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Hey, thanks for listening. 
This is Ross Kenyon. 

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I'm the host of Reversing 
Climate Change, the podcast you 

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are listening to right at this 
very moment. 

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Before we get into the bulk of 
today's show, I'd love to tell 

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you about our sponsor, Philip 
Lee. 

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LLPI really like doing shows 
about the law. 

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I think the law is such a 
fascinating part of our shared 

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social life. 
It structures so much of it. 

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It's badly understood by most 
people. 

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And just structuring deals 
within carbon removal is hard. 

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I'm talking grown up deals here,
like when you're trying to put 

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together an enormous package, 
complicated structuring, a lot 

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of money, changing hands, the 
stakes are high. 

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You really do need a good 
lawyer. 

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I'm sorry to tell you that if 
you are a startup out there in 

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Carbon. 
Removal. 

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You're going to probably pay. 
A fair amount of money to 

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lawyers. 
There's just no way around it. 

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Your choice is basically do you 
get? 

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A bad lawyer or a good lawyer? 
One really cool thing I can say 

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on Philip Lee LLP's behalf? 
Well, one, Ryan Covington and I 

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did a very fun show about how 
basically no one except for an 

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elite few really know what 
bankability and project finance 

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even mean. 
And he lays it out very clearly.

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If you'd like to go listen to 
that show, it's awesome and it's

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LinkedIn, the show notes, and 
also we end up talking about 

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Ernest. 
Hemingway of firm. 

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Not too so it keeps with the 
tradition of reversing climate 

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change. 
One also really cool thing is 

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that they just won Environmental
Finances, VCM Law Firm of the 

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Year. 
They put it three years in a 

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row, 2023-2024 and 2025. 
It's the only award for legal 

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teams operating in the DCM, and 
they have offices in the US, 

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Europe and the UK. 
You should check out Philip Lee 

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LLP. 
Thank you from the bottom of my 

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heart for listening to this and 
thank you to our sponsors. 

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You really make this so that 
it's something that in a busy 

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life with lots of competing 
priorities. 

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I'm able to keep coming back. 
And making more, reversing 

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climate change. 
Thanks so much for what you do. 

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And now here is the show. thank 
you so much for listening to 

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Reversing Climate Change. 
I'm the host of the show, Ross 

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Kenyon. 
I'm a long time carbon removal 

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entrepreneur. 
Today I have a show unlike 

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perhaps any other that I've done
previously. 

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Most of the time when people 
think about carbon removal or 

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climate tech startups, they 
think about them in the context 

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of venture capital. 
If you're a millennial or 

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younger, you think about venture
capital, probably in the way 

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that it has funded so many of 
the software platforms and 

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products that shape our daily 
lives. 

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Maybe you've seen films like The
Social Network or Silicon 

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Valley, and you're thinking 
about young, brilliant coders 

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who moved to the Bay Area raise 
a bunch of money on a dream and 

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ship some product that 
eventually IP, OS and makes 

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everyone fabulously wealthy. 
That's an idea that many people 

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have in their head, and it turns
out that for much of carbon 

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removal, Venture is a fairly 
poor fit. 

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Carbon removal is about moving 
atoms, not bits, and that means 

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it just can't scale in the same 
kind of way software you build 

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it once you can sell it a 
million times. 

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And that just isn't true for 
pulling carbon out of the air 

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and storing it some place. 
So for a lot of carbon removal 

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businesses, Venture is just 
inappropriate and it will not 

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generate the kind of returns 
necessary to make the 

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conventional 10 year fund make 
sense for VC. 

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Of course there are venture 
capitalist involved in carbon 

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removal and climate attack, but 
the kind of deals that they're 

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hoping for are ones where they 
really are enormous runaway 

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successes. 
They might invest in companies 

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that have the ability to license
their technology around the 

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world. 
So even if they can't 

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individually scale in the same 
way that software can, maybe by 

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licensing their technology or 
their trade secrets or something

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like that, they might be able to
duplicate the shape of the up 

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and to the right exponential 
growth curve that BC salivate 

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for. 
Or they're investing money in 

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the various software platforms 
inside of carbon removal or 

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climate tech, whether that's 
helping companies account for 

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their emissions and negate them.
Some set of specialized tools 

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that help project developers 
just make their lives easier. 

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But if you're just trying to be 
a very effective project 

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developer for carbon removal, 
and maybe you don't have a great

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technology mode, maybe you're 
just someone in dusty overalls 

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making biochar and trying to 
remove carbon that way, it's a 

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lot harder to make the venture 
story work. 

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The ability to have a breakout 
moment where you go from 

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building something at a small 
scale and being able to bend the

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curve up very dramatically, 
where you scale several orders 

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of magnitude without a 
corresponding increase in your 

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capital. 
Costs. 

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Is pretty rare and that's what 
makes today's show so 

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interesting. 
Alistair Collier is the guest. 

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He is the Chief R&D Officer at A
Healthier Earth, which is a 

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fully owned subsidiary of Pure 
DC, which is a data center 

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project developer, which is 
owned by Oak Tree, which is a 

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private equity firm. 
Alistair and I go into the 

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details of exactly how this 
structure came about and how A 

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Healthier Earth became a fully 
owned subsidiary of Pure DC. 

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And it's a really fascinating 
experience because it highlights

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some of the financial innovation
and maturation that's happening 

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within carbon removal. 
Private equity is the older, 

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more conservative Big Brother of
venture capital. 

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You might say it's less low Key 
West Coast VC and it strikes me 

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as directionally more like the I
bankers of New York City. 

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I'll explain what private equity
is right now. 

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I imagine it's a term that many 
people throw around. 

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Maybe you've heard it and you 
already know. 

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But in case you don't, private 
equity is contrasted with public

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equity, which is when things 
trade on a public market like 

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NASDAQ or the New York Stock 
Exchange. 

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Retail investors are allowed to 
participate in public equities, 

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but private equity is still 
something that one needs to be 

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an accredited investor, you 
know, sufficiently wealthy 

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enough to participate by signing
an investment agreement as a 

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limited partner in one of these 
private equity funds. 

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And they're typically interested
in later stage deals, not 

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exclusively, but often. 
So one of the things I think 

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about when I think about private
equity and we talked about this 

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in the show is the idea of a 
roll up. 

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If you're in private equity, you
might notice that, oh, the 

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Cincinnati metropolitan area has
a hundred different roofers. 

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But many of these roofers are 
not especially well managed. 

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They don't have any 
standardization. 

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They don't have great 
management. 

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A lot of them are mom and pop 
shops, and the owners are 

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getting old and they want to 
retire. 

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What if we bought up many of the
roofers in Cincinnati, brought 

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them under new management, gave 
them new tools that allowed them

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to generate leads faster, to 
close deals more quickly. 

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We got better terms on their 
roofing materials because we can

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negotiate on wholesale rather 
than retail terms, things of 

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that nature. 
That's a case when private 

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equity looks a little bit more 
benevolent. 

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And there's a book I read not 
long ago that's very critical of

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private equity called Bad 
Company. 

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And it details how private 
equity will often times buy up 

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small local and Regional 
Hospital systems and try to 

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bring them under the same sort 
of business practices where 

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maybe the local hospital system 
started as a way of making sure 

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that residents in a rural or ex 
urban community have access to 

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great obstetric care. 
And that might have been guided 

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by concern for the community. 
But if private equity buys that 

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system, they might determine 
that those services are better 

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Co located within another nearby
hospital system, which is, you 

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know, 90 miles away rather than 
10. 

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And that can very much impact 
the health services available to

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a community. 
Their job is to make things more

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efficient. 
And sometimes that means, and 

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what I described with the 
roofers, and sometimes it means 

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cutting services for things that
are not strictly profitable but 

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may be good for the community 
anyways. 

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And so private equity often 
generates really strong 

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opinions. 
The Toys-R-Us purchased by 

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private equity is something that
still gins up a lot of strong 

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feelings for people. 
For example. 

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There's also covered in that 
book. 

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That being said, there are 
companies within Carbon Removal 

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who originated out of private 
equity, so private equity is 

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also involved in supporting 
talent and starting new 

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endeavors outside of the venture
system. 

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Private equity does stand up 
founding teams and put companies

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together that are very well 
capitalized. 

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In particular for businesses 
that have good fundamentals or 

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that will have good fundamentals
on a cash flow basis, the way 

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that venture works is that you 
raise money if times are good, 

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you're told to like spend that 
money as fast as possible to get

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as much traction as possible and
then raise another round. 

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And, and at some point 
profitability catches up and you

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have so much traction that 
you've either created this 

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market X NILO or you've taken 
enough market share that now you

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can just start charging for it 
and you can go for profitability

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rather than traction and scale 
and out competing everyone else.

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But PE is a lot more 
conservative in this way. 

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They're looking for 
fundamentally sound businesses, 

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which is why I chose the example
of roofing. 

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People will need roofers no 
matter what. 

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Roofing is just stable cash flow
oriented business. 

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It's not looking for exponential
growth, it's looking for solid 

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growth and better management. 
When PE comes into this, it's a 

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different kind of paradigm and 
they're able to take different 

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kinds of bets. 
I don't want to belabor this too

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much though. 
You should just listen to the 

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show that I did with Alistair. 
I'll cut to it right now. 

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Quick plug, $5 a month. 
Become a subscriber to reversing

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00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,160
climate change. 
It takes away all the ads I 

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00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,280
don't read myself. 
And it gets you access to bonus 

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00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,640
content. 
If you're not ready for that, 

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00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,280
open up your podcast app. 
Give this show five stars on 

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00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,640
Spotify or Apple Podcast or 
whatever you use. 

