1 00:00:00,500 --> 00:00:02,700 Hey, it's Ross from reversing climate change. 2 00:00:02,700 --> 00:00:05,400 I wanted to let you know that we have a new podcast called carbon 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,300 removal Newsroom. It's short form, its timely and 4 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:11,700 it's all about carbon removal whenever we see a good news 5 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:14,500 story about carbon removal or that should be about carbon 6 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:16,200 removal. We're going to record a short 7 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,500 episode about it with a rotating cast of guests. 8 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,700 So please subscribe to carbon removal Newsroom, check it out 9 00:00:21,700 --> 00:00:24,300 in your podcast app of choice and thank you so much for your 10 00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:27,700 support. You're listening to the 11 00:00:27,700 --> 00:00:29,800 reversing climate change podcast. 12 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,300 Cast by Nori. The world's first carbon removal 13 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:37,600 Marketplace, here are your hosts Ross, Kenyon and Christoph 14 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,700 jospeh say hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 15 00:00:42,700 --> 00:00:44,800 podcast. I am Ross Kenyan here with 16 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,900 Christa Chase pay again. No, producer, Paul, where are 17 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:49,400 you? We need you, I'm doing this 18 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:50,800 alone. I need your help. 19 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,800 Please come back. It's nice to have a someone to 20 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:55,000 watch the levels while you're doing it. 21 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,300 So you're not having to chat at the same time but I'm growing 22 00:00:58,300 --> 00:00:59,800 into this role. I think I'm doing, okay. 23 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,500 I think you are awesome, Ross is on the levels, Ross and I were 24 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:07,000 feeling a little nostalgic today because we're actually recording 25 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,300 this podcast in the library at University of Washington, and of 26 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:13,300 the many hats that Ross. Where's that Nori? 27 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:16,300 One of them is librarian. That just means that when I 28 00:01:16,308 --> 00:01:19,100 moved up to Seattle, I brought my books in the ones that even 29 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:21,300 tenuously fit. What Nori is about. 30 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,700 I just stuffed into our library cabinets. 31 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:26,000 Yeah. But you also loaned them out and 32 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,300 give me foul looks, if I return them a little bit sullied, 33 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:31,700 that's true. Alden has a book about carbon 34 00:01:31,700 --> 00:01:33,700 markets and I keep keep nagging her right. 35 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:36,700 So you do a good job at that. That's it for the bicker banter. 36 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,400 I'd like to moving on, I would like to introduce, I guess it's 37 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,900 really exciting today to have an expert in the field. 38 00:01:44,900 --> 00:01:46,900 Someone who knows what she's talking about. 39 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:50,500 Who can perhaps, teach us a little bit around carbon 40 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:53,500 accounting, because that's what we're trying to build a business 41 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:56,800 around it. It just so turns out and we get 42 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,500 particularly excited. When thinking about 43 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:02,800 opportunities, Unity is that have historically emitted carbon 44 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,500 that can potentially play a role in storing that same carbon. 45 00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:10,900 And so this episode, we'll get into a lot of the ideas around 46 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:14,700 the built environment life, cycle assessments and various 47 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:17,400 things that really can move the needle in addressing the total 48 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:18,700 amount of carbon going into the atmosphere. 49 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:22,700 So without any further Ado sitting to my left is Professor 50 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:27,300 Kate Simon and she is the Department of architecture at 51 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:32,700 the University of Washington and she also So has been a Founder 52 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:35,700 starter of the carbon leadership forum and I'm sure we'll learn 53 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:39,100 more what that is all about. But Kate, welcome to the show. 54 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:40,700 It's really great to have you on here. 55 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,700 We like to start the show with understanding the origins of how 56 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:47,900 people got to where they are today, which is sitting on the 57 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:49,700 reversing climate change podcast. 58 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,400 So how did it all get started? Oh, well, that's an interesting 59 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,100 question. So I am trained as an architect 60 00:02:57,100 --> 00:03:01,000 and structural engineer and I was The saying as such in the 61 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,200 San Francisco Bay area and I got together with a team looking to 62 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,200 try and build low carbon building. 63 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,100 So, zero carbon buildings. And in that process, we started 64 00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:15,100 by thinking that that was Zero operating a mission. 65 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:17,700 So buildings that were super energy, efficient with solar 66 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:20,100 panels. And then we started to look at 67 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:23,600 how we were going to make those buildings and started to get 68 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,000 questions about the supply chain. 69 00:03:25,300 --> 00:03:27,100 So how could you make a Sustainable Building? 70 00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:29,800 What materials were you using? Were you using concrete? 71 00:03:29,900 --> 00:03:31,700 Crete or steel or wood? And where does it come from? 72 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:34,700 And that led me to try and understand? 73 00:03:34,700 --> 00:03:37,600 What is the impact of manufacturing? 74 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,000 The materials that we use to build buildings and transporting 75 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,300 them around the world. And that led me to life cycle 76 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:47,700 assessment, which is the accounting method to understand 77 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:50,400 those impacts. I joined the University of 78 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,300 Washington about nine years ago, as a faculty member, and started 79 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:57,300 my research to try and understand and communicate that 80 00:03:57,300 --> 00:03:59,800 data more clearly and what I found. 81 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,500 Is there was a lot of interesting work to both 82 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:05,900 understand the data and also generate and make decisions from 83 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:08,300 that data. Yeah, we talked about this on a 84 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:11,400 recent episode with Jimmy Gia clean. 85 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,400 Tech entrepreneur up here in Seattle about drawing the system 86 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,100 boundaries of life cycle analyses. 87 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:19,700 Am I jumping the gun on my okay? To do this, you're not. 88 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,100 Okay, is it analyses are assessment just to call you out 89 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:25,200 there? Oh, life, cycle assessments? 90 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:27,100 Yeah, that's an LCA. Yes. 91 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:30,800 How do you draw the system boundaries we We ended up 92 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,200 talking about this essay called I pencil. 93 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,200 Should we sent your way? And there's this problem of. 94 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,400 It seems really simple to talk about how to build a pencil. 95 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,700 There's a factory in, there's a tree that goes into it, but 96 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,200 there's also the machines that cut down those trees. 