1 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:06,000 You're listening to the reversing climate change 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,100 podcasts by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,700 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:13,700 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,500 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 6 00:00:18,500 --> 00:00:20,200 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon, I'm a 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,000 co-founder of nori which is a carbon removal Marketplace in 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,300 Seattle. Today, I have with me Daniel 9 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:29,500 becquer longtime friend and collaborator of mine from my 10 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:31,700 more Writing days, he's a novelist. 11 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:35,200 He's written books, like Abraham Lionel Lancet in the right Vibe. 12 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,600 You also do a lot of literature education on YouTube. 13 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,000 Tick-Tock Instagram, you can find on YouTube. 14 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,400 Off-the-wall novels in Tick-Tock and Instagram as Daniel backer 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,200 author. Hey, Daniel. 16 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,800 Actually I don't, Daniel did, I don't ever ever, they have ever 17 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,100 called you Daniel my entire life. 18 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:53,000 Hi, Danny. Hi, I transitioned to Daniel and 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,700 then back to Danny. So either, I what happened is I 20 00:00:56,708 --> 00:01:00,900 was like to maybe too boyish and you want to go pro or So that 21 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:03,900 was on my mind but I had a boss named Danny and he made it 22 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:07,800 perfectly clear that he was the Danny and the room and so I went 23 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,600 by Daniel and my parents had kind of called me Daniel to 24 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:12,400 growing up so it wasn't completely absurd. 25 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,900 But then realizing that was the reason I started going by Daniel 26 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:17,600 I was like oh that is actually pretty silly. 27 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,300 I'm just going to be Danny now. So you have a bossy like 28 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:23,900 reassigned your name. Actually, he served as the 29 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:28,700 inspiration for the character Damien in my novel and I know he 30 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:31,100 will never listen to Ooh, this podcast episode. 31 00:01:31,100 --> 00:01:32,400 So I feel comfortable saying that. 32 00:01:32,900 --> 00:01:37,600 Wow, Damien also just has such context to it as well as a name. 33 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,600 I just assumed someone named. That is bad from the start. 34 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,200 Should I even think that? I mean there's the satanic thing 35 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,100 going on from set. The Almond is that right? 36 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,000 Who's the guy wrote Steppenwolf? Yes, Herman has. 37 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:51,600 Yeah. It's like there's a there's a 38 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,000 Damien I guess his father Damian who worked in Hawaii with 39 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,900 Leprosy, he was good. Something that's a pretty noble 40 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:01,200 thing that counteracts The satanic implications. 41 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,500 I think there's a you associate with Satanism has a weird 42 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:07,900 opening to the show 100%. I'm glad we go right into it 43 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:08,600 though. We wasted. 44 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,500 No time. Yeah, my priorities. 45 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:14,400 What's the point of this show Danny? 46 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,700 And I have been talking about how to do this for a long time. 47 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:19,800 We're both passionate about literature, I've learned a lot 48 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,000 from Danny. His novels are super fun and 49 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:23,700 play with ideas and really interesting ways. 50 00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:28,400 Of course, we would be friends. And as much as I like more High 51 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:30,600 literary fiction and your someone, I associate very 52 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,800 strongly with sort of contemporary fiction, especially 53 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,500 like the postmodern fiction of the second half of the 20th 54 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:39,900 century. I also like genre fiction bad 55 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:43,700 books, bad books, where there are innumerable sequels, books 56 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:46,500 that are meant to titillate. You might know Jean Reflection 57 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:50,900 from things like detective, stories are quite popular for 58 00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:54,600 this, where there's a whole industry around writing zombie 59 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,400 books, and zombie books were there, you know, 10, 15 20, 60 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,600 books in a row somewhere. Last apocalyptic fiction prepper 61 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,900 fiction which are like plays into fantasies about the end of 62 00:03:04,900 --> 00:03:06,300 the world. Whether there's gonna be an 63 00:03:06,308 --> 00:03:10,000 electromagnetic pulse that disrupts all electrical motors 64 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,000 and what that looks like obviously erotica is super 65 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,500 popular and super prolific, and I imagine quite profitable as 66 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:19,300 well, Danny missed opportunity there unless I have a pen name. 67 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:22,000 I don't know about romance mystery. 68 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,200 These are like quite Tropi genres, and the way that I want 69 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,900 to frame this show, is that there's a lot of sci-fi that is 70 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:31,100 high literary fiction. I think things like the parable 71 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:34,300 of the talents, parable of the sower Kim Stanley, Robinson's 72 00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:37,000 Ministry for the future. Perhaps the most like high 73 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,500 literary version here, choose the road by Cormac McCarthy. 74 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,600 Some Cormac McCarthy is so impenetrably. 75 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,900 Difficult to read us often closer to something like 76 00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:46,900 Melville. I'm like, okay, I need to 77 00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:49,000 modernist close reading techniques to just make it 78 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,200 through this at all. I'm still not getting all the 79 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,700 meeting and all the illusion that is happening here. 80 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,300 So I try to talk about how long do I need to? 81 00:03:56,300 --> 00:03:58,500 Wait for there to be climate fiction. 82 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:02,300 That is genre. In bad in serialized in such a 83 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:04,600 way. And is that how, you know that 84 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,600 climate change is saying that people actually care about? 85 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:11,600 Well I think that if you're realizing that there's a dearth 86 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,600 of that sort of thing in the marketplace than the name on 87 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,899 that novel would probably be Ross Canyon. 88 00:04:16,899 --> 00:04:20,500 So there's an opportunity here, there's a vacuum that you could 89 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:25,400 definitely fill. I think a big issue with a lot 90 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,200 of serious literature is that they shook so many conventions 91 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,200 of what makes a story work that I find myself sometimes reading 92 00:04:32,300 --> 00:04:35,500 more difficult books and being like, why is this 700 pages and 93 00:04:35,508 --> 00:04:38,300 not to because when you have a plot, Not. 94 00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:41,500 I think it creates a metric and plots aren't for everybody. 95 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:43,400 You don't have to like a plot but there's something nice about 96 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,500 a plot that you're like, oh, okay, it feels done now or it 97 00:04:46,500 --> 00:04:48,400 feels like at the middle part or the beginning. 98 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,900 Like the I think the conventions are very useful and so I think 99 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:54,000 that's something that kind of Drew me to postmodern fiction, 100 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,900 is that they're very intentionally in dialogue with 101 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,700 more traditional narratives. And so even if they're trying to 102 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:05,100 subvert it, you often do get some sort of an appeal to a 103 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:07,600 traditional plot even if they are trying to twist it into a 104 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:08,900 pretzel. As they're going. 105 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,700 So that has been pretty much the thing that's got me interested 106 00:05:12,700 --> 00:05:14,500 in it. Because as literary is the 107 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:17,200 stuff, is I like to read. I like something that does 108 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,400 entertain me, you know, I like to indulge in the Big Ideas and 109 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,800 important things about being humid, but part of that is 110 00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:29,100 entertainment, and have only Park, even if some important 111 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:31,200 people think that were like finished with the idea of a 112 00:05:31,207 --> 00:05:33,000 story as something that's meaningful to humans. 113 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,200 So I don't know if that answers your question, but I think 114 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,700 you're blind some listeners Minds right now that the idea of 115 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:41,400 play Lot might be old hat at this point, but I think in some 116 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,300 ways I think act structure is programmed into our brains for 117 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:48,000 what to expect in a story. To get the fuel fully paid off 118 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,100 invalidated for investing the time in it. 119 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,200 And I mean, I know you're big Thomas pynchon fan and you have 120 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,700 you read the crying of lot 49 ahead of this time before that, 121 00:05:56,700 --> 00:05:59,700 I'd only ever seen inherent Vice, which cracked me up to. 122 00:05:59,700 --> 00:06:02,400 I thought I'd movie was brilliantly funny because I 123 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,400 started watching it. I was like, what do people to 124 00:06:04,407 --> 00:06:05,900 this movie's complicated? I don't get it. 125 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:07,900 Sort of a straightforward detective story. 