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00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,960
If you're using Apple Podcast, a
really quick review is very, 

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00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,960
very helpful and so appreciated 
by me. 

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And that's all. 
I'm going to stop yapping. 

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And I'm just going to get right 
to Alistair. 

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Alistair explains this so well, 
be thankful I didn't try to do 

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an Ollie G impression here, 
which I feel like is a real risk

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when someone named Alistair's on
the podcast, so I'm going to 

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skip that for now. 
Thanks for listening, I hope you

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enjoy the show. 
Here it is, Alistair. 

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Thank you for being. 
Here. 

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Yeah. 
Thanks, Ross. 

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It's great to be here. 
We got to hang out in New York. 

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I don't even know if I can say 
this actually. 

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Do they care? 
No, we did, yeah. 

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We hung out in New York Climate 
Week. 

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It was, it was a really great 
week. 

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I think you were on the prowl 
trying to find curb and 

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businesses that have been 
invested in by larger 

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institutional sort of capital 
rather than typically what we're

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funded in. 
Yeah, I, we were talking, you're

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like, oh, yeah, do do some 
biochar project development. 

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Yeah, had an Aqua exit to PE 
kind of thing. 

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And I'm like, excuse me, what? 
What was that last part? 

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We definitely need to talk more 
about that. 

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I'm not even sure that's the 
correct way to characterize it 

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precisely. 
But you had a a strange 

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experience where I don't think a
lot of people know what you did 

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is possible. 
I'm not even sure that many 

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biochar project developers know 
that they should be looking for 

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deals like this. 
And this is a time when I 

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imagine people listening are 
wondering what 2026 is gonna 

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bring and what options might be 
out there. 

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And I think your leadership on 
this and and doing this deal is 

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really interesting. 
Obviously, we're gonna talk 

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about a lot more than that, but 
that's just to set the stage a 

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little bit. 
Maybe let's start with though, 

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what is a healthier earth and 
run me through the life cycle of

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the company to date. 
Yeah, sure. 

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So if we start with where we are
today, a healthier Earth is a 

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wholly owned subsidiary of a 
company called Pure DC. 

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So a little bit of background, 
Pure DC is a data center 

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developer and operator primarily
building hyper scale data 

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centers. 
So I think between 40 and 250 

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megawatts in size in Europe and 
the Middle East and we're really

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specialized in doing that. 
We have about 500 megawatts 

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developed to date and we build 
primarily in urban environments.

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So we were brought into as a 
wholly owned subsidiary in the 

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pure about 3 1/2 four years ago 
now. 

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And for that they were our our 
major, our only customer when we

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were a fledgling startup focused
primarily on research at that 

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time that helped them do some 
decarbonization. 

242
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They had a real focus on 
sustainability as a core 

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differentiator for them being a 
challenger, let's call it, in 

244
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the data center market. 
We're able to drive some value 

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and some decarbonization work. 
And that led to us becoming part

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of Pure as a wholly owned 
public, as wholly owned, sorry, 

247
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subsidiary. 
What we do now is we have 3 core

248
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focuses. 
So within the Pure portfolio, we

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first focus on the 
decarbonization of digital 

250
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infrastructure. 
So actually how do we make data 

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centres less carbon intensive? 
Pure's been able to reduce about

252
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22%, I think of our carbon 
intensity of a MW just by 

253
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,200
building less, building smarter,
building smaller building 

254
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standard. 
We build in kind of the new 

255
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materials. 
So think of biochar cement, 

256
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,840
biochar asphalt, these kinds of 
things. 

257
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,960
We look at how those materials 
can be incorporated into our 

258
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,440
data centers to take us that 
next, that next bet. 

259
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,560
The second thing we focus on is 
we, we regenerate the urban 

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environments or data centers are
primarily built in urban 

261
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environments because that's 
where hyperscalers want them. 

262
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,760
And when I say hyperscalers, I 
mean the major tech companies. 

263
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,040
So here we're talking about 
Google, Microsoft, Amazon, 

264
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:53,280
Oracle and Spotify, you know, 
the kind of core group that's a 

265
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,960
core group of customers for us. 
And they primarily want 

266
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,080
availability zones for storage, 
which are in urban environments.

267
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,800
AI is, is more remote. 
We're primarily at the minute in

268
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urban environments. 
And so we do things like we're 

269
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,120
supporting sure, building the 
one of the world's largest 

270
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,400
living walls around our London 
data center, which will have a, 

271
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,160
a biochar substrate within it. 
Be the world's first living wall

272
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,880
with a biochar substrate, 
reduces water usage by 60% 

273
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,080
increase, completely eliminates 
grey water waste management, our

274
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,040
great waterways, sorry, and 
incorporates biodiversity gains 

275
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,200
into the urban environment, 
which is really hard to do. 

276
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,560
We do urban forests, so we did 3
urban forests last year. 

277
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,120
We've got three to do this year.
Urban allotments. 

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00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,840
We have a living wall at a 
school local to one of our data 

279
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,040
centers. 
So things that really engage 

280
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,960
with the community support Pure 
and gaining planning and 

281
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,520
permitting. 
Pure will both build and 

282
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,120
operate, so run the facility for
30 years. 

283
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,920
So we're a long term community 
tenant. 

284
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,040
And then finally we produce high
quality carbon removal credits 

285
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:55,760
and we sell them to our 
customers. 

286
00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:02,720
And so we have focused on 
biochar as a, we started looking

287
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,160
at this about 3 years ago kind 
of post coming into pure and, 

288
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,640
and really thinking about what 
oak tree might, might want or 

289
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,240
want to be able to invest in 
that's ultimately pure as 

290
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,880
investor. 
So our investor oak tree or pure

291
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,120
as investor oak tree, you know, 
very large private equity based 

292
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,040
investor wants to deploy large 
amounts of capital. 

293
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,000
They're an infrastructure 
property based investor. 

294
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,200
And so we had to think about 
what would match. 

295
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,240
And in high quality carbon 
removal is on the many things 

296
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,920
you've got Biochar, DAC, Beck's,
Hirthwark Weathering and we just

297
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,400
kind of went through like what 
would fit Hirthwark weathering. 

298
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,920
You just can't deploy enough 
money like these types of equity

299
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,080
houses don't want to look at 
anything less than 25,000,000 

300
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,120
and that's a total minimum, like
minimum, minimum, minimum is 

301
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,280
what I've learned. 
Banks is too big, banks is like 

302
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,560
a billion dollars. 
So that's too big and and the 

303
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,320
timelines are a bit too long in 
development. 

304
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:04,320
DAC, DAC just has a lot of 
commercial question marks about 

305
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,280
its long term that this type of 
investor who wants a quicker 

306
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,440
investment return doesn't, 
wouldn't be appropriate for. 

307
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,520
And so you cut left with 
biochar. 

308
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,760
I don't want to disparage 
biochar here at all. 

309
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,320
We're, we're a major biotchar 
developer. 

310
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,280
But when we went through sort of
3 1/2 years ago, it was like, 

311
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,800
well, biochar is really the only
thing. 

312
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,920
So let's go and develop biochar 
projects. 

313
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,720
And we started actually 
backwards. 

314
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,520
We started with how much can we 
deploy? 

315
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,360
What is, what is a profitable 
site need to look like and how 

316
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,840
can we get capital? 
So anyways, in there there's a 

317
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,360
little bit of a nutshell of kind
of pure what we're doing and our

318
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,680
and our background. 
It sounds like 3 1/2, four years

319
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:46,360
ago you are developing biochar 
as a project developer, you are 

320
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,000
building a biochar business. 
You have one customer, it's pure

321
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:55,040
and you end up in an acquisition
kind of discussion with them 

322
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,600
with your biggest slash only 
customer. 

323
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,200
Is that a correct 
characterization I mean? 

324
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,080
Actually, I'd say it's something
different to that. 

325
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,200
We we really didn't talk about 
biochar until post. 

326
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,000
We came into the Pure 
organization that we were really

327
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,720
focused on biofuel. 
So Pure has a global standard 

328
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,319
that they only use HBO in backup
diesel generation and also have 

329
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,960
a really big bio gas strategy 
for a gas powered data center in

330
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,160
Dublin. 
So carbon neutrality in our 

331
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,560
energy system and that that's 
actually the work we did with 

332
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,960
them. 
So we were focused on, you know,

333
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,800
can you switch to HBO, what 
would it mean? 

334
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,960
What would it mean from a carbon
intensity and these were the 

335
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,920
kinds of problems we were, we 
were working with. 

336
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,600
It was sort of post coming into 
the pure organization that we 

337
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,040
really sat down and said, OK, 
what can we do now we're here 

338
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,560
with the the benefits that we 
have. 

339
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,800
So the access to capital and 
with the access to customers. 

340
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,440
And that's where when we started
looking at the strategic 

341
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,520
alignment that really asking the
difficult questions about what 

342
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,640
does AHE do within this data 
center business that we kind of 

343
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,040
came up with the three-point 
strategy. 

344
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,600
I, I just discussed with you and
then it was OK. 

345
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,280
Well, if we're if one of our big
strategic sides is that we're 

346
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,880
going to create value for the 
pure organization, we're not 

347
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,960
going to be a cost center, we're
going to be a profit center. 

348
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,560
How do we do that? 
We've got to sell products. 

349
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,720
What products can we sell that 
naturally align to the 

350
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,320
opportunities that sit in front 
of us, right. 

351
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,120
Access to capital and the yeah, 
access to potentially 

352
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,640
hyperscalers. 
And that's where carbon credits 

353
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,320
came in and we said, OK, what 
can we do in carbon credits? 

