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Hey everyone, welcome to season 
2 of reversing climate change. 

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Subscribe, and thank you so much

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for listening to another season 
of reversing climate change. 

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Hello and welcome to the 
reversing climate change. 

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Podcast. 
I'm Ross Kenyon today, I have 

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with me Charles see man, 
journalist and author of 1491, 

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1493 and The Wizard in the 
prophet. 

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He's also a correspondent for 
the Atlantic wired and science. 

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Thanks for being here. 
Charles it's my pleasure. 

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Your work comes up all the time 
and we recently did a Nori 

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patreon book club for The Wizard
and the profit for the month of 

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April generated. 
A lot of discussion and debate, 

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I think this is a great book and
a Great way to frame, I don't 

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know. 
Various schools of thought 

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within the environmental 
movement, why don't you give us 

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a nice little bass line here for
what? 

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Exactly are these camps who are 
the avatars of each that you 

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feature in the book and how are 
you conceptualizing, the split 

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basically, I'm a journalist, as 
you said and I've been reporting

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on environmental issues since 
the 1980s since the late 1980s 

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and talking to activists 
politicians and above all 

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researchers, And over time, I 
came to realize that the answer 

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today is getting to my questions
fell into two broad camps, not 

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always, but generally, and I 
thought of them as Wizards in 

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profits and wizards, essentially
are the people who want, you 

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know, what's disparagingly 
called the Techno fix their 

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argument is look. 
We have these technical 

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challenges from, you know, the 
things that we did that we want 

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to do and the the growth of our 
economies. 

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And so, what we need to do is 
switch on the Science and 

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Technology machine and 
essentially produce our way out 

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of our dilemmas, the profits on 
the other hand say, that's 

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completely wrong. 
That's exactly the wrong 

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directions, doing more of, 
what's gotten us into trouble in

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the past. 
And what we need to do is to 

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conserve and radically cut back 
and reduce the the human 

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footprint. 
And a while ago, it suddenly 

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dawned on me that these two 
approaches were kind of the 

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opposite from each other and 
that many of the Conflicts, I 

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saw both within the 
environmental movement and 

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between the environmental 
movement and Society were 

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expressions of the conflict 
between Wizards and Prophets. 

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And I thought, geez, I'd really 
like to read something about 

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that and then I didn't so I 
decided that well okay, I'll try

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and do it since nobody else is. 
You know, I think you do a very 

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good job of being fair to both 
of these camps because they each

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have a part of the puzzle. 
And depending on the issue or 

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the various application with 
inside of environmental concerns

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You might find yourself leaning 
to one way or the other. 

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And I think you do a very good 
job of Steel Manning for The 

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Listener opposite of straw 
Manning. 

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So I think you treat both of 
these schools of thought, maybe 

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even more fairly than you had to
in order to write this book. 

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Thank you very much. 
Now, I think it's important. 

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And the reason is that 
relatively soon, my research, it

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suddenly dawned on me that these
differences were not just kind 

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of pragmatic differences about, 
you know, how do you do this, 

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but they express values. 
And their values that everybody 

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shares in one proportion or 
another. 

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And we just give different 
weights to them. 

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So, typically, profits value 
community in the idea that we're

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all part of Nature and that we 
are embedded in this much much 

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larger system and which we 
should play are assigned role. 

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And the Wizards on the contrary 
are much more about individual 

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liberty and freedom, which is, 
you know, the idea of maximizing

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human potential and people 
living in the The best possible 

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way that they can, and we all, 
like, both of these things in 

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different amounts, it just that 
they come into conflict and 

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where you end up, which side of 
that conflict determines a lot 

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about whether your appealed to, 
by the Wizards of the prophets 

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and the book you use a very 
interesting framing device. 

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This is I thought your book 
described as a joint biography 

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or some such. 
And so you have these two 

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avatars of these two ways of 
being and thinking, who are 

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they? 
And what are broadly Their life 

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arcs. 
Well, as I said, I've been a 

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journalist for a long time and 
over the years, I realized I've 

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often heard this name. 
Norman, Borlaug. 

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And people who I later, came to 
think of his Wizards, would say,

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I want to do for X. 
What? 

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Borlaug did for wheat? 
And who Norman Borlaug was? 

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He's the main figure in What's 
called the Green Revolution, 

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which is the mix of high 
yielding hybrid seeds, 

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high-intensity fertilizer and hi
Volume irrigation that created 

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within called the Green 
Revolution, which doubled 

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tripled or even quadrupled 
Global grain yields in the 1960s

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70s and 80s and had a huge 
impact on our lives. 

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And one way of putting it is 
that as far back as few 

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historians can go, the majority 
of humankind has faced hunger at

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some point or other in the in 
the year. 

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You know, when I graduated from 
high school, you know the UN was

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food and agricultural 
organization. 

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Estimated that between 40 and 60
percent of the world's 

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population was malnourished. 
Now, those same people are 

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estimating that, it's on the 
order of eight to ten percent. 

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So you see this enormous and 
dramatic decline that the Green 

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Revolution had a lot to do with.
And so people saw that and they 

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took a very powerful lesson from
it which is that you, you know, 

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switch on the science machine 
and you can have this dramatic 

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impact on life and they hope 
that they can do the same in 

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whatever field that there's in. 
So that's the reason. 

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In for looking at Borlaug, it's 
this sort of prototypical wizard

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at about the same time, I 
realized it when I talk to 

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especially older 
environmentalists I heard this 

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name, I would hear this name 
occasionally that I had, 

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certainly never heard in some 
public discourse. 

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And I was a guy named William 
vote and essentially he put 

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together the ideas behind the 
modern environmental movement, 

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he wrote the first modern world 
going to hell book. 

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If you know what I mean, that 
was back in 1948 was called the 

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road to survival and if you read
people like Jared, Mentor people

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Paul Ehrlich or you know, Bill 
McKibben to some extent Naomi 

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Klein. 
All these kinds of people, their

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ideas directly traced back to 
Bill and William vote. 

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And then I was fascinated to 
realize that they both got their

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ideas, which diametrically 
opposed to each other at the 

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same time from in the same 
place, which is rural Central 

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Mexico in the mid-1940s. 
Yeah, I bet the journalist in 

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your love, that you found that 
nice little connection there. 

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R. 
Oh absolutely. 

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He's like wait a minute. 
There's a way you could actually

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tell this story if the two 
people got their ideas at the 

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same place and time. 
Matt had this immediate 

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collision and never never spoke 
to each other again. 

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Well yeah, I do do like that 
nice intersection there. 

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I'm trying to think you just 
gave a great list of various 

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other people who may qualify as 
profits that are currently 

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operating might be some of the 
great Wizards. 

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I guess, the first person that 
comes to mind is also an alumnus

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of this podcast, which is Ted 
nordhaus of the Breakthrough 

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Institute. 
Do you think that's fair than 

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who might, who might be in his 
company? 

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Sure, I mean there's lots of 
those kinds of people and they 

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you know Hans rosling, the guy 
wrote faithfulness would We'd be

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another just the ausa Bell, lots
of people with the resources for

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the future and these, you know, 
one of your guests Mez ramez 

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naam, a good friend of mine 
would certainly count this one. 

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He's told me himself, I mean, 
you can you can find them all 

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over there. 
The people who are, you know, 

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boosting the idea of huge solar 
installations, all those huge 

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wind installations, people who 
want to do next Generation 

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nukes. 
The people who are arguing, I 

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think Emma Maris recently. 
Argued in wired, that GMOs are 

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necessary to save nature, so 
that kind of average is a 

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Wizard's approach. 
And by the way, just by naming 

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them are not trying to sort of 
single them out, or criticizing 

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them, just saying, there are 
exemplars of a kind of tendency 

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that's been around in the 
environmental movement since the

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very beginning, Norman Borlaug. 
The guy who described as an 

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agricultural scientist, also saw
himself as an environmentalist 

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because he believed that 
intensifying production and 

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having this, you know, much more
quote, unquote, scientific Of 

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Agriculture would lead to 
increased yields and fewer 

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demands on nature. 
So, you wouldn't have hungry 

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people going out into the 
forests and Meadows and just 

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sort of stripping them Bear. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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It's my intention not to name 
and shame these people either 

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because I think it's very useful
in learning to split ideas into 

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their various camps. 
Like, I like that. 