97 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,100 And then what about the agriculture that went to feed 98 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:46,700 the people who cut down the tree? 99 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,300 And then the machine that made the food it's like every Act of 100 00:04:50,308 --> 00:04:52,900 consumption is in some way participating in the entire 101 00:04:52,900 --> 00:04:55,900 global economy. But if you treat an LCA like 102 00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:59,300 this, are you even able to functionally talk about? 103 00:04:59,300 --> 00:05:00,600 It does become. Possible. 104 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,200 How do you draw these system boundaries in a way that is 105 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,700 actually useful? That's a great question because 106 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,400 how the system boundary is defined will impact the results. 107 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,500 So, what do you include in your analysis and what do you exclude 108 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,600 and life cycle? Assessment is an evolving 109 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:21,900 method. So different analyses can have 110 00:05:21,900 --> 00:05:24,400 different system boundaries and then, therefore, different 111 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,300 results. So, the pencil article is great 112 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,700 and I would encourage people to read it if they're looking for. 113 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:32,600 An interesting thought expander, you know, one of the things like 114 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,400 growing, the coffee to feed the workers versus making the 115 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,600 manufacturing equipment. So there are standardized 116 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,600 methods that exist. So commonly, for example, the 117 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,200 people are assumed to exist, no matter what. 118 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,900 So the assumption is that even if you weren't cutting down 119 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:51,800 trees, you would probably still have a cup of coffee. 120 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,000 And so that the cup of coffee and the people themselves tend 121 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,500 to be outside the system boundary. 122 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:02,300 This is like additionality Is that the term that you end up 123 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:05,300 using, or is there some other term that guy would have drunk a 124 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:08,400 coffee and done some other job that had nothing to do with the 125 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,200 pencil would have happened? If any would have happened, 126 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,800 anyway, contribute it to the building, right? 127 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:15,800 But it can get. There are more challenging 128 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,000 questions like should you include the impact of making the 129 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,600 cement Kiln and divide it out over the many different years. 130 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,900 That the cement is made, so that one arguably should because it's 131 00:06:28,900 --> 00:06:31,400 the impact of making Cement. You have to make a cement Kiln 132 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,200 but sometimes when one is conducting an LCA, there are 133 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,300 different reasons why you might conduct an LCA. 134 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:42,800 So if the goal is to understand the global impact of cement 135 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,500 production, one would need to include the impact of making the 136 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,800 cement Kilns, but if the goal of doing the LCA was to compare two 137 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,300 different cement manufacturing processes who have almost the 138 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,700 same facility types or perhaps it's difficult to get that data. 139 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:03,400 One might not include That. So the system boundary or wood 140 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,700 products is challenging in terms of how far back into the forest. 141 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:09,400 Do you include, you know, did the forest exist? 142 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:13,700 Are the forest is same as that cup of coffee or are the forests 143 00:07:13,700 --> 00:07:17,100 related to the Forest Products and how do you include that? 144 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:20,600 We've thought a little bit about using Force products as 145 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,100 instances of carbon removal? If you're able to sustainably 146 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:28,100 harvest wood and build wooden buildings out of it, that could 147 00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:31,700 store carbon assuming that That force is replacing carbon that 148 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:34,800 you took out of the forest but it does seem to get a little 149 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,800 tricky in there. I think we've been able to fully 150 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,600 wrap our heads around probably system, boundary issues. 151 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,000 You think that's fair to say. Yeah, I think we can be a little 152 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,900 bit hand wavy at this moment in time because we don't have a 153 00:07:46,900 --> 00:07:50,800 live methodology for such a thing, but it brings to mind 154 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:55,400 something that I want to attribute to Klaus lackner who I 155 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,000 worked for for a number of years, who talked about 156 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,600 mobilizing carbon To help and perhaps simplify some of the 157 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,900 carbon accounting and in lcas. So he essentially says, if you 158 00:08:06,900 --> 00:08:09,200 mobilize a ton of carbon, you need to put another ton of 159 00:08:09,207 --> 00:08:12,500 carbon away because CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere 160 00:08:12,900 --> 00:08:16,600 and mobilizing carbon can come from, cutting down forests, it 161 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,300 can come from burning, fossil fuels soil, erosion, whole bunch 162 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:25,000 of natural processes but the point is, it's that Balancing 163 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,500 Act and LCA is become a useful tool. 164 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:30,300 It seems to help the carbon Accounting in These various 165 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:34,400 stages to say when you mobilize the carbon, can you reduce that 166 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,000 at some form of the process? Once you've now mobilize the 167 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,400 carbon and got that building? Are you able to track emissions 168 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,000 that say I have this Rosy? I'd view of there's a world that 169 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,700 actually wants to pay to put carbon away. 170 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,700 I don't think we're there yet. We're trying to get there. 171 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,800 But anyway, so that helps you kind of track these things that 172 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,700 want to reduce the carbon and then you obviously have all of 173 00:08:53,708 --> 00:08:55,000 these different systems boundaries. 174 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,900 So I guess I'm kind of just garbling some words to 175 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:02,500 potentially compose a question. Around the stages that things 176 00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:05,300 move through to build things. And I think let's talk about 177 00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:08,300 buildings because you're the architect and and are able to 178 00:09:08,300 --> 00:09:10,700 talk about that. We ultimately want to get to 179 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:14,400 that balancing act, right? And so, can you talk us through 180 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,000 a little bit of the stages and how lcas become applicable in 181 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,300 this context? So I'm going to start just with 182 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:25,200 a building sure as opposed to buildings or even a room if you 183 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,200 want to build. I'll just go with a building 184 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:32,100 which is easier to start with. So So, there are the impact of a 185 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:36,100 building, go all the way back. Start with material extraction, 186 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:37,600 which is often called The Cradle. 187 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:41,200 So, extracting materials from Earth and the emissions related 188 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,000 to extracting those materials and then manufacturing them. 189 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,800 So there's electricity that's used and there's often chemical 190 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,100 reactions that take place in the in the formation of new 191 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:57,100 materials and then there's transportation and construction 192 00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,600 so that phase is often called the embodied. 