354
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,280
And that's what led us to that 
decision tree of kind of OK, 

355
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,840
what can we do in the next sort 
of three years that would be 

356
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,480
meaningful. 
And that's how we ended up at 

357
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,600
biochar. 
So pre kind of coming into the 

358
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:45,240
pure organization, I probably 
didn't even really know biochar 

359
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:50,720
this like maybe like of 
marginally aware I would 

360
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,640
describe it. 
Interesting. 

361
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,320
And so there's a part of the 
business that is offsetting 

362
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:58,880
oriented and revenue generation,
but there's also an insetting 

363
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,800
play here. 
You're a vertically integrated 

364
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,160
project developer for the 
development of data centers, 

365
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,800
urban data centers, but also 
you're selling credits to 

366
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,040
external partners as well. 
Is that part of the problem? 

367
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:09,760
Correct? 
Yes. 

368
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,200
Yeah, I mean, we've really 
struggled with the insetting. 

369
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,000
I'm not going to lie, in setting
is really hard. 

370
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,120
But even with some of the way 
some of the hyperscalers draw 

371
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:21,360
their boundaries around energy 
generation and energy use in 

372
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:25,080
data centers. 
Even if we had a fully BEX 

373
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,920
energy center right next to a 
data center that a customer was 

374
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,240
taking from us and we had both 
assets, they wouldn't be able to

375
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:33,640
calculate. 
That's in setting because of the

376
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,760
way they draw their boundaries. 
So in setting is really 

377
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,680
difficult. 
Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I went

378
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,520
through, I've, I've tried, I've 
pitched a few things. 

379
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,240
We've got a couple of things in 
the irons of the fire there and 

380
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,840
it's just like you hit these 
kind of weird additionality or 

381
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,280
weird carbon boundary challenges
that until you really get into 

382
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,040
it, you'd never thought of. 
So, so in settings hard, you 

383
00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:00,280
know, we, we have tried it where
like with our biochar Asheville,

384
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,120
for example, we're looking at 
doing now scaled trials in our 

385
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:06,320
data center environment. 
So in operational environments, 

386
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,920
so not like a little meter 
square to the edge of a parking 

387
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,400
lot, like an entire data center 
development or a large portion 

388
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,840
of it with a biochar base. 
Asphalt which we've proven has 

389
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,200
some commercial value, for 
example living wool, I talked 

390
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,320
about where we'll have a biochar
substrate into it. 

391
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,200
I mean our office, a new office 
in London has all of our indoor 

392
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,160
plants have a biochar substrate 
in them. 

393
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,440
But it's, it's small beer, 
right. 

394
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,840
We've what we've found is that 
actually it's easier to keep 

395
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,520
these things apart and create 
semi stand alone businesses, 

396
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,960
let's call it that generate 
external revenue even though it 

397
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:43,560
may be coming from the same 
customer group. 

398
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:46,840
Fascinating. 
I think people are watching 

399
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,960
global policy right now and are 
concerned and wondering about 

400
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,320
the demand dynamics within 
carbon removal and are hoping 

401
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,960
that in setting in certain 
supply chains, whether the built

402
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,600
environment or Agri business 
will be robust enough to keep 

403
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,000
them alive if offsetting isn't 
nearly as strong as maybe they 

404
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,720
they hope. 
But it sounds like you're saying

405
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,160
in setting is not nearly the 
magical Deus Ex machina for 

406
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,600
carbon removal project 
developers. 

407
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,120
Yeah. 
I mean, I think each industry is

408
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:12,760
different. 
I think certainly in digital 

409
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,040
infrastructure, it's much more 
challenging because of the 

410
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,160
standards that we have to we 
have to adhere to, to build our 

411
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,320
actual digital infrastructure. 
There's not much flexibility. 

412
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:28,440
You don't necessarily see 
benefit in your data center 

413
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,760
buyer, but where your data 
center is selling to them for 

414
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,400
being a carbon neutral or a less
carbon intense data center, even

415
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,080
though on the other side they 
may be offsetting a huge amount 

416
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:42,400
of their operations or buying 
offsets. 

417
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,720
So even internally within 
organizations that I would say 

418
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,800
are really leading in this 
space, they haven't yet been 

419
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,280
able to fully reconcile that 
side of how the supply chain 

420
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,160
talks with the purchasing arm. 
So I think you know any 

421
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,880
organized, any commercial 
organization is going to be 

422
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,040
customer less. 
And when customers are sort of 

423
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,320
signaling different things, it 
sometimes it makes it 

424
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,960
challenging. 
Like my biggest problem is that 

425
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,040
there isn't a major scoring 
benefit for a selling a data 

426
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,520
center that has a lower carbon 
intensity, even to a customer 

427
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,240
who may be very active in 
purchasing offsets. 

428
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,720
I imagine that dynamic is 
probably not going to be 

429
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,640
improving given the political 
climate around energy mix. 

430
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,760
Yeah, I mean probably not 
unfortunately. 

431
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,520
And I think it's why, you know, 
when we talk about politics, at 

432
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,280
least what I have found with the
investors I'm talking to you and

433
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,400
specifically the investor types 
I'm talking to are large 

434
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,600
institutional infrastructure or 
property based midcap to large 

435
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,880
cap private equity funds, right.
And what I found with that group

436
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,160
is that actually political, 
political contracts or contracts

437
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,600
that are based on political will
or particular not political 

438
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,680
will, but even legislation are 
not seen as credible as high 

439
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,320
quality commercial contracts in 
G20 countries where you have 

440
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,760
rule of law with large 
organizations that have a strong

441
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,920
balance sheet. 
And the simple reason is you 

442
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,280
call it sewer government. 
Well, you can. 

443
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,600
I mean, the US has found this. 
You can't be sued, but it's a 

444
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,640
lot more difficult and costly to
sewer government than it is to 

445
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,800
sue an organization for breaking
a contract. 

446
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,200
And so if, for example, is 
what's happening in the US with 

447
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,960
offshore wind where, you know, 
is it worsted just one 

448
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,000
injunction actually against the 
US government, Very costly, very

449
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,960
difficult, got to have really 
high stakes. 

450
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,080
Our contract values are not big 
enough for that kind of thing. 

451
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:43,080
And so, you know, we would much 
rather have a 10 to 15 year off 

452
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,080
take with a high quality third 
party counterparty with a AAA 

453
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,160
rated balance sheet who in in, 
in the US or in Canada or in the

454
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,880
UK or Western Europe where you 
could sue them and you've got a 

455
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,160
good chance of winning because 
your contract is ironclad. 

456
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,240
And so actually the more your 
project, in my experience with 

457
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,680
these types of investors or your
revenue stream specifically rely

458
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:11,920
upon any kind of legislative 
component actually that reduces 

459
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,680
the investability at this scale.
Now at the medium to lower 

460
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,360
scale, like I think in the VC 
world or the less sophisticated,

461
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,080
maybe let's use the word 
investor, they're kind of like, 

462
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,600
oh, you have to have at least a 
portion of your revenue in, you 

463
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,160
know, Chrysia type or in these 
kinds of things. 

464
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,920
My investors are looking at 15 
year yield returns and they see 

465
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,000
a lot of risk in that because 
what's going to happen in five 

466
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,240
years? 
What's going to happen in 10 

467
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,680
years? 
We literally have no idea. 

468
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,760
Nobody has an idea. 
And so if that isn't actually 

469
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,400
part of your business case, but 
it's directly contractual, that 

470
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:45,960
actually increases your invest 
ability. 

471
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,720
Wow. 
Many people in carbon removal 

472
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,760
have a typical startup founder 
heritage where if they do have 

473
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,520
access to investors, so far, 
it's likely Angel investors or 

474
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,040
venture capitalists. 
But they're not interacting much

475
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:05,080
with PE private equity. 
They're not interacting with the

476
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,160
Ontario Teachers Pension 
Organization like that. 

477
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,600
Institutional investors are like
something that like you, you 

478
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,840
read about on TV with Warren 
Buffett and somewhere else and 

479
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,200
like whatever. 
What? 

480
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,560
What what's it like we're doing 
business with those people 

481
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,320
versus the VCs and angels that 
maybe people are more used to? 

482
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,080
Yeah. 
So I mean, I've got probably, 

483
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,200
there's probably 2 tangents, 
tangents to this. 

484
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,720
One is my opinion of what is the
right type of capital for our 

485
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,840
type of projects. 
And then the second would be to,

486
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,480
to answer your question 
directly, what is it? 

487
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,120
What is it actually like to work
with them? 

488
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,440
So maybe do my opinion 1st and 
then. 

489
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,360
Yeah, go ahead. 
So I fundamentally think that 

490
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,120
that VC and even Angel investors
are high net worth individuals 

491
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,640
are the wrong kind of capital 
for our projects. 

492
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:50,160
The reason is, is that VC models
are generally based upon quick 

493
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,760
cash turn around, so high apex, 
low CapEx. 

494
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,120
So lots of, you know, bunch of 
people sitting in a cafe writing

495
00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:00,040
on a, on a, on a, on a computer 
to get code out to get the scale

496
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320
right. 
And in climate, there is some of

497
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,080
that registries, certifiers, 
rating agencies, they fit that 

498
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,120
model. 
But the core people who are 

499
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,760
actually delivering the credits,
we don't right. 

500
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,840
We need to spend millions of 
pounds even for a small machine 

501
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,040
if we think biochar here to get 
to any kind of, it's not even 

502
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,480
scale, but just production to 
get to to revenue. 

