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Subscribe, and thank you so much
for listening to another season 

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of reversing climate change. 
Hello and welcome to reversing 

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climate. 
I'm Ross, Kenyan, Paul gamble 

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CEO of nori and one of my fellow
co-founders is here with me. 

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Hi Paul. 
Hey Rosco. 

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Hello. 
We have the distinct pleasure of

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having Matthew yglesias on 
today, co-founder of box host of

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the podcast, the weeds writer 
journalist and author of 1 

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billion, Americans, the case for
thinking bigger. 

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Hey, Matt hello. 
Hello. 

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Thanks for coming on the show. 
We're so happy to have you. 

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I'm really glad to be here. 
Yes, indeed. 

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Well, this book we We have 
thoughts about it. 

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We care about this issue a lot. 
We think it's really important, 

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we like that. 
You tried to thread a very 

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unique needle on it and we were 
thinking that maybe the best way

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to get started is if you could 
run us through the basics of 

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what you're trying to accomplish
with it. 

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Okay. 
So the point of 1 billion 

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Americans is that there should 
be 1 billion Americans, you 

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know, and so you can say, like, 
why why 1 billion Americans yet?

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Basic reason, look, we have a 
world of sort of Growing 

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geopolitical competition with 
China in particular, to an 

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extent. 
India coming up there, too. 

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It's because we finally have 
rapid population growth in some 

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very large countries that have 
historically been quite poor. 

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This is mostly good. 
It has reduced poverty around 

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the world. 
You know, it's something to 

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celebrate but the sort of dream 
of the 90s that economic growth 

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in China would lead to 
liberalization and 

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democratization and an Embrace 
of a All based Global Order that

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is totally not happened. 
And no, American political 

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leaders are saying, oh, that's 
fine. 

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We'll just be number two. 
Let's submit to Chinese 

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hegemony, but they're also known
talk. 

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Realistically about what you're 
going to do about it, right? 

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So like Obama said well we need 
to win the future with I don't 

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know what it was. 
Like some grant for people to 

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get technical education and 
Community College but she don't 

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think it's a fine idea, we 
should do that but it's 

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ridiculous. 
Compared to the scale of the 

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problem. 
Trump was like, maybe going to 

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ban Tick-Tock or then now maybe 
he won't. 

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And, you know, maybe we should 
maybe we shouldn't. 

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But taking on China's video, me 
maps is like not it's not going 

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to get it done, you know, if we 
think about the fundamentals, 

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it's like, you know, China is 
about Mexico in terms of per 

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capita living standards, maybe 
Bulgaria depending on how you 

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look at it better food than 
Bulgaria, though. 

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So maybe closer to Mexico and 
that sense. 

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But there's this huge great 
power Because there's 1.2 

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billion Chinese people, so I 
say, let's Embrace yellow. 

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You look historically right the 
United States really big deal in

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the world Canada, nice country, 
not a big deal. 

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Why? 
We're big deal because we have 

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10 times their population and we
have 10 times the population 

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because our leaders historically
made it a priority to get people

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to move here and so I think we 
should look going forward. 

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We should support families with 
children. 

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We should do more in terms. 
Of paid leave and terms 

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preschool in terms of child 
allowance so that people can 

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have two to three kids per 
family. 

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Which is what they say they want
instead of one or two, which is 

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what they actually have right 
now. 

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And we should be more open to 
immigration and we should see 

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this as the real American 
greatness. 

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Agenda is to grow the 
population. 

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We're not obviously going to 
triple it overnight because it 

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takes time to build houses of 
things, but we should aim for 

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aggressive population growth 
rather than settling for for 

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stagnation and National Decline.
And that is the book and this is

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usually when people start 
yelling at me about climate 

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change. 
So, oh yeah. 

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I'm going to save that 
Downstream or just a little bit.

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I really like about this book 
that you state your assumptions 

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and your values, very close to 
up front and the book which I 

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find is weirdly uncommon. 
So I do admire that, but you 

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chose to frame this book in 
geopolitical, terms about world 

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leadership and competition 
between countries. 

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Which I associate you in boxes, 
being a relatively Progressive 

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outfit, but that doesn't seem to
be something that we think of, 

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in fact, sometimes I think of 
the left, I almost get the sense

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that they wouldn't mind at the 
United States gave up its World 

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hegemon status. 
So I don't know. 

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How is it reaction been to this 
portion of it. 

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How did you land there? 
Well, so if I took can play 

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psychiatrist, I think a lot of 
people on the left would be more

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comfortable with a world in 
which They themselves lived in a

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country that was more, like, 
Canada or New Zealand or 

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Denmark. 
Like like a country that just 

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doesn't have hegemonic 
aspirations. 

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They're not comfortable with 
that aspect of the American 

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national project and so they 
don't like to talk about it at 

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the same time when you kind of 
Bear Down, are there people in 

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America who say will be better 
if China was hegemonic? 

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Would it be better if we had a 
global Military? 

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Hegemon, they cared even Less 
about human rights in the United

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States. 
That was more autocratic more 

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racist and like, no, right. 
Nobody actually thinks that it's

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just also not something that 
Progressive minded people want 

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to embrace. 
And, you know, I had a professor

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a long time ago by the name of 
Glen Morgan and he wrote a 

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really interesting Book 15 years
ago and it's called the idea of 

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a European super-state and it 
was encouraging, the European 

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union to become more integrated,
much more integrated. 

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And have like a single European 
military entity, you know? 

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And so there would be like, 'you
aircraft carriers and an EU 

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nuclear Arsenal and European 
like Euro Navy Seals and his 

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whole argument. 
You know, this is the bush era. 

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His argument was that like 
America, you know, has become 

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this like, quasi, Rogue State 
and we can't count on the 

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Americans anymore. 
So we need to do it for 

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ourselves, and that's a super 
interesting argument. 

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And if I were European, I think 
I would be doing takes all the 

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time. 
How Professor Morgan had that, 

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right? 
But one way or another like, 

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that's not what happened, right?
We got brexit. 

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We've had a sort of loosening of
the European common border 

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strategy and you know, so from 
the American perspective it's 

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like you sort of got to take it 
or leave it right. 

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There isn't some other like 
nicer country that's going to 

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come along and be hegemon. 
We're not going to have Iceland 

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become the world's number one 
power. 

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There's only two real contenders
and America is by far. 

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I think Think the better horse 
to bet on, hmm. 

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Okay, already anticipating angry
emails. 

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We'll see what happens with 
that. 

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Okay, we'll go into the position
now, where people going to. 

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Now start yelling about climate 
change will play that role for 

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you here. 
Thank God. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah I'll step into the breach 

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and do this for you. 
So a lot of people that we speak

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with they tend to have very 
strong sympathies towards D 

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growth. 
Economics about humans making a 

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strategic Retreat. 
You could even say from growth 

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from a consumption. 
In and living simpler lives. 

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This is definitely more of a 
wizardly rather than profit 

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approach. 
We develop technology, we invite

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people in, they immigrants start
businesses, they develop 

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technology. 
We're all better off and we 

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develop new alternatives to 
polluting Enterprises. 

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Is that broadly your position? 
Yes. 

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I mean you know I think there's 
a lot that can be said about 

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de-growth. 
I tend not to spend that much of

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my time focusing on why it's 
wrong. 

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Because Cuz, you know, I think 
of the actual politics of the 

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United States like the big issue
is that the American government 

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is doing like barely anything to
combat climate change and we 

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should, in fact, be doing a lot.
But I think it would happens is 

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that because, you know, we have 
this tremendous gap between sort

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of culture and politics, right? 
So it feels to a lot of people 

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that it's like, when we've been 
talking about climate change for

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all these years and we're not 
solving the problem. 

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So obviously, The problem is 
borderline unsolvable and 

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therefore we need D growth 
somehow and and that will solve 

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it. 
But like the truth is that what 

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we need to do like it's 
frustrating that we're not doing

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it but it's like we need to do 
the things that boring sensible.

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People have been saying, we need
to do for like a bajillion 

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years. 
Like, we need to price pollution

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externalities and we need to 
invest money in technology, is 

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unlike its super tedious. 
It's like I'd people like want 

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the answer to be more exciting 
than that because the politics 

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is hard but it's just hard and 
like if we price externalities 

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and invest in technology 
effectively then we can have a 

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prosperous growing society, that
mitigates climate change and 

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responsible way. 
And if we don't do that stuff, 

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like asking everyone to go live 
on a farm and compost or 

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something like we're thicker 
sweaters. 

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It's like, that's not a real 
idea. 

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It doesn't mean He said, like 
the country of Vietnam is not 

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going to stop industrializing 
because American 

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environmentalist would like them
to write. 

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One of the inevitable outcomes 
of larger scale. 

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Climate change, is mass 
migration from place to place, 

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and we had Bryan Caplan on the 
show while back to talk about 

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his book open borders. 
So, if you want 2/3 of a billion

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more people living in America, 
I'm assuming you're going to 

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have to have more immigrants. 
Where do you think you might 

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differ from kaplan's approach? 
Whoa, so I mean, I agree with 

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Brian about a lot of things, 
he's an economist, I think his 

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00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,900
economic analysis of immigration
is really, really good. 

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I think he quotes me and his 
book and I quote him in my book.

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So on one level like we're very 
similar on the other hand, like 

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Brian is a hardcore 
anti-nationalist. 

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So I think his vision of 
immigration is in part about 

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sort of dissolving, The American
Nation, And in a kind of 

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00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,400
important way where as I see it 
the opposite way that like, I 

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want to strengthen the American 
Nation. 