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There's a wizard in a profit 
group and that helps me really 

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wrap my head around this and a 
clear way. 

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And if, if one of them, clearly 
was right about 100% of 

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everything, there were no longer
be at the Kata me and this 

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partition between them, one of 
them would have just concretely 

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one once and for all. 
And I think that means that each

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of them have something to say 
here. 

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But that being said, when you do
create a nice partition in, 

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there's two options or two, 
broad schools of thought with an

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issue group, that's the sort of 
begging out to be disrupted and 

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to be complicated. 
So what are some of the 

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complexities that that might 
face such a divided like this? 

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Well, first, I should say that 
what I'm talking about is a kind

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of mental model, you know, for 
how to sort things. 

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And there's a famous expression 
that all models are wrong, but 

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some are useful. 
So the first thing to stipulate 

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is that there's tons of 
exceptions and caveat sand and 

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so forth. 
And this model then the question

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is, is it a useful way to break 
things down? 

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And I think it is. 
And one of the things that would

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I think that I would be 
complexities that say, take Ted 

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nordhaus at At the Breakthrough 
Institute. 

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I think Ted would be appalled if
any of this were to be taken as 

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somehow that his belief in 
technological, solutions were 

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taken to be a lack of Love of 
Nature, and a lack of respect 

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for the natural world. 
And, similarly, I think the 

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prophets who were saying in 
favor of organic farming, and 

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this kind thing embedding 
themselves in a community are 

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very upset Get that being taken 
for anti-science. 

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You know, there's a guy just 
down the road, I live in a small

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town in Massachusetts and just 
down the road from me is a small

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organic farm and they regard 
themselves as highly scientific.

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Because they see themselves as 
embedded into, you know, the 

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ecosystems around them and they 
have gone to considerable 

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trouble to understand how these 
work. 

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So, one way to put it would be 
that, they both Express 

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different parts of a love of 
Nature and different parts of 

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Anna, love of science. 
Okay, I think that's useful one 

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of the various other axes, that 
seems like, it might map on to 

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wizards and Prophets is to what 
degree do you believe in 

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economies of scale versus 
decentralization? 

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00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:59,900
Yes, well there, there that, 
that's exactly the Wizards 

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typically. 
Not always look to centralized 

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Solutions and economies of scale
the prophets regard, those is 

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brittle and tend to look for 
decentralized networks. 

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And there's a whole division 
about whether they are Craddock 

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or not. 
Okay. 

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00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:16,200
Yeah. 
I guess I could definitely think

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of a counter examples to 
especially with something like 

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the potential of blockchain to 
be radically decentralizing an 

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important kind of way. 
So a lot of people who are 

226
00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:27,800
extremely wizardly about 
blockchains also are some of the

227
00:12:27,808 --> 00:12:31,800
most strong Advocates I know of 
against centralized institutions

228
00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:34,300
so that isn't true. 
This doesn't break the model 

229
00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:35,600
just maybe later. 
Yeah. 

230
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,500
No. 
But you could for example, take 

231
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,600
solar power when the serve two 
models of solar power and one 

232
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Gigantic installations, you 
know, the the you hear this sort

233
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,000
of calculation, you cover x 
amount of the Arizona desert in 

234
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,900
solar panels and that would be 
enough to power the entire 

235
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country. 
And the idea is that, you know, 

236
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on some level, you should 
actually do that. 

237
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,700
We should have these huge places
in the desert and then they 

238
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would leave the rest for and 
then pipe it around the country.

239
00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:07,600
And, you know, leave the 
restaurant for nature and the 

240
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,200
prophets tend to viscerally 
react against that because they 

241
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,500
see this as creating a kind of a
sacrifice Zone. 

242
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,500
What they like the idea is of 
these immense networks of 

243
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,000
neighborhood solar, you know, 
lots and lots of rooftop, and 

244
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small scale installations all 
networked together, passing 

245
00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:24,200
power back and forth. 
And they see that as under much 

246
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,000
more local control Much More 
decentralized, Much More 

247
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,100
resilient in case of disaster. 
And so you get, you know, and 

248
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:35,600
identical technology, the the PV
panel thought of into remarkably

249
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,700
different ways. 
Do you think? 

250
00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:41,000
Okay? 
So another axis I'd like to 

251
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:43,500
apply op on top of this and see 
if it Maps at all. 

252
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,100
Do you see it fitting along 
partisan lines or even just 

253
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,300
political philosophy lines or is
it more complicated than that? 

254
00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:55,400
What's a little bit? 
You know, it is certainly the 

255
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,100
case that, you know that at 
various times, for instance, 

256
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:02,100
there is as we speak. 
There is a relatively recently, 

257
00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:06,800
a Michael Moore produced a 
documentary that was planted 

258
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,000
humans. 
I saw this. 

259
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,600
It was everyone's been yelling 
about it, so a little scared 

260
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,500
again. 
Well, My opinion is not 

261
00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:14,800
particularly good. 
Let's put it that way. 

262
00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:21,200
But one of the things that it 
does is it calls various 

263
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,500
environmentalists who have 
embraced larger scale solutions 

264
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:28,900
to which are typically Wizards. 
It calls from corporate sellouts

265
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:31,500
and the implication is the, you 
know, they're sort of playing 

266
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:35,200
into the hands of the right and 
the capital F, and this kind of 

267
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,300
thing. 
So, there's a kind of gloss, 

268
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,500
political glossy can put on it, 
but I think at its bottom, it 

269
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:44,100
isn't really like that. 
The so much because there are 

270
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:49,300
plenty of people on both sides 
who, like the different values. 

271
00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:53,500
And so, typically Wizards are 
the ones who argue that 

272
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,000
technology will let everybody 
pack and together into these 

273
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,200
super dense cities where 
knowledge and can be centralized

274
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,300
in and accumulated and passed on
better leaving the rest of the 

275
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,500
world for nature. 
And then the profits are 

276
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:12,600
typically are like small town 
type people. 

277
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:16,400
You know who like the idea of 
these smaller scale communities 

278
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,100
and regard, these kind of mega 
cities that are embraced by 

279
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:22,900
people like Ted at the 
Breakthrough Institute as you 

280
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:28,300
know, kind of cesspools of 
corruption and inequality and 

281
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,800
you'll find people, you know, on
the right and left on both sides

282
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,300
of that debate. 
Absolutely you can. 

283
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,400
And when I think about this too,
especially within the prophet 

284
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,100
Camp, I can think of many 
conservatives. 

285
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:42,200
I know thinkers. 
I like who prefer much smaller. 

286
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,900
Are much more local. 
And I also know, a lot of people

287
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:47,500
who are more in the 
permaculture, small farms 

288
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:50,400
movement that very well might 
end up Neighbors in agreed on 

289
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,000
that. 
One thing, even though their 

290
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,300
lives may look very different. 
Yes. 

291
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,600
Yeah. 
And so, one of the, I mean, not 

292
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,300
really something. 
I thought of when I first 

293
00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:02,500
started, one of the things I was
pleased to see, is that it 

294
00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:05,700
occurred to me that if I looked 
at things from this Viewpoint, I

295
00:16:05,708 --> 00:16:11,100
might get a little past kind of 
a partisan divide right now that

296
00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:14,600
has devolved into Often a kind 
of scorp making it isn't really 

297
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,500
particularly useful. 
Yeah, I suppose when you say 

298
00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:20,200
something like that it reminds 
me of. 

299
00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:23,300
I think I got this from the 
Daniel Johnson, I Grist, but 

300
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:28,100
that b over nuclear power are 
more symbolic of just a values, 

301
00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:30,300
divide more than actually, the 
science of whether or not 

302
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,300
nuclear is good or not. 
Is that you kind of hinting at? 

303
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,000
Yes. 
And the thing that I would 

304
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:42,100
slightly amend what you said, is
often at their just about values

305
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:44,200
and what you prefer, and that 
sent FID rather than about 

306
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,800
science. 
And that said to dismiss the 

307
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,000
values, But I actually think the
values are really, really 

308
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,600
important, and that the 
discussion would be much more 

309
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,700
useful if it was actually about 
the values rather than the sort 

310
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:58,400
of pretend argument about the 
science. 

311
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:02,300
Yeah, so there's like a proxy 
war. 

