800
plug-and-play Venturi vent over 
in Stuttgart in Germany. 

634
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,000
Where we met with a couple of 
car manufacturers, there about 

635
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,700
some of the internal car parts 
that are made of plastic. 

636
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:42,400
And how do we get some of these 
carbon embedded additives, like 

637
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,600
ours into some of those parts to
reduce the footprint and 

638
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,300
potentially to improve 
performance as well? 

639
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:50,200
So you know, really Going back 
to the point that you were 

640
00:31:50,208 --> 00:31:55,200
making Kristoff about Market. 
Pull, we can only kind of direct

641
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,700
our sales to see where the winds
blowing and and use it. 

642
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:00,500
Well, so where this goes, if 
you'd asked me that question, 

643
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:02,600
six months ago, you said 
absolutely plastic like, that's 

644
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,700
where we're going. 
And the Winds of slow down on 

645
00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:07,300
that front for his in the last 
like a line out of the graduate.

646
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,700
But I think what we're trying to
do is really just increase 

647
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:15,800
awareness and and tap into some 
of the momentum that's building 

648
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,400
in this space. 
But ultimately, what we want to 

649
00:32:18,408 --> 00:32:22,900
do is Is show, people tangible 
examples of carbon being 

650
00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:26,300
sequestered into a real product.
We think that that's going to 

651
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:30,900
really initiate a whole bunch of
conversations and creative 

652
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:33,900
thoughts that maybe aren't that 
accessible today. 

653
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,300
And and you know, if that does, 
you know, spurt some kind of 

654
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:41,500
momentum and conversations that 
could potentially go towards the

655
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:43,200
upward spiral that you're 
talking about Alexandra. 

656
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,900
Like we think that we need to 
make this accessible to people 

657
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:50,100
like we need to make it real and
and that's The biggest challenge

658
00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:55,000
in the is climate change or you 
know, global warming kind of 

659
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,400
feel writ large is how do you 
make this an urgent problem and 

660
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,000
how do you give them actionable 
things that they can do so that,

661
00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:05,100
you know, people don't just feel
powerless and go back to 

662
00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:06,600
watching Netflix or something, 
right? 

663
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:10,100
I think it's beautiful. 
What you're, what you're saying,

664
00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:13,600
because the way that I'm seeing 
it is we have to think about 

665
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,100
carbon and atmosphere carbon 
from different approaches, 

666
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:19,200
right? 
There's okay, we we just Don't 

667
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,800
admit, right? 
We stopped emitting more then 

668
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,800
there's okay. 
We reuse it as much as we can. 

669
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,600
We upcycle we like extend the 
lifespan of that, CO2 molecule 

670
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,700
or carbon molecule, right? 
Because it goes from gaseous 

671
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:34,100
State solid and we just keep 
cycling through that. 

672
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:37,400
And then we also for a period of
time to restore to healthy 

673
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,500
levels, maybe 300 parts per 
million. 

674
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:44,500
We would have to remove more 
than we're reusing or emitting 

675
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,400
and this Vision that we see at 
norias. 

676
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,400
Like yeah we're just going to 
get Order and not nor itself. 

677
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,200
But us as a species smarter and 
more adaptive and more creative 

678
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,400
and Innovative with, how are we 
managing our carbon stock in the

679
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,600
atmosphere and then someone gave
me a really good question the 

680
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,200
other day and kind of poking me 
but it was a good one which is 

681
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,000
like how do you know 300 parts 
per million is the right one? 

682
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,800
I don't know. 
But like well it could be more 

683
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,199
than I could be that you're 
right, who knows. 

684
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,199
Personally I just believe we've 
got about a few Decades of 

685
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,800
sequestration that we have to do
before we can figure that out. 

686
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,199
But that would be a lovely. 
Problem to have, which is 

687
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,800
figuring out when do we stop? 
And what is the safe level of 

688
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,500
carbon dioxide that? 
We're like, the thermostat that 

689
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:28,400
we're setting for our 
atmosphere. 

