1 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:06,000 You're listening to the reversing climate change, 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,100 podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,700 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:13,700 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,100 Now, I keep forgetting to start these things. 6 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:21,400 Introducing ourselves Siobhan so I'm going to cool it on the warm 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,400 intro again, warm open and just say hi. 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,100 I'm Ross, Kenny and I'm the creative editor of nori. 9 00:00:27,100 --> 00:00:29,500 I can't even see my own title one of the co-founders that 10 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:31,600 Nori. Where carbon removal marketplace 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,400 with me is shabaan, Montoya lavender, who is a co-founder 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,000 of, thanks a ton and also works on memes podcasting and other 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,500 things with Nori. I should. 14 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:46,900 Hey hello, hey, and Jeremy, Epstein had a growth open forced 15 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:51,100 protocol coming to you live from Portugal and Jeremy. 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,700 Hey guys, thanks for having me great to be here. 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,300 Thank you for making it work, even with the jet lag and 18 00:00:57,300 --> 00:01:01,500 everything. Saying earlier, this will be my 19 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:04,300 last Act of the day and that I'm turning in. 20 00:01:05,099 --> 00:01:07,700 I was saying we get him, we get a nice and groggy so it is like 21 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:10,100 a happy hour podcast. Yeah. 22 00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:13,300 Are you got some like meat on Verde and buckle over there? 23 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:16,500 What have you got handy? All that pistache, whatever they 24 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,100 are. I'm going to eat it all for 25 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:20,800 dinner. That's cool. 26 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,500 Yeah, we haven't done too many blockchain shows recently and or 27 00:01:25,500 --> 00:01:29,300 just refine General regenerative Finance if you're not hip to 28 00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:32,300 that term. ERM and why not feel like we 29 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:36,900 should and good before even introducing blockchain stuff. 30 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,100 Even coming covering carbon removal itself is quite 31 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:42,200 difficult. So introducing something 32 00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:46,300 traditional like this is maybe, maybe tough for us or tougher 33 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:49,700 others to cover in depth or maybe that shave your head says, 34 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:51,500 can you really cover one without the other? 35 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,800 I don't know. Why, don't you tell us what 36 00:01:53,808 --> 00:01:55,700 you're working on though? Sure. 37 00:01:55,700 --> 00:02:02,100 So, open Forest protocol is using a Tech stack to solve what 38 00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:08,800 we see to be the key bottleneck in delivering enough 39 00:02:08,900 --> 00:02:11,800 high-quality nature based solutions to the voluntary 40 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,600 market. And that bottleneck is mrv the 41 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,300 current process to measure report and verify claims of 42 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,200 what's happening on the ground. Of course, with with CDR, right? 43 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:28,000 You're trying to create a commodity and that commodity is 44 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,800 not like something that you actually deliver. 45 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:32,300 Over to the End customer. You're not making, you're not 46 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:34,800 growing corn to bring corn to the End, customer to make corn 47 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,000 flakes, you're actually trying to deliver proof that that 48 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,200 commodity has been stored somewhere, right? 49 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,200 And to do that. You need this, this mrv piece 50 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,800 measurement, reporting and verification. 51 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,500 It's different for whatever methodology of recover removal. 52 00:02:49,500 --> 00:02:52,500 Your undertaking in nature based Solutions. 53 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:55,700 There's number of bottlenecks and just a number of 54 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:02,200 difficulties and sort of scaling and creating A trusted proof of 55 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:08,300 impact that this ton of carbon or ultimately this unit of 56 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:11,000 biodiversity. If we're going to go there these 57 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,800 things have actually happened and we are creating the digital 58 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,600 asset record to represent that thing so that people can then 59 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,100 transact with that record and trusted. 60 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:25,700 So you need that connection between the the credit which is 61 00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:29,300 the asset record which I am referring to and the actual 62 00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:32,200 thing. In, in the real, the real world 63 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:34,600 and to deliver between those two things. 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,500 That's, that's the mrv, that's the piece where we are. 65 00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:44,100 Bringing a web three Tech stack to make it decentralised 66 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,600 accessible to all and very, very data back to create that trust 67 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,300 or to go one step further that trust listen assess. 68 00:03:52,300 --> 00:03:55,800 As we say, in the web, three world how to make one small 69 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,500 observation, which is the idea of a unit of biodiversity is 70 00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:04,300 very Honey, and I imagine would make some people just howl but 71 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,500 okay, I will see the floor. There, I'll go ahead and I don't 72 00:04:08,500 --> 00:04:11,800 know what that unit is. It's a lizard or several monkeys 73 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,900 or something. But we're aware that 74 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:19,800 biodiversity is like that's the Hot Topic at the coming, cop. 75 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,700 I mean that everyone sort of talking about it. 76 00:04:21,700 --> 00:04:23,000 I have yet to wrap my arms around. 77 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,700 Exactly. How do you measure a how do you 78 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:29,400 measure on biodiversity right? Like what is that thing? 79 00:04:30,100 --> 00:04:32,000 Let's break it down a little bit because I feel like when you 80 00:04:32,008 --> 00:04:35,700 say, like the web, three Tech component, I feel like, there's 81 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:38,900 so much, talk about web three going on, and what's really, as 82 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:41,400 pertains to the climate and specifically. 83 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:46,400 And even though I've delved into a lot of this, I don't know that 84 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:49,300 we're doing a good job as a community communicating, this 85 00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:51,800 accurately to like the average person likes like that which 86 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,000 person is like okay I've heard of like Bitcoin. 87 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,200 It's like what do you what do you tell them? 88 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,700 Like how do you pitch this? Like what is the virtue? 89 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:04,800 What is the value add of putting carbon into this like web three 90 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,900 platform? Yeah, that is often times the 91 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:11,300 jumping off point is well, is this Bitcoin? 92 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,900 Okay, I think we're both so traumatized shiv like I never 93 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:17,700 hesitate to come. I didn't you should have. 94 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:19,400 You should give me a trigger warning for this one. 95 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:22,500 Okay, good luck. Jeremy, good luck. 96 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,700 All right. Bitcoin is a digital currency 97 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,400 and One of the things that makes it super cool and has all this 98 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,600 uptake and people love it is the fact that it is based on the 99 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,300 blockchain which essentially is a is a digital Ledger. 100 00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:44,000 It's just a more perfect system of accounting. 101 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,800 If you will if you really want to break it down that's how I 102 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,800 think about it is like okay this is a way to do accounting on a 103 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:52,900 global distributed level. So that we don't lose records, 104 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,200 we don't have questions about what is where, which acid is 105 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,500 wearing, particularly when you're trying to Transfer 106 00:06:00,500 --> 00:06:04,700 digital value multiple times through multiple jurisdictions 107 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:08,900 all over the place. It is nice to have a system that 108 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:12,000 that you feel like you can trust because the data can't be 109 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,400 destroyed. It can't go anywhere and it 110 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,000 always gets added to this block J. 111 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,500 Now, that's like probably a terrible over simplification of 112 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:23,700 what that is and how do you we want, oversimplifications? 113 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:26,200 We want to make this is blockchain for dummies people. 114 00:06:26,500 --> 00:06:29,400 Okay, so there's that, you have a great system of accounting 115 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,600 now, Now let's like Turn the Page and we're going to go look 116 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,300 at, look at the voluntary carbon market and look at some of the 117 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:38,000 headlines that have. All right? 