312
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:03,900
That's the way Downstream that 
work fighting. 

313
00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:06,000
But you want to go back and be 
like, what kind of role do you 

314
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,700
actually want to create? 
You think we should be talking 

315
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:10,300
on that level? 
Yeah, I mean, the reason that 

316
00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:13,500
people, you know, that I know of
at least don't like, nuclear 

317
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:16,300
power at bottom is not because 
of this or that. 

318
00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:19,300
Radiation counter this or that, 
you know, environmental 

319
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:22,800
footprint. 
It's because they see this as 

320
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,300
this giant facility that's 
tinkering with things that 

321
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:27,700
people just should have a lot 
more. 

322
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:31,400
Humility about got it. 
Yeah, I think that's a very fair

323
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,100
point and that's not a bad idea.
That's not a bad argument to me.

324
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,800
I mean, you know, the, the idea 
that, you know, we need to think

325
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,700
about our or place in the order 
of creation and respected. 

326
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:46,300
That's not a terrible argument. 
But people are afraid to make 

327
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,400
these And spiritual or religious
or moral or whatever, ethical 

328
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,700
whatever word you want to use 
type of arguments. 

329
00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:54,700
And so instead, they Dragged In 
These proxies, as you pointed 

330
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:57,300
out where they say, oh, it's 
unsafe for something. 

331
00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:01,200
When at bottom, even if somehow 
it was proven to be safe, they 

332
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,900
just don't want to go down that 
path and very, similar logic 

333
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,800
applies to GMOs. 
Charles, I remember that I 

334
00:18:08,808 --> 00:18:12,400
wanted to do this and I'm glad I
recalled it, but I think I found

335
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,500
the basically, the perfect 
summation of the Prophet way of 

336
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:18,400
thinking. 
At its most extreme and also if 

337
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,600
it's very neatly in here and I 
don't know if you know this, but

338
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,600
have you read the Call of 
Cthulhu by HP Lovecraft? 

339
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,800
Well, that sentence did not 
ended up. 

340
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:35,100
Like, I expected to, yes, I read
it but a long time ago. 

341
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:37,400
All right, check this out, I 
love this paragraph, it's 

342
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,300
beautiful, and a bit terrifying.
The most merciful thing in the 

343
00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:43,100
world. 
I think, is the inability of the

344
00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:46,400
human mind to correlate all its 
contents we live on a planet. 

345
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,700
The island of ignorance, in the 
midst of black Seas of infinity,

346
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:53,000
and it was not meant that we 
should Voyage far the Sciences. 

347
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,600
Each straining in its own 
Direction. 

348
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,000
Have hitherto harmed us little, 
but someday the piecing together

349
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,000
of dissociated knowledge will 
open up, such terrifying vistas 

350
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,200
of reality and of our frightful 
position. 

351
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,300
They're in that we shall either.
Go mad from the Revelation or 

352
00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:08,800
flee from the deadly light into 
the peace and safety of a new 

353
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,600
Dark Age. 
What do you think of that? 

354
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,300
That's pretty close this. 
Pretty close vintage HP 

355
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:19,800
Lovecraft super overwritten but 
onto something. 

356
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,000
Well yeah that's absolutely 
there. 

357
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,700
There's an ornate nests there 
that is out of fashion. 

358
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:29,000
You could say these days among 
many other things that he 

359
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,300
thought. 
Yeah. 

360
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,600
Yeah. 
No he what I've read that when I

361
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,900
was 17 or 18, and it's certainly
in general left an impression 

362
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:37,900
but obviously I didn't remember 
that paragraph. 

363
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:39,400
Terrific. 
Thanks for sharing it. 

364
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:40,800
Yeah, no. 
Awesome. 

365
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:44,800
Sorry to just basically, add a 
non-diegetic insert there, just 

366
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,200
for my own edification. 
Well, okay, I guess. 

367
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,200
One thing I wanted us to get to 
is when I think about schools of

368
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,900
thought or paradigms, I like to 
think of them kaleidoscopic Ali.

369
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:59,000
I like being able to do I like 
be able to flip through them and

370
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,000
say, okay, if I think about a 
problem this way, it illuminates

371
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,800
this thing, but it also has its 
own blind spot in this way, 

372
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,900
right? 
And I think one of the signs of 

373
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:10,200
intelligence that I look for 
which because I value this, I'm 

374
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,100
sorry. 
Pacing myself it's like that 

375
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:15,100
aside. 
I think that the more those that

376
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:17,600
you can hold oftentimes the 
better off you are and being 

377
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,400
able to understand problems. 
So if we're able to treat the 

378
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,500
wizard in the prophet paradigms 
like kaleidoscopic Lee, treat 

379
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:26,000
them kaleidoscopic Lee? 
What do you think they are 

380
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,100
showing us and what do you think
they are obscuring. 

381
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,500
The thing. 
So you're saying that you know a

382
00:20:31,508 --> 00:20:35,100
point of view is I guess I would
think of it this way is like a 

383
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:38,500
spotlight, it calf intense light
but also Dark Shadows. 

384
00:20:38,500 --> 00:20:42,400
Yes, exactly. 
And in this particular case I 

385
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,400
would say that one of the things
that Wizards often do is make a 

386
00:20:47,408 --> 00:20:53,200
kind of pragmatic case that this
is the way to go because these 

387
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:56,600
features of the prophets 
worldview are counterproductive 

388
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,100
or don't make any sense or will 
make things worse. 

389
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,900
And so you see all the times for
calculations like, if all 

390
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:08,500
farming were organic we would 
produce much less much more land

391
00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:10,500
and it would be an environmental
disaster. 

392
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:14,500
I'm sure you've read things like
that and I want to say to them 

393
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,500
there. 
What's missing here and missing 

394
00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:21,800
from many these things, is that 
the current type of farming, we 

395
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,700
have is a social Arrangement. 
It's been carefully, put 

396
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:28,600
together in some places and 
haphazardly in others, but it 

397
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,200
depends. 
An entire body of Institutions 

398
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,200
and laws and practices and so 
forth that have largely been 

399
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,900
created since the 1940s and 
1950s, there's nothing 

400
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:44,100
inevitable about that. 
So one of the exercises I did is

401
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:48,400
I went to Northwest Illinois, 
and I met this guy who is kind 

402
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,200
of a model profit farmer and his
neighbor is a kind of a model 

403
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,500
wizard farmer and I got them to 
write down all the subsidies of 

404
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:02,100
various types that They were 
eligible for and essentially the

405
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:05,300
wizard farmer, you know, produce
an entire page of different 

406
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:08,900
programs that were devoted to 
helping his kind of farm go and 

407
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:11,600
the prophet type of farmer had 
nothing there. 

408
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,100
He didn't exist as far as the 
state local and federal 

409
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:19,500
governments existed, and The 
Wizard farmer cheerfully 

410
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:21,400
confessed. 
That without all these, you 

411
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,500
know, federal and state and 
local initiatives that he was 

412
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:26,200
embedded in his farm would 
collapse. 

413
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:31,200
So it's very, very difficult. 
Old to make that kind of 

414
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,400
comparison. 
Because theyre, the exist in 

415
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:39,900
such different worlds, and often
the Wizards kind of forget about

416
00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:43,200
the sort of social legal, 
historical, cultural etcetera, 

417
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,500
aspects of this. 
The prophets. 

418
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:51,600
Meanwhile are often quite 
strong, the sort of potential 

419
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,800
risks. 
These things are much less good 

420
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,300
in my view at understanding. 
The kind of nitty-gritty social 

421
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:00,900
changes that would be Required 
to achieve their Vision. 

422
00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:03,900
Again, to talk about the same. 
The fundamental difference as 

423
00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:08,300
far as I could see between the 
organic farm and the farm, there

424
00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:10,300
was next to it. 
The, which was, you know, it was

425
00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:16,100
all GMOs, which is, you know, 
with, with corn and soy, was not

426
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,900
what they're growing not, but 
the different labor or month, 

427
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,700
there were in it. 
The smaller scale, much more 

428
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:26,000
complicated Farm needed. 
Many, many more workers there. 

429
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,900
The one was 1,200 acres and it 
had two workers. 

430
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:32,200
Two million dollars worth of 
equipment and the other one, had

431
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,000
a thousand different crops and 
was recreating natural. 

