Coming up, I've never seen you do Indian stuff.
Yeah, weird, didn't it? Yeah, I've never seen you do.
Yeah, yeah. Can you imagine?
Do you think I should work it into my routine?
Every time I introduce to people they say who was your beautiful
friend? Who do you introduce me to?
You ain't got no friends. But what's your opinion of a
woman with a voice? Should they have them?
I already have my voice and I use it.
So I guess the real question is, what do you think about women
with voices? Yeah, it wouldn't be a very good
episode if you didn't have a voice on this, so you had to say
something. We are the Porsches.
We are the Ferraris. Somebody said to me like.
Oh God, Paul, that's do you know what you just saying that made
me think you're the kind of guy who turns around to a girl and
says I am the prize. Paul Chowdhry's Don't Ask Me
That is brought to you by Mrs. Ellswood.
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Misses Elswood. So I'm here with superstar,
comedian, entrepreneur, actress, singer, dancer.
Entrepreneur. Singer.
A woman of many talents, Michelle De Swartz, a very good
friend of mine. I've known her for a number of
years. And what an honour and a
privilege it is to have you on the podcast.
Don't ask me that. Obviously, Michelle, I'm not
going to ask you things that you don't want to be asked.
That's the thing. Yeah, don't know.
Is there anything I can't ask you?
Yeah. What?
I mean, there's a few things like give it a go and I'll tell
you. Like is, is there anything about
your heritage? No, I can't.
Ask you No. You can ask me anything about
MyHeritage. I can ask you heritage
modelling. Yeah, to a point.
Modelling anything off limits. I mean, why don't you ask and I
will tell you if you've got something in mind.
I'm I'm not sensing some bit of hostility.
It's not hostility, it's just frustration because you don't
know what it is. You're sort of it's like asking
me what is the size of air? Do you know what I mean?
Is there anything that you want to discuss about AIR?
No, no, other than this dead air that is happening between us.
Well, you can hear the pipes in this studio, Yeah.
What do you think of the studio? I think it is minimal, but like
this is, you know, there's Pickles, there's pictures of
you. I imagine this is what your
house is like. This is just.
Just all your favorite things, including pictures of yourself.
Well, around my house I've got plaques of the Apollo and
Wembley and. I fucking bet you have.
I bet you have. And then in between them, just
full length mirrors. Yeah, yeah.
And and Michelle, we've known each other for a number of years
now. We have.
Since you were a young, young Jewish girl from northwest
London. Yeah, I guess.
I mean, I'm not from there, but all right.
I've known you for such a long time and I remember you on the
circuit and you came up to me. Chill out, Paul.
I've been watching the comedy. I like what you do.
How can I do that? Yeah, I did.
That's exactly what I said. I saw you and I was just like,
Oh my God, Paul, I want to be like you one day.
I'm your biggest fan. If you got any tips that you can
tell me about the industry. Yeah, and what did I, what did I
say to you at the? Time, well, it didn't happen,
but Oh yeah, yeah. But you know what?
Actually, when I first started you was really nice because I
was like very fresh and you and you was like, you're good.
You know, I remember I was saying some outlandish shit on
stage and he was like, wow, OK. You know, even though what I
liked about you was your originality and your perspective
and you had a voice and your voice was original on it didn't
matter. You didn't get any laughs.
I wasn't. I wasn't concerned with the but.
But you know what? That's what you need.
A more experienced comic. Like I can see that now when I
see someone new coming up. They might not be getting the
laughs, but I'm like, yeah, but it's there.
You know, there'll be someone else who's been doing it the
same amount of time as them, and they'll be getting big laughs.
And you're like, I don't know how sustainable this is exactly.
So I know what you mean when you see someone and you're like, oh,
that person is authentically them.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like you that you have
your a persona, which is. And I like the fact that
whenever I see you, you're experimenting with something and
you're like, that was like, you're one of the most honest
people I've met in my life because you're very upfront and
you're very direct about your approach to the arts as I put a
stand up and the arts that you have worked in in previous
lives. But when you've gone on stage
and things haven't worked and I've seen you kill, right?
Yeah, you've also seen me die. Die.
And when I've seen in your perception, die, I don't think
it's a death. But you've come on and said that
was just. That was terrible.
And that reminds me of myself. Yeah.
Because you go up and you're so honest with yourself.
I used to get with Jimmy Carr all the time.
Right. So.
And he'd die. Oh, that was great.
Do you know what I love about you?
Yeah, Paul, I'll get off stage and I'll be like, man, you'll be
like, yeah, no, that wasn't that good to my face.
You'll just be like, yeah, weren't your best.
I don't know if I I would never and I love your stand up because
it's so you know, and I love being on shows with you because
what you do, if you're on before me, you create a room that
almost you, you you raise the bar intellectually and then you
can go into areas as somebody after you that will open up the
crowd into ideas and and you can formulate routines in a in a way
that you couldn't before. When you when you've got people
going to have been doing Dick jokes and arse and pussy hole.
You know I like asshole. Routines.
And then you're going up there and you're talking about what
you've lived through, which is unusual, and then you've got the
look to be on stage. You know, I've got to make do
with what I've been given. Well, you've fucking done the
most out of it and yeah, do you know what I mean?
You know I've got a where a Christian do I wore this for
you. I do.
This. Yeah, but you know, you, you're
always you're always popping style.
Paul, I see you. Do you know what I mean?
