1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,400 You're listening to the reversing climate change podcast 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,400 by Nori. The world's first carbon removal 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,800 Marketplace, here are your hosts Ross, Kenyon and Christoph 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,200 jospeh. Hello. 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,700 Welcome to the reversing climate change podcast. 6 00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:23,000 I'm Christoph just by sitting here with my co-host, Ross, 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,000 Kenyon, and producer, Paul a really exciting episode that we 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,200 have usually Ross introduces, but today, we're going to Let 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,400 Ross introduce the guests because he knows him personally. 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,600 So Ross, why don't you start us off here? 11 00:00:35,100 --> 00:00:37,400 Yeah, we're here with joke work in Oakland. 12 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,500 I've worked a little bit insulting wise with blueprint 13 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,200 ears, which is Jose company and among his co-founders. 14 00:00:43,700 --> 00:00:49,000 And they do see setting, which is this wacky idea of building 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,200 floating Platforms in the ocean. That retains some degree of 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,900 autonomy to determine their own rules, depending on where they 17 00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:57,000 are. Don't want to put too many words 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,300 in your mouth, though. I want to use evangelize a 19 00:00:59,308 --> 00:01:01,400 little bit. That's That's your title, right? 20 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:04,500 Yes, I am a sieve Angeles Times. Great hydrate portmanteau. 21 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:06,200 Yeah, that's trying to figure it out. 22 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,600 Is it s EA or SCA? Okay. 23 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:12,500 So it's a play on evangelist and see and it is in fact wacky. 24 00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:16,900 It's very nearly as wacky as trying to change the world by 25 00:01:17,100 --> 00:01:19,700 clicking little levers in private booths for special 26 00:01:19,700 --> 00:01:21,300 politicians and hoping the world does. 27 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:26,500 If you want purple ously utopian view of the world makes a lot 28 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:28,600 more sense and it's much more realistic to go build your own 29 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,300 little miniature. Action. 30 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:33,300 Yeah, I wish it was a little bit easier to try that. 31 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:35,800 When you when you described it as Dan Carlin has this way of 32 00:01:35,808 --> 00:01:39,700 approaching politics is like the view from Mars or if you're 33 00:01:39,700 --> 00:01:41,600 explaining it. So I like to a Marcin. 34 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:43,200 Yeah. You be like, yeah, you're just, 35 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,500 you're just pulling little levers and then lie. 36 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:48,200 I people do things off of that, that you don't really have any 37 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,700 control of after that point. If you like, this doesn't sound 38 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:53,800 always like the greatest of ways to do things, right? 39 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:56,600 And then the Martian would say so I assume you call this planet 40 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,900 ocean, you say no no we call it planet Earth. 41 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:01,000 He's like well. More than two-thirds of it is 42 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,600 planet ocean. What are you doing with all 43 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,900 that? It's like no, we just stay on 44 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:08,000 land and then we fight amongst each other about who gets to 45 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,800 control everybody else through the political process. 46 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:13,800 Yeah, I'd suppose. That is one way of looking at 47 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,400 it. So blue Frontiers and you've 48 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,500 also been involved in see sitting before blue Frontiers 49 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:20,300 was a thing. Why don't you tell us a little 50 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:22,900 bit about why you're here and why you are about the things 51 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:26,100 that you care about? Well, I'm an author I, right? 52 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,200 I tell stories, basically, that's what I've been doing and 53 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,000 the main thing I do is listen. In to really smart people and 54 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,300 force them to explain it. 20 times until a dumb person 55 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:38,300 understands it. And then, once I can explain it, 56 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:40,200 that I can explain it like a guy in the bar. 57 00:02:40,900 --> 00:02:43,700 So I have written novels, I've written science books. 58 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:47,000 I wrote a book about Evolution called, it's not you, it's 59 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,900 biology. The science of love sex and 60 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:51,700 relationships, which is basically, I take academic 61 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:53,500 papers about evolutionary psychology. 62 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:56,700 I put it in English whereupon, it becomes automatically funny, 63 00:02:57,100 --> 00:02:59,800 and then I make all the money off the scientists work. 64 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:03,800 But I came to but I kind of translation in a nutshell, right 65 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,500 there is. Yeah, they couldn't say that 66 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,500 without using obscure words you that you don't understand. 67 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,500 So but I came to understand the power of variation and 68 00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:19,100 selection. It's the the secret recipe that 69 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:22,800 drives forward progress. So the microphones were using 70 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,000 right now, many different forms have been proposed and they 71 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,700 survive by people selecting them and whatever it. 72 00:03:29,900 --> 00:03:32,700 Is the selecting it ends up getting better and better just 73 00:03:32,700 --> 00:03:36,800 for them so it works in life. It works in technology. 74 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,700 It works in consumer goods that works in language, doesn't 75 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:43,200 really occur in governance itself, the most important 76 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,400 service in the world. And because, you know, if you 77 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,800 want to vary and select among your governments, you need as 78 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,400 Pottery Friedman, points out a revolution or a war or an 79 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,600 economic collapse and who has time for that. 80 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,100 Let's just stick with what we got. 81 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:02,000 So I always thought that was sort of an intractable problem 82 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,100 and then I was on a cruise ship and I noticed that the cruise 83 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:10,800 ship was a floating city and it was the highest standard of 84 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,700 living I'd ever had. And it was cheaper than the 85 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:17,200 coastal Hotel. I'd stayed in the night before I 86 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,899 went as on the cruise ship. I also noticed a lot of the 87 00:04:19,899 --> 00:04:22,700 people working on the cruise ship or from the developing 88 00:04:22,700 --> 00:04:25,900 world and they were living a much better life on the cruise 89 00:04:25,900 --> 00:04:27,900 ship than they would live elsewhere and I couldn't figure 90 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:30,400 out why is this? In City better. 91 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,700 I didn't really have an example. I didn't really have an 92 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:37,000 understanding but I could see that it was somehow a floating 93 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,500 city and it was flying the flag of like Panama or Liberia. 94 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,500 So I said, well, this is interesting in some way, it's 95 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:46,000 like self-governing then about six weeks later, I was at my 96 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,700 10th Burning Man. And anybody who goes to Burning, 97 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:54,300 Man, 10 times notices that rules evolve in ways that are not 98 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:56,700 predictable given their initial parameters. 99 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,300 So I watched it, develop over it. 100 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,700 Decade. And you start to discover 101 00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:04,400 interesting things about the way people can live together that 102 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,800 you wouldn't have thought were possible and invariably you 103 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,100 start thinking, wouldn't it be cool if we had more of these, 104 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:11,300 wouldn't be cool. If we had hundreds all over the 105 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:13,900 world blank slates everywhere, where people could from the 106 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:16,100 bottom up experiment, with their own societies. 107 00:05:16,700 --> 00:05:18,400 People want to laugh at Burning Man, but you look at the 108 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,200 challenges, they face especially environmental ones. 109 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,500 If you proposed to people, let's have a temporary city of 60,000. 110 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:28,900 People set itself up in the middle of a flat featureless 111 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:31,100 desert. In their own food, through own 112 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:34,100 water, and their own porta-potties and then they're 113 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:37,200 committed to leaving, no Trace. They all have to move out and 114 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,500 take everything with them such that, you know, people who come 115 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:42,700 and scan the desert for the most part. 116 00:05:42,700 --> 00:05:44,700 Can't tell. The people were there, is this 117 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:46,700 even possible. I would say it's not possible 118 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,700 but by developing techniques for this over time, they can solve 119 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:53,000 amazing, social environmental problems. 