1 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:06,100 You're listening to the reversing climate change, 2 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:09,200 podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,800 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:13,700 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,300 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 6 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:20,500 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon today I have 7 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:22,400 with me. Dr. Will shroob our assistant, 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,900 professor of architectural, engineering and Material 9 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:28,000 Science, at University of Colorado Boulder, technical 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,600 director of materials are India. Patera and co-chair of the 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,900 carbon leadership Forum Network. And you also serve as the Global 12 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:37,000 Hub director. Do you have much free time? 13 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:43,000 Well, I do get enough. Sleep occasionally, that's good. 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,400 I'm happy to hear that. Well a colleague of mine passed 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,300 me your article at the conversation called buildings, 16 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:52,200 grown by bacteria. New research is finding ways to 17 00:00:52,208 --> 00:00:54,700 turn cells and too many factories for materials 18 00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:57,100 naturally. This caught my attention. 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,600 I imagine someone Thing has never heard anything quite like 20 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,400 this, unless they're already plugged into the space. 21 00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:06,600 So what is happening with Materials Science? 22 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:09,300 What inspired you to write this? What is going on? 23 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:15,000 Yeah, you know, I agree. I think I think it's a an 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:21,500 interesting thought provoking proposal but a little bit about 25 00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:24,400 me. I grew up on the plains of 26 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,900 Southeast Texas on a cotton Farm in cattle ranch, and to me going 27 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,000 outside, living on a farm. Everything was very much alive. 28 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:38,600 And I remember driving into the city, big city of Houston to go 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,400 to baseball games, I'm at the Astrodome with my dad and first 30 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,500 being in awe that humans could build such structures. 31 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:49,200 It's what really inspired me to become a structural engineer. 32 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:53,000 But I realized that when you, when you go into the city, 33 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:56,900 everything is quite sterile and quite static. 34 00:01:57,300 --> 00:02:00,100 And what is human? You know, as human. 35 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:03,300 And then what is not the natural world, is really kind of 36 00:02:03,308 --> 00:02:06,900 separated from that. You can kind of think of Stark 37 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:10,900 contrasts like Central Park. For example, where you have This 38 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:18,200 green space that is really nature, separated away from, 39 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,100 from what it, what is human and in that human space, the built 40 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:24,700 environment. You have materials like concrete 41 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:31,300 glass and steel that again are are quite sterile static, very 42 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:36,000 much not alive and you know, growing up on the farm and being 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,300 the generation that urbanized into cities. 44 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:45,400 I really found a Lot of inspiration in in that really in 45 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,800 blurring the boundaries between between what is natural and what 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,900 is built. And so throughout my career, 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,100 I've really dope into concept related to sustainability in the 48 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:59,700 built environment. Understanding environmental 49 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:03,700 impacts of building materials certainly energy consumption. 50 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:07,700 Certainly embodied carbon. But really in my, in my academic 51 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:11,800 research, we toy with discs these Ideas of bringing 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,700 buildings to life and really truly blurring those boundaries. 53 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,600 Why would you want a building to be alive or to blur the 54 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,600 distinctions between the organic and the built or the 55 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,100 human-created? Why would one even want to do 56 00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:30,100 that? They're certainly great 57 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:32,300 research. There's certainly great research 58 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:35,900 that shows the benefits of biophilia and you know, right 59 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:40,100 now even today we're incorporating more and more 60 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:42,400 biomaterials into the built environment. 61 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,100 And the greatest example that I can give you right now, some 62 00:03:46,100 --> 00:03:50,000 pioneering work that has come out of Europe and into the 63 00:03:50,008 --> 00:03:53,100 United States and that's building with mass Timber. 64 00:03:53,500 --> 00:04:00,600 And so now we are able To build large-scale structural systems 65 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:06,100 out of out of biomaterials and there are certainly perceived 66 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,100 benefits for for building with natural materials being exposed 67 00:04:11,700 --> 00:04:15,300 to more natural environments even though you are indoors. 68 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:20,700 And that just leads to occupant productivity, occupant Comfort 69 00:04:21,100 --> 00:04:25,100 feelings of Wellness, well-being, and even in Office 70 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:27,400 Buildings, you know, there's there's Is documented evidence 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,100 that shows people people are out sick less. 72 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:33,200 If they are in a building that has incorporated, a lot of 73 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:39,600 biophilia and certainly, you know, that that is that that's 74 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,000 certainly an attractive quality of those materials. 75 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,700 You know what my work does is take, take it one step further 76 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:54,900 and say, okay, we know that that would is a biomaterial, it was 77 00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:59,200 once alive. But what we do with wood is we 78 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,800 do take it out of the forest and we store that carbon for a long 79 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,800 period of time. And what we're trying to ask is 80 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,000 Will perhaps there could be organisms that are that are kept 81 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,800 alive that make materials for us that are put into buildings and 82 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,600 that could serve some some useful functions while while in 83 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,200 while in use Okay, that makes sense. 