193 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,300 Facts are the impacts embodied in the materials of the 194 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:05,000 building. And then, there's the stages of 195 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:09,500 using a building that includes operating the building. 196 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:13,600 So, using electricity and water and heat, but they're also 197 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,600 during the use phase, there's also the impacts of repairing 198 00:10:16,700 --> 00:10:20,400 materials and maintaining those materials and then there would 199 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,200 be the end of life stage. So did you demolish the 200 00:10:23,208 --> 00:10:24,300 building? What do you do with the 201 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,600 materials at end of life? What happens to them? 202 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,700 Do they rot or do you reuse them? 203 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:31,900 And then, Then there is things that happen outside of the 204 00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:36,700 system boundary like are you of able to avoid manufacturing more 205 00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:40,900 steel because you recycle a lot of steel or how much carbon was 206 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:43,000 sequestered in the growth of wood materials. 207 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:47,200 So there are formalized lifecycle stages that are used 208 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,300 to characterize where those impacts are. 209 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,200 Interestingly, if you change from a building to buildings 210 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,900 which gets to cities and infrastructure, there is a 211 00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:59,700 constant flow of things that are built in. 212 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,900 Hushed and there's the electrical grid and so I'm 213 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:05,100 pointing out that it starts to get more complicated. 214 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,700 However, it's not necessarily essential to define the full 215 00:11:10,700 --> 00:11:15,200 complex system to take action to improve the system. 216 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,400 So our work at the carbon leadership forum is emphasizing 217 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,400 increasing awareness of Architects owners and builders 218 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,100 that the choices they make in materials matter. 219 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,300 And identifying strategies, both from a computational 220 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:37,100 perspective, the calculating the carbon but also making good 221 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:39,200 choices. So, simply speaking, you're 222 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,000 better off reusing a building than tearing it down and 223 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,400 building a new one that sounds sort of obvious or what if it's 224 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:50,100 a really clean building or like a really, really a progressive. 225 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:53,400 Excellent good Steward of its resources, building leaving tear 226 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,900 down a bad building and build a super clean dressing. 227 00:11:55,900 --> 00:11:58,100 In some cases, it would be much better to just keep the old 228 00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:01,000 building Yes. Yes. 229 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,500 Okay, if we think about a lot of the impacts are in Foundation 230 00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:08,300 Systems and the primary structure of the system. 231 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,700 So, if you can keep the existing structure and upgrade the 232 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,600 insulation or the mechanical systems, you can improve the 233 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,400 operations. That's what retrofitting is yes. 234 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:22,400 So retrofitting good, and when you're building use the 235 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,800 materials really efficiently so don't be completely driven by 236 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,100 form. So there's some choices that you 237 00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:29,800 can make about. How you build your building that 238 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,600 uses less material and then pick lower lower carbon, or carbon 239 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,500 sequestering materials. I find that. 240 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,600 I mean, first of all, love the concept of let's do things that 241 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,400 don't emit more carbon. And if that's reusing a building 242 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,900 or repurposing, it great fully on board as a New Yorker. 243 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,200 We used to live in a city where there are some rather tall 244 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,700 skyscrapers going up and I think Architects and maybe you'll 245 00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:56,800 present this will resonate with you some Architects. 246 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,500 I'm sure you can think of at least one. 247 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:01,200 I have quite large egos. They want to build the tallest 248 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,000 building and they're doing it actually because that's what 249 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,400 people want. And so there's this kind of 250 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,900 dirty secret is that when you build really tall buildings, 251 00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:12,500 that's going to release a lot of carbon and the energy that the 252 00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:15,000 building consumes and the various things that go into that 253 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,400 input. So there's this pressure, I 254 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,500 think where you say for matters but think about the carbon. 255 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,700 I just curious your perspective on when form is really driven by 256 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,500 Egos and I want to live on the 120th floor and these, you know, 257 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,600 And all the guys I mean in the next decade in New York City 258 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,900 we're going to see a number of really tall buildings which from 259 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:36,900 a life cycle. I think look pretty poor. 260 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:41,100 And so I'm curious to understand some of your insight into the 261 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:46,000 forces that are both retrofitting old buildings and 262 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,700 what you're up against in some of the new gaudy buildings that 263 00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:50,500 aren't all that good. Oh, you're trying to get 264 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:52,000 political on me now. You little bit? 265 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,700 Yeah. I want to if I want to get 266 00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:55,600 question. Yes, spicy spicy, dramatic 267 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,200 question. Well I'm going to pull a good 268 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,600 academic and just be kind of Neutral in my response because 269 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,600 it all depends. So surely, it's not the best use 270 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,100 of our resources for individual people to have multiple large 271 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:11,700 homes that sit on used. So, if you're going to talk 272 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:14,500 about what would be our best action, it would not be billed. 273 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:16,300 Extra homes for super wealthy people. 274 00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:20,800 While rest of other people are not in homes, there are studies 275 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,100 that compare relative height and the carbon impacts of making 276 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:29,200 them and then the carbon impacts of operating them and People 277 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,800 come to position statements of the ideal density of 278 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,500 neighborhoods related to reducing Transportation because 279 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:37,700 it's also not so great to spread everybody out. 280 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:40,000 Really large distances. So there's a, there's a 281 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,600 trade-off there. I think probably the more 282 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,400 pressing question is the developing world and the amount 283 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,300 of construction that's going to be happening in China India and 284 00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:53,900 Asia, broadly, over the next 30 years. 