120 00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:56,600 So you start thinking well what if there were more experiments 121 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,100 with Badr nups Society formation and more Places. 122 00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:03,400 I'm not the only person to think that way and it will just leave 123 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,100 and start your own country or there's you can't do anything 124 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:07,600 like that, right. Right. 125 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,300 You can't leave and start your own country because all land is 126 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:11,800 claimed by existing government's. 127 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:14,500 It was at Burning Man, where someone introduced me to Pottery 128 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:16,700 Friedman. Pottery made explained with 129 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:18,600 seasteading was, and I didn't understand. 130 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,200 I thought, he said, see, scaping and my wife is an esthetician. 131 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,200 So I thought this had something to do with escapes Brazilians or 132 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,200 something. And he describe very briefly 133 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,100 this Be floating cities in the ocean and because I just been on 134 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:35,200 a cruise ship I said yeah technologically I think Humanity 135 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,900 could go in that situation. Seems a little weird that 136 00:06:37,900 --> 00:06:41,200 someone would start a non-profit to make this happen sooner than 137 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,800 would otherwise occur and I walked away and then after 138 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,800 burning man I noticed that the seasteading logo was based on 139 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,800 the Burning Man logo and that really caught my eye. 140 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,200 Why would propose cities on the ocean? 141 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,300 Be modeled after a temporary City in the desert? 142 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,500 Kurt, I'm vaguely remembered the name, Patrick freshman or 143 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:05,300 something, and I sort of Googling and I found his blog 144 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,900 and that's when I had my conversion moment. 145 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,900 As so pottery, elucidated that you could solve this problem of 146 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:16,900 monopolies governments that don't evolve that aren't subject 147 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:20,400 to variation and selection, if you weren't on land, but if 148 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,300 you're on water and the very ground Beneath Your Feet could 149 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:27,500 disassemble, according to the choices of residents, and you 150 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:29,300 can essentially vote with your house as possible. 151 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:31,400 We put it usually modular, right? 152 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,100 You could fully modular. Yeah, you could disassociate go 153 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:36,500 somewhere else. You can join a new group, right? 154 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,700 Yeah. And as long as people could 155 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:42,800 choose societies, you wouldn't need a monopoly on governments. 156 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:47,400 You would have variation by societies and selection by 157 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,300 citizens, which to me in principle, would unleash 158 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,700 evolution in governance itself. The most important service that 159 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:59,200 exists all social problems flow Downstream from governance. 160 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,600 It's and I also understood that this is technologically 161 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,000 feasible. I don't understand the the 162 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,800 fundamentals of a II, don't understand the fundamentals of 163 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,800 all sorts of Technologies. I definitely understand cruise 164 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,900 ships platforms. Governance disassembling. 165 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:17,000 I'm like this is this needs to happen as soon as possible 166 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,600 because it could solve a very deep problem simply by setting 167 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,000 better examples, that show something to Old governments, 168 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:28,800 and we little appreciate how small Nimble government set 169 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,400 examples. End up changing the policies of 170 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:34,500 old big Continental governments. I can give you many examples of 171 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:37,000 that differ fintech. I always look to Luxembourg 172 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,900 Liechtenstein that came in Jersey. 173 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:42,400 Guernsey a little tiny, tiny, little islands and little 174 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,000 political entities, right. Great examples, great examples 175 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,000 and even something like just simple things like East, onea 176 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,900 experiments with the flat tax. So, he Stony was one of the 177 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,900 countries that was suddenly independent after the USSR 178 00:08:57,100 --> 00:09:02,200 disassembled into small, little It's so Estonia, initiated this 179 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,900 crazy idea called the flat tax which was Unthinkable. 180 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:09,200 Everyone thought it was crazy. And then they immediately grew 181 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,700 at more than twice the rate of other Eastern European countries 182 00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:15,300 and Western European countries which were all growing at the 183 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:19,500 time this started a debate among other countries about the flat 184 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:22,700 tax and now something like 20% of countries have initiated a 185 00:09:22,708 --> 00:09:25,000 flat tax. Many American states, have a 186 00:09:25,008 --> 00:09:27,700 flat tax. We would not have that 187 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:29,300 Innovation if this small little country. 188 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,700 Hadn't tried this. So the more countries you can 189 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:36,100 proliferate, the more examples they can set the more bigger 190 00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:39,600 Nations change their policies. So we're talking about this is 191 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,600 sort of an abstraction, it's sort of like at the root of 192 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,700 society, how it could you redo things and allow people to 193 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:49,000 experiment with their own ideas? But once I talked to seasteading 194 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,400 Institute into letting me co-wrote the book with Pottery, 195 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,900 I kind of panicked because I realize, I can't just make this 196 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:57,900 about ideas and it wasn't until I went to the 2012. 197 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:00,500 Seasteading conference, And met the people. 198 00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:04,800 I would later call aquaporin, oars, who are actually working 199 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,200 on the solutions that that Nori cares about like, you know, 200 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,800 seaweed that can absorb, you know, carbonic acid from the 201 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,300 ocean and you could have restorative foods and algae 202 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:19,700 farms and fish farms. And once you have actual 203 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:23,600 innovators coming to seasteading with their solution, you realize 204 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,300 this is a story about people and the solutions they can bring it 205 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:30,600 attracts people like you guys and Buddy with a new idea for 206 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,400 how Society can be done better. That needs a startup Society 207 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,900 comes to the seasteading institute at is now getting 208 00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:39,200 involved with the startup company blue Frontiers. 209 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,900 So I want to interject here Joe. This is actually we never talked 210 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:44,600 about how exactly we came up with no worry. 211 00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:47,200 We went through this whole brainstorming process but 212 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,600 reading your book and your sections on aquaculture and 213 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,500 seaweed cultivation and its potential for not only just good 214 00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:56,600 business sense and feeding the world but also decarbonizing the 215 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,400 oceans, it made me quite an impact on me. 216 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,700 Would you guys agree? With that, I think it was one of 217 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:03,000 my primary Inspirations for the name. 218 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,600 Yeah, yeah. On top of that. 219 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,200 It's one of those. Very simple things that humans 220 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,500 can do, that allows something to proliferate rapidly and like you 221 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:14,300 say, from the ground up, or in this case, from the sea up. 222 00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:18,500 So, I read your book. I loved it already, we've all 223 00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:20,300 read it and I book, Paul gave it to me. 224 00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:24,800 Paul actually gave it to me when he was off to Tahiti, to go on a 225 00:11:24,808 --> 00:11:26,400 trip. That was organized by Blue 226 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,600 Frontiers. But a number of the things you 227 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,600 just said really. Resonate that I want to pick up 228 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,100 on one of them is volunteers, can do something quickly and 229 00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:36,600 don't need to wait and they can experiment and when those 230 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,900 experiments actually take a foothold that can influence the 231 00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:42,400 rest of the world and actually create something, that's a 232 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,500 better system for society. And I really feel like we live 233 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:47,000 at this moment. When all of these things are 234 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,400 coming together, we have a population that is growing and 235 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,100 you have people who quite frankly, don't have a place to 236 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:57,600 go, you have land which is being used up, you have governments, 237 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,700 which are oppressive or Holding down on people, you have 238 00:12:00,700 --> 00:12:04,300 environmentalists who are For Better or Worse. 