84 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,800 I'm very curious to hear more about this biophilia angle, 85 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,700 something that I've noticed that's related in Seattle that 86 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:36,100 the lot sizes are not always super big. 87 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,100 So people have to maximize spaces but the way that they do, 88 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:45,700 this feels very much out of sync with the neighborhood and the 89 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:49,500 rest of the houses on it, you'll often see houses that are. 90 00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:52,200 I've seen some that are like Cape Cod, that they've added an 91 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,200 extra Two or a giant modern Farmhouse. 92 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,000 That is a story or two grander than much of these. 93 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,200 Like very old Tudor style homes or craftsman that are supposed 94 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,100 to blend in and blend it in the same way. 95 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:10,000 Like I grew up very close to Taliesin West in Arizona. 96 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,900 I remember going and seeing Frank Lloyd Wright's home in 97 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:16,100 school, they're being really impressed with the Prairie 98 00:06:16,100 --> 00:06:19,500 School aesthetic of trying to not dominate the environment 99 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:22,600 that you're in. But the sort of blend in almost 100 00:06:22,700 --> 00:06:26,700 Most and biophilia is maybe another way of going towards 101 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,000 having a well-integrated living space. 102 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:32,300 Am I halfway on to something? Here you are. 103 00:06:32,300 --> 00:06:35,800 I mean, you're toying with Concepts, you're kind of talking 104 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,200 about disappearing buildings and how buildings can kind of 105 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,200 disappear into into the natural environment. 106 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:47,800 That's exactly what, what what biophilia tries to do and 107 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:54,300 certainly what I believe should be really the Primary goal of 108 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,400 modern architecture is, but again, that's that's my 109 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,300 perspective. And my opinion certainly there 110 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:05,100 are others Yeah, is there anyone who just defends just like high 111 00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:07,900 modernism or brutalism? And that's just, what they'll of 112 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:10,300 concrete and like those guys are out there. 113 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:13,700 They have to be right. Well, you know, I think that's 114 00:07:13,700 --> 00:07:18,000 my evil twin because I also share a huge passion for 115 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,300 concrete. I think it's a exceptional 116 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:24,500 material. It has so many benefits, you 117 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:30,800 know, no other material is is moldable formable as durable. 118 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:36,100 But you know or you know no other material is used more in 119 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:39,800 the world than concrete. So concrete as we know it is the 120 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,000 second most consumed material on Earth after water, it is shaped 121 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:50,100 Humanity as we know it. But really, what there are 122 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:55,800 consequences to its ubiquity so concrete as many of your 123 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,300 listeners, may know concrete is a huge carbon emitter up to 8% 124 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:05,500 of our CO2, emissions can be attributed to cement and 125 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:09,200 concrete manufacture use and Disposal. 126 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,900 So it's a, it's a pretty gnarly Thorn for the construction 127 00:08:12,900 --> 00:08:15,800 industry. But, you know, I have this 128 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,100 Love/Hate relationship with concrete because it is such a, 129 00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:23,500 such a wonderful material. Are there ways to improve 130 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:25,200 concrete? What we've done some episodes on 131 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,800 on, actually how to make it less admitting than conventional ways 132 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:31,800 of producing it? It. 133 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,000 But as are also ways to make it aesthetically closer to this 134 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,400 biophilic Vision that we're having and other types of 135 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,600 materials in the built environment is anything 136 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,400 happening like that or is that still very far away? 137 00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:47,700 Yeah, well they're these really great examples of these 138 00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:50,400 undulating forms and hyperbolic shapes. 139 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,500 There's some Architects few decades ago that were playing 140 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:57,900 around with this in Mexico. And in some parts of Spain, 141 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,000 Santiago calatrava structures, certain certainly speak to a 142 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,300 more organic form. The problem with those forms 143 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:10,300 though is that it's actually quite expensive to get concrete 144 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:14,900 in those types of shapes and in those shapes in that, Eyes. 145 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,000 That's why the promise of 3D printing is. 146 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,400 So 3D printing is so appealing for folks who know and love 147 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,400 concrete because you can, you can make those those forms and 148 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,700 shapes Much More Much More economically. 149 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,100 Right now. The development of the 3D 150 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:34,300 printing technology with concrete, though, is such that, 151 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,200 we're not yet able to realize all of those benefits quite yet. 152 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:44,300 I think we're kind of in the in, in the, in the trough of 153 00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:46,600 disillusionment. Disappointment right now with 3D 154 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,800 printing, but I expect that in the next 10 years, they'll be a 155 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:56,100 few breakthrough technologies that will enable us to build 156 00:09:56,100 --> 00:10:01,600 biophilic forms, and economically out of concrete. 157 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:06,500 Every so often I'll see amazing prototypes or people who printed 158 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:12,200 a house. And I imagine this sort of like, 159 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,300 somewhat egalitarians open source. 