126 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:11,500 He's going, he's following leads then like 40 minutes into it. 127 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:15,800 I was like, oh my God. What is even is there a plot I 128 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,100 remember? Did you ever read the 129 00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:20,700 illuminatus books? The Robert Anton Wilson series 130 00:06:20,900 --> 00:06:23,500 earlier but I have not Thomas pynchon is like the same. 131 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:27,000 I feel like and also I think they're both l.a. people I think 132 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,000 dish or at least their stuff is often in LA. 133 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,100 But in The Illuminati's books it's like all conspiracies are 134 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:36,600 simultaneously true. Even contradictory ones so 135 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,700 you'll have things we like I thought this wasn't all of these 136 00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:42,000 things coexist at the same time and it's not really about the 137 00:06:42,008 --> 00:06:44,200 plot. It's almost just about being in 138 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,000 that place in the hilarity of story and do stories matter. 139 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:50,100 I don't think I'm smart enough to understand what is trying to 140 00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:53,100 be said by that pyncheons like this too, right? 141 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:57,100 What do you need to say this? So I think the criticism of a 142 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:00,300 lot of this experimental stuff is true in a lot of cases, is 143 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:04,200 that it can be just navel-gazing it can just be an author trying 144 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,500 to show off, how experimental and stranger they can be, but I 145 00:07:07,500 --> 00:07:10,600 think, The standouts of postmodern fiction and 146 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,300 experimental fiction. Do a great job of subverting 147 00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:18,400 stories and ideas in a way that feels very meaningful to 148 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,800 people's lives. And so for example like I'm 149 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,700 rereading V by Thomas pynchon right now and one of the main 150 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:28,900 themes in it is that myths are the things that guide people's 151 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:31,600 decision making especially people in power is that they 152 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,100 will commonly evoke a myth in order to justify certain 153 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,400 actions. Certain atrocities And 154 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,500 specifically, like a tenant of fascism is evoking a Mythic 155 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:44,800 past, so that's like pretty important putting that in there. 156 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,800 But then this kind of goes without saying, but these are 157 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,100 myths, these are not true, they're not historical 158 00:07:49,100 --> 00:07:51,700 documents. There are stories that people 159 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:55,200 often tell the unreliable narrator is a popular thing in 160 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,100 many different literary forms. But especially in postmodern 161 00:07:58,100 --> 00:08:02,200 fiction when they're trying to engage history and storytelling 162 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,800 and myths. They blur all of those things 163 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,000 together. So that they're saying that. 164 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,600 Like when we talk about the past we're telling us Story and we're 165 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,300 telling a myth but it's more complicated than just that 166 00:08:12,300 --> 00:08:15,200 because they're also saying that this is what makes us human. 167 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:19,400 And so one of the main themes of V is that myths are made up and 168 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,400 they justify atrocities, but to get rid of them makes us as 169 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,700 inanimate as the material objects in the room around you. 170 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,200 And so his thesis at the end of this is kind of like keep cool 171 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:35,299 but care that you on some sense, sort of have to detach yourself 172 00:08:35,299 --> 00:08:38,900 from the historical train tracks that you're on because they are 173 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:41,700 fraudulent. But at the same time you do need 174 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:46,800 some utilitarian myths, just to have a soul and to have emotions 175 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,300 and have a relationships with other people which people have 176 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:52,600 any association with post-modernism at this point. 177 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,000 Depending on your political background. 178 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,200 You might have set associated with criticism from people like 179 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,300 Jordan Peterson who are saying saying post-modernism is just 180 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:03,600 about the death of Truth and that there's there's sort of at 181 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,200 least two a cultural dead end of nihilism and despair and what 182 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,200 you've just said Struck me, as none of those things. 183 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:12,600 Where do you think that gets twisted along the way? 184 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,800 Or I mean, yeah, we can start there. 185 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,900 I think truth be told the criticisms that people like 186 00:09:17,900 --> 00:09:22,500 Jordan Pederson have I think are valid ish, but I don't think he 187 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:25,600 gives a very charitable interpretation of it, because 188 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,800 post-modernism is a lot of different things and not a lot 189 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,200 of post modern. Thinkers necessarily agree with 190 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,400 each other on everything. And so it's almost like when you 191 00:09:34,408 --> 00:09:37,100 hear someone criticize something without demonstrating their 192 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:39,800 familiarity with It you're kind of like a you may be right? 193 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,300 But like that's actually hours to criticize because it's 194 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:47,300 important to us, but I mean, post-modernism can refer to an 195 00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:51,600 Era to a sensibility to anesthetic, sort of the cop-out 196 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,400 that I give myself sometimes is that I really try to ground the 197 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,400 conversation in art because I noticed that when people are not 198 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,800 familiar with post-modernism, the first thing they try to do 199 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,900 is turn it on itself is that they're already going meta 200 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:07,100 before they've even kind of mastered the fundamentals, which 201 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:09,900 is just a method of Questioning its questioning, some 202 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:12,400 fundamental assumptions asking the question. 203 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:15,600 What about the way we're asking? The question is determining the 204 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,400 sort of answers that are coming up, you know? 205 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,700 And I think maybe the super charitable interpretation of 206 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:24,700 post-modernism is that it's not supposed to be a comprehensive 207 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:27,200 worldview. It's a tool in your toolbox. 208 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,300 So and like a classic example is like what about the way that we 209 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:36,100 divide men and women influences the answers that we come to when 210 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:39,600 we ask questions about what is a man What is a woman and it 211 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,400 doesn't necessarily come up with conclusions, but it's just 212 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,500 asking you to say, hey, let's, let's take a look at our 213 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:48,300 categories for a second. What about the way that we've 214 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:51,000 created these categories, might influence the conclusions that 215 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:56,100 we reach interesting and if you take for granted the stuff you 216 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,600 said about myth as pretty core to post-modernism, you might say 217 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,900 the idea of what makes a man, what makes a woman or myths that 218 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:05,300 different cultures have stories that they tell ourselves that 219 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:07,800 these are not just inherently fixed immutable. 220 00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:09,600 Characteristics. In fact, there's a lot of 221 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,900 culture that's tied up in here. And that how we engage with 222 00:11:12,900 --> 00:11:16,100 those myths changes, the answers that we might receive from them. 223 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:17,700 Exactly. Yeah. 224 00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:21,300 So I think following that thread like one of the classic ones is 225 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:24,600 that men are traditionally associated with dominance. 226 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,800 And women are traditionally associated with submission and 227 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,500 so they're basically just asking like, how do we drag that into 228 00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:34,400 conversations, where it doesn't belong. 229 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,400 And so, like I get people's frustration with it because if 230 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,200 you are Are used to just kind of tracking a traditional logical 231 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,600 thread and you hear that like oh Derrida said logic is not 232 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,200 necessarily always great. Like I get why Jordan Peterson 233 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,800 freaks out about that because he's built his life and career 234 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,200 on this notion of objectivity which I'm you know highly 235 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,700 critical of on my Tick Tock in particular because I think often 236 00:11:57,700 --> 00:12:00,900 people will use the word objective just as a rhetorical 237 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:07,000 strategy and even though I think we can come to some objective 238 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,500 observations about World. I like to use the word objective 239 00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:12,900 ish is that at the end of the day, were always going to be 240 00:12:12,908 --> 00:12:15,700 observing the world through the holes and our face and 241 00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:18,300 experiencing things in a mitigated way. 242 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:21,900 And so like even though I understand why people think it's 243 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:25,100 very nihilistic, I don't think they've always actually even 244 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:28,200 read the thinkers that are associated with these ideas and 245 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,500 so almost talking out of two sides of my mouth, people who 246 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:34,300 are familiar with post-modernism sometimes get frustrated that it 247 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:38,200 doesn't have enough conclusive information within it but Again, 248 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,900 that's that's kind of why I like to put it mostly within an 249 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:43,800 artistic framework because most people don't read fiction and be 250 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,200 like, wait a minute, did this really happen? 