239 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:08,100 Want to innovate, but don't have the space to innovate or to try 240 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:11,000 new ideas. You have a number of health 241 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,900 problems. You have all of these cures that 242 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:17,100 when you bring them together and under a large umbrella, which it 243 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:20,500 seems like his decease upsetting Institute and the company that's 244 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,800 advancing this blue Frontiers you could really Drive some real 245 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,800 change in. What is maybe just a dream at 246 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:29,200 Burning Man starts to become a reality. 247 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,600 Is that about, right? Can we see that? 248 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,100 This isn't just some crazy idea, but it's actually taking 249 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,300 foothold in. There's actually a plan to start 250 00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:39,900 scaling these. Yes, it's a, it's a necessary 251 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:41,700 idea. Like Humanity doesn't realize 252 00:12:41,700 --> 00:12:45,700 their, it's pushing towards the oceans and innovators are trying 253 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:48,600 to get Beyond existing jurisdictions. 254 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,100 The same way Europeans were coming to the New World to try 255 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:56,100 something new because the rules don't adapt and all these these 256 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:59,200 aquaporin ores I met at the seasteading. 257 00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:01,700 Houses and another, you know, reaching out to The seasteading 258 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:04,400 Institute that a feature in the book, all of them, have these 259 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,100 great ideas that they can't push forward. 260 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:10,600 You know the seaweed farmer Ricardo do levitch, the 261 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,200 aquaculture regulations are written in a previous century 262 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,900 and they're not adaptable to the new technologies that are coming 263 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:20,700 online. And I've talked to many seaweed 264 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:24,000 farmers in California and Mexico, and all sorts of places 265 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,300 that are trying to get outside existing system. 266 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:30,500 So they so they can do the new. Things they need regulatory 267 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:33,700 startups, fish Farmers. It's really tragic, you know, 268 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:36,600 Neil Sims who I also feature in the book. 269 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,700 And there's many more like him who have scaled up these mobile 270 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:44,500 sustainable, Buckminster Fuller fish cages that swim with the 271 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:48,300 schooling fish and completely defy all the problems with 272 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,600 traditional fish farming. Still have to cope with the laws 273 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,200 and regulations written for those old fish farms in the 274 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,300 1980s. You know, people are dying for 275 00:13:57,300 --> 00:13:58,900 regulatory startups, where they can push. 276 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:03,800 Word new Innovations. And everyone is trying to get 277 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,800 out there. Trying to get Beyond these 278 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,300 crusty old rules and start the, you know, the new century and a 279 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,600 lot of them reach out to sea stating, and a lot of them have 280 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:14,700 are now volunteering at Blue Frontiers. 281 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,800 Yeah, I guess maybe this would be a good point to explain. 282 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,300 What is blue Frontiers? And I also want to bring Paul 283 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,200 into this and hear about his little jaunt over there. 284 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:28,600 So blue Frontier is the result of French Polynesia the 285 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,000 president. Polynesia. 286 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,500 In fact, writing a letter to the seasteading Institute inviting 287 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:38,100 us to come check out French Polynesia as a potential host 288 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:43,400 site for the first see studs. And when you want to actually 289 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,500 it's one thing to promote an idea through a non-profit. 290 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:48,700 But if you want to actually build c-stands, you're going to 291 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:53,400 need an actual startup company. And so blue, Frontiers is the 292 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:58,100 startup company that is putting together all the experts under 293 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:02,700 one umbrella. One company and a large group of 294 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:06,600 like 70 to 90 active volunteers at this point in various areas 295 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,100 of expertise. And today is the day we 296 00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:11,300 launched. See coin. 297 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,100 You guys are here the day. We launched out. 298 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:18,000 You want the launched? I feel like we all miss this. 299 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,400 Yeah. I think it just happened today. 300 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,100 I think I can say launch or how about an ounce, I think the sale 301 00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:26,500 will be in May, but the Public Announcement and the thing on 302 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,700 the website and and the existence of see go Is now 303 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:32,800 public as of today. Well congratulations. 304 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,400 The Theta here. We will continue to need your 305 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,000 guidance. The regulations around launching 306 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,900 new tokens is quite onerous and sometimes changing and various 307 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:45,000 agencies claim it and are duking it out. 308 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,000 Amongst themselves to figure out who will have the privilege and 309 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,900 authority of having the final say. 310 00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:53,000 So, it has been an intellectually stimulating 311 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,500 question, though, at times quite frustrating. 312 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,000 I'm sure you probably feel similarly, yes. 313 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,000 But you can also So imagine the situation that these various 314 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,100 agencies are in. We're you know, they have 315 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:07,800 protocols, they have setups, they have definitions of things. 316 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,400 And now there's a new innovation that doesn't fit any of those 317 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,600 rules. So they can even decide who's in 318 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,400 charge, what's position? We're going to take on this and 319 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,700 they're trying to figure it out. It's much better. 320 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:21,700 If we could have rules emerge from the bottom up in that space 321 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,700 rather than using old paradigms. So, as long as people get pretty 322 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:28,800 caught up into that precautionary principle way of 323 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,000 thinking, Regulation where there have been explicit cases of 324 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,800 Fraud and scams that have happened in the cryptocurrency 325 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,800 space, but those people have been prosecuted often, they've 326 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,700 been subpoenaed when things have happened, but I don't 327 00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:44,700 necessarily want to just apply the old rules or make rules up 328 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:47,200 out of nowhere. Just based on ideas we'd have I 329 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,800 I much prefer the regulatory sandbox approach that you're 330 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,000 describing. Let it mature a little bit. 331 00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:54,900 One of the great analogies I've heard for this is Imagine like 332 00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:56,700 the internet starting and you had to come up with all the 333 00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,100 rules for the internet before it had even mature. 334 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,900 Richard Wright would that have the late it would ever have 335 00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:04,000 become the thing that it is now right? 336 00:17:04,099 --> 00:17:06,200 What did I don't even know? It's probably terrible. 337 00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:09,400 Yeah, it would be terrible. If they had tried to regulate it 338 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,599 with rules from the 1950s, they wouldn't be able to imagine what 339 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:17,700 it's going to be like. But if you know, no one wants to 340 00:17:17,708 --> 00:17:19,500 work in an industry with no rules. 341 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:23,599 But if you establish the rules from the, from the bottom up 342 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,400 within the industries, among the experts actually involved, 343 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:28,800 creating rules is also a discovery process. 344 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,200 It's not The discovery of innovation, its discovery of the 345 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,200 rules that go along with it and I don't cite as an example. 346 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,200 The rules that operate on the ocean and I'd kind of like to 347 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,400 write a book about this, that I'd kind of like to call the 348 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,400 stateless half of the earth about. 