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Subscribe, and thank you so much 19 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,400 for listening to another season of reversing climate change. 20 00:00:58,100 --> 00:01:00,800 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate Podcast. 21 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,300 I'm Ross Kenyon, we have Paul gamble with us. 22 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:06,300 Now, Paul when's the last time you did a shack here? 23 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,200 I'm back. I can't remember. 24 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,800 That was months ago, but dozens of episodes, perhaps, but we had 25 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,300 to bring you back on because we have someone that has come up on 26 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:17,500 the show. So, so, so many times we have 27 00:01:17,508 --> 00:01:19,500 dr. Bryan Caplan, who's a professor 28 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:22,600 of Economics, at George Mason University, author, of a couple 29 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:24,900 different books. The myth of the, rational, voter 30 00:01:25,100 --> 00:01:28,900 selfish reasons to have more kids and most recently open 31 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:31,300 borders. The and ethics of immigration 32 00:01:31,500 --> 00:01:34,800 which was co-authored or done in partnership with Zach. 33 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,500 Weiner Smith of SMBC, my favorite web comic. 34 00:01:38,700 --> 00:01:41,600 Yeah, I've always been sending me these on and off for some 35 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,000 years so that was a very good get Brian. 36 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,200 Thank you for being here. Great pleasure to be here with 37 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,600 you Ross. So many times, we've talked 38 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,600 about the ideological Turing test, we're gonna get into 39 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,600 climate change and immigration, which we've been meaning to do a 40 00:01:53,607 --> 00:01:58,400 show about, but the ideological Turing test is been super 41 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,200 useful. We strive to You exemplify this 42 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,800 test on the show, what exactly is it and to, what degree did 43 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,300 you originated this or capture something out of The Ether and 44 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:12,200 why do you think it's important? Right. 45 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,400 So just for background there, once long ago, was the Turing 46 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:21,600 test from Alan Turing and for him, it was a way to adjudicate 47 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:26,000 whether or not a computer actually was intelligent and it 48 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,600 came down to this, you have a computer in one room, a human in 49 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,400 the Other and then there is a blind audience, the cap to the 50 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,900 dust, get to see what's behind the door and in the original 51 00:02:37,900 --> 00:02:38,700 Turing. Test. 52 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:41,400 If a human audience, cannot tell the difference between the 53 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,900 computer and the one room and the human the other room. 54 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,200 And you say, the computer has passed the Turing test. 55 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,700 Now, my idea was to say, well, we can think about something 56 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,600 similar for being able to explain a view that you disagree 57 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,700 with. And I called it, the ideological 58 00:02:56,700 --> 00:02:58,500 Turing test. And as far as I know, I am the 59 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:02,000 human being who originated the phrase by The Logical train 60 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,400 test. And it just said, look suppose 61 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,500 that we get a person who sincerely believes interview and 62 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,600 then another person who does it and we make it blind. 63 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,700 So the audience doesn't get to see who is who and then we get 64 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,800 to see whether people are able to tell the difference. 65 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,000 Between the sincere here into the view, and the person who 66 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,600 disagrees any, especially the best way of doing this, is if 67 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,700 people actually sincerely, hold of, you can't tell the 68 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:31,100 difference between the person who sincerely holds it and you, 69 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:36,300 then you the non-believer or the unbeliever have passed this 70 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:39,800 ideological Turing test. And in the motive of this was 71 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:42,700 really inspired by JS Mill, who has this line. 72 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,600 If you'd only explain your side of a case, you know, but little 73 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,700 that and yeah, the motive was to say, all right, of course, it's 74 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:53,100 easy for an individual just Proclaim unilateral 8. 75 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:55,800 I understand views, I disagree with incredibly. 76 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,800 Well, real to be kneel before me, but that's not a test, 77 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,700 that's just self-evaluation. What's, what's great about that? 78 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,300 On the other end of test is one where you actually put your 79 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,900 ability to mimic a view on the line and see whether people 80 00:04:13,900 --> 00:04:17,899 really can in a blind test. Distinguish between you and 81 00:04:17,899 --> 00:04:20,399 someone who really believes it. And if they can't then you have 82 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:23,500 shown not just to your own satisfaction which is a really 83 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:26,800 low bar but a satisfaction of people actually hold the view 84 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,700 that you understand that view right now this by itself doesn't 85 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:34,800 show that you're right, and they're wrong but it is still a 86 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:40,000 very reasonable first step to say look I understand this view 87 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,300 that I disagree with, you can't just simply say, I don't get 88 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:46,200 what you're saying. I have managed to mimic you. 89 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,700 So it's not a matter of, I'm confused. 90 00:04:49,700 --> 00:04:52,400 I havent heard the arguments, I don't get it, rather. 91 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,400 There's got to be some deeper reason for the disagreement. 92 00:04:55,500 --> 00:05:01,400 And that way, it does advance the dialogue because it gets 93 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,600 past all of these common objections of my critics. 94 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,800 Just don't get what I'm saying, man, it's so subtle, it's so 95 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,400 difficult. So complicated? 96 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,700 Or of course, they are such a bunch of dummies there. 97 00:05:12,700 --> 00:05:15,500 So dishonest they could never comprehend what I'm trying to 98 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:17,700 say. And the ideological Turing, test 99 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:24,200 is a neutral objective way of seeing whether you actually are 100 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:28,800 as good as you think you are. It's such a useful, your ristic 101 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:30,600 and you're a man of your wrist. Dicks. 102 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,700 We wanted to ask you additionally about public 103 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:35,700 bedding, which is something that you've done with Scholars with 104 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:37,900 whom you might have disagreements or different ways 105 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:40,900 of viewing things. So Paul one of you, you ask 106 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:44,400 Brian about that. Yeah, so I saw a reference to 107 00:05:44,407 --> 00:05:46,100 this on Twitter a little bit ago. 108 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:51,000 You made a public bet against yoram Bauman in 2014 regarding 109 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,300 climate change. So for the listeners, what are 110 00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:56,200 the terms of the wager? And how's it going so far, 111 00:05:56,700 --> 00:05:58,600 right? So just let me back up a little 112 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,800 bit. So background is I have a whole 113 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,600 lot of public debts, and Rye record right now is 20 wins out 114 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:13,300 of 20 bets that have resolved undefeated until a few years ago 115 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,200 when there had been a 15-year pause. 116 00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:20,900 And global warming. I told yoram Bauman who has 117 00:06:20,900 --> 00:06:25,200 written a graphic novel on, I think it's a, I think it's like 118 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,800 the cartoon guide to global warming or something like that. 119 00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:32,500 I said, look, I think that warming will continue but I 120 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:35,800 think you're overconfident to think that well and I got him to 121 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,800 give me 3 to 1 odds that the pause would continue for another 122 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,100 15 years. So basically, I win if the pause 123 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:46,100 continues for and we have continues overall in town, 124 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:51,300 January 1st 2013 and he wins if the balls ends and then in the 125 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:53,200 subsequent years, worming resumed. 126 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:56,400 All right. Now I would say that in my view, 127 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,500 The Classy thing for him to say with as well, obviously it was a 128 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:04,000 we gave him good odds so it's not fair to say that he was a 129 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,200 fool for for baby making this fact, you know. 130 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,400 So he being perhaps a stand-up, you know, like he literally is a 131 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,500 stand-up comedian so maybe he's just doing this to be funny. 132 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:17,900 But for each year, when the data comes Shin he laughs at me on 133 00:07:17,900 --> 00:07:21,000 Twitter, right? And I would say, well gee, I 134 00:07:21,008 --> 00:07:24,500 mean I you gave me 3 to 1 odds. So bargain for that, I wasn't 135 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:26,600 saying that I thought that this wouldn't happen. 136 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,300 I'm just saying I thought you were overconfident anyway so 137 00:07:29,300 --> 00:07:31,600 those those are the terms that I win. 138 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:37,000 If that 15 year, pause that what did happen in June until 2030 139 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,100 and he went otherwise and right now he's winning and you know, I 140 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:43,400 will say like I regret the bad. I wish I had made it, but on the 141 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,200 other hand I got 10 more years so things turned around. 142 00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:49,700 Probably won't, but it would not bother me at all. 143 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:53,000 If on 2030, I lost my first vet because that would mean, I had 144 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,400 another ten years of perfect perfect wedding. 145 00:07:56,100 --> 00:07:58,300 My guess is probably all lose something before that. 146 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:00,800 It, well, that it won't be actually be your room that my 147 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,500 track record, but just stepping back singing with anyone can 148 00:08:04,500 --> 00:08:06,800 lose it that. All right, we're lit. 149 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,700 Winning winning those in one bet, doesn't do very much on the 150 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:11,300 other end. Waiting 20 bets out of 20. 151 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:16,600 I have said does show a lot shows that you've got Something 152 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,000 that would be very unlikely to happen by chance. 153 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,400 Indeed, and I connect this with your Turing test in that your 154 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:23,600 ristic. That the way I framed this 155 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,800 question is because public betting in this way, is a way of 156 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,700 holding Scholars or people who run their mouths and public 157 00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:31,700 accountable. And some quantifiable way is 158 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:33,299 that probably what you're trying to do. 159 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:35,600 Absolutely. So anyone can make vague 160 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,799 predictions and then wait around for something to happen. 