You're listening to the reversing climate change,
podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace.
This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs
developing solutions to climate change.
Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change
podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon today I have
with me. Dr. Will shroob our assistant,
professor of architectural, engineering and Material
Science, at University of Colorado Boulder, technical
director of materials are India. Patera and co-chair of the
carbon leadership Forum Network. And you also serve as the Global
Hub director. Do you have much free time?
Well, I do get enough. Sleep occasionally, that's good.
I'm happy to hear that. Well a colleague of mine passed
me your article at the conversation called buildings,
grown by bacteria. New research is finding ways to
turn cells and too many factories for materials
naturally. This caught my attention.
I imagine someone Thing has never heard anything quite like
this, unless they're already plugged into the space.
So what is happening with Materials Science?
What inspired you to write this? What is going on?
Yeah, you know, I agree. I think I think it's a an
interesting thought provoking proposal but a little bit about
me. I grew up on the plains of
Southeast Texas on a cotton Farm in cattle ranch, and to me going
outside, living on a farm. Everything was very much alive.
And I remember driving into the city, big city of Houston to go
to baseball games, I'm at the Astrodome with my dad and first
being in awe that humans could build such structures.
It's what really inspired me to become a structural engineer.
But I realized that when you, when you go into the city,
everything is quite sterile and quite static.
And what is human? You know, as human.
And then what is not the natural world, is really kind of
separated from that. You can kind of think of Stark
contrasts like Central Park. For example, where you have This
green space that is really nature, separated away from,
from what it, what is human and in that human space, the built
environment. You have materials like concrete
glass and steel that again are are quite sterile static, very
much not alive and you know, growing up on the farm and being
the generation that urbanized into cities.
I really found a Lot of inspiration in in that really in
blurring the boundaries between between what is natural and what
is built. And so throughout my career,
I've really dope into concept related to sustainability in the
built environment. Understanding environmental
impacts of building materials certainly energy consumption.
Certainly embodied carbon. But really in my, in my academic
research, we toy with discs these Ideas of bringing
buildings to life and really truly blurring those boundaries.
Why would you want a building to be alive or to blur the
distinctions between the organic and the built or the
human-created? Why would one even want to do
that? They're certainly great
research. There's certainly great research
that shows the benefits of biophilia and you know, right
now even today we're incorporating more and more
biomaterials into the built environment.
And the greatest example that I can give you right now, some
pioneering work that has come out of Europe and into the
United States and that's building with mass Timber.
And so now we are able To build large-scale structural systems
out of out of biomaterials and there are certainly perceived
benefits for for building with natural materials being exposed
to more natural environments even though you are indoors.
And that just leads to occupant productivity, occupant Comfort
feelings of Wellness, well-being, and even in Office
Buildings, you know, there's there's Is documented evidence
that shows people people are out sick less.
If they are in a building that has incorporated, a lot of
biophilia and certainly, you know, that that is that that's
certainly an attractive quality of those materials.
You know what my work does is take, take it one step further
and say, okay, we know that that would is a biomaterial, it was
once alive. But what we do with wood is we
do take it out of the forest and we store that carbon for a long
period of time. And what we're trying to ask is
Will perhaps there could be organisms that are that are kept
alive that make materials for us that are put into buildings and
that could serve some some useful functions while while in
while in use Okay, that makes sense.
I'm very curious to hear more about this biophilia angle,
something that I've noticed that's related in Seattle that
the lot sizes are not always super big.
So people have to maximize spaces but the way that they do,
this feels very much out of sync with the neighborhood and the
rest of the houses on it, you'll often see houses that are.
I've seen some that are like Cape Cod, that they've added an
extra Two or a giant modern Farmhouse.
That is a story or two grander than much of these.
Like very old Tudor style homes or craftsman that are supposed
to blend in and blend it in the same way.
Like I grew up very close to Taliesin West in Arizona.