You'd be coming in after your sale you just come back from a
sale you'll be like, ah yeah yeah you see this you feel it
you know what I mean I'm like, oh okay you like fashion and I
like that you keep on doing these like different looks and
that now what we doing are we are we doing a city boy
transitions to a full time accountant.
He's left. He's left the city, and he's
gonna. Accountant.
Yeah, yeah. No, it's just, it's just giving
like it's not complete city boy. Look, I'm giving sort of like
refined. Yeah, VAT.
Yeah, accountant. Yeah, No, no, no, no.
But like, yeah, like, like, like low key like does something that
seems a little bit boring but is good at it and makes money at
it. Tax fraud.
Well, I wish. VAT.
Yeah, why do you even say VAT not VAT?
I don't know. VAT.
I don't know man, that's your people.
'S wag man. Yeah, that's your people's and
I'm not talking about that. Yeah.
I've never seen you do Indian stuff.
Yeah, weird in it. Yeah, I've never seen you do
anything. Yeah, yeah.
Can you imagine? Do you think I should work it
into my routine? I've met your mum, Yeah, and
she's not Indian. No, she ain't.
So I've never met your dad though.
No, me neither. No joking.
If you're watching Dad, please reach out.
Yeah, yeah, 07956. And he lives around the corner
from me, so yeah. Your upbringing and and leaving
school at At 14 you left school. Yeah, I left in year 9.
See, if you're Indian, that wouldn't have been even an
option. No, no.
I mean, I left in year 9. I went back in year 11 for about
a month or two and I was like, yeah.
What happened? Why did you leave?
I don't know, I just, I really struggled with school and also
just life was a kind of tumultuous and I just struggled
with being like dyslexic and you know, I just, I kind of pissed
me off that I was like really excelled in certain subjects and
really didn't in others. Like was obviously like behind
the rest of the year. And and then also we didn't have
like loads of money. And I just, I was at an age
where I really wanted to like feel confident and rather than
the long haul of getting an education for like the greater
good of your career years down the line, I wanted enough,
enough puffer jacket today. Yeah, I remember.
Naf Naf. You know what I'm saying?
That was expensive, right Lacoste?
Yeah. Farrah, exactly.
I mean, these were those were wives back.
Then they wasn't it. And this is a this is just a
thing about, I think, you know, a very like working class
mentality is that like the big sort of, you know, that kind of
intergenerational wealth that should be important and that are
like markers of good education. I think there's certain things
where you just think, yeah, but I want to feel good today and
it's like being hungry and eating a McDonald's.
Do you know what I mean? It's probably not nutritious and
actually good for you long term, but really quenches the.
We didn't know that back then. Yeah.
No, no, no, we didn't know. Farrah, Farrah Cross.
Remember that one? No, I don't remember that
actually. I mean, I'm because I'm, I'm,
I'm from the 70s, you know, I'm, I'm old school.
You're a bit, you're 80s, baby, right?
Yeah. So we, it was a different and we
thought it was a healthy meal. McDonald's.
Yeah, it did seem like that isn't.
It Yeah, it was called a restaurant.
But it flipping was. And also there were sesame's on
that bun. Yeah.
Do you know what I mean? Sesame and sesame's are
expensive. Yeah, now, yeah, Sesame's, you
know. Do you know, I remember going
like, like one of my first model checks, I took my, my mum, my
brother to Pizza Hut and in Streatham and like, I remember
us all kind of like marvelling at the salad bar.
Like that seemed really fancy. It was just like salad,
unlimited amount. Look at the corn.
You could just scoop it up. And then Chuck some 1000 island
dressing on it with the main and and and we thought that was
healthy. Oh yeah, yeah.
Croutons fancy. Croutons Fancy.
You don't like croutons? Yeah, you listen.
You ate. When was the last time you went
Pizza Hut? Oh no.
I mean the original Hut. You.
I love Pizza Hut. Do you haven't eaten a Pizza Hut
in years? Do not fucking lie.
I went this Hut just before the show.
Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut is one of the I'm
going to try to get one of the sponsor.
You are such a plain faced liar. If you're watching Pizza Hut,
don't ask me that. Yeah, but but let's not negate
the the question. When was?
The last time that you had a Pizza Hut?
1993, Yeah, it's one of the best pizzas.
Because your body's a temple. Look at you trying to be all
relatable. I'm every man.
No, you're not. But I'm in my 50s, you know, I'm
I'm an old man, you say, yeah, you're a baby.
You're a baby to me. But I see you as a younger
sister because you came through the main streets of London.
Yeah, I did. And this was in Streatham.
Streatham, I mean, I was born in Lewisham Hospital.
I was there until I was about 5-6, then I moved to Bermondsey,
then Streatham and then in my sort of basically 12/11/12
upwards, Brixton. Bombo clad.
Yeah, ratted. Now I don't know if I can say
this publicly. What?
But you're you're, you're Jamaican.
Yeah. Am I allowed to say this?
I don't know what are you going? To say.
Yeah, you can say you just said it.
What? What would be wrong with saying
that? Are you allowed to publicly say?
That I'm Jamaican and Jewish and.
Jewish at the same time. I think, yeah, I think you can
publicly say it. What do you ask Clark?
Oyve, yeah. Salt beef jerk chicken bagels.
Like how did this happen? My mum met my dad, they had sex,
she got pregnant. Here I am.
Now I've met your mum, you've never admitted to that.
No, she she hasn't. But I am here.
Yeah, so, and this is a. She says hello, by the way.
Shalom. Yeah.