285 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:57,500 And that construction is important from an equity 286 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:00,700 perspective. Yet the consumption of material 287 00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:04,100 resources is significant. I'm trying to remember my direct 288 00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:06,800 quote, so it's something like we're going to be building the 289 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,100 equivalent of a Manhattan every 35 days. 290 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,200 I'll do I'll say it, if you didn't, because Andrew Himes 291 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,900 drop that same nugget on his episode of the pot. 292 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:16,400 So we might not have the exact date. 293 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,300 It might be 32 and it might be 37, but you'll take it up with 294 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:20,400 Andrew. You guys can do. 295 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,500 Yeah, I went out for the next 30 Years, 30 years and those 296 00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:28,600 buildings need to be material efficient, but they are also a 297 00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:32,100 An opportunity to be carbon sinks if we can figure out how 298 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:36,300 to grow aggregate cost effectively from smokestacks, 299 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:40,800 then we could be sticking carbon into the concrete foundations, 300 00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:44,100 like the aggregate that goes into the making of concrete. 301 00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:47,000 Oh yeah, Aggregates just rock. Sorry, that's the technical term 302 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,100 for rock or sand, or play extra extra dumb here today. 303 00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:51,700 Yeah, no, no, it's good. Good one. 304 00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:57,000 So we're actually short of good rocks and sand so it might seem 305 00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:02,500 crazy but In place, you know, Hawaii is now importing sand and 306 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:05,400 the punch line is 0. And then, punch line is if we 307 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,100 can stick carbon in sand, just sound, like a great setup for a 308 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,000 joke. Oh, I know, I'm not actually 309 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,500 funny. You're just, you're seriously. 310 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:17,000 I don't actually have jokes. It's the, you could pull this up 311 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,700 beforehand. Okay, thank you. 312 00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:20,200 Thank you. I'm embarrassed now. 313 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,600 No. Ok, so Hawaii is importing sand 314 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,400 because they can't make concrete with them. 315 00:16:25,408 --> 00:16:26,700 Out of saying that they have their right? 316 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:28,600 They need sand and gravel of a certain quality. 317 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:30,900 You that you don't want to dredge all the beaches of Hawaii 318 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:32,200 to use. Yeah. 319 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:34,500 Where do you get it? Where is this hand coming from? 320 00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:37,400 Well, I know where it's coming from here. 321 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,300 Their aggregate mines in Washington state and they're 322 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:44,100 also aggregate that comes from British Columbia and that's like 323 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:47,900 super high quality Canadian Rock super strong. 324 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,600 How does it start storing carbon? 325 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,200 Do they treat it in some new way or standard rock is not actively 326 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,600 storing carbon, but there are emerging technologies that, 327 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,200 okay? Now I'm outside my expertise, 328 00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:03,900 they do something so they can capture the carbon that comes 329 00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:06,900 out of the smokestack. So concentrated carbon and grow, 330 00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:11,500 little bits of sand or direct air capture mechanisms as a 331 00:17:11,508 --> 00:17:14,400 potential. So imagine what looks like a 332 00:17:14,408 --> 00:17:15,599 giant. What I've seen looked like a 333 00:17:15,608 --> 00:17:19,300 giant air conditioner. Some sort that was spitting 334 00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:20,900 stuff out. You probably know more about 335 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:22,400 this than I do. Yeah, I think that's that's 336 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,599 Kristoff's background. He does a lot about that, that's 337 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:28,000 coming at some point here. And so, you're saying that 338 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,500 buildings Be able to concrete. I'm not sure how much 339 00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:34,400 responsibility that industry has for climate change but I think 340 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,300 it's a double-digit percentage of man-made greenhouse gases. 341 00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:42,300 Yes, yes, depends on which system boundary you draw and 342 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:46,300 really close to 10% from cement and concrete production and 343 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,200 cement in concrete are really useful materials. 344 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,700 So it's a interesting trade-off. High-impact in high utility. 345 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,800 Sure, we wouldn't want to give up concrete, but over time, 346 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,300 you're saying that buildings will be able to to, I don't know 347 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:02,600 if they'll be able to offset the entire amount of the emissions 348 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,800 from their concrete, or just make it go down a lot or could 349 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,600 even become truly carbon - that's our goal. 350 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,700 So, as a group, we used to be modest in our Ambitions and say 351 00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:14,500 we just want to reduce embodied carbon. 352 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,500 But now we want the built environment to be a carbon sink 353 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,500 and it seems plausible just like going to the Moon to seemed 354 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:26,200 plausible like hard and needs a lot of work. 355 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,500 But plausible, yeah, we ground them. 356 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,600 Person climate change a podcast. So we're liable to run our 357 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,700 mouths about big goals as much as anyone. 358 00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:37,200 So I hope that works were very excited about Aggregates in 359 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,200 concrete generally and we're kind of counting on you. 360 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,700 So yeah, keep it up. I want to go back to you 361 00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:46,900 mentioned the carbon leadership forum and talking about actual 362 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:49,600 practical uses for lcas. So can you just give some 363 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,700 example? I mean, I love the goal, the 364 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:55,100 ambition long-term were totally aligned and on the same team. 365 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:58,100 We want buildings to be net. Carbon sinks. 366 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,200 But they're not there yet, but LCA still have usefulness and 367 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,500 so, can you for our listeners, kind of explain why someone 368 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:09,100 might want to use an LCA today and how how they're being used, 369 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:12,500 okay, in the building industry, there's really two scales of 370 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:15,600 lcas that are taking place. One is at a product. 371 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,900 So, a product specific LCA is conducted and can report the 372 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:25,400 results in an environmental product declaration and CPD epds 373 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:28,500 are sort of like nutrition labels in that that you can. 374 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,000 Any PD and have a sense of the carbon emissions for a specific 375 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,700 product. The US Green Building Council 376 00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:37,400 and other Green Building programs gives credits so you 377 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,500 can get credits if you use products with epds and that 378 00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:43,900 that's really about disclosure. So this is new as a practice 379 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:47,000 that a manufacturer would disclose the carbon and other 380 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,800 environmental impacts of their manufacturing, so it's not 381 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,700 across the industry. So at the first stage we're 382 00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:56,600 really needing to get towards transparency and then then there 383 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,600 is the look towards Improvement and And so then one could 384 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,100 conduct what's called a whole building LCA. 385 00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:05,300 But frankly, it's really a part of a whole building else. 386 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,400 The a usually, so typically, people are analyzing the big 387 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,800 hitters of the structural system, the beams, and the 388 00:20:10,808 --> 00:20:15,500 columns, and the exterior walls, the windows and insulation, and 389 00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:18,700 things like that. It's the steel is that the big, 390 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,700 big, harmful 10. Now, you're trying, another 391 00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:25,000 political comment, yeah, what kind of put you somewhere? 