349 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,900 There's regulatory bodies, there's food safety bodies, 350 00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:50,000 there's all sorts of decentralized, there's safety 351 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:55,600 and for sirs that there's like 50 ship classification Societies 352 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,100 in the world that all compete to be the one to regulate the 353 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,600 Adding of ships. And it's not state-controlled at 354 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,100 all, it's completely free market. 355 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:06,400 And there's all sorts of complex rules that have developed on the 356 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,100 ocean that in a sort of decentralized way, which is what 357 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,800 we'd like to unleash on see studs. 358 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,200 Yeah. Whenever I think of maritime 359 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,100 law, I'm sure. Paul, you're the same to you. 360 00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:20,000 Immediately think of Michael Bluth and Arrested Development. 361 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:21,900 Yeah, they can't prosecute you for treason out there. 362 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,800 That's right. Well, when you talk about 363 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,800 maritime law emerging, I know a decent amount about it. 364 00:18:26,808 --> 00:18:30,600 Not too much, but I know the Hans Like league and the Baltic 365 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,700 was quite big. You'll like German trading 366 00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:36,200 cities there, but this whole Corpus of law just emerged 367 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,400 through people having judges, make decisions and using those 368 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,200 as precedence, and it just sort of had a tendency to work rather 369 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,900 than legislators sitting around in the building and trying to 370 00:18:45,908 --> 00:18:48,300 figure out the best way to do that and being lobbied and said 371 00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:51,000 you had judges being like, no, this is the way that it works 372 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,500 and it's best. If we do it this way, is that 373 00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:56,600 broadly how it works? Yes, it was created by judges 374 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,800 over time and also even will the Han Giada klieg. 375 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,400 That's certainly true. But also created among 376 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,400 Merchants, where we need some means of getting along with as 377 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,500 an accepted set of rules that we can all agree on so we can all 378 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:11,500 do business together and when the people making the rules are 379 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,300 incentivized to have the disputes be resolved as quickly 380 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:16,800 as possible. You often end up with like this 381 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,100 term, the fluidity of rulemaking and Rapid Evolution where bad 382 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,800 rules go away. But rules that people like tend 383 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,300 to stay and there's a whole complex way of describing that, 384 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:30,900 you know, once you kind of garokk Seasteading blue Frontier 385 00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:34,000 as idea, you can kind of drill down into all the ways. 386 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,200 This is really great. You know, then it becomes well 387 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,500 why should French Polynesia other island nations be 388 00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:44,200 interested in this Palace Joe. Well well so the problem of the 389 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,500 lack of innovation in governance is a deep problem in the world 390 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,300 but the other big problem in the world is sea level. 391 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:53,400 Change threatening Coastal nations in the specially island 392 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,000 nations around the world. French Polynesia is worried. 393 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,300 They're going to lose a third of their Islands by the end of this 394 00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:00,500 century. At least have their water table, 395 00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:03,600 severely threatened. So if you can go to Coastal and 396 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,000 island nations and proposed a way that they can organically 397 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,500 adapt to sea level. Rise affordably in exchange for 398 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:16,000 baby step experiments with C stands. 399 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:20,400 Where each step the risk of failure is absorbed by the 400 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,300 people building. The see, stead's not the country 401 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:26,500 itself and each success. The prosperity is shared 402 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:29,100 locally, then you can start this. 403 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,700 Scaling up of platforms that allow people to adjust to sea 404 00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:36,400 level change that experiment with new ways of governing 405 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,900 ourselves. And we kind of step-by-step 406 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:42,900 affordably solve two of the biggest problems in the world, 407 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,600 which is the change in sea level, and the need for start-up 408 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,300 innovation in society. We always love every startup 409 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:54,400 that they combine two fields that are already complicated and 410 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,000 misunderstood we do Climate Change Plus blockchain. 411 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:01,900 You're like, uh, or you can do yours, is that pretty much the 412 00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:06,200 same but if you can add Ai and machine learning and everything 413 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,400 else to do, and I always, we are a are, ya know, oftentimes, 414 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,600 you'll see like three or four appendages on to startups like 415 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,600 that and scary. Like, there's no way you're good 416 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,000 at probably even one of these. Maybe maybe two. 417 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,300 Yes, I always get it to where you say something fall. 418 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,200 But yeah, why don't you tell the listeners about your trip out to 419 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,400 French Polynesia and what you're up to it? 420 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,200 Blu Frontiers yeah. So last Our Ross came to me, 421 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,200 Rasta been working the blue Frontiers. 422 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,800 And he told me about this week that we Frontiers is hosting 423 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,600 where they were inviting people out to come, see Tahiti and 424 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,700 French Polynesia. And learn more about the project 425 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:48,100 and share ideas and kind of generally try to contribute to 426 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:52,200 the growth of seasteading and I was super fascinated. 427 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,600 I first came across seasteading in I want to say 2010 or 2011 or 428 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,500 so that event at ASU that Patrizio Oh cat? 429 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:02,900 No, no. I, I think I think somebody at 430 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:04,800 ASU might have told me about that and that's how I heard 431 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,800 about it. So I was interested in it from 432 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,800 the governance perspective. So as someone who sees the same 433 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,000 sort of issues with slow movement and policy change, and 434 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,200 Ill adaptations to the modern world, the idea of having a 435 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:23,100 sovereign floating cities that can experiment with different 436 00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:25,900 ways of governing people, is really appealing to me, but 437 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,400 then, it wasn't until Ross told me about this. 438 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,400 So, A got your book Joe and I read it and everything clicked 439 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,500 into place for me. Because what I really liked 440 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:38,100 about your book was the way that you focused on all of these 441 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:41,600 people who were trying to make Innovations in the way of doing 442 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,900 things that would support seasteading that are trying to 443 00:22:43,908 --> 00:22:47,000 solve environmental problems and so it wasn't, it wasn't 444 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,300 presented as like this is a crazy utopian fantasy of 445 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:53,100 Libertarians who just want to secede from their big 446 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,000 centralized countries. It's about this is technology 447 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,000 that can help solve major. All's we can clean up the 448 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,000 oceans. We can clean up the Earth while 449 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,600 providing all these other benefits, everything that you've 450 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,700 been talking about so far. So that was really appealing to 451 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:09,900 me and I applied for the week. I got it later that day. 452 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:13,100 I got on the phone with Randy hanken and we talked about it 453 00:23:13,108 --> 00:23:14,800 for a little bit. He was like, all right I told 454 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,000 him about what we were doing with Nori. 455 00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:18,000 He said okay this is great. You should come. 456 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:21,000 So in October last year, I went out with I think there were 457 00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:23,900 seven eight or nine people can change throughout the week. 458 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:27,800 There about eight to ten of us participating in this and the 459 00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:30,300 blue frontieres team took us On tours are in Tahiti. 460 00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:33,100 We did several different cultural Explorations with 461 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:36,400 locals learning a lot about Polynesian culture which was 462 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,000 super fascinating. And we went to Maria and to 463 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,700 Anatole TT Aurora and I got to see different areas. 