251 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,700 Like there's a suspension of disbelief and I think that's 252 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:52,200 where post-modernism is most interesting, but I find arguing 253 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,900 about post-modernism is a total dead end and trying to make a 254 00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:59,900 postmodern criticism of post-modernism is a total waste 255 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:03,300 of time, even if it's kind of fun, you know, you don't really 256 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:05,600 give what is the do this podcast now, man? 257 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:09,900 Because I got more time to fill. Well, I mean that's the thing. 258 00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:14,900 I guess it's not a waste of time, but I just find that. 259 00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:19,000 Usually again, the criticism that post-modernism undoes 260 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,000 itself is usually made by people like as they're learning about 261 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,700 it is that they're like it questions fundamental 262 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:26,400 assumptions. But what about the fundamental 263 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,900 assumptions of post-modernism? It's like, well yeah, but one of 264 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:33,400 their tenants is that they think that discourse is something 265 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,000 where you organize the parameters. 266 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,100 And so like they're organizing the parameters and Just for 267 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:40,200 utilitarian sake. They're like well, let's like 268 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,900 maybe not undo the discourse before, we know what it is, but 269 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:47,400 I think there's also a reason that post-modernism as an era is 270 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,000 considered kind of over in a lot of ways and like, meta, 271 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,500 modernism is, I think more in Vogue, in critical circles 272 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:59,400 because it sort of takes the critical incredulity of 273 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,600 post-modernism. But then is also like, okay, but 274 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,300 like we need a truth. We need objects. 275 00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:08,200 And so like within that realm, there's speculative Some an 276 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,500 object-oriented ontology and they kind of take the Best of 277 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:13,100 Both Worlds. Is that they're like, we have 278 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:16,600 objects, both material objects that are like, in the room with 279 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,100 us. But also philosophical objects 280 00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:22,200 of of conception, like within your mind and even though 281 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,900 they're like real ish, there's a part of them that's always a 282 00:14:24,908 --> 00:14:28,000 little bit removed from us so we can't know them completely, but 283 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,800 we can sort of build games with them in a way that works for us. 284 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,800 I'm going to share with you in something that I've used to 285 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,300 Anchor by thinking for a long time. 286 00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:39,800 It was this Insight was one of the main reasons that I figured 287 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,700 out that philosophy, grad school was not the right fit for me and 288 00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:45,600 I've always associated with post-modernism but it sounds 289 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,000 closer to meta. Modernism frankly where I read 290 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,600 Nietzsche's on truth and lies in a non moral sense. 291 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,900 Have you ever read that? Well, I thought I'd love to 292 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:55,500 hear. It's a classic people. 293 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:57,500 Consider it. One of the like, like, Proto 294 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:00,600 taxed of post-modernism, where he talks about how every 295 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,800 category, every concept is a lie. 296 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,400 Everything is truly unique. Yet we are forced by how Verse 297 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,800 and numerous the objects in the world are to make sense of them 298 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,500 by grouping them. And every grouping is inherently 299 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,500 unjust, because everything is truly unique. 300 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:19,500 Yet, if you fail to group them in any meaningful way, you you 301 00:15:19,508 --> 00:15:22,800 lose your mind because you cannot categorize. 302 00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:26,200 And anyway, it's just undifferentiated mass and you 303 00:15:26,208 --> 00:15:30,600 will drown your mind will drown. And in some ways that has made 304 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:34,100 like kind of like a more boring King of the Hill, Hank Hill, 305 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:37,100 kind of figure in my life. As we discussed, I'm kind of 306 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:39,000 like conventional. Oil in my life, where I used to 307 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,300 be a little bit more radical and interest interesting and taking 308 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,000 The Road Less Traveled. And, in some ways this 309 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,500 postmodern or even met a modern inside has caused me to respect 310 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:50,300 tradition a little bit more saying. 311 00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:53,500 Okay, this is the product of thousands or hundreds of years 312 00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:58,000 of evolutionary insight for what makes stable-ish light, that is 313 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,200 worth living. I'm more willing to trust a 314 00:16:00,208 --> 00:16:03,300 given postmodern the tendency to philosophize with a hammer to 315 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:07,000 use another neat trick phrase that post-modernism gets called 316 00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:08,700 actually in. We've made me like more 317 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:11,200 dispositional. He personally conservative 318 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:13,800 wanting a more stable, less artsy. 319 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,400 Anything goes kind of life. Is that might of modernism? 320 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,900 That is a fascinating question. The short answer is, I don't 321 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:25,100 know, but I do know that, you know, critics of post-modernism. 322 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,800 I think sometimes do gain that people, people notice it, like 323 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,500 Jordan Pederson and David Foster Wallace both who criticize 324 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:34,500 post-modernism, albeit in completely different ways, very 325 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:36,200 different ways, but yeah. Yeah. 326 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,400 And like, I definitely like David Foster Wallace's criticism 327 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,200 of it more because all of his work is postmodern bike as much 328 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,800 as he was trying to advance it. I think categorically, it's 329 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,000 post-modernism. I Wouldn't Die on that Hill. 330 00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:51,100 I could hear an argument that it was otherwise, but but both 331 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:54,400 David Foster Wallace and Jordan Pederson during Peterson more. 332 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,100 So get accused of being conservative and of course, the 333 00:16:57,100 --> 00:16:59,800 cop forger and Peterson is no, I'm a classical liberal, it's 334 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,000 just everything I say is conservative, but a little bit 335 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,700 more of a digression that being said, I find that Buddhism and 336 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:11,200 Text in Buddhist philosophy, tend to access some of what I 337 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,099 consider valuable about post-modernism but in a more 338 00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:19,000 accessible and experiential way. And so sometimes the concept of 339 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,099 Dharma is interpreted as attachment to certain truths. 340 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:26,700 And so it's not necessarily that we're playing the game of what 341 00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:30,300 is true and what is false but it's like what Notions of 342 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:32,900 solidity? Are you projecting onto the 343 00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:36,900 narratives that you have and in what ways are you identifying? 344 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:41,000 With truths instead of just evaluating if they're true or 345 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,400 false. Because one of the biggest 346 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,100 criticisms that I have against like this notion of objectivity 347 00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:48,200 is that it's just a lie, is that people are like I'm being 348 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,200 objective and my emotions and my desires are not influencing the 349 00:17:52,208 --> 00:17:55,300 data that I'm processing. And then again, just should on 350 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:57,200 Jordan Peterson. One more time, is that like, the 351 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,100 Venom? Which he has begun to kind of an 352 00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:02,500 act to the second part of his career. 353 00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:05,600 I think demonstrates or of an attachment to certain ideas that 354 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,100 he has, then any kind And of, you know, disinterested just 355 00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:13,600 stating the facts. So yeah, all of that is to say 356 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:19,900 that like I think that you know, people do need stability and 357 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:23,900 maybe where conservatism goes wrong as saying that everyone 358 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:27,000 should have the same exact kind of solidity that I have or the 359 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,100 same kind of stability that I have as an individual. 360 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,700 I don't think those are necessarily bad things to want 361 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,600 but when we attach ourselves to those truths and say this as the 362 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,800 Divine truth Or the objective truth. 363 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,500 That's where I'm kind of like this. 364 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:44,300 Just sounds like we're using our desires and opinions to 365 00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:46,400 rationalize the data that we're processing. 366 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,700 Hmm. What do you make of the presence 367 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:53,200 of red herrings and pinch and that almost feel laid to 368 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,800 mislead? Like there will be people named 369 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,200 silly. Think what was the example that 370 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,300 most crack me up? There's a couple, was it a 371 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:01,600 memory boys? Oh, yeah. 372 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,300 Kevin gets Cohen is like a very, very funny combination. 