392 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,400 We're going to dig yourself out what's bad about building do. 393 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,300 It's like the big what's bad about building buildings as we 394 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,900 use a lot of material and materials. 395 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,600 Tend to have high impact, especially the materials that 396 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,900 require a fair amount of energy to process. 397 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:42,700 That's like that's concrete. That's steel. 398 00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:44,200 That's glass. That's insulation. 399 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,500 That's aluminum Plastics. I'm still not entirely clear 400 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,600 what insulation is but I've been made quite itchy and my 401 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,500 Grandma's Attic. Once you were that kid, yeah, 402 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,400 like it's gotten. Candy is so cool. 403 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:02,500 Yeah, no, that's not smart. It was was not enough. 404 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:05,600 Well, I'm very glad that you did not die from that experience, so 405 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,300 that we could record this podcast. 406 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,400 I also am glad because I want to play this game that we are going 407 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,600 to try out for the very first time. 408 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:20,900 It's called good LCA, bad LCA, so I'll say good LCA, and then, 409 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:23,800 Kate will finish my sentence. Yeah, and what I really 410 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,400 appreciate is that you didn't tell me this ahead of time, so 411 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,600 it's totally totally Sighs no prep. 412 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,800 Okay, here we go. A good LCA is one that defines 413 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:40,000 the system boundary about LCA is one that doesn't tell you 414 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,400 anything about their analysis method. 415 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:48,500 Just the result, a good LCA is one that uses consistent data 416 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:54,000 about LCA is One, that declares. It's better than everybody else 417 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,000 without being third-party reviewed. 418 00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:57,600 Okay. Keep the politics out of this 419 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,000 gate. We gonna tone it down it down. 420 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:05,000 Okay, you've been warned more than once. 421 00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:10,300 Okay. A bad LCA is one that declare 422 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:14,300 why you want to do it the goal. So I want to do an LCA because I 423 00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:18,500 want to know what's the better solution but then you analyze 424 00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:22,700 something, totally different. Like I just reviewed one that I 425 00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:25,700 thought was bad. So somebody was comparing the 426 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:29,400 transportation distances for using different cement 427 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,600 alternates and concrete and they highlighted the differences in 428 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:37,900 ecotoxicity of transportation and ignored the differences in 429 00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:39,800 carbon impact of the concrete mix. 430 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,200 So they picked what in the end is low, significant impact 431 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,900 differences and not prioritizing High significant impacts? 432 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,300 Yeah, that's a good. I'm not opposed to ecotoxicity. 433 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:53,200 It's just that the ecotoxicity Impacts of transporting fly. 434 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,900 Ash is not the biggest problem on the planet. 435 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,700 What is ecotoxicity and what exactly is that? 436 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,600 It's a measure of the toxic emissions within the 437 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,100 environment. I don't like that question on 438 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:09,200 that that's basically it's an environmental impact category. 439 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,600 That's not commonly used because there is not as broad of a 440 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,800 global consensus on the relevance of the reporting to 441 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,600 the actual change in environmental health. 442 00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,600 Okay. I understand so people pretty 443 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,600 much agree with lcas that carbon dioxide and greenhouse gases. 444 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,000 We need to be watching for those but then there are other types 445 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,400 of chemicals that there's more disagreement about or their 446 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,800 importance of, so ozone, depletion super important. 447 00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:42,300 However, there's been policy to reduce the ozone depleting 448 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,300 chemical emissions and so therefore making choices based 449 00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,600 on how much ozone depleting emissions are taking place are 450 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,800 not very relevant because they're all super small right 451 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,200 now. Mmm. 452 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:55,600 Okay, understood this is a hard game Christoph. 453 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,300 Yeah should be ended or do you have it one more round in you? 454 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:02,600 Let's let's try it. This is our final round of okay. 455 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:09,500 A good LCA follows ISO standards and reports goal and scope and 456 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:13,500 information. I think I'm repeating myself but 457 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:18,400 because lcas can be different based on what you include and 458 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,000 how you analyze it. It can't be a good LCA unless 459 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,000 you tell people how you did it. Yeah, I think if there's one 460 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,500 take-home point you decide to store, really anyone who's 461 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,000 making any kind of like declaration in any kind of 462 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,400 estimation need to put your assumptions up front, so that 463 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,900 someone else can come along and replicate that same thing. 464 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:40,100 That's like the basic tenets of science. 465 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:44,500 It is yes, thank you. Yeah, so do that if you're doing 466 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:48,500 LCS, that sounds good. I want to get into the various 467 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,700 Scopes and various other things that were referenced. 468 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:53,500 Or do you really want me to do about else? 469 00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:55,600 I think we're good. I think she's, I think she's got 470 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:56,900 it. Yeah, especially since I keep 471 00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:59,900 repeating myself. Like if you are repeating 472 00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:01,200 yourself. Also, if you're listening to 473 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,400 this podcast it's not as easy as it sounds to be be witty and on 474 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,100 it hunt for stuff and I constantly are putting her foot 475 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,600 in the mouth and we listened back to them later and say oops. 476 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:11,600 So. Yeah. 477 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,900 What could impact the the last comment a bit about the scope 478 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,600 and well, for example, one could compare two different buildings 479 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:26,000 and if you just said this building is the lowest impact 480 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,800 building And you didn't say what was included, sometimes studies, 481 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,500 for example, ignore the entire Foundation system. 