118 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,500 Let's let's talk about the John Oliver piece, right? 119 00:06:40,500 --> 00:06:45,400 There's there's a timely and I think pretty, pretty on topic 120 00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:49,400 critique of some of the issues going on in the system. 121 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:52,100 Now, he has a few different critiques, I believe, but one of 122 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:55,800 them being there's double counting, there are companies 123 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,600 that buy these credits claim them as an offset. 124 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,400 Then go ahead and resell them and we know that companies do 125 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,500 this. We've had CEOs or former CEOs 126 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:08,600 come forward and say this kind of monkey business has happened 127 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:11,300 and likely it is still happening, right? 128 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:16,500 Anytime you have an opaque system or process with sort of 129 00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:19,800 self-interest with the ability for people to self enriched to 130 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,900 some extent. This is Mike my cynical world 131 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:24,400 view on Humanity but I think it's holds up there will be 132 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,100 monkey business. If given the opportunity people 133 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:29,500 will act in a self-interested way, I'm sure there's some 134 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:31,800 Famous economist, who agrees with me. 135 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:36,200 And so that has happened in the voluntary carbon Market because 136 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,700 it's fragmented, you can buy a credit from here from there. 137 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,600 Hold it, sell it claim that you've offset with it, sort of 138 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,200 whatever you want to do. I speak with investors regularly 139 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,200 and the one. I last one, I spoke to, at the 140 00:07:50,207 --> 00:07:53,200 end of our colleagues said, well, now, all this has to go 141 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,500 through some sort of regulatory body or a government, right? 142 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,600 No, no, really. Anybody can? 143 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:04,000 Create these things and it is voluntary and I will not say 144 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:09,100 Wild West that's been stricken from my vocabulary but during 145 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:12,700 that been applied here, also help you to find defecting from 146 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:15,200 the prisoner's dilemma is now known as Monkey Business. 147 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:20,700 Just a heads up. Yeah, so yeah, so you take this 148 00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:23,000 sort of perfect system of accounting and you apply it to 149 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,900 the voluntary carbon market and I think that's a lot of what has 150 00:08:25,900 --> 00:08:29,600 been done in re5 with projects that have been able to spin up. 151 00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:34,200 Up get off the ground and do things around credits on a 152 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,200 blockchain so far and many of those. 153 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,900 But most of those projects pretty much all of them to date. 154 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,799 Perhaps Nori being one exception have been bridging tokens. 155 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,300 Have been taking tokens that were created through the 156 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:50,500 Machinery of a legacy system through sort of Legacy. 157 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:54,100 Actors, such as Farrah, such as gold standard, putting them on a 158 00:08:54,108 --> 00:08:58,000 blockchain and accounting for them in that way with that block 159 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,700 chain, based accounting system. So that There isn't a question 160 00:09:00,700 --> 00:09:04,400 of who owns the credit who bought it who sold it at what 161 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,100 price was? It retired? 162 00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:10,900 Was it not retired? Those questions do get solved 163 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,100 when you bridge carbon onto a block chain and I think that 164 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:18,600 that's fantastic and to me that is solving sort of the second 165 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,900 half of the problem. It doesn't fix the supply 166 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:25,000 problem but it fixes. What do you do when the supply 167 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,500 exists and we no one has a clue where it's going or who owns it? 168 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:33,300 And you know, if we miss a count carbon the result is terrible. 169 00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:35,700 The result is we end up essentially with more emissions 170 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:38,400 in the air rather than less. So you got to fix the accounting 171 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,000 thing first. I think the blockchain is a 172 00:09:40,008 --> 00:09:44,000 great place to do that. That's kind of how a lot of refi 173 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,800 projects to date, have tackled, the game, we're doing something 174 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:50,900 different. So I like to sort of create that 175 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:52,800 separation. And I can tell you more about 176 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,800 sort of how we solve a problem that starts earlier that 177 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,600 process. But I'll stop there for a 178 00:09:58,608 --> 00:10:00,800 moment. I Ways to spot that out. 179 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,000 Especially with regard to supply me at my least. 180 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,800 Charitable at Nori will see projects within the refi space, 181 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,500 and all things like cool. You have found a new demand 182 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:16,600 Pipeline, and that's great. But also supplies the bottleneck 183 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,400 and carbon removal and much of the supply, not in carbon 184 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,700 removal. Is not that good. 185 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:23,900 And if your funding, it aren't you? 186 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:25,700 Just going to get more low quality projects. 187 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:27,900 If you're willing to buy anything without regard to the 188 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:29,600 quality? Yes. 189 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:32,900 I'm not sure we actually I just passed my five year anniversary. 190 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:35,500 Since Nori was founded that was exciting for the founders of 191 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:37,800 nori. I was fun all that time. 192 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,300 Has been on mrv methodology. Just getting soil right? 193 00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:44,500 It's still very difficult. We're so it like this lots of 194 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:48,400 conceptual challenges and trade-offs watching applications 195 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,500 and token. Economics, almost feels 196 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:54,000 relatively trivial in comparison to just dealing with the carbon. 197 00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:56,900 And I'm not sure that that has fully sunk into a lot of the 198 00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:59,500 refi movement just yet, but you're much closer to it than I 199 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:01,800 am. So I very well could be mistaken 200 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,200 on that, but that's my superficial take on it. 201 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,000 That's just how men before we even talk about that. 202 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,000 Let's define refi for our audience for our listeners. 203 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,100 Again, this is this is for the refined blockchain for dummies. 204 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:15,500 So, either one of you jump out with this one, if I was just 205 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:18,600 like, hey, Define refine a sentence, what would you say? 206 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,300 Hey, the start with defy, to even get to refi, right? 207 00:11:23,300 --> 00:11:26,700 Sure. It stands for regenerative. 208 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:28,900 Finances has nothing to do with your mortgage. 209 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:36,400 So So we'll get that out of the way to me, refi is a system that 210 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,100 creates value with positive externalities. 211 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:44,500 In other words, something good happens with the climate with 212 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:49,500 the biosphere and value is created and so you were sort of 213 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,200 aligning incentives. You're aligning value and 214 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,900 positive outcomes. Okay, I like that. 215 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,300 Ross went to go stab. So make that defy connection, 216 00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:01,400 which came together a couple Years ago, decentralized 217 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,900 Finance. But basically a way of one 218 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:10,000 application of it, one might say is loaning ones crypto without 219 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,600 some Central intermediary. Like you're loaning it to an 220 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,400 algorithm and people are borrowing it and using it and 221 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,200 you're being paid interest and there are many other 222 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,700 applications of staking tokens or other things that don't 223 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:23,200 require a bank that you're putting leaving money in a bank 224 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,800 in the same kind of way. So I feel like rebuy is kind of 225 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,400 a little bit of like a using the conventional. 226 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,300 Of the naming convention and kind of being like, Hey, we're 227 00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:34,500 even cooler. This is this other thing, 228 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:37,600 they're all so deep, I applications within refund. 