1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,400 You're listening to the reversing climate change podcast 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,400 by Nori. The world's first carbon removal 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,200 Marketplace, here are your hosts, Ross, Kenyon and 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:18,300 Christoph jospeh, say hello and welcome to the reversing climate 5 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:20,800 change podcast with Nori. I'm Ross, Kenyan here, with 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,900 Kristoff, Joss Bay and producer Paul. 7 00:00:22,900 --> 00:00:25,100 We are now in Oakland California. 8 00:00:25,100 --> 00:00:28,300 We all flew over here, had some troubles with our flights. 9 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:29,400 On many of them. Got delayed. 10 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:31,400 We made it. Just in time christop. 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,800 Why don't you introduce Our Guest here? 12 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,700 Yeah we're sitting in a very trendy. 13 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:38,300 We work always nice to kombucha on tap. 14 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,500 Yeah I stopped there. What's that sitting across from 15 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:46,400 us is dr. Julio Friedman Julio is the CEO 16 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,000 of carbon Wrangler and a distinguished fellow of Energy, 17 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,600 Futures initiative and he was also formerly the pedis. 18 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,700 Let me see if I can get that. The principal Deputy assistant 19 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:02,400 secretary, Terry of the office of fossil energy at the 20 00:01:02,408 --> 00:01:06,300 department of energy, which is a pretty cool place to be when 21 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,800 you're working in the Obama Administration, trying to really 22 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:14,500 move the needle. So I remember first seeing Julio 23 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:20,600 in May May 31st 2017, he was actually talking at the world's 24 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,500 first. Direct air capture commercial, 25 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:25,600 plant opening at climb works. The words coming out of his 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,500 mouth were bold and audacious and seemed completely aligned 27 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:30,100 with things that I cared about. Out. 28 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:33,700 So I remember exchanging cards and he was very kind to follow 29 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:36,200 up with me and stay in touch, and here we are. 30 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:38,400 Let's give a little bit of your background, uh, Julio. 31 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,900 Let's where did this all, start. How did you get to being a 32 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:44,500 carbon Wrangler? The short version of the, long 33 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:48,800 story starts at cop, 22. It was right after the election 34 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,400 and a lot of people were wandering around my Rakesh, you 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,000 know, flapping, like, wet hens going. 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,700 Oh, what do we do? Now, the sky is falling. 37 00:01:56,700 --> 00:01:59,800 All is doom and cop, 22 is kind of dead. 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,500 Tory, start cop. We're going to make fun of you 39 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:04,800 if you use acronyms so you can have this conference of the 40 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,600 parties. Thank you, cop, 22 and I was in 41 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,400 an airless room after airless room. 42 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,000 Listening to park and bark talks and it was just not a very good 43 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,300 vibe in contrast, there was an event taking place outside of 44 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:20,900 Marrakesh referred to affectionately as the do Fest 45 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:23,100 because that's what doers do. They go to the do Fest? 46 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:26,200 It was a tremendous experience. It was full of Art and 47 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,300 Entrepreneurship. You know, people doing 48 00:02:28,300 --> 00:02:29,800 environmental work and communication. 49 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:33,800 Ian's experts and designers and scientists, it was just totally 50 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,600 thrilling and the focus of the do Fest was if the government 51 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,000 can't be counted on to deliver the goods we're going to have to 52 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,800 roll up our sleeves and get more active. 53 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,400 And at the end of that whole experience, I had an epiphany 54 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,000 and I said, that's what I do. I'm a carbon Wrangler, I have 55 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,500 trained as a geoscientists, I've worked in government of work in 56 00:02:51,500 --> 00:02:53,600 Academia. I've worked in business worked 57 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,400 at a National Lab. I've been in Obama 58 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,600 administration to point D in The Guiding star and all of that is 59 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,900 How do you keep carbon out of the atmosphere how do you take 60 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:04,300 it out once it's there. And that's what Wranglers do is 61 00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:07,300 they take things from where they're not supposed to be and 62 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:08,400 put them where they're supposed to be. 63 00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:12,800 Do you often say Yeehaw the wrong moment sometimes? 64 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,400 I am never say Yeehaw ever but I lived in Houston long enough to 65 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,800 know that the plural of y'all is all y'all and so you can't see 66 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,500 it right now. But Julio actually has a bolo 67 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:26,400 tie and a cowboy hat on. He's really going for this 68 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,200 Wrangler. Look, the Western Wear shirt was 69 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,500 a gift from My wife's. What can I say? 70 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,500 We've got a great story, Livermore, Livermore, 71 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:36,100 California, is Rodeo country. We've got one of the oldest 72 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:37,800 rodeos there. I encourage you all to come out 73 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,800 to Bachman's, Western Wear Store, buy some boots by shirt. 74 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,700 Hit the rodeo. It's always the second weekend 75 00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:48,500 of June, the tourist board paying you or I'm always in 76 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:51,300 probably showing up if I can Wrangle carbon at this video, 77 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,700 that sounds like a fun road it so okay. 78 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:57,300 Carbon wrangling can we Define it in a sentence and we're 79 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,700 sleeping carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and Also pulling 80 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:02,400 it back at the same time. Yes. 81 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:07,000 So and why does that matter? It's clear from the climate 82 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,300 math, that we have a very tough road to hoe. 83 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,600 If you believe in climate science, if you Embrace climate 84 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,800 science, you have to embrace climate math and the math is 85 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,200 unforgiving and harsh. We are not on a two-degree 86 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,300 trajectory, even with Paris agreements. 87 00:04:21,300 --> 00:04:25,500 Were maybe on a 2.7 degree trajectory may be 3.5, it ain't 88 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:27,900 looking good. And in order to get a two-degree 89 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:29,800 trajectory, we simply have to do a lot more. 90 00:04:29,900 --> 00:04:31,300 More. We have to do a lot more 91 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:34,900 abatement and we have to do Beyond abatement. 92 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,400 The math shows that 87 percent of the ipcc models require 93 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,300 carbon removal by mid-century and they require carbon removal 94 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:46,300 from the air and oceans at Mammoth scales at the scale of 95 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,800 tens of Giga tons and for your audience, that's not going to 96 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,500 the store and buying a giga ton of carrots. 97 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:53,700 You don't necessarily know how to evaluate gigaton. 98 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:56,600 A gigaton is twice the weight of all the people on Earth. 