But what? Yeah, a very lovely lady.
Your mum. I've never met your dad.
But how? This was a time in the 80s when
mixed relationships with potentially a Jamaican and a
Jewish woman were very frowned upon.
I have family members that have met.
My mum and Jamaicans, I mean, do you know what though?
The thing is, I think growing up in London, it's not like I was
the only mixed race person, like, you know, that my
neighbors were. And do you know what?
I was chatting, I was chatting to my cousin about this and
saying like it was kind of a lawless time that eight years,
man, because I remember like, especially where I lived in
Lewisham, the the National Front that would like them older kids
would like throw stones at me and my cousin and stuff.
But then at the same time, I remember us like we would go
down to like the local corner shop and we like some of the
shit we would do just for entertainment.
And then we would go in there the next day and be like, yeah,
can we have sweets? Like it was just a lawless time.
Like people were calling us all kinds of terrible stuff.
We're getting things chucked at us.
But then I think of everyone else that lived around there, we
would just call people like what they are would be like, oh,
that's Irish Margaret. That's so do you know what I
mean? That's that, that's rusted,
Steve. That's like, we weren't very
imaginative with it. Every time I introduce to people
they say who was your beautiful friend?
Who do you introduce me to? You ain't got no friends.
I ain't ever like. Yeah, that hurt, isn't it?
It's true, though. When do I ever see any of your
friends? Sometimes I'll see you at gigs
and you'll be like with some beautiful woman and I'll be
like, hey, Paul, you'll be like, yeah, yeah, now, now we're just
coming through and you, you always make a point of getting
that person away from me. And it like the most I'll get
is. Hey, because what you say,
anytime I'm with a girl, you're like, are you guys?
Are you guys? I do no 'cause I just like to
see you get uncomfortable. And then I'm looking at you and
then I'm trying to be, you know. Yeah, you're you're you're
basically looking at me with your eyeballs and your eyeballs
are saying shut the fuck up. And then I smile and I'm like,
So what are you like, are you, are you like banging?
Then are you like, is it, is it, is it being consummated?
Like what are we doing? What are we doing?
And you'll be like, yeah, no, sister sewing.
You're trying. Yeah, change the subject.
But I'm already in there. I'm like, So what is that?
So you guys going away together, but you've always got some
beautiful, like some beautiful woman with you who's well
educated. And I'm like, why are you with
Paul? Yeah, you, you, you generally
say that to the and then they, then they work it out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave me after the.
That's why I try and get them away from.
You. Yeah.
You never let you. You are always very quick with
it. You're very.
You're very swift.
Yeah. With the introductions.
Yeah. And I'm always like, where were
we waiting? You're like, no, no, no.
We're just going here. Good luck.
Yeah. See you later.
That's what I like about you. Very honest.
Yeah, too honest. Yeah, that, I mean it's an issue
and. It's caused me a little break
UPS. Me too.
Hashtag me too and and we've known each other since you
started because we shared the same management at the time,
which obviously we can't go into too much detail.
So I knew you from the beginning.
Yeah, you did. And you've been through
different. I mean, this is a very lawless
business that we work in. There's no union or anything.
No, there isn't a union. But you know, you also have to
be realistic with your expectations about agents.
Do you know what I mean? So you you also have some duty
as well. Yeah.
One to make sound choices or to understand when it's not working
for you, and also to assert yourself and speak up.
Yeah, and and that's what I like about you.
But there's been times when I've thought this has gone too far.
The management has taken and I've sent you the message and
I'm like, this is out of order and I've got your back.
I had your back at parties. Yeah, you have, You have, man.
You have, you have. And also every, every stage of
the way. You've always been, like, lovely
to me. And that is why, like, as we
were just discussing earlier, when someone's like chatting
some shit about you, unless it's about your flawed personality.
Do you know what I mean? Which I'm like, yeah, Paul is a
bit like that, but I like him. I'm sure I've got some level of
autism. Levels.
Yeah, May, Yeah, course. They asked me, girls, are you on
the spectrum? Yeah.
I'm a I'm a stand up like. Obviously.
Why are we doing what we do? Yeah, and, and The thing is, is
that we've used those sort of quirks, let's say of our
personality to our advantage and we've mined them.
And so I think that if you've been able to make the most of
some of might what you know, what might be perceived as
hurdles about yourself, but you're not working in an
everyday life, you're not doing an everyday job.
And so we're able to capitalise on those things about ourselves.
Like I'm just very, I find it really hard to lie and I find it
really hard to pretend. If I'm not into someone, I don't
like being around them. Now what's happened to me over
my life is I'll say stuff because that's exactly what I
think. And everyone will laugh and
they'll go, you're hilarious. And I'm like, Oh yeah, ha ha,
I'm not joking. I'm being deadly serious a lot
of the time. Yeah, I've had this problem.
You see you laugh as well at the end, whereas I'll just keep that
straight face and they'll. No, not always.
It's more like, you know, so you, you just kind of learn to,
you learn to assimilate and act like a normal human being in it.
Yeah, and I've, I think I've met your, I've met also your sister.
You've met everyone, you've met both my sisters, you've met my
brother, I think you've met my mum.
And we, we, we spent New Year's together.
Oh, yeah. Bridge.
Yeah. Do you remember?
That was actually good fun, wouldn't it?
Yeah. First time I saw Mark happily
take booze from his bar. Ohh yeah, the owner of Top
Secret. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The tightest man alive. Yeah.