482 00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:36,600 Because they don't have data on it. 483 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,000 So if you don't have the foundation system, there's 484 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,100 limits to what kind of conclusions you could draw. 485 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,200 So it looks cleaner than it might otherwise because you just 486 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,800 don't include everything. So this seems like a real 487 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,600 challenge. That's facing the construction 488 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,800 industry. And part of your work has been 489 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,400 to develop tools to help them face these challenges around 490 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,400 standardization and creating estimations. 491 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,300 That take a whole look at the building, which is with the e. 492 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,000 EC3, which is the embodied carbon construction construction 493 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,500 calculator, the EC3 calculator, decody, call it Callie and I 494 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:18,500 kind of like ISO standards where ISO is international standards 495 00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:21,100 organization, but you just say standards again because it's one 496 00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:23,700 of those things that we call it the EC3 tools. 497 00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:24,500 Okay. I don't quite sound. 498 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:28,400 So silly, got it, got it. Okay, and we love the EC3 tool 499 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,700 that obviously has been a broad stakeholder development, where 500 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:35,400 you have people and and to do Which are working in the 501 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,600 construction industry have architects who can come 502 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,500 together. I love that. 503 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:42,700 It seems to State its assumptions up front so you 504 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,100 actually know how those calculations are made. 505 00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:47,700 But can you talk a little bit about how the EC3 tool, 506 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:51,000 addresses, some of these challenges in not full lifecycle 507 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,400 accounting? Yeah, so first off the EC3 tool 508 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,500 uses LCA data. So it uses those environmental 509 00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:02,300 product declarations that report materials and is designed to 510 00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:06,700 help design construction. And owner teams differentiate 511 00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:09,100 between materials up the supply chain. 512 00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:13,400 It is not a tool at the present state that could conduct a whole 513 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,400 building lifecycle assessment. So it's being really explicit 514 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,300 that it's a brown product procurement. 515 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,000 So I know I want to buy steel or I want to buy reinforcing steel, 516 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,900 what are my choices and how could I make those choices? 517 00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:26,900 So we're in the phase, one of that project. 518 00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,500 So we've got some Structural Engineers piloting it, and we're 519 00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:31,900 just about to start with some general contractors piloting, 520 00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:36,600 it, the main objective of this Project is to try to make the 521 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,600 complexity that we're talking about simpler for design and 522 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,700 construction teams to act upon. So we're working with sea-change 523 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:47,700 Labs, who's doing the technological development, all 524 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:50,600 of the work of both user interface and data management. 525 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,600 That's super exciting. Because that's not my area of 526 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,100 expertise, and our job, at the University of Washington is both 527 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,400 to facilitate the dialogue, across different industry 528 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,600 groups, and then helped establish what that transparent 529 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,300 data analysis. This is, yeah, I imagine if you 530 00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:08,800 were in the construction industry and even if it was a 531 00:28:08,808 --> 00:28:12,300 big priority of yours to build buildings, in the most 532 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,000 ecological fashion possible, the amount of information that's 533 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,900 necessary once the scope is Broad enough is really quite 534 00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:19,600 challenging. I think. 535 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,500 Even if you had the right intentions, your job might be 536 00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:27,100 stymied just by a lack of centralized information and it's 537 00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:30,400 the world economy generally. Yeah I mean and in some ways the 538 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,000 first step of what we're doing is quite simple and that we're 539 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,100 collecting what data. Enabling it to be sorted and 540 00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:40,500 evaluating the data to assess whether or not it's comparable, 541 00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:44,700 and as an intermediate step. So, I mean, that that really is 542 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:48,900 right now, if I'm an architect and engineer and owner, I 543 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:52,000 wouldn't even know what are the possible ranges. 544 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,100 So, you know, what is the low-carbon concrete that one can 545 00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:59,200 get in Seattle for Architects on? 546 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,500 Go back to Kristoff's comment about the desire to build bigger 547 00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:05,900 and bigger buildings, and I don't know, too many Architects. 548 00:29:05,900 --> 00:29:09,800 I'm just if your ego is bruised, by us saying, your ego is Big. 549 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:12,100 Very sorry. You can write to us, will issue 550 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:14,700 a formal apology to the international Society of 551 00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:17,400 Architects for whatever Professional Standards body 552 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,400 thing is? Yeah, is there a tendency or a 553 00:29:20,408 --> 00:29:22,000 race? I would imagine if I Was An 554 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,900 Architect, these days, I would be trying to build the cleanest 555 00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:28,800 most environmental building possible. 556 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,600 I'm sure. You know, just the size of the 557 00:29:30,608 --> 00:29:32,900 building is no longer the main metric that people are rushing 558 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:35,300 for. They also wanted to be Peter and 559 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,000 being environmentally sound. Is that a trend? 560 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,700 That's happening. So, I have two different 561 00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:41,900 responses that I want to give to you. 562 00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:44,500 So first, I'll talk about the trend within the architecture 563 00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:48,600 and engineering professions. So there is a noticeable trend 564 00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:53,300 of understanding, the interconnected complexities of 565 00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:56,000 the environmental impact of building from operating and 566 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,000 building them. The Pacific Northwest is sort of 567 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,500 known as a hub of embodied carbon, but I would extend that 568 00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:05,000 all the way to the West. So the West Ghost. 