503
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,280
And it's not like I can 
subscribe someone up who's going

504
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,200
to then pay me £50 a month for 
however many as long as I get 

505
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,880
20,000 of them. 
My revenue model works like it 

506
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,560
doesn't work that way. 
And so the VC return profile, 

507
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,040
generally they have like a cost 
of capital of between 30% plus. 

508
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,520
And it's really hard in a bio 
term, like my projects do not 

509
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,640
make a 30% return, right? 
So if you've got to make a 30% 

510
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,120
return hurdle just to get your 
investor back to even in their 

511
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:52,080
world plus then make above that,
that kind of have any exit 

512
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,560
trajectory, like it's not going 
to happen. 

513
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,200
The second issue with high net 
worth individuals, they're 

514
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,200
really important. 
They're a great part of it, but 

515
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,000
they take too many risks. 
They accept too many risks. 

516
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:07,560
What that means is like maybe 
they'll build the first pilot or

517
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,520
the first sort of subscale, but 
then the money. 

518
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,840
So let's say you spend 
£5,000,000 building a biochar 

519
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,760
facility and you take loads of 
risk. 

520
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:20,440
You get a, you know, a less, 
less well deployed machine or 

521
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,040
you just feedstock is not that 
sure of or, or whatever. 

522
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,480
But you, you get there, you 
build it, you kind of muddle 

523
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,640
through, you make some biochar, 
you make some credits, you 

524
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,400
certified like, you know, you're
winning. 

525
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,960
And then you go for like, OK, 
now I'm going to go buy like 

526
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,160
four more of these machines. 
I know all the problems, I can 

527
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,840
fix them, but now I need like 
15,000,000, 15,000,000. 

528
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,360
Still too small, right, for the 
type of investor we're about to 

529
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:45,560
talk about. 
And also there's so many risk 

530
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,840
holes in your business model 
that those institutional 

531
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,200
investors are going to not look 
at it. 

532
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,080
They're going to look at it and 
go, and I would never accept 

533
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,200
that risk. 
Why did you enter that contract?

534
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,840
That is not the way I would do 
it. 

535
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,800
And they won't invest. 
The other problem is generally 

536
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,240
like this 5 million kind of mark
where a lot of people are 

537
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,640
sitting because this is the only
money, right? 

538
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,440
All you're proving is you can 
make biochar and you can kind of

539
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,160
sell it. 
And yes, you can make customers 

540
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,440
for your, for your credits. 
But what you're not proving is 

541
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,400
that your business actually 
makes money. 

542
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,760
And so they're going to want to 
see your track record and show 

543
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,280
them your track record. 
Thinking like, I'm a good 

544
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,600
businessman, I've done this, you
know, it's bootstrapped, It's 

545
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,200
all this kind of stuff. 
And they're just going to like, 

546
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,720
you're just losing money. 
You're literally your unlivered 

547
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,280
yield is like -5%. 
I'm not going to do that even if

548
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,400
you go to the Oh yeah. 
But if you scale it, if you, if 

549
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,200
you as soon as you get into that
world of if you, if you, if you,

550
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,520
no, they're not interested. 
And that segues nicely into what

551
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,760
your actual question is, which 
is what is it like to work with 

552
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,280
these people? 
And I mean that the nicest way, 

553
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,600
Like what is your like to work 
with these people? 

554
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,120
So I describe myself as oak tree
trained and I say this to their 

555
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,000
face so I don't feel bad about 
sharing this. 

556
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,440
And what that means is, and Oak 
Tree have been really supportive

557
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,960
in helping me understand what 
they need to be able to make an 

558
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,880
investment decision. 
And I feel extraordinarily 

559
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,760
fortunate because most people 
pitch, you know, if you do get 

560
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,280
the chance to pitch APE, like 
you make pitch once, you get 

561
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,720
told no and that's it. 
So then you go to the next one 

562
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,480
and you try them and they say no
and you're like, that didn't 

563
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:17,600
work. 
And you go to the next one, they

564
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,360
say no and like you're not 
really getting anything When I 

565
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,400
say that Oak tree have been 
supportive and they've said no a

566
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,480
lot more than they've said yes. 
But what they have done is 

567
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,600
they'll explain to me like why? 
Why are we saying no to you 

568
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,920
right now? 
And so the first time to get the

569
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,080
development funding for Royal 
Wood and Bassett, which is our 

570
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,880
first project in the UK, it's 
about a £24 million sterling 

571
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,800
total investment in a biochar 
facility, which we announced 

572
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,160
just the end of last year. 
For the first nine months, they 

573
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,680
said no, I'm, I think I went to 
them 5 or 6 times with 

574
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,320
investment decks, each one 
probably 20 to 30 slides. 

575
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,840
And each time they said no. 
So the first time I went, I went

576
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,360
with like what I always see, 
right? 

577
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,480
It's three years ago now, like 
what everyone always has, right,

578
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,400
which is loads of preamble on 
the potential upside, right? 

579
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,560
Like a broad market theme, 
right? 

580
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,880
So a, a investment thesis braced
upon a broad market theme and 

581
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,760
directional travel that they can
see referencing things like, 

582
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,040
hey, look like the Biosure 
market is exploding. 

583
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,800
It's 84% of global delivery of 
high quality carbon. 

584
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,960
It's growing at this rate. 
And if it continues to grow, 

585
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,040
this is where we're going. 
The EBC says that it's going to 

586
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,360
grow this fast. 
And by the way, look, Microsoft 

587
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,720
and Bain and BCG and all these 
people are taking all these 

588
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:30,800
credits. 
So there's going to be huge 

589
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,160
credit demand. 
That biotech has all these 

590
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,880
amazing things it does that, you
know, solves flood risk, it, you

591
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,200
know, fixes agriculture. 
It's the future fertilizer, 

592
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,840
whatever, right? 
All the upside, all the 

593
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,560
amazingness. 
And by the way, we can make five

594
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,320
of these facilities and it's 
going to cost as much of what 

595
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,880
we'll make up a gazillion 
dollars, right? 

596
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,960
And like, I made that deck, 
right, which is what everyone 

597
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,360
does. 
And like, my, my financial model

598
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,240
was slide 35 or whatever is 
right. 

599
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,520
And, and like, I remember 
sitting there and the guy from, 

600
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,320
from, from, from oak tree was 
kind of like, you know, on the 

601
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:00,680
meeting with me. 
And he was kind of like sitting 

602
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,440
there, like, you know, I was 
giving my pitch. 

603
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,720
OK, I'll so I read the deck. 
I think it's really good. 

604
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,880
But like, how does this thing 
make money? 

605
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,800
And I was like, OK, well, I 
mean, we have like, we have to 

606
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,840
sell biochar and then we just 
sell these carbon credits and 

607
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,120
then we sell this energy here. 
And he's like, yeah, OK, great. 

608
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,560
It's a no for now. 
But, you know, can we come back 

609
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,840
and like, just say to me how 
this thing makes money? 

610
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,120
So like learning slide #2 
revenue model, how does this 

611
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,600
thing make money, right. 
Slide #1 executive summary. 

612
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,680
This is what we're trying to do.
By the way, Slide number one 

613
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,000
says I'm requesting 2.4 million 
to do whatever, right? 

614
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,360
Like this is the development, 
this is the work we've done. 

615
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,080
This is what we do. 
Slide number 2 is revenue model.

616
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,600
This is how it makes money. 
Great. 

617
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,800
Same thing went up, you know 
what I'm saying? 

618
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:47,560
Yeah, I can see how it makes 
money. 

619
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,640
What are the key unit economics 
that drive the profitability of 

620
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,920
the business model and what are 
their sensitivity to the 

621
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,600
underlying risk in the market? 
And I was like, I'll get back to

622
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,400
you on that Google. 
What is, you know, unit 

623
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,080
economics? 
Not quite that. 

624
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,440
That no, you're kidding, you 
didn't have to you go that, did 

625
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:04,200
you really? 
But like. 

626
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,800
Yes. 
But so then so slide number 2 is

627
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,120
like what are the five key unit 
economics that drive this 

628
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,600
business case and the 
profitability and then where are

629
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,560
we on that? 
So I made these like, so we 

630
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,640
always use the slide. 
It's like a sound sounds, you 

631
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,040
know, like the sound dials. 
You have a like a switch on a 

632
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,080
sound board. 
They're literally that. 

633
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,720
And what we do is we put in 
triangles that are like external

634
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,800
reference points. 
And then we have a circle, which

635
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,400
is our target. 
And then we have a square, which

636
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,760
is where we are today. 
And the square is either Gray 

637
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,120
for it's an estimate, blue for 
it's kind of semi quantified or 

638
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,560
it's green. 
It's contracted. 

639
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,520
And what they want to see is 
they want to see it contracted 

640
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,640
or proven with tests. 
So carbon credit multiplier, 

641
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:49,240
carbon credit price, feedstock 
price, biochar price, biochar 

642
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,280
offtake. 
I think those were the five. 

643
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,640
And so yeah, literally that then
you'd economics. 

644
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,760
So you know, what is it like 
working with these people? 

645
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,920
They're interested in how does 
it make money? 

646
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,240
They're interested in how it 
generates an unlevered yield. 

647
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,000
So infrastructure event, we'll 
talk about that and talk about 

648
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,720
that in a bit. 
And they're interested in the 

649
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,000
economics. 
So in my decks now, like I'm 

650
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,480
literally doing an approval deck
right now with widow trade and 

651
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,520
you know, like biochar is 
mentioned probably on slide 12 

652
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,040
in the appendix. 
They basically say like, yeah, I

653
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,560
get the upside. 
Like like cool, yeah, yeah. 