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00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:10,700
I think that people moving here 
has been a source of national 

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strength. 
I think that people are right to

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be skeptical of the idea of 
totally indiscriminately opening

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up the borders, but that black 
we should, in fact, be much more

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open to immigration, you know, 
both to make the country. 

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I mean, primarily because like 
it will make America a better 

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stronger, greater, whatever 
name. 

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Nation, right? 
It isn't the population leveling

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off a good thing, in some 
people's eyes, like, break that 

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down, what you were just saying,
like, why would it make us 

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stronger and how does having 
children relate to that too? 

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00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,600
Sure, you know, I mean, I think 
the most basic way that it makes

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you stronger ready. 
Makes us stronger country is 

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Market size, right? 
The, the United States for a 

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00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:54,100
long time for about a hundred 
years, a little bit more has 

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been the world's number one 
economy. 

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And we've been the world's 
number one economy for so long 

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that we don't Think about that 
or what it means, right? 

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But a lot of privileges come 
with that like anyone anywhere, 

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who invents anything wants to 
bring it to the American market,

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right? 
It's just a fact because our 

228
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,300
Market is so big secondarily 
when our government wants to 

229
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:17,400
regulate things, you know, if we
want to say, okay, everyone has 

230
00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,500
to use high efficiency. 
Dishwashers companies will 

231
00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:24,700
complain about that because they
don't want to do it, but if we 

232
00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:28,400
tell them they have to do it, 
they will go do it right? 

233
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,500
New Zealand. 
Can't just order people to 

234
00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:34,700
change their whole manufacturing
process because they want you to

235
00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:37,600
nobody cares about the New 
Zealand Market, they'll just 

236
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,200
walk away, right? 
So, they've got a nice little 

237
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:41,900
country there with a lot of 
sheep. 

238
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:45,000
And the occasional movie shoots 
there and a high standard of 

239
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,500
living. 
But in World terms, they have to

240
00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:49,800
take or leave the world as they 
find it. 

241
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,800
And it's been a world shaped by 
the United States, which is 

242
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,600
fairly benign as a world for 
sort of nice guy developed. 

243
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,700
Is to live in. 
China is less of a nice guy and 

244
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:05,300
they are growing. 
And you see, they have become 

245
00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:08,400
already the world's number one 
market for movie tickets. 

246
00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:11,200
And so there was a great report 
in pain America. 

247
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,400
That pain America put out in 
August about the consequences of

248
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,600
this. 
And it means that right now 

249
00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:22,000
Hollywood shapes their movies. 
According to the demands of 

250
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,600
Chinese censors, right? 
The PRC movie censorship office 

251
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,400
serves the role of the EPA for 
Like we regulate dishwashers, 

252
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,900
they regulate the content or 
movies and as they get bigger, 

253
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,600
they get more influence. 
So right now, they tell Disney, 

254
00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:42,300
you can't have a Tibetan 
character in Doctor Strange, so 

255
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:44,400
they change it. 
So the ancient one is no longer 

256
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,900
Tibetan. 
It's played by Tilda Swinton and

257
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:48,900
you know, she has no determinant
ethnicity. 

258
00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:52,600
But as he keeps going right, as 
they get bigger, do they start 

259
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,800
telling Disney? 
Well, ABC News can't cover human

260
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,500
rights in Tibet. 
Do they tell NBC Universal that 

261
00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:01,900
you? 
MSNBC, CNBC can't cover these 

262
00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:03,700
kind of issues. 
And what do we say, right? 

263
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:06,300
These are profit-seeking 
companies, if that's what they 

264
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:08,600
got to do to get in the China 
market like that's what they'll 

265
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,500
do you see with American 
technology companies ride? 

266
00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:15,700
So Apple has this big song and 
dance about user privacy but 

267
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:18,800
there's just a huge exception 
for phone sold in the China 

268
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,200
market and if the China Market 
gets bigger and bigger and China

269
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,400
starts, telling them look to get
access to the China Market. 

270
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,400
You have to let the Chinese 
government's, Snoop on 

271
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,600
everyone's data, not just for 
China. 

272
00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:31,800
Chinese phones. 
But for phones sold all 

273
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,300
throughout Asia, like, is Apple 
going to say no to that? 

274
00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:38,400
This is, I think the basic 
concern that you've got to have 

275
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,900
a lot of countries get by just 
fine with being small, but 

276
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:45,400
that's because America has been 
the big country, right? 

277
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,100
And I think it's in our 
interest, it's in our interest 

278
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:49,600
to coordinate better with 
allies. 

279
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,000
I mean, there's a lot of like, 
Council on Foreign Relations 

280
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,800
type stuff. 
You could think about here that 

281
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,800
we're not doing, but basically 
like the fundamentals of 

282
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,300
national strength, come down. 
Population size times per capita

283
00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:04,900
GDP, right? 
So we all talk all the time 

284
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,900
about how to grow our GDP, you 
know, we have some ideas but 

285
00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:09,600
it's hard. 
It's hard to grow as fast as a 

286
00:15:09,608 --> 00:15:11,500
poor country. 
That's catching up, but we can 

287
00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:14,200
grow our population, Matt. 
You kind of sound like a 

288
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,400
conservative here. 
What gives very conservative? 

289
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,600
I'm super duper duper right wing
in this book. 

290
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,900
Except that my two ideas that we
should expand the welfare state 

291
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,400
to take more care of parents and
children and then we should be 

292
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,500
more open to immigrants so those
are Upper left wing ideas, so, 

293
00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:33,500
you know, so, everyone loves 
you. 

294
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,100
I'm beloved by all know. 
I'm look, it's been interesting.

295
00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:41,000
So, the reason that this is a 
good book to purchase and read 

296
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,300
Because that's the point of all 
this is that so much shit that 

297
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,800
you can buy today. 
It's like, it's so tedious, you 

298
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,400
know, so like the bestseller 
list is like, 11 books about how

299
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,500
Donald Trump is a maniac. 
And I think one book about have 

300
00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,400
Liberals are destroying the 
country and everybody knows what

301
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,600
those books say. 
You know, like you don't need to

302
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,500
read them you don't even need to
have them on the Shelf like 

303
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,400
everybody knows you already 
think about Trump. 

304
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,700
It's boring. 
This is a book that you know I 

305
00:16:09,708 --> 00:16:13,200
got some very good reviews and 
some right-wing Publications I 

306
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,300
got some bad reviews and some 
left-wing ones I got vice versa.

307
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:19,700
I got Libertarians who like it, 
Libertarians who hate it, social

308
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:23,000
conservatives who like it social
conservatives who hate it and 

309
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,100
it's because it is actually an 
interesting book that is not 

310
00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:31,200
just like tedious. 
Station of the same talking 

311
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,900
point. 
So people have taste and 

312
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:37,000
distinction from all political 
Persuasions love this book. 

313
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,600
And, you know, knuckle-dragging 
cretins from all around the 

314
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,100
Spectrum, think it's bad and no,
ruthless ruthless. 

315
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,200
Yeah, most of the thinker's. 
I come back to time and time 

316
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,800
again. 
Are those that I find it really 

317
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,000
any issue that breaks neatly 
into what I can imagine the 

318
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,200
right. 
Will say and what I imagine the 

319
00:16:55,208 --> 00:16:57,500
left will say I know is just 
going to be a boring played out 

320
00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,000
thing. 
We've been debating for decades 

321
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,400
and I really don't want to To 
play in it. 

322
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,300
And I love that people like 
Wendell Berry or Dorothy day 

323
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,700
that I find very surprising. 
I'm just like, oh, I don't 

324
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:08,300
always agree. 
But this is a at least you're 

325
00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:10,500
saying something new and I 
respect that and there's 

326
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:11,700
definitely a lot of that in this
book. 

327
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,200
So if you like that, I'm gonna 
pay you that compliment. 

328
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,599
Matt, you're also in that 
category of poking, everyone in 

329
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,500
the eye and giving everyone a 
hug too. 

330
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:23,099
Yeah. 
I mean, I just like, you know, 

331
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,599
It's a weird thing about being a
like politics writer like I am 

332
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,100
which is that Agents come after 
you every once in a while. 

333
00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:33,800
They're like oh you should write
a book but so many of the books 

334
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,600
that I think people in my line 
of work, right? 

335
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,400
Just end up being boring and our
takes are better consumed in in 

336
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,500
short form. 
So I wanted to write a book that

337
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:46,300
was interested, you know? 
So I like I wasn't writing one 

338
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:48,400
and I wasn't writing one. 
And then I came up with this 

339
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,700
idea that I actually thought was
interesting. 

340
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,400
I have a lot of ideas that I 
think are true and correct. 

341
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:56,400
Act. 
But like a 200 Pages for me of 

342
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,100
like Donald Trump seems like he 
doesn't know what he's doing or 

343
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,400
wow. 
Republicans. 

344
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,400
They really like cutting taxes 
on rich people but also their 

345
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,800
kind of racist. 
It's like, who cares? 

346
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,000
You know, those are tweets, 
those aren't books. 

347
00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:13,200
I love Twitter, I love tweets. 
But like this is a book. 

348
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,900
It's not that long of a book but
even a short book is like it's 

349
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:19,900
kind of a lot of pages. 
So I wanted to make it 

350
00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:22,500
interesting you know to put 
forward a proposition that I 

351
00:18:22,508 --> 00:18:24,600
think is correct. 
That we should have a billion 

352
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,600
Americans that people have a lot
of questions about, and then I 

353
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,500
tried it like, actually go 
through it and be like, here's 

354
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:32,500
how we can change housing to 
accommodate them. 

