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Hey, thanks for listening. 
This is Ross Kenyon. 

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I'm the host of Reversing 
Climate Change, the podcast you 

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are listening to right at this 
very moment. 

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Before we get into the bulk of 
today's show, I'd love to tell 

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you about our sponsors, Absolute
Climate and Philip Lee LLP. 

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I've made great radio with both.
Of them, they should be familiar

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to you if you listen to this 
show. 

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But I want to tell you about why
you should learn a little bit 

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more. 
The first sponsor is Absolute 

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Climate. 
I did a show with their founder 

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Peter Miner few months back and 
a lot of people love that show. 

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I was asking a question of can 
registries design their own 

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methodologies for carbon markets
without it being a conflict of 

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interest? 
An absolute climate's thesis is 

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no, they shouldn't be in the 
business of doing that. 

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We. 
Actually need to. 

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Disintegrate functionality 
within carbon markets even 

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further. 
They are literally the only 

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independent standards body for 
carbon removal that exists. 

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Their name is very well chosen. 
I. 

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Think they are some of the most 
aggressively idealistic people 

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within carbon removal. 
It's come up on reversing 

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climate change so many times 
about how and why there's 

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tension between commercial teams
and science teams within carbon 

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markets. 
There's some fundamental tension

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between the rules of running a 
business, or I should say the 

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rules of running a profitable 
business is maybe a better way 

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to put that and climate impact. 
And I think Absolute is one of 

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those companies that, at least 
from my experience of what I 

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know of them over there, I think
they're going to be some of the 

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staunchest holdouts. 
Just trying to make sure that 

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there can be a justified true 
belief that a ton purchase is a 

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ton truly removed. 
They're betting big on not 

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compromising. 
It's a bold strategy. 

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I respect the absolute hell out 
of that. 

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Absolute is very much doing 
things their own way and they 

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stand out to me and I will never
mistake them in a lineup. 

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Go check them out. 
I really am endlessly fascinated

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by what they're doing, and 
that's also true of our other 

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sponsor, Philip Lee LLP. 
In fact, I told him to pitch me 

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on some weirder legal shows. 
I really like doing shows about 

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the law. 
I think the law is such a 

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fascinating. 
Part of our. 

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Shared social life, It 
structures so much of it. 

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It's badly understood by most 
people. 

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Just structuring deals within 
carbon removal is hard. 

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I'm talking grown up deals here,
like when you're trying to put 

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together an enormous package, 
complicated structuring, a lot 

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of money, changing hands. 
The stakes are high. 

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You really do need a good 
lawyer. 

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I'm sorry to tell you that if 
you are a startup out there in 

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carbon removal, you're going to 
probably pay a fair amount of 

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money to lawyers. 
There's just no way around it. 

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Your choice is basically do you 
get a bad lawyer or a good 

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lawyer? 
One really cool thing I can say 

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on Philip Lee LL PS behalf, 
well, one, Ryan Covington and I 

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did a very fun show about how 
basically no one except for an 

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elite few really know what 
bankability and project finance 

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even mean. 
And he lays it out very clearly,

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if you'd like to go listen to 
that. 

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Show it's awesome and. 
It's LinkedIn, the show notes, 

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and also we end up talking about
Ernest Hemingway for him not. 

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To. 
So it keeps with the tradition. 

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Of reversing climate change, one
also really cool thing. 

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Is that they just. 
Won Environmental Finances VCM 

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Law Firm of the year. 
They put it three years in a 

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row, 2023-2024 and 2025. 
It's the only award for legal 

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teams operating in the VCM and 
they have offices in the US, 

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Europe and the UK. 
You should check out Philip Lee 

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LLP. 
Thank you from the bottom of my 

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heart for listening to this and 
thank you to our sponsors. 

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You really make this so that 
it's something that in a busy 

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life with lots of competing 
priorities, I'm able to keep 

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coming back and making more, 
reversing climate change. 

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Thanks so much for what you do. 
And now here is the show. 

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Hey, thank you. 
So much for listening to 

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Reversing Climate change. 
I'm the host, Ross Kenyon. 

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I'm a climate tech and carbon 
removal entrepreneur. 

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Today I have someone on that. 
If you work in carbon removal, 

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essentially needs no 
introduction. 

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So I won't belabor it too long 
before I get to today's guest. 

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If you could please smash that 
like button, as they say on 

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YouTube, subscribe to the show. 
If you're not already 

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subscribed, open up your podcast
app right now and give it a full

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rating in Apple Podcast where 
you can also write a quick 

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review. 
Something really simple, really 

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quick. 
Write it up right now, take you 

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30 seconds and is so helpful to 
me and would be so appreciated. 

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Also, five stars and Spotify is 
also very useful. 

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If you use some other app or 
YouTube or something else, a 

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great rating review goes a long 
way. 

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This week's episode likely has 
some bonus content that is 

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available for paid subscribers. 
For $5 a month, you can get 

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access to bonus content. 
And also the ads that I don't 

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read myself are removed from the
show for a more straightforward 

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listening experience. 
And thanks so much for your 

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support. 
So anyways, today's guest, 

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Sebastian Manhart. 
If you hang in any carbon 

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removal or carbon removal 
adjacent spaces, you've 

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certainly seen Seb or Basties, 
as I'm told that he is often 

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called Bastie by the Germans, 
Seb by the Americans. 

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I'm just going to call him Ian, 
you know, like, I'm going to go 

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my own way on that one. 
I knew I wanted to have them on 

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for a long time, but only want 
to do a show when I could think 

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of an angle that would be a 
little bit different. 

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Like whenever I have guests on 
this show, especially those who 

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have a career being 
communicators, they often have 

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the things that they communicate
about. 

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And many times they have a 
spiel. 

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And some of the shows I'm least 
proud of on the show are the 

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ones that end up with a guest 
inside of their spiel that I 

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can't break them out of. 
So if you listen to shows I've 

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done with celebrities or people 
who have publicists, I'm often 

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trying to find ways to throw 
them curveballs so that we can 

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be more spontaneous, more open. 
And I think that leads to a much

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better listening experience. 
That's why I finally had this 

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with Sebastian. 
Sebastian had his first kid 

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recently, and we use it as a way
of getting into some of the 

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difficult feelings of caring 
about climate and working on 

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climate in a world in which many
of the trends are troubling and 

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what it means to be a parent 
inside of the circumstances, I 

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get Sebastian. 
Sebastian is a very effective 

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user of social media. 
I get some advice. 

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I get to share some of my. 
Some of the difficult. 

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Feelings of being a social media
user produces where? 

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You kind of have to use it. 
You can't really opt out of it 

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at this point without taking 
some serious sacrifice. 

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OK. 
And and so if you don't know who

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Sebastian is, Sebastian is 
behind so many things in carbon 

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removal. 
He's a senior policy advisor at 

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Carbon Future. 
She's a major carbon removal 

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marketplace. 
He Co founded Cdr jobs, which is

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the carbon removal dedicated 
jobs board. 

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I described him during the 
episode as a sort of Johnny 

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Appleseed of trade organizations
for carbon removal. 

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So many of the trade 
organizations in different 

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geographies around the planet 
have a Sebastian thumbprint on 

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them. 
He's the Co host of Cdr Policy 

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Scoop with Evitama. 
So if you want to have very 

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regular updates on what's 
happening in the world of Cdr 

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policy, it's also more than 
that. 

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But their main hook is to focus 
on policy. 

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Great show, very effective, very
short link to all those things 

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are in the show notes. 
Sebastian, I'm so sorry. 

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Am I leaving anything out about 
your very active carbon removal 

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career? 
There's a bunch of other things.

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You can you can cruise around on
this LinkedIn if you really 

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want. 
Oh the Giga 10, which is a great

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newsletter that updates one on a
monthly basis of the 10 biggest 

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stories of Sebastian sees it 
from the world of carbon removal

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and he also does a nice video 
podcast with Layla Connors. 

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Layla is the founder of Tree 
Media and environmental 

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documentary Legend. 
Her latest film, Legion 44, 

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features so many alumni of this 
podcast because it's all about 

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the world of carbon removal, so.
They do a little video podcast. 

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Version of Giga 10 every month 
to that I would recommend in any

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case the show we are ready to 
begin your properly. 

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Contextualized, you're ready to 
listen. 

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Now, thanks so much for your 
time. 

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Have a wonderful day, enjoy the 
show, share with your friends. 

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By the way, post about it if you
like it. 

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And here it is. 
Hey, Sebastian. 

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Hey, Ross, this is this is 
another. 

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And you're one of the the people
I listen whose voice I'd 

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probably listen to most. 
So yeah, finally here talking to

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you. 
Likewise, but it's the case with

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people that have a lot to say. 
And you and I both have a lot to

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say that you you always want to 
find a way to invite people in 

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that would give them something 
new. 

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Because I feel like they like 
when someone asked me to be on 

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their podcast, I'm like, don't 
you already know what I'm going 

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to say about some stuff? 
Like, do I need to be somewhere 

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else? 
And maybe you have a little bit 

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of that inside of you too. 
You power a lot of ground like 

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you're you because you you do 
episodes on things in a lot of 

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different areas. 
So yeah, I've heard you talk 

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about a lot of things already. 
Yes, I always, my line for this 

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is always for better or for 
worse, but I think that's what I

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am good at insofar as I am good 
at a specific thing. 

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I like the synthesis. 
I like being broad and 

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connecting new things. 
I'm not always the person that 

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you want with the incredible 
amount of depth on a single 

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thing. 
And I think there's someone else

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that you should ask for those 
kinds of questions. 

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And I'm a much better question 
asker than an answer giver, I 

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think in general. 
So test. 