99 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,400 So it's a big number and a gigaton is The amount of oil and 100 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:06,200 gas that Exxon shell and BP move in a year is a huge volume of 101 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:07,900 material. The entire oil and gas industry. 102 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:11,000 Is 10 Giga, tons of stuff in order for us to get to a 103 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,000 stabilization. Trajectory we got to drop our 104 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,000 current emissions by 15 giga. Tons in 12 years, that's two 105 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,100 Senate Cycles. That's before my kids have kids, 106 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:22,400 we need an industry that is bigger than the whole oil and 107 00:05:22,407 --> 00:05:24,800 gas industry, pull in CO2 out of the air. 108 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,200 And that's got a start about then the second best time to 109 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,400 plant a tree is now. And so I voted with my feet and 110 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,300 thought I need to figure out how to get these Technologies 111 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:37,000 deployed awesome. Aw yeah. 112 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,600 So there's a lot of work ahead. We clearly needed to get started 113 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,800 with this whole effort yesterday, but as you said that 114 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,600 the second time best time to plant a tree is right now. 115 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:48,200 A lot of idioms coming out. Yeah. 116 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:49,200 A lot of good ones. Yeah. 117 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,000 Good ones. And so we're talking about the 118 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,300 climate math and just to put this in perspective, the world 119 00:05:54,300 --> 00:05:57,500 puts how many Giga tons each year into the atmosphere from 120 00:05:57,500 --> 00:05:59,700 fossil based in my greenhouse gas equivalent. 121 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,100 Is 53 Giga, tons a year about 75% of that is energy sector and 122 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:07,800 fossil fuels. The other 25% is land use. 123 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,500 It's part of the reason why we need carbon removal. 124 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:13,400 Is that actually if you zeroed out all the fossil energy you'd 125 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,100 still be stuffed, there's parts of the system that are hard to 126 00:06:16,100 --> 00:06:18,300 scrub. We're doing great on the power 127 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:19,400 sector. That's terrific. 128 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,500 We got lots of options. We've got lots of Technologies, 129 00:06:21,500 --> 00:06:23,000 fielded in the industrial sector. 130 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,600 We got nothing, we got carbon capture and storage, and that's 131 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,400 it. And for the land use sector, 132 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,900 we've got even less than that. We haven't figured out how to 133 00:06:30,907 --> 00:06:33,200 stop chopping down trees. We keep doing that. 134 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,900 We haven't figured out how to not use ammonia based 135 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:37,700 fertilizers or nitrogen based fertilizers. 136 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:40,900 So the nitrous emissions from those are a mammoth contribution 137 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:42,900 to greenhouse gas emissions. We don't know how to decarbonize 138 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:44,500 planes. We don't know how to decarbonize 139 00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:46,500 boats. We don't know how to decarbonize 140 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,600 cooking and our gas stoves. There's all kinds of things 141 00:06:49,608 --> 00:06:53,700 where we just have a long way to go and that buys climate debt. 142 00:06:53,700 --> 00:06:56,400 We are building climate debt every year. 143 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,900 So if all future, green energy all Your energy deployed had no 144 00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:04,400 carbon emissions, we would still be admitting fifty three billion 145 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,200 tons a year and at that level we run out of one and a half 146 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,200 degrees. It's six years we run out of 2 147 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,800 degrees in 20 years we just overshoot. 148 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,800 And so that's why carbon removal has moved forward as an obvious 149 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,500 and important idea. But focus on removal to is that 150 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:23,700 in many of these cases maybe it isn't worth decarbonizing or 151 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:25,900 maybe it's just not economically feasible when you're hoping that 152 00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:28,800 the technology for removing carbon after the effect might 153 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,700 actually be easier. Our cheaper better is that part 154 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:33,500 of the focus or part of the hope. 155 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:35,400 That's not really how I think about it. 156 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,400 I think about it as we have to do all things in Spades, we have 157 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,700 to Triple down on everything we're already doing and do more. 158 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,400 So we have to continue with mitigation as much of it as we 159 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,300 can get as fast as we can get. We also know that's not going to 160 00:07:49,308 --> 00:07:50,900 be enough. So we need to create a new 161 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:53,600 Enterprise that does carbon removal on top of that. 162 00:07:53,700 --> 00:07:56,600 And then after that it still might not be enough. 163 00:07:56,700 --> 00:08:00,600 There's some mixture of mitigation adaptation Suffering. 164 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,700 The more mitigation we do the more carbon removal. 165 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:07,000 We do the less adaptation in the less suffering were purchasing 166 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,000 in the future. I know it isn't popular for 167 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,600 people that work in the environmental field to even talk 168 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,300 about adaptation but I mean you brought it up so is it okay in 169 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:16,800 these circles to talk about that? 170 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:18,600 What's interesting is 10 years ago. 171 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,000 It was a persona non grata topic 10 years ago, everybody was 172 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,700 saying we can't even talk about adaptation as a moral hazard. 173 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:29,300 If we even acknowledge that we have to do some adaptation, then 174 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,000 we might Not do as much mitigation as we need to do so 175 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,400 fast forward. 10 years, guess what? 176 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,600 The cats out of the bag? The horse out of the stable, 177 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,299 everybody's like, oh crap. We actually have the sea level 178 00:08:39,299 --> 00:08:41,000 rise. The heat waves, the Super 179 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,299 Storms, all these things. So now we need to start spending 180 00:08:43,299 --> 00:08:45,800 on adaptation as well, and the reason I go through all that 181 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,200 discussion, is because carbon removal is just getting the 182 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,200 treatment now that adaptation got ten years ago. 183 00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:54,300 People are saying we can't even talk about carbon removal. 184 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:56,200 It might reduce our need for mitigation. 185 00:08:56,300 --> 00:08:58,800 Hey, math is math. If you can do arithmetic, you 186 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,500 can figure this out. And if you know that we need to 187 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:06,300 do carbon removal to get to a stable just transition to get to 188 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:10,700 as ecosystem sustained world. It's the math, put some money 189 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:13,900 into it, start the work, don't talk to me whether it's a moral 190 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:19,000 hazard or not, get on with it we got things to do a popular 191 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,100 because of this or is this people like this? 192 00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:24,900 Are they starting to now though what I find is that most people 193 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,000 like this, there are some groups which you could call on the far 194 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,000 left or you Good call on the far-right who don't like this 195 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,100 discussion but I don't want to live my life on both ends of the 196 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:37,300 dumbbell. I want to live my life, doing 197 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:41,300 the work that needs to get done and, you know, just like any 198 00:09:41,300 --> 00:09:43,900 other 12-step program, acknowledging the problems the 199 00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:47,700 first step, we're going. So deep in the idioms and 200 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:48,800 metaphors. I love it. 201 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,600 And that I was going to ask a different question. 