Who we love. That was years ago it.
Was about. Five years, five years ago and
then and that was and we went to the Comedy Store party or it was
some day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We was at the Comedy Store party.
I just moved back here. You just came back to.
England. Yeah, I just moved back to
England. Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah.
That's what I mean. Listen, you've you've always,
you've always been consistent. Somebody was very disrespectful
to you. Yeah, really fucking
disrespectful. And then we, we you confronted
the woman and I, I stood behind you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, at first.
OK, so just for like context, I'd this person had asked me to
help them write their show and actually I ended up writing the
whole bloody show and. And it wasn't an issue.
I would have done it as a friend anyway.
And but then she tried to act like she'd written the show
herself and I was a bit like, but you didn't write it.
And she was like, no, I didn't. And I was like, and actually
it's not. I didn't want to.
You can't really get a credit for writing a show for someone
or a credit on where. But it was just the way she
tried to hoodwink me, not even like, it was just so scandalous.
And and then she went on to be nominated for shows at Edinburgh
and all of this stuff. And it kind of sent me mad.
And I didn't see her for years. And and then she got her agents
to like threaten me of legal action because they were like,
you're saying you wrote it? I said, but I did anyway.
Then we see her all these years later at, at that, at that
Comedy store. Yeah.
No, no, it was a Comedy Store like 40th birthday party or
some, some shit like that. And we saw her and I said, oh,
Paul, there she is. And he was like, yeah, look at
her. She's a waste man.
He was like a hype man at secondary school.
Like, yeah, you should fight her.
Yeah, she's disrespecting your Honour.
And then I saw her and she was all like, hi.
I was like, Nah. And he was like, yeah.
And he just like stuck around by me and her had it out.
But she she was all like, babe, Nah, I didn't mean it.
And I said, listen, me and you both know you couldn't write
your own name and a cheque. Now fuck off.
The Cafe de Paris. Yeah, that was it, Cafe de Paris
jokes. Me and you were walking about
like two hit women. Well, also, yeah, we was walking
around. Do you know what's funny about
that is everyone was trying to talk to you and I ended up sort
of being your, your autism interpretator because they would
be like, hey, Paul. Yeah, great stuff.
I'd love you to come on the pod and you'd be like looking into
the distance and then sort of look at me and be like, is he?
And I'd be like, Paul's, Paul, you were just going to go over
there. I didn't.
Even think we were going to, I think we went and did a gig
somewhere and thought, oh, I might as well just go and hang
out. Yeah yeah, yeah.
And see a wagwa and. That was a good night.
How you finding it like now you've gone on to you, your
sitcom, incredible sitcom. I messaged you at the time I
thought I wonder now you've got to a point have has she now got
to a point as Michelle go where I don't get a reply and you
replied straight. Away you always get a reply I.
Was like, you know, we've seen people change, yeah, as the
industry, but you come from an industry.
Yeah, I come. Yeah, I worked in a way more
bullshit industry than stand up and also getting credit for way
less than I do now, you know what I mean?
So yeah, and that none. I just have a pretty, I had a
pretty clear experience early on in my early 20s that I was like,
yeah, you kind of really got to hold on to your personality,
man, because you know, like I, I like people who are safe with me
And I've noticed like I've got some comedian friends that will
not chat to someone that they don't think's a good comedian or
they don't think's a successful comedian.
And I'm like that the industry ain't like that, you know, like
don't, don't be like that. Some, I've got some comedians
friends that are my good friends that haven't had the same
success that I've had, but they've one, they're good
comics, But more importantly, they've been really supportive
of me as I've been of them. And like that's more important
than aligning yourself with someone who you want to mirror.
You know what I mean? Success wise or career wise,
like it's going to serve you better in the long run to be
around people that you know have got your best intentions.
Yeah, there's a lot of backstabbers in this industry.
Yeah, people are full of shit. Do you know what I mean?
Because they want to be famous. But it's like, yeah, you can go
on. You can go on social media and
have a little viral moment. Good luck with that.
Yeah, because especially if you're doing things that are
just to get quick hits or whatever, it's like, you know,
we're all older now. I'm in my 40s, you're in your
50s. So that kind of like being
relevant current to the young people starts to people like
you. So people better know who you
are. And if you are, you know, too
quick to change and you know what I mean?
Like there's no real foundation of you, your brand, which is
your personality then that what we're buying into.
Well, you come from an industry where it's ruthless in the
modelling world that you came from.
Yeah, very. It does.
It doesn't get more cut throat and more toxic than that.
And you think this is a bad industry?
That's some next level. Yeah, it is.
It is, But then also it is not based on.
You can't really be strategic in an industry like that because it
is just based on your aesthetics.
They don't care what your personality is like.
You could be absolutely trash or still book all the same jobs,
you know what I mean? As long as you turn up, you'll
be fine. But I think it's a it was a good
lesson before getting into showbiz, as it were, because you
know, like something like looks don't last forever.
And so you know you can. Well, you know you know you can.
You can get a very full sense of who you are and self.
But how did that your personality in that world serve
you? Because I would have said you
would have been the more outspoken individual environment
and a lot of these girls wouldn't have had a voice.
But you're someone that even now, right?
But back then you wouldn't have taken shit from anyone.
No, I don't think it served me well for the industry.
It didn't serve me well as a model, but it served me well
that I've come out of that industry being around a bunch of
questionable people and I've come out of it relatively
unscathed. Do you know what I mean?