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That today. 
Oh crap. 

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Yeah, get this plan going. 
First of all, am I cool enough 

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to call you Seb? 
I hear people say call you Seb 

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by the way, so this is. 
This is a good starting point. 

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It's finally I can clear the air
on this. 

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I've never actually done this. 
And it's really funny. 

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Nobody ever called me Seb until 
I had my first American 

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colleagues. 
And there's a thing where a lot 

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of Americans, they, they just 
default to send before they even

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know me. 
Like my, my shorthandle is 

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actually busty in Germany. 
So it's Sebastian and Busty, but

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yeah, I go by Seb with most 
people these days. 

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But yeah, it's Sebastian or 
Basti usually. 

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Wow, That's just as a result of 
you doing more work with 

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Americans. 
It sounds like that's what 

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happened. 
It's. 

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It's honestly like it's an, it's
an American thing. 

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Europeans, they never, they say 
Sebastian, they never say Seb. 

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And then I meet an American for 
the first time. 

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They're like, hey, Seb. 
And I'm like why? 

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I don't, I don't like changing 
of you as more American because 

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in in my mind you've got a 
Tyrolean hat on. 

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Like that's like in my mind, 
like you are just a Tyrolean. 

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OK, you're really letting me 
clear up the air on a lot of 

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things now, because this is 
another thing that people can't 

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say. 
I always say I'm Germany, 

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Italian, right? 
And I live in the mountains in 

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Italy, and I have a very German 
name. 

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And for those people who are a 
bit more vested in history, they

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might know that there's a part 
of Italy that's German speaking,

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which is South Tyrol, which is 
probably what you're referring 

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to. 
So when people see my name and 

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they're like, I'm Italian, 
they're like, yeah, enjoy S 

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Tyrol. 
How is it in South Tyrol? 

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And this really stings because 
the Dolomites where I'm from, 

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which are these this beautiful 
mountain range. 2/3 of it. 

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And the Italian speaking part 
from which I'm actually from, 

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which is Veneto and 1/3 is in 
South Tyrol, and all the big 

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mountains, all the beautiful 
mountains, I'm the Italian 

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speaking side. 
But the marketing of the German 

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00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,600
speaking side is much better. 
So everyone thinks that all the 

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great mountains, I'm the German 
speaking side and everyone 

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assumes that I live there, but 
I'm not. 

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I'm from the Italian speaking 
side. 

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00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,120
Oh man, we're 3 1/2 minutes in. 
We've already. 

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I you you do reveal a fair 
amount about yourself online. 

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00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,320
I feel like you do try to 
communicate about your personal 

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00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,840
life and like you share that you
recently became a father. 

235
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,240
Which is it? 
Your first child? 

236
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,480
First time. 
First human. 

237
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:58,480
Yeah, I have a dog that I've had
for 10 years and that was a big 

238
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,360
step for me at the time, but 
it's nothing compared to having 

239
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,320
a kid. 
So yeah, first time Dad. 

240
00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:08,280
You saved yourself there because
parents hate when people say 

241
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,560
that about dogs. 
I felt I find that to be like 

242
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one of those universally like, 
oh, I have a fur baby so I kind 

243
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,360
of know what it's like. 
And parents are like, you have 

244
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,920
no idea. 
You don't even know what you're 

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00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,280
so ignorant. 
There's no comparing I. 

246
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,280
Thought there would be no no. 
Yeah. 

247
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,440
I kind of want to get into that 
with you because I think if you 

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00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:31,960
are in carbon removal, obviously
we see your stuff all the time. 

249
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,720
You're very plugged into policy,
but you also are a business 

250
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,800
person. 
You're you're in the back end of

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00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,120
like basically every Trade 
Organization that exists. 

252
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,560
I think it has your thumbprint 
on it somehow. 

253
00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:43,680
You're just like a. 
Johnny, I like trade 

254
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,520
association. 
I like them. 

255
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:47,200
You like them? 
Yeah. 

256
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,520
It's like your main model for 
getting things done. 

257
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,120
I want to find some, like, new 
ways to understand you and what 

258
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,440
you're thinking about that are 
maybe outside of what we see 

259
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,120
every day. 
I wanted this to be a Christmas 

260
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,280
show and I wanted it to be with 
ugly Christmas sweaters on, but 

261
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,480
I just did not have. 
Should have. 

262
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,040
Told me I have some great ones. 
I have some that even used to 

263
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,560
have LEDs that kind of blink. 
Unfortunately they got they 

264
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:10,640
broke at some point, but I've 
got some good Christmas 

265
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,440
sweaters. 
Send me a picture of of you in 

266
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,120
one and I'll make it the the 
image for the. 

267
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,240
Show. 
And so we will. 

268
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,200
Not deny the people what they 
want. 

269
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,520
They want this from you. 
Sebastian, that's true. 

270
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,120
We can make that happen. 
OK, Yeah. 

271
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,560
I want to see. 
I want to just see a little bit 

272
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:31,040
more inside what your life's 
actually like because you are 

273
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,280
someone who makes things happen 
in carbon removal. 

274
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,920
But you're also more than that. 
And I know that you're also 

275
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,600
watching this space with a fair 
amount of trepidation, like 

276
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,200
probably everyone else is, and 
trying to make sense of it. 

277
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:45,560
You have a child. 
Having a child, I think is an 

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00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:48,160
inherently optimistic act to 
some extent. 

279
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,200
And yet the the world is feeling
not so good to us. 

280
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,160
I think I've seen you bemoan the
potential death or lacuna in 

281
00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,640
climate multilateralism that has
me very spooked internationally.

282
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,200
I don't know. 
How do you make sense of this 

283
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,880
hope, despair, parenthood Nexus 
that I think a lot of people are

284
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,440
probably in? 
It's a really tough one and I I 

285
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,880
know that you you come with this
quite a lot in your episode as 

286
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,200
well. 
I know that you're very as 

287
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,440
anyone in the space should be, 
right, thinking about both sides

288
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,520
and, and personally, it's been a
rough year. 

289
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,200
I mean, honestly, I also, I, I, 
you know, I haven't used letter 

290
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,480
word recap every month, the Giga
10 and the last couple of months

291
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,520
it's just been I tried to put in
some nice wins as well, But boy,

292
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,760
I've been sharing stuff that's 
just functioned the gut after 

293
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,040
punching the gut. 
And and that's just in Cdr. 

294
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,960
Once I look at climate more 
broadly, I mean, it's, you know,

295
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,960
if I look at the US, if I look 
at the world, if I look what's 

296
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,720
happening to my country, 
Germany, and there's a lot of 

297
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,920
stuff that I would never have 
dreamed years ago and not in a 

298
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,200
good way. 
And so there's that reality. 

299
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,960
And my way to deal with it in 
many ways is I have always been,

300
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,080
my therapist says I'm a a 
compulsive optimist and it's 

301
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,120
something that honestly drives 
some people mad. 

302
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,200
But it's kind of, it's helped me
a lot and it's helped me also in

303
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,640
this situation a lot because I'm
able to see all the negative 

304
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,200
stuff, but I'm able to kind of 
put it in the corner in my brain

305
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,920
and then focus on the good stuff
again and communicate that good 

306
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,400
stuff. 
And kind of hoping that by 

307
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,280
communicating the good stuff, 
we'll be able to generate 

308
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,000
momentum and get more good 
stuff. 

309
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,440
But it's tough, especially this 
year has probably been the 

310
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,520
toughest yet, at least for me. 
How's it been for you? 

311
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,600
Well, you listen to the show, so
it's been up and down. 

312
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,960
I, I find working in this space 
to be helpful. 

313
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,440
I think if I were more of an 
observer and not doing much, I 

314
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,600
think I would feel very 
disempowered and very scared. 

315
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,200
And part of me is very focused 
on where to move. 

316
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,560
Like, is there a safer place in 
the world to be to bet on for 

317
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,680
the coming decades for my family
and for myself? 

318
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,200
But when I'm working at carbon 
removal, I feel encouraged by 

319
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,200
the fact that I perceive I am 
making a difference. 

320
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,120
I feel like I'm making 
connections for people. 

321
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,880
This last month I made several 
what I think are very high 

322
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,520
impact introductions to people 
where I'm like this is a new 

323
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,720
business, this is a new 
partnership, this is a new idea.

324
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,560
And that stuff gives me hope. 
But if I if I wasn't working in 

325
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,880
this, I think I would start 
feeling like this is happening 

326
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,360
to me. 
And my job is for as a family 

327
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,560
man is to find safety. 
And I don't want to be in that 

328
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,680
small individual like kin kind 
of orientation. 

329
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,400
I want to be able to have the 
moral sphere expanded to have 

330
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,320
more and more people in the 
world as a whole taken into it. 

331
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,560
But when you do feel 
disempowered, I can feel it 

332
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,960
happening even in my own heart 
where I'm like, crap, now I'm 

333
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,360
becoming selfish and selfish in 
a non pejorative way. 

334
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,200
Selfish in a, your job is to 
take care of the people closest 

335
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,240
to you kind of provider mode. 
And that's, that's probably like

336
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,000
a reptilian brain, like as old 
as our brains get. 

337
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,680
And it's not helping us make the
best decisions for the world as 

338
00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,400
a whole. 
I don't want to think a lot. 

339
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,480
Of us have been like I, I 
identify with that and I think a

340
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,000
lot of us have been taking more 
of these decisions lately than 

341
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,839
we wish. 
And it, it sucks, right? 

342
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:16,640
Because you're spending very, 
yeah, money, time your brain on 

343
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,200
things that you thought you you 
don't need, that you should 

344
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,359
never have to think about. 
And yeah, that really sucks. 