202 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,600 But let's unpack this 12-step program. 203 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,100 So you admit you have a problem and it seems like our problem as 204 00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,700 a whole is that we've put this CO2. 205 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,800 Which let's call it garbage. We put this garbage out into the 206 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,300 street freely and there's no price that we have to pay for 207 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:07,000 the garbage. And now there's all this excess 208 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,700 garbage that already, maybe we can quibble on the numbers but 209 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:13,800 let's say 750 billion tonnes which is too much. 210 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,200 We want to pull it back and we're putting whatever fifty, 211 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,500 three billion tons of garbage into the street every year. 212 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,800 And we need to stop that and negate that. 213 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,300 So I'm going through your 12-step problem and I admit. 214 00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:28,400 Okay, we have a problem. What's next? 215 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:29,600 What's next? Thanks. 216 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,100 Polly is a bunch of stuff we're already doing plus carbon 217 00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:35,900 wrangling, which is why I'm here. 218 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:38,000 I suppose the stuff we're already doing is we need to 219 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,800 actually go farther on a lot of the stuff we already know how to 220 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,500 do, we need to go farther on solar. 221 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,100 We need to go farther on wind. We need to go farther on 222 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:48,100 efficiency. We need to go farther on V's 223 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:50,500 need to go farther on nuclear. We need to go farther on 224 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:53,600 conventional capture and storage when you do all that stuff and a 225 00:10:53,608 --> 00:10:56,100 bunch of it. The metaphor, I used to describe 226 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,100 this as essentially a weight-loss metaphor. 227 00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:01,300 We need to do a combination. Should have changing your diet 228 00:11:01,300 --> 00:11:04,900 and exercise and eating less. And all those things that I 229 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:07,200 talked about. Fill that boat, then comes the 230 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,900 part where you have to clean up your room afterwards or even if 231 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:11,900 you manage to lose weight, you're not out of the water 232 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:15,200 because you created a mess. It is strictly speaking, carbon 233 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,200 pollution. In fact, is a carbon itself, is 234 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,300 not a bad thing. Everything in this building 235 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:22,500 that's not made out of steel or glass, or rock is made out of 236 00:11:22,508 --> 00:11:23,700 carbon. In fact, some of the rocks made 237 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:25,900 out of carbon to my clothes are made out of carbon. 238 00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:28,100 I made it a carbon. It's not a carbons necessarily a 239 00:11:28,108 --> 00:11:31,300 bad thing, but it's pollution if it's Dost in the wrong place and 240 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:33,400 that's the problem. We have gasoline is great in the 241 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,100 gas tank. It's terrible in my water. 242 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,300 It's a pollution in one place. It's not in the other. 243 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,600 So the question is, if there's carbon is not supposed to be in 244 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,000 the atmosphere at that dose at that concentration, then you got 245 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,700 to clean it up. So I think of the sky in one of 246 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,700 a couple of different ways. I think of it as a massive 247 00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:51,500 Superfund Site to be cleaned up. Alternatively, you think of it 248 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:55,600 as a massive load to be mind. It's actually now increasingly 249 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,600 seen as a resource that can be harvested for gain that. 250 00:11:59,900 --> 00:12:04,100 Change of thought that reframing of the problem is, in part, 251 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,100 going to create new companies, new Industries, new Enterprises. 252 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:10,000 That we are only just starting to imagine. 253 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,500 It's a new kind of white space thinking about skymining as a 254 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:16,300 human undertaking to do well by doing good. 255 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,100 And that's actually where carbon wrangling is heading. 256 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,600 And it's not too good to be true. 257 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,600 No. So I had to obligatory really 258 00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:25,200 say, the thing. You have a chance right now 259 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,800 where people can make money doing the right thing. 260 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,200 You have selfish means turning into Oh, social ends and this is 261 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,400 on that you want to harness. This is what we love to. 262 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,700 We think like if people can make money off of this, this is 263 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,800 actually like the beginning of it wears like the old way. 264 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,700 Like, when I grew up environmentalism was like a lot 265 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:42,300 of finger-wagging and scolding. I don't really think that's 266 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:43,700 going to lead to anything that positive. 267 00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:45,400 I feel like we've kind of already maxed that out. 268 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:46,900 Is there anyone left to go with that? 269 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:49,500 Yeah, I've learned a couple of things over the course of my 270 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:51,500 career and working in government and so forth. 271 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:53,500 One of the things I learned is that you don't make progress 272 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:56,300 telling people why they're stupid, that just is a dead end. 273 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:59,400 And said you have to tell people why there's hope and good things 274 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,700 to do. It's a much more useful approach 275 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:03,700 of our time. There's only so much progress, 276 00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:05,500 you can make with fear mongering at some point. 277 00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:07,800 People are like paralyzed, you actually have to give them 278 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,200 useful positive actions. And if they can make money in 279 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,300 the process, all the better because that unleashes markets 280 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:15,600 and that creates positive feedbacks. 281 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,900 And in the system that are very, very important. 282 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,800 One of the other things that I learned is that the United 283 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,500 States government does not make policy in other countries. 284 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,800 We are one of 197 to sometimes even by proxy, not so much, the 285 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,100 some work so well. Well yeah, we can't make policy 286 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:34,400 in China. We can't make policy in India. 287 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,500 We can't make policy in Germany. We just don't this is not 288 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:40,400 something that the United States can do and those countries have 289 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,700 their own emissions roads to ho. And so, again, if you can 290 00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:47,100 provide them with a technology, if you can provide them with 291 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:49,800 markets, if you can provide them, the opportunity, they can 292 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,200 choose to polarize positive in a way that works for their 293 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,100 countries absent. That we're just got more debt in 294 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:58,300 the future. We've got more carbon to remove 295 00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:01,100 every year, so with the Octane and cryptocurrency space. 