464 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,400 We didn't go too much further away just because the French 465 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,800 Polynesian Islands are like so so spread apart. 466 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,300 Is it something like the Polynesia occupies the same area 467 00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:57,300 of land that like the landmass of Europe does its enormous 468 00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:58,900 about the same size as Western Europe? 469 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,100 Yeah, it's huge. So, we only went to the the 470 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:04,100 local Islands, something that you pointed out to me. 471 00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:05,900 Joe. When we were there that I had 472 00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:09,400 not occurred to me before. Was that Polynesians were? 473 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,000 We're always explorers and Tahiti was really like the 474 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,100 center of their exploration, how they moved around to the 475 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:18,200 different islands of Polynesia. The last island group, that last 476 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,700 archipelago that they got, to was the islands of Hawaii and 477 00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:26,500 the idea of exploring and going, not knowing what they're going 478 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:28,900 to find and going out there and looking for. 479 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,200 Some new land where there is some opportunity for them. 480 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:34,200 It seasteading makes perfect sense. 481 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,600 It just extends, this is just like the next phase of 482 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,100 exploration in trying to find the new opportunity. 483 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:43,400 And so now we're making new islands and that really like 484 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,200 stuck with me and I found a super interesting on a more 485 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,100 personal like selfish level and how Nori can benefit from this, 486 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:55,000 the idea of harvesting kelp and growing kelp and then just 487 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,300 basically dumping it over the side of the ocean, letting that 488 00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:00,400 sink to the bottom as a carbon Sink is that would sort of 489 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,000 collectively fall under the name of blue carbon. 490 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,300 There's a lot of research being done to this and we could see 491 00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:08,700 that as a methodology that we would support to do and that 492 00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:12,700 could be a beneficial thing for inhabitants to see says to do 493 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,500 that. Like we could provide this sort 494 00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:18,000 of financial mechanism for them to grow kelp, you know, take 495 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,200 some of it for food and nutrition and take some of it 496 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,600 and just throw it over the side of the island and let it sink. 497 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,400 And you doing multiple things at once. 498 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,900 That was kind of the Start of the trip and how interesting it 499 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,200 was. So this is like a dream come 500 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,700 true for me because I you know, when I was discovering this 501 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:38,400 you're putting in the book with a sense of why don't people know 502 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,000 about this. I have to write about this so 503 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,400 the actual entrepreneurs can go out there and do it. 504 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:46,700 But yes that that vision of how aquaculture whether it's seaweed 505 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,900 or its fish that you could actually, you know, chop it up 506 00:25:50,900 --> 00:25:53,800 and drop it to the ocean floor. If you're looking to remove 507 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,900 carbon from the ocean and the atmosphere you can get carbon 508 00:25:56,900 --> 00:26:00,600 credits for this or whatever. But It would essentially be out 509 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,900 of the biosphere for 100 million years. 510 00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,700 I mean, it would drop down below where photosynthesis can reach 511 00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:09,300 and this would be a way of you know, restorative fuel. 512 00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:12,300 Restorative eating a whole restore of environmentally 513 00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:14,400 restorative industry. My other favorite thing about 514 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,000 growing kelp is that if you do it in coastal areas, where large 515 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,700 amounts of Agriculture have taken place growing, the kelp 516 00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:24,500 can help clean up the excess phosphorus and nitrogen runoff 517 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:26,500 that's come into this coastal areas. 518 00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:28,900 That's choking the life out of the coasts. 519 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:33,300 It's you've got fertilizer built into the water for free to grow 520 00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:36,700 this color and it's cleaning up this thing that these chemicals 521 00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:38,500 that are sort of toxic. Yes. 522 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,600 And this is the actual vision of our actual Engineers who will be 523 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,300 building the floating islands in French Polynesia. 524 00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:49,100 And or in countries around the world which is to absorb the 525 00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:53,900 nutrient runoff that you know, comes off of Agriculture and 526 00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:56,900 absorbing it with seaweed and different kinds of algae and 527 00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:58,800 seaweed that would take out the heavy metals. 528 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,300 And there's a, there's a whole Discovery process around that 529 00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:05,400 and you could actually restore Coastal environments. 530 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,600 And this really resonates for me, I wrote a whole book 531 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,400 designed for adults and children about the Marine Mammal Center 532 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,500 here in California. It's called call to the rescue. 533 00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:17,700 And it's all about how marine mammals are affected negatively 534 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:22,500 by nutrient pollution and how that gives rise to mass die-offs 535 00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:24,500 and the negative environmental effects. 536 00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:28,400 And so we always think like, oh, we have to prevent people from 537 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,700 doing. This we have to stop fertilizer 538 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:33,500 from running into the Seas. I don't know how we're going to 539 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:37,100 do that but if you think of that all that nutrient, what's called 540 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,000 nutrient pollution is a resource. 541 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:42,200 You know Buckminster Fuller said that pollution is simply 542 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,500 resources. We're not using and you can 543 00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:47,500 completely restore all those Coastal environments by 544 00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:51,300 absorbing all that. Nutrient, runoff and carbonic 545 00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:53,400 acid and turning it back into food and fuel. 546 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,400 If blue 21 has their Vision fulfilled, we're actually at the 547 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,700 buck minute, Sarah, Fuller Institute, yesterday and did a 548 00:28:00,708 --> 00:28:03,700 podcast over there. Well, you with Amanda? 549 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,200 Yeah. Wow. 550 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,000 Yeah. You know her. 551 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:07,400 I'm a fan. Your fan? 552 00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:08,600 Yeah. I met her once or twice. 553 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:09,500 Yeah. Hmm. 554 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,600 You Tech burners and involved in environmental Pursuits. 555 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,100 I feel like it probably isn't the biggest Community or maybe 556 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:16,300 it is. Maybe it is that everyone. 557 00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:19,100 Is that all 60,000. There's a lot. 558 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,200 Yeah, it's a sizeable community. Yeah, well very nice. 559 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,800 That's there's a lot to be excited about their from 560 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,900 multiple angles to and there's any time you can take a waste 561 00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:30,200 product and turn it into You an economic input. 562 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,400 I've never heard that Buckminster Fuller quote, but I 563 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,600 love it because I had this one of the themes that I come back 564 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,500 to you constantly here, or you can check that, take that 565 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:38,800 problem. And then all of a sudden, it 566 00:28:38,808 --> 00:28:41,600 becomes a solution and it's economically viable. 567 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,200 There's no reason for anyone to fight over. 568 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,200 It's not like you need to like no longer pollute or no longer 569 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,900 fertilize your crop. So I gotta, you can still do 570 00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:49,600 that. We just found a way where we can 571 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,100 make it all work together. Yeah, that's the best kind of 572 00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:54,900 solution, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, Fuller literally 573 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:59,700 said pollution, our resources were letting use because we're 574 00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:03,300 ignorant of their value. And, you know, blue 21 working 575 00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:07,200 through blue Frontiers has this concept of cyclical metabolism 576 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:11,300 that we could create the Societies in harmony with how 577 00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:15,400 the nature itself works, and it's just like an extension of 578 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,200 nature itself, which is what it should be. 579 00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:20,800 Are they the the ones growing the fish and then using the oil 580 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,000 from the fish to convert that into fuels, or is that a 581 00:29:23,008 --> 00:29:24,800 different group? So, in the book, they were 582 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,200 called Delta sink. Uh-huh. 583 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,800 The first Aqua Pura is you meet our Curry. 