I remember going and seeing Frank Lloyd Wright's home in
school, they're being really impressed with the Prairie
School aesthetic of trying to not dominate the environment
that you're in. But the sort of blend in almost
Most and biophilia is maybe another way of going towards
having a well-integrated living space.
Am I halfway on to something? Here you are.
I mean, you're toying with Concepts, you're kind of talking
about disappearing buildings and how buildings can kind of
disappear into into the natural environment.
That's exactly what, what what biophilia tries to do and
certainly what I believe should be really the Primary goal of
modern architecture is, but again, that's that's my
perspective. And my opinion certainly there
are others Yeah, is there anyone who just defends just like high
modernism or brutalism? And that's just, what they'll of
concrete and like those guys are out there.
They have to be right. Well, you know, I think that's
my evil twin because I also share a huge passion for
concrete. I think it's a exceptional
material. It has so many benefits, you
know, no other material is is moldable formable as durable.
But you know or you know no other material is used more in
the world than concrete. So concrete as we know it is the
second most consumed material on Earth after water, it is shaped
Humanity as we know it. But really, what there are
consequences to its ubiquity so concrete as many of your
listeners, may know concrete is a huge carbon emitter up to 8%
of our CO2, emissions can be attributed to cement and
concrete manufacture use and Disposal.
So it's a, it's a pretty gnarly Thorn for the construction
industry. But, you know, I have this
Love/Hate relationship with concrete because it is such a,
such a wonderful material. Are there ways to improve
concrete? What we've done some episodes on
on, actually how to make it less admitting than conventional ways
of producing it? It.
But as are also ways to make it aesthetically closer to this
biophilic Vision that we're having and other types of
materials in the built environment is anything
happening like that or is that still very far away?
Yeah, well they're these really great examples of these
undulating forms and hyperbolic shapes.
There's some Architects few decades ago that were playing
around with this in Mexico. And in some parts of Spain,
Santiago calatrava structures, certain certainly speak to a
more organic form. The problem with those forms
though is that it's actually quite expensive to get concrete
in those types of shapes and in those shapes in that, Eyes.
That's why the promise of 3D printing is.
So 3D printing is so appealing for folks who know and love
concrete because you can, you can make those those forms and
shapes Much More Much More economically.
Right now. The development of the 3D
printing technology with concrete, though, is such that,
we're not yet able to realize all of those benefits quite yet.
I think we're kind of in the in, in the, in the trough of
disillusionment. Disappointment right now with 3D
printing, but I expect that in the next 10 years, they'll be a
few breakthrough technologies that will enable us to build
biophilic forms, and economically out of concrete.
Every so often I'll see amazing prototypes or people who printed
a house. And I imagine this sort of like,
somewhat egalitarians open source.
A future where you're downloading CAD designs, and
then printing your house based on modular units that you can
attach together. And also the possibilities of
basically starting from scratch to a re using that material and
redoing your house in a very simple way, this is definitely
very science fiction is that a possibility within my lifetime
that I could just be redoing my house and redoing it based on 3D
printing. I I would say yes.
Let's go out of concrete but possibly more more.
So out of different materials, like Earth-like rammed Earth
Earthen structures. That would possibly be a little
bit easier to recycle and reuse the problem right now, with with
3D printing of concrete, is that you need first off, not very
many. People are 3D printing with
actual concrete. Their printing with cement paste
which is a lot of cement. Aunt and some water and and you
probably know from previous podcasts that cement is the
culprit in terms of carbon emissions.
So you know per per volume 3D printing 3D.
Printed concrete is certainly more environmentally unfriendly
than say, just a regular volume of concrete.
But you know, the if you kind of take a look at rammed Earth
Construction, And how its constructed.
It's almost as if it's 3D printed by hand already.
You know, you have these forms in which Earth is placed in
between the forums and it stamped and slowly layer by
layer the the rammed Earth structure, you know, Rises rises
from the ground. It's a lot like slip Form
Construction for high-rise buildings and concrete, but but
it's really made out of Earth. So those those structures.
I believe are a little bit more recyclable reusable.