654
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,000
And I get it. 
I get it's really good for the 

655
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,040
environment. 
Great. 

656
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,960
But I could only do this 
investment if it financially 

657
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,480
works. 
So like all of that stuff only 

658
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,160
sell me after I've already 
decided this financially works. 

659
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,840
And what I need to know if it 
financially works is what's its 

660
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,160
unlevered yield. 
So yield investors, 

661
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,400
infrastructure investors are 
looking at unlevered yield. 

662
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,360
Unlevered yield is your 
stabilized EBITDA when you're at

663
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,880
full operations over the total 
CapEx it costs you to build the 

664
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,560
thing. 
This is literally with no debt. 

665
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,840
So take that out literally that 
number and that gives them a 

666
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,440
really good way to peg this 
infrastructure investment and 

667
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,080
the risk they're taking versus 
others. 

668
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,680
So give you an idea like a 
bridge, build a bridge makes 

669
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:11,199
like a 4 to 8% unlevered yield, 
super like stable, right? 

670
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:13,560
When you're building a bridge, 
it's going to be there for 60 

671
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,480
years and the government's going
to pay you every year, whatever,

672
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,040
100 million for the bridge to be
there. 

673
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,120
Right. 
It's probably like through a 

674
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,159
bond or something like that. 
Yeah, exactly. 

675
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,480
Right. 
So data centers are like 8 to 

676
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,520
10% because 15 year off take 
with a high quality third party 

677
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,199
hyperscaler with a great balance
sheet with a suitable contract. 

678
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,840
Yeah, like pretty low risk. 
One revenue stream locked in for

679
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,400
15 years. 
Low risk commercial real estate,

680
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,960
12 to 14%, maybe as low as 10. 
If you've got like a long term 

681
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,400
tenant, like a Merrill Lynch 
staking, you know, half your 

682
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,080
building before you build it, 
yeah, you could probably get 

683
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:58,480
lower frontier climate change or
you know, climate 17%. 

684
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,360
That's your a levered yield 
right now. 

685
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,600
A 17% of the levered yield takes
for account the fact you've got 

686
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,840
multiple revenue streams, you've
got risk because you probably 

687
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,640
only ever going to be able to 
get 40% of your revenue on a 

688
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,640
long term off take. 
You're going to have feedstock 

689
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,560
risk. 
You're going to have long term, 

690
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,840
you know, spares for your 
machinery. 

691
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,600
You're buying a machine now is 
the manufacturer of your machine

692
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,280
going to be around in 15 years 
to supply you with the spares 

693
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,640
you need to keep your machine 
running? 

694
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,040
Nobody in the biochar market, 
barring Baby Pyrag could say 

695
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,360
that they have any, any chance 
of being able to say that that 

696
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,320
will be true. 
And so like, these are the risks

697
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,120
they're taking. 
That's why it's 17%. 

698
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,320
But it, that's an attractive 
number because like, you know, 

699
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,760
it's double what I make building
the, the skyscraper. 

700
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,360
So now I'm interested. 
Like now I kind of want to make 

701
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,440
the money, but now like, and I 
try to deploy like 50 million. 

702
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,920
So like, because I'm not going 
to get a big so we can talk 

703
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,360
about the banks in the second of
debt, but they're like, hey, 

704
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,120
Kylie, like needs to be around 
50, like preferably 100 million.

705
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,080
Like should we get there? 
I mean, I've talked more, I've 

706
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,680
talked to more people who are 
like, I want to deploy 50 

707
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,680
million in the biochar, but I 
just don't know where to do it 

708
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,760
or who with. 
Like the problem is not that the

709
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,880
money's not there. 
It's that generally speaking, I 

710
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:17,280
think we're thinking too small 
and we're not pushing, we're not

711
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,560
speaking their language. 
We're, we're, we're approaching 

712
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,120
it like we're trying to save the
world or we're pushing from a 

713
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,720
very use case perspective rather
than like the core fundamental 

714
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:33,560
financials. 
Wow. 

715
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,960
And when you're having these 
conversations as a fully owned 

716
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,600
subsidiary, are you selling 
project equity? 

717
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,640
Is that how this deal works? 
Yeah. 

718
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,880
So the way that and this, this 
now links to to the to the debt,

719
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,080
right. 
So, so any equity investor is 

720
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,360
looking to deploy equity and 
then to back that equity out 

721
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,400
with debt. 
All right. 

722
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,960
Now, the way that project 
finance works, which is the 

723
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:59,720
typical type of finance that a 
normal non frontier climates 

724
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,920
business would get like a, like 
a, a bridge or a, or a building.

725
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,960
Like I was saying, is that the 
equity will build the building. 

726
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,640
So the equity will put up the 
money to get the thing to COD. 

727
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,680
So from FID to COD it's 100% 
usually, not always, but we can 

728
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,800
say in infrastructure is often 
often equity. 

729
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,120
And where I'm simplifying here, 
obviously a major deals with 

730
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,080
multiple phases, you're 
refinancing as you go. 

731
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,560
But let's just keep it simple, 
right? 

732
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,600
So equity is deploying your 
money. 

733
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,560
So let's say like like take my 
project 24,000,000, that's an 

734
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,520
equity deployment. 
Once you get to commercial offer

735
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,240
to COD. 
Now the banks will come in and 

736
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:40,160
refinance the equity. 
So what they'll do is they'll 

737
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,120
say, OK, you, your site is now 
running. 

738
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,440
We believe in the contracts you 
signed for the revenue that our 

739
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,760
interest payments and our 
repayments will be made. 

740
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,480
What we'll do equity is we'll 
give you 70% of the equity you 

741
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,040
put in. 
So if we use simple numbers, 

742
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,600
let's say my site cost 10 
million, we're going to give you

743
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,080
7,000,000 back and you can go 
build the second site with your 

744
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,760
7 million, right? 
And we'll finance 7 million of 

745
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,840
this. 
And they're looking for a five 

746
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,320
to seven-year payback period on 
the debt. 

747
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,360
And the attractiveness of the 
project finance is that if you 

748
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:19,280
get really, really boring, like 
vanilla plain project finance, 

749
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,160
which I don't think anyone's 
gotten in our, in our sector 

750
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,200
where we're trying really hard, 
but it's still hard with, with 

751
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,000
our backing. 
Like your interest rates are 

752
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,160
much lower. 
Like you're talking maybe you 

753
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,760
can get into single digits, like
high single digits, maybe you've

754
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,240
heard of even kind of like mid 
single digits. 

755
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,480
But that's where project finance
gets you. 

756
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,000
And that is super attractive 
because if you're making a 15% 

757
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,560
unlevered yields and your 
investor wants a 12% return and 

758
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,400
now you've come in with a 5% 
debt, everyone's happy, right? 

759
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,080
And that, that's the sweet part.
That's why like VC, it just 

760
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,160
loose never works. 
I cannot generate 30% return 

761
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,040
even with my biggest projects. 
So it's just it's never going to

762
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,240
work. 
And they're never going to give 

763
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:06,600
me 24,000,000 when I've got 0 
revenue, but I've got contracts 

764
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,000
for revenue, but I don't have 
the revenue coming in. 

765
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,200
It's not how their model works. 
You know, when I think about 

766
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,760
private equity, I think that 
often times they're acquiring 

767
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,360
businesses that have solid 
fundamentals, that are maybe in 

768
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,080
a bad cash flow position, but 
with better management that they

769
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,400
can maybe install, they can make
the company better. 

770
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,280
Alternatively, they buy 
companies and sell them for 

771
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,480
parts, which also is a reason 
why people don't always love 

772
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,920
private equity. 
I imagine the truth is that both

773
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,320
of those things happen. 
They're both success stories and

774
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,760
horror stories. 
Yeah, go ahead. 

775
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,960
Yeah, yeah, they're, they're 
standard models, right. 

776
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,280
So you've got the the roll up, 
which is I buy a whole bunch of 

777
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,760
businesses that are the same. 
I crash them together, create 

778
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,320
synergies. 
I'm cutting out a whole bunch of

779
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,640
management and I make extra 
return and I sell the business 

780
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,120
on second one would be, yeah, I 
buy a failing business, an asset

781
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,760
strip and, and, and, and do it 
that way. 

782
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:58,280
But I think if you look for 
growth PE, which is, you know, 

783
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,720
or Special Situations, I think 
they're called PE. 

784
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,040
They're really looking for 
growth businesses where they can

785
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,480
deploy capital in businesses 
that have a repeatable model. 

786
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,200
The key is it's got to be 
repeatable. 

787
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,120
So this isn't like, oh, I'm 
doing a a bioschar business in 

788
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,360
Kenya focused on some type of 
switch grass. 

789
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,360
And then my second project is 
I'm in Australia using a a waste

790
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,040
of of non indigenous weed. 
And then my third project is in 

791
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:31,600
South America on coffee beans. 
These are not repeatable 

792
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,200
projects. 
Piritek would not be investing 

793
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,320
in this kind of model. 
Piritek, we would want. 

794
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,920
I have a very clear model that I
use a very specific feedstock 

795
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,560
from a certain type of customer.
I use that to produce a very 

796
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,240
specific type of biochar that 
goes into this exact type of 

797
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:48,840
industry. 
I have demand for that biochar 

798
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,680
up to 60,000 tons and each site 
produces 10,000 tons of biochar.

799
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,520
And so I need to produce 6 
sites. 

800
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,560
And so I'll build the 1st and 
when I'm home with you building 

801
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:58,720
the 1st, I'll start building the
2nd. 