161 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:40,200 That's kind of consistent with the prediction and then go a ha. 162 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,299 See, I'm right. I can make the prediction of 163 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:45,900 there's going to be horrible, terrorist attacks. 164 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,700 Coming in the future. And then, I just wait around. 165 00:08:48,700 --> 00:08:50,500 For the next one is aha wasn't I right? 166 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:53,100 Wasn't I brilliant didn't I have a crystal ball, right? 167 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:55,700 And if they don't happen, then I just say, don't you? 168 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:58,300 Just you wait and then I just wait around for something to 169 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:00,500 happen and I say see there's that right? 170 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:04,000 So anyone could do that is totally cheesy, it's pathetic 171 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,700 and you shouldn't do that. Now what's the alternative? 172 00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:11,700 The alternative is to very clearly specify what you're 173 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:16,300 saying so to give a cut off and you know, for like how many I 174 00:09:16,308 --> 00:09:19,000 have to die from their service attack and also to give a 175 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:25,500 deadline so you by June 30th 2023, all right then you've said 176 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:29,000 something where you can be definitively right or wrong and 177 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,700 then when you're right it means something. 178 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:34,200 And of course when you're wrong, I mean something now even that 179 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,200 though isn't so great because you could just make something 180 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,800 that's so likely to happen that you're right all the time. 181 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:43,500 So yeah, I could say here's my prediction in the next 5 182 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:45,300 minutes, there will be no terrorist attack that kills a 183 00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:47,600 million or more people. And then I just wait five 184 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,400 minutes ago, huh? See you on? 185 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,600 So, right, right. Yet again right now, with the 186 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,000 BET you've got to find some other human being that disagrees 187 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,000 that, right? And then you have rations the 188 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,500 right to be right. So only one of the two of you 189 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:05,600 and then actually turned out to be correct. 190 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:07,900 And when you're doing that you'll find you're not going to 191 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:10,300 get a lot of people who will take the effects like in the 192 00:10:10,308 --> 00:10:12,700 next five minutes, no terrorist attack that we can we kill 193 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:15,200 million people or more people aren't going to want to put 194 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,900 money on that because yeah. Yeah, well obviously that's such 195 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:20,200 a ridiculous BET, right? And so when you have to 196 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,600 negotiate with another person, is it disagrees? 197 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:25,300 Just finding anyone on Earth is willing to put money on the 198 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:29,600 other side, really does put you in a better League of 199 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,200 production. And of course, part of what you 200 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,200 often want to do then is to negotiate odds. 201 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,000 And then again, you can see well, are you winning bats? 202 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,200 Where you have to offer fantastic odds to get somebody 203 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:42,700 else to bet. And that case again it doesn't 204 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:46,200 really show that much on the other hand if you give odds 205 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,400 today, You went anyway, that's impressive. 206 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,100 Rationing the right to be right. Is such an economist way of 207 00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:55,800 putting that. Yeah, I'm here. 208 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,900 Like if you're the judge in your own case you're right all the 209 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:01,900 time, everyone's right all the time if they get to adjudicate 210 00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:04,600 it. Yeah, so let's say out of all my 211 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,100 batch, there's only one where the person who lost just 212 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:10,400 stubbornly say no I didn't write. 213 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,000 So you know, of course you could bet on the sunrise tomorrow and 214 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,400 the other person to do to say there with the sunshine in the 215 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:19,600 ation do it didn't just like that's possible. 216 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,800 The one case where my partner did not admit that he was right. 217 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,000 Was there's a bet on deaths from terrorism, is Terrorism and 218 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,700 France and was really bright and terrorism and the standard was 219 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:36,800 no more than 500 and then he just counted a plane crash that 220 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,600 no one else on Earth considered terrorist. 221 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,900 I mean, he said oh that's terrorism and like how is that 222 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:45,000 terrorism is well, Isis said they were happy like so that's 223 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,300 your stasis good. You're so if there's an 224 00:11:47,300 --> 00:11:50,500 earthquake and Isis said ye earthquake, this was the this 225 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,900 was a last punishment to France that would have meant that. 226 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,000 That was terrorism. Yak so, yeah, like there's, 227 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,600 there's a point where some people will believe and say 228 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,300 anything. But the nice thing that Betty is 229 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:08,200 someone has to really actually just baldly refuse to face facts 230 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,300 for reasonably specified that it's not. 231 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:15,400 And in the honest outcome of one side says, yes I was I was 232 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:16,300 wrong. Here's your money. 233 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,000 Yeah. Well that's the beauty of making 234 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,800 the public but I want to shift gears here and ask about your 235 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,600 latest work which is open borders as the title and it's a 236 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,200 graphic novel is drawn by is a queen your Smith of SMBC. 237 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,300 We talked about him he's not a nonfiction graphic novel 238 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:32,600 important to specify? Yes. 239 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,200 Yeah. So how did that come about? 240 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,600 What inspired you to write that? And and also just for the 241 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,400 listeners you haven't read it. Like, what's the thesis? 242 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:44,500 Alright, so in terms of the inspiration, so I'm a researcher 243 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:49,400 and a lot of what I do is try To take research that is actually 244 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,300 really important and interesting but it's written and written in 245 00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:54,400 a boring way and appears in journals, no one ever would 246 00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:58,500 whenever an open voluntarily and just to put it all together in a 247 00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:01,200 package to draw it to the attention of a broader audience. 248 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:02,900 That's what I've done in a lot of my work. 249 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:05,800 Right? And in my mind is always well, 250 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,600 how can I make it even better? How can I communicate more 251 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,100 effectively? How can I get people to pay 252 00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:13,400 attention? And in my reading I noticed that 253 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,300 there are a number of very high quality nonfiction graphic. 254 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,400 Roles most notably Larry godox, cartoon history, the universe. 255 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,200 And when you read these works, you look at them and say, oh, 256 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,400 this is just for kids, the open up, say no, this is not just for 257 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,300 kids, it's highly accurate. It's careful. 258 00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:30,500 It's just a really effective way of conveying. 259 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:32,100 A lot of information to the reader. 260 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:34,600 In a short amount of time. He is a well drawn picture. 261 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,000 Really is worth a thousand words. 262 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,700 It's not just cheap talk, that's true, right? 263 00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:42,500 So I looked at these works and said, here is this great author 264 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:47,300 who has taken human history and accurately Conveyed, it in a 265 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:50,900 highly efficient way so that people can learn a lot in a 266 00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:53,600 short amount of time. And furthermore, he makes it so 267 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,200 fun that people will keep reading. 268 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:59,500 So, first increases the density, the informations get more 269 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:02,600 information per minute than you ever could from regular book and 270 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,500 then makes it so entertaining. People read the book, right? 271 00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:08,500 So I looked at that and said, wow, that's a great thing that 272 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:10,100 he's done. Can I do that? 273 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:13,400 And I really like books of this kind. 274 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,300 So I just curious just the fact that Larry got, I can do it. 275 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,500 I mean I can do it, but I said well why don't I try? 276 00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:22,300 And I've been really passionate about immigration for, I've been 277 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,900 blogging about it for 15 years. There's a lot of fantastic 278 00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:29,800 research about it that I think if people would just listen to 279 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,700 it and really absorb it, it would blow their minds. 280 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:37,200 And I took this research and I presented in this graphic format 281 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:40,200 and then I shopped around for artists and I was able to get my 282 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,800 number one choice artist in the world, which is a cleaner spent 283 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,900 of Saturday Morning Breakfast. Cereal sounds like you guys know 284 00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,600 who he is. He's And I talked him into 285 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,300 working on it with me and open borders is the product of our 286 00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:58,000 collaboration. So I wrote 95% of the words and 287 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,500 I also did storyboards. So that means that I use Google 288 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,600 images and some comic software to lay out with book would look 289 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,500 like and then he drew it but then he pumped up the funniness. 290 00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:12,100 Especially, and then he also had a lot of great advice about how 291 00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:14,600 to change the panels to make them work better. 