160 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,900 A future where you're downloading CAD designs, and 161 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:21,300 then printing your house based on modular units that you can 162 00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:24,900 attach together. And also the possibilities of 163 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,400 basically starting from scratch to a re using that material and 164 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,900 redoing your house in a very simple way, this is definitely 165 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:37,100 very science fiction is that a possibility within my lifetime 166 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:41,100 that I could just be redoing my house and redoing it based on 3D 167 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:46,200 printing. I I would say yes. 168 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,700 Let's go out of concrete but possibly more more. 169 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:53,300 So out of different materials, like Earth-like rammed Earth 170 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:55,500 Earthen structures. That would possibly be a little 171 00:10:55,500 --> 00:11:00,800 bit easier to recycle and reuse the problem right now, with with 172 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,100 3D printing of concrete, is that you need first off, not very 173 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:07,100 many. People are 3D printing with 174 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,200 actual concrete. Their printing with cement paste 175 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:15,900 which is a lot of cement. Aunt and some water and and you 176 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:19,200 probably know from previous podcasts that cement is the 177 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,200 culprit in terms of carbon emissions. 178 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,700 So you know per per volume 3D printing 3D. 179 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:32,500 Printed concrete is certainly more environmentally unfriendly 180 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,600 than say, just a regular volume of concrete. 181 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,800 But you know, the if you kind of take a look at rammed Earth 182 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,100 Construction, And how its constructed. 183 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,900 It's almost as if it's 3D printed by hand already. 184 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:53,100 You know, you have these forms in which Earth is placed in 185 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:56,300 between the forums and it stamped and slowly layer by 186 00:11:56,300 --> 00:12:01,300 layer the the rammed Earth structure, you know, Rises rises 187 00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:03,200 from the ground. It's a lot like slip Form 188 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,900 Construction for high-rise buildings and concrete, but but 189 00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:12,500 it's really made out of Earth. So those those structures. 190 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,600 I believe are a little bit more recyclable reusable. 191 00:12:16,700 --> 00:12:21,900 And so I think you're onto something with thinking about 192 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:27,100 the possibilities of drawing up you know, in CAD or some 3D 193 00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:30,500 modeling software what you want your next house to be. 194 00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,100 So instead of just remodeling the furniture, you're remodeling 195 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:39,000 the entire structure and 3D printing with Mormon with 196 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,900 materials that are that are recyclable. 197 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:44,700 And reusable, like licker, Yeah, I love that idea. 198 00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:49,500 Okay, well, rammed Earth sounds. So there's this somewhat of a 199 00:12:49,508 --> 00:12:53,000 spectrum with past orientation, and maybe future orientation, 200 00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:56,700 and some of these actually living almost bacterial 201 00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:57,600 buildings. That's not great. 202 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,900 Good branding, don't use that. But okay, not not bacterial 203 00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:04,300 buildings, but eventually you have brand Earth which sounds 204 00:13:04,300 --> 00:13:07,500 low Tech and old school. And then also, I sit at a place 205 00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:09,600 in Japan while I think this came up on. 206 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,900 Kate Simon in or Andrew Hines is episode but it Was a form of 207 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:16,500 adobe. Basically, that had was a straw 208 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:21,000 and mud construction, something like that, and very cool and 209 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,600 low-tech. But also, apparently, the 210 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,200 heating and cooling properties of it worked very well that we 211 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:28,800 don't know that we've created something out of our heads that 212 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,100 has worked better than that in some cases. 213 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,800 So those are all part of this biophilic kind of space. 214 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,200 That is experiencing a Resurgence and you're on this 215 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,300 cutting edge, trying to say, actually there's a lot more we 216 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:42,600 can do. Does that kind? 217 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,300 Of right? Absolutely. 218 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,700 You know, I really do think that The building industry will be 219 00:13:49,708 --> 00:13:54,200 returning to some what we would consider primitive forms of 220 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,800 construction, like, Adobe and utilizing more agricultural 221 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:04,000 products, agricultural. Wastes like straw and hemp fiber 222 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,400 and other types of biomass waste. 223 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,300 That would normally just compost out in the field, or 224 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:14,400 incinerated, for some biomass energy. 225 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:21,400 I really do see us Turning to those because we can get into 226 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:23,300 talking about the carbon footprint. 227 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,800 But what we would, what the challenges is making those 228 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,800 low-tech materials modern and high-tech. 229 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:35,600 And and I think that that's that's a that is something kind 230 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,400 of a grand opportunity in a grand challenge for material, 231 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,200 scientists like me and in like others, who are again, trying to 232 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,100 to find new and creative ways of lowering the car. 233 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:50,700 Footprint of the built environment and transitioning it 234 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,700 from a carbon the industry, the construction industry from a 235 00:14:53,708 --> 00:14:56,400 carbon emitter into a carbon sink. 236 00:14:56,900 --> 00:15:01,100 My work at the University and at y will say, you know, folks who 237 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:04,900 are who are in the industry today, you know, the, the 238 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:09,100 katara's of the world who have sought have, you know, we seen 239 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:14,800 much promise in Mass Timber and utilizing more bio fiber in 240 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,800 construction. So it is already becoming a 241 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,900 Ality what my academic research does. 242 00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:26,300 On the other hand is try to get people to see beyond the 243 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:30,600 Primitive materials so that we land somewhere in the middle, 244 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,800 right? You know, I think that we have a 245 00:15:33,808 --> 00:15:38,900 lot of provocative examples of using photosynthetic bacteria 246 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:43,500 and algae as starting precursors to make materials that really 247 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:47,900 grow the materials for us and while those Solutions I think 248 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:54,200 are You know, decades away, I'm hoping to nudge the industry in 249 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,600 the direction of using other biomass. 250 00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:07,400 That's perhaps nonliving anymore and infusing that waste, using 251 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,600 that waste product as a starting precursor for materials and 252 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,600 construction today. And even tomorrow, how do you 253 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,100 take quote-unquote primitive building. 