432
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,100
Ecosystems an amazing place, but
it had 30 different workers. 

433
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,000
And so, the need to pay those 
workers. 

434
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,400
Meant that his prices were very 
high that you couldn't charge 

435
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,900
cheap for this. 
And the reason for that is that 

436
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:51,000
there's a bazillion subsidies 
for agricultural equipment, but 

437
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000
there's a zero subsidies for 
Farm labor. 

438
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,700
And, you know, the fundamental 
difference between them was 

439
00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:57,300
social. 
And I typically think that 

440
00:23:57,300 --> 00:24:02,100
people who Are very embracing in
these don't see how contingent 

441
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:05,700
their successes would be on 
these social historical and 

442
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,800
cultural Arrangements. 
That's an interesting angle. 

443
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,500
I hadn't thought about it in 
that way. 

444
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,000
Yeah, when I get done, I do 
think about profits, they're 

445
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,100
sort of aesthetic, ideal strikes
me very much like the Shire and 

446
00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:19,500
they would like to recreate 
that. 

447
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,600
Yeah, and the thing is that the 
Shire, presumably had a whole 

448
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,900
bunch of Institutions that don't
know what Tolkien was thinking, 

449
00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:29,100
of, presumably, or similar to 
the ones that existed in the 

450
00:24:29,108 --> 00:24:30,800
English Countryside in the 
1920s. 

451
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:33,400
But there's a, there's hundreds 
of years of history that 

452
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:34,800
underlay. 
The fact that the English 

453
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:41,000
Countryside worked in the 1920s.
I think it's very easy for both 

454
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,500
sides to dismiss the others. 
As you know, not being likely to

455
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,600
exist for pragmatic reasons. 
When the real reasons are have 

456
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,100
to do with institutions, there's
no particular reason that we 

457
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:55,800
couldn't if we wanted to 
subsidize Farm labor. 

458
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,000
For example, we subsidize labor 
all the time for example 

459
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:03,100
recently Amazon you know last 
year I think it was wanted to 

460
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:06,700
create its secondary 
headquarters and states and 

461
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,600
cities competed. 
For and they offered Amazon 

462
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,400
millions of dollars and what 
they were essentially doing with

463
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,100
subsidizing, the labor of Amazon
workers some New York offered, 

464
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,900
you know, several billion 
dollars in return would get 

465
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:22,500
50,000 jobs, that's subsidizing 
labor. 

466
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,900
And we do that all the time for 
labor that we've considered to 

467
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:28,400
be valuable. 
It's just the reason that we 

468
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,400
don't do it for agricultural 
laborers, we don't consider it 

469
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,600
to be valuable, but that doesn't
mean that it couldn't be done. 

470
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,100
And if you subsidize the hiring 
of Neighbor. 

471
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,700
The prices from these kind of 
small scale Farms would drop 

472
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:43,500
dramatically and much. 
Poor people could afford the 

473
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:46,600
produce from them, that's a 
fascinating Point. 

474
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,100
What do you call this? 
When there's just a tendency of 

475
00:25:49,108 --> 00:25:52,000
the human mind of you whatever 
is around us that we are 

476
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,100
acculturated into to be natural.
Quote unquote. 

477
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,900
What is the name for this way of
seeing that is clearly? 

478
00:25:58,900 --> 00:26:01,900
Blinding us to how constructed 
our reality actually is. 

479
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,500
Yeah, I don't know what it is. 
I guess there's a possibly is 

480
00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:10,100
related to what the Orion is 
called presentism, which is 

481
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:13,300
judging by the past, by the 
standards of the of the present 

482
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:16,000
and something, you should you 
should avoid but it is. 

483
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,000
There's this idea that these 
things that are around us are 

484
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:23,700
quote unquote natural and but in
fact they've often been 

485
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:26,000
constructed. 
That doesn't mean they're bad, 

486
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:28,700
but it does mean that they can 
be changed if we want to. 

487
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,800
So, no, I'm not advocating that 
we should subsidize Farm labor. 

488
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,600
That that's not the point of the
argument. 

489
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,100
The point of the argument is 
that people who are saying That 

490
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:41,900
this or that is inherently less 
unproductive or inherently less 

491
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:46,500
affordable are missing the point
that there's reasons underneath 

492
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:50,500
that they do to have nothing to 
do with some imagined 

493
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,800
agricultural productivity. 
Sure, I've seen arguments like 

494
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,900
that all over the place. 
Perhaps most famously against 

495
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:01,600
Norman Borlaug is Vandana Shiva 
as work saying, like, like if 

496
00:27:01,608 --> 00:27:04,400
you take and all the ecological 
costs in the subsidies, is this 

497
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,900
actually feeding the world is 
this actually cheaper and Sir, 

498
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:11,500
probably not. 
Yeah, and I would take her 

499
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:13,700
calculations like all these 
calculations with a grain of 

500
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:16,800
salt because it's very difficult
to imagine, you know what, the 

501
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,100
actual cost would be in some 
completely different social 

502
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,200
arrangement. 
Don't know, sir. 

503
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,000
I think that's perfectly fair. 
I'm not sure. 

504
00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:27,300
I don't have the chops necessary
to evaluate these complete 

505
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:29,600
competing, highly technical 
claims either. 

506
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:33,300
So I read these things go. 
Hmm, seems plausible and I just 

507
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:35,100
think you should be skeptical of
them. 

508
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,400
You know what, you know to take 
now, to take this sort of 

509
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,600
undone. 
I Shiva argument about an 

510
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,300
industrial agriculture which is 
essentially saying is that 

511
00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:47,800
there's environmental costs and 
environmental costs are so high 

512
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:49,700
that they wipe out all the 
gains. 

513
00:27:50,500 --> 00:27:54,800
And you can say well there's 
entire literature of economics 

514
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,600
about how to do those kinds of 
external costs are called 

515
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,200
externalities you know the first
textbook on externalities is 

516
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,900
written back in 1918. 
And so there is a whole lot of 

517
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,400
things that you could do that 
would dramatically reduce it. 

518
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,500
For instance, there's all kinds 
of reasons right now, the 

519
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:13,700
farmers way over use fertilizer.
And because it's cheap, and it's

520
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:17,400
cheap because it's been if 
subsidized in all kinds of 

521
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,500
different ways, if it was less 
cheap, Possibly people might 

522
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,600
look at using it more sparingly 
or using it in ways that are 

523
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,800
less likely to cause washout 
into rivers and streams or might

524
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,800
be formulated different or, you 
know, and you can lift a whole 

525
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,300
variety of things. 
There's nothing inherent about 

526
00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:40,700
the way that we do fertilizer 
right now which is one of the 

527
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:42,400
main coffee, right? 
Because it goes, the fertilizer 

528
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,800
goes into their streams and goes
into the rivers and ends up in 

529
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,600
the ocean causes. 
You know, fertilizer in the 

530
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,000
ocean is still fertilizer causes
the Immense Blooms of algae and 

531
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,500
other aquatic plants. 
They drop down to they die. 

532
00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:56,400
They drop down to the bottom 
bacteria. 

533
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,300
Eat them. 
The bacteria multiply in such a 

534
00:28:58,308 --> 00:29:00,300
frenzy. 
They suck all the oxygen and you

535
00:29:00,308 --> 00:29:03,100
get these dead spots. 
There's a one in the Gulf of 

536
00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:05,000
Mexico that's about the size of 
New Jersey. 

537
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,200
There's one in the Bay of 
Bengal. 

538
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,700
It's three times bigger than 
that and that's a huge 

539
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:11,300
environmental cost. 
So I'm done a Shiva is totally 

540
00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:14,200
right about drawing our 
attention to that because when 

541
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,400
we, you know, eater or wonder 
bread or whatever, we're not 

542
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,900
thinking about the fact that 
producing that Wonder Bread. 

543
00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:22,800
Add to this gigantic dead spot 
in the Gulf of Mexico. 

544
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,100
She's dead right about that but 
there's nothing inherent about 

545
00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:29,600
using fertilizer, that 
automatically gets you there. 

546
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:33,600
Okay. 
Yeah, this is great and nuanced 

547
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,100
and thank you for bringing it 
here. 