345
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,920
Yeah, I feel that way too. 
But are you saying the Giga 10 

346
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,880
has been pessimistic? 
I mean, I, I really like those 

347
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:29,880
newsletters. 
I think they're very well 

348
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,800
organized and they're good and 
they're like great monthly 

349
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,160
recaps, but I don't perceive 
them as being, is that you being

350
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,720
pessimistic as an optimist? 
Because it doesn't even read 

351
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,840
that way. 
I just I must have. 

352
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,720
Happened like, OK, that that's 
like maybe one thing that was in

353
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,080
the Giga 10, but that's it. 
I can't even remember any other 

354
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,240
things. 
So literally just before this 

355
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,040
recording, I spoke to to Leila 
Commons. 

356
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,120
We do kind of a podcast video 
version of the Giga 10 once a 

357
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,280
month. 
And as we went through it, I 

358
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,200
realized I had kind of three 
really bad news in a row in it 

359
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,400
and that there were still a lot 
of good stuff in there. 

360
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,240
But but by the end of that third
one, when we discussed it, we 

361
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,280
were like, damn, this has been a
rough month. 

362
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,160
So I try overall, the way that I
like to look at it, a really 

363
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,080
good quote. 
I don't know who to attribute it

364
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,800
to, but is that what's important
are not headlines, but trend 

365
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,720
lines. 
And we tend to get stuck a lot 

366
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,200
in, in headlines because that's 
how our brain works. 

367
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,080
That's how newspapers work. 
That's how a lot of the 

368
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,800
information we, we, we get 
works. 

369
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,280
It's always headlines, 
headlines, headlines. 

370
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,800
And but it's really healthy to 
look at trend lines. 

371
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,640
And I love doing things like the
Gigaten because it allows me or 

372
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,880
yearly reviews and stuff, 
because it allows me to actually

373
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,720
take a step back and look at, 
OK, all the stuff is happening. 

374
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,880
I have all these headlines in my
head, but where is it going over

375
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,240
all? 
And when I look at that, we are 

376
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:43,880
going in the right direction, 
right? 

377
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,360
Like this is, this is what I 
perceive like both on the policy

378
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:50,160
front, on the, on the start up 
front on the, the, the 

379
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,080
deliveries when we're going in 
the right direction and what 1 

380
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,520
theme made. 
And this is an interesting one 

381
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,120
that gets me thinking more and 
more about my work is this year 

382
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:04,200
more than ever, I've seen the 
tailwinds in carbon removal come

383
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,600
from people that I really don't 
identify with really in the 

384
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,840
politics space. 
And this is really concerning 

385
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,880
and it creates kind of an 
ideological tension in me that 

386
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,040
I'm sure many feel. 
And what I'm talking about is a 

387
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,080
lot of the, the tailwind for Cdr
has come from people who are 

388
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,400
trying to lower climate 
emission. 

389
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,720
And there's a lot of, and Cdr 
has been used and is being used 

390
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:31,200
as we speak in countries that I 
worked in, in the exact way that

391
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,600
I always hoped it wouldn't be 
used, which is, you know, we 

392
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:36,800
kind of want to keep doing what 
we're doing. 

393
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,680
We're not going to take 
decarbonization too seriously. 

394
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,280
But look, here's Cdr and I feel 
really, really torn because on 

395
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:48,560
the one hand that's wrong. 
On the other hand, we are in 

396
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:53,200
such a fragile situation that 
we, I don't think we can afford 

397
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,760
to turn down the few governments
and policy makers that are 

398
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,160
trying to push Cdr. 
And so this is something that 

399
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,880
this year has really kind of, I,
I still don't know really how to

400
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,760
navigate that, but this is 
something that I'm very torn 

401
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,160
about and that until 2025, I 
didn't really encounter to this 

402
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,880
scale. 
Yeah. 

403
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,240
This is maybe governments saying
that they're making strategic 

404
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,560
investments or procurement in 
carbon removal to scale this up,

405
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,640
but they're slowing 
decarbonization at the same time

406
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,360
or something kind of like that. 
Is that what you're pointing to 

407
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,320
I? 
Mean that the most obvious 

408
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,920
example is if you just look what
happened 2 days ago in Europe, 

409
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,320
they agreed on a 90% emission 
reduction target for 2014, which

410
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,080
is great, but then they build in
5% international credits and 

411
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,560
this could be huge news for non 
European carbon removal, for 

412
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,560
global S carbon removal. 
This could be the biggest demand

413
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,960
side boost we're going to see in
the next couple of years. 

414
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,240
And but where's this coming 
from? 

415
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:49,320
This is not coming from 
increased ambition. 

416
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,640
This is coming from people who 
are hoping for cheap credits 

417
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,960
abroad to not have to do the job
at home. 

418
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,880
And you know, this is a good 
example where it's like lower 

419
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,000
ambition. 
Everyone agrees that it's lower 

420
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,680
ambition, but it might actually 
be really good news for carbon 

421
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,320
removal. 
And that's the tension that, 

422
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,240
yeah, I, I find quite hard to 
navigate. 

423
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,120
I always hate this with policy. 
I had this when the trade war 

424
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:14,920
stuff started probably close to 
a year ago at this point, where 

425
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,920
everyone I know that worked in 
anything that touched graphite, 

426
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,080
any critical mineral was just 
like, yes, we need to reassure 

427
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,640
everything. 
I'm like, you know, this is this

428
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,640
is leading to a a world that is 
not as not as friendly, right? 

429
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,120
Like overall, this is not a I'm 
glad it's good for you. 

430
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,040
I'm it's going to benefit you. 
That's great. 

431
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,880
But if you can do math. 
With it, yeah, so. 

432
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,480
Carbon removal Has one of these 
potentially corrupting or 

433
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:42,240
potentially myopia inducing kind
of moments now, Yeah, biochar in

434
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,800
the global SA lot of demand. 
That's great, but it also just 

435
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,920
means what we're not doing what 
we need to be doing. 

436
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,360
The main thing is 
decarbonization, right? 

437
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,120
That's the main show. 
And I'm really worried about 

438
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:54,680
doing more harm than good. 
And this is the other thing that

439
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,320
I find very tough. 
Take this international credits 

440
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,320
aspect. 
One option would be to just not 

441
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,840
take a stance or to push against
international credits, period. 

442
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,520
But obviously, if you want to 
see potential demand for carbon 

443
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,240
removal, you're going to push 
for international credits. 

444
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,880
What could happen very 
realistically is you push for 

445
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,560
international credits, but then 
you end up with no carbon 

446
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,560
removal and you just end up with
a ton of of cheap productions 

447
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,360
that don't do the job. 
And you've been part of that and

448
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:21,400
you've made that partially. 
Obviously I don't want to 

449
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,720
overestimate my own influence 
here, but you, you, you're part 

450
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,840
of something bad that has 
happened. 

451
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,400
And so that's the other thing 
that I'm, I increasingly see is 

452
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,600
that push and calm removal is 
often a bit of a gamble where if

453
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,320
it turns out the way you want, 
it'll be great. 

454
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,920
But there's a part where it 
won't turn out the way you want,

455
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:39,320
and it will actually be worse 
for the climate. 

456
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,560
Yeah, I know because you've been
advocating for global S 

457
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,320
inclusion and ETS integration in
Europe and carbon removal and 

458
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,040
like that's a, I'm also at heart
a free trade person. 

459
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,480
I think if we can go to places 
where it's cheap and that's 

460
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,800
helping on the global carbon 
budget like that's, that's good,

461
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,280
that's value for dollars. 
Like that's a good thing, but 

462
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,440
not if it results in for like a 
policy leakage kind of thing 

463
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,840
where it's like. 
Oh, this is actually just. 

464
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,880
On net, not doing what we want. 
I love that. 

465
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,600
I also love one of the recurring
themes of the show. 

466
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,880
I don't know if you've been 
listening long enough to it to 

467
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,840
have caught all of the 
references to it, but do you 

468
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,640
know the the literary device of 
the monkey paw? 

469
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,160
Do you know, have you ever heard
of me reference this? 

470
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,520
Maybe remind me? 
It shows up in countless horror 

471
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,200
fiction and and films, but it's 
usually when someone wishes for 

472
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,840
something and they get it, but 
it's not in the way that you 

473
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,040
want. 
Like Pet Sematary is a good 

474
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,960
example of the Stephen King book
and film where OK, if you just 

475
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,520
like bury your kid back in here,
it'll come back to life, but 

476
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,440
it's not your kid anymore. 
Like something happened in the 

477
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,280
grave and it's sure you talk, 
your kid is alive again, but 

478
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,120
it's not the same kid that went 
into the ground. 

479
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,200
It is dark. 
It's supposed to. 

480
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,920
It's a monkey paw. 
Like it's supposed to be dark. 

481
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,560
It's a horror literary device. 
But yeah, so you feel like you 

482
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,080
have some monkey paw dynamics 
here of just advocating for what

483
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,520
you think is good. 
People are like, they love what 

484
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,080
you're saying. 
They support it, and then it 

485
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,920
gets enacted in a way where 
you're horrified. 

486
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:01,640
Is that probably what's 
happening? 

487
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,600
Yeah. 
Wow. 

488
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:06,600
What's that? 
What should? 

489
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,360
We do, right? 
Like I'm I'm a person. 

490
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:12,240
I'm a very intuitive person and 
I realized that the best things 

491
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,560
in my life came when I, when I 
trusted my intuition. 