373 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:06,400 There's like a bunch of things like that. 374 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,400 We're is it meant Say something, is it? 375 00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:12,500 Because those words are claimed by cultures, right? 376 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,800 They have meanings that precede your reading of the book, and 377 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,900 it's meant to play with that, but I can't tell if it's playing 378 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:22,900 with it in a meaningful way or if it's just meaningless word 379 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:25,600 play. And is that is that 380 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,200 post-modernism? See, that's the kind of question 381 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,800 you end up asking and the then you become the guy who says, I 382 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,600 don't like modern art, I find Modern Art to be distasteful, 383 00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:34,700 and that's not really. That fun of a place to be in by 384 00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:35,800 also, don't know what it's doing. 385 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:39,600 Yeah, that's that's the thing. It for any one of Pensions names 386 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,100 that he uses it, I think is a coin toss that like this one 387 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:45,600 could mean something. This could just be a silly joke 388 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,900 of his because he is a very Whimsical writer and is 389 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:52,000 characterized as being very difficult and people don't I 390 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,400 think push through that difficulty to realize how 391 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:59,300 cartoonish and absurd it is. So yeah I mean for anyone named 392 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:03,000 it's very difficult to tell but the more I have read pension in 393 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,300 particular but also just other post modern stuff there. 394 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,900 Often is a Thread, that isn't always easily grasped on the 395 00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:11,600 first read through, and that's a huge barrier to entry, I 396 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,700 completely understand. But when I first read this kind 397 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:19,000 of stuff I would finish these books and just be like, it was 398 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,400 cool. There were memorable moments. 399 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,300 I have no idea what it is, but the more that I have read them 400 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,900 crying of lot 49. For example, I think has a very 401 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:29,800 clear thesis that doesn't mean that every phenomenon in. 402 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,200 The book is easy to place within that he sits but yeah, on 403 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,700 subsequent readings. I think that there are 404 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:38,300 definitely An argument that he's trying to make. 405 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,100 But again, that argument is criticizing a traditional way of 406 00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:45,100 constructing truth. And so the yield of this thesis 407 00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:49,500 or the big take away from the book is kind of slippery and not 408 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:54,600 always easy to pin down, but it's there, you know, your 409 00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:58,000 videos on the book are really good and taught me a lot and 410 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,600 also maybe appreciate the book a lot more because I watched over 411 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,700 me, I enjoy humor. There's plenty in the book to 412 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,100 laugh about your like, this is absurd. 413 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,300 Sir, does even make sense these this world is being constructed 414 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:13,500 in front of me is just hot nonsense and it has a realistic 415 00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:16,200 comedy to it. As the same thing I mentioned 416 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,400 with inherent Vice to your like, does this mean anything? 417 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,400 Is it signals that noise who even cares? 418 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,100 The ride is fun and the same way to I also with capers are often 419 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:26,900 like that. Did you watch on? 420 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:28,800 Sorry? I have so many thoughts racing 421 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,000 through my head. This did you watch the Paramount 422 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,800 Plus show about the making of The Godfather, the offer? 423 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:35,800 No. My dad was just telling me about 424 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,500 this. I I know that it exists but I 425 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,500 haven't seen it if you like the Golden Age of Hollywood and Bob 426 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,800 Evans and that whole shtick it's good but Bob Evans is trying to 427 00:21:44,808 --> 00:21:47,400 get Chinatown produced near the second half of the show. 428 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,600 And Chinatown I've seen a bunch of times, I have no idea how it 429 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,300 works. I'm like so there you slept with 430 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:59,400 the twin and then who the money goes to who's getting paid off 431 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,600 here and in the offer they actually don't know what 432 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,100 Chinatown is about, and no one can really explain it and it's 433 00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:07,400 sort of a running gag. These, I picked up on it and 434 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,500 made me feel less dumb for never really understanding Chinatown. 435 00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:13,500 And whenever I read or like brick the Joseph Gordon-Levitt, 436 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,500 the tiger of high school today. I'm like what even Big Lebowski? 437 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:19,600 I'm like, what he threw out a ringer for a ringer and there's 438 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,400 a tow and like, who got paid? And what woohoo do the Germans 439 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,400 even think they're doing in the thing is none of it matters 440 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,200 because it's all world-building. Just being in this place and 441 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,400 it's like a set of feelings and that's all that I'm left with 442 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,400 which is maybe a superficial read but I had that really 443 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,300 strongly here, teach me more about What is actually happening 444 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:39,500 in this book and maybe introduce it for people listening. 445 00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:42,500 I mean, yeah. Nora is a perfect Touchstone for 446 00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:46,500 this because it achieves a lot of what postmodern word does, 447 00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:49,400 but obviously in a simpler more straightforward way, but you're 448 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,100 exactly right. Like, if you watch Chinatown or 449 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:54,700 The Big Lebowski, I think part of the intentional effect of 450 00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:56,900 those movies is to, disorient you. 451 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:01,700 I've seen The Big Lebowski probably 15 times and I could 452 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:04,700 not accurately tell you what the problem is. 453 00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:06,000 Thank God, this is such a relief. 454 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,800 Thought this is just me. Everyone else is watching his 455 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,700 loving this movie for decades and did none of them. 456 00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:12,700 Get it either sounds like. Yeah. 457 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,800 I think the Big Lebowski is a perfect Touchstone for it to 458 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,700 because the dude for all of his admirable qualities without 459 00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:23,500 being too, judgmental is dumb. Like he is not a bright guy and 460 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,600 he does not solve the plot like a Sherlock Holmes type who's you 461 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,500 know relying on his just unique sharp intuition. 462 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,300 The Big Lebowski advances, the plot kind of in spite of the 463 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:38,300 main character. I think that that is, you know, 464 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:41,400 what's kind of fun about that, but then what is, what's cool is 465 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,300 that, you know, pynchon was a big fan of dime, novels and 466 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:48,400 genre fiction, and detective, and spy fiction in particular. 467 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,200 And so, I think that's what gives his books. 468 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,500 So much fun at least from my perspective is that they're kind 469 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:57,400 of like a rump and a play on this traditional genre. 470 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,800 And so, with the crying of lot 49, you have a housewife who is 471 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,600 substituted for the smooth-talking. 472 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,000 Detective, who relies on his into, Tuition and wit. 473 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,300 And I think that at the beginning of the book, there's 474 00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:13,800 like a very clear thesis statement about at a pub Moss, 475 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,600 as a character allows her to access the deeper truths that a 476 00:24:17,608 --> 00:24:20,600 detective would traditionally suss out with a more 477 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,900 conventional way of assessing the truth and that it's the fact 478 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:27,500 that she's able to empathize with other people and see their 479 00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:29,900 pain. And he beautifully did puts this 480 00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:33,100 into an image with her tears. And that's one of the reasons 481 00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:36,000 it's called The Crying of lot 49 is that she has a lens of tea. 482 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,800 Is that are always filling her eyes that seemingly distort, the 483 00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:45,200 information that's going through them and she relies on this 484 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,300 instead of a logical thread tracking suspects, this that or 485 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:51,900 the other. And if I remember correctly, the 486 00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:54,500 crying of lot 49 ends on a very ambiguous. 487 00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:59,200 Note you get to, like, the crying of lot 49, but you don't 488 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:04,500 actually get to see the scene of them at the auction of whatever 489 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:07,700 lot 49 is supposed to. B, I might, I think it's 490 00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:08,500 ambiguous. Yeah, yeah. 491 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:12,200 And one of the comments that I make in the video is that her 492 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,500 last character action is that, she has to sit back and await 493 00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:18,800 the crying of lot 49 in her own story. 