584 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,400 Should Pesce Andrew to graph who are the co-founders of Delta 585 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,400 sink. Their first language is Dutch 586 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,900 and I think after a while, they didn't realize that having sink 587 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:40,500 in the thing for your floating city supposed to be S YN C. 588 00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:42,700 So they change themselves to Blue 21. 589 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:45,900 It's sort of like a different entity and those very people 590 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:49,300 featured in the book are now the people that are going to be 591 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:51,800 building the First floating islands, almost definitely. 592 00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:54,700 Well we're throwing out Buckminster Fuller quotes. 593 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,600 I have this sticker. That Amanda gave us yesterday 594 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,700 just like to say it again. Then you never change things by 595 00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:03,900 fighting the existing reality to change something build. 596 00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:07,000 A new model that makes the existing model Obsolete. 597 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,500 And I think that really resonates, not only for what 598 00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:11,800 Nori is doing. But what for blue, Frontiers has 599 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,100 trying to do because there's an entirely new model that we can 600 00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:17,800 build here. And just want to take this back 601 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,400 a little bit to the theme of this podcast which is the 602 00:30:20,408 --> 00:30:22,200 reversing climate change podcast. 603 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,600 And I know we're also the floating architecture, 604 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,800 engineering and design series of the blue Frontiers podcast. 605 00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:31,400 And those Things together. Okay, we can definitely play a 606 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,400 role in reversing climate change and on the one hand, you're 607 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,900 helping islands that are most affected by sea level rise 608 00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:41,800 adapt. But you're also enabling that 609 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,000 adaptation to be regenerative to the health of the planet. 610 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,400 And so, when we think about climate change, being a function 611 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,400 of too much greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and excess in the 612 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,600 ocean where now oceans are acidifying and coral, reefs are 613 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,300 dying and all sorts of fish populations or just having weird 614 00:30:57,300 --> 00:31:02,100 trends that we never saw before. Because Of how the planet is out 615 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:05,900 of kilter. We now can see a movement that 616 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,100 doesn't just say. Okay, we're going to go live and 617 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:11,600 kind of save ourselves by floating at sea, but let's, 618 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,600 let's float it. See, let's live in a way that 619 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,900 restores the health of this planet and let's play a role in 620 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,200 innovating to get that health of the planet. 621 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,600 There more quickly in a way that makes the system's today kind of 622 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,000 obsolete, right? So yeah, because it's not just 623 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,700 that these Floating islands are being built to serve, the needs 624 00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:33,900 of people in places that are going to be impacted by sea 625 00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:35,800 level rise. Like the technologies that are 626 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,900 developed part of this like, are going to be beneficial to all of 627 00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:41,600 humanity and it's just a matter of figuring out the business 628 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,500 model that can enable the growth of this. 629 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:46,700 There has to be some sort of value created for some people 630 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:50,300 willing to pay for that value. But the Technologies and things 631 00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:53,300 we learn from that like that can be applied in so many more ways. 632 00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:55,400 Yes. And seasteading is not an 633 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,000 escape. It's a solution to the problems 634 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,000 that land people. Are about and that's why most 635 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,000 people are pursuing it. I'll and people landlubbers we 636 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,400 preferred Terrence yes land folk. 637 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,900 But yes that quote Buckminster Fuller, build a new model that 638 00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:13,600 makes the existing model obsolete. 639 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,200 That's one of the first things route go to graph said to me 640 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,400 co-founder of Delta sinking blue 21 when I first met him to talk 641 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,800 to him. I mean it's like they were 642 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,900 independently conceiving of seasteading over there in the 643 00:32:25,908 --> 00:32:28,800 Netherlands without calling it that in every dimension. 644 00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:32,400 And they actually built a floating Pavilion in Rotterdam, 645 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,300 and it's like, oh my God, they're like really getting 646 00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:35,800 started. So we partnered with them, to 647 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,600 take the next step, and what's next, what's coming for blue? 648 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,100 Frontiers what's coming for blue? 649 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:43,400 Frontiers is, hopefully, we'll get lots of attention for the 650 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,400 see coin. Hopefully, we will, we've 651 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,700 fulfilled all our obligations to French Polynesia and we hope 652 00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:54,200 that they approve of our legislation for the see Zone, 653 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,900 which takes the best practices of the 4000, special economic 654 00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:00,500 zones around the world. The world and instantiates them 655 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:02,700 on one. Can you explain his own? 656 00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:05,200 What a special economic zone is special economic zone. 657 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,200 I think of, as legal Islands, created within countries with 658 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,400 special exemptions from certain regulations and certain taxes in 659 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,200 order to create Prosperity. I think of the first one is 660 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,900 being Hong Kong. The next one is being Shenzhen 661 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,800 and, you know, over the last 50 or 60 years, these have been so 662 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,600 successful little miniature modest governance startups with 663 00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:31,700 Some different rules and some exemptions created within 664 00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:36,200 countries have been so successful that more than 4,000 665 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,800 have proliferated across the world in like 70% of the world's 666 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,600 countries at this point. This is the most momentous 667 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,400 political revolution in the world and nobody knows about it 668 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,400 because it's completely peaceful and it's from the inside out and 669 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,500 Tom W Bell writes about it in depth in his book. 670 00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:55,700 Your next government question, mark from nation states to 671 00:33:55,700 --> 00:34:00,800 stateless Nations and he is one of the Key legal, advisers at 672 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,100 Blue Frontiers and he sort of designed the see Zone, which is 673 00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:06,200 The Next Step Beyond the special economic zone. 674 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,400 So it's kind of like taking the best, the greatest hits of 675 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,699 regulations and rules from various countries and implying 676 00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:16,800 them on the sea zone and basically it's strongly inclined 677 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,000 towards personal and business Freedom. 678 00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:21,800 This, we're going to choose a peer group of countries among 679 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,100 the most peaceful and prosperous countries on Earth. 680 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,300 They're going to decide which rules and regulations are going 681 00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:31,100 to be on the sea zone. If they all agree that rule is 682 00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:34,000 necessary, then that will be on the sea zone. 683 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,699 If even one of those countries prospers without that rule then 684 00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:41,300 you can veto that rule. So you only have, you know, the 685 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:44,199 rules that are demonstrated to work and be necessary in the 686 00:34:44,207 --> 00:34:45,699 most prosperous Nations on Earth. 687 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,600 So again we're also on a legal Frontier, so it's not a willy 688 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,000 nilly we're going out there and just starting all over. 689 00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:56,500 We're taking best practices that already exists strongly inclined 690 00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:59,000 towards Freedom. We're only going to use the Ones 691 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,000 that have been demonstrated to work and we're going to throw 692 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,700 out the ones that aren't. And we're going to let these 693 00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:05,900 societies emerge from the bottom up developing their own rules. 