492
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,000
And I've, I've become very 
comfortable trusting my 

493
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,200
intuition, which sometimes 
really backfires, especially 

494
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,880
when you're like publishing a 
post that reaches 50 or 100,000 

495
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,680
people before thinking about it 
twice. 

496
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,400
And then you realize an hour 
later, I really shouldn't have 

497
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:31,560
done that. 
That happens too. 

498
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,360
But overall, it's a good modus 
operandi for me. 

499
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,760
And and so in this case, my 
intuition tells me like, we're 

500
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,400
already nowhere close to where 
we need to be, and we just need 

501
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,240
to push where we can. 
We need to be opportunistic. 

502
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,960
We need to get whatever we can. 
I just hope that in a few years 

503
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,800
we won't look back and be like, 
damn, that that turn we took 

504
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,960
there shouldn't have done that. 
But yeah, we shall see. 

505
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,880
I prioritize the gut and 
intuition very highly. 

506
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,520
I think people underrate it a 
lot and should use it more, 

507
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:06,760
although you shouldn't do it 
when you're hungry because then 

508
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,240
it's hard to tell like which 
signal is actually operating 

509
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,720
here. 
Like knowing when it's actually 

510
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,880
your intuition versus some other
bodily desire is a really 

511
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,400
important thing to know. 
How do you pair that with just 

512
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,640
your rational analysis though? 
Because I feel like a lot of 

513
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,520
your work is data-driven. 
It's very quantitative. 

514
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,480
It's policy. 
Policy is not a probably a good 

515
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,440
place for intuition. 
Although that being said, there 

516
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,720
are people who are like highly 
intuitive policy makers or 

517
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,400
visionary political leaders that
probably are not thinking from 

518
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,800
data, so maybe that's even a 
wrong supposition. 

519
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,200
What do you think? 
So a little back story here is 

520
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,960
that one of my most important 
early professional experience 

521
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,000
was I was a Co founder in a in a
tech startup and it was coming 

522
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,640
out of the University of 
Cambridge. 

523
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,520
I'd done a masters, all the 
other Co founders had done a PhD

524
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,320
and it was very kind of, you 
know, Cambridge grads startup 

525
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:56,480
and we did a lot of things 
great. 

526
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,040
We did a lot of things wrong, 
but one of our core values was 

527
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,400
RF, which was robust as fudge 
and and it and basically was the

528
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,080
opposite of intuition. 
It was any decision had to be 

529
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,800
backed up by really strong 
analysis and date. 

530
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,960
And at the beginning it felt 
really, really good because it 

531
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,320
gave me confident everything was
always you always had a 

532
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,240
rationale for every decision. 
And with the years I realized 

533
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,120
that it just really wasn't how I
worked and I ended like arguing 

534
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,160
with I was the COI ended up 
arguing with the CEO so many 

535
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,520
times. 
At some point I left after seven

536
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,160
years and, and, and since then, 
when I'm reflecting on that, I'm

537
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,880
like, OK, this was really not 
me. 

538
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,560
Like I, if I, if I was running a
company again, a bigger company,

539
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,800
I, I really wouldn't force every
decision to be data backed the 

540
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,400
way that it was there. 
And, and that I think, you know,

541
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,200
there's a time and place for 
data. 

542
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,280
And especially when you 
communicate a lot online, you, 

543
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,080
you do need to make sure that 
when you make strong statements,

544
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,320
you back them up with data. 
But there's also time of it and 

545
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,120
a place for emotion and for and 
for just saying what you're 

546
00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:00,840
thinking and for and for ranting
and for, yeah, putting something

547
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,360
out there that people will 
contradict with data, right. 

548
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:06,480
Even as an, as a, as an 
intentional step to elicit 

549
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,280
discussion and to get the best 
out of other people. 

550
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,920
So yeah, I I'm really taking a 
very much more dialectic 

551
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,200
approach these days than I think
I would have done 10 years ago. 

552
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,280
I think the dialectic is 
appropriate here. 

553
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,120
Nori made all the opposite 
mistakes where it was very 

554
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,640
visionary and but visionary in a
way that is like some of the 

555
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,040
things that were envisioned are 
still nowhere close to 

556
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,720
happening. 
And you're like, cool, some more

557
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,240
empirical grounding and 
data-driven. 

558
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,160
This might have been useful more
early. 

559
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,920
The goal is not to just be 
purely data-driven or purely 

560
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,960
intuitive. 
The ultimate goal for being good

561
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,480
at business or probably anything
is is being able to to marry 

562
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,600
these things, to being able to 
use your intuition successfully,

563
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,400
pair it with quantitative 
analysis where appropriate, but 

564
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,720
also not get so hidebound to 
either that you make poor 

565
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,520
decisions. 
I think that's just what wisdom 

566
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,400
is, as far as I know, is being 
able to combine those things and

567
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,680
wisdom has to be beaten into you
by learning the hard way, I 

568
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,800
think is mostly how that works. 
Yeah, there's nothing that that 

569
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,240
I think makes you understand 
things as much as running a 

570
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,240
starter when you're 25. 
And yeah, it's it really helped 

571
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,080
me on a lot of fronts. 
You got all the answers then, 

572
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,400
didn't you? 
You knew everything, I thought. 

573
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,800
What I did, it's so funny that I
mean, another aspect that maybe 

574
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,560
people know less about. 
I had a burnout when I was 28 

575
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,120
and and I was very much in the 
you got to work eighty 100 hours

576
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,680
a week kind of can and kind of 
glorifying that. 

577
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:31,280
And, and, and I remember having 
an off site discussion where 

578
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,720
somebody that is now one of my 
closest collaborators, Helen 

579
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,960
Lundaby, who is now also in CDI 
and she works with me on all 

580
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:36,960
projects. 
She's fantastic. 

581
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:41,120
I remember her raising the point
that we should have an 

582
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,240
expectation of not working more 
than 50 hours a week, which is 

583
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,440
already way too much. 
And I remember making such like,

584
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,480
yeah, taking her argument apart 
and being like, absolutely no. 

585
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,360
And when I think back about 
those moments, I'm like, who the

586
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,840
hell were you? 
And, and thankfully, thankfully,

587
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,080
I ran against the wall when I 
was 28. 

588
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,640
There's some people who never 
run against that wall or who run

589
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,600
against that wall much later in 
life and who spent decades doing

590
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,400
what I was doing. 
And I did it for 3-4 years and 

591
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,440
it was a really low point, but 
everything changed after. 

592
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,000
And for people who kind of know 
me also outside of work and in 

593
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,920
my free time, they will know 
that I've probably one of the 

594
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,720
healthiest setups that you can 
imagine. 

595
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,600
I'm very happy with how life is 
and how much I work and how I 

596
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,880
get to be in the mountains and 
with my family, with my wife and

597
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,320
with my kid and say that's 
another big, big learning. 

598
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,360
And I'm glad I did it early, 
even though it was painful, 

599
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,920
because I really, I hate the 
glorification of, of, of working

600
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,560
that much. 
I think it's one of the silliest

601
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,480
things we have done in our 
modern society. 

602
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,840
Yeah, the worst boss I ever had 
quoted this Elon Musk line. 

603
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,400
He said something like to be an 
entrepreneur is to chew on 

604
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,960
broken glass while staring into 
the abyss. 

605
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,760
How? 
Freaking depressing. 

606
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,200
Yeah, like, like that's why are 
we doing this. 

607
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,240
This is, this is terrible. 
Yeah. 

608
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,040
If you hear something like that,
by the way, you should run. 

609
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,000
If you're if you're in an 
interview and someone quotes 

610
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,160
that, you should get out of 
there. 

611
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,600
And it's all about to realize 
what the yes, it's all about in 

612
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,320
our job, not in all jobs. 
In our jobs, it's about the 

613
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,480
quality of our interaction and 
thought. 

614
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,440
And I realized a really 
interesting inverse causality of

615
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,800
the less I work, the higher the 
quality of my interactions and 

616
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,640
thought and the more productive 
I am, the more successful I am, 

617
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,600
the more compelling I am. 
And this is, this is something 

618
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,000
that I think is super under 
underutilized by people in 

619
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,920
business and by individuals is 
less is more when your job is to

620
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,920
be creative and impactful in the
way that we are hoping to be. 

621
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,120
So yeah. 
Of course the European says 

622
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,920
this. 
I'm in the European August. 

623
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:54,160
I know how you people do things.
Yeah, you Americans, I don't get

624
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:54,440
it. 
I. 

625
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,160
Don't think it works very well 
for us either. 

626
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,960
One thing that helps me be much 
more OK with the model you just 

627
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,760
stated is there is a way of 
understanding creativity and 

628
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,040
consciousness. 
This is a little bit woo. 

629
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,480
I'm going to go a little woo 
here. 

630
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:07,880
Tiny bit. 
I'm not even sure that I fully 

631
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,320
believe this, but if you can get
yourself there, I think it helps

632
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,280
in certain ways where 
consciousness is more of a field

633
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,640
rather than something that's 
endogenously generated by a 

634
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,320
material brain. 
And creativity is something that

635
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,640
is received. 
Your mind, your body more of an 

636
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,600
antenna for receiving 
intelligence rather than the 

637
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:24,840
thing that's generating 
intelligence. 

638
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,320
Even if this is poetry, if you 
think that way, your job is to 

639
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,320
clear enough space where you can
be creative. 

640
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,280
It doesn't mean you fill all 
your time up with meetings, but 

641
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,480
you have enough time where 
you're thinking passively and 

642
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,880
openly and then things come to 
you. 

643
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,080
And a lot of the ideas that I've
had recently, we're doing just 

644
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,600
that, not overbooked. 
That's really resonates like 

645
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,680
super high value. 
I'm like targeted. 