355
00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:34,700
Here's how we can change 
Transportation policy to 

356
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:36,800
accommodate them. 
Here's what I think, the like 

357
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,700
Eco pessimists and dystopian is 
get wrong. 

358
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:41,900
Here's what the cultural decline
is, get wrong. 

359
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,400
Here's what you ought to know 
about immigration economics. 

360
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:46,500
Here's what you don't know about
welfare state design. 

361
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:50,000
It's like, you know, it's chock 
full of facts and figures and 

362
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,100
information Brad plumbers 
climate writer at the Times. 

363
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:55,200
He paid me. 
I thought a great compliment the

364
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,400
other day. 
He said, like separate from the 

365
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,500
argument. 
I learned a lot from this book, 

366
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,800
which is good because like, 
Brad's a super smart guy, you 

367
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,800
know, he knows a lot and it's 
good to write a book that people

368
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,100
can learn from. 
Okay. 

369
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:10,600
One of the things that I noticed
in reading this book is how much

370
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:14,100
it made me appreciate cities. 
So, I've basically always been a

371
00:19:14,108 --> 00:19:17,700
city dweller, either Suburban 
exurban actually in the heart of

372
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:21,500
various cities, and all I can 
see now in spending time in 

373
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:23,300
cities, is the squalor and the 
noise. 

374
00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:25,700
And I find them to be very 
frustrating. 

375
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,500
And I've since moved a little 
bit farther out of the core of 

376
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:31,100
Seattle. 
So it's more quiet and I'm more.

377
00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:33,300
Okay, with living in the 
proximity of the city. 

378
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,300
But I spend so much time on this
show well, like, talking about. 

379
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:39,000
Wendell Berry comes basically 
every episode and this sort of 

380
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,500
idealized rural existence. 
And I need someone to bring us 

381
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:45,300
back to the center of that 
because I think I've overdone 

382
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:46,900
it. 
So convinced me that cities are 

383
00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:50,600
actually a really important and 
good thing I said you see great 

384
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,300
the think about were living Is 
that? 

385
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,600
I don't know. 
I don't want to be too 

386
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,100
provocative here. 
I know I go. 

387
00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:01,100
Okay, I won't be mean about it. 
So okay, you have cities right? 

388
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,300
And in the cities we would all 
starve to death if not for the 

389
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,800
farmers in the countryside. 
You know that's just a fact. 

390
00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:12,100
We need those Countryside. 
People at the same time, the 

391
00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:16,800
people living in the countryside
would all be dirt, bore 

392
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,300
subsistence Farmers. 
If not for cities and urban 

393
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:23,300
life, you know, you can have an 
idealized vision. 

394
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:25,800
That's the countryside. 
But you can also look, I mean, 

395
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,800
you can look in a lot of Asian 
countries to this day and see 

396
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,500
people living in Huts doing 
back-breaking labor, 10 hours a 

397
00:20:33,508 --> 00:20:36,300
day. 
In rice patties, you know growth

398
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:40,700
stunted because I have no 
protein and that's the natural 

399
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:45,700
state of Rural Life, right? 
We Elevate above that. 

400
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,700
The reason that life in rural 
America or rural Australia, 

401
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:53,300
Canada France, whatever it might
be, is actually pretty good. 

402
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,400
Is that we have like 
Technologies and wealth that 

403
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,200
come out of cities and ideas and
things like that. 

404
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,700
And that's just a cities like in
World historical terms, like 

405
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:09,300
agglomerations of human beings. 
Right now in America, we also 

406
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,100
have a lot of very specific 
things about Central. 

407
00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:16,000
City municipalities versus 
suburbs that are near them, but 

408
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,700
obviously like the whole like 
the suburbs exist as part of an 

409
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:23,300
urban Fabric and it's totally 
reasonable for like some people 

410
00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:25,800
Live over here and some people 
are live over there. 

411
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:28,600
You know, you want to find a 
neighborhood that sort of suits 

412
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,400
you. 
But the point is that like the 

413
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,600
city has to exist for all of 
that to make sense. 

414
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,600
So I basically agree with you on
that and I've always lived in 

415
00:21:37,608 --> 00:21:41,100
cities and I tend to like cities
and whenever I think about the 

416
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:46,900
idea of moving to a more rural 
area, I get a little scared, 

417
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:50,400
basically scared of missing out 
on different cultural things and

418
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,500
being close to the amenities 
that I like. 

419
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:57,500
But one Of the frustrations. 
I have living in the city is how

420
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:00,000
cities are governed. 
And, you know, before we started

421
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,100
recording this, you who are 
starting to share an opinion 

422
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:06,500
about like how the Los Angeles 
metro system is poorly run. 

423
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:09,700
And here in Seattle, we've 
committed to an over 50 billion 

424
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:12,300
dollar light rail system. 
That won't even be fully 

425
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:14,800
operational until like, almost 
the year 2040. 

426
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:19,400
And then meanwhile, compared to 
China your foil in this book who

427
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,300
are able to build mass transit 
systems in like a week. 

428
00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:26,900
Half, what are we doing wrong? 
How do we improve that? 

429
00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:28,600
What are the mechanics of making
cities? 

430
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,000
Work better for their residents?
Yeah, I mean there's a lot that 

431
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,100
we are doing wrong. 
I mean, the point I was making, 

432
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:38,200
you know, we're talking before 
is that like I think Progressive

433
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,400
minded. 
People are aware that big cities

434
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,100
in America are not like 
perfectly governed like if you 

435
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:48,400
just kind of ask them, right, 
you'd be like have like how's it

436
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,900
going in? 
Los Angeles is everything. 

437
00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:52,000
Perfect? 
They be like, No in fact there 

438
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,900
are significant problems and 
Listen, not to knock it but just

439
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:59,300
like every city is like that and
yet you can't say oh well, the 

440
00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:01,500
problem here is Republicans, 
right? 

441
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:05,900
It's like we are actually 
struggling to govern ourselves 

442
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:09,700
and Achieve what it is. 
We want to achieve, you know, I 

443
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:14,600
think a lot of that comes down 
fundamentally to land use 

444
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,700
questions, right? 
So like the LA Metro, I'm quite 

445
00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:22,500
familiar with the Saga on this 
and its really sad like they 

446
00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:25,300
have spent. 
An incredible amount of money 

447
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,200
building, a subway system in Los
Angeles. 

448
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,800
And, you know, of course, it's 
not that big of a subway system 

449
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,600
relative to the size of the 
city. 

450
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,300
It's totally understandable that
it hasn't been enough investment

451
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:42,000
to transform Ela into like a 
true mass transit City. 

452
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:46,800
But it's much more extensive 
transit system than like a small

453
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,400
European city would have but it 
has almost no ridership because 

454
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:54,800
La for starters. 
They run trains very 

455
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,600
infrequently and the trains 
don't run frequently. 

456
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,500
They say because they can't 
afford to run them frequently, 

457
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:03,800
but that's because fare 
collection is so low because the

458
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,600
ridership is so low. 
And then, the ridership is so 

459
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,900
low in part because they didn't 
change any of the land use, they

460
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:14,000
didn't say okay you can build 
tall apartment buildings now 

461
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:17,600
near these train stations and 
you know Seattle, I don't know 

462
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,900
as well but I was there last 
year and I was taking whatever 

463
00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:25,800
the train is in. 
The airport and, you know, you 

464
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,600
sort of cruising south of 
downtown and to what look like, 

465
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:34,500
you know, reasonably built-up 
areas, but you'll be right there

466
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:40,200
by a station and it's like, 
parking lots, you know, or one 

467
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,300
story, you know. 
It's kind of like strip mall 

468
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:46,800
style retail and it's not zoned 
to say okay, you know you're 

469
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,800
within a quarter mile walk from 
this light rail station, you 

470
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,200
could just put up a like a big 
ass Tower and then you go into 

471
00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:56,000
To like really, really the 
center of the city. 

472
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,300
And there is like, some part of 
town where they have allowed 

473
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,300
people to put up big ass towers 
and there's a bunch of cranes 

474
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:04,300
there. 
And so that everyone in Seattle 

475
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:07,300
is like, oh my God, there's so 
much development here and there 

476
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:10,400
is, in fact, more development in
Seattle than there is in San 

477
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,100
Francisco where there's like 
basically none but still a 

478
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:17,700
majority of the land in not in 
the Seattle metro area. 

479
00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:20,800
But in the city of Seattle 
itself is zoned for 

480
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,000
single-family detached houses. 
And you know, it's fine people 

481
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,800
like single-family detached 
houses, what do you make it 

482
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,900
illegal to build denser stuff, 
you get huge housing, 

483
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:35,500
affordability problems, you get,
you don't have the density to 

484
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:37,100
support Transit. 
Ridership. 

485
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,300
And so you have everybody kind 
of kick it around and it's like 

486
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,800
well I want somebody else to 
take the light rail. 

487
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:46,000
You don't like but not me. 
I want to keep driving my car 

488
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,300
and I want parking everywhere 
but that's not how cities work 

489
00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:52,500
like if you look at cities you 
know whether it's Paris or 

490
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:56,300
Berlin. 
Or Hong Kong or Singapore or New

491
00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:59,400
York, write that like have 
substantial Transit, ridership, 

492
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,100
they have made themselves too 
dense for to be convenient to 

493
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:05,600
drive in park, your car 
somewhere. 