802
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,720
And by the time I've finished 
building the finished the 1st, 

803
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:03,680
it's operational, the second is 
halfway and the third is 

804
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,840
starting. 
Wow, that's what they want to 

805
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,840
invest in. 
I just spoke with a product 

806
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,120
developer the other day and they
were telling me about how 

807
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,520
important it was for them to 
distribute their risk 

808
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,000
geographically and across 
project type. 

809
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,320
And I had a similar reaction 
where I'm like, wouldn't you 

810
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,520
just get better at doing the 
same thing over and over in 

811
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,480
different places? 
Maybe that would be a safer 

812
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,160
thing on net, assuming you chose
the right political geography to

813
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,040
make sure that this did happen 
in that way. 

814
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,360
Yeah. 
I mean, I think that that's so 

815
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,840
it depends, right? 
Like if you're a developer and 

816
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,520
you are developing in less 
developed nations in the global 

817
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:40,360
S maybe then or or nations that 
don't have a strength of rule of

818
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,560
law, which is really key for 
these kinds of investors, then 

819
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,320
yes, that might be a strategy 
that works for G20. 

820
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,160
Let's call it countries. 
It's it's repeatable. 

821
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,480
These investors want a cookie 
cutter approach that they know 

822
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,200
works with the management team 
they believe can deliver and 

823
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,400
they want to be in the check 
sizes of 25 to $50 million per 

824
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,800
site. 
And that is, that's what they 

825
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,360
want. 
If you could do that, they'll be

826
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,160
very interested. 
This is totally a tangent, but 

827
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,680
is this why basically every city
looks exactly the same? 

828
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,880
They have the same condos, they 
have the same strip malls, 

829
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,160
Everything is just a pattern 
that can be repeatable for 

830
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:18,960
financiers. 
Is that why this exists? 

831
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,480
I mean, it's, it's probably, 
there's a lot of truth in that. 

832
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,000
You know, once you can do it 
once, it doesn't doesn't 

833
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,000
necessarily pay to be different 
or unique. 

834
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,160
It it pays to be simple and to 
be repeatable and to be able to 

835
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,760
turn a handle and do the same 
thing over and over again. 

836
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,000
Unfortunately, it does create 
maybe urban sort of, you know, 

837
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,320
kind of similarities. 
But in our world actually, you 

838
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,080
know, that's that's what we need
to do, right? 

839
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,560
Like we don't need a biotchar 
project to look different. 

840
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,760
We just need a lot of them and 
we need them fast. 

841
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,440
Such an interesting point, and 
such a deep, deep tension for 

842
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,440
aesthetics and ethics and so 
many other questions about the 

843
00:42:58,440 --> 00:42:59,920
entire world. 
Turns out most of these 

844
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,120
questions end up touching the 
entire world when you start 

845
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,160
asking them. 
What advice might you give to a 

846
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,200
company that is working in 
biochar right now? 

847
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,240
I suppose it could be any type 
of project development, but 

848
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,920
you're closest to biochar at 
this point, even though 

849
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,920
historically you have not been. 
What advice could you give to 

850
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,720
someone who 2026 might be a hard
year? 

851
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:19,920
People are looking for potential
exits or partners or financing 

852
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,880
that might be different from the
10th BC telling them no after 

853
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,160
spending a lot of time in their 
data room. 

854
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,080
What should they? 
Do yes. 

855
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,320
Well, I mean, first we actually 
wrote a guide which we launched 

856
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,680
at COP 30 that goes through this
called the Bioshock blueprint, 

857
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,640
which you can download on our 
website at a healthier 

858
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,440
earth.com. 
It's about 60 page report. 

859
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,920
It's going to be 12 different 
collaborators that go through 

860
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,080
this in a lot of detail, I 
think. 

861
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,920
And, and it's, it's a really 
great, great resource and it was

862
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,800
designed to share a lot of our 
learnings over this, over this 

863
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,120
journey. 
I think again, it, it all 

864
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,160
depends on where you are in the 
development journey. 

865
00:43:55,040 --> 00:44:03,800
So if we talk about biochar, 
stop pitching the benefits of 

866
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,920
biochar and start pitching the, 
the business fundamentals and 

867
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,880
the financial fundamentals. 
So here's my pitch. 

868
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,360
I'll give you my pitch. 
This is the pitch that I give. 

869
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,160
It's the pitch I was giving at 
New York Climate Week and it's 

870
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,480
proved to be very effective. 
My pitch sounds like this. 

871
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,240
So people ask me what I do, 
right. 

872
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,240
You go to these New York Climate
Week events, you're up in sub 

873
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,360
tower with the lawyer office and
like some investor guy comes up.

874
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,560
She's like, what do you do? 
Or a woman, what do you do? 

875
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,800
And I go, you know, I, my 
company is called a heavier 

876
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,520
Earth. 
We produce high quality for rule

877
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,800
credits, but it's really boring.
I don't think you'd be 

878
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,840
interested. 
OK. 

879
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,400
And they're like what I mean 
what do you, what do you, what 

880
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,840
does your business do? 
Like what is it? 

881
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,320
I don't even know what carbon 
credits are like what does it 

882
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,200
do? 
And I was like well we generate 

883
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,000
15 to 17% of levered yield and 
19% IRR. 

884
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,800
We do that with having 40% of 
our revenues locked up in 15 

885
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,320
year off takes with high quality
third party counterparties with 

886
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,840
a AAA rated battle sheet. 
Our check sizes are between 15 

887
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,960
and $25 million a piece and we 
have about 11:50 of these to 

888
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,160
deploy over the next 18 months. 
Like I said, I don't think it's 

889
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,280
for you. 
Yeah, you sound like an alien, 

890
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,160
first of all. 
And I also, I love the sort of 

891
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,480
like the way that you're 
distancing yourself. 

892
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,480
It's like, oh, you probably 
aren't interested. 

893
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,320
I'm gonna go walk away. 
I love classic technique dating,

894
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,160
classic technique of business. 
OK, fun. 

895
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,800
But also like just speaking 
their language, they're like, 

896
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,760
no, that that actually sounds 
super interesting. 

897
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,600
Like what are you doing? 
And it's like a single biochar 

898
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,360
produces high quality carbon 
removal credits that we can sell

899
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:33,760
to customers who want to buy 
them. 

900
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,400
It also produces a product 
called voucher that we can use 

901
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,600
to create agricultural, 
horticultural building material 

902
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,360
benefits. 
And and we have facilities that 

903
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,160
cost between 15 and 25,000,000 
to build that that to produce 

904
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,640
this this product and and we 
sell them into the market. 

905
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:52,360
Like OK, yeah, that mean sounds 
interesting. 

906
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,840
I was like, yeah, multiple 
revenue streams can be, can be 

907
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,360
downside, can be an upside. 
And you kind of then get into 

908
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,000
detail on their questions. 
But then all of a sudden instead

909
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,720
of it being like, dude, I've got
this thing called biochar. 

910
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:03,840
It was admitted like 2000 years 
ago. 

911
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:05,240
It's going to literally 
revolution. 

912
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,200
I think it's going to be bigger 
than coal by 2015. 

913
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,120
OK, well, let me tell you about 
it, right? 

914
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,800
And literally at me, they're 
like just switched off, not 

915
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,680
interested. 
And so like, don't make your 

916
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,920
financials page 35 on your slide
deck. 

917
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,520
And like, you know, press 
releases about big investment in

918
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,440
the biochar from pure DC and 
Microsoft off takes and Google 

919
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:32,800
off takes and like that stuff in
the appendix #2 slide is the cut

920
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,680
4 core fundamental financials of
your business. 

921
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,920
That's what you need to be 
selling and you need to be 

922
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,560
selling it. 
And if you're not making money, 

923
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,560
then don't sell your business 
yet. 

924
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,360
Figure out how you're gonna make
money before you try to invest 

925
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,040
in your business or get 
investment in your business. 

926
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,920
Very sensible advice, but you 
seem very competent to do this 

927
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,040
alone. 
Like you could probably be 

928
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,720
successful and not be a fully on
subsidiary of a hyperscaler 

929
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:00,400
project developer, so why go 
down that route? 

930
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,560
Why not just do it yourself? 
You keep all the equity, you get

931
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,760
all the upside. 
If you're successful at it, why 

932
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,440
even bother with this weird 
structure? 

933
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,600
I mean, it's, it's, it's because
there is no way that I would be 

934
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:12,800
sitting at the tables that I sit
at. 

935
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,000
I would not, you know, I would 
not know. 

936
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,640
I know what I know now because 
I've sat at those tables 3 1/2 

937
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,400
years ago, four years ago, I was
pitching the wrong way. 

938
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,240
I was doing it all wrong. 
And I would have been just as 

939
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:32,600
unsuccessful as. 
I think that's a bit me, but I 

940
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,040
wouldn't have secured the 
funding right like I would have.

941
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,440
There's been no like you're a 
smart guy and this thing seems 

942
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,840
interesting, but like stuff for 
us, like sorry. 

943
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,960
Yeah. 
And I think that for me has been

944
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,600
so valuable like I could not 
put. 

945
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,240
And that's why he served himself
as oak tree trade like the the, 

946
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,560
the gauntlet, whatever you work 
whole night like and measure a 

947
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,520
success on how quickly we can 
get money approved from promote 

948
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,280
tree, right? 
You know, how well are we doing 

949
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,680
and speaking their language. 
And I think nine months was the 

950
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,640
first time it took me to get 
something approved. 

951
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,960
My personal best is -18 minutes.
So 18 minutes before we're 

952
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:11,160
supposed to sit down or review 
the deck. 

953
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:12,600
Just got an e-mail saying 
Alistair, we don't need to 

954
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,360
review the deck. 
The money's approved. 