254 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,100 Building materials and modernize them. 255 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,400 But like, how would you modernize a do bi magic people 256 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:25,900 must be working on stuff like this. 257 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,100 Yeah, they are. But you know what's really 258 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:33,000 lacking right now in the, in the field, our engineering codes and 259 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,600 standards really good? Technical data predictable, 260 00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:44,500 productized materials that have repeatable, consistent 261 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:50,200 properties and so it is a, it is a gnarly Wicked problem, that 262 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:56,000 that spans Material Science, Structural Engineering codes and 263 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:03,000 standards Policies, you know, law making all of that really, 264 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,500 to get a new, a new material into practice in the 265 00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:10,300 construction industry. I mean, it takes an army and it 266 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:15,200 takes multiple, you know, it's kind of a Swiss army knife 267 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,099 really, you know, multiple tools to to unlock the potential. 268 00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:24,500 But I really do think what we're seeing right now in the carbon 269 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:29,400 space, you know, the Bay Area. Ria low-carbon concrete code, 270 00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:32,200 the city of Portland just adopted a low-carbon concrete 271 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:38,500 procurement policy, the by Clean bills in California and 272 00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:42,300 Washington, I really do think that the policy levers are being 273 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:46,800 pulled and it's really the right time for Material Science, and 274 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Engineering, and codes to all come together to see this 275 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,900 massive infusion of new high tech low. 276 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:58,600 Impact materials in construction. 277 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,800 Interesting, how I wouldn't expect it to go that direction 278 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,800 but that makes sense. And I also Imagine That 279 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,800 insurers. Probably play a pretty big role 280 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:11,800 in this too. Certainly, you know, I had a few 281 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:17,800 conversations with some folks in the the insurance space and you 282 00:18:17,808 --> 00:18:25,600 know we we certainly do need examples, you know, we do need 283 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,700 prototypes, we need projects that you do not necessarily take 284 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:34,900 take on the risk but you know D risk the technology. 285 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:37,600 You know we we need we need folks to help. 286 00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:40,700 Help the risk a lot of the Technologies because you're 287 00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:44,000 absolutely right, you know, the insurance folks or something the 288 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:49,000 insurance space is something that is is watching us as well 289 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,900 and that will ultimately need to be convinced otherwise it'll be 290 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:57,800 a no-go from a client perspective with using some of 291 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,100 these new materials. Okay I keep getting distracted 292 00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:05,400 because this entire topic is fascinating but we should really 293 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,900 talk about this original article Maybe I'd just lay it out and 294 00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:11,700 I'll swear, I'll try not to interrupt and take us down any 295 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:18,900 rabbit hole for now. The article that I wrote for the 296 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:24,100 conversation really compared buildings to to human bodies, 297 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:27,300 right? So you have the structure, which 298 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:31,800 is the skeleton, you have a skin that regulates temperature and 299 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,400 humidity and buildings generate waste. 300 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,900 And they're wired, you know, just like just like human bodies 301 00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:42,600 are. But unlike human bodies 302 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,600 buildings, don't grow, they don't regenerate, they don't 303 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:52,000 self heal. And you know, for for someone 304 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,700 who really wants to blur the boundaries between the built 305 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:59,600 environment and the natural world this kind of introduces a 306 00:19:59,608 --> 00:20:05,400 lot of what if what if questions so what if the walls and floors 307 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,700 and the roofs of buildings were alive and actually grown on site 308 00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:14,800 and and perhaps you know what if we were able to keep those 309 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,400 materials alive so that they can interact. 310 00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:20,700 Us. They can interact with the 311 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:22,500 environment. They can help us regulate 312 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:25,800 temperature humidity. They can signal to us when 313 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:30,500 perhaps, there's a virus or a something toxic in the air. 314 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,700 And, you know, I really do think with, with some of the 315 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:40,900 foundational research going on at universities, my in my lab 316 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:45,000 included, you know, we're a lot closer than one. 317 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,400 Might think, what's particularly exciting is that If there are, 318 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,000 there are organisms that make materials. 319 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,100 So if you kind of think about certainly there are plants that 320 00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:03,000 make cellulose cellulosic materials, trees and hemp and 321 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,900 bamboo you know certainly that that is true for plants and 322 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:12,200 we're very accustomed to using those materials in construction. 323 00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:18,300 But there are also other microorganisms like bacteria and 324 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,000 Enjoy who make that make materials that we could 325 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,900 potentially use in construction as well. 326 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:29,900 The best example I can give is cyanobacteria Marine sign of 327 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,200 bacteria, that make these wonderful Limestone. 328 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,800 Have these massive Limestone deposits that called 329 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:44,000 stromatolites that are kind of grown, you know, kind of grown 330 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,200 out of just precipitated minerals, just tiny little 331 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,600 mineral. By mineral by these Marine 332 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,000 cyanobacteria, which are photosynthetic and it grows this 333 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:59,500 massive rigid structure which is not unlike a concrete structure. 