569 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,900 There is a lot of understanding and interest around that. 570 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:11,500 I'm going to go back a little bit to the ego because it is not 571 00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:15,600 just the ego of the architect. And in fact, the architect in 572 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,400 many cases in almost all cases is hired by somebody else. 573 00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:23,400 And so the choice of an egotistical architect is usually 574 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,100 linked to the choice of an egotistical client. 575 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:29,700 The clients are the ones that make the primary Direction and 576 00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:33,400 decision-making like a giant real estate magnate naming no 577 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,200 names. I don't know. 578 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,400 He won after no no no we and but you know and companies have 579 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,400 desires to make buildings that are notable and stunning that 580 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,700 might not be just about ego per se. 581 00:30:45,700 --> 00:30:51,200 So one of the interesting issues is to figure out what are the 582 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,800 no-cost options. The best practices that one can 583 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,000 Implement within any type of building from a low-income 584 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,400 housing to a high-rise Towers. So that you know, there are some 585 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,900 fundamental Apple's about getting 20 operating energy. 586 00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:10,100 All of our buildings, should be there by 2030. 587 00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:12,800 All of our new buildings, and we need to figure out Pathways. 588 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,200 So, all of our buildings can get to zero, carbon by 2050, if I 589 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,500 wanted to show off to my neighbors and I had enough money 590 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:22,600 to buy a house and got enough money to build a house. 591 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,100 I think if I wanted to show off the best way to do, it would be 592 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,500 make one of these houses. That is, is living. 593 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:31,800 It has a green roof on it. It's maximizes. 594 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,200 Take advantage of the sun has to have house passive. - yes. 595 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,300 Is that the best way to show off if you're rich and you want to 596 00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:41,200 show that you care. So, if I'm talking to the rich 597 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,200 people showing they want to care that are in your audience. 598 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,700 Is that sort of what I'm hearing? 599 00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:46,000 You say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 600 00:31:46,008 --> 00:31:46,900 Give me some advice. Yeah. 601 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:48,500 And let me in the future. When I want to do this. 602 00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:53,000 Well, you know, yes, you should be making plans to do that. 603 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,400 So you probably in the future we'll be doing that. 604 00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:59,500 So you or any person who owns large amounts of real estate, it 605 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:02,600 might be difficult to radically change what you're doing today 606 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,200 but you should be having a strategy Gigi and plan of how 607 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,800 that's going to be implemented over time. 608 00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:09,500 But keep in mind, listeners, that you need to make sure that 609 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,400 you could, you just stay in the house that you're in. 610 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,700 Now, it might be worse to build that passive house in my 611 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:17,700 learning, it might actually be if I might actually be better. 612 00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:20,300 So it's, you know, if you're going to tear down the house at 613 00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:24,500 one location, you're probably better off retrofitting. 614 00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:27,800 It and adding solar panels at some point though is there 615 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:36,000 enough and maybe appreciating your 1995 kitchen, Or putting 616 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,000 carbon storing counters in which don't exist. 617 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,600 Quite yet, know that I'd like marble and granite. 618 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,400 No one has figured out some other material for that. 619 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,200 Yeah, I give something more important to say than 620 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,500 countertops. Probably know. 621 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:50,800 I like the guests to sort of prime the questions they want to 622 00:32:50,808 --> 00:32:53,600 be asked, and I think you're going there a little bit Kate. 623 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:59,400 When you say carbon sequestering materials in buildings or the 624 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,100 built environment, so, talk to us a little bit. 625 00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:04,700 About that. What are some of the challenges 626 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:08,900 and opportunities for storing carbon in the built environment? 627 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:11,500 And maybe just we can start with the countertop but I'm sure 628 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:13,900 there's more yes. Okay. 629 00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:17,200 So the opportunity is huge, there's a large mass of 630 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,800 materials that are used in buildings. 631 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,700 So if you think of carbon just as a chemical that has mass that 632 00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:26,100 we need to stick in things if we can figure out how to make 633 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,200 useful materials from that carbon, there's a lot of 634 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,500 opportunity, you know, not just the structural system but the 635 00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,400 table that We've got here Furniture, the Furnishings all 636 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,600 along. So there are manufacturers that 637 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,700 are setting targets to having carbon neutral products. 638 00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:44,700 Interface carpet is one that they've got a plans of figuring 639 00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:47,900 out how they can sequester materials reuse, materials 640 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,700 reduce the carbon intensity of their energy sources. 641 00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:55,700 So there are conventional materials like carpet and then 642 00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:58,600 there are new materials that might be a new use of carbon 643 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,400 fiber, right? That once we figured out how to 644 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,300 do that in a cost-effective way, we might be having carbon Our 645 00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:07,500 tables with buildings that are bigger than single-family homes. 646 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:10,600 I've seen there's some pretty big buildings in Seattle that 647 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,000 use wood as their structure. Yes, they're beautiful. 648 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,600 Something, the the beams are exposed and they're, they're 649 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,199 really lovely more so than if it was just an exposed steel beam. 650 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,400 If you're in some cool Warehouse e kind of space, like many of 651 00:34:22,408 --> 00:34:24,800 the co-working spaces that I've been in, has have those kind of 652 00:34:24,808 --> 00:34:26,400 things? Why is that coming back? 653 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,400 Why is would as a structural support? 654 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,900 Now either allowed was a disallowed did steal just steal 655 00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:34,699 the show for a while. And now, what is back what's 656 00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:37,900 happening? That could be a whole podcast in 657 00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:40,400 itself is it is just opposite juicy topic. 658 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,900 We should just a cross laminated Timber podcast. 659 00:34:43,699 --> 00:34:49,000 So some of it has to do with new manufacturing, techniques making 660 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,000 large pieces of wood out of smaller pieces. 661 00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:55,400 Some of that is a renewed interest in the material. 