694 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,900 We're going to something called the Seas own authority, that 695 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:09,800 administrates these rules. It's going to be under the 696 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,400 protection of one of the most peaceful and prosperous. 697 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,800 Although one of the most peaceful countries on Earth, 698 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,600 which is French Polynesia, which in turn will be a part of 699 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,500 France. So there's going to be these 700 00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:22,600 little concentric circles going down to the seed zone. 701 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,500 So it's all very just a perfect little minimal viable product 702 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:32,200 for the See said that will be able to scale up and become the 703 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,000 C stands on the high seas in the future. 704 00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:37,600 Now, when is that when one can or you relocate 2021? 705 00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:40,300 I expect you guys on piracy stead. 706 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,700 Well, at least come visit because we need to I really like 707 00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:45,800 Dory. I start drooling if I hear it. 708 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,900 Who knows? I mean, I think this could scale 709 00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:53,000 up if the we have the first few examples that our people can 710 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,400 point at it and look at it and it's beautiful and they gasp but 711 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,900 it's made of something that's different and its International 712 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,700 Unity. And it's a an incubation Hub, 713 00:36:01,700 --> 00:36:04,600 showing all these blue Technologies, wave Technologies 714 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,600 and people get a view of what the future of sustainable 715 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,400 floating societies is like, I think that will have such an 716 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,800 effect that other countries worried about sea level rise 717 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,900 will reach out to us. And I think getting these first 718 00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:21,500 few examples is really important and then we can scale up really 719 00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:24,100 fast and proliferate. Thousands of them all over the 720 00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:27,400 world in the decades ahead. I hope it's pretty exciting and 721 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,300 will keep watching this too. See what happens. 722 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:33,100 It's there's a lot of moving parts to it to, I working on the 723 00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:34,600 team. There's people that are working 724 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,800 on the Food Systems or people who are working on the 725 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,800 architecture. Clearly, you can't have 726 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,100 something that would not be seaworthy. 727 00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:44,100 And then also, there's a huge legal component to it too. 728 00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:46,100 And then there's a blockchain component to. 729 00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:49,700 It seems like you're innovating or trying to in multiple areas 730 00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:52,700 and keeping things real Lively. Yeah, it turns out, that 731 00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:56,100 founding a totally new civilization from the ground up 732 00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,800 or the water up is even more complicated than it sounds. 733 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:02,000 Yes, but fortunately, you could have said the same thing about, 734 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,100 you know, my iPhone like the people creating the iPhone. 735 00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:10,100 For instance, couldn't imagine the apps that were going to be 736 00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:12,700 on it and which ones would go out of business which ones would 737 00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:14,700 work? I don't know, I'm just providing 738 00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:17,400 the platform and then all the innovators can Rush In And 739 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,600 compete to serve people the best. 740 00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:24,000 And that's how I end up with all these marvelous little apps that 741 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,800 I hope in the future will be governance apps and I think the 742 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,400 the Innovations are in principle on Detectable that will emerge 743 00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:33,200 from floating societies. I think we share that in common 744 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:34,600 with you. We see ourselves the same way 745 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,100 that we build this platform where people can pay for carbon 746 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:41,500 removal and all sorts of different methodologies, people 747 00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:45,200 can show up with and test out and try to prove that these are 748 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,500 valid and are removing carbon dioxide and other people will be 749 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:50,600 willing to pay for them. And who knows what are the 750 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,800 different ways that people could do that but they aren't doing it 751 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,600 right now? Yeah, Joe McKinney the one of 752 00:37:54,607 --> 00:37:57,800 the cofounders of the startup Society Institute, he convinced 753 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:03,500 me Live on his podcast to refer to myself as he refers them to 754 00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:05,100 himself as an exit. Aryan. 755 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,700 So if you have to choose an ideology like the inside someone 756 00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:14,800 who only eats eggs, all right, we need to rethink that name the 757 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,000 principle of exit that the fundamental mechanism that works 758 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,700 is that if people don't like something, they can leave. 759 00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:24,000 And so the people providing the service have to please them. 760 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:26,900 So, as long as you can choose voluntarily among all these 761 00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:29,800 different Services than the best options, Emerge because the 762 00:38:29,808 --> 00:38:32,800 innovators will have to compete with you and we just we don't 763 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,300 have that with our societies. Now I can't just quit the United 764 00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:38,500 States and leave if I it's not that easy. 765 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,500 Now you have to pay them a ton of money to do so and they keep 766 00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:44,900 raising the exit text. If people want to renounce their 767 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:47,700 citizenship it gets more and more expensive and more onerous. 768 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,300 Yeah. There's a very good book that I 769 00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:50,500 read. It's very short, you probably 770 00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:52,800 read exit voice and loyalty, right? 771 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,100 No all my friends have read it and they've all argued about it 772 00:38:56,100 --> 00:38:57,700 with me so much. I feel like I don't need to read 773 00:38:57,700 --> 00:38:58,800 it. Yeah, yeah. 774 00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:00,800 It's a pretty quick read, but you probably just know these 775 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,000 ideas. Anyways, the general point of it 776 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,100 is that there's two main ways to change a system. 777 00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:07,800 You can either have voice in which case you get to vote or 778 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,600 complain to the manager at a restaurant. 779 00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:11,900 The alternative is exit, in which case, you never go to the 780 00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:14,200 restaurant again or you just leave the country and you 781 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,600 emigrate somewhere. And there are there are 782 00:39:15,607 --> 00:39:18,400 trade-offs, both of these approaches but the sea setting 783 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,600 in general seems like a very strong exit potential. 784 00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:24,200 Which in turn might actually encourage voice that they know 785 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,600 that you can't really believe very easily. 786 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,800 Wouldn't they be more likely to resort to voice? 787 00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:30,500 Rather than exit. Yes. 788 00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:34,400 I mean I my wife is exercising her voice at the IRS right now 789 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,200 and not getting much of a response. 790 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,600 I have registered complaints at the post office and so I have a 791 00:39:39,607 --> 00:39:42,000 voice at the post office. It's somehow it just doesn't 792 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,100 work because I can't just take my business and go somewhere 793 00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:47,400 else in the people providing the service don't care. 794 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,800 But at other services I use, if I express a complaint to just 795 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,500 about anybody at Starbucks or something. 796 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,700 They're so worried about a Yelp review, my voice has no power 797 00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:01,600 Our because I hold in my hand the threat of switching to 798 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,200 Pete's. That's all it takes. 