And so I think you're onto something with thinking about
the possibilities of drawing up you know, in CAD or some 3D
modeling software what you want your next house to be.
So instead of just remodeling the furniture, you're remodeling
the entire structure and 3D printing with Mormon with
materials that are that are recyclable.
And reusable, like licker, Yeah, I love that idea.
Okay, well, rammed Earth sounds. So there's this somewhat of a
spectrum with past orientation, and maybe future orientation,
and some of these actually living almost bacterial
buildings. That's not great.
Good branding, don't use that. But okay, not not bacterial
buildings, but eventually you have brand Earth which sounds
low Tech and old school. And then also, I sit at a place
in Japan while I think this came up on.
Kate Simon in or Andrew Hines is episode but it Was a form of
adobe. Basically, that had was a straw
and mud construction, something like that, and very cool and
low-tech. But also, apparently, the
heating and cooling properties of it worked very well that we
don't know that we've created something out of our heads that
has worked better than that in some cases.
So those are all part of this biophilic kind of space.
That is experiencing a Resurgence and you're on this
cutting edge, trying to say, actually there's a lot more we
can do. Does that kind?
Of right? Absolutely.
You know, I really do think that The building industry will be
returning to some what we would consider primitive forms of
construction, like, Adobe and utilizing more agricultural
products, agricultural. Wastes like straw and hemp fiber
and other types of biomass waste.
That would normally just compost out in the field, or
incinerated, for some biomass energy.
I really do see us Turning to those because we can get into
talking about the carbon footprint.
But what we would, what the challenges is making those
low-tech materials modern and high-tech.
And and I think that that's that's a that is something kind
of a grand opportunity in a grand challenge for material,
scientists like me and in like others, who are again, trying to
to find new and creative ways of lowering the car.
Footprint of the built environment and transitioning it
from a carbon the industry, the construction industry from a
carbon emitter into a carbon sink.
My work at the University and at y will say, you know, folks who
are who are in the industry today, you know, the, the
katara's of the world who have sought have, you know, we seen
much promise in Mass Timber and utilizing more bio fiber in
construction. So it is already becoming a
Ality what my academic research does.
On the other hand is try to get people to see beyond the
Primitive materials so that we land somewhere in the middle,
right? You know, I think that we have a
lot of provocative examples of using photosynthetic bacteria
and algae as starting precursors to make materials that really
grow the materials for us and while those Solutions I think
are You know, decades away, I'm hoping to nudge the industry in
the direction of using other biomass.
That's perhaps nonliving anymore and infusing that waste, using
that waste product as a starting precursor for materials and
construction today. And even tomorrow, how do you
take quote-unquote primitive building.
Building materials and modernize them.
But like, how would you modernize a do bi magic people
must be working on stuff like this.
Yeah, they are. But you know what's really
lacking right now in the, in the field, our engineering codes and
standards really good? Technical data predictable,
productized materials that have repeatable, consistent
properties and so it is a, it is a gnarly Wicked problem, that
that spans Material Science, Structural Engineering codes and
standards Policies, you know, law making all of that really,
to get a new, a new material into practice in the
construction industry. I mean, it takes an army and it
takes multiple, you know, it's kind of a Swiss army knife
really, you know, multiple tools to to unlock the potential.
But I really do think what we're seeing right now in the carbon
space, you know, the Bay Area. Ria low-carbon concrete code,
the city of Portland just adopted a low-carbon concrete
procurement policy, the by Clean bills in California and
Washington, I really do think that the policy levers are being
pulled and it's really the right time for Material Science, and
Engineering, and codes to all come together to see this
massive infusion of new high tech low.
Impact materials in construction.
Interesting, how I wouldn't expect it to go that direction
but that makes sense. And I also Imagine That
insurers. Probably play a pretty big role
in this too. Certainly, you know, I had a few
conversations with some folks in the the insurance space and you
know we we certainly do need examples, you know, we do need
prototypes, we need projects that you do not necessarily take
take on the risk but you know D risk the technology.