296 00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:03,100 There's been a crazy Gold Rush as last year. 297 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:04,700 I'm not sure to what degree you followed it. 298 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,200 But is there going to be a carbon removal Gold Rush coming 299 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,500 up in the next couple years? I think a number of groups are 300 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:11,900 going to go after that and of course Nori is already going 301 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:14,700 after that Nori is cryptocurrency. 302 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,300 Founded on the basic premise of carbon removal as a product. 303 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:20,900 I think we're probably going to see more offerings like that 304 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,200 whether or not those are substantial or sensible 305 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,600 Investments, I wouldn't vouchsafe, but I do think that 306 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,600 we're going to start taking more shots on net. 307 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:31,300 And that people are in the cryptocurrency. 308 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:34,700 Space are going to look for opportunities to do that. 309 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:39,600 For me, based on my experience. A requirement of that success 310 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,800 will be validation. That it'll be very hard to 311 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,900 transact in the carbon space. If the carbon transaction itself 312 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:49,800 is not validated, that actually is either a hurdle to be 313 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,500 overcome or an opportunity to engage more people. 314 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:54,900 There are people out there who already do carbon trading carbon 315 00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:56,700 certification, lose, those sorts of things. 316 00:14:56,700 --> 00:14:59,200 So there's an industry out there that could look to carbon 317 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,200 removal. Another opportunity and seek to 318 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,000 franchise into that space. Well, thanks for calling us out 319 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:05,600 Julio. Yep. 320 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,400 We're going for the gold rush. And I mean I kind of see part of 321 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,400 what we're doing is not certainly mining for gold but 322 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,400 rather trying to build the Levi's jeans and the shovels so 323 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,100 that gold mining can occur and a quicker scale and hoping that 324 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:22,200 others actually might copy what we're doing because that would 325 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,200 make progress happen more quickly. 326 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,600 We like to say if someone were to look at Nori's design and 327 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,800 completely copy certain elements more shots on net. 328 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:33,700 Our goal here is to reverse climate change and one of the 329 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:36,100 ways that we're going about doing that is by building 330 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:39,500 methodologies, in an open and transparent platform. 331 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:43,000 So that the carbon accounting can indeed improve as more data, 332 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,900 goes through there and people can trust that what's happening, 333 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:49,400 which from our perspective is getting the math on the negative 334 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,200 carbon emissions, right? That's actually occurring. 335 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:59,500 We're at kind of like to go into how you see these various 336 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:02,100 Accounting, metrics all adding up. 337 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,800 So we can talk about removing carbon and then putting it in 338 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,600 biomass, or we can talk about removing carbon and putting it 339 00:16:07,608 --> 00:16:10,400 in a mineral. And when, that biomass Burns, it 340 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,500 goes back into the atmosphere. Well, when I burn the minute, I 341 00:16:12,508 --> 00:16:13,800 can't bear the middle. It's a rock. 342 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,600 It's still there and it's more permanent and so, maybe what is 343 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:20,800 the carbon that's been wrangled in the mineral has a higher 344 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,700 value or there's a premium that someone might want to pay? 345 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,700 And I remember one of the Articles we can link to this 346 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:29,500 that you wrote was all about insects versus offsets. 347 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:31,600 Could you explain that to our listeners? 348 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,000 Absolutely. And you sort of hit it on the 349 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,100 head that this is a market which is forming and being explored in 350 00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:39,600 this like any other New Market, we don't necessarily know what 351 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,600 the customers are. We don't necessarily know how 352 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,300 much people will pay. There's a bunch of stuff, we 353 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:45,900 don't know, but these markets are coming forward and I tried 354 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:50,400 to break the landscape out into three segments offsets on sets. 355 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:54,500 And in sets off sets, a lot of people are familiar with these 356 00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:57,000 are traded actually by the European trading scheme, they're 357 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,100 validated by conventional carbon validators. 358 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:01,600 What are you Defining here for our listeners are. 359 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,400 Maybe new was just about to do that. 360 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:04,599 So we're over. Yeah. 361 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,099 Cyrus ruined ruined my flow. So that's quite all right. 362 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,599 But the punch line is these are mechanisms that were set up 363 00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,300 maybe 20 years ago by the United Nations under Kyoto. 364 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:17,599 So things like redd+ things like the clean development mechanism, 365 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:20,800 creative context in which a lot of offsets could be traded. 366 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,599 The thing about most offsets is most offsets don't actually 367 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,099 deliver carbon abatement at all a few do. 368 00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:29,100 If you go to a Dairy Lagoon and capture the methane and destroy 369 00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:31,400 it or Or whatever. Then then actually that 370 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,300 qualifies as a carbon reduction for real, but a lot of them are 371 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:37,700 not that they're often things. Like we're going to build a 372 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:41,400 solar panels and solar power plants in Africa, and that will 373 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,900 mean that they won't build a coal-fired power plant in the 374 00:17:43,908 --> 00:17:46,000 future. So there's a lot of counter 375 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:49,400 factual philosophy that goes into the offset markets and the 376 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,200 people who work in those space or familiar with the challenges 377 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,200 and problems associated with that. 378 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,000 The punch line is, if you care about carbon, you need to do 379 00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:02,000 something in addition to It offsets are great, they preserve 380 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,700 biodiversity they help native indigenous peoples. 381 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,100 They deliver clean water. There's all kinds of things that 382 00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,600 they deliver, but the carbon is not the big thing. 383 00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:13,900 So we need to do to other kinds of actions and transactions in 384 00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:17,500 order to get there, one of them's on sets together in sets 385 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,000 and basically, I've split the landscape and onsets into 386 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,000 something that's going on the surface of the Earth and 387 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,600 insights. That's going into a product or 388 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,800 into the surface of the Earth underground. 