494 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,000 And I think I could be reading too deep into this, but I think 495 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,900 that this is a comment on her marginalization in a 496 00:25:24,908 --> 00:25:29,200 male-dominated world. And I think that it's kind of a 497 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,100 bittersweet ending is that she gets to be our protagonist and 498 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:35,200 she gets to in some ways unravel this big conspiracy. 499 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,100 But then at the And in her own story, she kind of has to sit 500 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:42,300 back and watch the men sell property in front of her and 501 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:45,200 suss out this inheritance that was really supposed to be for 502 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,600 her and I mean, we can, we can explode this conversation in two 503 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,100 different Notions of the Oedipus Complex in ways, that that's 504 00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,200 instantiated and symbols within Society. 505 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,100 But I think that more than anything. 506 00:25:57,100 --> 00:26:00,400 It's it is a play on the detective genre and a critique 507 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,900 of scientific rationalism and traditional ways of constructing 508 00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:06,900 meaning, beautiful thoughts. It's also possible Well that I 509 00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:12,500 mean the Oedipus complex both in pop culture and also in literary 510 00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:18,100 criticism is extremely old now thousands of years old and so 511 00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:21,900 just just naming someone oedipa already, could be a red herring 512 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,700 or like, a misleading thing because there's so much meeting 513 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:28,000 already tied up in it. That's the most frustrating part 514 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,800 of reading pynchon is that like a special with a short book like 515 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,300 that, you're like, oh, I'm going to Breeze through this in an 516 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:35,600 afternoon and then like in the first line her name is oedipa 517 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,000 moss. And you're like, okay I gotta 518 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,400 hit Wikipedia for a second. Like I've got a I've got to 519 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,700 unpack this already and like a single paragraph will send you 520 00:26:41,708 --> 00:26:43,500 on a little little journey like that. 521 00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:48,600 I wish there was more play with genre and climate fiction 522 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,900 because today it hasn't been in the same kind of playfulness 523 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:57,200 that I long to see. Like, for instance, when my SNL 524 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,600 sketches ever. And I've never been able to find 525 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,200 a, because NBC is so stingy about what they allow to be put 526 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600 onto YouTube. But there's a Kelsey Grammer 527 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,900 sketch when he was hosting and he was a detective and is one of 528 00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:13,200 those like you knock on the door and everything they say, is some 529 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,600 sort of metaphor of it. The only metaphorical illusion 530 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,500 that he has is Burrito related to be. 531 00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:24,600 Like she was, she walked into my office, like, a warm Burrito on 532 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,700 a cold Chicago night and it's like, Everything like every 533 00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,400 single thing that he has his burrito related. 534 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:32,900 I won't get is one of the sketches that barely made the 535 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:34,300 show. You could tell it was like the 536 00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:37,100 last 10 minutes and Lorne, Michaels is like, whatever the 537 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:41,800 burritos that just fine. I guess, I wish there were 538 00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:44,600 climate books that approach this level of mainstream 539 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,900 acceptability because people read a lot of this stuff too. 540 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,300 I've even seen the effects on loneliness of people re watching 541 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:54,000 sitcoms. There's something inherently 542 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,800 comforting about re-watching, the office for the big The end 543 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,400 of time. And there's also a literary 544 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,200 version of this to with genres. Like one of my friends older 545 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,000 sisters, I sear on Goodreads sometimes and I'll seems like 546 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,400 she reads like 500 Mysteries a year. 547 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:10,600 I can't keep up with how many mystery novels this woman reads. 548 00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:13,800 How much deletion can one person stand in a lifetime? 549 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,300 I'm not sure she might be over her allotment but there is 550 00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:20,400 something that's having like the tropes that are regular rise 551 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,200 that you were just re-experiencing. 552 00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:26,700 That is like really It Feels Like Home in a way and I write 553 00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:29,700 fiction does not feel like that so we've invited. 554 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:31,000 David Foster Wallace has been reference. 555 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,600 I've been reading Infinite Jest for like six months at this 556 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,100 point and psyching myself up to read it. 557 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,100 I have a good time every time except for thoughts of all the 558 00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:41,700 terrible stuff. He did to Mary car, you put that 559 00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:45,600 aside and try to appreciate this Landmark novel its work. 560 00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:48,700 It's not really like a fun in the same way that I want to 561 00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:53,900 experience the familiarity of literary conventions, that make 562 00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:55,900 me feel at home. I'm being challenged, I being 563 00:28:55,900 --> 00:29:00,000 toyed Yes, and being subverted. I want to be subverted in my 564 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,600 free time. There's a line, I think on Parks 565 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,700 and Rec where one of the characters is like Sorry, 566 00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:07,700 Charlie Kaufman people have work in the morning, I butchered the 567 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:08,900 quote, but it's something like that. 568 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:12,200 That like, yeah, I think it can be exhausting a lot of the, 569 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:15,600 hyper experimentation and whatnot. 570 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,200 But I think for climate fiction is that maybe it could seem like 571 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,000 it's making light of a pretty serious issue that we haven't 572 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,900 had closure on yet. And so like, I can kind of see 573 00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:28,800 that there might be some Resistance to maybe parroting or 574 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,200 satirizing, the genre. But at the same time I would 575 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,200 love to see that especially someone who's like not as 576 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,600 familiar with climate fiction. Like the postmodern climate 577 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,600 novel, I think is is a super interesting notion and on that 578 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,900 note to I know that like William volman I think has written a lot 579 00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:47,900 of nonfiction on climate and then also a lot of postmodern 580 00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:49,500 fiction. So maybe if there's somebody to 581 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:54,800 do it it would probably be him. You got red at least be real 15 582 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,700 in or Roz with Z's. Yeah, I think I've read at least 583 00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:04,400 one of his maybe to even. Yeah, wouldn't be something 584 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,400 that's nearly so highbrow or if it would be postmodern, it would 585 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:08,400 be. So, in a way that would be 586 00:30:08,408 --> 00:30:10,900 playing with convention so that there's like there's an 587 00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:14,400 awareness that they're playing with an established genre and 588 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,800 they're poking fun of it. While also affirming it 589 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,800 something that's meant a modern is what I'm trying to say. 590 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,100 I'm talking about genre fiction. Some of these books are like if 591 00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:26,300 you take apocalypse fiction, these are guilty. 592 00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:28,500 Usher's of mine, some of which are terrible. 593 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:32,500 Truly, some of them have politics that will make you want 594 00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:35,800 to barf and you'll have to rage quit but some of them are often 595 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,100 quite good but they're often pretty Tropi like you know, you 596 00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:42,100 know, broadly. What kind of character you're 597 00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:43,400 going to get. In fact, most of these 598 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,400 apocalyptic books. Get just just tell me like when 599 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,300 you imagine who's the protagonist and apocalyptic 600 00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:51,500 fiction series. Who is this person? 601 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,200 I guess kind of like a rugged. I'm picturing a lot of torn. 602 00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:57,800 Link. Is that right? 603 00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:02,200 Like kind of maybe a rugged person who has, like visible 604 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,400 scars, maybe like a sling of bullets across their chest 605 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,000 pretty close. Yeah. 606 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,100 I would say they're always like, like, recently former Special 607 00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,700 Forces or something like that. So they have the best like, 608 00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:19,200 absolutely super powers relative to the like set of skills. 609 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,200 Yeah, yeah, I can ask, ya, sneak around in the forest, no one 610 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,500 would see me kind of deal slit a man's throat. 611 00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:28,100 Yeah. There's like always there's just 612 00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:30,100 a lot of stuff like that as pretty goofy. 613 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:32,900 So you know what you're getting but current climate fiction 614 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:36,000 hasn't had that as far as I know if you're listening still at 615 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,300 this point and you like literature, is there something 616 00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:42,200 out there that is about regular people trying to survive in a 617 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,500 climate change world. That is not, I don't know the 618 00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:47,800 mystery for the future. It's a really interesting book 619 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,000 on this but is also not heavily serialized. 