You know we we need we need folks to help.
Help the risk a lot of the Technologies because you're
absolutely right, you know, the insurance folks or something the
insurance space is something that is is watching us as well
and that will ultimately need to be convinced otherwise it'll be
a no-go from a client perspective with using some of
these new materials. Okay I keep getting distracted
because this entire topic is fascinating but we should really
talk about this original article Maybe I'd just lay it out and
I'll swear, I'll try not to interrupt and take us down any
rabbit hole for now. The article that I wrote for the
conversation really compared buildings to to human bodies,
right? So you have the structure, which
is the skeleton, you have a skin that regulates temperature and
humidity and buildings generate waste.
And they're wired, you know, just like just like human bodies
are. But unlike human bodies
buildings, don't grow, they don't regenerate, they don't
self heal. And you know, for for someone
who really wants to blur the boundaries between the built
environment and the natural world this kind of introduces a
lot of what if what if questions so what if the walls and floors
and the roofs of buildings were alive and actually grown on site
and and perhaps you know what if we were able to keep those
materials alive so that they can interact.
Us. They can interact with the
environment. They can help us regulate
temperature humidity. They can signal to us when
perhaps, there's a virus or a something toxic in the air.
And, you know, I really do think with, with some of the
foundational research going on at universities, my in my lab
included, you know, we're a lot closer than one.
Might think, what's particularly exciting is that If there are,
there are organisms that make materials.
So if you kind of think about certainly there are plants that
make cellulose cellulosic materials, trees and hemp and
bamboo you know certainly that that is true for plants and
we're very accustomed to using those materials in construction.
But there are also other microorganisms like bacteria and
Enjoy who make that make materials that we could
potentially use in construction as well.
The best example I can give is cyanobacteria Marine sign of
bacteria, that make these wonderful Limestone.
Have these massive Limestone deposits that called
stromatolites that are kind of grown, you know, kind of grown
out of just precipitated minerals, just tiny little
mineral. By mineral by these Marine
cyanobacteria, which are photosynthetic and it grows this
massive rigid structure which is not unlike a concrete structure.
And the beautiful thing about about bacteria is that with the
onset of synthetic biology and the tool kits that have evolved
from that field, we are now able to decode the DNA of those
organisms understand which genes are involved in making In the
materials, how they make the materials, we can manipulate the
genes to make an architect different shaped materials of
different sizes. You know, this is some of the
work that has been going on in my lab in collaboration with a
bunch of talented, researchers at the University of Colorado.
We've shown that we've been able to basically encode the
blueprint of a mineral. All right, into the DNA of
bacteria and while that's on a very, very small scale.
If you extrapolate that to to the macroscopic scale, getting
to using, you know, getting to this concept of using bacteria,
to make other different types of materials for buildings, having
them retain, some living functionality in buildings.
You know, we're really not We're really not that far off, there's
so many angles that's wild and then I noticed I am.
I bacteria those exhale oxygen, right?
So you would probably have a nice working and living space,
that's oxygen-rich, it's really important for for me and, and
my, my research team. To use photosynthetic organisms.
And and so cyanobacteria are on the top of our list of organisms
that we think haven't been fully exploited in the carbon capture
carbon storage space as much as they could be.
Certainly you know there are these large scale cultivation
ponds of algae which are just you know, basically
cyanobacterial, cousins microalgae and and other types
of algae that Are certainly grown for biofuel production and
even some other food products, Cosmetics, etcetera
Pharmaceuticals. But you know, we're really the
first group to be asking questions, like how can large
scale? Cultivation of algae produced
building materials. How can we leverage
photosynthetic organisms that are so fast in growing and
fixing carbon dioxide right into their biomass?
How can we use? That carbon negative process to
produce a material that is suitable for use for use in
construction. So that's why, you know,
photosynthesis in general, especially rapid rapidly grown
materials, leveraging, photosynthesis is really, really
key to the carbon capture and storage solution space in the
construction industry. And, you know, people don't
normally We go beyond thinking about trees growing in a forest,
you know, trees are really slow growing.