So I probably didn't have this, although I was successful,
probably didn't have some of the success that I could have had,
but. You get counselled from jobs and
stuff because. Yeah, I've been counselled from
a few jobs. Yeah, been sent home from a few
jobs. You see, this is the thing.
Because women with a voice and strength are still seen as
something that shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah.
And also the gatekeepers of that industry are, are men.
And so if you're like a young woman that that person feels
attracted to and they've got a sort of key that, you know, they
can grant you or not, and you're not malleable towards them, they
think that's you being disrespectful, but actually,
like, fuck off, you nonce. You know what I mean?
Without going into too much detail, this is this is what's
out there, and it's and it's known around the world.
Yeah, but what's your opinion of a woman with a voice?
Should they have them? What's my opinion?
Should women have a voice? Should women have a voice or
should they just? I don't know, Paul, what do you
think? Do you like a woman with a
voice? That's the bigger question
because obviously I'm a woman. And so yeah, women should not
only be able to use their voice, but not be vilified when they do
it. That being said, I already have
my voice and I use it. So I guess the real question is,
what do you think about women with voices?
No, because you have a voice, right?
It wouldn't be a very good episode if you didn't have a
voice on this, so you had to say something.
But generally, do you think it's OK?
Like generally in the world, should women just.
Shut the fuck up. Yeah, definitely.
I think they should shut the fuck up and I think they should
make dinner, and I think they should push up babies and I
think they should understand that that's their destiny.
And as soon as they start wanting more than that, I think
they should understand that something is wrong in them with
human nature. Do you know what I mean?
And if there's any questions that need asking, ask them.
But make sure you ask a man, because they have the real
answers right. You took the words right out of
them. Exactly, so you can shut the
fuck up and let me talk. So ironically, this is the
situation that you had with somebody working and
professionally in the industry. And I was at that point, I was
so happy that you went on to huge things because of what you
told me. Someone said to you and I sent
you a message when I saw what you did in in, you did a big job
on TV. And I was like, that guy can
shut the F up because what you did was shut a man down.
Not not verbally, not aggressively as I I would
perceive what he did to you and and and destroyed him
artistically and successfully, which is the greatest form of
revenge. Yeah, but that wasn't my
intention, to be honest. And I, and I will say this, you
see, in terms of like, I would say to like, you know, other
women and maybe younger women when you're kind of trying to
work out how to navigate those kind of choppy waters is keep it
moving. Do you know what I mean?
Like, no, you're not. It's very rarely are you going
to get any kind of emotional justice when people have taken
the fucking piss with you. But what you do kind of need to
do is keep your focus and make sure that you're heading towards
whatever your North Star is. Do you know what I mean?
And, and, and I say, I think men have got a, you know, we're not
in an equal world right now, but the same likewise, when we were
talking about that comic that I had that issue with that we
bumped into that was a woman. But I kind of understood at the
time that I was like, I can't really do anything right now
because she's in a, she's got more power than me in the
industry and she's got more of a voice than me in the industry.
That's what I had to do, is just kind of stay focused and
contained and like try not to have too much overspill and
yeah. Well, this is the thing.
This is an industry where it's almost a one in one out policy
and you've conquered only sexism, racism, obviously
homophobia because of your persuasion.
And. These are these are things we
all have in common. Look, do you know what The thing
is? You don't conquer it.
What you do is you just become more well versed in being able
to deal with it, right? And practice makes perfect.
There is no final moment when you go, yeah, I conquered that.
It's just you just become more confident with using your voice
and being able to navigate certain situations and finesse
them or even manipulate, manipulate them in a way that
you can get your preferred outcome.
Do you know what I'm saying? But there is no it's like
success in it, like a bit in your coral mind you is like when
I do the O2, I can't wait to do the O2 and then you do the O2
and you're like, now what it's like when I saw you at that gig
and he was like, you know what, Michelle this and that's going
on. And I was like, you know what,
Paul? The thing is, you couldn't be
more successful as a touring comic.
But I also don't think if you had some of the recognition that
I think sometimes you wonder that you haven't got in terms of
like for for the work that you've done.
I'm like, you would not suit being famous like that.
You would hate it. You're a Moody bastard.
Can you imagine if people just coming up to you 24/7 being like
hey man, can you? Would you hate it?
You wouldn't be happy. It would make your life less
enjoyable. I still like to live the life I
LED before the entertainment business where I could just go
about my business. And something you can't do, the
more and more famous you get, is go about your business and just
go to the shops and be yourself. It's, it's, you know, I do get
recognised now and again. Yeah, especially because you
drive around in a ridiculously expensive sports car.
Oh, the Porsche. Nothing.
Yeah, the Porsche. Nothing about that says let me
blend into the background. I got rid of that, did you?
I got rid of the Porsche, then got a Tesla but now I now.
You're like, I really missed my life before I was recognised and
people noticed me as he's like beep beep shrink.
No, I I didn't get the Porsche for for the fame.
I got the Porsche for the Geldem.
Yeah, for the geldem. Geldem.
Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, Geld me.
I deal with sin. Yeah, I see you.
I see you. So, but, you know, we are the
Porsches, we are the Ferraris. Somebody said to me like, oh.
God, Paul, that's do you know what you just saying that made
me think you're the kind of guy who turns around to a girl and
says I am the prize. I am you fucking.
You've said it, haven't you? We are the Porsches.
We are the Ferraris. I could just see you be like, I
could just see a girl trying to be a bit like, you know, Paul,
there's not much compromise here.