389 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,500 The best example for insights that I can come up. 390 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,200 With is the project in Reykjavik. 391 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:32,400 We're climb works and wreak havoc. 392 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,300 Energy are capturing CO2 from the air, putting it to Miles 393 00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:37,800 underground, and it mineralize has in less than two years. 394 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,300 Great. That is as robust a transaction 395 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:42,700 as you can make, you know, exactly how much CO2 goes in. 396 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:45,300 You got a meter on it. It's monitored underground. 397 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,200 You show and validate scientifically. 398 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,200 It turns into a mineral awesome that is very different than some 399 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,400 counterfactual exercise around potential emissions deployment 400 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,800 in the future and its consequences should be valued in 401 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,200 the market differently. Same With onsets, onsets are 402 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,200 things like putting biochar into soils soil, carbon farming, a 403 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,500 forestation or reforestation. These things are all places 404 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:10,900 where you're taking the carbon out of the atmosphere and 405 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:14,300 putting them on the surface of the Earth, both on sets and in 406 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:18,100 sets are easier to measure than offsets in terms of the real 407 00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:20,500 carbon abatement. So, as a consequence, they 408 00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:21,900 should have a higher market value. 409 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:24,600 In terms of the actual carbon whether or not that happens 410 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,800 remains to be seen, but that's my conceit. 411 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,500 I'm stuck at the dairy Lagoon, that's got to be the most 412 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,200 Disgusting term I've ever heard in my entire life. 413 00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:36,000 Welcome, to My World. You've ruined me. 414 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:37,600 Okay! Go ahead. 415 00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:41,000 I think one key distinction also in the offset Market just to 416 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,500 geek out a little bit. Is they treat an offset as one 417 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:49,800 ton of CO2 e, which means CO2, sequestered just as much as CO2 418 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,500 produced just as much as CO2 replaced. 419 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,200 They're all the same and when you treat them all the same, the 420 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,800 math, and the way to incentivize those, Actions gets a little bit 421 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,600 tricky. Whereas if you can now say if 422 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,700 you've emitted a ton of CO2, you're now responsible to pull 423 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:09,300 that ton of CO2 back. And the only way you can create 424 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:12,300 that is through putting it in some kind of a sink, whether 425 00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:16,100 that's a sink in reservoir, on the surface of the Earth, or a 426 00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:20,500 sink in the underneath the Earth and you're in set, which I 427 00:20:20,508 --> 00:20:24,200 really like that to distinguish. How Nora is looking around these 428 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,600 issues, we think of it, in terms of a ton as a ton, as a ton, but 429 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,500 there are different levels of risk around. 430 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,300 Impermanence and we can upgrade on how much CO2 has been stored 431 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:36,300 based on the data that goes through. 432 00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:38,200 All you look like you want to add in something? 433 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,800 Yeah I just think of those three categories that Julio explained 434 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,600 we're interested in the insects and the onsets but not the 435 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,900 offsets right? We don't want to use that word 436 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:49,500 other than on this podcast. Well okay well that was part of 437 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,700 the reason I fought to come up with these terms to describe 438 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:56,600 them because even though offsets have a terrific value for real 439 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,500 on the surface of the Earth in people's lives, it's not the 440 00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:01,300 Thing is what we do in carbon removal. 441 00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:03,700 You mean like the co-benefits are actually the primary benefit 442 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,500 sometimes and it's part of the reason why people invest in it. 443 00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:09,600 They actually want to provide energy access to people around 444 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,000 the world or they want to sustain biodiversity in at-risk. 445 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,800 Ecosystems all of, that's great but the carbon accounting of 446 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,800 those is fraught. And oftentimes, it's not clear 447 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,000 there's any carbon benefit at all. 448 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,500 So I wanted to create sort of a clear distinction between these 449 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:28,600 things specifically so that investors in their own minds 450 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,900 could decide what it is, they They wanted because right now, 451 00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:32,700 the stuffs all tossed together in a heap. 452 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:37,200 And if you would rather have a red Lego or a blue Lego or white 453 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,200 Lego, you know, you couldn't do that in the existing Market, 454 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,000 actually have to call them different things, call them out, 455 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:46,500 and then create mechanisms by which those transactions can 456 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,300 happen. And what's interesting is the 457 00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:52,400 carbon Traders are starting to get into this space, so groups, 458 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,000 like, ACL, or gold standard, or any of these carbon certifiers 459 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,400 are starting to differentiate their products Just a little bit 460 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,200 and that's a step in the right direction. 461 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,600 We should do this too, because whenever we explain this to a 462 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,400 new person, we always get into this offset game because it's 463 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,200 the only point of reference anyone ever has for this and it 464 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,300 is incorrect or isn't really what we're focusing on. 465 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:14,200 So we use this term and then have to like immediately 466 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,100 undermine it. We just start using this 467 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:19,300 terminology or something very similar in sets and on sets here 468 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:23,000 physicist and you've take that back, you are at rest, I'm a 469 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,600 geology. All training, excuse me, I 470 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,600 didn't do my homework then for some reason, I thought. 471 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,300 Okay, mr. Geologist well, so So, and you 472 00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:34,700 thought a lot about ways to store carbon when you were the 473 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,900 podesta, the principal Deputy assistant secretary pedis, he 474 00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:42,500 does excuse you, and you mentioned one technology that 475 00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:46,300 you like, which is in Reykjavik, which climb works is using, and 476 00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:48,800 you ought started talking about carbon capture and storage, 477 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,900 which I think there's a lot of missed comprehension around her, 478 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:54,800 not understanding of what that even means or how that works. 479 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,300 Could you kind of go into the Technologies a little bit on CCS 480 00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,400 what's carbon capture and Storage? 