I'm I'm a firm believer that we cannot rely solely on Woody
biomass grown in the forest. We have to turn to rapidly grown
photosynthetic organisms and plants like algae like
cyanobacteria like hemp straw grasses.
And if we allow that biomass to grow fix the Monoxide and if we
can encapsulate it, keep it encapsulated for long periods of
time. Well, I really do think that
that's the primary strategy by which, we can turn the built
environment into a carbon sink. Yeah, I love this.
It's so intriguing. So there's a vision of Housing
and buildings that is in the near future which is sort of
like everyone has a nest in a ring and everything can be
controlled by your Your smartphone and your house is
interactive and digital capacity, but then you've taken
this about 10 steps further, you're talking about programming
new types of microscopic life, that builds and retains its own
integrity, and I have been designed for specific functions
such that everything has been. I don't know, you've altered the
shape of of life in a very controlled way for an entire
building is that that is that what you're trying to do is that
the goal Yeah, I think you know I think people people think of
buildings of the future is being super electrified and you know
having these interactive wallpapers that that sense your
that sense that you're in the room and it's kind of like a,
you know, big touchscreen but you know, yeah.
I actually think that those could be bacterial cells that
are that are transmitting electrons to.
And from each other, there are bacterial communities that do
this that are electrically conductive and And certainly
their their Myriad of organisms that that light up, you know,
upon receiving some sort of stimulus.
Whether that be pH or light or humidity or carbon dioxide
they'll change colors. Like and for example like it,
you know like in that you see going on hikes in the Pacific
Northwest, some species of lichen will change color if
they're elevated levels of Of CO2 or other other toxic
chemicals and in the air. And, and so, you know, it's just
a matter of engineering those systems.
Those biological systems to be to exhibit those functionalities
in a very controlled, a very controlled way.
The other thing I'll mention is that, you know, the DNA of
organisms, you folks are kind of looking in at DNA as a way of
permanent storage instead of data centers.
He's, you know, we kind of think we need to keep building silicon
chips over and over and over again, but we could actually
grow some organisms that that store a lot more information,
right in our DNA strand. And those sequences, you know,
would be that that decoding mechanism, you know, to pull to
pull your old pictures out from out, from college and to look at
them. So there's there's there's some
really creative folks thinking about this.
And yes, again, it's a little bit science, fiction, e, but but
I see I see the clear the clear links in the chain, so the Ivory
Tower is it, is it that high? Yeah, I have two comments, one
of which is kind of silly which is reminds me there's a dystopic
version of this. That's basically akakura when I
have you seen that old Japanese film.
I have it but I've had a few colleagues.
Okay. So I'm not alone in thinking
that basically. Yeah, an organism that Absorbs
everything and just grows and grows and grows out of control,
but that's that's the silly one. And then I have a facil one,
which I will maintain. There's a distinction between
these two words that have used but like a cliche, 30.
Something that I am. I've been bringing a lot of
Kombucha lately. My my kombucha bills were just
too high and so the scoby is like the, the fungal matter that
grows on the top of a batch you reuse, those They only last I
think I've lived between 5 and 10 batches how do you make it?
So that your walls don't die have to be replaced.
Or how do you, how do you have a system that is continuous and
doesn't require intervention or do do all these systems?
Do you just have contractors in the future?
Who are biochemist, who come by? Yeah, I think the sky's the
limit with it with the imagination, you know what's
interesting? You bring up the point that
eventually, you know, Your kombucha starter eventually
dies. I usually get the question of
well what happens when you know my house becomes a skyscraper
you know that it just keeps growing and growing and growing
and becomes you know kind of The Blob and takes over the world
and and I go back to the exactly your last point the fundamental
biochemistry. If we, if we understand the, the
limits of growth and the conditions of growth of certain
Microorganisms that we can control it.
So for example, you know, we put food in the refrigerator, we put
yogurt in the refrigerator, it's in a lot, it's a living thing.