292 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,300 He had Great advice. And just how to present the 293 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:20,600 argument in a way that would be more appealing to a broader 294 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,900 audience. So Zach great this collaborator 295 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:26,500 I've ever had he's just so wonderful and such a great 296 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,100 mentor to me in the graphic arts. 297 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:34,200 Now in terms of what the book says, well, there's a few things 298 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,800 that are going on. So one of them is I just begin 299 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,800 with a more perspective that says that preventing someone 300 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,600 from moving from a poor country to rich. 301 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,800 Country is a Very harsh punishment to impose on another 302 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,300 human being. And so, if you're going to do 303 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:52,600 it, you ought to have a good reason. 304 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,700 In other words, they say that morally, yes, to immigration 305 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,600 should be our default our presumption, right? 306 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,800 And then the question is, all right, so why not? 307 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000 There are a lot of horrible things where when you know all 308 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,700 the facts you can say well it's terrible. 309 00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:10,800 But the alternative is even worse. 310 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,600 So we should do this terrible thing but just flipping the 311 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,100 presumption and saying that immigration. 312 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,900 Actions of the kind of things that need to be justified. 313 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,200 Once you're doing them, you should always be asking what is 314 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,300 the cheapest and most humane way of dealing with the problem that 315 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:25,800 the restrictions are meant to address. 316 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:29,000 So we aren't any harsher than we really need to be to deal with 317 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:31,700 these severe problems if they're out there. 318 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:36,300 So that's where I just begin. And then, I go over all of the 319 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:38,700 main complaints about immigration will lead to all the 320 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:41,800 main ones, but the way I try to go for the main ones again, I 321 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,300 will just say, since this is given this podcast, I really 322 00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:48,400 dropped the ball on the Garments and I can say I ran out of ran 323 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,400 out of space, but I could have rearranged it and I didn't know 324 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:52,500 if there could be a second edition. 325 00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:54,700 I really like to put in an environmental chapter, there's 326 00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:56,900 some, there's a bit on the environment but it's not nearly 327 00:16:56,900 --> 00:17:02,000 enough I would say and this is my bad but in any case I go 328 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,700 through the arguments that I hear most often and I begin, 329 00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:09,800 then with the idea that a that open border is sore that we 330 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,700 would cost poverty and there I say there is a lot of research 331 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:16,599 saying precisely the opposite that it wouldn't borders is the 332 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:20,500 best known way of reducing poverty or increasing human 333 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,599 productivity and the research just comes down to this when you 334 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:29,300 move subtle, a human being from Haiti to Florida, their 335 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:32,000 contribution to the world economy increases enormously, 336 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:33,500 right? So obviously their earnings 337 00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:35,600 increase and, you know, there's a reason why there are things 338 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,000 increase, which is that a Haitian can accomplish a lot 339 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,400 more in Florida than Haiti. We're flipping it around. 340 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,700 Imagine that you just got shoved over to Haiti. 341 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,500 What can you accomplish their only not very much. 342 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:49,800 All right. When you move a person from a 343 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,400 poor country to rich country, you don't just make their life 344 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,100 better. You increase their total 345 00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:57,900 contribution to the world. And when you just go and do the 346 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:01,100 math on this and say, well, if each individual, when they move 347 00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:03,900 becomes vastly more productive, and then, if a whole lot of 348 00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:06,900 people want to move which other research strongly confirms, 349 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:10,000 well, then when we think about, what would be the effect of open 350 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,900 borders on the well-being of mankind, it comes down to this, 351 00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:16,200 your multiplying, a huge gain for immigrants. 352 00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:20,400 Aunt times a huge number of people that want to move and 353 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,400 when you multiply one really big thing times, another really big 354 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,200 thing, you get the biggest thing that any Economist has ever 355 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,200 measured, right? So a very standard estimate of 356 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,800 the economic games of open borders, is that it would double 357 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,900 the production of an kind, you're not instantly because it 358 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:38,900 takes a lot of time for people to move but the ultimate effect 359 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:42,400 would be a massive increase in the productivity of mankind. 360 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,500 And that for me then is whenever you're thinking about Other 361 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,200 problem with free immigration, you always need to weigh 362 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,400 whatever you're talking about against many tens of trillions 363 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,100 of gains per year, right? And that's really where the book 364 00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:58,700 comes down to. I talk about a lot of other 365 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:01,000 problems but now he's just saying none of them are in the 366 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,200 ballpark of tens of trillions of dollars per year. 367 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,400 Yes, I know that trillions of dollars of gains are not going 368 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,400 to make headlines the same way. That one terrorist attack makes 369 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,500 headlines. So yeah, that's why I wrote the 370 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:18,900 book because the The enormous benefits When borders are not 371 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:23,200 psychologically compelling whereas the trivial harms are 372 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,800 psychologically compelling. So I wanted to write this book 373 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,700 to give people a better perspective and to say, look 374 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,200 forget about your emotions, calm down, humble yourself before the 375 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,100 evidence. Just realized the fact that 376 00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:38,800 you're upset proves really next to nothing and the fact that 377 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,000 something bores you again, disapprove very much although 378 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,800 along the way I try to make the gains exciting and try to Make 379 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:52,000 the focus on symbolic costs unappealing and then when you do 380 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,700 a lot of a lot of what you can do with this nonfiction graphic 381 00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:59,400 novel format is to try to not just get people to rethink 382 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,600 things, but also to try to get people's emotions to align with 383 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:09,100 what rational person would have. Indeed, and you are correct that 384 00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:12,500 in my reading, this there are a lot of points and questions. 385 00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:16,200 I wanted to ask from a climate perspective that I know you ran 386 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,900 out of room. There's a lot that is covered in 387 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,200 this book. You basically take on common, 388 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,400 right? Of Center and left of center 389 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,700 objections to more open immigration policy. 390 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:27,200 I imagine that most people listening to the show, have an 391 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,600 understanding of right-wing objections to immigration that 392 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,900 are about culture and integration and depressing wages 393 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:37,100 of native born. Citizens and you take that on, 394 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,300 but I think something that might be more interesting to our 395 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,600 listeners is that they're worried that if we have 396 00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:45,900 trillions of dollars of goods and services being generated, 397 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:48,800 additionally, every year from an open immigration policy, 398 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,900 wouldn't this put, you know, multiple times the amount of 399 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:56,000 stress on the climate than we're already putting on there? 400 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:58,100 Isn't that a good reason for environmentalist to be 401 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:00,400 suspicious of immigration, right? 402 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,300 So I would say that it's if you are just suspicious of economic 403 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:06,000 growth in poor countries and General. 404 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,000 Then that's also reason to be suspicious of open borders. 405 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,600 In both cases, you're talking about trying to give a standard 406 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,400 of living of the developed world to the rest of mankind, who the 407 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:18,900 target doesn't currently enjoy it. 408 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,800 I'd say when you put it that way, then it does become harder 409 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,300 to just bite the bullet and say yeah we've really just got to 410 00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:28,200 prevent this. We have to go and keep most of 411 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,200 mankind mired in poverty in order to save the planet. 412 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,900 And it does make you think well it's really that bad. 413 00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:35,300 Or is there any other or specially? 414 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:37,300 It's Or any other way. Good God is there. 415 00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:39,000 No. Other way to save the planet 416 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,700 other than to keep billions of people trapped in horrible 417 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:44,700 poverty right now. That's the again, that's just 418 00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:45,900 the kind. Now, again, of course, you could 419 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:48,600 ask that question and then think about it for years and said, no, 420 00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:51,600 there's no other way. Oh, man, but on the other hand, 421 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,700 when you start asking that question, I think that it does 422 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,900 get your mind working in a more constructive way. 423 00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:03,400 So, in terms of my response that I'd say both for economic growth 424 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,500 for saving the planet or restricting immigration. 