620 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,200 The kind of books that people consume one after the other 621 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,100 page, Turner kind of deal. That's, that's what I'm Can for 622 00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:59,200 as I'm always looking for something less serious. 623 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,400 Unless our see that what you describe as for upsetting? 624 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:06,600 Yeah, I mean I would assume it's a newer genre to write. 625 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,700 So I think there's definitely still time and if it hasn't been 626 00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:15,000 clear, I'm obviously pressuring you to fill this void by writing 627 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,900 this. This book that you would like to 628 00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:20,400 see in the world, I'm too goofy. I would write the version that 629 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,200 was like too self-aware. Like one of the scripts we were 630 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,100 working on back in the day as like, The most like 631 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:32,300 intentionally fourth wall breaking just like satire of 632 00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:37,100 rom-coms and, and you're like that or maybe you told me about 633 00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:38,400 it. Iíve read. 634 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,900 One of your scripts that I feel like felt very aware. 635 00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:44,000 Yeah. And like, there's pluses to that 636 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,700 to us kind of a commentary on how, like, at this point in 637 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,900 Humanities life, everything is a reference to something else in 638 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:53,000 there. Isn't a whole lot of unmediated 639 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,300 experience, like everything has a link to some book. 640 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:59,700 The movie or TV show that you can reference your life is just 641 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,100 if you read old books in the pre-modern or even just early 642 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:08,100 modern era, there's not a lot of like, oh, have you read this 643 00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:10,100 book? Have you seen the latest season 644 00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:12,600 of Six Feet Under? You know, like there's like not 645 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,400 a lot but I feel like maybe read a book about contemporary 646 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,700 humans. It's like it's like 90% of what 647 00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:20,000 we even talked about. Yeah, it's complicated. 648 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,600 I think that's one of the issues for fiction writers today and 649 00:33:23,608 --> 00:33:26,600 there's a lot of discourse about this on the internet of like Are 650 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,200 you being unrealistic for not including social media in your 651 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,100 fiction or acting if you do? Because I don't do it not as 652 00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:39,000 like a rule but like I can't see myself writing down the word 653 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Tick-Tock in a story that I write and pulling it off in any 654 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,100 kind of way that I would want to read a story like that. 655 00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:48,300 And so I do have to kind of contrived these stories to be 656 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,500 like a little bit less realistic than they are because like I 657 00:33:51,508 --> 00:33:53,800 just don't want to read a book about somebody on their phone. 658 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,300 I'm sure someone's done a good job at that. 659 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,500 I've seen it if they've gotten better up, the trying it and 660 00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:02,900 visual media recently where to like pop up on the screen, the 661 00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:04,900 sound will in this like little bubble. 662 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,000 It's even that though. It seems smarmy. 663 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,199 They're like oh look at us like truly. 664 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,300 It is the modern era, you know, like I don't know, maybe that's 665 00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:15,699 just me. But like maybe the first time I 666 00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:18,000 saw it cause I know what house of cards they would do that a 667 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,500 lot. Or they're like, really the 668 00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:21,400 first time that it was like, really big. 669 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:22,900 Yeah. I think you're right. 670 00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:25,800 Yeah, that's the first time I remember seeing it anyway, and 671 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,500 like, I remember, A kind of being like cool but also kind of 672 00:34:28,507 --> 00:34:31,000 like no. Thank you at the same time it 673 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,699 definitely felt novel. Yeah I like the old-school way 674 00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:37,900 of watching like Tony Soprano. Have to drive to a payphone. 675 00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:39,400 Found a deal. Yes. 676 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:42,900 But why do I think that though? Because my life is not like 677 00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:47,100 that, is it just because I've been trained through the way 678 00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:52,100 that we experience media that real real stuff happens on Via 679 00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:54,300 voce. Like, we're like, what why do I 680 00:34:54,308 --> 00:34:56,400 think that? Why can't real life happen? 681 00:34:56,699 --> 00:34:59,700 Digital age. I think this might be connecting 682 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:01,500 us counter to what we were talking earlier. 683 00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:04,500 Just about like the kind of loss of utility of stories is that, 684 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,900 you know, I think this is kind of a cliche criticism now, but 685 00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:11,300 with how much technology and social media we have were not as 686 00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:15,500 active. And the traditional idea of 687 00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:18,200 like, you know, the hero's journey, you go on. 688 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,000 You have to fight the monster not just to kill the monster but 689 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,800 to kind of learn something about yourself and and to uncover some 690 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,400 sort of truth that's like in the bun. 691 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,700 That you bring back to the community and I think in a very 692 00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:33,900 real way, the bun is just a few keystrokes away like any any 693 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:37,200 question that you might have and then to like I think there's 694 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:43,100 just like a growing distaste for that entire process of like, 695 00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:45,400 having to go on a journey to find something out. 696 00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:48,000 I think even Beyond just, like laziness. 697 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,700 I think that we've sort of like, criticized, that cycle to death 698 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,900 more than anything. The problems that plague us 699 00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:58,100 people consider very Eric even hard, right? 700 00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:01,900 Winger Source ideating like citing major institutions to be 701 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:04,100 the source of their problems. They obviously have a totally 702 00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:08,300 different angle than the more left perspective, but I think 703 00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:11,400 that there is this sense that we, like, we already figured it 704 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,100 out. It's just a matter of these 705 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:15,600 problems being too big for us to surmount. 706 00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:17,200 I'm kind of kind of spitballing to. 707 00:36:17,207 --> 00:36:22,100 That's what comes to my mind. You think we no longer as a 708 00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:25,700 civilization or culture believe that individual progress is 709 00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:29,500 Meaningful That's your taste, I think so. 710 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:33,200 You know and like it's something I struggle with for myself and 711 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,000 just in conversations with different friends is that it 712 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,800 seems like the more aware you are of the problems that plague 713 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,900 Society. The less confident you are. 714 00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:42,200 That anything can be done about them. 715 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,300 And so maybe this relates to the climate fiction thing too, is 716 00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:48,400 that and you obviously know much more about this than I, but 717 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,500 like, I think a lot of people are super depressed about it. 718 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:53,600 There's climate anxiety. It's, I think maybe a little 719 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,000 harder to tease out a light-hearted narrative when 720 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,900 they're like, oh, You were ruining the world and the people 721 00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,600 responsible are in control of these enormous Industries, or 722 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,600 maybe it's not even the people responsible, it's the industries 723 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,900 themselves. It's a runaway machine, that was 724 00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:09,600 started by people, that are long dead. 725 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:13,400 And so my gut tells me, I don't want that to be the end of the 726 00:37:13,408 --> 00:37:15,900 conversation, but I think that does explain a lot of the 727 00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,200 paralysis and like, unwillingness for people to 728 00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:24,400 engage in individual Pursuits. Well, there's a big story that 729 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,400 happened a couple of years ago, and I can't speak. 730 00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:28,600 With certainty on exactly how it played out. 731 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,900 But the idea that the carbon footprint was a corporate 732 00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:35,300 invention to take scrutiny off of Corporations, and to get 733 00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:39,600 people to think about their own liability, climate wise and to 734 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,900 have them stop, criticizing oil and gas. 735 00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:45,900 And I'm pretty sure that has been pretty well validated this 736 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:47,800 point, but I can't say with certainty that it is. 737 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,600 And so it could be the case. That maybe we do believe that 738 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,800 actually what you do, as an individual doesn't really 739 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,100 matter. Like, sure you can sort your 740 00:37:56,100 --> 00:37:59,200 recycling Better. You can fly last but like if the 741 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,400 Earth is going to collapse, anyways, like why even bother? 