494
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,000
Where do you fall on buses 
versus trains? 

495
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,000
Because like, I used to have to 
commute to downtown Seattle and 

496
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,300
the bus route that I took came 
every 15 to 30 minutes. 

497
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:22,200
And then going home was a total 
nightmare and I just always kept

498
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,800
finding myself thinking like We,
if we would just reroute some of

499
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,000
the 50 billion dollars that we 
put into this train system, that

500
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,800
won't even be usable for 20 
years, into just more buses with

501
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,500
more frequent service with that 
improve it would ridership go 

502
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:38,100
up. 
What does the research say on 

503
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:39,300
that? 
What's better here? 

504
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,200
So, you know, it's not that like
buses are good and trains are 

505
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,200
bad or something. 
I do think that what's true is 

506
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,500
that when you have a city at the
scale of Seattle say, Say, 

507
00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:01,000
probably the best thing to do is
to look at your bus Network and 

508
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,500
try to make it better, right? 
That the sort of quality of the 

509
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:09,100
bus service is a limiting factor
on ridership. 

510
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:13,100
They're investing in rail, I 
think is really, really 

511
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:16,400
worthwhile. 
But the reason to do it would be

512
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,100
to facilitate very dense 
development near the rail stops.

513
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,200
And I guess like that's what I'm
saying about l.a., right? 

514
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:27,400
They kind of wanted to like take
La as it exists, then come up 

515
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,900
with spend a lot of money. 
Like the voters of l.a. were 

516
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:35,100
willing to truly open their 
wallets to this goal but they 

517
00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:39,200
wanted to do was get somebody 
else to ride the Metro. 

518
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:41,500
Yeah. 
So that their life could be 

519
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:45,900
exactly the same the with less 
traffic in it and it doesn't 

520
00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,900
work like that, right? 
Like the LA Metro is this great 

521
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,700
achievement, you know, like they
spent a lot of money on it. 

522
00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:55,700
It's a lot of tunnels. 
Owls, it does in fact, work, but

523
00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:59,700
the reason to do something like 
that would be to rezone to have 

524
00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:03,300
big apartment buildings near the
train stations and then a lot of

525
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:06,400
people would ride the train but 
it would be a different kind of 

526
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:09,900
city after that, right? 
But it would be a better city 

527
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:12,600
after that and that that's what 
people should do. 

528
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:16,200
Like if they if they want to be 
have like green growth and you 

529
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,200
know Green New Deal and 
bababababa like the whole point 

530
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,200
of the new deal was for things 
to be different. 

531
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:27,300
Aunt after it was done, then 
they were previously a lot of 

532
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:30,200
progressive thought. 
It feels like people want 

533
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,500
progress without change. 
Hmm, you know. 

534
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:37,800
And like yeah, have that. 
Yeah, it sounds like you're 

535
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,700
saying like, like an l.a. the 
train system, that's the end in 

536
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:44,200
and of itself. 
But you're suggesting that like 

537
00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:48,400
rail investment should be a 
means to an end of which is 

538
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:50,900
increasing density so that more 
people can live and work 

539
00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:55,300
affordably in cities. 
Okay yes exactly. 

540
00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:03,900
You know a or there are some 
places in America that are so 

541
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:05,700
dense. 
Yeah, I'm sorry. 

542
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:09,100
You have bus routes that have 
such heavy ridership. 

543
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:12,800
In a few places there's like a 
couple routes in New York that 

544
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,800
are like this. 
Maybe one in San Francisco. 

545
00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:22,200
Maybe one here in Washington DC 
where I live that just upgrading

546
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,000
them to rail would it'd be 
justified this in terms of the 

547
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,600
number of people who would do 
it. 

548
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,700
But in the typical American 
city, you know, Los Angeles, 

549
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:35,200
Seattle, Houston, Dallas, you're
looking at big cities, there's 

550
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,100
like a lot of demand to live in 
them and the purpose of 

551
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:39,800
building. 
A rail network, should be to 

552
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,500
reshape the urban form. 
So you can achieve a higher 

553
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:47,400
level of, you know, Urban 
density or Bannock - I don't 

554
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,400
know what the but the right, 
what the right verb is but it's 

555
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,500
like people would live. 
Are the train stations, you 

556
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:56,200
know, like that's what trains 
are for. 

557
00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:00,300
The thing that they are good at 
is that the geometry of Rail 

558
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:04,400
lines is that they move human 
beings more efficiently than 

559
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,600
roads do. 
But if you don't want that 

560
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,500
outcome, then there's no point, 
I mean, I think trains look nice

561
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,900
as do a lot of people but like 
that's not a good reason to 

562
00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:16,500
build them. 
I used to live in LA and to take

563
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:20,400
the trains and times the the red
line off of Vermont and I had to

564
00:30:20,408 --> 00:30:23,100
go downtown I would do that or 
go into the valley. 

565
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,400
He was fine and it worked. 
Okay. 

566
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,800
I've heard La described as the 
United States is first post. 

567
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,200
Modern city without just a clear
Center where there is various 

568
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,000
different types of centers, 
depending on where you would 

569
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,200
want to go. 
It wasn't like, downtown LA was 

570
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,200
where all commercial activity 
was concentrated. 

571
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,400
In fact, probably quite the 
opposite. 

572
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:43,800
So how do you build an 
environment like that? 

573
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,200
It does that model really, makes
sense for it in the same kind of

574
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,000
ways it might with Manhattan. 
Well, so I mean I think it does,

575
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,500
right? 
So you take away, right? 

576
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:58,600
And if you just Posit massive up
zoning of all of the Metro 

577
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,800
stations, right? 
Then that starts to create a 

578
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,900
thing where more people are 
living near those stations 

579
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,400
sometimes because they want to 
ride the train but honestly 

580
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,000
maybe they have no desire to 
ride the train. 

581
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,300
It's just that houses are really
expensive everywhere in 

582
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:14,400
California. 
So if you build giant apartment,

583
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,700
buildings, like anywhere in Los 
Angeles, some people will live 

584
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:19,500
in them. 
So now all the sudden you have a

585
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:22,600
lot of people and their living 
near Metro stations and now 

586
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,500
companies are are thinking about
where to locate Office Buildings

587
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:28,600
and commute patterns matter, 
right? 

588
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,400
But the Metro Network converges 
on downtown, Los Angeles just 

589
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,200
like things do in classic 
cities. 

590
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,200
So once you have a bunch of 
people who are living near Metro

591
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,600
stations, then if you put your 
office downtown, that becomes a 

592
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,700
convenient way for a lot of 
people to get to you. 

593
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,400
Whereas, if you have it in, you 
know, wherever else, Culver 

594
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,800
City, it's maybe not as good. 
So it becomes a reason to have a

595
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,700
sort of more centralized kind of
thing. 

596
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,100
You know, I would also say that 
Americans sometimes think that 

597
00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:59,900
like Los Angeles and New York 
are the only cities in the 

598
00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:03,200
world. 
So if New York is very like 

599
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,600
centralized and then l.a. isn't 
it's like well a is super weird 

600
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,100
but there's a lot of 
multi-centered cities in the 

601
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:14,900
world, right? 
Paris doesn't have a hyper Focus

602
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:20,600
downtown Berlin has sort of 
several distinct City centers 

603
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,300
because of the unique history 
that it's It had over the years 

604
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:29,600
so it's fairly normal for cities
to be a little bit less. 

605
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:33,200
Like Manhattan is an island like
New York is actually a little 

606
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,300
bit of the weird City more than 
Allah is, but La is a, you know,

607
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:40,800
it's built around freeways but 
that's because like they built 

608
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,400
these freak ways and then they 
built the city around it. 

609
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:46,100
Now, they built all these Rail 
lines and you have to let the 

610
00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:48,500
city build around them. 
Hmm. 

611
00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:50,000
Okay. 
I'm gonna take a little bit of a

612
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,100
different direction here. 
Matt, we listened to your 

613
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:54,600
podcast with Tyler, Colin, if 
you're listening and you haven't

614
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,700
heard conversations with Tyler 
often quite a good way, to spend

615
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:01,400
your time listening to a 
podcast, it's a good show but 

616
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,600
you had an interesting comment 
about how centralizing in order 

617
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,300
to decentralize. 
So I think I speak for Paul and 

618
00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:10,300
I hear I think we both like 
subsidiarity. 

619
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,900
We want institutions to be as 
small and as local as it 

620
00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:15,600
actually makes sense to with the
scale. 

621
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,700
Obviously if it just doesn't 
make sense for something to be 

622
00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:20,300
small scale, and it needs to be 
larger in order to function 

623
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:22,500
properly, I'm not ideological 
about it. 

624
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,100
Well, I try not. 
Got to be at least. 

625
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:28,100
But do you think a more populous
country would make federalism in

626
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:31,300
this sort of 50 different states
experimenting work better and 

627
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,200
actually make that a more 
functional way to govern? 

628
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:38,400
Well, I think the book does not 
get into this and, yeah, I think

629
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,600
you say it's a whole separate 
book or something like that. 

630
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,400
Details, like, people should ask
themselves, why? 

631
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,800
American Federalism is so crappy
because it's like a good idea, 

632
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,700
right? 
I think you discuss a lot of 

633
00:33:52,708 --> 00:33:55,000
different. 
Problems and people will reach 

634
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,900
the conclusion. 
That federalism might be useful 

635
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,900
here. 
And federalism really is should 

636
00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:02,800
be useful, right? 
But if you look at it 

637
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,400
empirically, what happens is 
that the dominant player in 

638
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:12,300
state politics is the state 
legislature even more? 