But we put it in the fridge because we want to keep the
bacterial metabolisms at Bay so that trigger of temperature,
keeping it cold, doesn't allow the bacteria to keep growing and
even producing gas as a production and that's produced
is by breaking down the lactose in the milk.
So The same is true for the materials we work on in the lab.
We understand the right levels of humidity and temperature and
moisture that would trigger bacterial growth.
And on the other end of the spectrum Spectrum trigger its
dormancy or hibernation and you know in the in when we think
about future applications, there could be microfluidics and
microenvironments. That trigger very localized
activities of different bacteria in much the same way that we
would wire a television. You have little to no LED light
bulbs, that must be wired every, we're providing just the right
nutrients and just the right conditions for the bacteria to
be switched on, or off, depending on on what we would
like them to do fascinating. So I'm going to continue in the
similar cliche. Jane where I've also been making
sauerkraut and kimchi, like I really, I really wish.
I could claim I started doing it before covid, but like everyone
else. I got really into it, but a lot
of this is supposed to be anaerobic and not exposed to
oxygen. So how do you there must be
different types of organisms that are?
Because I think when it's, when it is aerobic, there's a risk of
bad mold becoming present, but that isn't really a risk with
the types of microorganisms you're working, with know, No.
Certainly, there always is, there's always some
contamination issues that we have to think about.
You know, I equate the materials that we work on to a lot like
you know to bring more food into the picture.
I need a snack I think it's about snack time it's a lot like
a sourdough starter culture. If you can think of it that way
where you know our material starter cultures are such that
we grew up a dense culture of bacteria.
We enabled those bacteria to glue, our sand particles
together, by the minerals, and the polymers that they secrete.
But then we can control, we can stop the growth of those
bacteria. What we showed in a paper, a
couple months ago is that if we make up what we call a parent
generation, it's like your sourdough starter culture.
We can actually split a parent generation brick.
We can actually That brick into 2 and using the same starter
culture that's already existing. In the brick, those two halves
will grow into two full bricks and we completed that process to
subsequent times. So we made eight full bricks out
of one parent starter culture. For example it's just like how
sourdough keeps spawning new generations at an exponential
scale. If you share it with your
friends you know, exponential numbers.
Of children but you know, to your point, it's really
important for us since we are working with with aerobic
bacteria that we again control the conditions during
manufacturing and storage. We impart some antimicrobial
abilities to the to the materials.
So that no other organisms can can cross contaminate.
So it all goes back to that that microbiology and biochemistry
and understanding. Really the rules of the, of the
game, John? Okay?
That makes sense. Well, since I have you here,
could I ask you some questions about architecture and
Architectural trends? Yeah, absolutely.
So how long do you think is this sort of like having you know,
how to describe it? It's like obsession with open
space and minimalism going to last, I sort of, I'm craving
like a return to the Arts and Crafts kind of kind of moment.
Like where do you think what's happening next like, when are we
gonna get over this moment that we're in?
Now what do you think we're going to go?
You know, I this this exact question crossed my mind
yesterday when I was walking, when I was walking my dog
because we, we have a house in Boulder and boulders.
Actually, you know, a relatively load low dense low-density
community. And I was thinking about Urban
centers and how over the last two to three decades, we have
been fighting for densification, densification densification, and
in reality. The reality we're in now that
poses a lot of threats. And so I do think right now
they're there is some, there's a Confluence of different ideas of
wanting to make sure our cities are dense, wanting to give
access to kind of, you know, open space and parks.
And, and even again blurring these boundaries between between
nature and and what is What is healing, but I think a lot of
this is going to be called into question.
I think I would have had a different answer for you.
Six months ago, then what I do today because I think we're
going to be taking a more critical look at at office space
and and densification. And, and you know what that,
what that really means for cities of the future?
Yeah, one thing I've noticed too, is Seattle.
Okay. I live in Ballard.