We're always doing what you want to do.
And I could just see you being like as you fucking flex your
pecs in front of your mirror looking at yourself, getting a
hard on like I am the prize. I appreciate that.
I'll take that as a compliment. Have you said?
That no, I've never. Why are you lying?
No, no, look. Look into my eyes.
You know how bad I am with women?
For me to even big myself up in front of a woman, I'm like, you
know, you obviously don't have many options.
If you're with me. That's what I if you're with me,
your options are limited. I think, I think if someone's
with you like something bad's happened to them in the past in
it. Do you know what I mean?
That's that's like a childhood marker.
You know what? I'm saying, why are you with me?
Like there was there was only one parent on the scene.
Please, Sir, I want some more. They're orphans most of the
time, you know, it's, I don't even know what my I I had a
question in my head. But now you've now
discombobulated me so much. Yeah, with facts.
Yeah, that that you've, you've psychoanalysed me.
I forgot the next. Not really psychoanalysed you,
it's just to read. You're not that mysterious.
I hope you're enjoying the podcast so far.
Just a reminder, this show is brought to you by Mrs. Elswood
Pickles. Now bringing punch to your
podcast, Mrs. Elswood Pickles are packed to maximize freshness
and crunch. Back to the show, would you
identify as more Jamaican or Jewish?
I mean, I'm a blend of the two, but I would probably say for me
and my identity, I would say I'm a mixed race black woman before
I would address Jewishness because it's what's relevant in
my life. I don't look Jewish but I'm sure
as hell not white, you know what I mean?
So it's more of a like a cultural marker rather than an
everyday experience. You'll always be white to me,
don't worry. Yeah, I bet are.
You actually the only other half Jewish, half Jamaican woman I
spoke to him was Richard Pryor's daughter.
Oh, rain, rain. Yeah.
The thing is, I'm not what, same as her then?
Because, you know, due days and money is only goes for your
mum's side. So you're not 1/2, you're lucky.
You're lucky. Am I all the perks?
All the perks? What are they?
So what? I can't say too much because the
producer and the owner of the building and.
The owner of everything of. Everything is yeah is Jewish, so
I'm not going to say too much. My management, my producer,
they're all Jewish accountant. That's unusual.
Yeah, most of the people, really.
Yeah. Hold on, we've got the same
accountant mate. It's not fucking Jewish, you're
lying piece of shit. I'm going to get you a better
accountant. Will ya?
Thanks. I'm going to get you.
I'm going to we're going to talk about that of but you know,
we're going back to love lives. Obviously you've dissected.
Back to love lives. You've dissected mine right, but
you you've lived through. You know, I've never managed to
to get to the point of and this is a controversial thing for me
to say. Being at my age is is finding a
partner of life partner for marriage.
You've done that right? You've completed.
It I mean, I, I completed it as in terms of like it failed and
I'm divorced. I tried it.
I know. Thank you.
That you've made it, I know, but that was different.
That's different. It's harder coming out of a
relationship, never mind a marriage.
Yeah, but I'm quite like, emotionally repressed in many
ways, so it didn't faze me as much as the admin of it did.
Yes, the admin. It's a fucking admin, man.
It's just a relationship. With enough paperwork, it's not
like saying you love someone and then being able to back pedal,
do you know what I mean? It's like you've, you've, you've
got enough admin like ink cartridges for days.
Is it even now sometimes I like, I've still got all my paperwork
from it and I, I, I've moved a bunch of times and I'm like,
shall I throw it away? And I'm like, no, because I
might need it. I don't want to have to do this
again. And you still talk to her.
Him. No.
Why do white people kill their parents so much?
I can't answer that, but like I, I would imagine that they've
probably felt like they've had to stay like loving towards
them. I think there's like an
emotional hold where that person probably isn't able to express
themselves to their parents and it boils up to the point where
they like shoot them or stab them.
Or something. It's generally like white.
Like I was trying to routine on this about how white kids kill
their parents and black, I don't know if black people don't kill
their parents. I mean, not I, I don't think
there's too many cases of that. Well, oh, black, one of my black
friends said, you know you, you would never kill your parents or
your dad. And he said I've never met my
dad so. Well, it's probably for safety
reasons at this point if the conversation came up.
So we've gone through the the relationship, we've gone through
the turmoils of the industry, but you've been very vocal about
your biohacking culture. My biohacking.
Oh yeah. Biohacking.
Biohacking, right? Yeah, I didn't think of it like.
That yeah, because look at how good you look for your The skin
is Immaculate. Whoever's doing your micro
needling. Yeah, I haven't had micro
needling for a while, but I do. I've been using this medical
grade tret. Tret noan.
Oh, yeah, I've got that. Oh, it's good, innit.
But you've got to get your skin used to it.
You know what I mean? Be dry.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Every two days. Every two days, man.
Now, now I'm down to like a a nice cool four times a week, is
it? Yeah, Yeah, I use that.
And I use this thing called Estroel, Right.
And it's actually it's for perimenopausal women.
And you're meant to put it on your Fanny, is it?
Yeah. So it don't fucking turn to dust
and blow away. But I put it on my face.
So it's like, if it keeps your fucking lips down there plump,
imagine what it could do for your skin.
Is it? Yeah, I'm going to have to get
this. Yeah, yeah.
Try my Fanny. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So what's this called? It's.
I don't think you should be using it.
I don't know, I might be wrong. But tretinol is like a retinol.