229 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,700 So that's like a heard you like, we apply onion here. 230 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,900 Yeah, there's definitely that component of access. 231 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,300 I think Russ that you're getting at that's important that, that, 232 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:53,100 that people can participate in things that perhaps they 233 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,200 couldn't. Otherwise because there is an, a 234 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,500 central regulatory Authority standing between them and 235 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,200 creating a And getting that accredited putting it on 236 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,300 blockchain, or of, or many other things that they could be doing. 237 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,100 There are a lot of hurdles right now, as we know, we've talked 238 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:11,000 about this before, I think, to getting credits verified on 239 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,600 various platforms on the one hand, it's like, yes, we want to 240 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,400 really lean into verification and robust measurements and 241 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,500 authenticity, you know, I talked to project developers are like 242 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:24,600 why can't afford to get my project on gold standard? 243 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,100 Like that's, you know, thousands of dollars that I don't have 244 00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:28,400 right now. You know, these are these are 245 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,300 small projects, they're trying. Get off the ground. 246 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:33,100 So I think there needs to be a space somewhere in the ecosystem 247 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:37,500 for small projects to have some sort of verification that maybe 248 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:42,700 isn't yet at the super expensive industry standard level sort of 249 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,400 the the Legacy system has been very much one per like the one 250 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:50,100 percenters of carbon projects. Like those that are big enough 251 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:54,000 connected enough, and well-heeled enough to afford to 252 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,200 get through that system leaving the rest of the projects, kind 253 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,900 of out in the cold with Access to mrv which leads to 254 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:05,500 accreditation which ultimately is how you get a results-based 255 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:09,600 credit based financing to scale and rinse lather, repeat the 256 00:14:09,608 --> 00:14:12,200 process. So there's an internal debate 257 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,600 that's been going on at Nori for a super long time about Dows and 258 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,900 to what degree things can be can and should be decentralized 259 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,500 because on the one hand you think I've seen Community like 260 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:23,800 like opener, click is a great example. 261 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,200 I think that Community is so strong that I think they could 262 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,800 probably write some methodologies that can and 263 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,900 should be. Incorporated into some carbon 264 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:34,400 removal marketplaces but and they're also communities that 265 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,000 work despite the fact that you don't, it's like hard to imagine 266 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,800 that they even would like Linux. The fact that Linux Works in 267 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,900 much of the world runs on Linux based operating systems is 268 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:46,800 magical and hurts my brain to even think about. 269 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:50,500 And I wonder like we have full-timers devoted to thinking 270 00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:54,100 about the difficulties of mrb and soil, and carbon markets. 271 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:57,000 And the Dynamics that all have to play out to actually work. 272 00:14:57,300 --> 00:15:00,600 I have a hard time thinking someone with Stake in it, who 273 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,400 sort of a part-time hobbyist could solve it in a way that I 274 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,500 could not even if there were hundreds or thousands of people 275 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,300 all decentralized, and collaborating, and I sort of 276 00:15:10,308 --> 00:15:13,700 like GitHub repository for it. Am I mistaken? 277 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:15,900 Should I trust that decentralized process more? 278 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:18,700 And trust myself less, or is there a part of me that is 279 00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:22,400 correct? I wish I had the answers for you 280 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,400 deserted. Those are tough questions? 281 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:26,600 Yeah, I don't know that. I don't know that. 282 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,700 I would know the answer to that either when I think of And 283 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:34,000 realized I certainly think of, you know, peer to peer 284 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,400 accountability which I think of in a positive way. 285 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,800 But then I also think race to the bottom sometimes you know 286 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,600 like as you were talking about, let's bring back the Monkey 287 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,100 Business, you know, the Monkey Business race to the bottom. 288 00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:49,100 So it's like, where is that sweet spot between like having 289 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,800 the authenticity? And you know, the backing of 290 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,800 some of these major verifiers and then having it on this 291 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,600 peer-to-peer decentralization that Is more accessible is easy. 292 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,200 To validate, is easy to corroborate and check. 293 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,000 But where is the, where is The Sweet Spot? 294 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,200 And are you trying to find that open Forest protocol? 295 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,400 Are you trying to find that Inori? 296 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,200 Like, how do how do we get there? 297 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,700 Yeah, I think on the decentralization and I mean, you 298 00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:22,600 can't make the rapid-fire decisions and build quickly and 299 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,700 all the things you need to do in a start-up environment with a 300 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:29,500 decentralized dow based governance process. 301 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,300 Right. So, that's where sort of this 302 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:36,900 idea of progressive decentralization comes in where 303 00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:40,700 you do start off centralized and we you know if p is definitely 304 00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:44,200 on this trajectory right? And the goal being ultimately 305 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:49,300 that myself, the co-founders, all of us could go away and the 306 00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:53,900 system lives on because it has sort of it's grown, its wings in 307 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:57,400 its flown out, it's fully decentralized but it takes a 308 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,100 long time to get there and I think maybe What you're getting 309 00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:03,700 at is is a little bit of like that in that interim period. 310 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,200 You do, have you still have those same problems of 311 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:12,900 centralization which is, I think somewhat counteracted by just 312 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,400 transparency. I think that's probably the best 313 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,500 thing that we can do is just try to be as transparent as possible 314 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,599 at these early stages until the point, where sort of 315 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,300 decentralized and transparent mechanisms, take over, because 316 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:28,700 you can't start from there. You have to that has to be more 317 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:29,700 of an endpoint. Aunt. 318 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:32,400 I'd love to read, I've been reading them. 319 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,900 Balaji sreenivasan has Network State recently and I'm sure 320 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,900 we'll get deeper into this and I bet there's I look at the 321 00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:40,500 bibliography. I could probably find a good 322 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:42,900 thing to read about this, but which kinds of problems are best 323 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,200 suited to a sort of decentralized Open Source, ethos 324 00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:48,300 and which ones do not are not well. 325 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:52,000 Served by that model, looked like sometimes in the crypto 326 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,000 space and interact. There's an ideological 327 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,700 pre-commitment to Dowing things or making this a community-based 328 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:03,000 kind of Tori model and I mean like big white on the start, 329 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,500 right is sort of like anti centralization anti Federal 330 00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:09,000 Reserve anti-v at centralized money. 331 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,000 And so it's sort of Concordia, kryptos quarter cryptos culture, 332 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:14,800 but I don't want to do it just because that's the default 333 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,800 within the space. I want to make sure it's a wise 334 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,900 use of it. I've definitely been in groups 335 00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:21,600 of four like I was in an occupied group in college and 336 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,700 that was pretty decentralised and participatory and I think 337 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:29,400 the failure of my leadership and a failure of many people. 