646
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,840
I know exactly what to do. 
I know who to introduce. 

647
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,440
This is the deal. 
You guys should cut this deal. 

648
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,000
This is serious. 
And that's that's not because I 

649
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,760
was working 80 hours a week. 
It's because I was listening 

650
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,760
very effectively. 
I think my. 

651
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:05,040
Best business ideas have all 
come while cycling or running or

652
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,200
hiking. 
All without exception. 

653
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,720
Not while I was sitting at the 
desk. 

654
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,000
And those, I mean, the decisions
that kind of really changed the 

655
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,840
trajectory of what I was doing. 
They all happened when I was 

656
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,960
outdoors doing something that I 
love. 

657
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,760
And when that happens, not one 
or once or twice, but 10/15/20 

658
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,200
times and you see that pattern, 
you, you realize I, I have to 

659
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,760
get, I, I mean, I love doing 
that stuff. 

660
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,800
But even just from a business 
perspective, from a career 

661
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,040
perspective, that's how I get 
the best outcome. 

662
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,640
Otherwise I will never have 
those ideas. 

663
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,560
It works. 
You don't have to. 

664
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,680
I don't know the mechanics of 
it. 

665
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,360
I don't know if it's just 
exercise, taking a break, weird 

666
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,400
thoughts about creativity. 
It doesn't matter. 

667
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,560
The proof is in the pudding, as 
we might say. 

668
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,640
It just kind of works. 
Yeah, I find that too. 

669
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,720
Why do we fetishize it then? 
Is there something about the, I 

670
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,840
don't know, toxic hustle 
culture? 

671
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,160
We got to be super busy. 
Makes us look productive and 

672
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,000
important. 
And I. 

673
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,960
Was I was a proponent of that. 
So I, I, I get it. 

674
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,440
I understand that I was part of 
that. 

675
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,520
I was, I was pushing my 
managers, my employees to the 

676
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,840
brink for years. 
And I feel awful for it now. 

677
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,720
And I'm like, what, what? 
And we were, and the worst part 

678
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,240
is at the time, we thought we 
had this best working place in 

679
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,680
the world, right? 
We had all the flexibility, 

680
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,880
unlimited paid time off, all 
that bullshit that when you, 

681
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,040
when you, when, the minute, when
the manager at the top is, is 

682
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,040
exuding toxicity day-to-day, it 
doesn't matter what policies you

683
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,040
have, you're just going to have 
miserable people in your team. 

684
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,640
And when they have families, you
know, you're 25, you don't get 

685
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,440
it. 
At least I didn't, and I'm not 

686
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,320
proud of that. 
That is the one, the one group 

687
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,480
of people that in considering 
who to work for, if I want to 

688
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,400
take a full time position 
somewhere, I'm like, I don't 

689
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,560
really want to work for a 25 
year old CEOIII think that's the

690
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,960
one. 
I'm like kind of discriminatory 

691
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,960
again for him. 
Like I think you need to come 

692
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,400
back to me 20 years later. 
And almost up to you. 

693
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,960
I mean quick reference my the 
the I mean main company I work 

694
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,520
with right at common future. 
The reason that I ended up with 

695
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,400
them is exactly this is because 
Honus, the CEO is freaking 

696
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,360
awesome. 
He had two kids ready early in 

697
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,560
life and he is the, he's 1 of 
this perfect mix of kind of 

698
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,080
environmentalist, but also he 
used to work in finance. 

699
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,960
He had kids early. 
He kind of gets family life and,

700
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,400
but still works, you know, 
productively. 

701
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,880
And when I saw that together, I 
was like, this is a person I 

702
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,440
want to work for because he gets
it right. 

703
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,800
The things that I didn't get 10 
years ago, he gets. 

704
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,239
So I'm, I'm completely with you.
I'm very picky now when it comes

705
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,040
to the people I work with. 
Yeah, Honus is somewhat because 

706
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,600
he's a, he has a PhD in 
financial engineering, I think, 

707
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,719
right. 
Yeah, he's one of those people 

708
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,719
that in the long, long arc of 
carbon removal, as soon as it 

709
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,080
becomes necessary to do some of 
that, like serious financial 

710
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,640
engineering, you're like cool 
carbon feature, not a bad place 

711
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,400
to be. 
Those skills, those skills are 

712
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,640
here now. 
They're ready now. 

713
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,960
And most importantly, I have to 
hope I don't expose him too 

714
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,680
much. 
He's, he's a really strong 

715
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,360
cyclist and I love that about 
him. 

716
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,560
I love that whenever I go to Fry
book I, I bring my bike, we go 

717
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,480
out. 
And but again, to me, when I, 

718
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,120
the people I work with, I don't 
have the expectation I had when 

719
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,120
I was 25 that I need to be best 
friends with everyone. 

720
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:21,960
Again. 
I think that's actually the 

721
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,880
toxic, but I have the 
expectation the people I work 

722
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,160
closest with, there needs to be 
some sort of human connection. 

723
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,120
It can't just be a business 
transaction. 

724
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,480
I need to understand the person 
behind the face. 

725
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,800
Otherwise, I find it really hard
to genuinely trust someone and 

726
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,840
do good work. 
And with Honest I, I found that 

727
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,440
which is really, really great. 
But it's something that, again, 

728
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,320
with 25, I had a very different 
understanding. 

729
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:51,000
Yeah. 
How bad was your 28 year old 

730
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000
self meltdown? 
Like what exactly happened? 

731
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,640
I never had thankfully, except 
that moment month. 

732
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,440
I never had mental health issues
in my life, but I started having

733
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,000
essentially anxiety and almost 
panic attacks and couldn't 

734
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,720
breathe and stuff, right? 
And it happened kind of a day. 

735
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,560
And then I didn't really. 
I just went to work. 

736
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,640
I remember opening my laptop and
not being able to breathe. 

737
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,840
And like that happened two or 
three times. 

738
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,080
And then at someone I was like, 
click, like, what the hell just 

739
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,600
happened here? 
Like where did you get to right?

740
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,480
And I had to be, I was building,
I was building that startup. 

741
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,760
I was building another startup 
in the evening from 9:00 to 

742
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,400
12:00. 
It was ridiculous. 

743
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,400
It was really ridiculous. 
And I was trying to have a 

744
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,440
relationship that obviously 
didn't work out right? 

745
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,040
Like, and it, it, it was crazy. 
And, but I remember once I 

746
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,480
realized I went to, to the CEO 
and I said and done. 

747
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,800
And I was like, look, this is 
happening. 

748
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,920
Either we reduce my workload now
in this meeting by 50% or I'm 

749
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,760
out. 
But it's the only way this can 

750
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,360
continue. 
And after that, I've changed my 

751
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,360
life and, and two years later, 
I, I left the company. 

752
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,920
And ever since I've kind of 
structured until then, my work 

753
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,600
always came first. 
And now it doesn't like I, my 

754
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,400
lifestyle, my, my other things 
come first. 

755
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,800
And I structure my work around 
it. 

756
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,800
And this is something that has 
been game changing for me is the

757
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,680
acceptance that I can do 
impactful, meaningful work that 

758
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,080
I really enjoy and that can 
sustain my life without it being

759
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,200
the top priority, which it is 
for many people, but for me, 

760
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,640
it's just not anymore. 
I'm genuinely surprised to hear 

761
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,240
you say this because you strike 
me as someone who is 

762
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,880
ridiculously productive. 
Not just the frequency and depth

763
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,680
of your posting and your 
writing. 

764
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,480
I saw how many words he wrote in
the last year. 

765
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,040
Just like that's a huge number. 
There's podcast, there's stuff 

766
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,080
that I don't know about that I'm
sure is like policy briefs and 

767
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,800
other things for Carbon Future, 
other clients. 

768
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,760
There's trade organizations, 
you. 

769
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,240
Delegate. 
Really. 

770
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:52,160
Really. 
Yeah. 

771
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,520
I I want to add that. 
I I know that's the answer at 

772
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,800
least partially, but it's true. 
So Sebastian, like what is the 

773
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,440
mechanics like who doing all 
this thing for you? 

774
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,280
Yeah, the people think I wear 
crazy eyes. 

775
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,360
I really don't. 
And I've surrounded myself with 

776
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:13,400
probably 8-9 people and over the
years that are exceptional, that

777
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,560
are highly autonomous, that 
require almost no management. 

778
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,200
Like literally half an hour a 
week at Max. 

779
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,200
And I often batch them together.
So there's maybe 2-3 hours of 

780
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,200
management per week and they are
just incredible. 

781
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:29,640
Some of which I like Helen, the 
person who asked for the 50K50 

782
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,320
hour week, I've been working 
with her for more than 10 years,

783
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,480
right? 
And, and she's been kind of 

784
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,640
transitioning with me now into 
carbon removal in other places. 

785
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,600
And, and so I, I think I'm just 
really, really good at finding 

786
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,560
and retaining very good people 
and delegating to them. 

787
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,520
It's the only explanation I have
because yes, I have a lot of 

788
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,120
output, but I don't work as much
as people think. 

789
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,240
Are these paid by you? 
Is it the different businesses? 

790
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,960
Does Carbon Future have like a 
team for you behind the scenes? 

791
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:58,760
Like what? 
What? 

792
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,760
How did this all work? 
Well, there's different, 

793
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,640
different entities, right? 
There's different things I run 

794
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:05,560
and they're paid to different 
entities. 

795
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,080
Basically there's a policy 
scoop, there's Cdr jobs, there's

796
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,160
kind of my consult, my policy 
consulting, right? 