548
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,100
Charles, I am going to reveal my
bias here and then maybe you can

549
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:44,300
tell me what I'm missing which 
is that Nori as a whole, I'd 

550
00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:45,800
like the company's prime 
minister around. 

551
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,100
The idea that technology can 
help us, solve environmental 

552
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:52,700
crises, notably climate and help
us wrap our heads around that 

553
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,100
helped us, get to a healthy 
level of PPM. 

554
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:59,100
Get that carbon down to a safe 
stable level that we can build 

555
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:01,500
expectations around based upon 
what human life has come to 

556
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:05,200
expect and depend upon. 
Then I was watching planet of 

557
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,700
the humans, too. 
As I had to because everyone was

558
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:09,100
yelling and saying not to watch 
this movie. 

559
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:12,500
So, of course, I had to watch it
immediately and because that's 

560
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:14,200
just the way that the brain 
works. 

561
00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:17,300
And there's a line in there, 
that always bothers me, which is

562
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,900
paraphrasing here that the same 
way of thinking that got us into

563
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:23,100
this problem. 
Cannot get us out of it and it 

564
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:25,700
was applied to embrace 
technology but it was posing as 

565
00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:28,200
rhetorical fashion. 
That was, can we use the same 

566
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,500
technology that got us into this
problem to get us out and meet 

567
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,000
at Holmes? 
Yes, yes, we absolutely have to 

568
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,900
because we can't just walk away 
from this. 

569
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,200
Like there's already a certain 
amount of warming that's locked 

570
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,800
in. 
We have to start pulling carbon 

571
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,500
dioxide out of the atmosphere. 
We can't just Retreat and then 

572
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:47,200
go to hobbiton and do our like 
liver a little permaculture 

573
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,800
live. 
That's a great thing to do, but 

574
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,200
we also need, like, large-scale 
technology to make that sort of 

575
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,300
profits lifestyle even possible.
At this point, what am I 

576
00:30:55,308 --> 00:30:58,500
missing? 
So, first, I'm not gonna argue 

577
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,300
with you. 
What's wrong about the argument,

578
00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:03,800
you know the same technology, 
it's not the same technology, 

579
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:06,000
you know, the kind of things 
that you're talking about, 

580
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:10,300
Carbon eating and photovoltaic 
panels and windmills and, you 

581
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:14,500
know, power lines that don't 
waste 50% of their power and 

582
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:16,400
resistance and all that. 
That's not the technology they 

583
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,100
got is into the problem. 
The technology they got us into 

584
00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:23,800
the problem is coal-fired power 
plants and we're dramatically 

585
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,600
reducing their number. 
So to me, it's like you're 

586
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,500
saying, like, you're allergic to
apples, so, therefore, you 

587
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:34,600
shouldn't be eating oranges, you
know, it's it's a nonsensical 

588
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:37,800
statement. 
So, So that part I'm not going 

589
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,800
to disagree with you. 
What I would argue is both sides

590
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,600
involved that this living in 
hobbiton, in a modern sense 

591
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,000
involves all kinds of technology
and it's just different kinds of

592
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,900
Technology right now. 
You know, if you put solar 

593
00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:56,200
panels and all the roofs and in 
those little ones in the 

594
00:31:56,208 --> 00:31:59,600
backyards and you made them much
more efficient and you develop 

595
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,100
methods of localized storage, 
you know which are the sort of 

596
00:32:03,108 --> 00:32:06,400
idea that Elon Musk talks about 
when you say the, you would Or 

597
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,300
in his batteries I just don't 
think we know how much that 

598
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:14,500
could do you know right now the 
most efficient solar panels are 

599
00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:17,900
on the order of I think about 48
percent is the incident 

600
00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:21,100
radiation coming in right now. 
They're very, very expensive 

601
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,900
because we don't choose to 
subsidize them. 

602
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,200
You know, there are lots and 
lots of things in our society 

603
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,400
that we choose to subsidize. 
If we wanted to, we could choose

604
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,600
to subsidize that we could kick 
up a lot more on the research 

605
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,400
into how to switch power back 
and forth. 

606
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,100
We could kick out. 
We could subsidize To this end, 

607
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:40,700
you know, we could get a lot of 
the way towards hobbiton, if we 

608
00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:42,700
wanted to, it would be 
difficult. 

609
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:44,400
But all paths are going to be 
difficult. 

610
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,800
Doing the other kind of path, 
you know, where we construct 

611
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,500
large scale, centralized 
installations, and somehow send 

612
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:52,300
the power all around, like, you 
know, that square mile and they 

613
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:56,800
in the Sonoran Desert. 
That's also extremely difficult.

614
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,400
So I just feel that we just 
don't know. 

615
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:03,500
And one of the things that I, if
you don't mind me, I'm going to 

616
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:05,600
give this a little bit of a 
tangent is okay, if I go on it, 

617
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,200
please do. 
Okay, I feel that the role of 

618
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,200
ignorance is insufficiently 
appreciated. 

619
00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:14,500
There are lots of things. 
We simply don't know whether we 

620
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:17,600
can do, and that means, we don't
know that it's now possible, or 

621
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,600
they don't know if there is 
possible and all we can really 

622
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,200
say is that we could actually go
quite a bit of the ways towards 

623
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:25,800
hobbiton, if we wanted to do 
that. 

624
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,700
Or we could go quite a bit in 
the opposite direction if we 

625
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:34,100
wanted to do that. 
And we don't really know because

626
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:35,500
we can't predict the future. 
What? 

627
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:37,500
The fundamental So consequences 
would be. 

628
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:43,300
And so, I tend to get upset or 
annoyed when I hear people 

629
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:46,200
saying the great confidence this
or that is not possible because 

630
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,700
I think the answer is, we just 
simply don't know, and it all 

631
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:52,900
comes back to that gigantic 
Lovecraft quote, that I forced 

632
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:56,100
into this episode. 
Yeah. 

633
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,600
I think, I think humility is 
underappreciated all over the 

634
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,400
place and we try to do that. 
Like, basically the number of 

635
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000
things that I hold with any 
degree of certainty, shrinks as 

636
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,500
I Older, are you that way too? 
Yeah, I mean you know one of the

637
00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:13,800
things that this also tells me 
though is that because he don't 

638
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,400
appreciate under understand. 
You know we're very lousy at 

639
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,000
predicting the future. 
We should maybe both sides 

640
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,500
should be a little bit less 
dogmatic and we should 

641
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:27,100
investigate what you can do with
very, very small scale and 

642
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:29,699
Nooks. 
For example, I don't think we 

643
00:34:29,707 --> 00:34:32,199
know the consequences, well 
enough to for anything. 

644
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:36,500
Either side to similarly, we 
should look at what GMO Is can 

645
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:39,600
do. 
We should also try to see how 

646
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,199
much can we get with 
neighborhood. 

647
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:42,600
Solar. 
You know, why not? 

648
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,600
Why not really kick it up and 
run some serious demonstrations 

649
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,400
of the best technique because 
that's neighborhood solar 

650
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,800
technology. 
We can and see what we get. 

651
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,800
I think that's a fine way to go.
Think we need all the 

652
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,400
experiments and all the best we 
can. 

653
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:58,000
So right, you know, it wouldn't 
be so hard with neighborhoods. 

654
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,700
You know. 
My wife is an architect and 

655
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:03,400
designer, and she's very 
interested in sustainability. 

656
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:09,100
And so she's been building these
Small-scale near Net, Zero 

657
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:12,100
Energy homes. 
There should be some way for her

658
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:17,300
to to programs you could apply 
to to convert them into totally 

659
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,000
neighborhood locally, powered, 
rinse and see how that worked. 

660
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,900
It seems fine to me II would say
no gives to build a little 

661
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:26,300
version of hobbiton now look at 
it. 

662
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,000
Yeah. 
Charles one of the applications 

663
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,500
of your idea is that we played 
with in the the Nori patreon 

664
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:37,400
book club is Is to what degree 
does this? 

665
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,300
Apply on to, how one lives one's
personal life? 

666
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,800
And I ended up seizing Upon A 
Passage. 

667
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,300
I really like it's the most 
famous passage from Adam, 

668
00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:46,800
Smith's theory of moral 
sentiments. 

669
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,400
It's called the poor man's son. 
Are you familiar with that? 