338 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,300 Participate didn't work, it didn't work, dang it. 339 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:34,800 So I don't know, I think I've been indefinitely doing groups 340 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,500 from like, okay, strong leader here, and less of a consensus 341 00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:40,900 model might be nice. Anyways, I'm just rambling. 342 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:45,800 Now, you were also in the middle of telling your Open Force 343 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,700 protocol story. Like we stopped and then 344 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:51,600 digressed and it was a fun digression but maybe want to 345 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,500 steer us back to what problems you're solving and what you're 346 00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:56,600 thinking about right now. Sure. 347 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,200 Yeah yeah. We got a fun tangent. 348 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,400 Like to make this, I don't know. I always feel like it's a crap 349 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,900 statement, but the ultimate goal for me with open Forest protocol 350 00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:11,500 is that anyone anywhere in the world has access to the 351 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,300 following value proposition. Here's here's where it gets 352 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,100 crafts and start Crossing all actually, it's just blunt it, 353 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:19,900 spin plant, trees, get paid, and that's like an oversized. 354 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:23,200 There's like major caveats behind because you have to do it 355 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,900 the right way, and it has to qualify, it has to be verified, 356 00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:29,200 but but I don't like a very simple statement it, it's like 357 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,000 that. That's what I always imagined 358 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,200 the utopian vision of like a functional voluntary Global 359 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,300 carbon Market to be like, like, oh yeah, I can just plant a 360 00:19:38,308 --> 00:19:43,300 beautiful forest and, you know, the market will provide, right? 361 00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:47,700 And it better so far from the way that things operate right 362 00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:51,300 now, there's a strong saying, you know, you've got to pay tens 363 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,700 to hundreds of thousands of dollars to accredit a forest 364 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,800 project. If your project is less than say 365 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,400 3,000 Acres or 1,200 hectares, forget about it. 366 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,000 It doesn't pencil because unique its high fixed transaction 367 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,800 costs. Require large transactions to be 368 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,400 profitable and it's the same thing with Forest projects. 369 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,400 There's so much expense involved that you just needed to develop 370 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,300 a very large project to make it profitable and there's not a lot 371 00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:20,700 of land that's owned and really large tracks, like that. 372 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:25,500 And if you require 3,000 acres and above you're leaving out, I 373 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:29,400 would say 99% of potential projects from accessing. 374 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:32,500 Value from the carbon Market which we know would value. 375 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:37,300 These potentially more more, bespoke, more homegrown Forest 376 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:42,300 practitioners that are looking to restore nature and simply 377 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,700 receive value for something that they're doing to provide, you 378 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,800 know, for common good and restore the Global Commons. 379 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:52,700 That's what I think we are trying to do. 380 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:56,300 I think it's the answer May slightly vary from one ofp 381 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,400 member to the next. But that's how I think about it. 382 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,600 And you know, if we get to where I hope to get to then then 383 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,300 suddenly it becomes the new the new oil and gas. 384 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:13,000 If if you will where right when suddenly the world realized that 385 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,000 that fossil fuels had tons of value and there they were always 386 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,400 going to be purchased if they could be extracted. 387 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,800 Then you have this global economy that sprung up and you 388 00:21:22,808 --> 00:21:25,600 know with go prospecting and knocking on your door and West 389 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,200 Texas. And say, you sir are sitting on 390 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,400 a gold mine. Let us help you. 391 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,100 Bring these assets to I get will get you paid for it, right? 392 00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:33,400 Like those are the types of entrepreneurs that I want to see 393 00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:36,500 building forests not pulling gas out of the ground, right? 394 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:40,100 And and putting their entrepreneurial Firepower to 395 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,700 finding all of the little pocket forests in and around the, the 396 00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:47,700 Atlantic coast of the Amazon or wherever you are on planet 397 00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,900 Earth. And using our platform to 398 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:54,400 essentially bring these assets to Market. 399 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:58,700 So that's maybe another take on what it is that we're building. 400 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:02,800 And analogy, which I like to kind of be analogy of the oil 401 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,500 and gas company going out and saying, hey, we're in extract 402 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:07,500 this and we're going to get profit on this morning to add 403 00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,200 value to life. How does that work? 404 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,000 The analogy of standing Forest? I think about this and CD are 405 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,100 all the time. I think about how do you 406 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:19,700 communicate to people. The monetary value of an act of 407 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,100 removing carbon from the atmosphere and storing it 408 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:23,800 lithosphere. They are a biosphere wherever 409 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,900 you're storing it. How do you communicate that 410 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,300 after value in the sense that if I'm burning? 411 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:35,300 Fossil fuels in my home I get an immediate value received right? 412 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:39,000 Like I'm turning on my stove or my electricity, whatever it is 413 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,400 that I'm immediately experiencing that value and with 414 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,900 CDR. The value is happening where I 415 00:22:45,908 --> 00:22:48,200 can't see it, right? Like an action that's being 416 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,300 taken. That I'm paying for that. 417 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:54,000 I don't see. And as you say, you know, 418 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,300 sometimes is poorly documented, so we're not even positive. 419 00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:58,200 It happened. But let's pretend we have the 420 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,300 perfect robust system. We've Commander, we know what 421 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:02,400 happened? Still, how do you communicate 422 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,600 that value like? Okay, this is going to help you 423 00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:08,800 because I mean, in my case, like well, we need to solve climate 424 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,200 change, right? Like that's the talking point is 425 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,400 like, well, it's too hot in California right now. 426 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,100 I don't know how you're doing Ross up North, but you know, all 427 00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,500 of my friends in l.a. heirs are just scalding, you know? 428 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,200 So there's that sense of immediacy as climate crisis he's 429 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,700 increase in extreme weather increases but still there's not 430 00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:31,500 the same relationship to saying I'm turning on my power now, as 431 00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:33,400 opposed to, like, I'm paying to remove carbons. 432 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,700 Like, Hey, where's the selling point? 433 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:38,300 Do you think for, for customers? And I want to hear Ron here 434 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:40,900 Ross's, take on this and then I'm happy to respond as well. 435 00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:49,100 What a, what a BS here's pun. I think that's a pretty huge 436 00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:51,800 problem. We got a piece of advice early 437 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,600 on in Nori that no one wants to buy barcode, which is a really 438 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,500 important day time for us to think about. 439 00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:02,800 Because so much of nori is To build a commodity Market that's 440 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,600 more like the Chicago Mercantile Exchange more than Indiegogo or 441 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,700 eBay or Airbnb where your individually choosing. 442 00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:13,000 We want people to care about years of carbon stored, not 443 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,100 choose what's the warmest philia? 