662 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,500 So enthused people who feel that, it's beautiful and want to 663 00:34:58,508 --> 00:35:00,900 build with it. There have been recent changes 664 00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:03,500 to the building code which allow people to build taller buildings 665 00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:05,600 out of wood. There was a lot of debate about 666 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,900 that. Can catch fire easier than steel 667 00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:11,900 and concrete, although steel and concrete also have issues with 668 00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:13,800 fire. So you have to fireproof steel 669 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,900 and and concrete also. So it is in some ways. 670 00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:23,000 It's a trend that construction Crews have expertise in 671 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,100 different methods. So if you look at some of the 672 00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:27,200 old buildings in Seattle, they're all built out of heavy 673 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,600 Timber, big large pieces of wood, partly because that was 674 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,900 what was available. We had big trees and lots of 675 00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:35,300 people who knew how to build out of wood and at that point in 676 00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:38,000 time, you had to ship Up the steel and the concrete in from 677 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,000 Chicago or the East Coast. So at that time we had a 678 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,000 Workforce that and material resources. 679 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,300 That was all wood. There's a lot of potential for 680 00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:51,700 sustainably managed forests to use wood as a carbon storing 681 00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:53,900 material. But you also have to use wood 682 00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:57,300 efficiently in order for it to be the best use of the material. 683 00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:01,300 So carbon is stored in wood but carbon is also emitted in 684 00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:06,000 manufacturing wood. And so using more wood in 685 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,500 Building is not the best solution, even though, more 686 00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:12,200 carbon would be stored in that building because you're better 687 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,500 off using that more wood and building more buildings. 688 00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:17,900 I'm sorry. I'm so you have a meal ticket 689 00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:19,200 forever because it sounds like this L. 690 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,900 See a game is quite difficult. There's a lot of nuance involves 691 00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:26,700 sounds like this EC3 tool has future uses to help identify 692 00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:28,300 that exact quandary. Yes. 693 00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:30,800 And then really, and then interestingly going up then all 694 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,500 into the supply chain of forests and then you start to get to 695 00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:36,800 some of I think what would probably be the The issues that 696 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,100 you would be talking about is, how does Forest management play 697 00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:44,200 out in a benefit as a carbon benefit or not and how do Forest 698 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,500 Products be able to recognize that Forest management benefit? 699 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,000 One of the really interesting challenges is that products like 700 00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:56,000 a two-by-four tend to be graded, just on its strength, not on the 701 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,000 carbon benefit of the whole supply chain. 702 00:36:58,300 --> 00:37:00,300 Yeah, speaking of forest management. 703 00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:04,300 I know this podcast will air sometime in the winter, which is 704 00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:07,100 not Fire season. Weird to say that. 705 00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,400 We now have fire season, but that's a bang. 706 00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:13,300 But one of my favorite ideas I heard about Forest management 707 00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:16,600 was actually the harvesting of wood that is at risk of burning 708 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,900 or maybe already dead. And basically converting that 709 00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:23,700 into biochar and turning that biochar into a solid material 710 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:26,200 that could be carbon that somehow ends up in the built 711 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,100 environment. Any reactions to that idea? 712 00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:31,700 I haven't heard that one, but that's interesting. 713 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:35,900 Somebody also just recently pointed out that the forest 714 00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:39,700 Fires, end up, making that biochar and then the wood hangs 715 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:43,200 out in the forest for a while. The state of Washington owns a 716 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,400 lot of and manages a lot of the forests and if the state can 717 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,500 figure out ways to help manage the forests well and get 718 00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:55,400 building Wood Products out of it, that would be a good win-win 719 00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:57,800 right? Can we reduce fires, help our 720 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,200 air quality manage force and buildings for carbon. 721 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,900 That would be great. So good potential and heard that 722 00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:08,600 one, that sounds pretty You're saying though we should start 723 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,300 wrapping it up. Is there anything else we should 724 00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:12,700 cover? We certainly have covered a lot 725 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,500 of ground. I guess to put a question your 726 00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:18,900 way K. If someone wants to get more 727 00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:24,700 involved in the LCA space or start thinking about carbon and 728 00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:26,300 buildings where should they begin? 729 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,400 Probably the best place would be to join the embodied carbon 730 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,700 Network. So the embodied carbon network 731 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:35,500 is supported by the carbon leadership Forum but it's an 732 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:38,000 open access. Access communication Community. 733 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,800 Now we've got about 300 people from around the world. 734 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,300 These would be the embodied carbon nerds, I'll call them us. 735 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,500 I'll call us all nerds and body carbon aficionados and it's a 736 00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:50,000 place where people are sharing news and asking questions. 737 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,100 So it would also we also create our own series of webinars 738 00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:56,500 around embodied carbon in the built environment. 739 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,200 It's a place where people are. If you ask a question within 24 740 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,800 hours, you get a bunch of people answering giving you different 741 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,400 answers. The question that would be the 742 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,500 first place I would go, and then The carbon leadership Forum does 743 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:10,900 have some resources online and there's some other other 744 00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:14,200 organizations architecture 2030 has a carbon smart material 745 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,800 palette. Cool. 746 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,000 Yeah, I think you may have just forced our hand and Nori is 747 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,300 going to join that Network. That sounds like an amazing 748 00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:23,400 Community. Yeah. 749 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,600 And so hopefully maybe some of our listeners will want to join 750 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,100 and we'll see you in there as well. 751 00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,400 Yes, thanks for being with us, Kate. 752 00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:34,400 And then we recently sent out via the Nori newsletter podcast 753 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,900 survey. And we heard that People very 754 00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:40,400 much wanted, an outro, sometimes we end abruptly, so, I'm going 755 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,000 to keep talking and then gradually Fade Out.