481 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,500 What cc us? If the carbon goes back out into 482 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:04,400 the atmosphere, is that still carbon wrangling? 483 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,900 It does it help a little bit, does it get us somewhere? 484 00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:09,300 So it is carbon wrangling but again all Impact that for you. 485 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:12,400 So I follow the terminology in the sensibility of Bill 486 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,500 McDonough who is a great thinker in a great designer. 487 00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:18,200 He's an architect, he helped design the International Space 488 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,200 Station. He built all of these sort of 489 00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,400 buildings that are covered with trees and green roofs. 490 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,500 He's just a great great thinker in a great guy and he cares 491 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,300 about language a lot and he wrote a paper. 492 00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:31,700 About two years ago where he said, which is called. 493 00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:34,300 Carbon is not the enemy, it's published in nature and he 494 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:36,200 basically said there's three different things and you should 495 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:37,500 think about them as different things. 496 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:40,900 One of them is get the fugitive emissions stuff that shouldn't 497 00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:43,600 be in the atmosphere stop doing that so I consider carbon 498 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,900 wrangling not just to be carbon capture and storage where you 499 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:48,700 capture from a point source and prevent that CO2 from heading to 500 00:23:48,708 --> 00:23:51,300 the atmosphere and then sort of storing it underground 501 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:53,300 indefinitely. But I also think about things 502 00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:56,600 like Energy Efficiency and conservation or also unadmitted. 503 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,200 They're not admitting what would normally be going into the 504 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,700 atmosphere? That's going after the fugitive 505 00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:02,500 emissions. He then says, we need to create 506 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:04,800 a circular economy in the atmosphere. 507 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:07,100 And the same way that we recycle all these other sort of things, 508 00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:09,500 we should be recycling carbon in the atmosphere to. 509 00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,300 So if you take CO2 out of the atmosphere and turn it into a 510 00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:16,000 fuel and then that fuel is used in the CO2, goes back in the 511 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,000 atmosphere. That's the circular economy and 512 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,000 we do that a little bit. Now with things like ethanol and 513 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 so forth. But he posited and I am working 514 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,200 on a much more robust transaction where you're using 515 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,900 devices to pulse it. CO2 out of the air using other 516 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,000 devices to upgrade them into fuels. 517 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,400 And then that actually is much closer to sort of a truly carbon 518 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,400 neutral fuel cycle and groups like The International Energy 519 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,600 agency of assess how much fuel that ultimately displaces in the 520 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,800 market, not surprisingly, pretty much all the oil and gas majors 521 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,400 are working on this. They're working on the CO2 to 522 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,200 fuel conversion piece because they sell feels. 523 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,200 And if they could have a truly decarbonized fuel, even to sell 524 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,000 at a premium, they be interested. 525 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,300 And so most of them have in-house R&D programs, many of 526 00:24:58,308 --> 00:25:01,700 them have For acquired a stake or equity, and handful of these 527 00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:03,000 companies. So there's interesting stuff, 528 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:07,000 the third is the strict carbon removal its restoration, pulling 529 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,100 CO2 out of the air and oceans and putting it back into the 530 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:13,800 Earth's surface or the Deep subsurface where it belongs. 531 00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:17,200 So it's repatriating that carbon you're not doing it for the 532 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,300 purpose of making a product you're doing for the purpose of 533 00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:23,100 just keeping it out of the air and oceans but there's a handful 534 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:25,200 of uses that actually do. Keep it out of the air and 535 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,000 oceans and you can create a value product. 536 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,300 Concrete is one of the most obvious example suppose. 537 00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:30,800 CO2 out of the air, turn it into concrete. 538 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,800 It's going to be around for a while concrete. 539 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,000 Last, we got 2,000 year old concrete, we got 5000 year old 540 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,400 concrete, like we know that the stuff can and does stay around. 541 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,400 And in fact the concrete is made from CO2 or cured with CO2 is 542 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,500 actually better. Concrete is heavier it, last 543 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:49,600 longer it's stronger. It is less prone to corrosion, 544 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,300 all these kinds of things. You can also turn carbon dioxide 545 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:55,100 into things that carbon nanotubes Plastics Carbon 546 00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:57,100 Composites, which are durable carbon. 547 00:25:57,100 --> 00:25:59,300 And that carbon also lasts a very long time. 548 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,600 So, it act both in the context of carbon removal and 549 00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:08,000 essentially, some long-lived repository or storage of carbon 550 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,100 in something like a tire, or a building or some other thing. 551 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,800 So who lie, you've brought up a number of great Pathways to do 552 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,900 carbon wrangling. I want to pick up on the last 553 00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:21,300 one that you just talked about, which is producing carbon 554 00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,500 nanotubes. So here, you're saying that you 555 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:28,000 can take a pollution as a feedstock and turn it into a 556 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,000 valuable product that will Replace something which was 557 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,300 otherwise carbon-intensive and it's a better product to 558 00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:36,700 Stronger product and the world should just use it. 559 00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:38,100 That brings to mind two questions. 560 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,900 One, why aren't we doing that today? 561 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,600 If it's such a good idea and two is that truly better for the 562 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,300 environment or are you doing certain energy calculations 563 00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:51,100 outside of the full lifecycle accounting that might make it 564 00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:53,300 look worse than it actually is and I3? 565 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:56,700 What is a nanotube, what it is? This is this is an obscure Tech 566 00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:59,800 terminology. It's not that obscure its In a 567 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,100 Boeing 787 Dreamliner is made of Carbon Composites. 568 00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,400 And carbon, nanotubes the thing is that carbon nanotubes 569 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,000 actually sell for pretty high price to sell for between 20,000 570 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,000 and 100,000 dollars a ton. So you can make the stuff out of 571 00:27:11,008 --> 00:27:13,100 carbon dioxide. Look, you got a pretty valuable 572 00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:15,300 product to sell. You asked a lot of stuff so let 573 00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:17,700 me try to go after it for starters. 574 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,200 If you're really doing this for climate benefit, and as far as 575 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,600 I'm concerned, you got to be doing it for climate benefit. 