444 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:18,300 Stew thing I can buy. That's gonna like it. 445 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:21,400 That's a nice to have but not the main thing that we're trying 446 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,200 to maximize for. So there's one of the reasons 447 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,900 why I think creative has long been such a big part of Nori's 448 00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:31,900 that given that this is an act. Barcode kind of thing that one 449 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:35,700 might be buying, how do you compensate with storytelling or 450 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:37,900 other means to substitute for that? 451 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:41,000 So people do the thing that we think matters most but also 452 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,000 don't deny them, the warm feel he's that they often are 453 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,400 motivated by I would say yeah and I think I'm trying to 454 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,700 probably walk the same Razors Edge. 455 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,200 I'm glad to hear you kind of talked about that, it sort of a 456 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,700 tension between an efficient commodity style market and 457 00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:59,300 something that tells a story at the same time, right? 458 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:02,700 How do you digitize that, how do you program that into a fungible 459 00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:07,800 or not fungible asset and have that data backing the credit, so 460 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,000 that you can mix this credit up with 10 million of its brothers 461 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,000 and sisters. And yet the purchaser who pulls 462 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,200 that credit out of the pile and goes home with it. 463 00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:19,600 Can look at it and say, oh this came from this project with 464 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,600 these lovely people who planted these trees. 465 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,300 And there's these wonderful sdg goals that were also met and 466 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,200 that is a challenge and that is how we're looking at things and 467 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,400 And want to sort of tread that fine line between a, I mean, I 468 00:25:33,408 --> 00:25:36,200 think probably gets a little technical like if it is fungible 469 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,000 or not fungible, essentially, if it is a completely unique 470 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,900 digital asset. That is unlike any others, or if 471 00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:46,100 it's a commodity, right? If it's just like all the other 472 00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:50,700 ones that we create, and I think that there's a technical Pathway 473 00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:54,600 to do both that does go back to, like, what, what are you trying 474 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,800 to deliver it? Kind of depends on who's buying 475 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,800 it. You know, I think corporates are 476 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:06,000 trying to I like PR some extent and maybe like more reacted more 477 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,100 and more reactive PR, which we're seeing now over 40% of the 478 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:11,600 S&P 500 has made a net zero goals. 479 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,400 I mean, goals are different than action, but it's a step in the 480 00:26:14,408 --> 00:26:16,600 right direction. And why are they doing that? 481 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:22,500 Part of it is probably to appease shareholders or appease 482 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:25,200 customers. So it's a bit of an talent to I 483 00:26:25,208 --> 00:26:26,800 think people. Yeah. 484 00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:30,800 So there's that. There's that reason why they buy 485 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,300 and then ultimately, I like to think of a carbon credit 486 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,900 essentially, is it it's a currency, right? 487 00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:42,400 It's just it's just a thing that has value and can be exchanged 488 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,900 and and because of that it's not always so much about the end 489 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:49,700 user like, oh okay, we're going to make this that someone can 490 00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:54,200 buy it and then retire it. I do think there is value kind 491 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,700 of going back to the beginning, the conversation with the 492 00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:02,100 marketplaces and Of these marketplaces that without naming 493 00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:06,000 names, I think are looking to create, sort of derivative, and 494 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,600 sort of secondary products out of these credits to appease sort 495 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,700 of Niche investors, who want to invest in this space and 496 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,600 essentially play the space as an investment opportunity. 497 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,700 Yeah. Used to cringe at this like, no, 498 00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:25,200 that's not what you do with these because I don't know it 499 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,400 just didn't feel right to me but I've come around on that and I 500 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,500 do think ultimately, Mately. Think about what happens if you 501 00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:35,500 can just create something from a carbon credit that people want 502 00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:38,300 to throw money at the net result. 503 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:42,300 If all goes well is that you get more investment flowing down to 504 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:46,700 projects to begin with and you create a virtuous cycle of more 505 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:51,100 Capital flowing, into developing more carbon removal projects. 506 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:53,800 And if that is the end result, then I'm all for it. 507 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,500 Create whatever. Kind of financial wizard. 508 00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:57,000 You want to bring to the to the game. 509 00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:59,200 Bringing it fade is assuming that one. 510 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,000 It doesn't get retired or it does. 511 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,600 This is the tradable sector is sort of a non-retirement 512 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,200 situation. So, I mean there's a lot of 513 00:28:05,208 --> 00:28:07,600 people were like no. Credit should be retired. 514 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,800 That's all that should happen. And I used to be in that camp 515 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,200 but I think I've switched to saying know if we want to create 516 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,500 new products out of that new Financial type products as we've 517 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:21,000 done with with mortgages and other Securities and things like 518 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,600 that great with the caveat that if the net result is that more 519 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,800 Capital flows, ultimately back to two projects because now 520 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,900 we've seen That there's a market for this stuff and there's an 521 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:34,200 appetite and you know, we need we need we need more projects to 522 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,000 be developed. So we can put more of these 523 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,800 credits on the market. So that more people can play in 524 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,200 this silly, you're going to have to convince me Jeremy. 525 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,100 I think I'm still in the camp of let's just retire. 526 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:46,800 The damn credits already, but I know that there's lots of people 527 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,700 to talk about using carbon credits. 528 00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:51,700 As a financial tool has something interchangeable. 529 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:53,700 I don't fully get that. Maybe it's because I'm not part 530 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:55,800 of like the whole defy refined movement. 531 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,200 Yet, I I'm not integrated on that exposed enough perhaps. 532 00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:02,900 But if we don't retire the credit and the credit keeps 533 00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:05,500 getting treated, isn't there the risk than that? 534 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,800 There isn't a new carbon credit than being purchased because not 535 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,500 the whole problem that if we don't retire them, then another 536 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:14,600 one won't be purchased and so another ton of CO2 won't be 537 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,500 removed. Am I over simplifying? 538 00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:19,700 This in my mind that's basically Nori's position is why we have a 539 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,500 Nori token and then nrt that are separated. 540 00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:24,800 So one thing is retired immediately and the other is the 541 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,100 tradable asset. But yeah, feel free Jeremy 542 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,200 Siobhan. You doing my job. 543 00:29:29,300 --> 00:29:30,100 For me. Thank you. 544 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:32,900 Yeah. Listen, again, I think I was in 545 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:36,300 your guys's camp and I've come around because the way I think 546 00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:40,300 about it is you take a bunch of these credits and you spin 547 00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:43,300 something up. Ultimately, if they're in 548 00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:47,200 certain vehicles that are not being retired, like you need 549 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:48,600 your kids to say that that's bad. 550 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,100 But if those vehicles are sort of creating value flow from 551 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:58,200 financial markets, into creating more projects, I do feel like 552 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,800 that could have a negative Positive effect. 553 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,300 Ultimately that's the same goal as you know, let's just retire 554 00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:06,900 them. We're just trying to get more 555 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:12,800 money into the system to get more projects to scale, CDR to 556 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,400 the you know, 10 Giga, tons per year by the end of the decade 557 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,700 that we know. We need to be very recently. 