425 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,200 Saving the planet I would. First of all, go to something 426 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,200 that's called the environmental kuznets curve. 427 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,500 I don't know if you guys have talked about that on this, we 428 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:16,200 have the runners running through it again. 429 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,300 Yeah. So there's a great Economist 430 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,800 thing, Simon kuznets and he noticed that if you just focus 431 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,900 on the kinds of pollutants of industrial civilization that 432 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:29,400 when economic growth begins, then those pollutants increase, 433 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:32,900 and then you get more growth of increased further just but then 434 00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:37,400 once you get to a mid-level well of development pollution per 435 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,400 person starts to go down again. And so what this means is the 436 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,000 poorest countries are totally lacking industrial pollutants 437 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,000 and then countries that are moderately richer or Worse, 438 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,500 countries the rich and that are even worse but once finally the 439 00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:52,700 countries actually get reasonably good. 440 00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,700 Then the problem starts to go down and then finally you go to 441 00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:58,000 the richest countries and see that their that they are pretty 442 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,000 clean most measures. Now this already see that this 443 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,700 has happened for a lot of particulate measures, the 444 00:23:03,708 --> 00:23:07,500 pollution and now It seems like it is happening for countries 445 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:11,900 like the US for carbon emissions where you'll seeing that see at 446 00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:15,600 least the go like carbon per unit of GDP is definitely going 447 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,800 down and I think that it's actually actually emissions per 448 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,900 person are starting to go down as well for the kuznetsk curve. 449 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:25,200 So mean really what this says is that the danger zone is when 450 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,000 you're in the middle level of development. 451 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,000 And so the best thing for the planet is just to fast forward 452 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,100 through the middle Zone and get everyone Rich really quick. 453 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:37,600 It's quick, as you can. Alright, so that is the coolest 454 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,300 that story, which I will say least for a lot of pollutants. 455 00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:42,700 It's clearly true. And for things like particulate, 456 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,300 it's so it really is true that when you go to the richest 457 00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,000 countries, the air is good. Again, people challenge it. 458 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,200 This is the whole decoupling argument with d growth 459 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,600 economics, where they're saying that actually the wealthier. 460 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:54,700 You are. There's almost a linear 461 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:57,700 relationship with how much material throughput is consumed. 462 00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:01,200 How many emissions come out. So I wonder to what degree it 463 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,400 is. Truly decoupled. 464 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,400 Although whenever we talk about this on the show, we get emails. 465 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,800 Got it from one side or the other or our guest is vociferous 466 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,800 in their defense of their perspective. 467 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:14,000 So I guess you would say that this holds true for you and your 468 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,800 mind this model for carbon emissions. 469 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,200 I saw, I'll be honest and say, like I'm not an expert on this. 470 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,400 But I would say that among all of the environmental economists 471 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,800 that I have read and say good. Number is two, coupling 472 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,900 argument, seems to be accepted front of my people from a wide 473 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:32,500 range of ideologies. So that is one of my critics for 474 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:35,000 when you can trust results in people with very different. 475 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:39,700 These who are never less quantitatively scale degree. 476 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:44,000 So that seems pretty good. Now, you know, kuznetsky 477 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,000 herbicide, this question of are other cheaper more Humane ways 478 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,500 of dealing with problems of the warming or environmental 479 00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:56,300 problems generally, then just keeping people in poverty and 480 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,700 their I know that there is a very nice list. 481 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:03,900 So basic environment economics says that not only can you 482 00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:08,100 reduce pollution by taxing it. But you can get a better more 483 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:11,900 cleanup for dollar of cost than by any other methods and this 484 00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:15,000 approach has really been check so you can go and read like 485 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,300 Alan. Blinders hard had soft Hearts 486 00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:20,300 where he goes and talks about. This isn't just some kind of 487 00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:24,500 textbook Theory where we've actually gone and compared the 488 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,600 abatement cost of traditional command and control to just 489 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,800 doing taxes it looks like you can cut the cost down 50% by 490 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,300 doing it through pollution taxes, right? 491 00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:39,000 So there is that At and then also I am perhaps not 492 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:42,300 surprisingly. I think that nuclear power is 493 00:25:42,308 --> 00:25:45,800 greatly undervalued and that is of course, a super-clean very 494 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,300 low, carbon way of getting energy, right? 495 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:51,600 And I think a very unpopular, but I think for toe, almost 496 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,000 totally emotional reasons might say like Fukushima nuclear 497 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,600 accidents as far as an 80, people have died. 498 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,900 And yet this leads Germany to go and start shutting down, their 499 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:04,400 nuclear plants and switching over to Cole, which by all the 500 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,500 estimates I seen will. Thousands of people and be much 501 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:11,900 worse for carbon emissions. But nuclear power is highly 502 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,800 emotional and cold. People are just used to it. 503 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:19,500 Yeah, this is one of the many psychological facts about 504 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,500 technology is that bad technology that is familiar 505 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:26,200 doesn't upset. People wear as much better 506 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,700 technology. That seems spooky and unfamiliar 507 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:31,200 on the other hand, freaks people out. 508 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,600 So if I could summarize because of the Cuckoo's Nest curve, I 509 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,200 think, what I hear you saying is that if open borders and more 510 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,100 immigration would increase economic output, your argument 511 00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:47,100 is that, well, yes, that could in the short term potentially 512 00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:49,300 increase emissions. But ultimately, it should cause 513 00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:52,600 a decrease because of the effects that we observe from the 514 00:26:52,608 --> 00:26:54,400 kuznets curve. So right, you know, in other 515 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,800 words, I'd say that we know the worst thing for global warming 516 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,800 is for most of the world to just stay stuck at middle income for 517 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:00,800 a long time. Yeah. 518 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,300 Is that still? That's when they're doing the 519 00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:07,300 worst thing and I think Still this point, it's pretty much 520 00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:09,600 inevitable that almost all the world is going to be 521 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,800 middle-income and really like that actually most of it already 522 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,300 on majority of the world already has been ill income by 523 00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:19,700 conventional definitions and that's going to continue. 524 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,900 And if we could just very quickly, Zoom through middle 525 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:28,100 income into Rich, then it seems like that's going to be the best 526 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:30,100 scenario that's available, right? 527 00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,500 Any, of course, I, you know, I do think that you should always 528 00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:35,400 think about what is the harm of keeping people in poverty. 529 00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:38,900 As well. So I would say that so many of 530 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:42,400 the problems with global warming can be mitigated by Rich Society 531 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,300 whereas or Society really is in great trouble. 532 00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:47,900 So I think about Bangladesh when I hear they've had fantastic 533 00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:50,800 economic growth for 10 years. And all right, well, it's 534 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,200 especially good for them because they're one of the countries 535 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,900 that is most at risk from global warming. 536 00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:59,000 If they were still, as poor as they were in 1980, then they 537 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,400 probably wouldn't have the resources to cope with it. 538 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:03,800 Let this economic growth continue and they'll have the 539 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,900 money to go and Build some awesome, dikes and least have 540 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:10,400 earned a lot of the harm. So you know, given an 541 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,700 ideological Turing test like why are the D growth ours saying 542 00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:17,400 what they are like, why you know given what you're saying here is 543 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,300 seems to me like it's a pretty clear case that what we want and 544 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:24,100 what we should all want around. The world is just massive 545 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:27,200 increased economic growth as fast as possible everywhere. 546 00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:29,600 So why do people believe otherwise? 547 00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:32,600 Well, so I think, in terms of the ideological Turing test, 548 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,300 what I would say is I Brian, I'm offering you false alternative 549 00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:40,700 between either the rest of the world gets his rich as the us or 550 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:42,900 they just stay stuck where they are and we continue doing what 551 00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:46,000 we're doing, how about an alternative scenario, rich 552 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,700 countries? Just go and give a whole bunch 553 00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:52,900 of help to poor countries so that they can rather than 554 00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:56,700 becoming like us just have essentially just get a big share 555 00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:00,700 of our production and then we don't need to actually change 556 00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:05,200 total emissions of all we just go and have rich countries give 557 00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:07,300 away. A lot of foreign aid is either 558 00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:11,500 charity reparations or countries and then, we don't need to 559 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:12,700 really develop the rest of the world. 