334 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:06,300 And the beautiful thing about about bacteria is that with the 335 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:10,800 onset of synthetic biology and the tool kits that have evolved 336 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,400 from that field, we are now able to decode the DNA of those 337 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,100 organisms understand which genes are involved in making In the 338 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:23,800 materials, how they make the materials, we can manipulate the 339 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,300 genes to make an architect different shaped materials of 340 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,700 different sizes. You know, this is some of the 341 00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:36,000 work that has been going on in my lab in collaboration with a 342 00:22:36,008 --> 00:22:40,500 bunch of talented, researchers at the University of Colorado. 343 00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:46,200 We've shown that we've been able to basically encode the 344 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,900 blueprint of a mineral. All right, into the DNA of 345 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,300 bacteria and while that's on a very, very small scale. 346 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:03,800 If you extrapolate that to to the macroscopic scale, getting 347 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,000 to using, you know, getting to this concept of using bacteria, 348 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,400 to make other different types of materials for buildings, having 349 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:17,200 them retain, some living functionality in buildings. 350 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,400 You know, we're really not We're really not that far off, there's 351 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,800 so many angles that's wild and then I noticed I am. 352 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,400 I bacteria those exhale oxygen, right? 353 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,900 So you would probably have a nice working and living space, 354 00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:39,800 that's oxygen-rich, it's really important for for me and, and 355 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:45,900 my, my research team. To use photosynthetic organisms. 356 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:52,900 And and so cyanobacteria are on the top of our list of organisms 357 00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:56,900 that we think haven't been fully exploited in the carbon capture 358 00:23:56,900 --> 00:23:59,300 carbon storage space as much as they could be. 359 00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:02,900 Certainly you know there are these large scale cultivation 360 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:05,900 ponds of algae which are just you know, basically 361 00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:12,800 cyanobacterial, cousins microalgae and and other types 362 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,400 of algae that Are certainly grown for biofuel production and 363 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,300 even some other food products, Cosmetics, etcetera 364 00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:23,100 Pharmaceuticals. But you know, we're really the 365 00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:29,200 first group to be asking questions, like how can large 366 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,300 scale? Cultivation of algae produced 367 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:34,100 building materials. How can we leverage 368 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:38,800 photosynthetic organisms that are so fast in growing and 369 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,000 fixing carbon dioxide right into their biomass? 370 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,000 How can we use? That carbon negative process to 371 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,700 produce a material that is suitable for use for use in 372 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:54,100 construction. So that's why, you know, 373 00:24:54,900 --> 00:25:00,100 photosynthesis in general, especially rapid rapidly grown 374 00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:04,300 materials, leveraging, photosynthesis is really, really 375 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:10,700 key to the carbon capture and storage solution space in the 376 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:13,400 construction industry. And, you know, people don't 377 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,300 normally We go beyond thinking about trees growing in a forest, 378 00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,400 you know, trees are really slow growing. 379 00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:24,500 I'm I'm a firm believer that we cannot rely solely on Woody 380 00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:29,100 biomass grown in the forest. We have to turn to rapidly grown 381 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,900 photosynthetic organisms and plants like algae like 382 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:39,300 cyanobacteria like hemp straw grasses. 383 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:44,800 And if we allow that biomass to grow fix the Monoxide and if we 384 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,000 can encapsulate it, keep it encapsulated for long periods of 385 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,600 time. Well, I really do think that 386 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:56,600 that's the primary strategy by which, we can turn the built 387 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,700 environment into a carbon sink. Yeah, I love this. 388 00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:06,000 It's so intriguing. So there's a vision of Housing 389 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,800 and buildings that is in the near future which is sort of 390 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,800 like everyone has a nest in a ring and everything can be 391 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,700 controlled by your Your smartphone and your house is 392 00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:18,700 interactive and digital capacity, but then you've taken 393 00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:22,400 this about 10 steps further, you're talking about programming 394 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:29,200 new types of microscopic life, that builds and retains its own 395 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,600 integrity, and I have been designed for specific functions 396 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,000 such that everything has been. I don't know, you've altered the 397 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,900 shape of of life in a very controlled way for an entire 398 00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:45,300 building is that that is that what you're trying to do is that 399 00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:49,600 the goal Yeah, I think you know I think people people think of 400 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,200 buildings of the future is being super electrified and you know 401 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,300 having these interactive wallpapers that that sense your 402 00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:01,100 that sense that you're in the room and it's kind of like a, 403 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,100 you know, big touchscreen but you know, yeah. 404 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,400 I actually think that those could be bacterial cells that 405 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,900 are that are transmitting electrons to. 406 00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:13,400 And from each other, there are bacterial communities that do 407 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:18,000 this that are electrically conductive and And certainly 408 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,700 their their Myriad of organisms that that light up, you know, 409 00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:27,300 upon receiving some sort of stimulus. 410 00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:33,100 Whether that be pH or light or humidity or carbon dioxide 411 00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:36,700 they'll change colors. Like and for example like it, 412 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:40,100 you know like in that you see going on hikes in the Pacific 413 00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:44,300 Northwest, some species of lichen will change color if 414 00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:49,200 they're elevated levels of Of CO2 or other other toxic 415 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:54,900 chemicals and in the air. And, and so, you know, it's just 416 00:27:54,900 --> 00:27:56,700 a matter of engineering those systems. 