558 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,700 I had some friend asked me because I call obstacle, this is 559 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:22,500 how it works. Like the credit gets retired and 560 00:30:22,508 --> 00:30:27,500 they're like says who and I was like really good point. 561 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:30,600 Dude like says, who Like we're dealing with these intangible 562 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,200 credits and I guess is maybe we're watching him then more or 563 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,600 less religion comes in because it because ostensibly I know at 564 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,700 least the way that we're designing it and open Force 565 00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:42,200 protocol, there's essentially a retirement button, right? 566 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,100 Like you have a credit in a wall, a digital wallet, you hit 567 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:47,500 the retire button, right? And it's burned, like, it's 568 00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:50,800 still there, it's you can see that at that was done, but the 569 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,500 credit is stuck there forever, right? 570 00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:56,900 And no longer moves. And so that's like the says who, 571 00:30:56,900 --> 00:30:59,900 it's like, well, let me give you a Address. 572 00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:03,000 You can see that this happened you can see how many of these 573 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,200 were retired and that kind of puts that question to rest 574 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,700 learning something new. I didn't know you could like 575 00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:12,100 burn them on the Chain. So they couldn't be transacted 576 00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,500 again that they could. They were visible that Frozen. 577 00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,900 I think I've takers will like that feature, right? 578 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,600 It puts that one arrest. It's a oh yeah, okay. 579 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,000 Well it says me because look at this thing. 580 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,900 I can tell you exactly when this happened and you know, how many 581 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:29,100 of these were retired, I'm really interested in your point. 582 00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:33,000 About derivatives and to what degree this on net. 583 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,200 Good for carbon credits or carbon removals. 584 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,700 What happens when there's hundreds of millions of dollars 585 00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:41,100 moving around and its derivatives are weird, synthetic 586 00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:44,400 assets that are not merely representations of a ton of 587 00:31:44,408 --> 00:31:47,100 carbon dioxide or a certain ton years of carbon dioxide being 588 00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:49,000 stored. Is that good? 589 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,800 I mean I've had a financial Wizardry as a lot of complexity 590 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,800 to the system but also brings a lot of resources to Bear. 591 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,300 But if it's not done, right, it's not like more money is 592 00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:00,900 necessarily flow. Enter projects being developed, 593 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:03,800 which is are concerned. Why we originally split those 594 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,700 out, but you seem to think that it would on that be good to have 595 00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:12,300 Financial Wizardry. One might say a derivative 596 00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:14,500 layer. If we want to talk crypto about 597 00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:17,400 it on top of the rest of the market, why do you? 598 00:32:17,408 --> 00:32:19,500 What do you think that while I unpack a little bit for us 599 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,400 partially because I like stirring the pot being 600 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,800 contrarian, it's good, it's good. 601 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,200 I want to, I want to hear the answer for you and Ross both 602 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,700 contrary to the poor. And like I said, I've sort of 603 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:30,700 flip flops. On this, but that's the camp 604 00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:33,900 that I'm in today, I guess, no one knows how these things play 605 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:34,600 out. Long-term. 606 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,400 I think you could, you could imagine a future where it's 607 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,800 like, all of these unretired credits are spinning around in 608 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,500 this derivatives market and suddenly they get flooded and 609 00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:47,000 not purchased and now no one's actually buying new credits to 610 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,500 retire like that scenario. And I think I don't know. 611 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:50,700 Could that be the case? Could it not? 612 00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:54,900 I don't know, or will the way I am thinking about it is you're 613 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:59,900 creating an appetite from people who wouldn't otherwise Want to 614 00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:04,700 buy and retire a credit, they want to buy something of value 615 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:09,200 and basically create more value off of it being Financial sort 616 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,300 of Wall Street. Wizard has like this, this stuff 617 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:13,200 is, you know, I can't tell you how it gets done. 618 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,700 It's over, it's over my head and my skill set but the way that I 619 00:33:16,708 --> 00:33:19,600 imagined happened the net result being right. 620 00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:23,600 You have investors that don't want to mess with with carbon 621 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,100 credits but they see that, you know, they can throw some money 622 00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:29,100 into this machine and a little bit. 623 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,800 More comes out and the result being that the market now needs 624 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,800 to create more of these because everyone wants to play in this 625 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,000 game. So I think we all want the same 626 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,000 thing. I think we're sort of we're 627 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,000 telling different Futures about what happens, right? 628 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,700 That we all want more money to come into the system, to develop 629 00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:51,500 more projects. What happens with these 630 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,800 unretired credits that I think is something we can only try to 631 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,400 predict because you're a read. Fashions of a stock operator. 632 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,000 Do know that bug and what it's like a Traders Memoir from like 633 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,500 a hundred and something years ago, I think it read it when I 634 00:34:09,507 --> 00:34:12,400 was trying to learn more about how, like, equities and 635 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,699 commodities, markets work. But there used to be a thing 636 00:34:14,699 --> 00:34:18,000 called bucket, shops, back in the day, where you would 637 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,100 basically just bet on whether the price of something would go 638 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,900 up or down, but you wouldn't actually own the underlying 639 00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:27,600 asset or claim to it. So it's the derivative, yeah. 640 00:34:27,699 --> 00:34:29,100 Yeah. There's one more. 641 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:33,000 One more product was that actually adding anything to the 642 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,500 system in a meaningful way. Like, did it lead to more of 643 00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:39,199 them to the assets that were underlying, this betting game 644 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,900 was just, like, early stocks. This was an ox. 645 00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:46,900 So then you had, and then you may have had lots of, you know, 646 00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:51,000 entrepreneurs spinning up penny stock companies simply feed into 647 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,100 the system, right? And that's the analog to, you're 648 00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:56,199 going to have lots of project developers to be going out and 649 00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,600 like we need to, we need to plant a bunch of forest to feed 650 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,400 into the I mean, their underlying motive is greed, not 651 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,900 regen, but does it matter in the end? 652 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,600 I don't know. I guess was like the person the 653 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,500 person who is running the bucket shop would cover the other end 654 00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:14,700 of the bet I'm fairly would pool with others, but I'm sure. 655 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:18,000 I think that money just went between the Bettors and the 656 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200 house, I'm not sure if there was a feedback loop that even 657 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,000 included the underlying equities or Commodities. 