797
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,960
So there's different entities 
and some of which, Helen, for 

798
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,160
example, she works on every 
single project of mine because 

799
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,400
she's so good. 
And but yeah, they're all 

800
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,320
freelancers doing their thing in
different businesses of mine. 

801
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,800
And for me, it's working great 
and it's keeping getting better 

802
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,400
and better. 
So I'm I'm very glad with that. 

803
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,160
Are the rest of us just fools 
that we're we're artisanally 

804
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,080
cranking this stuff out? 
And you're Henry Ford. 

805
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,840
You know this assembly line of 
freelancers. 

806
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,640
That's one thing that I showed 
that anyone who works with me 

807
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,560
closely knows I'm obsessed. 
Like I I said earlier about the 

808
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,640
intuition, right to do stuff, 
but when it comes to analysis, 

809
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:53,280
I'm insanely data-driven. 
Like I analyze the crap out of 

810
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,120
everything to understand 
patterns and to understand what 

811
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:57,840
works and doesn't work. 
And I've been doing that for 

812
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,680
years. 
And so I've been gradually 

813
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:06,840
optimizing everything I output 
to see what actually what 

814
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,360
actually has an impact. 
However, I define impact for the

815
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,800
given activity. 
If I can't track it, I probably 

816
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,320
don't do it in the first place. 
Like I, I really don't like, 

817
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,520
I'll give you an example. 
I was thinking of writing a book

818
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,240
and I was kind of of thinking 
about it. 

819
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,600
I even started a proposal. 
And then I decided halfway 

820
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,600
through that to drop it because 
I realized it didn't fit my 

821
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,920
modus operandi for how I do 
pretty much anything else and 

822
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:32,680
everything else. 
And that's the beauty of working

823
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,400
through all these digital 
channels. 

824
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,720
You have data, so you can be 
intuitive, you can be impulsive,

825
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:40,960
you can you can try things out, 
but when you look back, the data

826
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,400
doesn't lie. 
Like you can see what worked and

827
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,920
what doesn't. 
And when you keep optimizing 

828
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,200
your activities for years with 
data, you end up with stuff that

829
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,320
doesn't take a lot of time and 
that has pretty big reach and 

830
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,120
impact. 
And so I guess that's a big 

831
00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:00,600
component of the story as well. 
Interesting. 

832
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,640
I, I feel like that's a part 
that I fail at in my own content

833
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,440
creation that I think by the 
time this comes out, the, the 

834
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,560
last of the carbon removal 
shows, new little series will 

835
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,000
have aired. 
And I gave an interview for 

836
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,640
that. 
I end up talking about how the 

837
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,720
podcast for me is almost more 
art for art's sake. 

838
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,840
Like I don't, I don't have like 
a goal with it. 

839
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,080
I, if no one listened to it, if 
I get one good comment of 

840
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,960
appreciation for every show, I'm
like, that's good enough for me 

841
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,360
almost. 
Cuz I, I, I process my own 

842
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,080
thoughts through it and the 
creative product, I've detached 

843
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,560
myself from the outcome. 
But there are times I'm like, 

844
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,200
I'm like, surely leaving money 
on the table by not being 

845
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,320
obsessively data-driven and 
growing this thing. 

846
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,960
But then I also have a bit of a 
tricky relationship with social 

847
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,880
media. 
I'm not a very showy person. 

848
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,680
I don't like having to say, Hey,
everyone, stop what you're 

849
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:51,960
doing. 
Like you must listen to this 

850
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,200
thing. 
It's the most important thing on

851
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,880
your feed right now. 
But the people who are able to 

852
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,200
do that confidently and 
successfully in that kind of 

853
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,000
way, the results are there to to
see for all. 

854
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,560
But I think a lot of people 
maybe get caught in a similar 

855
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:04,840
thing where they're proud of 
their work. 

856
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,920
But the the way that social 
media encourages us to behave, I

857
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,520
think makes us feel a little bit
icky. 

858
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,240
This is me getting free advice 
from you. 

859
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,280
What should I do? 
No, but it's, it's a tough 

860
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:15,800
world, right? 
Because I mean, take, take my, 

861
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,880
my wife is an actress. 
And it's really interesting 

862
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,120
because we come from completely 
different worlds. 

863
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,760
We, our professions couldn't be 
more different. 

864
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,120
And the social media we use is 
completely different. 

865
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,840
But one thing we have in common 
is that both professions, in my 

866
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:40,360
opinion, depend to a huge extent
on personal branding in in the 

867
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,960
digital space. 
Like for her, it might be 

868
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,920
Instagram, right? 
For me, it might be LinkedIn. 

869
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,040
But I think nowadays and any job
for me, it's it's funny, like 

870
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,200
even a physiotherapist. 
And if you're a handyman, 

871
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,120
anything you do these days, if 
you have a strong online brand, 

872
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,280
you will out compete everyone 
else. 

873
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,240
And so we live in an age and 
that sucks. 

874
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:05,680
Just to be very clear, I don't 
think it's a good thing overall.

875
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:10,760
But we live in an age where I 
think the people who don't play 

876
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,000
the game, who are not 
comfortable on in these 

877
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,400
channels, who are not 
comfortable being on social 

878
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,680
media, also putting themselves 
out there, making themselves 

879
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,240
vulnerable in a public way, 
which I understand fully why 

880
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:25,120
some people don't want that. 
And they will be out competed by

881
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,680
people who are less qualified 
who can do that. 

882
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,400
And, and I see that across 
professions. 

883
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,960
And this is something that is 
not fair. 

884
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,960
I don't think it actually gets 
the best results overall, but 

885
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,320
it's something I recognized and 
I happen to be very comfortable 

886
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,240
with that kind of stuff. 
It was a process, but I feel 

887
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:43,560
quite comfortable with it. 
And once I realized this is how 

888
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:48,240
it works, I was like, OK, of 
course, like let's go for it. 

889
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,640
Yeah, it's one of those 
lingering things I've been 

890
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,680
thinking about. 
I know I need to confront it. 

891
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,760
I'm, I'm also content with with 
what it is for its own sake, but

892
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,360
I also wouldn't mind growing it.
And for the people who like it, 

893
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,000
they really like it. 
There's probably more of them 

894
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,880
out there who don't even know 
about it because I'm being shy 

895
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,080
about it in a weird way and it's
not really helping anything by 

896
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,040
doing it, by acting better than 
the algorithm. 

897
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,000
I don't need the algorithm. 
I don't want to participate in 

898
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,240
LinkedIn to the extent that is 
necessary to truly Max this out.

899
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,880
I messaged you recently because 
I had a post that I felt like 

900
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,080
was vulnerable that was dealing 
with some of the just a grief of

901
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,520
working in climate. 
Like this is like, I think a 

902
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,920
fairly real post. 
And yeah, but like some of 

903
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,160
there's like mechanical errors 
of like OK, you're you're re 

904
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,280
sharing from a post like. 
This. 

905
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,320
Is like don't do that at all. 
And some other parts of it are 

906
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,360
also things like, I don't know, 
maybe it's not written in a way 

907
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,720
that is I don't. 
I'm sure I could ask AI if I 

908
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:46,480
wanted to like rewrite this in a
way that that the algorithm is 

909
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,880
going to favour on LinkedIn and 
10 seconds later it'll be like 

910
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,600
cool, post this and it'll 
probably work. 

911
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,040
But this actually, by the way, 
you're opening up a whole nother

912
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,880
area, which I think is super 
interesting, which is AI 

913
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,960
generated content in our space. 
And actually I'm going to 

914
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,400
release this one. 
I've been doing a quick and 

915
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,120
dirty again. 
I'm want to see data. 

916
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:03,320
I have an intuition. 
I want to see data. 

917
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:08,160
I I did a quick and dirty 
analysis and of I shall not name

918
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,200
them by kind of the top 20 
influencers, CDI and climate. 

919
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,760
I looked at the last 15 polls 
and I ran them through a couple 

920
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,800
of AI check checks, you know, 
just because I wanted to see 

921
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,960
like I had the feeling like that
our that in the last 6 to 12 

922
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,640
months, like a lot of the 
content out there. 

923
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,640
I'm not I work with with Chachi 
PD all the time, right. 

924
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,440
I have it proofread my drafts. 
I have to give feedback to me. 

925
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,480
I help to bounce things set back
and forth. 

926
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,680
And I think anyone who's not 
doing it, it's just, you know, 

927
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,280
not utilizing this amazing tool.
But what really irritates me is,

928
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,800
and maybe that's just me, but is
when I see content that is 100% 

929
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:50,320
obviously copy and paste 
generated by GPT and I see more,

930
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,280
more of that content go viral. 
People love it. 

931
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:57,960
And I, and I'm, I'm just like, 
I'm like ripping my hair out. 

932
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,040
I'm like, what's going on here? 
I'd so obviously something like 

933
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,680
it really triggers me when I see
those posts and then I see like 

934
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,920
500 likes something. 
Then I'm like, who are these 500

935
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,000
people? 
And then I see people that I 

936
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,720
know and I'm like, you like this
stuff. 

937
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,600
I don't know if you've noticed 
that, but to me that's that's 

938
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,160
been something that's been, 
yeah, tricky. 

939
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:17,760
I don't. 
Know the the. 

940
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,120
The show that's going to come 
out before this that I 

941
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:21,960
referenced earlier today, I'm 
about to edit that out because 

942
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,760
it's not going to make any sense
to a listener. 

943
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,960
Yeah. 
The the dynamic here though, is 

944
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,200
you also have to make the nice a
little bit. 

945
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,960
And so there are people that you
know, you, you throw a like, 

946
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,920
it's like appreciated. 
There's sort of a economy of 

947
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,920
approbation and affection 
happening. 