417 00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:03,800 Those biological systems to be to exhibit those functionalities 418 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,000 in a very controlled, a very controlled way. 419 00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:09,100 The other thing I'll mention is that, you know, the DNA of 420 00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:13,100 organisms, you folks are kind of looking in at DNA as a way of 421 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,700 permanent storage instead of data centers. 422 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,700 He's, you know, we kind of think we need to keep building silicon 423 00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:23,600 chips over and over and over again, but we could actually 424 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,500 grow some organisms that that store a lot more information, 425 00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:32,000 right in our DNA strand. And those sequences, you know, 426 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,400 would be that that decoding mechanism, you know, to pull to 427 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,900 pull your old pictures out from out, from college and to look at 428 00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:43,700 them. So there's there's there's some 429 00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:46,700 really creative folks thinking about this. 430 00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:52,500 And yes, again, it's a little bit science, fiction, e, but but 431 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:56,700 I see I see the clear the clear links in the chain, so the Ivory 432 00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:00,300 Tower is it, is it that high? Yeah, I have two comments, one 433 00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:04,500 of which is kind of silly which is reminds me there's a dystopic 434 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:07,300 version of this. That's basically akakura when I 435 00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:09,500 have you seen that old Japanese film. 436 00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:13,500 I have it but I've had a few colleagues. 437 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,100 Okay. So I'm not alone in thinking 438 00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:17,300 that basically. Yeah, an organism that Absorbs 439 00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:20,900 everything and just grows and grows and grows out of control, 440 00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:25,400 but that's that's the silly one. And then I have a facil one, 441 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,800 which I will maintain. There's a distinction between 442 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:34,100 these two words that have used but like a cliche, 30. 443 00:29:34,100 --> 00:29:35,700 Something that I am. I've been bringing a lot of 444 00:29:35,708 --> 00:29:39,400 Kombucha lately. My my kombucha bills were just 445 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,800 too high and so the scoby is like the, the fungal matter that 446 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,700 grows on the top of a batch you reuse, those They only last I 447 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:52,800 think I've lived between 5 and 10 batches how do you make it? 448 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,600 So that your walls don't die have to be replaced. 449 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,400 Or how do you, how do you have a system that is continuous and 450 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,900 doesn't require intervention or do do all these systems? 451 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:04,000 Do you just have contractors in the future? 452 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,900 Who are biochemist, who come by? Yeah, I think the sky's the 453 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,600 limit with it with the imagination, you know what's 454 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,200 interesting? You bring up the point that 455 00:30:15,300 --> 00:30:18,700 eventually, you know, Your kombucha starter eventually 456 00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:21,100 dies. I usually get the question of 457 00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:25,100 well what happens when you know my house becomes a skyscraper 458 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,700 you know that it just keeps growing and growing and growing 459 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,100 and becomes you know kind of The Blob and takes over the world 460 00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:38,000 and and I go back to the exactly your last point the fundamental 461 00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:43,200 biochemistry. If we, if we understand the, the 462 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,700 limits of growth and the conditions of growth of certain 463 00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:49,000 Microorganisms that we can control it. 464 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,000 So for example, you know, we put food in the refrigerator, we put 465 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,300 yogurt in the refrigerator, it's in a lot, it's a living thing. 466 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,200 But we put it in the fridge because we want to keep the 467 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,300 bacterial metabolisms at Bay so that trigger of temperature, 468 00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:08,200 keeping it cold, doesn't allow the bacteria to keep growing and 469 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,900 even producing gas as a production and that's produced 470 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:15,600 is by breaking down the lactose in the milk. 471 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:20,800 So The same is true for the materials we work on in the lab. 472 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:27,800 We understand the right levels of humidity and temperature and 473 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,400 moisture that would trigger bacterial growth. 474 00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:35,300 And on the other end of the spectrum Spectrum trigger its 475 00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:39,900 dormancy or hibernation and you know in the in when we think 476 00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:45,000 about future applications, there could be microfluidics and 477 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,100 microenvironments. That trigger very localized 478 00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:54,300 activities of different bacteria in much the same way that we 479 00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:59,500 would wire a television. You have little to no LED light 480 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:03,500 bulbs, that must be wired every, we're providing just the right 481 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:07,300 nutrients and just the right conditions for the bacteria to 482 00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:11,000 be switched on, or off, depending on on what we would 483 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,600 like them to do fascinating. So I'm going to continue in the 484 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,100 similar cliche. Jane where I've also been making 485 00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:22,000 sauerkraut and kimchi, like I really, I really wish. 486 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,100 I could claim I started doing it before covid, but like everyone 487 00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:28,900 else. I got really into it, but a lot 488 00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,300 of this is supposed to be anaerobic and not exposed to 489 00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:33,900 oxygen. So how do you there must be 490 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:36,700 different types of organisms that are? 491 00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:40,300 Because I think when it's, when it is aerobic, there's a risk of 492 00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:44,500 bad mold becoming present, but that isn't really a risk with 493 00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:46,900 the types of microorganisms you're working, with know, No. 494 00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:53,000 Certainly, there always is, there's always some 495 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,100 contamination issues that we have to think about. 