Right, it's a medical grade retinol.
So you put it on, but you can't go into the sun with this
because. You should only do it at night.
You're not doing it in the day, you know, because you could get
sort of sunburn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I use it every other day. At night I.
Have at night and then I put moisturizer over there.
Eye cream, you know. You use all the stuff but.
As you can see, yeah, you know, I'm a 51 year old man.
You mean you look fucking good? And but you are. 45-O is it?
You had said the public will believe that.
No, it's fine. I'm 45.
No, because on the Tinder account it says 35.
Fuck off, I'm not on Tinder. I was on Bumble.
You was on Bumble. A few years ago I got banned,
didn't it? Oh yeah, because they didn't
know it was you. They women reported me.
Are you being serious? For they thought I was
catfishing Paul Chowdhury, is it?
Yeah, they said. Why are you using Paul
Chowdhury's pictures? You know why?
It's because women will probably talking to you online and you've
got such bad people skills. They were like this state, this
can't be the real person. The real person is the
entertainer and stands in front of people and does public
speaking. And this is like one word
answers like what up? How you doing?
What's your favorite colour? And they're like, that can't be
the Paul Chowdhury I know. And it's like, Oh, yeah, yeah,
no, that's Paul. They said you're not as funny
there and now, Paul Chad, you wouldn't be this unfunny, would
they? Yeah, like what?
Have you met him? But if I do bits on a dating
app, yeah, it's even worse. The thing is, you're so
charismatic on stage, and it's kind of astounding that when you
come off stage you have none of that.
Yeah, I mean, you can't follow your own act.
I can't follow myself. You don't live up to you.
That's got to be hard. Why am I like this?
You're on the spectrum, brother. Do you know what I?
Mean how do I cure it? You can't man, this is you and
also you're in your 50s now. Let it go.
Just work with the fact that you're a bit of a Dick head.
How long have I got left now? I mean, who knows in it, the way
you're living life longer than everyone.
Is that I don't drink smoke. Last time we were out together
you were burning a spliff heart. I was with my mum.
Do you know what? There's jokes about that.
I said remember, I said do your mum know you?
Do you know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was like, I'm a bit stoned. And he was like, well, I was
watching a gig. I will say I wasn't gig.
We were both watching. We were both watching a gig.
Leslie Jones, who was amazing. And I was there with my friends
and my mum. And I was like, oh, sorry, poor,
I'm a bit stoned because my chat was terrible.
And he was like, does your mum know?
I was like, my mum's white, of course she knows.
You know what I mean? I've got a white mum.
Yeah, she knows. And then we all went out and
alleyway and that doesn't smoke. And then?
There's another friend of yours that wanted a selfie with me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was a big fan.
I was like, yeah, she's a. Massive fan of yours.
She was, she was over the moon and she kept on saying, oh, give
me another hug, Give me another hug.
And then she was like, oh, I don't know if he's being a bit
standoffish. I said, are you crazy?
I said the fact that he physically touched you on
multiple occasions, that means Paul is absolutely loving you,
OK? The man doesn't like touching
anybody, OK? And you just kept on going in
for these big hugs and trying to kiss your cheek and all this
shit. And she was like, I don't know
if he seemed a bit. I said no, that's Paul coming in
at 90%. Yeah, that.
That was me being friendly. Yeah.
Normally only because it was your friend.
Yeah. Anyone else?
Lovely. I would have just walked off.
Yeah, yeah. No, I know you would have.
I know you would have know. He was absolutely lovely.
You know, but how do you look so good without?
I don't drink, I don't smoke. Oh, intervention, It's not
natural. It's not natural.
Bonus Bliff. No man, when I say the amount of
shit and also I used to be a big K nut, do you know what I mean?
So like the amount of things that I have to do now is pure
witchery. Pure witchery.
I'm out here doing bruv. So you're saying so on a
day-to-day basis, what's the best stuff to use?
I think what you're doing, to be honest, I think that.
I think that. Men don't talk about this, no.
But I think, I think that yeah, you're a, you're a trailblazer
pool. I think like you've stayed
looking youthful because you don't smile that much.
It's the the laugh lines. You don't really use your face
that much, you know what I'm saying?
Every now and again I wonder if, like, one single tear rolls down
your cheek and you, you, you know, tap it away like an evil
villain. This is me happy.
Yeah, same you like, you may as well get Botox because no one
would notice you don't fucking move your face anyway, Yeah.
Does this gets rid of any lines? Yeah, yeah, look, that little
windswept. If I do that.
You look the same, is it? Yeah, Same.
Yeah. I've got the see these lines
here, but the mustache covers if I do that.
Yeah, I think the most youthful thing you could do for you would
be to try to restore the light behind your eyes.
Oh, behind it. Yeah, which is gone.
You can do red red light therapy.
No, you can't do that. That's called joy.
That's called happiness. I mean happiness inside.
That's going to be a difficult one to pull off.
Oh, it's a lost cause. Not happening me.
Do I mean, where do we find that?
You know, this is the thing. We wouldn't be here if we had
it, would we? Like what?
Why am I doing? Why are we alive?
Why are we doing this? To try and fill the void.
Spend the second home doing nothing like that.
Or I WhatsApp you and say yeah, do you want to do the pod?
You know this. You're just doing something.
Yeah. Go do something.
Do you know what I'm saying? Otherwise, like what?
What's the point of life? Pretty much.
Like why are we? What is it to do?