690
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,600
Yeah, I had a similar experience
in a lift to where the rioters 

691
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,000
like what if you remove all the 
carbon to the atmosphere is like

692
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,600
that. 
It's not going to happen but 

693
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:38,800
well that's what we want. 
We need, it's like oxygen and 

694
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,600
nitrogen, it's in a balance, 
right? 

695
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,300
We need to make sure that it's 
in the balance that we involved,

696
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:47,199
too, and that the planet has 
had, before we started messing 

697
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,699
with it, we've brought up this 
quote before Or, but I want to 

698
00:34:49,707 --> 00:34:52,699
say it again because this guy is
such a Visionary Buckminster 

699
00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:56,500
Fuller who, at one point wrote 
pollution is nothing, but 

700
00:34:56,500 --> 00:35:00,400
resources were not harvesting 
and it I think that's true to a 

701
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,700
lot of some of the efforts that 
people like you who are on the 

702
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:07,700
good side of finding value from 
pollution and then converting 

703
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:09,600
that into things that sequester 
CO2. 

704
00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:12,600
It's not all Rosy though and 
that's why life cycles are 

705
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,600
really important. 
Sometimes you might be doing 

706
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,100
something that actually consumes
a boatload of energy and is 

707
00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:20,300
adding all this Additional load 
onto a graded. 

708
00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:22,100
Maybe you need to burn even more
fossil fuels. 

709
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,200
So I'm just kind of lay the bait
and we'll see how much of it. 

710
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,400
You take approve, but I'm 
starving. 

711
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,200
So. 
All right. 

712
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,100
Yeah my go. 
Well what matters when you're 

713
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:36,900
doing life cycles on carbon 
accounting? 

714
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:39,600
When it really talks about like 
pollution to Value like what 

715
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,200
should one think about and what 
are some of the best examples 

716
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:43,600
you can? 
Cite yourself is the best 

717
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,200
example. 
But what are some of the worst 

718
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,700
examples to Yeah I'm definitely 
not going to cite yourselves as 

719
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:52,900
a good or bad case. 
But what I will say is that 

720
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,800
generally speaking it's not 
rocket science, right? 

721
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,400
Like ultimately everything has a
mass and energy balance and 

722
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,400
ultimately what you want to show
is that you're somehow creating 

723
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,300
a valuable product without 
creating enough of a cider 

724
00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:13,800
by-product which is actually 
negating the positive impact of 

725
00:36:13,808 --> 00:36:15,300
what you did. 
So you don't want to solve 

726
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:18,600
cancer and cause Alzheimer's, or
you know what I mean? 

727
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,000
Like, yeah, you can trade one 
problem for another look at the 

728
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,100
net benefit or the net harm. 
Exactly. 

729
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:24,200
Yes. 
You have to look at the full 

730
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,500
picture, you have to be very 
quick just really hard to 

731
00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:29,800
discern where that control 
volume is. 

732
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:32,600
So thank you very simple, 
engineering a few, They're 

733
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,800
bringing back some bad memories 
from Tech right now. 

734
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,300
But all right, he dropped out 
for a reason. 

735
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:42,100
Yeah. 
You know, you mentioned the 

736
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:44,900
ambition for dropping out. 
I think there's other reasons, 

737
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:49,100
like supervisors and All that 
stuff as well but I think 

738
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,800
generally speaking, one of the 
things that you want to look for

739
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,400
is what are the key assumptions 
that went into building a model,

740
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,600
right? 
And so if people are making 

741
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,000
claims around the full use of 
renewable energy that has 

742
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,500
absolutely zero carbon 
equivalency associated with it, 

743
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:08,300
that's good. 
But, you know, it's not 

744
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:11,800
necessarily applicable in most 
jurisdictions around the world 

745
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,300
currently. 
Now, over time, it was 

746
00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:16,300
interesting actually at the 
Bloomberg conference in New 

747
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,400
York. 
April last year, I got to talk 

748
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,100
to Amory Lovins about this 
one-on-one. 