That's Inori's offices and Ballard is a Scandinavian
historically, Scandinavian neighborhood, fishing
neighborhood and you'll see apartment buildings that have
names that are clearly a Norwegian.
But the they're not made in a Pacific Northwest vernacular,
they could be literally any apartment building from any big
city in the entire world. And so I know people want to get
back to using local materials. So you mentioned Katara and
cross laminated Timber and Using products that are closer to
home. Seattle.
I would like to see a lot more wood buildings.
I would like to see us get away from one-size-fits-all.
We all have the same house independent of which continent
we live on. There are benefits to
standardization but I think it's a bit soul-killing to There's
certainly there's a concept that I try to get across in virtually
every conversation. I have related to building
materials and kind of the vernacular and that's really
embracing the surrounding rural communities as the localized
breadbasket. If you will for fibrous
materials that are low impact low carbon that that that need
to To be embraced by every every municipality.
So, you know, Seattle, for example.
Yes. What is very much in the DNA of
of the region? But there are also again, you
know, some farming communities and agricultural spaces that
have that have up for offer some some biomass that could be
turned into high performance building materials.
And so I think you know, I do think It's interesting because
folks have traveled the world but extensively they've come
into contact with different styles and different forms of
architecture, but when I really do think about cities of the
future, I really do think of them as as Regional a regional
Nexus, that that is much more of the place.
And I think we're seeing that a little bit, a little bit.
Now, with with covid is I haven't, I haven't even Thought
about live leaving the Front Range of Colorado.
And I'm really looking to this region.
As really the extent of my of my of my reach in terms of
resources. And I think that that's just
going to occur on a slightly larger scale.
When City start to think about supply chain sustainability of
those Supply chains and materials for construction and
Architectural gems of the future.
Will not be excluded from that. Well I hope you are right.
At least it would make for a more interesting dog-walking
experiences that you've chosen to live your life and the
profession that you selected for yourself.
Clearly you think architecture and creating spaces is a key
part of our experience that is interacted with.
So regularly to be worth a lifetime of Labor.
Why do you think that is? I think a lot of people take
architecture for granted and maybe don't notice it as much as
they should. What do you think about that?
How could they learn more or dive into this in Greater detail
both as someone who may at some point like to own a home but
also as someone who wants to nerd out on this science, like
we're talking about, follow me on Twitter, I'm just kidding, I
will link to your Twitter, you don't do not worry.
My social media presence is a little Bleak, but so, and let's
see. So your question is, how can
people learn, learn a little bit more about About this space is
that it, it was your there's a big garbled.
Question your right to double-check.
But yeah, I guess, what's a good place for someone who wanted to?
I mean, part of it is I I named dropped a whole taxonomy of
different American housing Styles, and we talked a lot
about that. Where is a good place to start
wrapping your head around, how people think about spaces and
then I guess also, where would you direct them for some of
these Frontiers that you're working on and By the way, we
barely covered any of the stuff that you do.
So let's just have you back on again soon.
So, over the last five to ten years, I really do think the
construction industry has recognized at least in North
America. A critical need to understand
and and share resources around low, carbon low, carbon
construction, and what I really do is that Kate's immonen and
her founding of the carbon leadership Forum has really
served as the flagship Organization for professionals
to see examples and to get information, see examples of
successes and even some some challenges and even failures in
the in the in the building industry and really to work
together toward a low carbon and carbon negative future in In in
construction. So I would I would you know urge
folks to First follow follow my work.
So you know, my work has been featured in The New York Times.
I'm on NPR and we do have a website where we do publish a
lot of our work, but certainly key into the carbon leadership
Forum. If you're interested in learning
more about sustainable architecture, especially as it
as it pertains to low carbon. Low carbon construction.
Great. Well, thank you so much for
being here Will Yeah, thank you for having me.
It's been, it's not great. It's a lot of fun.
Well, thank you so much for listening.
If you like the show, please share it with a friend.
Give us a great rating and review on Apple podcasts.
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listening. I hope you enjoyed and have a
lovely day.