639
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:16,900
So, you know, Congress is more 
powerful than the presidency but

640
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:20,199
State politics are even more 
tilted to the legislature. 

641
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,600
That's in part because they 
don't have the National Security

642
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,300
Arena. 
Now, which is a huge part of the

643
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:26,199
president's job. 
It's in part because the 

644
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,199
executive branch tends to be 
disaggregated, so you'll have a 

645
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,500
separately, elected Attorney, 
General of an insurance 

646
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:36,699
commissioner controller or 
Treasurer other things like that

647
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,400
to these hyper empowered 
legislators. 

648
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,800
And then you look at State 
Legislative elections and you 

649
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,900
see that people's voting 
behavior is an almost pure 

650
00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:49,500
function of their approval of 
the president of the United 

651
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:51,600
States. 
You know what I mean? 

652
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,100
So like people vote Republican 
for State Legislature in 

653
00:34:55,100 --> 00:34:58,700
Louisiana because they like 
Donald Trump and that has 

654
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:02,000
obviously nothing to do with how
good a job. 

655
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,500
The legislature is doing of 
making policy for Louisiana and 

656
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:09,000
people for governor show a lot 
more creativity. 

657
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,300
So, Louisiana and Kentucky have 
Democratic Governors, 

658
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:15,600
Massachusetts and Maryland have 
Republican Governors and that's 

659
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,000
because of specific things that 
were happening in the States. 

660
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:20,100
But the governor's don't 
actually have a lot of 

661
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:23,400
authority. 
Those States, the legislators do

662
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,100
and they're often very 
gerrymandered on top of that. 

663
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:29,100
So I think that's all pretty 
bad, right? 

664
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:34,100
And if we want to have a real 
politics of federalism, we need 

665
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:39,300
to have real State politics. 
And that means seven, mix of 

666
00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:41,900
empowering. 
The governor more relative to 

667
00:35:41,908 --> 00:35:44,900
other officials because you have
real electoral competition there

668
00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:49,100
and it means trying to 
differentiate the political 

669
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:53,400
party system like in Canada. 
You can have totally separate 

670
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,500
parties in your provinces then 
you have in national federal 

671
00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:01,500
politics so that people say look
in my Quebec election, I vote 

672
00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:05,100
based on Quebec issues and then 
in my Canada election, I vote 

673
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:07,900
based on candidate shoes and we 
don't have any of that in 

674
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:13,100
America and it makes federalism 
very, very weak as a sort of 

675
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:16,200
like effective strategy for 
addressing governance. 

676
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:19,000
Yeah. 
I see your point there. 

677
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:23,500
One of my like, This bugaboos 
is, I'm just not a fan of the 

678
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:27,400
Seventeenth Amendment and the 
idea of changing the way the 

679
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,100
senators are elected to be 
popularly voted upon, rather 

680
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:34,000
than by the state legislatures, 
but sounds like you're arguing 

681
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,000
against putting more power in 
the hands of the legislators, 

682
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,600
but I guess just in general, you
know, we've got this, like, 

683
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,200
major partisan increasingly 
partisan times that are 

684
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,400
happening, and that doesn't seem
to be slowing down. 

685
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:50,700
So, we basically have a federal 
government that doesn't work 

686
00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:54,400
well. 
Well, at all and if we triple 

687
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,100
the country's population is that
going to make things better or 

688
00:36:58,300 --> 00:36:59,400
worse? 
Like how do we make the 

689
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,500
government more responsive to 
that many people. 

690
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:06,300
Well, so I put the card in the 
horse, the other way, around my 

691
00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:11,800
claim is that our politics has 
become dysfunctional because in 

692
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,100
the post-cold war environment, 
we have stopped really having a 

693
00:37:16,107 --> 00:37:19,900
politics that's about improving 
America. 

694
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:23,000
And we've instead At this 
politics, that's about pitting 

695
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,600
Americans against each other and
fighting with each other, right?

696
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,300
And it's not that having a 
larger population will fix that 

697
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:35,200
problem. 
It's that raising our gaze away 

698
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,700
from picking fights with each 
other and toward thinking, about

699
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:43,700
America's role in the world and 
how we can be the dominant. 

700
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:47,500
Great power of the next century 
and the century after that will 

701
00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:50,300
naturally create a more 
constructive. 

702
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:52,700
Politics. 
Because he know. 

703
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:56,300
So like one thing in the book is
I'm talking about how we should 

704
00:37:56,300 --> 00:38:00,600
do more, you know, to support 
people with like Day Care 

705
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,000
subsidies and, you know, I give 
my view of what's the right way 

706
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,800
to do that. 
But I could totally imagine a 

707
00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:10,700
conservative person, putting 
more weight on deregulation is a

708
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:15,100
solution a left-wing person. 
Might say, I say that we should 

709
00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:17,600
give some support to stay at 
home parents. 

710
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,800
A left-wing person might 
disagree with that a cultural 

711
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:22,800
Every day of might think it's 
absolutely essential. 

712
00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:24,800
This is like a lie. 
You can disagree about in 

713
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,600
politics, but the premise of 
that disagreement would be that 

714
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:35,400
we agree that we should be doing
something to financially support

715
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,400
and child. 
Rearing, right, right. 

716
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,400
And then we're having a 
conversation about how do we do 

717
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,600
that and then we can have I do 
if you guys know the book, great

718
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,200
classic Business book, getting 
to yes, you know about how to 

719
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,700
have constructive negotiations 
right now. 

720
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,900
It's like if we want to reach a 
solution that I think we can, I 

721
00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:58,700
don't think the values that 
divide Americans are this like 

722
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:04,400
unbridgeable void, but there's 
significant and mostly the way 

723
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,800
our politics is setup files, you
just don't want to bridge The 

724
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,600
Divide, right? 
They want to find reasons to 

725
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:15,100
break up and then say, ah, Fu. 
And so like we can't solve any 

726
00:39:15,100 --> 00:39:17,700
problems that way and we're not 
going to. 

727
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:20,700
And if you're satisfied with the
country, just kind of go. 

728
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:23,500
Down the tubes. 
You know, that's fine. 

729
00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:27,000
But it seems bad to me. 
We have the Cold War and that 

730
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,000
was the unifying thing. 
It was like what fueled the 

731
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,300
space race and other types of 
projections of American cultural

732
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:37,900
values around the world? 
And we've basically lost it. 

733
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:41,600
This is like the fukuyama like 
end of History kind of thing. 

734
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,500
Like we we haven't really had 
anything like that to unify us 

735
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:48,700
since 1990 or so and it sounds 
like your argument is well this 

736
00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:51,700
is a thing that we can all 
aspire to And so if we can agree

737
00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:53,500
on the ends, then we can start 
debating. 

738
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:55,900
The means which is where actual 
policy discussions. 

739
00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:58,000
Take place. 
Yeah, I mean, I agree with that.

740
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,500
And if you, if you read 
fukuyama's book, which people 

741
00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:05,900
sometimes dunk on, right, having
read his last chapter is 

742
00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:10,200
actually quite pessimistic. 
Like he's not saying, this is 

743
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,900
gonna be great. 
He's actually predicting that 

744
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:17,200
we're going to have very 
divisive politics dominated by 

745
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,700
demagogues and nonsense, which I
think it's more or less, what? 

746
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:24,200
Happened. 
And as everybody says, like, 

747
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,200
history is not in fact, over we 
have a bunch of big challenges 

748
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,400
and you know, something that I 
think is interesting about the 

749
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,900
cold war is it wasn't just well,
okay, we did the Space Program 

750
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,800
to stick it to the Soviets but 
that at that time you would not 

751
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:46,200
have had an advocate of the free
enterprise system stand up and 

752
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,900
say, well, you know what, if 
millions of people have 

753
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:53,000
stagnating wages, Ages for a 
generation and KitKat health 

754
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,700
insurance, and their children 
are living in poverty. 

755
00:40:55,900 --> 00:40:57,900
That's just the market for you, 
right? 

756
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:01,400
Because that would sound like a 
pitch for communism, right? 

757
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,800
People believed it people who 
believed in capitalism wanted to

758
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,400
make the system work, right? 
They undertook an obligation to 

759
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,100
not just say that, like, in 
theory, this would be better, 

760
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,700
but that like, actually it had 
to be better, right? 

761
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:22,000
We accepted that challenge and 
we sort of don't Have that now, 

762
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,800
right, there's no sense that 
America needs to live up to its 

763
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,000
values or that America needs to 
deliver for its people. 

764
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:34,200
And I think that that time that 
moment of innocence is sort of 

765
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,500
slipping away and it's time to 
start thinking about what do we 

766
00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:42,700
plan to do in this world? 
Okay, I'm fairly sympathetic, 

767
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:44,600
though. 
The idea that 1 billion 

768
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,300
Americans could be a similar 
rallying call that we can all 

769
00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:50,600
unify around like the space 
race. 

770
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,200
Yes. 
I mean it just seems like we let

771
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,800
more people in and we have more 
children. 

772
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,700
That's not like a defeat 
communism. 

773
00:41:56,700 --> 00:41:58,600
Go to the Moon Planet American 
flag. 

774
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,200
It seems to be number one 
forever. 

775
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,200
Being number will get you think 
number one forever. 

776
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:04,200
There we go. 
Okay. 