749
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:23,500
And I've been kind of having a 
fanboy thing for him for like 

750
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:26,300
years, and that's my him last 
week and I wasn't going to say 

751
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:27,800
anything. 
But you've mentioned him like 

752
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,500
four times on this bad guys. 
I love the guys, he's a 

753
00:37:30,508 --> 00:37:33,900
character and he's been pitching
in the Aviation Space. 

754
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:37,400
This like new sustainable 
Aviation fuels like offset 

755
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,600
credit that he is saying is 
truly additional. 

756
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,200
So I don't know much about that.
Yeah, we're coming for you Amory

757
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,900
Lovins. 
That's such a cool first name. 

758
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:49,100
By the way, it is cause anyone. 
In a memory like but in any case

759
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:53,400
I think going back with a graph.
Yeah, but it's gonna say, is in 

760
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,000
the current environment there is
a possibility that, you know, if

761
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,100
they're trans keep growing and 
wind and solar and stuff gets 

762
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:03,400
adopted, there is gonna be a lot
of off peak power, so there's 

763
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,700
going to be a lot more capacity 
to produce at times that we're 

764
00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:08,900
not using it and we can use that
excess capacity towards 

765
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:13,200
technologies that really do need
a carbon-free electricity source

766
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,500
to make life cycle sense. 
So for example, if you reverse 

767
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:19,300
Thing combustion. 
So if you're making a fuel out 

768
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:23,200
of CO2, you essentially need to 
put in all the energy that you 

769
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,200
got by burning the fuel in the 
first place, plus some more 

770
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,300
because you're not going to be 
100% efficient, right? 

771
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,000
So the only way to close that 
Loop is by using wind or solar 

772
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,600
or some kind of maybe even 
nuclear, but you have to use an 

773
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,200
energy source that has no carbon
emissions associated with it and

774
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,400
then reverse combustion, like, 
whatever it is, whether it's at 

775
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,900
a car scale or an industrial 
20000 ton. 

776
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:47,500
Coal Power Plant scale, right? 
And So, just to put that in 

777
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:50,900
layman's terms a little bit 
more, what that means is, it's 

778
00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,100
not sunny all the time. 
It's not windy all the time in 

779
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:55,800
the times where it is and 
there's all this Excess power on

780
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,000
the grid. 
You can zap CO2 with electricity

781
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:04,200
which splits it into Co and zap 
water, and that gets uh has and 

782
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,900
then you have the cso's and H's 
which are the building blocks to

783
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:10,400
make liquid hydrocarbons, and 
you should activate those 

784
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,400
reactions. 
When you have that Excess power 

785
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,900
to create this carbon neutral 
Fuel. 

786
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,800
And if you don't then Actually, 
you're pulling a whole bunch of 

787
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,100
extra energy onto the grid to 
make a carbon neutral Fuel. 

788
00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:24,400
And you may have been better 
off, not making that carbon 

789
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,800
neutral fuel in the first place.
That's probably the best way 

790
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,900
I've ever heard that said, 
that's really well done. 

791
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,700
But and and yeah I think the 
point is you can't burn the fuel

792
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:37,700
in an internal combustion engine
or coal or gas power plant, and 

793
00:39:37,707 --> 00:39:41,000
then somehow expect a reverse 
that using that same energy 

794
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,100
source that you just got that 
CO2 from You Catches reverse 

795
00:39:44,100 --> 00:39:46,900
that and expect to be whole. 
There's always lost Is like 

796
00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:49,200
efficiency isn't perfect 
beautiful laws of 

797
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,500
thermodynamics. 
Exactly. 