576 00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:26,300 Then you need to do what's called life cycle analysis. 577 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:29,300 You have to show that you're actually being that. 578 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Carbon negative or much, much lower. 579 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,400 In its footprint leading to carbon negative and that 580 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,600 requires some analysis, some scholarships, some work, the 581 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,900 groups, around the world that do this. 582 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:42,500 Now are just woke, they are just starting to do this work for 583 00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:45,700 real in terms of assessing and understanding what the real life 584 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:48,800 cycle looks like for all this stuff and if you don't have that 585 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,300 easy to throw brickbats at it and just it was just really a 586 00:27:51,308 --> 00:27:52,800 different. But what's also interesting is 587 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,200 we have moved into an age of global energy, abundance every 588 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,000 year you can buy more clean energy for a buck Here you can 589 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,300 buy more Renewable Power. There's better efficiency. 590 00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:06,000 All these things you're getting more productivity and more 591 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,900 energy bang for the buck every single year. 592 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:11,100 That abundance is what's going to drive this new carbon economy 593 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,200 in which your harnessing this abundant distributed clean 594 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,500 energy, and using it for the purpose of manufacturing, new 595 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:20,300 stuff, ideally, with the carbon negative footprint. 596 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,500 And the reason why you haven't done that so far, it's sort of 597 00:28:22,508 --> 00:28:24,300 two things. One, the technology is actually 598 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,400 evolved very recently only over the past couple of years, do 599 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,900 these devices actually exist in Work and the companies will 600 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:34,100 offer you something with a guarantee and you know, a price 601 00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:36,100 you couldn't do that. Five years ago, just wasn't an 602 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:38,100 option. Thankfully, again, the second 603 00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:40,500 best time to start a tree is now a lot of these guys planted 604 00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:42,700 their trees 5 to 10 years ago. A lot of these companies got 605 00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:45,900 busy a while ago and have been working in this space to develop 606 00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:48,900 products and develop offerings and all these kinds of things. 607 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,100 But the other thing is now that the Paris agreement signed now, 608 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:55,600 the climate math is obvious now that we got to start doing these 609 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,200 things, there is a potential market value, which has not yet 610 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,300 been CEST. And that's where a lot of 611 00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:03,900 companies are going to either succeed or brake their Spears. 612 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,200 They're going to see whether or not there's enough market pulled 613 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,400 for this, in the case of something like cement, that's a 614 00:29:09,408 --> 00:29:11,900 big Market. We move 55 billion, tons of 615 00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:15,100 concrete, every year is a huge mass of stuff. 616 00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:18,200 If you can get any amount of CO2 into that, like that actually 617 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,400 can deliver Giga, tons of abatement. 618 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,200 And the case of something like carbon fiber is exact opposite 619 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,800 super high value product. Super small volumes, you're not 620 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,200 going to save the Earth by creating carbon fiber. 621 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,200 At least not today but if you can get the price low enough, if 622 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,800 you can get it below, 20,000 dollars or time down to ten 623 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,100 thousand dollars a ton of five thousand dollars a ton. 624 00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:39,800 At that point, you can start swapping it in for other stuff. 625 00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:42,400 Instead of making your car out of steel, you can properly, 626 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,300 think about making it out of carbon fiber, you can throw 627 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:47,300 certain think about your being your building out of carbon 628 00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:49,800 fiber and it will change the landscape of architectures 629 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,200 someday in the future. All these things are out there 630 00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:56,300 and for me the reason I do what I do the way I do it is that the 631 00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:59,300 technology always gets better, the technology. 632 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,900 It always gets better. Hear it say it with me brother 633 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:06,800 the technology gets better preach, right? 634 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,000 So a solar panel now is thousands of times more 635 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,900 efficient than a tree. It just is it's better at energy 636 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:15,800 conversion because it doesn't have to do things like reproduce 637 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,700 itself or transpire oxygen doesn't have to do those. 638 00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:20,800 Things are fall down in the forest and not tell anyone about 639 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,800 it precisely. So these boxes that capture CO2 640 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,900 from the atmosphere that companies like climate Works. 641 00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:30,500 Put out those, do the work of And trees today. 642 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,000 Like I can't plant it for nothing and grow it for nothing. 643 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,600 It cost money to build and so forth, but it doesn't work of 644 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,800 eight thousand trees today. That's just going to get better 645 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,100 in the same way. There's a company here in the 646 00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:42,900 Bay Area called Opus 12. It's one of a bunch of companies 647 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:47,100 that turns CO2 into stuff, they have a suitcase sized, reverse 648 00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,900 fuel, cell stack that suitcase does 32,000 trees worth of work 649 00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:53,800 in that suitcase. It's just got much higher energy 650 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,400 density, much higher performance and it's not a knock on trees. 651 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,900 Trees are great. We love trees. 652 00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:03,100 If you want to get into the business of scaling up and doing 653 00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:06,400 this as a company, or as an Enterprise, or entering a market 654 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,700 or something like that, you can't wait 60 years for a tree 655 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,300 to grow. You can do it today much more 656 00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:15,200 efficiency already with devices that exist and those devices are 657 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,900 just going to get cheaper. They're going to improve their 658 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:21,400 performance and they're going to create more options where people 659 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,800 can invest. So you're talking about 660 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,200 suitcases and boxes and I really like those size of units because 661 00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:32,200 what it tells me is it's not going to cost me all that much 662 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,500 on the capital expenditure side to make the first one, which 663 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:37,400 means to make the next one. I can make it cheaper. 664 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,100 In the next one after that I can make it cheaper. 665 00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:42,500 And then we're suddenly talking about cost curves and economies 666 00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:46,000 of scale and mass production where instead of building a 667 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,600 large industrial plant your building something that's 668 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,900 modular and can scale much more quickly. 