777
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:06,300
Yeah. 
That's that's controversial in 

778
00:42:06,308 --> 00:42:09,700
its own way, but if I'm going to
live in a country, I probably 

779
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:12,800
would want it to be the world 
leader. 

780
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:14,800
I don't know. 
I'm not nearly as embarrassed 

781
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,300
about that as I should be, but 
you're saying, I'm saying, you 

782
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:20,700
should own it. 
It's like I think one of the 

783
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,500
Things in American politics 
today is like nobody is like a 

784
00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:26,100
who cares number one. 
Number two. 

785
00:42:26,100 --> 00:42:28,900
Everybody says everyone speeches
like this is the greatest 

786
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:32,000
country on Earth, but then you 
look at these IMF projection is 

787
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,400
this like, well, in purchasing 
power parity terms were already 

788
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,400
number two, in exchange rate. 
Terms were still number one, but

789
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,100
everyone thinks China's exchange
rate is fake. 

790
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:45,100
So maybe we'll still be number 
one for like five or six more 

791
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:46,800
years. 
And so, like you said, Joe 

792
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,400
Biden's platform, he is going to
be like the last president for 

793
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,700
whom America was the the number 
one economy in the world that 

794
00:42:53,700 --> 00:42:57,100
that sounds really bad actually,
when you state it that way. 

795
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,000
So what are we going to do about
it, right? 

796
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,800
Like I say, grow the population 
across I was going to say like I

797
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,300
mean when I visit like other 
westernized countries that have 

798
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:09,100
like you know, roughly similar 
cultural values to what we have 

799
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:13,400
here in the US and there. 
And if I go to a store or a 

800
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,300
grocery store or I turn on the 
TV or whatever everything that 

801
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:20,600
I'm seeing our cultural exports 
from the United States. 

802
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,900
And I can imagine being a 
citizen of one of those 

803
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:27,500
countries and just being like a 
little bit annoyed and jealous 

804
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:29,500
and envious. 
That everything like runs 

805
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:32,500
through America, you have no 
idea how many times people will 

806
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,700
say, like oh Ross from friends, 
and I'm like, I'm not even like 

807
00:43:37,300 --> 00:43:39,400
some random country. 
I've been to all the time. 

808
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:40,800
Yeah. 
Right. 

809
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,000
So that to me seems like a good 
reason. 

810
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,800
Like, I mean, I agree with 
Matt's objective here. 

811
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,100
I like being in the country, 
that is the cultural exporter. 

812
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:51,100
Because that means that, when I 
participated A pate in the 

813
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:52,700
culture. 
I'm participating in the thing 

814
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:56,100
that ultimately affects much 
more around the world than if I 

815
00:43:56,100 --> 00:44:00,700
were just a kiwi and New Zealand
and my only expert export is 

816
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:02,600
Flight of the Conchords. 
Yeah. 

817
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,900
And what we do in the shadows 
and lower strings. 

818
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,100
Right on the right now, I look, 
I it says something like, 

819
00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:13,300
everybody knows, right? 
If you grew up in New Zealand 

820
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,300
and you're smart and you're 
ambitious and, you know, you do 

821
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:20,500
really well in high school and 
whatever and you want to like, 

822
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,500
Get in the world. 
You know, you got to end up 

823
00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:27,700
moving to London or New York or 
San Francisco or something like 

824
00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:28,600
that. 
It's that is that going to 

825
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,800
happen in Auckland, right? 
And that's an important part of 

826
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,400
the American identity. 
I think that like we are this 

827
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,400
great Hub of stuff, right? 
Cultural stuff, technical 

828
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,900
Innovation, we've got all kinds 
of problems. 

829
00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:47,700
Obviously a red knows all about 
that but we also have the 

830
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:53,400
opportunity for a level of of 
greatness that does not exist 

831
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,400
elsewhere, right? 
And like maybe closer to the 

832
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,300
main theme of you guys that 
show, right? 

833
00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:05,700
It's like I have no idea where 
the person who invents a amazing

834
00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:09,100
way to like suck carbon dioxide 
out of the atmosphere will be 

835
00:45:09,100 --> 00:45:15,700
born like, could be anywhere, 
but I have a really strong odds 

836
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,500
that that company that does that
stuff will be an American 

837
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:22,100
company. 
You know like that person is 

838
00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:24,600
going to come now. 
Maybe not right you could 

839
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,400
imagine it China Japan Germany. 
There's like a few other 

840
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,100
plausible contenders but they're
also pretty big countries in the

841
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:36,100
scheme of things and now like it
could totally be a person from 

842
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,500
Iceland or you know Honduras or 
God knows where but they are 

843
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:45,300
going to migrate to a big 
country with big cities, a big 

844
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:49,100
base of investors and 
technically skilled people and 

845
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:53,100
customers and a A government 
that can think in terms of big 

846
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:57,200
projects, because just like, 
that's how the state-of-the-art 

847
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,800
moves forward, and nothing 
against New Zealand, or 

848
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,900
Portugal, or the Czech Republic 
or there's lots of nice little 

849
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:05,100
countries out there. 
You know? 

850
00:46:05,100 --> 00:46:07,700
And every once in a while they 
give us something like Legos at 

851
00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:12,800
a Denmark but like the big stuff
gets done by the big countries 

852
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:18,100
and that's like a deep in 
America's DNA and fiber and I 

853
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:20,600
don't think we should like 
reject that and like shrink 

854
00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:22,800
Ourselves down. 
I think we should embrace it. 

855
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,800
One of the long-running debates 
on the show although we've 

856
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,000
mostly had people who think the 
answer is yes. 

857
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,400
And I believe you will think 
this as well. 

858
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:32,900
People listening should have 
kids, right? 

859
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,000
If they're like I don't know 
because of the climate you're 

860
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,200
saying just have kids, your kid 
might solve climate change. 

861
00:46:38,900 --> 00:46:42,200
Yeah, I mean, there's that and 
there's I mean, Look, if you 

862
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,800
don't want to have kids don't 
have kids, right? 

863
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,800
And if you want to come up with 
a high-minded reason for it you 

864
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,800
can say climate change is the 
reason. 

865
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,100
I mean that's fine. 
I just like I mean I was a 

866
00:46:52,107 --> 00:46:55,900
philosophy major in college and 
I don't really go deep into this

867
00:46:55,900 --> 00:46:59,500
population ethic stuff but it's 
like everybody understands that 

868
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:02,700
like Thanos is the villain and 
the Avengers movies. 

869
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,200
I don't want to that everyone 
does. 

870
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,500
But yes. 
Okay well I mean I mean who 

871
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:09,200
knows? 
I got some weird callers from 

872
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,000
like Marin County and that that 
really We made me wonder but 

873
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,800
like, just not having there. 
Be people is not a solution to 

874
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,900
problems, like it's a, you're 
just like you're looking through

875
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:23,800
the telescope in the wrong 
direction. 

876
00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:28,000
It's like, yeah, the the 
tacitus, the the Romans, what, 

877
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,100
created A Wasteland and call it 
peace. 

878
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,900
Like there's no problem if 
there's no humans, but yeah, 

879
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:33,900
it's like yeah. 
Okay. 

880
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:35,900
I like, I mean if you don't want
to have children, you don't want

881
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:37,000
to have children. 
Like that's fine. 

882
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,100
I have one kid. 
I'm very happy with that. 

883
00:47:39,100 --> 00:47:41,900
I feel like to would be very 
stressful, but like, I'm going 

884
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:46,700
to tell you that I did that for 
other people, you don't have 

885
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:50,100
him, it just makes my life 
easier to have a small family. 

886
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,000
This one Viewpoint that is like 
well people are the solution 

887
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,300
because you know, like who might
invent like the next great. 

888
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:57,800
I don't know. 
A solar panel that works at 

889
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,900
night or something but it's just
more than that. 

890
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:03,200
It's not like people are the 
topic of the discussion. 

891
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,300
So to just say, like, well if we
didn't have any people then we 

892
00:48:06,300 --> 00:48:08,500
wouldn't have the problem. 
Like that's weird. 

893
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:12,100
That's neither here nor there 
and you know, like some Day. 

894
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,500
One of these like nutty, spree 
Killers who pop up every once in

895
00:48:15,508 --> 00:48:18,100
a while and do something. 
Horrifying will write in their 

896
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:20,200
Manifesto. 
That like they're really worried

897
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,900
about climate change and then 
conservatives are going to all 

898
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:26,400
go dunk on the left about it. 
That's going to be shitty and 

899
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,400
unfair. 
But but like it's shitty an 

900
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,400
unfair because I nobody actually
thinks that just like 

901
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,900
extirpating. 
Humanity is a fix quote-unquote 

902
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:39,300
to environmental problems and so
it's been a perverse. 

903
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,800
You know, I I have Gotten some 
reviews by people on the left 

904
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,000
who are like, oh man, like this 
is really terrible on climate 

905
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,800
grounds, but none of the people 
on the left who say that seemed 

906
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,300
to actually disagree with me, 
that we should have a generous 

907
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:58,600
immigration policy, or that we 
should spend money on preschool 

908
00:48:58,700 --> 00:49:00,400
and we should have paid parental
leave. 

909
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,600
So it's a little like where's 
the beef here? 

910
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:07,400
Like there was this old school 
like real dystopian thread in 

911
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,300
the environmental movement where
they were like all tied in with 

912
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:13,000
population control? 
People and anti-immigration 

913
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,500
people, but they decided like 20
or 30 years ago, that that was 

914
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:19,200
racist and bad and wrong, and 
they're right. 