948
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,880
That's fine. 
Even there, I, I like something 

949
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,280
sometimes where I'm like, this 
is fine and I'm glad you exist. 

950
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,280
So here's a like, it's not 
necessarily the most insightful 

951
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,880
thing or whatever. 
Maybe there was a big AI assist 

952
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,920
and well, I don't, I don't 
necessarily mind that, 

953
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,320
especially if maybe the core 
ideas came from a particular 

954
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,120
person, but they, they use help 
to get through the laborious 

955
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,040
writing process. 
Like whatever it is just some 

956
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,000
original idea in there that 
probably came from you. 

957
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,040
I get advice from AI sometimes 
I'm like, this doesn't make any 

958
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,000
sense at all. 
So I see something like that 

959
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:08,320
sometimes too. 
Yeah, I'm. 

960
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,080
Just I'm, I'm wondering what 
will social media look like in 

961
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,040
like even LinkedIn? 
What will LinkedIn look like in 

962
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:14,960
five years? 
Like there's, that's my 

963
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,560
hypothesis, which is that people
will crave authenticity and that

964
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,440
very few formats lend themselves
to authentic content anymore. 

965
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:29,160
Not text, audio for a while. 
Video I'm getting really scared 

966
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,920
about like how good some of 
these video models are getting. 

967
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,800
So it's, it's really tricky for 
me to know what will be truly 

968
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,320
authentic content. 
I love lives. 

969
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,040
I love doing lives because that 
feels like the most authentic 

970
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,440
thing we can do is get someone 
on a live and talk in front of 

971
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,880
people and whatever they say 
will be listened to, right? 

972
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,200
But there's also a side of me 
and I'm trying to go all in. 

973
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,360
I'm kind of more authentic 
content because my hypothesis is

974
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,320
that that will pay off. 
But there's also a side of me 

975
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,680
which things the solely AI 
generated, like, yeah, momentum 

976
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,680
that's happening now could 
destroy social media once and 

977
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,800
for all. 
Because if you just have AI 

978
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,800
interacting with AI and there's 
no human involved anymore, I 

979
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,800
mean, what's the point going on 
LinkedIn, right? 

980
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,680
No idea. 
What do you think? 

981
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,760
Yeah, I've seen the predictions 
of the like, slop overwhelming 

982
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,600
social media and the Internet as
a whole, and that being like a 

983
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,200
major risk for the Internet as 
it's currently structured. 

984
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,000
And there's probably something 
to that, I don't know. 

985
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,160
I find LinkedIn and a lot of 
these spaces to be somewhat 

986
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,440
aggravating already. 
Social media I don't hold in 

987
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,920
great high esteem and have them 
for a long time either. 

988
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,320
They do weird things with your 
data all the time. 

989
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,840
They don't care about you and 
they're not your friend. 

990
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,720
They make poor decisions. 
Some of them buy carbon removal.

991
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,080
Cool. 
Not sure that makes them a great

992
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,720
global entity, but thank you. 
Like I, I don't know. 

993
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,120
And it I don't like the way that
it forces us to reform, like 

994
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,120
monetizes by engagement through 
anger. 

995
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,760
Like you stay on because you're 
pissed off. 

996
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,920
I think like X and Twitter often
has that LinkedIn has it where 

997
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,600
you get a lot of like some of 
the posts that will do well and 

998
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,400
there will be like, here's a 
selfie of me at a conference and

999
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,000
I'll see like 400 like like, 
cool, you like bought a ticket 

1000
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,400
and went somewhere like why? 
Why is that worthy of this 

1001
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,720
amount of approbation? 
And it's really frustrating. 

1002
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,040
But then I'm it also, it also 
knows that it's probably pissing

1003
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,040
me off, like looking at a really
low quality kind of idiotic 

1004
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,920
post. 
And so I'm engaged on LinkedIn 

1005
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,120
by looking at other people being
performative and showy about 

1006
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,800
their own like quote, UN quote 
accomplishments here. 

1007
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,440
And then I so I'm engaged too. 
Like it was also working off of 

1008
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,640
anger. 
And I don't like being in spaces

1009
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:42,280
that encourage the basest parts 
of our animal natures here. 

1010
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,360
I find I'm like, not sure that 
increasing digitization of all 

1011
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,880
of our lives and all of our 
social relationships are worth 

1012
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,200
it. 
That being said, though, there 

1013
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,640
are so many places like if 
you're a parent, you know, like 

1014
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,440
your child's school has a very 
active Facebook group or 

1015
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,440
something, you might you might 
not even want to be on Facebook,

1016
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:58,880
but if you're not, you're 
missing information that's 

1017
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:00,440
valuable. 
The stuff they always make it 

1018
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,680
like just valuable enough that 
you can't really leave. 

1019
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,080
And Linkedin's like that too. 
Like if I left LinkedIn, the 

1020
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,480
opportunities for me would would
not be as great. 

1021
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,880
Like I got a lot of lot of good 
stuff comes from LinkedIn for 

1022
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:12,080
me. 
But. 

1023
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,760
I think I would also kind of 
like to not have to play the 

1024
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,880
game, be like, guys, I have a 
new affiliation. 

1025
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,160
I just started a new thing. 
Here's a new podcast. 

1026
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,160
Like, everyone, stop what you're
doing and listen to me. 

1027
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,320
But if you don't do it, then 
you're also not getting the 

1028
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,720
opportunities. 
That's always just just good 

1029
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:29,880
enough to keep me in the mix. 
But I can't like get off of it. 

1030
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,600
And then or you could just like 
go be a hermit or like Bill 

1031
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,600
Murray apparently has a 
voicemail that you can just call

1032
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,080
and ask him to be in your movie 
and like state the terms of it. 

1033
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:38,760
And that's why he doesn't even 
have an agent. 

1034
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:41,480
Like could I just do that? 
I don't think I, I don't think 

1035
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,120
I'm far enough along career wise
to to just have like a landline 

1036
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,640
with a with a answering machine 
you're. 

1037
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:46,840
Getting there, Ross, you're 
getting there. 

1038
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:48,520
Sorry. 
I just went on like a 10 minute 

1039
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,200
rant on this, but I I find the 
whole social media business to 

1040
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,360
be inherently sort of icky and 
corrupted in this way. 

1041
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,320
But I also know that I kind of 
have to use it here. 

1042
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,800
Help me disabuse myself at least
some of those notions unless you

1043
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,880
totally agree. 
I mean, you've done almost have 

1044
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,640
you done 400 episodes of this 
podcast yet? 

1045
00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:07,200
Have. 
You count that and carbon 

1046
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,800
removal newsroom, it's probably 
like closer to five, I think so,

1047
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,000
OK. 
There you go. 

1048
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,440
I mean, that's your answer, 
right? 

1049
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:19,640
Like you, you've really built a 
platform that you can control, 

1050
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,240
that you can keep authentic, 
whatever that means to you, 

1051
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,160
right? 
And, and that's incredibly 

1052
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,400
powerful. 
And yeah, be on LinkedIn, do 

1053
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,400
your thing, but like, you have 
your channel. 

1054
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,560
And that's something that's 
actually really important to me 

1055
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,360
is I, I, I, of course I'm on 
LinkedIn, Everyone knows that. 

1056
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:40,080
But I, my biggest objective is 
to diversify away from LinkedIn 

1057
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,000
and to, I mean, the podcast. 
I love that that whole 

1058
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,400
experience has gone into a 
direction I would have never 

1059
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:47,840
dreamed. 
It's, it's amazing. 

1060
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,440
And the opportunities that come 
from it and the conversations I 

1061
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,960
get to have there and we control
it 100% and it's authentic. 

1062
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,240
And so I, I, I'm a huge, I was 
always a fan of podcast. 

1063
00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:58,960
Now I'm a huge fan of being a 
podcaster. 

1064
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,760
It's amazing. 
And so for me it's more about 

1065
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,880
building those platforms in 
future. 

1066
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,200
Still doing LinkedIn, I see a 
lot of value there, but I really

1067
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,680
prefer things like we are doing 
now and that I get to do in the 

1068
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,800
policies group. 
For me there's much more. 

1069
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,240
Value there. 
What's being a parent like for 

1070
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:19,400
you? 
So what I, what I find really 

1071
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,920
interesting is that before being
a parent, I, I, now that maybe 

1072
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:28,920
one step back, I act very 
intuitively and I don't think 

1073
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,240
too much about the negative 
consequences of what a certain 

1074
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:34,080
decision could have, could have.
Again, can be bad, can be good. 

1075
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,160
I adopted a dog and then went to
my employer and said, I have a 

1076
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:39,320
dog. 
I need to bring him into the 

1077
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,320
office. 
That example when I was 20. 

1078
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,920
And, but even with the kid, I 
didn't think too much about it. 

1079
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,840
And I'm glad I didn't because 
it's just really difficult. 

1080
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,040
And there are two sides. 
Often it's like, oh, being a dad

1081
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,400
is amazing or being a parent is 
amazing or being a dad is 

1082
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,720
exhausting. 
They coexist. 

1083
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,600
And what I didn't understand 
before enough is that within a 

1084
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,600
minute, within an hour, within a
day, you will have great 

1085
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,920
happiness that you've never 
known before and love coexist 

1086
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,880
with complete exhaustion, 
despair and frustration. 

1087
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:13,120
And that, that kind of those two
things happening at the same 

1088
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,720
time. 
I wasn't ready for that. 

1089
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,640
And now I'm, I'm starting to. 
But it, it, it's almost 

1090
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,160
everyday, both of them. 
And so, yeah, it's, it's a lot. 