798
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:52,500
And and you know, it's 
interesting because a lot of 

799
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:55,600
people talk about catalytic 
activity and catalysts one of 

800
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,200
the analogies we've used in the 
past is a catalyst is like an 

801
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,100
elevator replacing a stairwell. 
You're still doing all the work 

802
00:40:02,100 --> 00:40:04,900
to get up to that level, you're 
just doing it faster, but it 

803
00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:07,900
doesn't make that, you know, 
second floor any closer to the 

804
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:09,600
first. 
So you're still spending the 

805
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,500
same amount of energy. 
You're just being with faster. 

806
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:14,700
I getting their rights when 
accelerators like putting your 

807
00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:17,900
pedal on the gas. 
It's Necessarily making your, 

808
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,900
you know, the conference center,
any closer to the Airbnb? 

809
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,800
That, I don't love that analogy 
because there's like losses and 

810
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,900
efficiencies and like how fast 
you speed. 

811
00:40:25,900 --> 00:40:27,700
But yeah, I get you, I kept 
yeah. 

812
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:31,400
Mentor, I'll have to defer to 
Kristoff for some better 

813
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,600
examples here, but the point 
that I'm making I think just 

814
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,300
going back to the life cycle 
piece, is that I think Gary is a

815
00:40:38,300 --> 00:40:41,900
need, especially given that 
carbon removal is only kind of a

816
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:45,100
new term that's beginning to be 
thrown around a bit more. 

817
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:46,400
Like there's more awareness 
about it. 

818
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,200
Now than there was even 12 
months ago. 

819
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:53,800
And so there is a very, very 
urgent need in my opinion to 

820
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,300
create a bunch of 
standardization. 

821
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,100
I mean, we talked about 
terminology earlier and even 

822
00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:00,500
more importantly, I would say 
around. 

823
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:02,400
How do you draw those control 
volumes? 

824
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:03,800
Like how do you draw a box 
around? 

825
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,500
What this process does you know 
if you're using a feedstock that

826
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:10,800
needs supercritical CO2 like 
liquid CO2 that needs to be 

827
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,600
cooled and compressed and all 
this energy needs to be spent to

828
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,100
get it to that level versus a 
technology that doesn't need 

829
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:17,900
that. 
There were distinctions there 

830
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,100
and they need to be clearly laid
out and there has to be almost a

831
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:26,800
governing body or some kind of a
resource that can look at these 

832
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,000
and compare them on an 
apples-to-apples basis. 

833
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:32,900
And if we do that as a system or
an ecosystem, right? 

834
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:37,100
Large, I think that will put us 
in a much better position both 

835
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:40,500
in terms of making meaningful, 
change and doing things which 

836
00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:43,600
are not like seemingly good, but
actually not doing that well and

837
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,600
then also getting us credibility
with You know, especially in the

838
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,500
era of fake news and all that. 
Like the last thing you want to 

839
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,100
do is go out there saying we're 
going to solve climate change 

840
00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:54,600
and two years later. 
It's like man, like if someone 

841
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,500
had just done the LCA on that 
that way of never flown, right? 

842
00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:00,900
Yeah, I think this, this whole 
end of the conversation for me 

843
00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:04,700
is resonating a lot. 
Because last week when I was in 

844
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:07,900
Montreal and did a quick video, 
French accent. 

845
00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:09,200
Well, thank you. 
Yeah. 

846
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,100
I studied when I was in college,
anyways, I did a quick little 

847
00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:15,200
video for LinkedIn. 
I try to do these great way to 

848
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,800
engage with people. 
And one of the speaker's was 

849
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,600
talking on, circularity Philippe
Fanta and we did a quick video 

850
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,000
and he talked about what carbon 
engineering students, 

851
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,700
essentially capturing carbon and
creating jet fuels. 

852
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:30,100
And if I understand correctly, 
that would be a carbon - 

853
00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:31,800
technology. 
No no, no. 

854
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,900
Because you're taking carbon out
of the atmosphere. 