658 00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:26,300 Like, I'm not sure if that would have been erected at all, I 659 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:28,100 recognized as someone listening might be like, that's not how 660 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:30,600 derivatives work now. And they actually do interact in 661 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,000 a more meaningful way. If you're listening that cetera 662 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,300 because reach out and tell me how derivatives actually 663 00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:39,600 forward, I'm gonna get painted as the Jordan Belfort of refi 664 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,200 now. So we should, we should probably 665 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,200 switch topics. No. 666 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,600 I think the guy has no concept Earth as so you both of you are 667 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,900 in advance of me. I didn't I've got the series 3, 668 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,900 licensure years ago for like mostly the way to train myself 669 00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,100 to think more about how Commodities and derivatives 670 00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:00,900 actually traitor. So I could be better at my job 671 00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:04,200 at Nori, but a lot of that stuff is like when you described it as 672 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,600 Wizardry entirely by that. It's a, it's almost a different 673 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,500 kind of mind that thinks in this way. 674 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,700 And I don't think it's mine but let's talk a little bit more 675 00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:17,800 about like the whole supply-demand stuff because I 676 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,900 feel like that's a Hot Topic. And in creating, you know, with 677 00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:25,000 whether it's open for spreadable or Norway, you know the idea is 678 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,200 to provide a supply to authenticate that supply and we 679 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,700 What about how Demand right now? Outstrip Supply. 680 00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:35,600 But honestly like if you look at like gigaton stays Gail, we are 681 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,700 still demand constrained in the sense that we still don't have. 682 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,500 Like, if you had 20 Giga, tons to offload, how easy would that 683 00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:47,200 be to offload, not very right, I don't think there's a lot of 684 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,200 people asking for, like, 20 Giga, tons worth of carbon, but 685 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,100 we need to get there right, Jeremy. 686 00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:58,900 How do you see, like the like, how do you factor open for 687 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:00,600 spread? Call into like the future of 688 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,700 like the supply demand curve at was a will be in maybe 10 years 689 00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:07,000 or 20 years like or you kind of dialed into the moment right now 690 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,100 like getting the customers you need now. 691 00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:13,200 Yeah, so I'm sure someone's done a study of right? 692 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,700 All of the Net Zero pledges and if and when all those come to 693 00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:21,200 fruition 2030 or whether that's 20 40 or 50 like what does 694 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:27,500 demand look like at that point probably Trover or McKinsey or 695 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,700 silveira has done a study? Like that. 696 00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:34,000 But, you know, the macro picture is, we are looking to the 697 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,600 Future. And we don't see a way to supply 698 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,700 the market given the current process. 699 00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:43,100 And that is a bullish case for for Open Force protocol that 700 00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:46,200 aims to be a new supplier to the market, right? 701 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,000 That that is sort of issuing, its own its own potential 702 00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:54,300 credits at a future date. And, you know, I think that as 703 00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:58,300 time moves on and hopefully these, you know, these Trends 704 00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:02,300 pan out, And that we will be able to fill gaps that. 705 00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:06,300 The current system simply isn't isn't feeling today and walk 706 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:09,400 into the future. So, we talked about tree humor, 707 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,000 I really haven't hit on any of our meetings yet, but we do 708 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,500 always try to make guests evaluate some of our memes or 709 00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:18,200 especially ones they're in their wheelhouse. 710 00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:22,000 So we act like Jason Hoffman to rate our like, death names. 711 00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:27,400 And I feel like when it comes to humor and CD, are we kind of do 712 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,700 one of two things with, with three Forest, And first of all, 713 00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:34,500 I love reforestation, and I generally think, is it as an 714 00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:36,800 individual? I'm agnostic as a thing as 715 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,800 thanks, a ton. We certainly try to be agnostic, 716 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:41,500 like, I really do believe we needed an all-of-the-above 717 00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:44,700 approach. I feel like trees are really 718 00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:47,800 easy, Wildfire joke, so I go for that a lot. 719 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,700 I also feel like there's the just plant trees kind of cohort. 720 00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:56,100 And that's an easy job to do too because it's like, well, not 721 00:38:56,100 --> 00:38:59,300 enough land and etcetera, Etc. But then I also feel like Like 722 00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:03,000 trees. I they become like the hero of 723 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,700 the joke. A lot of times when it's like, 724 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,700 cost comparing for popularity comparing or understanding, I 725 00:39:09,707 --> 00:39:14,300 like, I use trees as the analogy to communicate, all the other, 726 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:18,000 all the other methods to people. And like, I use trees to 727 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,700 communicate, like, vintages of CDR, right? 728 00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:22,900 Because sometimes there's a CDR vintage that you're paying for 729 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:26,000 now that won't, you know, that it gets in the queue and that 730 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,500 credit actually won't be removed. 731 00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:29,100 That ton will be removed from the atmosphere. 732 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:33,700 For a year maybe or something. And so I tell people and explain 733 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:36,700 that by saying, well, it's like planting a tree, like you plant 734 00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:40,300 the tree on day one, that doesn't mean the ton is removed 735 00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:43,700 on day one, you know, like and so I feel like I always come 736 00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:47,400 back to trees as like this foundational explainer for 737 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,200 carbon removal and maybe that's because they're by far the most 738 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,100 widely known and accepted method I would say. 739 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,800 And now you know now I feel like there's like all this kind of 740 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,000 controversy within Academia about Durability. 741 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,100 And we do. Where should we be investing? 742 00:40:02,100 --> 00:40:04,300 Most resources that I'm like, I don't know. 743 00:40:04,308 --> 00:40:06,100 Are we really are? We really fighting over the 744 00:40:06,107 --> 00:40:07,700 scraps? Let's just invest in everything, 745 00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:09,800 guys, I don't know. What do you think of like the do 746 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,500 you think trees are an easy story to tell? 747 00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:15,700 Do you think trees are good? Fodder for climate humor? 748 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,500 I think they're both. I think there's very few people 749 00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:22,000 who are opposed to trees right there. 750 00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:25,300 The pretty easy thing to at least be agnostic about, if not 751 00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:28,600 to say, I love trees like what there's nothing wrong with 752 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,900 trees. And that's kind of like that's 753 00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:33,400 the case study for photosynthesis that we all learn 754 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,200 back in sixth grade biology or whatever. 755 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,300 Is like yeah these trees pull carbon out of the air and that's 756 00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,100 what they're made of like, okay? So like harkening back to that 757 00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:47,000 like original lesson on nature-based drawdown. 758 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,000 Yeah, it is sort of that's, that's the tree example that 759 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,600 gets drilled into our heads or at least got get rolled into 760 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,800 mind and I actually moved away from nature based solutions, 761 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,100 kind of just thought, okay, this isn't This isn't it? 762 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,000 You can tell I mean, obviously I flip-flop on a lot of things 763 00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:07,500 because I'm open to new ideas and and I take in a lot of ideas 764 00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:11,100 and ultimately I did come back to trees for a number of 765 00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:12,900 reasons. And I think one of them is sort 766 00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,400 of analogous to like this whole wall would have. 767 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,300 Climate change is a hoax. Well. 768 00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:20,000 Okay, fine. Then we at least will have clean 769 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,700 clean water and very clean air, right? 770 00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:26,700 And and you have all these co-benefits, right? 771 00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:30,800 So even if the trees are Terrible climate solution. 772 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,300 They're not. You still have these massive 773 00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:35,300 co-benefits and those those markets are. 774 00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:38,600 We talked about, biodiversity briefly beginning like those 775 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,200 those types of markets are I think maybe going to a Clips 776 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,700 carbon at some point and then in the coming decades. 