496 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,200 You know, I equate the materials that we work on to a lot like 497 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:03,100 you know to bring more food into the picture. 498 00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:09,200 I need a snack I think it's about snack time it's a lot like 499 00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:12,900 a sourdough starter culture. If you can think of it that way 500 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,100 where you know our material starter cultures are such that 501 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,200 we grew up a dense culture of bacteria. 502 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,300 We enabled those bacteria to glue, our sand particles 503 00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:30,200 together, by the minerals, and the polymers that they secrete. 504 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,800 But then we can control, we can stop the growth of those 505 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,600 bacteria. What we showed in a paper, a 506 00:33:37,608 --> 00:33:41,600 couple months ago is that if we make up what we call a parent 507 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,200 generation, it's like your sourdough starter culture. 508 00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:48,000 We can actually split a parent generation brick. 509 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,900 We can actually That brick into 2 and using the same starter 510 00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:55,600 culture that's already existing. In the brick, those two halves 511 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,400 will grow into two full bricks and we completed that process to 512 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,700 subsequent times. So we made eight full bricks out 513 00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:09,800 of one parent starter culture. For example it's just like how 514 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,900 sourdough keeps spawning new generations at an exponential 515 00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:15,100 scale. If you share it with your 516 00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:18,600 friends you know, exponential numbers. 517 00:34:18,699 --> 00:34:22,699 Of children but you know, to your point, it's really 518 00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:25,600 important for us since we are working with with aerobic 519 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,800 bacteria that we again control the conditions during 520 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,199 manufacturing and storage. We impart some antimicrobial 521 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:39,199 abilities to the to the materials. 522 00:34:39,699 --> 00:34:43,699 So that no other organisms can can cross contaminate. 523 00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:47,500 So it all goes back to that that microbiology and biochemistry 524 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,100 and understanding. Really the rules of the, of the 525 00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:51,600 game, John? Okay? 526 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,500 That makes sense. Well, since I have you here, 527 00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:59,400 could I ask you some questions about architecture and 528 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,500 Architectural trends? Yeah, absolutely. 529 00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:10,300 So how long do you think is this sort of like having you know, 530 00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:12,900 how to describe it? It's like obsession with open 531 00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:16,000 space and minimalism going to last, I sort of, I'm craving 532 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,600 like a return to the Arts and Crafts kind of kind of moment. 533 00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,600 Like where do you think what's happening next like, when are we 534 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,700 gonna get over this moment that we're in? 535 00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:26,300 Now what do you think we're going to go? 536 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,700 You know, I this this exact question crossed my mind 537 00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:35,900 yesterday when I was walking, when I was walking my dog 538 00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:41,000 because we, we have a house in Boulder and boulders. 539 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,200 Actually, you know, a relatively load low dense low-density 540 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,000 community. And I was thinking about Urban 541 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,000 centers and how over the last two to three decades, we have 542 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,100 been fighting for densification, densification densification, and 543 00:35:56,100 --> 00:36:01,000 in reality. The reality we're in now that 544 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,200 poses a lot of threats. And so I do think right now 545 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:13,500 they're there is some, there's a Confluence of different ideas of 546 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,900 wanting to make sure our cities are dense, wanting to give 547 00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:20,900 access to kind of, you know, open space and parks. 548 00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:24,800 And, and even again blurring these boundaries between between 549 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,900 nature and and what is What is healing, but I think a lot of 550 00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:31,500 this is going to be called into question. 551 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:33,500 I think I would have had a different answer for you. 552 00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:38,600 Six months ago, then what I do today because I think we're 553 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,200 going to be taking a more critical look at at office space 554 00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:47,300 and and densification. And, and you know what that, 555 00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:50,600 what that really means for cities of the future? 556 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,400 Yeah, one thing I've noticed too, is Seattle. 557 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,000 Okay. I live in Ballard. 558 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,300 That's Inori's offices and Ballard is a Scandinavian 559 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,300 historically, Scandinavian neighborhood, fishing 560 00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:06,200 neighborhood and you'll see apartment buildings that have 561 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,900 names that are clearly a Norwegian. 562 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:13,700 But the they're not made in a Pacific Northwest vernacular, 563 00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:17,000 they could be literally any apartment building from any big 564 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,800 city in the entire world. And so I know people want to get 565 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,600 back to using local materials. So you mentioned Katara and 566 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,800 cross laminated Timber and Using products that are closer to 567 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,400 home. Seattle. 568 00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:32,400 I would like to see a lot more wood buildings. 569 00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:38,200 I would like to see us get away from one-size-fits-all. 570 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,700 We all have the same house independent of which continent 571 00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:43,700 we live on. There are benefits to 572 00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:50,500 standardization but I think it's a bit soul-killing to There's 573 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:56,400 certainly there's a concept that I try to get across in virtually 574 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,100 every conversation. I have related to building 575 00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:02,400 materials and kind of the vernacular and that's really 576 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:09,300 embracing the surrounding rural communities as the localized 577 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,200 breadbasket. If you will for fibrous 578 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:19,200 materials that are low impact low carbon that that that need 579 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,400 to To be embraced by every every municipality. 