670
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:54,200
But I read the book in college. 
So, so the answer is, I should 

671
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,600
be more familiar with it than I 
actually am. 

672
00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:00,600
Yeah, I was might be worth 
revisiting this section. 

673
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,300
It's definitely the most famous,
and it's beautiful. 

674
00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,400
It starts with the poor man's 
son, whom heaven, and it's anger

675
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,900
has visited With ambition, think
it's such a powerful opening but

676
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:14,300
I'm Smith sees ambition in this 
desire to get rich as a form of 

677
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:18,200
a curse, granted the person and 
the process of trying to get 

678
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,900
rich develops, many instruments 
and technological advances. 

679
00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:25,200
That makes our lives better. 
But this sort of burden of 

680
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,100
ambition doesn't necessarily 
produce the most livable or 

681
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,400
life. 
One could say, for instance, I 

682
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,200
don't personally want to be Elon
Musk. 

683
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:36,000
I don't want to live in the 
same. 

684
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:37,200
Same name. 
It's funny. 

685
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:40,100
Grant will y'all? 
Yeah, I'm glad he's a father now

686
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:42,800
and that's great. 
Immigrants have better. 

687
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,500
Coping is like six other kids 
Cheese Louise. 

688
00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:48,000
Oh and that's who I guess. 
Yeah, I guess I was just caught 

689
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,100
my imagination but give that 
life seems is so demand. 

690
00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:55,300
Like, basically, I'm relatively 
Prophet asked, I don't expect to

691
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:58,000
be remembered very long, 
especially not people very far 

692
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,800
removed from my own family, I'm 
relatively. 

693
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,800
Okay, with that, I think the 
most important thing, most 

694
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,000
people will do is raise children
that are halfway decent. 

695
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,800
It kind people, I think that's 
great and I have the same 

696
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,400
Ambitions myself. 
Anything I get above that is 

697
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,800
just sort of happenstance but I 
am so glad that there are Elon 

698
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,800
musk's out there because it's a 
form of human sacrifice. 

699
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Ambition is the sort of like 
wizardly developing new things 

700
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:24,200
that we need that. 
But I think they lay themselves 

701
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,600
at the altar for the benefit of 
humanity by their own curse. 

702
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,300
Of this ambition, is that 
halfway makes sense to you. 

703
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:34,400
Yeah, you know, and I should I 
guess in fitting their theme 

704
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,400
point out that on the opposite. 
Side, you know, Bill McKibben 

705
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,700
has sort of wrecked his life to 
lead. 

706
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:43,900
Three fifty.org, you know, I 
know I'm very slightly and I can

707
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:46,100
tell you, he does not enjoy 
being a blip public and 

708
00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:48,800
political figure, you know, it's
not fun for him. 

709
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,500
He's doing it because he 
believes it by the way that 

710
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:54,400
documentary that we were talking
about that was something that 

711
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,700
really annoyed me about it. 
The idea that bill has a 

712
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,200
corporate sellout, I've 
disagreed with him. 

713
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,700
Plenty. 
Sometimes he's been so mad at 

714
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:01,700
me. 
We haven't spoken. 

715
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,100
But geez, the idea that he's not
a figure of huge Integrity is 

716
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:08,300
completely ridiculous. 
He's kind of sacrificed his life

717
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:12,600
in exactly the same way to try 
to create a political movement 

718
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,900
for fighting climate change and 
I think that's an, you know, 

719
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:18,400
again with the theme of social 
and political Arrangements. 

720
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,300
That's absolutely necessary. 
No politicians going to stick 

721
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:23,800
their neck out to do it unless 
there's a lot of constituents 

722
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,000
who are behind it and he they 
have to show it and 

723
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:30,000
organizations like three 
fifty.org or for that, that's 

724
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,200
great. 
That's a great additional 

725
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,700
example to from a totally 
different angle. 

726
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,100
So yeah, I don't know that I 
would want to. 

727
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,800
Change places with any of those 
people. 

728
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,700
That sounds very stressful. 
Everyone scrutinizes. 

729
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:44,100
Everything you do and to calls 
you a bad person, doesn't sound 

730
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:46,900
dumb. 
You know, people call McKibben, 

731
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:49,700
you know, you know, you've his 
ideas refer to the flu at all 

732
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:51,600
die and this sort of thing, 
right? 

733
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,000
It can't be pleasant. 
No, no. 

734
00:38:54,300 --> 00:38:57,300
Well, I guess one thing that's 
comforting and in the darkest of

735
00:38:57,300 --> 00:39:00,300
ways is your relationship with 
Lynn morghulis. 

736
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,500
That's one thing that we haven't
even gotten here but what it is,

737
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:08,100
what by the way, what was that? 
Like And also does this Wizard 

738
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:11,500
and profit Dynamic, even make 
sense in the face of her 

739
00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:13,800
insights, which, what even were 
then, you know? 

740
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:17,500
So, that was part of the reason 
I included her because she's, 

741
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:19,300
like, a Critic of the entire 
thing. 

742
00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:23,200
I wanted to incorporate the idea
that there is perspectives from 

743
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,500
which everything I'm talking 
about just as stupid and doesn't

744
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:29,400
isn't even worth considering. 
So her point of view is the 

745
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,100
marcoses famous biologist, 
right? 

746
00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:34,700
Famous. 
Especially for her contributions

747
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:37,400
to understanding the microworld 
of in viruses and protests and 

748
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,400
all these other different tiny 
creatures. 

749
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:43,600
And from her point of view, 
which is pretty justifiable 

750
00:39:43,900 --> 00:39:45,500
there. 
What's important about life on 

751
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:51,400
Earth there, 99% of the biomass 
99% of the, you know, sort of 

752
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,400
evolutionary creativity in terms
of, you know, the genetic 

753
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,600
variability, they're just 
amazing. 

754
00:39:56,900 --> 00:40:01,300
And so people are like this 
epiphenomena and the point of 

755
00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:03,000
view is there just a species 
like any other. 

756
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,000
They're like protozoa, not two 
fundamentally different and 

757
00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:08,500
Argue that this is Darwin's key 
Insight. 

758
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,000
You know, Darwin talked about 
Evolution. 

759
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,300
But before you could talk about 
Evolution, you had to have the 

760
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:14,600
idea that there is a single set 
of laws that applied to 

761
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,000
everything. 
No exceptions. 

762
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:19,400
You know, it's not like dogs 
have special rules, that apply 

763
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,400
only to them. 
Evolution applies, to everything

764
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,000
including us. 
We're just part of nature. 

765
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:26,200
Just another species among all 
the others. 

766
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,200
And one of the other rules is 
that species, that are 

767
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,000
inordinately successful don't 
live very long because they, 

768
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:37,600
either wipe themselves out or 
they'd Drown in their own waste,

769
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,000
the exhaust, their own resources
or all three. 

770
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,300
So she saw that as happening to 
humans and the idea of both 

771
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:47,500
Wizards and Prophets are arguing
about ways to save us, if you 

772
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:50,100
don't think that you can be 
saved because of the laws of 

773
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:52,000
nature. 
Say, no, then, it's sort of 

774
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,500
stupid. 
Do you have an argument between 

775
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:58,700
them on the one hand? 
I like that. 

776
00:40:58,700 --> 00:41:02,600
She just out past the miss the 
prophets in the most serious of 

777
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,100
ways. 
But also I find it kind of 

778
00:41:04,107 --> 00:41:06,500
comforting to feel like it takes
the pressure off the Race a 

779
00:41:06,508 --> 00:41:08,800
little bit here like whenever 
you zoom out and think deep 

780
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,700
time, it really calms me. 
She regarded me as a sort of a 

781
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:16,700
Sentimental sap, you know, 
reading books about polar bears 

782
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:22,400
in the like, right. 
And she thought that, you know, 

783
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:24,200
we're completely deluded. 
If we thought that we were 

784
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,900
special, she liked to say this. 
I mean, I didn't know her well, 

785
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,000
but she would always, she knew 
me well enough to prick my 

786
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,700
bubble whenever she could. 
She do you think we're special 

787
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:36,100
somehow a different species from
everybody? 

788
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,400
Else how nice it must be to be 
you, you know, that kind of 

789
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,700
thing. 
And if you look at it her way, 

790
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:45,600
you can say, well, we're 
conducting. 