742 00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:05,800 I think you're right. I don't know that we could say 743 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,400 it's a fully explanatory solution that you're posing but 744 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,500 it's in the cultural mix for sure. 745 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,500 Yeah. Well what it makes me think of 746 00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:18,400 two and I've made a lot of tick-tocks about this is that I 747 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:23,300 think people have a tendency to jump to the most massive scope 748 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,500 in any conversation and so like, I like to Make talks about the 749 00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:29,900 importance of community that just like, as an individual, 750 00:38:29,900 --> 00:38:32,400 it's important to find a community that you love and that 751 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,800 loves you super hard. Might take your whole life, but 752 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,000 that's like a worthy Pursuit and people immediately will say, 753 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,100 well, and I mean until capitalism's over, it's not 754 00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:42,900 really possible. It's like, well, you're not 755 00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:47,500 wrong, like capitalism does make it very difficult to form 756 00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:50,000 communities and especially like, if you're fighting for your 757 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,700 life, paying rent, and buying food, but at the same time, I 758 00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:58,700 noticed that we take Small individual problem, and 759 00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:03,100 immediately blow it up to the most massive way to think about 760 00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:05,300 it. Is that the only way to approach 761 00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:08,800 this conversation is on a massive scale with huge 762 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,200 statistics and analyzing major institutions. 763 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,800 And this makes sense because you want to be accurate, but I 764 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,000 characterize this in line of Lancet in the right Vibe. 765 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,800 My second novel as like, taking a bird's-eye view of everything 766 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:23,500 that people think what truth is is to sort of like, remove the 767 00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:25,900 individual. And only look at everything and 768 00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:27,300 a huge. Text and there are different 769 00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:30,200 applications of this that it's like oh if you're an artist, you 770 00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:34,000 explain that story to yourself in terms of Fame that if you 771 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,300 even say, you don't want to be famous and almost sounds like 772 00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:40,000 you're creating a self-defense story or not. 773 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,300 So, you're, you know, defending yourself by not actually going 774 00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:44,200 for it. And just saying, I don't 775 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,100 actually want that where it's like, you can vary validly not 776 00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:51,100 want to be famous and still enjoy your artistic career and I 777 00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:53,900 just think there's countless examples of it is that people 778 00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:56,400 scope is often too big and then they justify doing. 779 00:39:56,500 --> 00:39:58,900 I think because like oh the only way to do something is to do it 780 00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:02,400 at scale which is funny because you can't ever achieve scale. 781 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,200 If you don't start with what's right in front of you and the 782 00:40:05,207 --> 00:40:07,800 funniest part of this critique is that it almost sounds like 783 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,300 Jordan Peterson saying you have to clean your room. 784 00:40:09,300 --> 00:40:12,800 First before you both are called, try to change society. 785 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,500 So like I want to I want to call that out that as that's not what 786 00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:19,000 I'm saying, but I think people go to big picture too soon. 787 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,800 It's not literature inherently personalizing. 788 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,800 You have to write about characters that people care 789 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,400 enough to stick with for several hours. 790 00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:30,400 Hours and this is small. Literature is almost inherently 791 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,200 small and stories that don't do this. 792 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,300 I often associate with things like science fiction, which they 793 00:40:36,300 --> 00:40:39,200 often come from a place where they have a theme or World. 794 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,500 They want to create an Explorer would if we all lived on Mars. 795 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,000 And and it was an anarchist Mars, by the way, rather than 796 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,500 rather than someone coming out at the other, the other end of 797 00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:52,100 the telescope and saying, like, oh, I have an idea for a 798 00:40:52,107 --> 00:40:54,400 character. It's like, it's like a mixture 799 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,700 of some of my, the traits of my Ensign like what they would do. 800 00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:00,500 Under these circumstances, I have such a strong vision of who 801 00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:02,500 this person is and what it's like for them to be in the 802 00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:05,400 world. Those are two entirely different 803 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,500 ways of being an author and are probably several more. 804 00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:11,800 Additionally, but do you agree that literature just has a 805 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,200 personal touch right at its best, it should come from a 806 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,800 place of character? I think so. 807 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,700 Yeah. I you could probably show me an 808 00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:20,500 example of something that doesn't do that. 809 00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:23,000 And it's very funny of books that are like, exploring worlds 810 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,300 to. It doesn't always, but the 811 00:41:24,300 --> 00:41:26,200 literature that I like love the most. 812 00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:28,300 It's because it comes from a place of character. 813 00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:30,000 I think the first book that I had this with was Anna, 814 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,400 Karenina, I told you about, where's Leo III? 815 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,200 Like, I feel so much so strongly towards Anna, and count vronsky 816 00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:38,200 and then Karen into all these people. 817 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,100 My God, I feel like, I'm all of these people simultaneously and 818 00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:44,300 that to me was a Sublime achievement that has been very 819 00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:46,700 rarely matched. Yeah. 820 00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:49,900 Seth, Rogen of all people has an interesting Insight on this, is 821 00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:53,400 that like amateur writers will often make a blank main 822 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,800 character because they want everyone to relate to it. 823 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,700 And so, Name it like John every man and the funny thing is that 824 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,800 like I mean obviously you know, unless you're a very talented 825 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,000 writer, it's probably not going to be very good, but he said 826 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,900 that one of the things that he discovered was the more 827 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:12,300 particular you make the character, the more Universal. 828 00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:16,100 It feels because need to have an individual in order to like 829 00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:19,600 project yourself onto or two like evoke those Universal 830 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,000 qualities. And so sometimes like as a 831 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,200 writer, you're almost doing the audience's work for them, by 832 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,200 trying to make it super. Universal. 833 00:42:27,300 --> 00:42:30,700 When really your job should be, to make it particular, choose 834 00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:33,500 your world, choose your details. Don't make it so abstract. 835 00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:35,900 And then the reader will bring that to the table, they will see 836 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:38,000 themselves and they will see the whole universe within those 837 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,700 particular. He's that you chose so insofar 838 00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:42,800 as we're trying to figure out how to write climate. 839 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:48,800 Genre fiction, low fiction here. Did you ever play that game this 840 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,600 war of mine? No, never heard of it actually. 841 00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:54,900 I don't know to what degree you're a gamer but it's really 842 00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:56,300 amazing storytelling. It's based on this. 843 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,700 Siege of Sarajevo and you're not, it's the only war game I've 844 00:42:59,700 --> 00:43:01,800 ever played where you weren't actually a soldier trying to 845 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,600 kill as many people. It's just surviving like 846 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,700 Scavenging, resources. Trying not to get hit by a 847 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:09,500 sniper. Like if someone there are cases 848 00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:11,700 where to put you into scenarios, where you can try to save 849 00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:14,500 someone, who's about to be abused by a paramilitary 850 00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:17,000 soldier. It can go badly, you can end up 851 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,800 harmed or killed and then what happens with people who live in 852 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,800 your house now that you didn't come home that night from 853 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,000 Scavenging and like their emotional lives. 854 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,800 That understand. How do you do that? 855 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,500 It's really, really successfully. 856 00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:31,400 Beautiful storytelling. That's something. 857 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:32,800 There's nothing else quite like that. 858 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,500 I feel like, if you were going to write genre fiction of 859 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:38,600 climate and you would presuppose that, the world is going through 860 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,200 hard times, you would want to write it in such a way as that 861 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,300 it doesn't have to be nearly so dramatic because not all things 862 00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:48,200 related to climate change, severity will be nearly. 