560 00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:15,300 So, in other words, you know, I think, in terms of the 561 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,400 ideological Turing test, you can just say, well, Brian, just 562 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,000 trying to let rich countries continue. 563 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,000 Being the corrupt consumption Hogs that they are right now, 564 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,700 and then go and concern for all to say, what about all those? 565 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:29,600 Poor people in poor countries, shouldn't they be able to have a 566 00:29:29,608 --> 00:29:31,600 nice life too? And I think someone might say, 567 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,300 hey, how about rich countries us cut back by? 568 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:37,800 50% which is well within their abilities. 569 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,400 We won't starve in the u.s. we cut back, our consumption by 50% 570 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,300 and then give the Surplus to poor countries in return for 571 00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:48,300 them, not industrializing. So I think that is something 572 00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:50,300 that you very well. Might say and reply. 573 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,400 So again, if I wanted to have a good version of it, I think I 574 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,900 probably would push on that a lot. 575 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,700 Yeah. Isn't that isn't that incredibly 576 00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:00,400 selfish? Like the idea that these poor 577 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,500 countries shouldn't be allowed to industrialize? 578 00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:06,300 Shouldn't be allowed to achieve the same levels of Comfort and 579 00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:08,400 luxury that we have well they support redistribution. 580 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,300 They say like if the economy is in steady state or its in an 581 00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:15,000 indie growth then we are obliged basically to redistribute 582 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,700 because if the pie isn't growing that's what justifies the myth. 583 00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:22,100 This is in their words that it's the only way to keep the system. 584 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:24,900 Going that the bigger the pie is, the more people will serve 585 00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:27,200 but if the pie was no longer growing their be revolutions 586 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,700 tomorrow, therefore redistribution, right? 587 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,300 So mean, that one seems so exaggerated that immediately 588 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,000 Like so that's the Naomi Klein version. 589 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,600 Brian right. Well, mean, she's not known for 590 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:46,400 her moderation or or, or, or version to hyperbole, right? 591 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,000 You so you like the idea that it like it, like if countries don't 592 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,300 have growth, this is likely to lead to Revolution. 593 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,100 Like I really don't see that. There's of course throughout 594 00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:55,800 most of human history. They had no growth and 595 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,100 revolutions rare. So I don't think that that makes 596 00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:02,300 too much sense. So again I mean I would think 597 00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:06,800 that the anti-growth you like Carrying anti-growth policy 598 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,100 would be to say, look, we're not saying poor country should stay 599 00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:11,700 live in misery. We're saying that rich countries 600 00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:13,900 should go and make it up to them rich. 601 00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:16,100 Countries have already messed up the planet and they should hand 602 00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:18,700 over a whole lot of surplus resources. 603 00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:22,300 They don't really need so that we can fix the planet. 604 00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:27,300 And also greatly reduce the amount of poverty in the rest of 605 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:31,200 the world, and really just get rich countries to appreciate 606 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,500 that. The world does not revolve 607 00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:34,500 around them, just because you're born in the US, doesn't mean 608 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:38,300 you're entitled to have Have a Hummer one of the other cases 609 00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:40,900 I've heard for immigration coming from left-of-center 610 00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:44,900 circles is about adaptation. And there's a Justice claim here 611 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:47,500 which is that western or countries in the global North or 612 00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:50,900 responsible for emissions that, you know, but the small island 613 00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:53,100 nations of the world or Bangladesh underwater. 614 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,000 There's a responsibility to offer them status to immigrate 615 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,900 very easily to some of these wealthier countries and this is 616 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:02,400 kind of a softball for you though because you would just 617 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,800 say sure that's fine by me, right? 618 00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:06,900 Not only fine, I think it's great. 619 00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:09,300 So, you know, you know, I mean, obviously there's a lot of 620 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:11,600 people who would, rather that their Islands not sink and that 621 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,700 they not have to move, but if that's going to happen, anyway, 622 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,700 it would be terrible. Of course, of No Country would 623 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:18,000 take them. And then what are they supposed 624 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,600 to do? Become both people for the rest 625 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,200 of their lives. So, ultimately, I think the 626 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,500 world is not quite so dysfunctional that if an island 627 00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:29,500 sank that the inhabitants would be stuck as most people forever, 628 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:32,500 but then again, maybe it is that bad. 629 00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:35,300 So yeah, I think Hong Kong kept a lot of Vietnamese pho. 630 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,000 At people to stock. Well, I doubt in their hardware 631 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,600 for decades before they finally did forcible repatriation to 632 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,200 Vietnam. So yeah. 633 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,000 Then you know, that was another thing that I didn't do just for 634 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,700 lack of space in the book. It's just have a chapter in 635 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:49,700 refugees. Yeah, climate refugees. 636 00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:52,200 See, this is another important argument for open borders. 637 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,200 That this is a way where people who otherwise would be suffering 638 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,600 from the carbon emissions that are mostly produced by Rich 639 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,200 countries would be able to escape from the harm, right? 640 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,100 And I have blogged on this more generally Which is that within a 641 00:33:07,108 --> 00:33:09,400 country? If a disaster is coming, the 642 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,600 normal thing to do is to evacuate the population before 643 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,900 the disaster strikes, like so and Hurricane Katrina was on the 644 00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:19,800 way, the USA US Government, Louisiana, government, and all 645 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,400 these government, all told the population, get the hell out so 646 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,200 that the damage is reduced, right? 647 00:33:26,208 --> 00:33:29,200 This is just common sense, if it is, aster is coming. 648 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,700 Move the people out of the way so that all you lose are some 649 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:34,300 buildings instead of human lives. 650 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,000 Duh. All right, and as long as the 651 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,100 disasters happening inside of the country, this is what 652 00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:41,800 country is almost always do. However, if the disaster is 653 00:33:41,808 --> 00:33:46,100 international, if, for example, a civil war is looming in Syria. 654 00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:49,300 Then the normal reaction is quite the opposite and it's to 655 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:51,500 go and say no no no, you don't know that it's going to be a 656 00:33:51,508 --> 00:33:55,000 disaster, prove it and until you prove it then we're not going to 657 00:33:55,008 --> 00:33:59,100 let refugees in, all right? And as a result, you wind up 658 00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:02,900 keeping people stock in disaster zones, the disaster strikes and 659 00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:06,700 then often countries they are Alright well now that 100,000 660 00:34:06,700 --> 00:34:09,100 people have been massacred and there's great going on in the 661 00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:11,000 streets, the alright then? Alright fine. 662 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,100 We'll take some refugees now, right? 663 00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:17,100 And this not only means the disaster is worse, but also it's 664 00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:19,699 even a bigger burden to the receiving countries. 665 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,300 Because if you let people leave before disaster strikes, they 666 00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:24,800 can often take care of themselves. 667 00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:27,600 They arrived and the way later they still the money either, so 668 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,699 they're ready to go and hit the ground running, whereas if you 669 00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:34,000 wait for people to be absolutely desperate in refugee camps, or 670 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,300 worse before Or you say they can come, then when they arrive, 671 00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:40,600 they're generally destitute. And then, of course, this point, 672 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,699 people say, oh, well, how are we supposed to afford to take care 673 00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:44,300 of them? Like, well, maybe the thought of 674 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:46,800 that, that about that, before we wouldn't be in this situation 675 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,699 people. So, okay, if we summarize so 676 00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:53,100 far, made the argument that open borders increases, economic 677 00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:55,199 growth. We've argued that economic 678 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,900 growth is better for response to climate change and you've also 679 00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:01,500 argued that a little better in the long run. 680 00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:04,000 I don't want to oversell sure. Sure, sure, fair. 681 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,300 And then also So, from like a Justice and Equity perspective, 682 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,100 the idea of letting in people who are most affected by climate 683 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,700 change, is also an argument for open borders. 684 00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:16,700 So, what are the remaining Arguments for it? 685 00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,800 Like, it seems like you're addressing issues that the left 686 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,500 might raise with immigration and the right might raise with 687 00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:25,500 immigration. So how much of it in terms of 688 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:27,900 opposition to immigration? How much of that do you think? 