669 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,100 And one of the thoughts that came from old advisor, Klaus 670 00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:59,300 lackner is to think about putting units in shipping. 671 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,800 Containers because that enables units to go anywhere and be 672 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,400 mass-produced and go around the world. 673 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,400 Is that kind of what you're talking about and costs come 674 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,500 down or is yeah exactly. And you know classes 2009 paper 675 00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,200 on modular. Chemical conversion. 676 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,800 Technology is fabulous. It's a classic and part of the 677 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,900 reason it's so great. Is it showed that the cost 678 00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:22,000 curves for economies of scale in mass production are exactly the 679 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,800 same? I mean, exactly the same as the 680 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,300 cost curves for physical scale up. 681 00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:29,200 And many times people thought, the only way to get cost, 682 00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:31,800 Reductions was to physically, increase your skill, bigger and 683 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,500 bigger until you had this. Mammoth IG farben, kind of plant 684 00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:37,500 and the chemicals industry kind of did that forever and it 685 00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:39,800 worked really well for them. But in fact, mass production 686 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,300 works just as well. There's a reason we don't drive 687 00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,000 around in cars that hold 10,000 people in them. 688 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,500 It's like at some point or another like it doesn't work for 689 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:52,300 everything and a combination of containerization and people 690 00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:54,000 shipping stuff in containers all over the world. 691 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,700 In that whole ecosystem is built with that plus things like 3D 692 00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:00,900 printing and modular man. Production of all kinds of 693 00:33:00,908 --> 00:33:03,600 stuff. Had people reimagining, this 694 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,200 whole Enterprise. So now in fact, it is entirely 695 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,400 where this industry is the carbon capture industry. 696 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,700 The CO2 use industry, carbon removal industry, pretty much. 697 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,900 Everybody is starting with a hey, we got to go modular and 698 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:18,900 the advantage that has is twofold one. 699 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,800 It means that the rate at which you innovate is high, just like 700 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,700 the rate of innovation in wind and solar. 701 00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:27,200 It was high because you could build a little device and test 702 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,000 it out. And so the innovation, Rate in 703 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,900 carbon Ville, these days is very fast on that same born modular 704 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:36,400 kind of sensibility. The other thing you pointed to, 705 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,700 you don't actually have to write a billion dollar check to figure 706 00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:40,300 out whether your idea works or not. 707 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,700 You can get into that game for a much smaller Capital which means 708 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:46,700 again, the rate of innovation, the acceleration to Market is 709 00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:51,300 much faster for these Technologies and that opens a 710 00:33:51,308 --> 00:33:53,800 whole Vista that we have only begun to imagine. 711 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,900 You can actually imagine now a farmer in Edmonton Alberta pull 712 00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,600 in CO2 out of the air. Having a natural gas pipeline or 713 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,300 power pipeline going to their house, turn in that carbon 714 00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:05,900 dioxide into fertilizer for their Farm. 715 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,699 Turning into plastic printing out their dinner plates. 716 00:34:08,699 --> 00:34:11,699 So the 3D printer in the backyard and for that matter, 717 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,199 doing the soil carbon farming that they could do on their land 718 00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:18,300 and then transacting all of that through the blockchain, you can 719 00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:21,000 actually imagine that now and it's not nuts. 720 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:24,300 Yeah, it's actually entirely within the scope of where we 721 00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:28,600 could be technologically in societally within 10, 15 years 722 00:34:28,699 --> 00:34:31,000 and that It is one of the reasons I get up in the morning 723 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,699 is to make that transaction happen. 724 00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:36,000 And is that the new carbon economy, the new carbon economy 725 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,300 is all about doing combination of carbon removal and carbon to 726 00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:41,900 value. And sometimes that value is you 727 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:44,199 make carbon nanotubes and you sell them, imagine a new 728 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,600 manufacturing base that's distributed and creates jobs 729 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:48,800 that are local and stuff like that. 730 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,199 Using that kind of new carbon economy sensibility. 731 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,500 But it also I think is things like increased Farm yields by 732 00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:57,000 putting soil and carbon and getting better growth. 733 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,700 It is things like monetize. Being a forestation in a way in 734 00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:04,400 which ecosystem services and natural capital or things that 735 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,200 can be cashed in. And those are also things that 736 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,800 other people are working. And we're just starting to see 737 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,600 the edge of that. But if you're not actually 738 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,600 adding real commercial value to the world, it's much harder to 739 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,000 make your go of it. Even in the context of carbon 740 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,000 capture and storage, which is fundamentally about reducing 741 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,600 carbon fluxes to the environment. 742 00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:23,900 You can imagine companies in the future that serve a role like 743 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:26,300 Waste Management. Waste management is a huge 744 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:28,900 Fortune, 500 company, all they do is called around garbage and 745 00:35:28,900 --> 00:35:31,400 they An environmental service to people for a price. 746 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,500 So there will be companies that do that as well. 747 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,300 And the company is that figure out how to do that fast and 748 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,200 cheap and robustly where they can do the carbon accounting for 749 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,600 real. Those guys are going to make it 750 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,400 in the market. That's what we would like Nori 751 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,600 to eventually be too, is just a prototype that people can copy 752 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,400 for ecosystem services in an open source kind of way like, 753 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,800 Nori isn't just about Karma removal. 754 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,900 I think you could use a lot of this technology for other 755 00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:56,800 ecosystem services, but I think we're wrapping it up now. 756 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,000 I think we're getting pretty close to the end. 757 00:35:59,000 --> 00:35:59,700 Well. We got here. 758 00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:04,300 You have a rodeo at the dairy Lagoon to get to so we can call 759 00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:05,500 it. Thanks for being with us Julio 760 00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:06,900 that was very informative and fun. 761 00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:09,200 My pleasure. Thank you guys for having me and 762 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,800 best of luck with your exceptional new Enterprise. 763 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:12,500 Thank you.