855
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,000
You are taking hopefully 
hydropower, which it seems like 

856
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,800
they're using. 
But yeah, they just actually on 

857
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:41,900
this will be old news by the 
time. 

858
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:44,500
This podcast goes live but they 
have a plant that's going up in 

859
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:47,900
Texas but that fuel When they 
burn, it goes back into the 

860
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:49,700
atmosphere. 
So that's just carbon neutral 

861
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:51,800
carbon cycling. 
It's stifling, they call it 

862
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,900
ultra low carbon fuels because 
they also are using a natural 

863
00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:59,200
gas-fired power plant. 
So I think they do a full honest

864
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,900
life cycle. 
Anyway, I'm distracting that'll 

865
00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:06,000
back so so I but I got comments.
The first coming I got was from 

866
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,100
Nikki from origin power and 
she's like, you know, be careful

867
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:12,000
because you could disparage the 
industry by saying that this is 

868
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,800
gonna like actually impact. 
And at first, like I'm Saying, 

869
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,900
and I'm rereading this. 
I reached out to Nikki. 

870
00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:22,000
Thanks Nikki for listening. 
And we chatted privately for a 

871
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,500
bit and she's like, yeah, it 
depends on the energy source. 

872
00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:28,800
So so just exactly what you're 
saying and I taken that lesson 

873
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,500
lesson learned and I probably 
should have asked it's hard when

874
00:43:31,508 --> 00:43:33,000
you're doing a quick one-minute 
video. 

875
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,500
Maybe I'll do it two or three 
minutes instead and say okay but

876
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:39,800
you know given certain context 
because, you know, we talked 

877
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,100
about this, all the time. 
We talk about vegetarian versus 

878
00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:44,200
meeting, and it's not all the 
same, it's not bad, it's all 

879
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,800
good. 
It's really depends. 

880
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,000
And so, So depends on the energy
source that you are using to 

881
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,400
supply that conversion of 
gaseous, CO2 into this new fuel 

882
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,400
or new product. 
And so if it's coming from a 

883
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,100
little carbon Source, then, yes,
you might be getting the 

884
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:02,000
outcomes that you want, which is
decreasing. 

885
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,300
The total amount of CO2 that 
you're admitting to create this 

886
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:10,700
product or or what have you but 
everything needs context and 

887
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,100
apart from that piece that you 
just alluded on. 

888
00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:16,000
I think the other thing that 
we're talking about on the lift 

889
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,900
right here, Was the importance 
of using those assumptions at 

890
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:21,500
one state? 
So when you're at the lab scale,

891
00:44:21,500 --> 00:44:24,100
the bench scale, right? 
And then as you scale those 

892
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:26,200
assumptions need to reflect that
scale as well. 

893
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,800
So you can't just keep using the
same assumptions that you used 

894
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,800
in a bench scale system in DC, 
where it is, all Hydro, right? 

895
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:38,100
And you can credibly say that's 
all clean when you're scaling. 

896
00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,500
And if that changes in context, 
as you said, the assumptions 

897
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:43,900
need to reflect that. 
And, you know, Carbon 

898
00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:46,300
engineering is actually an 
excellent example of people that

899
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:47,400
do that. 
Ooh, that well, and they've been

900
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,900
very transparent about it. 
And I think that's a great lead 

901
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:53,400
for the rest of us to follow, 
you know, I think that is a 

902
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,800
perfect. 
Like, we are closing the circle 

903
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,800
now and that's because we're 
talking. 

904
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,500
Now, on the meta level when it 
comes to constraints and lab 

905
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:03,600
scale, and, and these systems 
and outcomes. 

906
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:05,500
But it goes back to what you 
were saying in the beginning. 

907
00:45:05,500 --> 00:45:08,000
Like okay, well, now you've got 
these nanomaterials, and these 

908
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,800
nanomaterials, because they're 
so small, you can treat them 

909
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,500
differently, you can use them in
different ways. 