689 00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:31,600 Is just because of the nature of partisan politics or how much do 690 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,500 you attribute to like these actual The differences, right? 691 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:40,000 So actually, you're my view is that a lot of the opposition is 692 00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:43,400 covertly bipartisan. So of course in terms of us 693 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,400 politics Republicans will say a lot of mean things about 694 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,600 immigrants and Democrats will try to say the opposite. 695 00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:53,200 But when you really press Democrats and say okay should we 696 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,100 have open borders? When Republicans accuse 697 00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:57,800 Democrats, have saying do you believe in open borders? 698 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,000 Almost every Democrat will say of course not, that's 699 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,800 ridiculous, right? And I actually want to endorse 700 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,900 The View that almost no person who wants to get ahead and 701 00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:09,900 politics will endorse. So I think that it's just a very 702 00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:12,100 intellectually meritorious possession and I'm not running 703 00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:14,300 for office. So I'm not afraid of saying 704 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:15,600 things that are really unpopular. 705 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,600 So we know I think we're really what's going on is there's a 706 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,900 very fundamental human xenophobia, just blaming things, 707 00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:24,900 and out groups, and having extreme pessimism about groups. 708 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,700 And it's being willing to take. Very Petty harms to natives as 709 00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:30,400 an argument in favor of doing great harm. 710 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,000 Stout groups to something that has great human appeal, right? 711 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,800 And Enough into Darwin that seems possible me that a lot of 712 00:36:38,808 --> 00:36:41,700 this has evolved. So you know what human beings 713 00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:44,900 have often tribes, and we just have a very built in tribal 714 00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:48,900 mentality. Although also say that the rise 715 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:52,000 of modern society show that we are, very capable of totally 716 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,800 redefining. Our tribe is over time, so used 717 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,100 to be tribes or 20, to 40 people and now Americans think that 718 00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:01,500 their tribe is 330 million people. 719 00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:04,800 All right. So you're able to go and By the 720 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,600 size of our tribe by 10 by factor of 10 million, right? 721 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,100 So I say the shows that even though there's something very 722 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:15,600 xenophobic built into human nature, probably still. 723 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,600 There's also an incredible flexibility as to what counts as 724 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,300 foreign. So that gives me a lot of my 725 00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:23,700 long run, hope is we'll just rethink. 726 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:26,700 What counts as being part of the group and not part of the group 727 00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:30,900 until eventually, All Humans, count, there's would help if we 728 00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:34,400 discovered Life on Mars, they say, well, all humans have good. 729 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,300 Gather, something like that or some scenario like that. 730 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,600 So in terms of other things going on. 731 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,500 So what was interesting is that, if you look in the 1980s, so 732 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:49,300 immigrants divided, very evenly between Democrats, Republicans 733 00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:51,400 the 1980s. This isn't something that is a 734 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,400 fundamental feature of us politics. 735 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,100 It's something that's Arisen in the last few decades, and I 736 00:37:56,100 --> 00:37:59,100 think a lot of it is that there's been a feedback loop, 737 00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:01,500 where Republicans, became more hostile immigrants, which made 738 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:03,300 immigrants were Hospital, Republicans, which made 739 00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:04,400 Republicans more hostile than me. 740 00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:07,900 Parents and so on is brought us to the sad state that we're at 741 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:12,000 today, but at the same time, there have been big demographic 742 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,300 realignments before. So if you were to go say 50 743 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:17,700 years ago and tell Republicans oh you're going to get a lot of 744 00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:19,900 Catholics on your side they would just laugh and say yeah 745 00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:22,400 fat chance that the totally happened. 746 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,900 So political entrepreneurs are always looking for ways to go 747 00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:32,500 and crack these demographic death Spirals and appeal to 748 00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:34,100 groups that don't currently appeal to them. 749 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,000 Yes. Takes it does take time but in 750 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,300 the long run and it is very common and it's not nearly as 751 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:43,200 hopeless as a lot of Republicans seem to think. 752 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,600 Yeah, Ross and I both spent our formative childhood years in 753 00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:51,900 Phoenix in Arizona, and it always seemed odd to me to see, 754 00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:57,000 like, in the 2000s and maybe late 1990s to see, Republicans 755 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,800 sort of spurning immigrants from Latin America, when like, their 756 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,700 social values are the same. They're, they're identical to - 757 00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:06,700 social values. I always found that very weird. 758 00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:08,800 Yeah, so were mean, to me, what's really striking? 759 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,000 Is you look at indian-american, So Young Americans from the 760 00:39:12,008 --> 00:39:14,900 country of India and you'll cease, they are now the richest 761 00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:18,100 ethnicity in America, and by many measures. 762 00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:20,500 They're also the most socially conservative at this, the 763 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:22,900 America. So, in terms of their views, you 764 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:25,000 would think that they would be a really terms of their just, 765 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,800 their whole social station. You think they would be very 766 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,500 heavily Republican and yet their democratic-republican ratios for 767 00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:34,400 21 and this is one where there's no way Republicans could. 768 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,000 We say oh well it's just a bunch of people that want to go and 769 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,000 waxed fat off the welfare state. They don't want to work the 770 00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:43,400 obviously that just doesn't make any sense for any every Indian 771 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,500 Americans. So I mean I think that really 772 00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:48,600 does leave you with. You alienated people who in 773 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,400 terms of their issue views and their position of society would 774 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,000 be your natural allies and you know, like how do you do it if 775 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,300 you would just having a bad attitude just talking to people 776 00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:02,200 and unfriendly way, right? And of course, also just 777 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,200 tolerating people in your party who do it. 778 00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:07,600 Because there's just one really mean. 779 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,200 Big mouth and your party not mentioning any names that can 780 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,600 make the whole party, look bad and Italy. 781 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,500 There's this peculiarity of us politics works really hard to 782 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:19,500 kick a person out of your party, right? 783 00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:22,400 If you go over to the UK, they kick people out of the part of 784 00:40:22,408 --> 00:40:24,500 their parties all the time, right? 785 00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:26,500 Whereas in the u.s., the Republicans couldn't even kick 786 00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:28,900 out David Duke. Now, that's right, some 787 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:30,700 Parliament. Billy, as to why this happens, 788 00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:32,700 I'm a little confused. I haven't talked to any lawyer 789 00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:36,200 on how this works, but Anyway, like that, you would think that 790 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,000 would be very important for protecting your brand. 791 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,400 We don't want to have horrible, monstrous loud, Turks represent. 792 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,000 Yell at like giving our party a bad name, Brian. 793 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,700 I'm surprised that you didn't reference The Simpsons meme that 794 00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:50,500 I've seen going around, which is the old guy in the theater and 795 00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:52,800 someone says way. No one's saying open borders? 796 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,700 Just I said open borders. Oh, yeah. 797 00:40:56,700 --> 00:40:58,100 Moment. Yeah, man. 798 00:40:58,100 --> 00:40:59,900 There you go. I'll put that in the shown as if 799 00:40:59,908 --> 00:41:00,700 I can track. That. 800 00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:03,400 That mean down. We've covered this a little bit 801 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,900 but do you think that Predictions in the book. 802 00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:09,200 Do you think what we've talked about would change the content 803 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,600 of your book at all? Do you think any of these 804 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,700 challenges posed new directions, that you might have to address 805 00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:16,900 in a future Edition or does broadly your arguments? 806 00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,300 They just they hold for this as well, right? 807 00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:23,500 So mean I do make a big efforts whenever I write a book to to 808 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,300 make it stand the test of time. I don't want to be super 809 00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:28,700 current, I don't want to talk a lot about the Scandal that 810 00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:31,700 happened that year, that won't register at all to people even 811 00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:34,400 in five or ten years much less in 50 years. 812 00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:38,600 So when I wrote them in borders, I really did try to make a lot 813 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,600 of the content Timeless course. The empirics are going to be 814 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,400 superseded by later. Empirics that hopefully will be 815 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,500 an improvement. Probably will be an improvement 816 00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:50,400 in terms of whether I'm likely to update it. 817 00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:53,400 If the publisher is willing, you know, then I would love to 818 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,900 actually do an expanded version again, minimum, I want to have 819 00:41:56,900 --> 00:41:59,000 another chapter on the environment, another chapter on 820 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,800 refugees. So there's a lot that I could, 821 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,700 that I could have added even the current length original Oh I 822 00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:06,900 thought I was going to keep it lit down to 16 hundred sixty 823 00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:10,600 pages and then my collaborator just said, oh well you know I'm 824 00:42:10,607 --> 00:42:13,500 happy to make it 200 Pages at no additional charge. 