791
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,400
This gigantic experiment now to 
find out if we're just a few, 

792
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,900
she's like everything else or if
we are actually capable of 

793
00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:56,200
changing in ways that no other 
species can, she would say as a 

794
00:41:56,207 --> 00:41:58,700
betting person, the odds that 
she would say, the odds are very

795
00:41:58,700 --> 00:41:59,900
definitely, they were not 
special. 

796
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,100
Nah, this is a favorite theme of
the show to we get into the 

797
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:06,100
Fermi Paradox and whether or not
this is a great filter. 

798
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,700
Other event and whether human 
beings will supersede this sort 

799
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:12,400
of challenge. 
I hope so, the reason I do, what

800
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,600
I do is I hope we're able to do 
it but there is a chance that 

801
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,200
Lynn is correct and we're just 
following the pace set by every 

802
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,600
other creature that has been so 
successful that it's killed 

803
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:27,300
things off, right? 
And I think though that if you 

804
00:42:27,300 --> 00:42:31,700
were around and we were talking 
now that even she would say that

805
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:35,100
if we were successful that 
really would mean we are special

806
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,300
That would be an astounding 
thing. 

807
00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:42,000
The totally would be if we 
really cool, right? 

808
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:44,900
You know, if success is not 
given than to actually be 

809
00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:46,500
successful, will be just 
awesome. 

810
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,300
Yeah, I think so. 
Well, Charles, we didn't even 

811
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:55,200
get to talk to your other books 
and 1491 in 1493, which I have 

812
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,000
read in the last year. 
I read both of them made a 

813
00:42:58,008 --> 00:43:02,000
really big impression to I like 
this focus on. 

814
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:05,300
Well, one thing that's come up 
quite a lot inside of nori and 

815
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:08,700
also in the book club, is this 
idea that Native Americans are 

816
00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:11,800
this sort of noble savage, this 
romantic idea of them as 

817
00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:14,600
interacting with this primeval 
force and not changing it. 

818
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,200
And now, of course, we know and 
your work has documented the 

819
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,500
degree to which humans have an 
indigenous people in particular 

820
00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:24,800
have shaped these environments. 
So I think that's a really cool 

821
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,100
Insight. 
I'm wondering like bigger than 

822
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:28,700
that. 
Is there some connection between

823
00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:31,700
your work on indigenous peoples 
and the Columbian Exchange and 

824
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:34,100
also Wizards and Prophets like 
what is the connection? 

825
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,700
Well I thought of these two 
books, mentally, I mean I should

826
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:41,500
first say I'm kind of 
embarrassed to talk about this 

827
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,400
and I was hoping you wouldn't 
bring it up because again he is 

828
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,500
going to sound really 
pretentious and the reason is 

829
00:43:50,508 --> 00:43:53,400
going to sound pretentious is 
that it actually is pretentious.

830
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,800
I got to know what this is so I 
apologize in advance. 

831
00:43:57,900 --> 00:44:04,100
I thought of these books as a 
Trilogy or any bad bad that does

832
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:06,900
not necessarily bad. 
Oh yeah, right. 

833
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:12,700
It's everybody wants to read a 
Trilogy in the the first one in 

834
00:44:12,700 --> 00:44:16,100
their past present and future, 
you know, sort of the past 

835
00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:20,500
represented by 1491 about the 
world that was created the 

836
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,600
present, being the 1493, which 
is this, you know, ricocheting 

837
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:28,600
of environmental consequences 
around the world and then the 

838
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,500
future, which is, you know, how 
we're going to get out of the 

839
00:44:31,508 --> 00:44:34,800
situation that we're in, which 
is what's discussed in the 

840
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,700
wizard in there. 
And the prophet. 

841
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:39,700
But unlike normal, trilogies 
they don't say, one, two, and 

842
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:41,500
three, and you can read them all
in any order. 

843
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:46,200
That's cool. 
So okay, I guess that makes 

844
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,900
sense to me because you're 
saying that the world that we 

845
00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:51,200
live in from 1493 in the 
Columbian Exchange. 

846
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,300
When you have various organisms 
Crossing giant barriers that had

847
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:56,800
never previously been superseded
in a large way. 

848
00:44:56,900 --> 00:44:58,600
That's still the world. 
We're living in right now. 

849
00:44:58,800 --> 00:44:59,400
Right. 
Right. 

850
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:00,900
And it's a world of 
globalization. 

851
00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:03,800
So one of the funny things is 
that, you know, there's these 

852
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,300
various protests against 
globalization And I'm sort of 

853
00:45:06,308 --> 00:45:09,800
thinking man, you're locking the
door and like 500 years. 

854
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,600
After that particular horse has 
been stolen. 

855
00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:16,000
You know, we're living in a 
globalized world and the current

856
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,300
president, you know, trying to 
stop that just, you know, who 

857
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:23,500
are you kidding? 
Fair enough. 

858
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,700
And then so our choices for the 
future is whether we follow a 

859
00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:32,400
wizardly or Prophet asked kind 
of path or maybe some hybrid is 

860
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,200
what is the chance that we have 
in front of us? 

861
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,200
Oh yeah, we can decide. 
I mean, there's nothing because 

862
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,100
these are all human regions. 
There's nothing that says that 

863
00:45:40,107 --> 00:45:42,300
you couldn't combine parts of 
the Wizards, and the prophets. 

864
00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:44,200
Uh, I'm sorry we're dealing with
laws of physics. 

865
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,800
You know, I can certainly invent
scenarios more, you know, 

866
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,900
greater or lesser possibility 
that would combine them. 

867
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:55,100
But, you know, people seem to 
typically fall onto one end or 

868
00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:57,600
another of this particular 
Spectrum. 

869
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,900
But it could be different. 
And, you know, I guess a little 

870
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:03,800
bit in the background mind. 
I hoped that reading it all sort

871
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,500
of black-and-white my book would
Spire the reader to think about 

872
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:08,800
ways of escaping that particular
Paradigm. 

873
00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:13,200
How are you feeling? 
You personally yourself Charles?

874
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,300
See man. 
Are you feeling more wizardly or

875
00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:16,600
more like a profit? 
These days? 

876
00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:20,100
Oh boy. 
I guess the certainly, I'm 

877
00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:24,500
feeling both because you're 
seeing in the current crisis of 

878
00:46:24,508 --> 00:46:29,300
the coronavirus, the necessity 
for both science and community. 

879
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:35,900
In the sense that we really need
to come up with some If advances

880
00:46:35,900 --> 00:46:39,200
and test them properly and 
rapidly disseminate them. 

881
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:42,600
And that's going to be very 
difficult to do without some 

882
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,600
kinds of centralized controls. 
But then, while we're doing 

883
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,600
that, we also need to have 
functioning communities in which

884
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,900
we all look out for each other. 
So, here's a case where which 

885
00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:55,400
both are needed and you see 
people sort of splitting into 

886
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,000
this kind of funny thing where 
people are focusing, either on 

887
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,600
the community measures or saying
there's going to be, you know, 

888
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,100
treatments and vaccines. 
And so we don't have to worry. 

889
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:12,000
Yeah I suppose so and it appears
that you know the wizard and the

890
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,500
prophet as a set of paradigms 
for understanding these 

891
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,100
decisions goes far beyond just 
environmental ones. 

892
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:21,000
It just seems like maybe this is
much broader than that. 

893
00:47:22,300 --> 00:47:25,400
I think so that weenies are, you
know, in you can find Echoes of 

894
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,100
this, you know, Alexander 
Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson's 

895
00:47:29,100 --> 00:47:33,000
famous arguments about whether 
the revenue management located 

896
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,400
in the city or the country, 
right? 

897
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:36,200
Sure. 
Yeah. 

898
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,400
I could see him walk forces and 
full Terror versus Russo. 

899
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,500
These are these are modern 
versions of philosophical 

900
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:45,900
disputes have been going on for 
centuries. 

901
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:48,900
Yeah, I love that. 
I think this is such a good way 

902
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:51,000
to teach these Concepts into 
play with them. 

903
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,200
And I think this is, if I was 
trying to bring someone into 

904
00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:56,900
like the environmental space, I 
think this is a very useful 

905
00:47:56,900 --> 00:48:00,000
rubric and also your ristic for 
testing how people like, what 

906
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,700
their inbuilt assumptions and 
values, are I think it's a great

907
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:06,700
tool for doing so. 
So kudos for that. 