910
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:15,700
So really just like in physics 
and politics, you have to look 

911
00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:18,500
at the scale and Have to 
reassess after certain kind of 

912
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,100
micro and macro boundaries are 
crossed and realize, okay? 

913
00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:24,200
Now it's a whole, another level 
quantum. 

914
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:27,400
Physics is a whole new realm 
like things. 

915
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,700
The laws of Newtonian physics 
don't apply? 

916
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:35,500
Yeah, we can't solve a problem. 
That's been growing over 200 

917
00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:39,000
years in the next 30 by thinking
about them the same way that we 

918
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,000
created those problems in the 
first place like we have to 

919
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,900
think about them differently. 
And that means, I mean, you 

920
00:45:43,900 --> 00:45:46,700
know, I used to game either 
Bucky Fuller, quote there, Is 

921
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:48,300
it? 
Yeah, well, I'm glad you 

922
00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,200
credited because I didn't want 
to place your eyes but but yeah.

923
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,500
Like, I think, you know, any of 
us that were like real time 

924
00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:57,600
strategy players like Age of 
Empires and stuff like that kind

925
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,800
of love that game. 
I used to want a good throwback.

926
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,700
Yeah. 
And World of Warcraft and stuff 

927
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:04,500
too. 
But the thing is one of the 

928
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:06,400
things you love and games like 
that is when you have a cheat 

929
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,000
code to pull on and and 
unfortunately, the place we're 

930
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,700
at today and, you know, you 
talked a little bit about kind 

931
00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:13,400
of setting expectations earlier,
right? 

932
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,400
Like about how do you get policy
makers and entrepreneurs and 

933
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:18,100
Nationals on the all on the same
page. 

934
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:21,400
I think similar to the question 
that you asked about like, what 

935
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,100
kind of stuff should we do and 
what are our options. 

936
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,300
You know, there are people out 
there that are still not 

937
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,500
convinced that climate change is
real or that it's man-made. 

938
00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:32,500
I think ultimately we just have 
to say, look change is good. 

939
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,400
As long as it's happening at a 
rate that we can keep up with. 

940
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,500
And so, regardless of whether 
it's man-made or not, regardless

941
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:44,300
of whether, you know, some of 
these erratic weather activities

942
00:46:44,300 --> 00:46:48,500
and climate activities are If 
creatable to like human 

943
00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:51,400
behavior, I think we have to 
reach a consensus and say things

944
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,900
are changing way faster than 
we're used to. 

945
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,600
So let's become more resilient, 
let's become smarter and what we

946
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,800
do and find consensus like 
instead of picking fights. 

947
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,000
I mean, you know, one of the 
things that came to mind earlier

948
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,200
when you talked about kind of 
that difference between carbon 

949
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,400
negative. 
And carbon efficient is I was 

950
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,600
thinking earlier, like, we had a
chance. 

951
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:12,700
This was about 12 or 16 months 
ago, and Scott Pruitt was still 

952
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:17,100
heading up the EPA and he came 
up to Canada and he wanted A few

953
00:47:17,100 --> 00:47:19,300
Canadian companies to pitch and 
he said, nah. 

954
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:22,600
Nah, don't talk about carbon 
like that will never make it 

955
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,900
through the shortlist and and 
one of the things we told to 

956
00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:29,300
Meredith who run student energy,
Meredith Adler, she was speaking

957
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:31,800
a few youth entrepreneurs like 
under the age of 35 to go out 

958
00:47:31,808 --> 00:47:35,800
and pitch and and I said you 
know I'd be I would challenge 

959
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,600
myself to be as convincing to 
Scott Pruett as I would beat a 

960
00:47:38,607 --> 00:47:41,000
minister meccano. 
And and I'm not saying that we 

961
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,300
would have but I think in a 
sense we need some of that 

962
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:47,100
bridging right now like we need 
people to say These are 

963
00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:50,900
practically good things to do 
and you know it's not enough but

964
00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:52,700
there has to be some consensus 
on it. 