825 00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:18,700 Hello great. So that's part of the backstory 826 00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:21,000 the book but he didn't say 300 Pages. 827 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,700 No charge probably would have started to get it. 828 00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:25,200 Get it hard to be published when it gave the got to be that long 829 00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:26,900 but you know, the books been successful. 830 00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:30,200 So I really can see in 10 years coming back and doing the 831 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,500 expanded version especially if it's continues to sell and 832 00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:36,700 There's a lot of classes where people liked it. 833 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,200 And yeah, I think the issue is going to continue, right? 834 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:45,600 And again it's hard to be sure, but in my view actually is that 835 00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:47,700 things are going to slowly move in my direction. 836 00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:51,200 Although 10 years we will still have nothing like open borders 837 00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:53,700 but we just look at u.s. opinion. 838 00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:56,700 We have gone from a world where almost no one favored more 839 00:42:56,700 --> 00:42:59,300 immigration. So we are like we got public 840 00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:03,100 opinion on immigration, going back to around 1970, if you look 841 00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:06,500 at that data, Tell about the year 2000. 842 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,600 It was pretty much never the case that more than 10% of 843 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,000 people. Wanted more immigration is just 844 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,200 a debate between, keep it the same and reduce it. 845 00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:19,000 And since then, the share of the population that says, we should 846 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,200 have more has gone from under 10 to about 30 percent. 847 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,700 Okay? Now still a minority view, but 848 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,200 this is basically something where you take a view, that 849 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,200 almost nobody held and turned it into a pretty normal view, 850 00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:32,300 right? And once you have a lot of 851 00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:34,400 people saying, we should have more than you'll have me there. 852 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,300 Saying yeah. Well how much more how about a 853 00:43:37,308 --> 00:43:39,200 lot more? Why do we want to stop it at 854 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,500 all? Yeah that's very good to know 855 00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:46,200 and I look forward to that in the book One useful tool 856 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,800 conceptually that people might want to employ in the future is 857 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,000 this idea of Keyhole Solutions. So what are they and what might 858 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,700 be some for the link between the environment and immigration? 859 00:43:57,500 --> 00:44:01,900 No, so back in the year, just for context, back in the old 860 00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:06,200 days, you've seen movies about the Civil War, whatever surgery 861 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,400 was truly horrifying back in the old days there amputating. 862 00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:12,600 You might say, well didn't have anything better to do well over 863 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,100 time, we have learned and some things we've learned is let's 864 00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:18,800 try to keep sigh. Oh, that horrible side effects 865 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,300 to a minimum, let's try to reduce the collateral damage. 866 00:44:21,500 --> 00:44:26,200 And one thing you can do is to reduce the size, the incision so 867 00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:28,900 much more common Day is what's called a keyhole incisions. 868 00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:31,000 We just do a very small incision and then you, and then you 869 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,000 insert a little camera and use, tried it. 870 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,600 Try to just do the smallest harm to the patient in the process of 871 00:44:38,607 --> 00:44:43,200 helping them. All right, now, the economic 872 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,100 journalist, Tim Harford went and took this idea and said, well we 873 00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:47,800 can of the same intuition for policy. 874 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,100 So whatever, there is a social problem when we're thinking 875 00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:54,700 about designing remedies, let's think about the cheapest and 876 00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:57,700 most humane way of doing it in the same way that You that you 877 00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:01,500 we have Keyhole surgery, how about Keyhole solutions for 878 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,600 different social problems. And this is an idea that very 879 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,500 much appeals to economist's, right? 880 00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:08,300 But I'd say really to any sensible person. 881 00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:09,400 Yeah. If you're going to go and try to 882 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,400 fix a problem, try not to do a whole lot of harm. 883 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,000 And along the way, now, there's a whole field of environmental 884 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,600 economics, that's really built on this idea, right? 885 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,900 And it says, things like, well, if you want to reduce pollution, 886 00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:22,900 why not tax it? Instead of having a phone book 887 00:45:22,900 --> 00:45:24,600 regulations. Right. 888 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,000 If you want to go and reduce the amount of congestion on the 889 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,600 roads, which of course, leads to a lot of pollution, why not go 890 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,100 and have a toll on the roads that fairies by the time of day? 891 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,000 So the traffic is moving and you don't have people wasting time 892 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,500 and just pointlessly going and putting up wooten's. 893 00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:45,100 Why not do things like that? Why not go and charge People 894 00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:48,000 based upon the amount of pollution they emit rather than 895 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,100 just saying that there's a fixed fee for a car, for example. 896 00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:54,000 So, in other words, you try to design. 897 00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:56,900 I'm a policy. The targets exactly the problem 898 00:45:57,300 --> 00:45:59,300 Sonia. Presumably the problem with cars 899 00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:02,600 is not that they exist, it's that they're driven right? 900 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,600 And all cars do not pollute equally. 901 00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:06,800 So you want to figure all these things and when you're 902 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,700 designing, any pollution policy. All right, so similarly in the 903 00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:15,000 case of pollution immigration, what I would say is rather than 904 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,800 saying people can't comment would make a lot more sense to 905 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,100 think about. Well what exactly are the 906 00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:23,100 environmental harms that immigrants are going to increase 907 00:46:23,500 --> 00:46:27,900 and then Go and have special taxes that go and help you with 908 00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:31,500 this problem, right? And assembles thing would just 909 00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:33,200 be to say alright well immigrants have to pay an 910 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,400 admission fee, they have to pay extra income taxes right in that 911 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,000 would probably deal with it. Although, again just saying, 912 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,500 well, let's go and try to figure out exactly how much of 913 00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:45,900 different pollutants immigrants are emitting and then attacks 914 00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:48,300 exactly the thing. That's the problem, right? 915 00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:51,800 So, I assume that your listeners are very familiar with carbon 916 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,000 taxes. So there's that kind of thing. 917 00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:58,000 NG, right? And again, just to repeat the 918 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,800 often misunderstood economic case for these kinds of 919 00:47:00,808 --> 00:47:05,100 pollution taxes, which that a tax does two things. 920 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,300 First of all, in the short run and encourages people to do less 921 00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:12,000 of the bad thing, there's that, but it also has another 922 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,400 important long-run effect which that when you start taxing the 923 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,200 bad thing, people start trying to figure out ways to accomplish 924 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,000 the same goal without paying the tax namely by getting the same. 925 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,400 Result in a way that isn't harmful to society, right? 926 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,000 So for example, if you go and put a tax on carbon emissions 927 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,600 from Cars, well, this gives car builders in his hand and try to 928 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,700 figure out a way to make a car that doesn't moot as much. 929 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,800 But we're, it gives people a reason to take public 930 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,800 transportation word confirms a reason to actually privately 931 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,200 produce public transportation or to go and bid for existing 932 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,300 dilapidated, public transportation, make it nice, 933 00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:51,900 some people want to use it, right? 934 00:47:51,900 --> 00:47:54,400 And again, what's nice about this is often it's just Not 935 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,400 obvious, what the best way forward is and incentives. 936 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,200 Leave wide open the way of accomplishing. 937 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,600 The goal, while giving them an incentive to get it done. 938 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,100 Seems wise to me, to be conservative in that kind of 939 00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:11,000 way, not trying to do everything trying to make sure it has the 940 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,500 smallest incision speaking of which I really. 941 00:48:14,500 --> 00:48:16,900 I just go just by the way. So, you know, like Alan Blinder 942 00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:19,100 again, I mentioned in his book hard had soft Hearts. 943 00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:23,300 So he's a very famous left-wing Economist, but he has a lot of 944 00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:26,900 work in this book. On how these kinds of incentives 945 00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:29,300 are way better, both in the short and long run than 946 00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:32,500 traditional methods of pollution control, right? 947 00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:35,800 And I mean, I would just say that you like just just to get, 948 00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:38,800 like, people that are scheduled to read and say, look, someone 949 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,000 that shares my values. Nevertheless thinks that we 950 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,200 should do it in a different way, right? 951 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,600 I mean, I think that's the kind of thing that really should 952 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,200 weigh on people and again, just to realize that it's easy to go 953 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,200 and tell people exactly how they have to do it. 954 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,100 But then you are, Are losing the advantage of creativity. 