915
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,100
But then like they need to own 
that and you can't just like 

916
00:49:22,100 --> 00:49:24,400
opportunistically invoke climate
change. 

917
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,200
So we had a your colleague David
Roberts on Once Upon a Time and 

918
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,600
I don't think he would mind me 
saying this. 

919
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,000
I will think about it before and
edit it if I need to. 

920
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,000
But got a lot of nasty notes 
about it because we tried so 

921
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,400
hard to be like, David surely, 
surely there's something worth 

922
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,200
saving. 
Right-of-center this 

923
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,000
conservative idea is that have 
some value. 

924
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,500
There are things happening with 
Republicans and climate. 

925
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,000
There are things to hope for, he
was very nice, but gave Very 

926
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,200
little ground on that. 
Wait, Matt. 

927
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,600
So is there anything you'd like 
to add as an addendum to David's

928
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,300
visit? 
So look, I mean, on one level, I

929
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:08,300
think I agree with his 
perspective which is that the 

930
00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:12,900
institutional Republican party 
is not just sitting there 

931
00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:17,300
waiting for a more reasonable 
climate proposal. 

932
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,000
And then they'll say, hey, yeah,
like let's do a bipartisan 

933
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,700
climate Bill, like the reason 
they don't want to do that is 

934
00:50:23,700 --> 00:50:28,500
more fundamental That being said
like I think I mean, again, I 

935
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:31,200
I'd look at Los Angeles, I look 
at New York City, you know, like

936
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,900
you've look at places where 
Republicans are not a factor and

937
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:39,400
you ask yourself like are these 
guys doing what it really takes 

938
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,700
to address climate change and 
they're not, you know, they're 

939
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:48,000
tied up in nimbyism and like d 
growth stuff and not really 

940
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,900
contributing in a meaningful way
and it just goes to show that 

941
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:55,700
like the problem is bigger and 
more complex. 

942
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,700
Then the Republicans are bad. 
Right? 

943
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:04,600
What I think is true, is that 
so, say in 2016 Republicans had 

944
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,100
lost the election and lost 
control of the Senate and 

945
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:12,400
Democrats had filled, scalia's 
seat with Merrick Garland, and 

946
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,000
then Kennedy had gotten bored. 
And, you know, say like the past

947
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,200
four years have gone really 
differently that might have made

948
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,900
Republican party, Elites really 
sad about losing and they would 

949
00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:25,600
have said man we should stop 
losing elections. 

950
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,400
And it seems like our climate 
denialism is really unpopular, 

951
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,900
so, maybe we should come to the 
table with some climate 

952
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:33,900
Solutions. 
And there's plenty of 

953
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:37,300
right-of-center people who have 
reasonable climate solution, 

954
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:41,400
ideas, just like, waiting there 
for Republicans to say, they 

955
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,800
want them, right? 
They don't want them is the 

956
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,200
problem. 
And so if you beat them badly 

957
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:53,600
and make them sad, they might go
use those Solutions, you know, I

958
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,100
just like anybody else, right? 
So it's like when Jay, Kratz, 

959
00:51:56,100 --> 00:51:59,800
lost enough elections in a row. 
They decided they were tired of 

960
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,000
everybody thinking. 
They had no ideas on crime. 

961
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,000
And so they came up with some 
ideas, right? 

962
00:52:04,100 --> 00:52:06,400
Like if we Republicans lose, 
they'll come up with ideas on 

963
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,300
the environment. 
There's smart people, they're 

964
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:11,300
not evil people even. 
It's just that like right now, 

965
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,600
they think their current posture
is a winning strategy, you know,

966
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,100
so I say climate change, they 
say oh you want to ban 

967
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:20,300
hamburgers so I don't know. 
Like that's that's dumb, that's 

968
00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:24,800
a juvenile approach to politics 
but that's where we're at right 

969
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,000
now. 
But the The solution isn't that 

970
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:33,100
there's going to be some Utopia 
like conservative politics, 

971
00:52:33,100 --> 00:52:39,200
right is basically you have the 
interests of businessmen and you

972
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:44,600
have the sort of socio-cultural 
majority saying it likes its way

973
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,800
of doing things, and that is the
most natural form of politics in

974
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:49,900
the world. 
Right? 

975
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:54,900
Like everywhere on the planet, 
there is conservative politics 

976
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:58,000
for that. 
What exactly it's content is 

977
00:52:58,100 --> 00:53:01,000
changes all the time. 
So it's like conservatism will 

978
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,400
always be with us and if you 
have Solutions like in Germany, 

979
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,000
they have some good climate 
policies because the 

980
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,100
conservative party like wanted 
to do them and that's how things

981
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:12,600
happen. 
It's like leftists it's like you

982
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,400
know we say things and we have 
ideas and we might win election 

983
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,900
sometimes but like things happen
because conservatives get on 

984
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:22,700
board. 
No, I actually agree with that. 

985
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:25,600
I think it is fair to say that 
in general. 

986
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:28,500
Neural politicians are 
opportunistic, they seek out 

987
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:33,300
power, Above All Else and that 
if there were a complete and 

988
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:36,800
total drubbing of the Republican
party in 2016, I do think that 

989
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,400
there is potentially some truth 
to the idea that maybe they 

990
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,900
would start adopting positions 
that were more popular among the

991
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:45,100
electorate. 
That does not currently support 

992
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:46,700
Republicans. 
I think that's I think that's 

993
00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:49,700
fair and legitimate. 
Yeah I don't I don't have much 

994
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:54,200
disagree with their, I will also
second that there are lots of 

995
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,000
people who are Trying to engage 
with conservatives and 

996
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,200
Republicans on issues of climate
change. 

997
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,500
I mean, Benji backer has been on
the show multiple times now, 

998
00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:06,600
talking about that, and they're 
bobbing list as well. 

999
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:07,800
There are plenty of groups like 
that. 

1000
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,900
So I think it's just a matter of
time before eventually these 

1001
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:16,000
things become so widespread. 
I mean, like culturally and I 

1002
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,900
thought you distinguish between 
these things pretty well 

1003
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:23,700
earlier, Matt that culturally 
like climate change is an issue 

1004
00:54:23,707 --> 00:54:27,600
that everyone is aware. 
Of more and more people are in 

1005
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,200
support of doing something 
about. 

1006
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,900
And it's just politics, that is 
lagging behind. 

1007
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:34,800
And there's no way that that 
doesn't catch up. 

1008
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:38,200
So I think we can be optimistic 
about that for the future. 

1009
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,600
It's just a matter of how do we 
make that happen as quickly as 

1010
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,800
possible. 
Yeah, and I mean the problem 

1011
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,700
with climate change, 
unfortunately, is that the 

1012
00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:51,600
timeline on which really bad 
things start happening, is just 

1013
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,600
pretty aggressive, you know? 
I mean so you know so it's like 

1014
00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:00,000
Obama like to quote, Martin 
Luther King about how the Arc of

1015
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,100
the universe is long but it 
bends toward Justice, right? 

1016
00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:08,100
And so you know, in the 1880s 
like reconstruction is 

1017
00:55:08,100 --> 00:55:13,400
completely undone and then it 
takes 80 years after that to get

1018
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,200
to the Civil Rights Act, and the
Voting Rights Act. 

1019
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,500
And of course that's not like 
the end of racism or racial 

1020
00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:20,300
problems but it's a huge step 
forward but that 80-year 

1021
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:22,800
timeline. 
That's awful. 

1022
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:25,800
You know, for the people who 
lived under Jim Crow 4 Two and 

1023
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:30,200
three generations. 
And the good news is that we can

1024
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,100
now, like, big picture, it and 
said, well, we'll look back from

1025
00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:38,700
the year 2374 and say maybe that
wasn't so long, but if you know,

1026
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:44,300
irreparable harms are over ready
underway. 

1027
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:50,600
So it's like, natural for 
activists to just be impatient 

1028
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,700
and I never want to tell anyone 
to like hey, calm down, you 

1029
00:55:54,700 --> 00:55:57,900
know, the problems not sir. 
At the same time, like the 

1030
00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:03,400
political process is what it is.
And if say 2016, because it 

1031
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,600
seems like three presidential 
election losses in a row, is 

1032
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,500
kind of like a magic number 
which point a political party 

1033
00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:12,400
starts. 
Seriously rethinking things, but

1034
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,200
it's not like, you know, I don't
like I'm optimistic. 

1035
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,700
It's not like no, 
right-of-center people have good

1036
00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:21,000
ideas on climate change or that 
it's impossible to imagine a 

1037
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:24,100
conservative movement that 
Embraces meaningful climate 

1038
00:56:24,100 --> 00:56:27,100
action and just don't like it. 
Not going to happen like just 

1039
00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:30,900
for no reason or because I write
like a really good take about 

1040
00:56:30,900 --> 00:56:33,900
bipartisan Solutions. 
It's like there has to be an 

1041
00:56:33,900 --> 00:56:37,700
electoral event that makes the 
people who are leaders in that 

1042
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:41,700
movement say, you know, the like
gun nuts and the anti-abortion 

1043
00:56:41,700 --> 00:56:44,700
Fanatics and like, they need to 
say, man, I don't want to lose 

1044
00:56:44,700 --> 00:56:49,100
elections over this like right? 
Coal-mining nonsense. 