965
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:55,800
On a fundamental kind of lowest 
common denominator basis and 

966
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,600
then hopefully the progressive 
people can do more than that but

967
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,800
you know we can't just do it 
with a minority like we need to 

968
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,400
get kind of a swelling like 
almost to a Tipping Point as 

969
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,200
Malcolm Gladwell would put it 
before. 

970
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,000
You accuse me of plagiarizing or
anything like that, I would 

971
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,700
never. 
I totally agree and I think 

972
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:16,400
we're getting there. 
I think it will take a bit more 

973
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,000
time. 
I'm but I do believe that all 

974
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,900
the disparate efforts are coming
together and if I were to have 

975
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:27,300
my druthers, I would say, just 
focus on getting carbon out of 

976
00:48:27,300 --> 00:48:30,000
the supply chain. 
Don't let phony emission 

977
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,400
reduction certificates that have
no, underlying value trade, 

978
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:37,000
destroy those things, the Kyoto 
Protocol didn't really work. 

979
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,800
Nearly did the clean development
mechanism. 

980
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,400
Zai mean. 
Good on you for like figuring 

981
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,100
out what didn't work United 
Nations, but like it's time to 

982
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:46,300
remove the excess CO2 from the 
atmosphere and stop the CO2 from

983
00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:48,700
Getting into the atmosphere in 
the first place and just focus 

984
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:51,300
on the climate math. 
So, before I keep ranting on 

985
00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:53,400
this subject, I'm going to pass 
it back to you, approve. 

986
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,100
We're getting to the end of the 
hour. 

987
00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:57,700
If people are interested in 
carbon upcycling Technologies, 

988
00:48:57,700 --> 00:48:58,900
they want to follow your 
progress. 

989
00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:00,400
What can they do? 
What's next? 

990
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:03,600
Yeah, we just got a new website 
going. 

991
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,300
So we actually have something 
relatively presentable now so 

992
00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:09,700
you can check us out at 
www.minettis.com. 

993
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:12,900
All one word, it's kind of like 
We Cycling but with up' instead 

994
00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:17,000
of the Ari should be easy to 
spell and we've got a Page as 

995
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,700
well. 
So you can follow us at Carbon 

996
00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:20,900
up cycling. 
But overall, I think one of the 

997
00:49:20,900 --> 00:49:23,700
big things is happening for us. 
Right now is that ramp up for 

998
00:49:23,700 --> 00:49:26,300
the carbon X prize competition. 
So this is the X prize 

999
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:28,800
Foundation out of l.a. is 
running something similar to the

1000
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,500
SpaceX challenge. 
That a lot more people know 

1001
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:33,100
about. 
And they've already selected the

1002
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:36,200
top 10 companies within the the 
competition from all around the 

1003
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,500
world, and they will be 
announcing the winners of that, 

1004
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:41,300
in June next year. 
So we're quite busy right now. 

1005
00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:45,600
Working in the relative cold of 
Calgary to scale up and build a 

1006
00:49:45,607 --> 00:49:48,400
unit that Enshou carbon going 
right? 

1007
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,700
From a flu stack all the way out
to an end product. 

1008
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,700
And yeah, if you guys are ever 
out near Calgary to visit Bound 

1009
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:57,900
for anything like that, come 
check us out or hit us up. 

1010
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:01,100
We'd be happy to host. 
You thanks again for coming on 

1011
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:03,300
and see you next time. 
Thank you. 

1012
00:49:46,500 --> 00:49:49,800
Enshou carbon going right? 
From a flu stack all the way out

1013
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,700
to an end product. 
And yeah, if you guys are ever 

1014
00:49:52,700 --> 00:49:56,200
out near Calgary to visit Bound 
for anything like that, come 

1015
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,200
check us out or hit us up. 
We'd be happy to host. 

1016
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,300
You thanks again for coming on 
and see you next time. 

1017
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:03,300
Thank you.