What? The thing is though, I wouldn't
like to say this is the point of life sitting with you in a
studio. Do you know what I mean?
You know, this is life. This is this is a metaphor for
life. Well, sitting in the studio with
you with some Pickles behind us and your pictures are.
AI Pictures. Your fucking AI pictures.
Do you know what's funny? I bet you look at those and
you're like, but I want to look like that.
I wish I looked at. That I know you do.
I know you look at me and you're like, I could just see you
taking that to the doctors, like Doc, make that happen.
When I go to the head, you know I need that hairline.
You have that hairline, what's the fucking issue?
No, but it's the bit at the front when it comes down.
Oh, the little pig. Just go Turkey pool.
Just fucking go to just go. Or just go and get your hair
plug. Stop, go hair plug.
Go get a hair plug. Shave your beard for a couple of
months. What was it like being on a
catwalk in comparison to being on a stand up stage?
Because. Find it's so much easier doing
stand up. Yeah, yeah.
And I just really didn't. I've found it really nerve
wracking doing runway and I find it so much easier doing stand
up. I would choose telling jokes on
stage any day over walking a runway.
Walking is difficult, isn't? It but like walking is difficult
if you just don't feel like that person.
Like I just felt like I was lying and it was evident
because, you know, I got a geezer walk.
So it just, you know what I'm saying?
So yeah, I just felt like a bit of a fraud.
But now when I've seen you walk up on stages, you you'd you use
it like a catwalk. Well, probably might read like
that in a comedy club in a dingy basement, do you know what I
mean? Yeah, and we've gigged in some
dingy basement. We've.
Gigged in some shit holes. But now you're going on to big,
big bombok like tour scene. Oh, is it?
I'm in. I'm like in the middle of
touring. Are you in the middle of?
It now currently. Touring, yeah.
In October, which is called the. The Afters.
The Afters and this is follow up from your previous tour and I
remember you touring a couple of years ago, then you did the
sitcom and what's this tour been like?
So far so good. It's been really nice and it's
been nice to be like in bigger rooms.
And I think since my last tour I had someone helping me with
social media, so putting up all my comedy clips and stuff.
And so it's nice to have people that know you from stand up and
you know, specifically you sort, you start to get to kind of see
who your audience is, especially when you go to different cities
and like we know as like POC's when you're travelling around
the country, you know, there's certain places you go and you're
kind of like, wait, how am I? Who's my audience here?
And so it's been really like heart warming and refreshing
actually. I'm surprised, like when I walk
out and there's like thousands of people, like, how do you know
me? But you've got so many outlets
now you've done, you know, I wonder if people come from your
modelling days and saying. I don't think so, no, because
I'm sitcom, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think more from the TV show that I wrote.
And then there's just like, yeah, there's a bunch of other
different things. Now there's as time goes on and
your body of work becomes wider, then people can kind of pick and
choose or you know what the thing that they know you from.
And that's why I try and sort of keep as like authentic as
possible in each because you know, you don't know how that
person knows. Because I haven't seen you at
the club for a while now. Yeah, well, it's because I've
been touring and and, you know, but I'll, I'll get back at it, I
guess, as soon as I finish touring.
I finished at the end of May. I'm going to be coming.
Will you come? Definitely going to be there,
will you? Yeah.
When's the London date? London dates?
I'm doing the end of May the I think 20, 24th, 25th, 26th at
Hackney Empire. Oh, wicked.
Yeah. Three nights.
Yeah. Bombo Clan.
Sold out baby. Big time rude.
Galaxy says you O2 Arena. Come on.
Three nights the Empire. Not many comments can do that.
Yeah, thank. You hard selling tickets out
there now? Yeah, but the first, Yeah, the
first night. So the first had the Empire sold
in a couple of hours. It was much.
Unbelievable. Yeah, I thought, I thought the
system went down. I did.
I genuinely thought because my my cousin called me and was
like, alright man, it's hard to get tickets.
I was like, I don't understand why.
And then I called up my agent. I was like, hey man, fit the
systems down. He was like, oh, let me check.
He went, no, he fucking. It's fucking sold out.
Unbelievable. And you've got to watch out for
those via Go Go Bastards. What's that Ticket touts?
Oh, really? They buy them at cost price and
then on the day they'll sell them or the few days before at 3
or 4 times the price. But you know what I think for
you, you have to worry about that because you've got you
know, it's been tried and tested.
But I think for me do my first like, you know, few Hackney
empires. I don't think there's any ticket
touts being like, yeah, let me let me let me throw my chips on
the table and see if this comics gonna people are gonna buy them
again, buy them off me a more expensive price point.
Well, I just want to say if you're watching Michelle,
Michelle de Schwartz is one of the finest in the industry and
you must go and see her on the tour.
She's touring all over the UK. Hackney Empire is sold out, but
I'm sure additional dates will be added to this much
anticipated tour. And you're now coming into
yourself in the industry which I've been waiting for for a
number of years. I knew there was a time.
They're going to come. You're going to blow up.
I think that time has come. Paul Chowdhury, thank you so
much. I genuinely adore you and you've
always just been so supportive and so nice.
And yeah, thanks for having me. And you'll always be my sister,
and you're always welcome. Thanks.
And also this is this is one of those moments where I must be
doing all right if you'll be on screen with me on your own show.
Thanks. An exclusive look at the
production. Thanks for watching this podcast
so far. Hope you're enjoying it and if
you are, leave a five star review, drop some comments.
I might even read them out in future episodes and give you a
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