908
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,300
Well, thank you. 
Yeah, my pleasure. 

909
00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:12,100
Well, Charles, if someone wanted
to keep up with your work, 

910
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,000
obviously, they should read your
Masterpiece here, Trilogy, your 

911
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,300
pretentious Trilogy, it's not 
that bad. 

912
00:48:18,300 --> 00:48:20,900
That wasn't that wasn't the most
grandiose thing I've ever heard 

913
00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:23,300
on this show. 
I probably said, worse myself. 

914
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:28,000
So don't be too hard on 
yourself, but how should someone

915
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,400
keep up with your work? 
Oh, I don't know. 

916
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:33,300
I'm working on another book and 
when it comes out, you could buy

917
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:35,700
it. 
Hardcover. 

918
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:38,000
People really, really help this 
guy out. 

919
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,800
Yeah, exactly. 
I'm by my and apparently now 

920
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,000
what they want you to do is bite
all the first week so that it, 

921
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,000
you know, Rockets up the, the 
bestseller list it there. 

922
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,400
I was told by my publisher 
recently that I hadn't really 

923
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,200
thought about it. 
But pre-orders, an Amazon, he 

924
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,100
said our gold is that right? 
That's good to know. 

925
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:01,200
Are you able to tell us tease us
a little bit with what it might 

926
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,500
be about? 
Yeah, it's a personal thing. 

927
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,000
Thing for me related to stuff, 
I'd done before we personal my 

928
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,800
rope 1491. 
It was originally supposed to 

929
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,700
have another final chapter about
the North American West. 

930
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,400
That's where I grew up miss an 
area that has, you know, 

931
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,400
obviously special personal 
meaning to me, the kind of out 

932
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,800
the Deep history of the West. 
And when I outlined it, the 

933
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,100
outline for the chapter was 
longer than all the other 

934
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:29,800
chapters, you know, do the 
unwritten and I tried to cut it 

935
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,100
down and just didn't work, so 
you ended up, cutting it out 

936
00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:34,500
completely and papering 
together. 

937
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:37,400
And if you look very carefully 
at the end of 1491, you'll see 

938
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,400
that it's, you can still see the
sutures and the scars where I 

939
00:49:40,408 --> 00:49:41,800
sort of laughed together, an 
end. 

940
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:45,700
And this been sticking in my 
mind and I finally thought, well

941
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:49,300
I'll see what I got. 
And last year, I wrote out a 

942
00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:52,700
link the outline and I realized 
wait this actually is a book of 

943
00:49:52,700 --> 00:49:56,000
its own and it's about trying to
consider the West in terms of 

944
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,000
its future as part of its 
ancient history. 

945
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,200
You know, they're what we know 
about the West I mean without 

946
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,100
going into too much prediction 
is that What's going to be 

947
00:50:05,107 --> 00:50:06,600
hotter and drier than it is 
today? 

948
00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:12,500
We know that it's going to be 
roughly 40 percent Hispanic and 

949
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:14,600
you know, something like 8% 
Asian. 

950
00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:19,400
And we know that water issues 
are going to be really really 

951
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,900
important. 
And we also know this is 

952
00:50:21,900 --> 00:50:26,400
probably the most quote-unquote 
controversy Jose, the 274 

953
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,800
federally recognized tribes in 
the west are going to gain more 

954
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,100
and more sovereignty and that's 
the trajectory they've been on 

955
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:38,000
since the 1960s. 
And so in 2050 or something like

956
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,400
that, there will be essentially 
almost 300 small nations in the 

957
00:50:42,408 --> 00:50:45,800
West in this time of 
environmental conversion and 

958
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,400
tremendous mixing. 
So the conventional history of 

959
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,400
the West which involves you 
know, the frontier and people 

960
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,600
coming in from the East and 
nature being tamed in the west 

961
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,800
essentially disappearing. 
Just doesn't seem very relevant 

962
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,700
to that and so it's a history of
the what the West might be in 

963
00:51:01,700 --> 00:51:03,600
the future. 
I love it. 

964
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,300
I want you back on the show to 
talk about it. 

965
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:08,300
We can even time it so it helps 
with your publisher. 

966
00:51:08,300 --> 00:51:13,100
Oh gee, thanks. 
I'm from Arizona and have a lot 

967
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:15,700
of affection for the Southwest 
spend, so much time out there. 

968
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,000
I am very interested in this. 
I can't wait when I might this 

969
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,800
come out. 
Well, I'm hoping it would be 

970
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,400
next year. 
Sometime probably a year and a 

971
00:51:23,408 --> 00:51:26,000
half from now. 
Yeah, book publishing with their

972
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,100
long lead times. 
Well, this is actually good 

973
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:31,800
though because if you think 
about it, what it means is it 

974
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,400
forces you to try And imagine 
something and to write 

975
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,800
something, you have some value 
you know the beyond the 

976
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,300
immediate that's a good point. 
Yeah. 

977
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:40,500
That makes me feel better about 
it. 

978
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:45,100
I'm hoping you know that I wrote
1491 it was published in 2005 

979
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:47,900
and it's kind of tickled to hear
that you read it last year and 

980
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:50,100
had some value to you. 
I thought wow you know it's 

981
00:51:50,100 --> 00:51:53,300
sticking around a little bit 
yeah that thing holds up as far 

982
00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:57,000
as I can tell, it's great and 
then you're also on Twitter, see

983
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:57,700
that? 
Yeah. 

984
00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:01,300
It's a, what is your handle 
their Charles? 

985
00:52:01,300 --> 00:52:03,000
See, man, that's right. 
Man. 

986
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,600
Yeah, all of these links will be
in the show notes. 

987
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,300
If you'd like to buy Charles's 
books or follow him on Twitter. 

988
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:13,500
It's our website to it's 
actually down and then always 

989
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:16,800
download is taking of tinkering 
around, turn around with it, my 

990
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:22,400
expiration, my website expired 
for, I don't know, an hour and 

991
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,300
the domain snatcher got it up. 
So I have to deal with it, which

992
00:52:25,300 --> 00:52:27,000
I will do, as soon as I finish 
this drink of the book. 

993
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:29,300
Okay. 
Yeah, good. 

994
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,200
Good luck. 
I'll keep my eyes peeled into. 

995
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,400
This is It happens when, when 
you are just a person in your, 

996
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,000
in your fighting algorithms. 
Yeah. 

997
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,900
Oh wow. 
There's a man versus technology.

998
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,400
There you go. 
Yuri unsuccessfully versus 

999
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,500
technology. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1000
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:47,100
You lost. 
You got Sky netted. 

1001
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,200
Oops. 
Well, thanks for being here. 

1002
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,700
Charles I was a lot of fun. 
I learned a lot and thanks for 

1003
00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:55,000
stimulating. 
My mind. 

1004
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,100
And also, the patron book group 
is grateful for giving us such 

1005
00:52:59,100 --> 00:53:01,100
fruitful terrain for which to 
March over. 

1006
00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:03,500
So thank you. 
Well, it's my pleasure. 

1007
00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:05,800
That's the wrote the book in the
hopes that would do. 

1008
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,700
And so thank you very much for 
the kind words, my pleasure. 

1009
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,400
And if you would like to show, 
please rate review us on iTunes 

1010
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,500
or a podcast Stitcher pod Bean, 
where are you listening to 

1011
00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:16,900
shows? 
And thank you so much for 

1012
00:53:16,900 --> 00:53:23,600
listening, but thank you so much
for listening. 

1013
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,000
If you like the show, please 
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1014
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,200
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1015
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,000
this content to a wider 
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1016
00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:33,600
If you think what we're doing 
is, Interesting fun. 

1017
00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:35,900
Hopefully all three. 
We certainly appreciate your 

1018
00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:38,200
rating and review. 
You can keep up with Nori at nor

1019
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,400
e.com where there is a 
newsletter that's Nori 

1020
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,400
.com/srobiyt. 
There's podcast, there's a whole

1021
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,100
bunch else or you can send us an
email at podcast at nor e.com. 

1022
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:51,200
We are also now on patreon at 
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1023
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,200
if you'd like more content 
engagement and community and 

1024
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:55,900
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