1045
00:56:49,100 --> 00:56:51,300
Like, who cares? 
And that's how Coalition 

1046
00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:53,500
politics works, right? 
Like people get thrown under the

1047
00:56:53,500 --> 00:56:56,200
bus. 
The people who didn't, See like 

1048
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,200
gay couples, get married, like, 
who knows what happened to them,

1049
00:56:59,300 --> 00:57:00,800
right? 
Like, right Republicans. 

1050
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,400
Put them in the deep freezer 
someplace because I became an 

1051
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,100
embarrassing issue. 
It's sort of counterintuitive to

1052
00:57:06,100 --> 00:57:08,700
think. 
But like, I mean, if you are a 

1053
00:57:08,707 --> 00:57:12,600
conservative or Republican and 
you don't like the green New 

1054
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:16,500
Deal, then you have to engage on
the issue because if you're not 

1055
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,500
even participating in that 
conversation, then there's no 

1056
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:21,800
bulwark against that and it's 
just going to be continued like 

1057
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,500
one-sided policy discussion, 
right? 

1058
00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:29,200
I mean and I would love Love to 
see a more pro-growth. 

1059
00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:35,300
Technology-focused, but serious,
not like, oh well, solve it with

1060
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:37,300
technology. 
So we don't need to do this 

1061
00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:44,500
regulation but like, here's my 
300 billion, huge moonshot 

1062
00:57:44,500 --> 00:57:48,700
techno Utopia like do something.
You know, like something big, 

1063
00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:50,900
and then we can have a debate 
about that but right now it's 

1064
00:57:50,900 --> 00:57:56,400
like well, you have a couple big
ideas Rolling through 

1065
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,000
environmental circles. 
And then you've got, you know, I

1066
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,300
don't know what, you know, 
you've got. 

1067
00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:04,500
Like let's pretend that 
windmills are going to make 

1068
00:58:04,500 --> 00:58:07,500
birds extinct and you know 
that's that's dumb. 

1069
00:58:07,500 --> 00:58:09,400
This suck a lot of dumb stuff in
pain. 

1070
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:10,500
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1071
00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:13,200
I mean government is really good
at some things and its really 

1072
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:17,100
bad at doing other things and I 
think we would all benefit if 

1073
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:20,300
there were more Diversified 
voices discussing like how to 

1074
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:24,800
actually achieve these goals 
like I would so much rather have

1075
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,700
the government. 
Spend its resources, investing 

1076
00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:31,600
in research and development of 
Technologies and Grant programs 

1077
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,900
for things like converting to 
regenerative agriculture or 

1078
00:58:33,908 --> 00:58:35,700
whatever. 
I would rather not see the 

1079
00:58:35,700 --> 00:58:39,000
government create a jobs like a 
make-work program that's 

1080
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,700
intended to solve like some 
social problem at the same time 

1081
00:58:42,700 --> 00:58:45,200
as currying. 
Environmentalism and that's just

1082
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:49,000
like not a discussion that 
anyone is open to having right 

1083
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,800
now but it sounds like you are 
and I wish more people were like

1084
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,500
that. 
So electoral politics, right? 

1085
00:58:54,500 --> 00:58:57,400
Is zero sub. 
Like, only one person can be 

1086
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,200
president. 
Only one person can went out 

1087
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:03,100
seat, but policy is positive. 
So, you know what I mean? 

1088
00:59:03,100 --> 00:59:06,900
Like, if you, if you have a 
serious conversation, we're one 

1089
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:10,400
person says, my top priority is 
to reduce carbon dioxide 

1090
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,900
emissions. 
And somebody else says my top 

1091
00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:16,900
priority is to have a vibrant 
Farm economy like their ways to 

1092
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:20,800
reconcile, those two things, if 
people State their top 

1093
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,600
priorities and then they want to
reconcile them. 

1094
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,300
And that's true for like, any 
too. 

1095
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,700
Priorities right? 
It's like we human beings are 

1096
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:32,600
smart and we can make win-win 
deals on pretty much any topic, 

1097
00:59:32,700 --> 00:59:35,000
but you have to want to make a 
deal, right? 

1098
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:40,500
You have to accept the premise 
that we should be doing 

1099
00:59:40,500 --> 00:59:45,600
something on the climate front, 
rather than using the issue 

1100
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:52,000
opportunistically to win votes 
and we're just, haven't been 

1101
00:59:52,300 --> 00:59:55,100
there, you know what I mean? 
Like, we haven't been. 

1102
00:59:55,600 --> 01:00:00,700
In a place where elected 
officials but I mean on climate 

1103
01:00:00,700 --> 01:00:04,400
elected officials on the right 
in particular have not wanted to

1104
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,900
reach a deal. 
They've just construed a deal on

1105
01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:11,300
a climate bill would be a win 
for the Left, Right? 

1106
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,200
Double a lot of fun. 
Thanks for coming out and 

1107
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:14,900
hanging with us. 
Matt, thank you. 

1108
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:19,200
And yeah, one last question. 
I'll make it a short one though.

1109
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:23,300
What are the odds that we get to
1 billion Americans the century?

1110
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,700
I don't know. 
The odds are against it but I 

1111
01:00:26,707 --> 01:00:29,500
don't think it's wildly, 
implausible. 

1112
01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:32,200
We would need to achieve 
something like Canada's 

1113
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,900
population growth rate. 
So, you know if enough people 

1114
01:00:34,900 --> 01:00:38,200
buy the book, I'll Justin's are 
going to be like, hey I guess we

1115
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,300
want a billion Americans, I 
guess I should read it, you 

1116
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:41,300
know, and then we'll get it 
done. 

1117
01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:44,900
So it's really on you. 
The podcast listening, audience 

1118
01:00:44,900 --> 01:00:46,200
to decide whether or not it 
happens. 

1119
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,300
I can't predict my own sales. 
You are a professional. 

1120
01:00:49,300 --> 01:00:52,300
That was so skillfully. 
Executed, where should someone 

1121
01:00:52,300 --> 01:00:53,800
buy this if they want to 
support? 

1122
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:54,500
What? 
You're up to. 

1123
01:00:55,100 --> 01:00:57,600
Well, I mean, it depends, you 
know, if you are a sort of Neo 

1124
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,000
pastoralist, you should buy it 
at your local independent 

1125
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,500
bookstore. 
You can go to book shop.com and 

1126
01:01:03,500 --> 01:01:05,100
order it from them. 
And that's great. 

1127
01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:07,400
We'd love independent, 
bookstores, in the book game, on

1128
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,100
the other hand, you know, if you
are a techno modernist, you 

1129
01:01:11,100 --> 01:01:14,100
might think, an e-book is a lot 
more environmentally friendly, 

1130
01:01:14,300 --> 01:01:16,800
and we're available in the 
Google Play Store, Amazon 

1131
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,500
Kindle, whatever apples 
bookstore is called, I think, 

1132
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:21,600
just Apple Books. 
So it's everywhere. 

1133
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,500
Also audiobook, if you just love
my voice, so, Watch. 

1134
01:01:24,500 --> 01:01:28,800
I actually read the audiobook 
script so you can hear me ramble

1135
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,200
even more on Audible and other 
platforms. 

1136
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,500
So this really a lot of great 
ways to buy this book. 

1137
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:38,200
There's no wrong way to do it. 
Okay, link links in the show 

1138
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,000
notes of. 
Go ahead Paul, what's that a 

1139
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,100
magic? 
So I can vouch for the 

1140
01:01:41,100 --> 01:01:44,100
audiobook. 
I listen to it in one go while I

1141
01:01:44,107 --> 01:01:46,000
was driving home from 
California. 

1142
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:47,900
A couple weeks ago. 
So there you go. 

1143
01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:51,600
Yeah, it's a good. 
Listen, there's also a factual 

1144
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:53,800
error about the population of 
Detroit. 

1145
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,400
In the text, which is corrected 
in the audiobook. 

1146
01:01:57,500 --> 01:02:00,700
So, excellent, real-time 
updates, you can get less fake 

1147
01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:05,100
news about a population of 
Detroit back media by consuming 

1148
01:02:05,100 --> 01:02:09,200
an audio, great great. 
Well thanks again, Matt. 

1149
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:10,400
Thank you, Matt. 
Thank you. 

1150
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:12,800
Yeah. 
Thanks for being on this one. 

1151
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,200
If you like the show, please 
bring review us on iTunes or 

1152
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:16,800
apple podcast that is these 
days. 

1153
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,400
The reviewing really helps helps
get this content out to more 

1154
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,100
people. 
Thanks so much for listening. 

1155
01:02:21,100 --> 01:02:23,300
Tell your friends, and we 
appreciate it. 

1156
01:02:28,300 --> 01:02:29,500
Well, thank you so much for 
listening. 

1157
01:02:29,500 --> 01:02:31,900
If you like the show, please 
rate and review it in apple 

1158
01:02:31,900 --> 01:02:35,100
podcast and or Stitcher. 
It really helps us a lot to get 

1159
01:02:35,100 --> 01:02:36,800
this content to a wider 
audience. 

1160
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,500
If you think what we're doing is
useful, interesting fun. 

1161
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,900
Hopefully, all three, we 
certainly appreciate your rating

1162
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:44,100
and review. 
You can keep up with Nori at nor

1163
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:46,300
e.com where there is a 
newsletter that's Nori 

1164
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:49,300
.com/srobiyt. 
There's podcast, there's a whole

1165
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:52,900
bunch else or you can send us an
email at podcast at nor e.com. 

1166
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,400
We are also now now on patreon 
at patreon.com slash Nori 

1167
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,700
podcast, if you'd like more 
content engagement and community

1168
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:01,700
and thank you so much for your 
support