955
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:15,840
It is up to date. 
Thank you very much. 

956
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:18,920
And that was not an 
insubstantial amount of money 

957
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,600
that now with their world, it 
was an insubstantial amount of 

958
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,920
money in our world. 
It was a very substantial amount

959
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,120
of money. 
And so like, there was no way I 

960
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,600
was ever going to get access to 
that where I retain equity, 

961
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:35,440
where I am fighting for, you 
know, whatever, whatever portion

962
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,200
that that I get. 
You know, private equity has its

963
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,280
own way of and a different way 
to to kind of BC or the 

964
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,760
traditional model of hold on to 
equity as much as you can. 

965
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,880
That's not the PE model. the PE 
model is I own the equity as the

966
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,280
investor owns the equity. 
And so there are mechanisms and 

967
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,800
approaches that they use that 
still incentivize management to 

968
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,920
be very engaged that, you know, 
are different than you owning 

969
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,720
the equity. 
And I guess kind of one year in,

970
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:08,000
it was, you know, pretty easy 
surmise is like, you know, do 

971
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,360
you do you own 100% of nothing 
or maybe a small percent of 

972
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,040
something very big. 
And you know, and so even 

973
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:16,240
ownership, you can't think of it
that way. 

974
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:21,240
But you know, if we kind of make
the comparison and yeah, it was 

975
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:24,600
a very easy decision to make. 
It was very well aligned, pure 

976
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,920
been a huge part of the 
evolution of the original 

977
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,880
company as well. 
So really from the outset, it 

978
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,600
was it was very well aligned. 
And it helped that some of the 

979
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,480
people of some of the leadership
up here I'd worked with before, 

980
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,480
before all of this in my 
previous career. 

981
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,920
So I had a bit of relationship 
there that made it easier. 

982
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,360
And yeah, like there's no way I 
would, there was no, there's no 

983
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,760
way I'd get into the rooms I get
into the banks that want to, to 

984
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,120
lend with us, the government 
institutions, the other 

985
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,520
financiers that I talked to. 
Like there's so many rooms I've 

986
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,920
got into that I shouldn't have 
been able to get into that. 

987
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,920
That has got me into that's 
been. 

988
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,040
You can't calculate the value of
that if you get my draft. 

989
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:13,640
I do OK, but someone listening 
here may not be super fluent in 

990
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,880
finance in the way that you are 
very comfortable walking into 

991
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,200
that room. 
I'm sure you have the right 

992
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,880
clothing to fit in with the PE 
folks. 

993
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,040
I imagine it's different from 
most people making biochar. 

994
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,320
It's a different kind of 
community here. 

995
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,840
White shirt, New Jule. 
You want to really fit in White 

996
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,720
shirt, blue Jule, blue slacks 
and like, what are those? 

997
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,440
The lean like trainers with the 
whites, The white band around 

998
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:36,320
the bottom. 
I don't know what they're 

999
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,080
called, but that is the uniform.
Listen up people. 

1000
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,440
That's, that's good advice, I 
think for culturally fitting in.

1001
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,240
But like, what do they do 
though, Because this is also 

1002
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:46,280
rooms that they don't have 
access to. 

1003
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,640
You have a previous career that 
prepared you for this moment 

1004
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,120
where you could take your 
business and know that you're 

1005
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:51,960
getting a, a deal that's 
ultimately worth it. 

1006
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,560
You're losing control of your 
company in a certain kind of 

1007
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,440
way, but you're getting access 
to rooms that you wouldn't have 

1008
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,120
otherwise access to a lot of 
financing. 

1009
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,560
This is a great deal, even if 
you're not going to see the 

1010
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:04,120
billion dollar IPO, which by the
way, like many project 

1011
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,080
developers are probably all of 
them, maybe maybe 100% of them 

1012
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,480
will never see any ways for 
product development within Cdr. 

1013
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,760
Like that's probably not going 
to happen anyways, but like the 

1014
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,960
idea of having ownership and 
being a founder in this kind of 

1015
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:16,760
way where you own the company, 
maintain control. 

1016
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,880
People watch things like the 
social network and they think 

1017
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,800
about the ownership struggles of
startups. 

1018
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,560
They want to be in control. 
PE likes to own everything that 

1019
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,600
they can because they want it. 
They want management decisions 

1020
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,600
to be in their hands and make 
sense their money. 

1021
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,000
Where do they line up to take 
meetings like this? 

1022
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,000
How do they prepare themselves? 
Or is this just you because this

1023
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,400
is your previous career and you 
speak the language already? 

1024
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:41,080
No, I mean, I wasn't accountants
before this, but my background 

1025
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,920
was, yes, I have an MBA and all 
that kind of fun jazz, but I 

1026
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,200
definitely did not speak the 
language going in. 

1027
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,200
And that's why I thankfully said
no so much. 

1028
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:58,480
I think look, the problem is we 
are not we are not startups, all

1029
00:51:58,480 --> 00:51:59,920
right? 
Everyone needs to stop thinking 

1030
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,840
about outside of like the 
registries and the certifiers 

1031
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,480
and the rating agencies and, you
know, all the soft stuff like 

1032
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,160
we're not going to app our way 
out of this problem. 

1033
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,560
But everyone who's building an 
app, OK, like, yeah, you could 

1034
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:12,600
probably think about it that 
way. 

1035
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:13,800
Like you want to retain 
ownership. 

1036
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:18,400
You can think about it like like
a, you know, any type of Silicon

1037
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,680
Valley sitcom, like, yes, but we
are not a start up. 

1038
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:26,000
We are infrastructure 
development company and other 

1039
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,920
biotrue developers are building 
infrastructure. 

1040
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,200
They are not building start-ups.
So firstly stop the key of 

1041
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,360
building a start up. 
So unless you can stump up 

1042
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,560
£5,000,000, you don't have a 
start up, you are building 

1043
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,680
infrastructure and nobody owns 
infrastructure except for the 

1044
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,000
people who are putting the money
in like they're not being. 

1045
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,280
That's the way it is. 
So if you want to get access to 

1046
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,640
the volume of capital you're 
going to need to get to real 

1047
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,560
scale without, you know, really 
struggling with boots trapping, 

1048
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,400
really struggling with getting 
grants like this is the way to 

1049
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,720
get access to the level of 
capital you need to do your 

1050
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:01,360
business. 
Now, you need to be clever in 

1051
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,920
how you negotiate your 
management package, right? 

1052
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,160
There's no question about that. 
And there's loads of lawyers out

1053
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,000
there that can help you do that.
You just need to pay them a bit 

1054
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,000
of money. 
Go get a really good lawyer, 

1055
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,560
right? 
Who if you get to the point 

1056
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:17,680
where someone wants to buy your 
business or invest, let's that 

1057
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,720
was even bad language. 
They're not buying your 

1058
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:21,720
business. 
They're making the in discipline

1059
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:24,560
in the infrastructure that 
allows the business you want to 

1060
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,720
exist. 
That's what's happening. 

1061
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,080
They're not buying your business
even though that is what happens

1062
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,040
on paper, like you lose 
ownership. 

1063
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,200
What they're actually doing is 
they're investing in the 

1064
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,960
infrastructure equity required 
to make your business run. 

1065
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,000
And that's what you need to 
think about it. 

1066
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,600
And if you were at that point 
where you have an investor, 

1067
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,680
let's imagine you've got Ontario
teachers pensions on the line, 

1068
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,560
right, somehow and they want to 
deploy 50 million into your 

1069
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,160
project. 
You've got them, you've you've 

1070
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:52,880
pitched them, right? 
You're at that point. 

1071
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,360
Get a really good lawyer, right?
This isn't like term sheet 

1072
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:58,400
stuff. 
You're not going to be going 

1073
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,120
through term sheets like you 
would in Silicon Valley startup.

1074
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,640
You are going to be going 
through a management incentive 

1075
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:08,280
plan or a long term growth 
equity share plan that will 

1076
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,800
align to certain objectives that
you need to deliver that will 

1077
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:16,120
then reward you commensurately 
so that you benefit when the 

1078
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,600
company benefits. 
So you still have a benefit 

1079
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,400
structure, but just get a really
good lawyer. 

1080
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:21,920
All right, I can not stress this
enough. 

1081
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,760
And there's loads of them out 
there are expensive, but get 

1082
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:29,400
one, OK, you don't have to know 
everything, but to get to that 

1083
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,160
point, I think your question 
also, Ross, there was how do 

1084
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:32,480
you, how do you get to that 
point? 

1085
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:42,000
You, you have to, so you have to
think big. 

1086
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,600
You, you, you have to like 
$5,000,000 is not big enough. 

1087
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:48,800
It's not going to float anyone's
boat. 

1088
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,720
It's too big for the small guys,
small with individuals who might

1089
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:55,520
do it, like like the smaller 
individuals and it's too big. 

1090
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,120
It's, it's too big for them. 
Sorry. 

1091
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,680
It's too small for, for any of 
the private equities, like 2025 

1092
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,040
million, kind of the minimum 
scale. 

1093
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,480
You need to have a really core 
product and you need to have 

1094
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,160
contracts. 
So like is your EPC contracted? 

1095
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,480
Do you have draft contracts for 
your your machinery? 

1096
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,680
Not like I've been to China and 
I've seen the machine. 

1097
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,640
No. 
Do you have the draft contract 

1098
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,120
that's been through your lawyer 
that is ready to sign? 

1099
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,160
Do you have planning and 
permitting for your facility? 

1100
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,320
Do you have certification 
already? 