777 00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:50,900 But yeah, it's a meme for sure. I mean, particularly in the, in 778 00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:56,100 the CDR nerd world, I've been kind of moved away from using 779 00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:58,700 the term CDR when it comes to reforestation. 780 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,700 Maybe it's more sequestration because maybe there has to be a 781 00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:06,600 certain length of durability to qualify for the term removal. 782 00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:08,700 Maybe it's a sequestration, right? 783 00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:11,300 And I get it right. We've got to suss out our 784 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:13,800 terminology as a, as an industry. 785 00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:18,000 But we also have to do that without getting to tribal and 786 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,200 fighting but with tribalism and inviting come really fun memes. 787 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,200 So there's a trade-off there. That's that's our father there 788 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:26,700 now but I'm with you. I feel like you know, the 789 00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:30,400 inciting isn't super helpful and You know, photosynthesis at the 790 00:42:30,408 --> 00:42:33,200 end of the day, whether it's in planting trees and we call that 791 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,300 the, the complete cycle, the complete method of carbon 792 00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:38,900 removal and storage or if it's in one of the plethora of other 793 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:40,900 solutions that require photosynthesis. 794 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:43,900 Like I recently made a tick tock because I wanted to explain 795 00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:45,900 photosynthesis but then I realized like, oh wow. 796 00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:50,200 But like biochar and Bio-Oil and tell them like leaves all 797 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,000 relying on photosynthesis. There's so many solutions that 798 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,400 actually the mechanism for where you're moving, the molecule is 799 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,300 via photosynthesis and then it becomes As the storage mechanism 800 00:43:00,300 --> 00:43:02,300 is kind of where the humans get more involved. 801 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,000 Anyways rest you want to pull up some of our forest names and 802 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,900 maybe we can have Jeremy right? Them minutes here. 803 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,900 I mean yeah I just have like one. 804 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,700 I pulled it from a tree memes page, ourselves only to share it 805 00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:18,500 and we were going to recapture it for our own purposes. 806 00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:19,900 But yeah, here's a, here's a tree. 807 00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:23,100 When I don't even know, I fully understood it but hey can you 808 00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:24,800 see this? Oh, you can help us. 809 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,000 We've been working on this one, we've been workshopping this. 810 00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:31,500 So we want to convert this into Pure CDR meme using this format, 811 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,700 it's a picture of Luke Wilson, doing the like a tiny blip to 812 00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:38,900 like kind of Grimace face that he's known for and this is Luke 813 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:40,600 Wilson's. Always looks like you just told 814 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,200 them and insert your own caption but this one is his tree. 815 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,200 Wasn't struck by lightning. It just fell apart because of 816 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,700 codominant stems with included Bart. 817 00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:54,100 This is way too deep for instructors. 818 00:43:56,100 --> 00:43:58,900 I don't know, that's what is with this deep forest. 819 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,300 It took me a really long time to think it through and then and 820 00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:06,600 then I lap so I like it might need to simplify the language a 821 00:44:06,607 --> 00:44:08,700 little bit. But oh yeah, I just pulled this. 822 00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:10,200 I'm going to. I'm ditching that entire 823 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,100 capturing. We thought of some options being 824 00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:14,800 like Luke Wilson. Always looks like you just told 825 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,300 him. We can figure out the mrv later. 826 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,500 Just told him I got the energy requirements of direct are 827 00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:23,600 capture. It's just sitting there. 828 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,800 So, I don't know, we have to figure it out. 829 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,800 Be well, if you were to put a tree when I'm here, let's live 830 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,000 meme this. But we say like look, well son 831 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,900 looks like he just told him that dbh is not sufficient to measure 832 00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:37,200 a tree. Luke Wilson. 833 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,600 Always looks like you just told him that Forest project 834 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,900 operators should collect and Report their own data, okay? 835 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,500 Okay, operational joke, I like it. 836 00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:52,000 All right, you guys like just measuring like, throwing 837 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,200 measuring tape around the base of it or something. 838 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,400 I get what I explained? Our RFP process before I get to 839 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,700 the second part of it, where I'm like, well, yeah, no. 840 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,600 We're letting the, the Project's collect their own data. 841 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,300 And I get this face, then I get to the part where it's where 842 00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:14,900 it's validated, you know, dozens to hundreds of times in a public 843 00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:18,500 blockchain and the Improvement that, that provides over the 844 00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:21,400 Legacy process. But again, that's I've seen this 845 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,600 look before I will say that. Together on, we gotta keep 846 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,400 working that Workshop in that one, but it seems like a pretty 847 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,000 good place to conclude for today. 848 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,900 Jeremy as we wrap up our their resources, you want to direct 849 00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:37,900 people towards. I'll put links to this in the 850 00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:40,400 show notes to whatever you'd like, people to see. 851 00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:43,000 I would say, open Forest protocol. 852 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,500 Dot-org would be the place to go to get some information. 853 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,200 There's some opportunities there to get involved in the 854 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,300 community. If you're interested, we're 855 00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:54,400 building a validator network, which Which we didn't talk about 856 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,400 much but essentially that is Forest expert organizations who 857 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,400 lend credibility to the verification of the data. 858 00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:05,200 So essentially we're taking the best thing from web to which I 859 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,000 would say, is a network, right? The ability to build networks 860 00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:12,100 and we're creating a network of verification bodies that 861 00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:15,400 coordinate to review. All of that self-reported data 862 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,700 from from the forest, the reason I mention this is, if you feel 863 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:22,300 like you are one of those forests expert organizations. 864 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,500 We'd love to hear from And potentially add you to the 865 00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:29,600 network and you can help us build the future of DMR. 866 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,200 Be distributed Mr. P. Wow. 867 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,800 That's the first time I've heard that initialism but certainly 868 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,800 won't be the last. Well, thanks for being here, 869 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:39,900 Jeremy. I was a lot of fun. 870 00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:42,600 Thanks guys. Good rap with a nice. 871 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,400 Nice talking with you is. I'm glad I got to get a little, 872 00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:50,500 a little education in Webster and whatnots and carbon Finance 873 00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:54,800 of which, I am sorely lacking. That's um Boy I think Siobhan 874 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:56,800 like all right, enough derivative stuff. 875 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,000 I'm taking control of this conversations. 876 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,100 Jana get far away from this. Sorry. 877 00:47:01,100 --> 00:47:03,400 Siobhan thanks so much for listening. 878 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,400 If you like what we do here, please give us a great rating 879 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,000 and review on Apple podcast and Spotify send to a friend and 880 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,700 thanks so much for hanging out with us. 881 00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:19,100 We always appreciate it. Thanks thank you so much for 882 00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:20,700 listening. If you could please subscribe 883 00:47:20,700 --> 00:47:23,700 and give us a great rating and review on Apple podcast or a On 884 00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:26,000 Spotify that be much appreciated. 885 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,900 It helps us get our content out to more people. 886 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,400 You can sign up for our newsletter at nor e.com. 887 00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:33,000 Follow us on social media. We will catch you next time.