580 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,400 So, you know, Seattle, for example. 581 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:29,700 Yes. What is very much in the DNA of 582 00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:33,300 of the region? But there are also again, you 583 00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:36,700 know, some farming communities and agricultural spaces that 584 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:43,900 have that have up for offer some some biomass that could be 585 00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:47,000 turned into high performance building materials. 586 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:55,400 And so I think you know, I do think It's interesting because 587 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,500 folks have traveled the world but extensively they've come 588 00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:03,700 into contact with different styles and different forms of 589 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,000 architecture, but when I really do think about cities of the 590 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,600 future, I really do think of them as as Regional a regional 591 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,100 Nexus, that that is much more of the place. 592 00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:19,200 And I think we're seeing that a little bit, a little bit. 593 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,300 Now, with with covid is I haven't, I haven't even Thought 594 00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:27,700 about live leaving the Front Range of Colorado. 595 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,900 And I'm really looking to this region. 596 00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:35,700 As really the extent of my of my of my reach in terms of 597 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:37,900 resources. And I think that that's just 598 00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:40,100 going to occur on a slightly larger scale. 599 00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:44,700 When City start to think about supply chain sustainability of 600 00:39:44,707 --> 00:39:50,400 those Supply chains and materials for construction and 601 00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:52,600 Architectural gems of the future. 602 00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:56,500 Will not be excluded from that. Well I hope you are right. 603 00:39:56,500 --> 00:40:01,300 At least it would make for a more interesting dog-walking 604 00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:06,800 experiences that you've chosen to live your life and the 605 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,100 profession that you selected for yourself. 606 00:40:09,500 --> 00:40:16,100 Clearly you think architecture and creating spaces is a key 607 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:18,400 part of our experience that is interacted with. 608 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,000 So regularly to be worth a lifetime of Labor. 609 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,100 Why do you think that is? I think a lot of people take 610 00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:28,300 architecture for granted and maybe don't notice it as much as 611 00:40:28,308 --> 00:40:31,100 they should. What do you think about that? 612 00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:34,700 How could they learn more or dive into this in Greater detail 613 00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:38,000 both as someone who may at some point like to own a home but 614 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,700 also as someone who wants to nerd out on this science, like 615 00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:48,700 we're talking about, follow me on Twitter, I'm just kidding, I 616 00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:51,100 will link to your Twitter, you don't do not worry. 617 00:40:53,700 --> 00:41:02,000 My social media presence is a little Bleak, but so, and let's 618 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,800 see. So your question is, how can 619 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:09,700 people learn, learn a little bit more about About this space is 620 00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:11,900 that it, it was your there's a big garbled. 621 00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:14,700 Question your right to double-check. 622 00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:19,500 But yeah, I guess, what's a good place for someone who wanted to? 623 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:24,200 I mean, part of it is I I named dropped a whole taxonomy of 624 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,800 different American housing Styles, and we talked a lot 625 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,500 about that. Where is a good place to start 626 00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:33,600 wrapping your head around, how people think about spaces and 627 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,900 then I guess also, where would you direct them for some of 628 00:41:35,908 --> 00:41:38,300 these Frontiers that you're working on and By the way, we 629 00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:40,200 barely covered any of the stuff that you do. 630 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,600 So let's just have you back on again soon. 631 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,300 So, over the last five to ten years, I really do think the 632 00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:51,100 construction industry has recognized at least in North 633 00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:54,700 America. A critical need to understand 634 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:03,600 and and share resources around low, carbon low, carbon 635 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:09,600 construction, and what I really do is that Kate's immonen and 636 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,500 her founding of the carbon leadership Forum has really 637 00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:17,500 served as the flagship Organization for professionals 638 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:24,800 to see examples and to get information, see examples of 639 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,600 successes and even some some challenges and even failures in 640 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,100 the in the in the building industry and really to work 641 00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:38,300 together toward a low carbon and carbon negative future in In in 642 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:42,100 construction. So I would I would you know urge 643 00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:45,500 folks to First follow follow my work. 644 00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:48,900 So you know, my work has been featured in The New York Times. 645 00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:54,300 I'm on NPR and we do have a website where we do publish a 646 00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:58,700 lot of our work, but certainly key into the carbon leadership 647 00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:01,000 Forum. If you're interested in learning 648 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,000 more about sustainable architecture, especially as it 649 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,700 as it pertains to low carbon. Low carbon construction. 650 00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:11,300 Great. Well, thank you so much for 651 00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:15,600 being here Will Yeah, thank you for having me. 652 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,300 It's been, it's not great. It's a lot of fun. 653 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:18,900 Well, thank you so much for listening. 654 00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:21,500 If you like the show, please share it with a friend. 655 00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:24,800 Give us a great rating and review on Apple podcasts. 656 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,500 ITunes. Stitcher, thank you so much for 657 00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:29,400 listening. I hope you enjoyed and have a 658 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:30,000 lovely day.