1091
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,040
That's usually what I tell 
people is that it's everything 

1092
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,200
that people say about it. 
It's it's the most rewarding 

1093
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:30,640
thing. 
It's beautiful. 

1094
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,440
It's incredibly aggravating at 
points to there'll be sometimes 

1095
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,240
where I'll be I'll be praising 
my son for something to I was 

1096
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:39,320
talking to my wife and and be 
like celebrating some 

1097
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:40,640
achievement. 
And then I'll go walk in the 

1098
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,720
other room to check on him and 
be doing something that's like 

1099
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,040
is well known to be against the 
rules. 

1100
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,320
And it's just like, what are you
talking about? 

1101
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,360
What is this man? 
We we talked about this. 

1102
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,600
Come on, it never stops as far 
as I know. 

1103
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,000
I think that's just like part of
it. 

1104
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,840
Maybe that's just also people. 
People are both like some of the

1105
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,920
most, most wonderful things on 
the plant to interact with. 

1106
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,680
I don't like calling them 
things, but but also they are 

1107
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,640
the most aggravating things. 
I'm I'm not that worried about 

1108
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,200
tigers. 
I'm not that worried about rain.

1109
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,480
I'm, I'm like pretty worried 
about people making decisions, 

1110
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,120
but I'm also like most 
encouraged by people making 

1111
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,280
decisions too. 
How old is your kid? 

1112
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,000
He's 1616. 
Wow. 

1113
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:21,440
Oh yeah, completely different 
face then, huh? 

1114
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,040
Yeah, it'll be funny story. 
It always says like one of the 

1115
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,120
weirdest, weirdest ways to start
a family. 

1116
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,920
But I always see people, they're
doing math in their head. 

1117
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,440
When I tell them that they're 
like, were you a teen dad? 

1118
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,680
Like, how old were you? 
I'm like, no, I adopted. 

1119
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,080
Don't. 
At what age? 

1120
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:41,840
At 12:00. 
So my my wife, I don't know if 

1121
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,640
I'll keep this in or not, but 
she, her family's Lithuanian 

1122
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,760
American and spent a lot of time
volunteering in a children's 

1123
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,040
home in Lithuania. 
Met him when he was one and then

1124
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,080
as soon as you're married long 
enough to qualify for adoption, 

1125
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,800
we adopted him. 
So we decided when he was 10 and

1126
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,080
I think it took a toll. 
He was 12 to complete it. 

1127
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,960
That's amazing. 
I, I, it's adoption's definitely

1128
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,160
something that I, I think I want
to do in the future as well. 

1129
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:07,360
Like I've always really, really 
liked the idea. 

1130
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,040
Again, shout out again to, to 
the show you did on it, which I 

1131
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,560
really, really enjoyed. 
And yeah, I mean, I'm now 

1132
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:20,600
getting to do the whole newborn 
baby thing and it's a journey. 

1133
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:24,160
But yeah, in the future, I'm 
sure I'm I'm very open to, to 

1134
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,840
adoption as well. 
What are you going to do with 

1135
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,400
your kid during the climate wars
of the twenty 40s? 

1136
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,600
Are you going to enlist them as 
a child soldier? 

1137
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,320
Are you going to wait? 
Honestly? 

1138
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,920
Again, trying to put that in the
corner of my brain, that's on 

1139
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,920
excess very often. 
And but one thing that I'm 

1140
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,800
really glad coming back to what 
we said earlier is with work 

1141
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,920
straightened out before having a
kid, because for me, it's, it's 

1142
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:57,160
a no brainer that my kid comes 
first like any time of the day. 

1143
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,840
And, and that's really 
important. 

1144
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,320
Like if I imagine like being in 
the place where I, I, I, I 

1145
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,880
really departed my work. 
I kind of departed my kid. 

1146
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,600
That would be right now really, 
really, really hot. 

1147
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:13,080
So, yeah, I'm glad that I took 
some decisions before having a 

1148
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,640
kid. 
Travelling little, working from 

1149
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:16,720
home. 
Like there's a lot of things 

1150
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:21,120
that I've done structurally that
allow me to be the father. 

1151
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,640
At least I aspire to be. 
I don't succeed all the time, 

1152
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,920
obviously, but at least I can 
try, right? 

1153
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,240
And I know many people, I have 
the luxury of being able to do 

1154
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:31,320
it like this. 
Many people don't. 

1155
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:33,960
But there are also many people 
who could structure their life 

1156
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:35,560
to be much more present and who 
don't. 

1157
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,240
Right. 
And so this is something that 

1158
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:39,600
for me was really important 
before having a kid. 

1159
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,320
Yeah, I think it's very, very 
sensible advice. 

1160
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,520
Do you have a tradition of 
Christmas movies? 

1161
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,840
Or maybe you've just seen 
American Christmas movies where 

1162
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,120
there's a dad and he he's 
overworked and it's Christmas 

1163
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,760
time and like trying to meet 
deadlines and you just know that

1164
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:58,840
by the end of the movie he's 
going to learn the spirit of 

1165
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,880
Christmas. 
And like it sounds like I've 

1166
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,040
seen 9. 100 shows like. 
That yeah, it's. 

1167
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,080
Like it's like, so we talked 
about the monkey. 

1168
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,800
Paw and we talked about whatever
this archetype is called, I 

1169
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,160
don't know, it has a name. 
Whatever it is, it has a name. 

1170
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,920
Is the Father who needs to learn
the meaning of Christmas. 

1171
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:19,240
And whenever I feel that way. 
Last year, Nori had closed in 

1172
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:20,760
the summer. 
And I was. 

1173
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:26,280
Doing a case study for a job 
that I did not get and I ended 

1174
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,520
up having to do it like I 
thought I would finish a couple 

1175
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,880
days ahead of Thanksgiving. 
And I ended up working on it a 

1176
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:33,800
good chunk of the morning of 
Thanksgiving. 

1177
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,800
And I'm like, Oh my God, 
Christmas movie, I got it. 

1178
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:39,920
Like. 
And anytime I find myself a 

1179
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,840
directionally approaching that, 
I'm like, no, no, no. 

1180
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,520
My relationship with my family 
way more important than whatever

1181
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,520
stupid job this is, Don't care, 
do not do this. 

1182
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,440
And I find my life is much 
better when I make decisions 

1183
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:53,960
like that. 
Sometimes they're painful. 

1184
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,440
It's painful saying no to 
opportunity. 

1185
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:58,840
And you always wonder, like, 
would that have been a good 

1186
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:00,880
thing to say yes to? 
Like, am I missing out on? 

1187
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,200
It's something that I would 
really like to be a part of, but

1188
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,680
you are also saying no to your 
family and you don't want to not

1189
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:10,760
be a part of that. 
And I think if you say yes to 

1190
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:12,760
me, other things, you don't 
leave a lot of room for them 

1191
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,360
either when one very simple 
exercise. 

1192
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,600
That helped me when I left my 
startup was I literally just put

1193
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,000
on a piece of paper kind of what
are the big categories in my 

1194
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,600
life, you know, whatever 
relationship, wife, dog, sports,

1195
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,720
job, whatever it is for a, for a
person. 

1196
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,080
And then I just matched it 
against how much time am I 

1197
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,280
spending on these right now, my 
wake time. 

1198
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,040
And then I put next to it, how 
much meaning and happiness do I 

1199
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:45,360
get from each of these? 
And it was crazy because, you 

1200
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:50,000
know, work, whatever was like 
60% and it didn't give me 60% of

1201
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,320
my meaning or happiness. 
At no point, even at my start, 

1202
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,520
when we, when my startup was 
going the best it possibly 

1203
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,080
could, even at that moment, it 
didn't give me 60% of my 

1204
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,320
happiness, right. 
And then you see other things 

1205
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,480
which are just like, I don't 
know, you have like wife and 

1206
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,200
it's like 10% and you're like, 
give me 40% of my happiness. 

1207
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,040
Like, what the hell am I Am I 
doing? 

1208
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,200
And and it was very simple 
exercise, but I saw that and 

1209
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:15,840
then I was OK, this is my this 
is what I need to get to, right?

1210
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:17,960
I need to make sure that those 
numbers add up as much as 

1211
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,120
possible. 
Yeah. 

1212
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,680
Good lesson. 
Wow, Ross, that was a wild ride.

1213
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:26,480
Yeah, I don't. 
Know what I'm going to do for 

1214
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:27,880
editing? 
Some of this is going to end up 

1215
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,920
as bonus content. 
I don't know. 

1216
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,160
Damn it, the Russ and Sebastian 
talking about geopolitics. 

1217
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,720
It's not, it's. 
I mean, there's more that should

1218
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:39,480
be said I. 
You're, look, you care about 

1219
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,280
policy, you're in Europe, you're
also globally oriented. 

1220
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,120
There's a lot to say about all 
of this, I think. 

1221
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:45,800
And I think we ignored at our 
peril. 

1222
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:47,920
I think we pretend like it's not
something that influences 

1223
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,480
climate work, but I think it's 
one of the climate stories that 

1224
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,120
is least represented in our 
space and possibly the most 

1225
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:55,760
important. 
So I'm tolerant of it. 

1226
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,120
Maybe it's a little bit of a 
joke, but that's OK. 

1227
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:00,240
Ross, thank you so much. 
I'll have to go down. 

1228
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:01,240
Dinner's ready. 
But I. 

1229
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:05,360
Really enjoyed it and yeah, 
looking forward to it. 

1230
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,800
This was great. 
It's great to cut me off to go 

1231
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,280
do family obligations. 
It's very much on theme. 

1232
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:11,480
Thanks for being here. 
Exactly. 

1233
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:12,920
See ya.