799 00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:07,100 What I love about this is that if you're trying to change the 800 00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:11,900 world in the marketplace, the market of providing a service 801 00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:16,100 compels bad people to behave. Well and if you're trying to 802 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,700 change the world through Politics, the political process, 803 00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:23,000 compels good people to became more corrupt in order to 804 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,800 succeed. And, you know, a great example 805 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,800 of this was in between writing the C. 806 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,200 Book proposal for Publishers and waiting for it to sell at a 807 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,900 publisher. I took a job at a lamp store 808 00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:40,000 where the boss was one of the most, bitter meanest, guys I've 809 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,100 ever met. Just very, really bitter me. 810 00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:45,000 No, man, you really had problems, but when he was in the 811 00:40:45,008 --> 00:40:48,000 presence of his customers, he was so serviceable and so 812 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,900 knowledgeable. And so helpful and always 813 00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:53,400 customers just thought he was the greatest guy, but then to 814 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,600 everyone else, who was just such a mean guy, but because it was 815 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,600 in his interest to be a good guy in. 816 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,000 ER, to sell his products, he was compelled to become a better 817 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,200 person because all his customers had the power of exit, they can 818 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,300 go to the other lamp store. Do you want to say her line, 819 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:11,400 Ross? No, no, I love that. 820 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:12,600 Not all. I want to do it. 821 00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:15,100 I always I always say it. I just got faded into doing it. 822 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,400 When you have when you can appeal to people selfish desires 823 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,600 and the system turns that into pro-social ends that's like the 824 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,800 ultimate outcome of policy. So, you have this guy who 825 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,700 doesn't really care about these people but he's getting paid to. 826 00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:29,500 So he's going to behave. Himself. 827 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:32,300 Yes, we're all better off as a result and if we didn't have 828 00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:35,200 that he'd probably just be a cranky old guy, get off my lawn. 829 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,400 Yeah, young at the mailman. Yeah, that's that's who he was 830 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,100 actually. He was the mailman. 831 00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:46,000 Yeah, it was really. Yeah, I mean, if we can agree 832 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,600 that human nature exists, you don't even need to say whether 833 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,900 we're selfish or not selfish. We can just say that I care 834 00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:55,200 about myself and my family and my friends, more than I care 835 00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:00,100 about my allies. And then I care about My allies 836 00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:02,900 more than I care about my general tribe and then I care 837 00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:05,100 about my try more than I care about strangers. 838 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,100 So if you give me power, I'm always going to choose my family 839 00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:12,800 and friends and the people who got me in this position over 840 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,200 strangers because that's just my priority. 841 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,000 That's the way we're built. So what compels people to devote 842 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,200 themselves to serving strangers? It's when they're only Power. 843 00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,100 If I can pursue my self-interest, through providing 844 00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:28,300 things for them. This is the classic I associated 845 00:42:28,300 --> 00:42:30,300 with high. But it's been all over the place 846 00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:32,900 that there's a, there's a micro order, that's the family and 847 00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:35,300 your friends, you don't need market, economics, working in 848 00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:36,600 there. We can treat each other. 849 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,600 Well, just by being altruistic, but when it comes to the 850 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,600 extended order, you can't really hold people accountable through 851 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,600 social norms that you only see once like it is coming to your 852 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,200 shop, you have to use the discipline of the market of 853 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,800 profit and loss of someone actually paying you for a 854 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,900 service. That's just the one of the one 855 00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:55,900 of the better ways to organize a giant mass Society. 856 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,100 Yes, and governance itself should be like This a politician 857 00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:03,000 shouldn't just be afraid that I might vote for the only other 858 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,700 option and the politicians should be afraid that. 859 00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:10,300 I'm just going to take my taxes and go to another place or 860 00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:11,700 choose another form of governance. 861 00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:14,300 And that's, you know, credit cards are from a governance and 862 00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:17,500 they hustled to please me and we can go on and on, with this, 863 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,300 which California was better at this. 864 00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:22,000 But the big States like California and New York, 865 00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:24,400 especially they treat demand for living. 866 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,600 There is inelastic, that doesn't really change branded people are 867 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,100 leaving California on. Her places like Texas that have 868 00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:31,700 a booming economy and lower taxes. 869 00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:34,800 But I don't feel like they respond very well to attracting 870 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,400 people. It's like everything's expensive 871 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,500 here. There's high taxes, and it isn't 872 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:41,000 that well-governed. We have the fifth biggest 873 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,900 economy in the world. We have Hollywood and Silicon 874 00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:46,000 Valley yet, half the time, like the, the books aren't balanced 875 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,400 at all, and it seems like we fight over everything. 876 00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:51,200 It's kind of a kooky place to live, but they treat you a sort 877 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,100 of like you want to be here. You want the beach Right? 878 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,700 Alright, too bad, right? What you got the deal with. 879 00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:59,800 So if I have a monopoly over this This section of the one of 880 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,500 the largest economies in the world I can just grow and 881 00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:05,400 provide more services and tax people worse than worse. 882 00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:08,100 But notice how it's like, people are starting to leave 883 00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:09,600 California. It used to be the place where 884 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,000 people go and now it's a place where people are leaving largely 885 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,900 because it's poorly governed and we already have towns. 886 00:44:15,900 --> 00:44:18,800 Deading and City stating people can switch among towns and 887 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,900 cities in the more choice. You have the better service 888 00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:24,100 gets. This is great. 889 00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:26,500 I think we should probably end it, but I could see why your 890 00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:28,300 podcast with blue. Frontieres went for two and a 891 00:44:28,308 --> 00:44:30,200 half hour. Is because I think that we could 892 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,900 probably do the same. Just, yes, dripping. 893 00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,900 Rappin hanging out. Adequately, Savannah July's, 894 00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:36,500 though. I got the full, you know, 895 00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:40,300 wololo, well of won't allow from H Empires. 896 00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:42,000 When you would convert enemy units with a priest. 897 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,300 They just go. Whoa, little. 898 00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:46,200 Well, I got this evangelized. Yes. 899 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,900 Well, holy city and realized you guys, that was just an 900 00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:52,900 appetizer. I think I think my conversation 901 00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:55,300 with this evangelist, Natalie Mesa Garcia. 902 00:44:55,500 --> 00:44:58,900 I think we went for seven hours. I did it down and Then. 903 00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:01,700 So she just took the first two and a half hours and made that a 904 00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:04,000 podcast. But we thought about you make a 905 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,400 whole audio book out of that. Yeah, we're interested in the 906 00:45:06,408 --> 00:45:08,500 same things so we just kept going deeper and deeper, do all 907 00:45:08,508 --> 00:45:10,800 this stuff and sort of. And you know, it's just all 908 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,800 sorts of interesting ideas about spontaneous order and systems 909 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,300 developing from parts that don't communicate with each other. 910 00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:17,300 And so on, it's really interesting. 911 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,700 Yeah, there are certain people where I find out what they're 912 00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:23,500 interested in and then I say they should be cease titters and 913 00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:25,700 then they become cease dinners. One of them was Natalie. 914 00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:29,100 Another one was Tom Bell. You can just tell by How they 915 00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:31,700 talk about things that they will be interested in seasteading? 916 00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:34,200 So yeah. Well thanks for being here, Joe. 917 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,300 Thanks for having us in your home. 918 00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:37,400 Yes. Thanks for being here in my 919 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,900 home. How long can we stay? 920 00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:44,500 Depends on what you say about my home, live on the air? 921 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,900 It's beautiful. Okay, you can stay. 922 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:47,500 Thanks Joe.