863 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,100 So extreme the some, in some cases truly will, but that's the 864 00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:56,000 kind of humanizing that I think tells a good climate story. 865 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,900 Re that is not abstract. It's not polar bears, it's not 866 00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:02,500 parts per million but it's about individual lives and 867 00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:04,600 tribulations. I think that's where it would 868 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,600 need to go. I think you're right. 869 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600 Yeah, well, it's making me reflect on that. 870 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,300 That. It's like it. 871 00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:15,400 Yeah, it is, it is kind of hard to personalize a problem that it 872 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,500 doesn't have a lot of personal experience to it. 873 00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:20,000 It's like, obviously there are different natural disasters that 874 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,200 are being attributed to climate change today. 875 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,800 So there's always that angle. But like I think for your 876 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,900 average Person in the suburbs in the midwest, even if they 877 00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:31,500 believe in climate change. It's not a very in-your-face 878 00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:33,400 problem for them. So like evoking, those 879 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,400 particularities might pose a challenge. 880 00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:37,600 Unless you go straight apocalypse for out that like 881 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,800 we're fast forwarding to collapse knock on wood. 882 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,100 But that's I think how you would maybe create more of a genre 883 00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:48,800 tailless to make it like more of a personal experience for that 884 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,700 protagonist. There's also so there's so much 885 00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:55,400 apocalyptic fiction to it's just I don't see any of it being 886 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,000 climate or a Did I wonder if part of its politics? 887 00:44:58,100 --> 00:45:01,500 Because a lot of the survivalists literature is quite 888 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:03,900 right wing. I've rented a couple of bikes 889 00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:04,500 started. A couple. 890 00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:07,200 We're all here dog whistles. I'll be like what was that last 891 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,800 thing he said was like I'm pretty sure I know where this is 892 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,500 going. And there's a lot that are just 893 00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:17,000 you could just tell are written by quite lonely men. 894 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,600 Lonely men in bunkers are writing bad, books out there. 895 00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:24,700 I'm unsurprised to learn this now. 896 00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:27,600 Yeah, there's actually like so. Best zombie books are written by 897 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,300 a woman in Oregon that I've read where I felt like they had 898 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:34,100 actually like really developed characters relative for the 899 00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:38,500 genre and was pretty impressed by, but it was such a, in some 900 00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:41,700 ways, it's such a low bar, you're like, oh, it's not just 901 00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:46,600 like a Gruff, former Special Forces Soldier trying to save, 902 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,000 everybody. Oh, it's someone who actually 903 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:54,300 has doubts and concerns and fears and mixed emotions about 904 00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:56,000 things. Wow, that's pretty. 905 00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:58,100 T. It's a little bar, isn't it? 906 00:45:58,300 --> 00:45:59,300 Kind of maybe I should write this. 907 00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:02,700 Maybe I could have a people care about climate change. 908 00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:04,700 Would they want to read a series like this? 909 00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:06,900 I don't know. Well yeah, because like a 910 00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:10,500 specially at I'm not as familiar with this style or the genres 911 00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:13,700 much but like from what it sounding like is this a little 912 00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:17,600 bit of like wish-fulfillment on the author's part that people 913 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:18,600 time. Many of these people will be 914 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,500 disappointed. If an EMP does not destroy all 915 00:46:22,900 --> 00:46:27,900 cars pass 1978 or whatever, that's Vibe that I get and you 916 00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:30,000 know I mean I don't think that's the worst thing in the world. 917 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,300 It kind of makes me think of the onion headline that it's like 918 00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:37,000 man imagines himself to be four times as effective in a fight as 919 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,400 he actually, I'm terrible at remembering funny things. 920 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,500 When I try to reproduce them. The great. 921 00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:43,500 I know the one you're talking about. 922 00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:47,100 Yeah, yeah, but but yeah, I mean that's kind of what it strikes 923 00:46:47,100 --> 00:46:50,000 me as but then I think that that's ripe for parody to my 924 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,700 head immediately goes to like Tropic Thunder that. 925 00:46:52,900 --> 00:46:55,200 Yeah. The like special forces guy but 926 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,700 they're really kind of Cetera is in the performance of the vet 927 00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:01,600 and acting weirder than that, character type of General. 928 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,800 So yeah, I think there's a lot of want to play with there, for 929 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,300 sure. Maybe I should it sounds fun, 930 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,500 although writing, projects are so. 931 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:15,100 So did we ever watched diversity that like that Hamlet to clip 932 00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:18,400 from when he's trying to write Hamlet to when he was like 933 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,100 crying? Yeah, he's like crying it. 934 00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:24,700 Like the beauty of it and like layer to that movie as you, are 935 00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:26,000 you too? And I love like the cut. 936 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,600 After he's crying and he's looks at his cat. 937 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,300 And goes who the hell do you think you are? 938 00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:36,500 Yeah, he's like walking around with their shirt and like no 939 00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:40,600 underwear on like playing on like a like a handheld keyboard 940 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,300 be like yeah that's writing. I've always felt like on the 941 00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:46,100 brink of Madness writing a large project. 942 00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:49,200 Oh 100%. I think I think that is part of 943 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,400 the fun and I have definitely cried while writing something 944 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,600 before. I'm not saying that it was good 945 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,300 but like yeah I think you do. Kind of have to work yourself up 946 00:47:57,300 --> 00:48:00,000 into different places and and mind that in a lot of ways. 947 00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:04,300 One of the other series I read, I gave up on it, but it was very 948 00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:08,200 much like being a boat bum in South, Florida. 949 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,500 And it was basically like an extended Jimmy Buffett song. 950 00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:15,000 So, if you were a fan of anything, Jimmy Buffett, 951 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,200 absolutely not. You could just exist in that 952 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,400 world where you're like kind of a Smuggler but you're not like 953 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,300 one of the mean like cartels Smugglers, you're like one of 954 00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:28,000 the cool. Like Hawaiian shirt guys, just 955 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,600 trying to make a little like dirt bag, a living. 956 00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:34,200 There's something about it that I was really comforting and also 957 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,000 quite they're gonna be a better word than John. 958 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:43,000 Ray is just is just rho p and repetitive but good anyways 959 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,900 something I gotta write this now is that where we're headed? 960 00:48:45,900 --> 00:48:48,700 Are we agreed? Yeah, I think so. 961 00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:52,100 I expected on my desk in two weeks get going. 962 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,200 Yeah, good grief. Well I'm actually happy, we Talk 963 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,400 about climate stuff, nearly enough, I think. 964 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,600 And hopefully, you know, how do you intend this? 965 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,000 Post-modernism meta. Modernism, a whole bunch of 966 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,500 weird literary ramblings. I hope you enjoy it. 967 00:49:08,700 --> 00:49:10,700 I think it's safe to say that there's nothing else like this 968 00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:12,600 in the entire climate podcasting space. 969 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,500 So For Better, or For Worse, it now exists. 970 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,300 Well, yeah, I'm glad to be a part of it. 971 00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:20,300 Thanks for calling me up. We I think we planned this 972 00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:23,500 initially maybe two and a half years ago so I'm glad we made 973 00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:26,000 good. I'm glad we made good too. 974 00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:28,000 Well thanks for being on the show. 975 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,400 Hey thanks for listening. Hope you enjoyed this show. 976 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,600 It was a fun one, an oddball one and one that is near and dear to 977 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,300 my heart. If you like what we're doing 978 00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,200 here. I don't know if your app has a 979 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,000 rating service on it but many of them do a podcast, does Spotify 980 00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:42,500 give us a great rating and review. 981 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,900 Help us get this out to more people and thanks so much for 982 00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:52,000 listening. Thank you so much for listening. 983 00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:54,200 If you could, please subscribe and give us a great rating and 984 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,000 review on Apple podcast or a rating on. 985 00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:58,400 On Spotify that be much appreciated. 986 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,300 It helps us get our content out to more people. 987 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,100 You can sign up for our newsletter at nor e.com, follow 988 00:50:03,100 --> 00:50:05,300 us on social media and we will catch you next time.