955 00:48:57,100 --> 00:48:58,900 Like, you know, there are so many ways that you could 956 00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:01,800 accomplish the same thing and it gives people some flexibility on 957 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,000 how to accomplish it, then that's much better than telling, 958 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,600 just how to do it. Because that assumes that you've 959 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,500 already got it figured out. Nobody really, really does. 960 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,200 Yeah, I'm very sympathetic to that personally, and I was going 961 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,400 to say that I had recently read selfish reasons to have more 962 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,300 kids, which is a previous book of yours found very interesting 963 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,000 and you address this a little bit that some of these same 964 00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:27,700 climate or environmental rationales apply also to the 965 00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:31,700 having of children and it works. Yeah, there's a lot of debate. 966 00:49:31,700 --> 00:49:35,000 We've actually done episodes on on natal ISM and the mere fact 967 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,300 of me, mentioning it now means I'm going to receive mail about 968 00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:41,000 it and given that you are a fan of Julian Simon, you think 969 00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:42,600 humans are the ultimate resource. 970 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:43,900 They're actually problem solvers. 971 00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:47,500 They're good to have around our IP my inbox right now. 972 00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:50,000 So you think that these arguments though against 973 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,100 immigration apply even stronger against natal ISM or having 974 00:49:53,100 --> 00:49:56,400 children, So most of them most of them. 975 00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:59,100 Yeah. So I mean again I would say that 976 00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:01,200 free of from an environmental point of view, you might say 977 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,000 well allowing an immigrant at least you're just moving a 978 00:50:04,008 --> 00:50:06,300 person from one place to another, whereas having kids 979 00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:09,500 increases total population. So in that sense, you might say 980 00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:12,000 that having kids is even worse than allowing immigrants in if 981 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,600 you're really worried about the environmental effects. 982 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,500 You know, the main thing I say there is that when you, if you 983 00:50:18,500 --> 00:50:20,500 look at a human being and all you can see is the pollution, 984 00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:22,300 they're going to make you really are missing a lot. 985 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,100 Human beings do a lot of things. They do a lot of good things 986 00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:31,000 that a lot of bad things. And in my view is that the good 987 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,700 greatly outweighs the harm. So you like it for random human 988 00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:37,700 being drops dead. My reaction is not, oh good. 989 00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:39,300 Yes. While they did actually 990 00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:42,100 producing useful stuff. But they also polluted and it's 991 00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:44,400 better to have note that have the person to be dead and the 992 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:45,800 blue. Sure not exist. 993 00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:47,900 You know? Again, now logically, that could 994 00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:50,400 be true could just be the pollution is so bad that when 995 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,400 people die that's actually a good thing. 996 00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:54,800 But it is the kind of Judgment. At least you want to double 997 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,800 check and say, some really true, is it really true that people 998 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,400 are that bad? It's an idealist osition. 999 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:05,000 I am in my view is now, so when people drop dead, I still think 1000 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,700 that on balance that as a bad thing, and flipping it around 1001 00:51:08,700 --> 00:51:10,900 when people are not born. I think that's a bad thing. 1002 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,400 So, you know, minimum of course there's a person that enjoys 1003 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,500 being alive and I think that is a reasonable thing to keep in 1004 00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:20,000 mind but also in terms of what people contribute to the world, 1005 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,200 I think that this is for a large Shorty of people greatly 1006 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,300 outweighs. Whatever harm they do force. 1007 00:51:26,300 --> 00:51:28,700 Not in every case Baby, Hitler had not existed. 1008 00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:32,200 That would have been better, maybe Charles Manson but it's a 1009 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,500 random person I look at them and when and if you add up all the 1010 00:51:36,500 --> 00:51:39,400 good they do and all the bad that they do still seems to be a 1011 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,100 big net, positive doesn't mean that it's not a good idea to try 1012 00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:44,400 to figure out how to, how to make it more positive. 1013 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,900 And again, you know, things like glue, some taxes are very 1014 00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:50,000 reasonable approach. Their one of our previous guests 1015 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,600 and advisory to Nori is ramez naam. 1016 00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:56,800 Tom and ramez has a book called The Infinite resource which is 1017 00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,300 really about Innovation and Innovation comes from the 1018 00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:03,900 ability of humans to be creative and work together and produce 1019 00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:06,400 more value than they spend in producing that. 1020 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,600 And so I think that that concept fits in very well with what 1021 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:10,800 you're saying. Yeah. 1022 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,100 Absolutely. Yeah, that's the I mean, Mez 1023 00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:16,900 told us as much as he's been indebted by Julian Simon's books 1024 00:52:16,900 --> 00:52:20,100 Club ultimate resource. So yeah, this has been a running 1025 00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:21,200 theme of the show. I guess. 1026 00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:22,600 You could say we didn't be optimistic too. 1027 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,900 Brian. I think you do very well to add 1028 00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:27,800 the Nuance about various timeframes about, maybe the 1029 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,700 kuznets curve applies, just farther in the future Than 1030 00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:34,000 People typically, look, because it's come under fire for those 1031 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,600 reasons. A lot of people don't really buy 1032 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,000 that because it's curved argument these days but I wonder 1033 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,800 if it is an issue of time Horizons. 1034 00:52:40,100 --> 00:52:44,300 So, thanks for just adding your very good about adding caveats 1035 00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:46,100 or limitations to your various predictions. 1036 00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:48,000 I can see why you win. Bets is what I'm trying to say. 1037 00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:50,200 Yeah, well, that is a big part of. 1038 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:54,100 It is just don't go further. Other than you really have 1039 00:52:54,100 --> 00:52:57,700 justification to do, right? And, you know, I'm Lionel say 1040 00:52:57,700 --> 00:53:00,900 that just my personality. I can't remember time that I 1041 00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:05,500 wasn't horribly arrogant, but I'm Alisha aware of it and I do 1042 00:53:05,500 --> 00:53:10,200 try to get it under control. You like I'm not like I'm not 1043 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,300 going to say by any means that I've actually achieved it but I 1044 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,700 do listen to what I'm saying and say, look, is that at like, can 1045 00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:20,900 I actually cash that check that? I just wrote and if I can't, I 1046 00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:23,400 better say we would give me give me Check here. 1047 00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:26,500 We've got a post, ate it. So that's how I can still 1048 00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:30,400 actually pay or repay you have. I got the funds in the account. 1049 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,300 Great. Well, thank you so much for 1050 00:53:32,300 --> 00:53:35,400 joining us, Brian. If someone wanted to buy your 1051 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,900 book, what's the most efficacious way for them to do? 1052 00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:40,400 So what helps your numbers and how can people keep up with your 1053 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,200 work? Yeah, so I would say that the 1054 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,100 best way of getting the book is Amazon. 1055 00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:49,100 It's solely 1339 in paperback so it's dirt cheap for you and you 1056 00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:51,900 had Amazon Prime free delivery might sound. 1057 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,000 I say so. A cheap that I encourage people 1058 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,500 to buy it for every kid. They like I did a lot of kids 1059 00:53:56,500 --> 00:54:00,100 have actually read the book because unlike, any of my other 1060 00:54:00,100 --> 00:54:05,200 books, this book actually is enjoyable to people that are 1061 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,300 younger, right? So, you know, I gotta let you 1062 00:54:07,308 --> 00:54:08,900 know. So, Adam is the only book I've 1063 00:54:08,900 --> 00:54:10,700 ever had where my five-year-old looked over. 1064 00:54:10,700 --> 00:54:13,900 My shoulder was curious about is doing Brian has how they got 1065 00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,500 Socrates, though. You got to be careful. 1066 00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:17,900 Yeah. So yeah, we land I would say 1067 00:54:17,900 --> 00:54:19,900 like it and this is not because I've dumbed it down. 1068 00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:22,000 So I would still say that. I think the research is 1069 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:23,500 validity. The discussions. 1070 00:54:23,500 --> 00:54:27,400 Very careful very accurate, well referenced, but just by 1071 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,900 combining words and pictures, you make it more entertaining 1072 00:54:29,900 --> 00:54:32,200 and more accessible. So where's all of my other 1073 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,200 books? I tried to make it work for 1074 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,200 everyone from research, Specialists, all the way down to 1075 00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,100 go to undergraduates here. I think that I can go from 1076 00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:42,500 research, specialist all the way down to approach, a seven year 1077 00:54:42,500 --> 00:54:45,600 olds in terms of the audience. So mean of course you know, you 1078 00:54:45,607 --> 00:54:48,700 should also be a physical bookstores and like there's 1079 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,100 wherever you like my books in terms of my other stuff. 1080 00:54:52,100 --> 00:54:56,300 So you can go to be kaplan.com. That's BC a pla n.com. 1081 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,900 I also blog for econ log, usually whenever I'm writing a 1082 00:54:59,908 --> 00:55:03,000 book, I just spent a lot of time talking about what's on my mind 1083 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,500 and what part of the book that I'm working on and trying to get 1084 00:55:05,500 --> 00:55:08,800 people's reactions to I'm doing and then they'll be a link in 1085 00:55:08,808 --> 00:55:11,100 the show notes to open borders if you'd like to buy it. 1086 00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:15,400 Oh I should also say it is maybe maybe the most reference notes 1087 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,600 of any graphic novel that I've ever seen. 1088 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,400 Brian. Do you think that you can claim 1089 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,100 that title for yourself? I think I can. 1090 00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:25,400 So So Larry gopnik also does a good job, but I think I like 1091 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,500 mine or a bit denser mean he's got five volumes. 1092 00:55:28,500 --> 00:55:30,400 So maybe a few, some all five this volumes. 1093 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,700 He's got more than me but I think I've got more than anyone 1094 00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:36,300 of his volumes. Very nice. 1095 00:55:36,300 --> 00:55:37,300 Well, thank you again for being here. 1096 00:55:37,300 --> 00:55:39,200 Brian that was a lot of fun learned a lot. 1097 00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:40,600 Thank you. Thanks Greg. 1098 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,200 Thanks a lot. If you like the show please rain 1099 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,600 review us on. 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