1101
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,880
As much as you can done? 
Do you have a pre off take 

1102
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,640
contract for your credits? 
Do you have biochar offtake for 

1103
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:36,920
at least three years of your 
operation? 

1104
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,840
And when I say like biochar, I'm
not saying like, oh, the guy 

1105
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,600
down the road said he's gonna 
take it to put in cement. 

1106
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,360
No, I mean like assigned letter 
of intent, minimum draft heads 

1107
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,840
of terms better like draft 
contract, best sign contract. 

1108
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,400
Actually the best, but very 
difficult to get without that. 

1109
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,600
Show up with those things, tell 
them that you have a you're you,

1110
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,080
you can, you have a business 
that can generate a 15% or 

1111
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:04,080
higher unlevered yield that you 
need to deploy 20 to $25 million

1112
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,200
pounds sterling, whatever that 
you have. 

1113
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,960
These contracts progress to the 
point where they would be ready 

1114
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,960
for signing or close to ready 
for signing, subject to an FID. 

1115
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:20,040
And that you are looking for 
£1,000,000 to get yourself to 

1116
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,680
full FID, to use the right 
lawyers they want you to use to 

1117
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,560
do the work they want you to do 
to finalize all of these bets. 

1118
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,280
And then once you've done that, 
so they're only putting a 

1119
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,000
million on the door door now. 
And yes, you might be giving up.

1120
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:33,600
It might feel like you're 
selling your company for 

1121
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,720
$1,000,000, but what you're 
actually getting is a real 

1122
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:41,600
chance to, to, to, to, to, to 
sell you to, to, to build, 

1123
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:42,800
sorry, the business you want to 
build. 

1124
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:44,680
They'll spend the million with 
you. 

1125
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,760
You do the work you do. 
You do it on time, not early, 

1126
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,760
not late on time. 
Do not be early. 

1127
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,200
It's not good. 
Doesn't look good. 

1128
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,120
OK, I've done this. 
I've been like, hey, they're 

1129
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:55,880
like 5 months early and I need 
the money now. 

1130
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,840
And they're like, so we don't 
have the money right now. 

1131
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:01,920
You told us it was going to be 
needed in five months, so you're

1132
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,120
going to need to wait for five 
months. 

1133
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,240
Why did you do that? 
Don't be early, don't be late. 

1134
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,520
Don't be over budget. 
Don't be under budget. 

1135
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,400
Be on time and do what you say. 
Show up with the millions spent.

1136
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,640
I've spent 995,000 of your 
millions. 

1137
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,960
This is what I spent it on. 
Yes, there was a bit of moving 

1138
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:18,280
between it, but it was all 
right. 

1139
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,120
Here's the contracts now at the 
state you said they would be. 

1140
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,520
We're now ready to go. 
We have strong confidence in our

1141
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,480
ability to deliver the 15% 
levered yields. 

1142
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,480
Can we now have the $24,000,000 
to actually want to build this? 

1143
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,400
By the way, I only need 6 
million to get me over the next 

1144
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,920
18 months. 
The rest of it comes when the 

1145
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,400
60% balloon payment is required 
for my machine machinery. 

1146
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,520
So I actually only need 
6,000,000 now. 

1147
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:43,280
And by the way, if this whole 
thing goes up like completely 

1148
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:48,000
wrong, we can sell the site to 
these people, likely recover 20%

1149
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,640
of the value, we can sell this 
and we can make the people 

1150
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,080
unfortunately redundant right 
away. 

1151
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,640
Therefore, your total equity 
exposure is maybe only about 4 

1152
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:57,640
million. 
So really you're only risking 4 

1153
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,520
million for this upside. 
That is what you need to do. 

1154
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,000
And like again, the bioturist 
stuff that's in the appendix, 

1155
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,160
unless it's relevant to the 
contracts that you have, it's in

1156
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:08,680
the appendix. 
The like great things that's 

1157
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,400
going to do the world in the 
appendix, the fact that dealing 

1158
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,480
with your biomass stops, I don't
know, algae flows into the Great

1159
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,520
Barrier Reef that you know, kill
loads of things great in the 

1160
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,920
appendix, the glass light in the
appendix, all just upside. 

1161
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,840
This is such a fascinating 
contrarian take. 

1162
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:26,880
I don't know that I've ever 
heard. 

1163
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:28,800
I've barely had to do anything 
in this podcast, by the way. 

1164
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,520
I just let you let it RIP 
potentially like, which is fine 

1165
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,760
for me. 
I'm just like, this is great 

1166
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:35,000
stuff. 
People should, should know about

1167
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,200
this is is anyone else thinking 
about it in this way? 

1168
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,200
I know of some PE originated 
company that just like grew out 

1169
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:41,840
of private equity from the very 
beginning. 

1170
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,960
I know some of these deals that 
do exist, but I, I never hear 

1171
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:46,520
anyone talk about it's mostly 
people who are very 

1172
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,360
sophisticated who have done 
things in their careers that 

1173
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,880
previous, this is not their 
first experience doing serious 

1174
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,600
big business deals with other 
people. 

1175
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,760
They're not just start up 
founders with a dream and a 

1176
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,360
pitch deck. 
It's a different kind of person 

1177
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:58,520
that comes at it from this 
angle. 

1178
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,400
But is this happening? 
Are you seeing more of it? 

1179
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:11,320
I'm trying to not really I want 
to see more of it like I'm 

1180
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,600
seeing a couple of funds like 
midcap funds, so between a 

1181
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,080
billion and $2 billion sort of 
in capsized the one to deploy 

1182
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,560
exactly to these markets, 
exactly these prices, but can't 

1183
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,760
find the people. 
It's part of the reason that we 

1184
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,240
wrote the biochar blueprints to 
try to share this way of 

1185
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,560
thinking and and this approach 
so that more people can access. 

1186
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,200
So the things that we learned 
and also some of the key, you 

1187
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,080
know, like our lawyers are, are 
in there. 

1188
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:37,960
So if you want to use lawyers 
and you could probably, you 

1189
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,680
could probably reuse them, 
they're probably pretty good. 

1190
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:42,240
They're sponsors of the show, 
too. 

1191
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:43,960
It's Phillip. 
Phillip Lee LLP Yeah. 

1192
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:45,480
Exactly. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1193
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,800
So, so, so Phillip Lee, our, 
our, I've commented there, you 

1194
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,960
know, gives people maybe a 
pathway to get to this, but 

1195
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,080
there needs to be a lot more. 
But what I can say is like, if 

1196
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,720
you can do this, there is a lot 
of money out there. 

1197
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,840
Like I have literally had at 
least three conversations with 

1198
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,800
other equity houses who have 
said I've got 50 to $150 million

1199
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,880
to deploy in biochar right now. 
I've been looking and I can't 

1200
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,600
find it to deploy. 
And it's because they don't want

1201
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,840
to write checks for less than 25
or $30 million and they want it 

1202
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:18,800
back. 
Institute people management 

1203
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,120
teams they believe can deliver. 
You're a guy with a dream and 

1204
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,200
you don't have infrastructure 
experience. 

1205
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,720
You're #2 should have a 
infrastructure experience. 

1206
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,240
Like you need to be credible 
that when you get given $6 

1207
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,520
million you are going to deploy 
that and you are going to sign 

1208
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,480
contracts that will move the 
project forward and not, you 

1209
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,920
know, not do that. 
Party mansion? 

1210
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:43,360
Yeah. 
What exactly? 

1211
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,000
This is not BC land. 
Like that's what BC does. 

1212
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,680
BC throws money to you and like 
do what you need, spend your 

1213
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,000
money. 
This is not that. 

1214
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,680
This is, I would describe it as 
forensic, right? 

1215
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:58,000
They will be through your 
contracts like oak tree is 

1216
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,680
deploying billions of dollars 
and they will literally question

1217
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,680
me on £150,000 that I want to 
spend. 

1218
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,600
Why are you spending 100 like 
that feels expensive. 

1219
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:08,880
Oak tree signs off every single 
contract. 

1220
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:10,280
So just so you can have the 
illegals. 

1221
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,080
We have external legal counsel 
writer contracts. 

1222
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,840
We have internal pure legal 
review them. 

1223
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,400
So that's internal, my parent 
company and before I'm allowed 

1224
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,920
to put them up for signature, 
they go to Oak Tree and Oak 

1225
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,080
Tree's internal legal counsel 
reviews the contracts. 

1226
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,960
This is for like £250,000 a year
contracts. 

1227
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:31,280
And they come back with 
comments. 

1228
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:33,520
I've already done the 
negotiation, I've done three 

1229
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,920
months worth of legal work and 
the Oak Tree guys come back are 

1230
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,520
like, we don't like this clause.
Like why is this clause in 

1231
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:39,960
there? 
And then I have to explain why 

1232
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,720
the clause is there and why we 
can't negotiate out or what risk

1233
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,320
mitigation I put in to overcome 
them. 

1234
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,840
That's the level of detail they 
are going to be in, even on the 

1235
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,800
small stuff. 
One cheeky question before we 

1236
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,600
leave do you ever consider it 
ironic that your last name is 

1237
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:56,840
Collier and you ended up in 
charcoal? 

1238
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,200
I, I, I have, I have never 
thought of that. 

1239
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,040
Actually. 
That is, yeah. 

1240
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:05,280
I've never actually thought of 
that. 

1241
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,840
That's how I'm going to end the 
show for wonderful advice. 

1242
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,400
Thank you for being here. 
Listen up everyone. 

1243
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,360
And then links in the show notes
for everything that you need. 

1244
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,480
And thank you so much, Alistair.
You bet. 

1245
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:17,080
Thank you very much.