1 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,280 Hello, this is Eva and you're listening to the In Between Tech 2 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,960 and Trust podcast. In this week's episode, I talked 3 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,440 to Michael Cohen and Michael is political scientist, founder of 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,880 Congress in Your Pocket, which is an app that has been making 5 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,439 US legislative information accessible to everyday for 6 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:37,440 voters for almost 18 years now. He's also authored the book 7 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,240 Modern Political Campaigns and he's Executive Director of Fight 8 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,120 Hate, which is an organization that's working to combat 9 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,320 anti-Semitism on college campuses globally. 10 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,640 Michael also teaches digital political strategy at John 11 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,080 Hopkins and NYU, which is why he's one of the best persons to 12 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,480 talk to. When we get into the 13 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:05,000 intersection of how AI is supercharging political content 14 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,960 creation and what it does to a voter's ability to know what's 15 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:13,200 real, we also talk about micro targeting and how it has 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,120 fundamentally changed who campaigns actually talk to and 17 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,320 why. Michael also believes that the 18 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:23,320 most powerful way to fight online hate is to take the 19 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:28,040 conversation actually offline. One question that kept lingering 20 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,800 with me after our conversations? The following In a political 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,960 landscape that is flooded with AI generated content, how do we 22 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,280 keep authenticity? Or we already passed a point of 23 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,040 where it matters? I invite you to find an answer 24 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,600 for yourself to that question and I hope some further arise 25 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,000 and some are answered are also shared with you. 26 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,720 Hello, Michael, and welcome to the In Between Tech and Trust 27 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,440 podcast. Thank you so much for having me 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,760 on. I want to start the conversation 29 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,440 as I do with every guest, because you also come from a 30 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,040 background in technology and politics, and I want to know 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,080 your take on trust in that intersection and also what the 32 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,800 first thing is that comes to your mind so. 33 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,480 The first thing that comes to my mind when I think of tech and 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,040 trust is really your iPhone. It's the most personal device 35 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,440 you have and it's on us all the time. 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,000 We probably touch it more than we touch touch our spouses or 37 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,880 any other human being during the day. 38 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,080 And it's a two way political gateway. 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,080 You know, candidates can now reach you directly wherever you 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,640 are and you can in turn seek out information or stumble upon it 41 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:36,120 in your feed again everywhere. But now that ADI has sort of 42 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,120 supercharged that content creation, how how much we know 43 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,320 is real and authentic and worthy of your trust are all things 44 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,080 that are sort of up in play right now. 45 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,240 But again, it all goes back to that connected device that we 46 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,040 carry in our pockets. And now talking about carrying 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,480 something in your pockets, you found it Congress in your 48 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,960 pocket, which is perfect, like an introduction to something 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,440 that you've been working on heavily. 50 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,600 And you also founded it because you wanted to make the 51 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,360 legislative information accessible and you wanted to 52 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,880 make it accessible in real time. What problem were you trying to 53 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,800 solve and how did it turn out? Well, I, I think this came out 54 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,400 of my own just nerd him. I have a PhD in political 55 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,480 science and mass communication. My dissertation was on Congress. 56 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,000 And so there was a lot of information that I wish I had 57 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,320 for that dissertation that wasn't readily accessible. 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,040 I would have loved to have talked to staffers. 59 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,240 I would have loved to have talked to people around the 60 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,920 process that I was studying. And it was, it's very hard to 61 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:32,040 find that information. I mean, you would have to go to 62 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,640 spiral down notebooks that were basically out of date when after 63 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,720 right after you printed them, you'd have to go and pay premium 64 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,440 services, thousands of dollars a year that you could get on the 65 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,280 Internet. But it was super clunky and it 66 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:44,840 was even at that price, it was out of date. 67 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,600 And so I felt that voters should really have that access to 68 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,920 information directly. And over time, we built out the 69 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,880 legislative section, which started with members sponsored 70 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,240 and Co sponsored bills. And a few years ago we had 71 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,280 committees and subcommittee membership and staff. 72 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,320 But last January, where we added something that we thought was 73 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,520 really amazing, we added AI bill summaries, which provides real 74 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,960 context for people on what Capitol Hill is working on and 75 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,160 also distills down for people because they're not going to 76 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,160 read 400 to 500 pay bills, which are available online. 77 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,920 And we also offer links to that. But giving them a quick context 78 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,080 check within a summary really does allow people to understand 79 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,760 what is going on in the process, and it does build trust. 80 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,520 Talking about trust, and particularly in the political 81 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,800 context, information somehow has become an infrastructure because 82 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,440 it's also about the provision of transparency, about tangible 83 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,680 impact that politicians do want to have. 84 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,880 And we often assume that access to information strengthens and 85 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,360 democracy. But from your experience, it is 86 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,880 that automatically so? And does that then also create 87 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,720 trust? I think nothing is automatic in 88 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,440 the current world, right, that we're in right now. 89 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,880 I think trust is earned and not given. 90 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,880 I, I think that again, with our AI summaries, we sort of build 91 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,240 trust by building, by breaking down the walls of legalese, you 92 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,560 know, that end up in legislation, which I think is 93 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,520 super helpful. You get to know what's being 94 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,040 proposed and with our widgets, how far along you are in the 95 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,560 process. So if your member says that 96 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,040 they're working on something and you find out that's true, then 97 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:17,920 that's great, right? And if you find out it's 98 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,800 something that's not true, well, then you have the information to 99 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,640 know that your elected representatives are lying to you 100 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,040 and that destroys trust. But I'm saying that overall it's 101 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,080 good because you can become a more informed voter and act 102 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:30,800 accordingly. And that helps strengthen 103 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,240 democracy. But I think ultimately what 104 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,840 we're trying to do is to help strengthen trust in democracy 105 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:36,440 through the information we provide. 106 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,280 Now, how people use use that information is another thing, 107 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,400 and how people are willing to interact with that kind of 108 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,000 information is also another level because just because it 109 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,360 exists doesn't mean that people will use it. 110 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,560 And just because it exists doesn't mean that people will 111 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,240 automatically trust it. I mean, we founded our, you 112 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,200 know, our apps with the first iPhone. 113 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,560 And so we've been around 18 years and we are used by 114 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,200 Democrats, Republicans and independents, people who work on 115 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,760 Capitol Hill and people who work off of it, people who work in 116 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,840 the process and out of it. So I think to a real extent, 117 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:08,600 we've done a really good job of maintaining sort of neutrality. 118 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,280 We're just providing information. 119 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:13,480 We're not, you know, summarizing it in a way that frankly gives 120 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,760 it partisan context to one way or the other. 121 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,040 And so I think that that helps build trust as well, so. 122 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,120 With your apps, use it at the intersection of the provider of 123 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,080 information and of the consumer of them as well. 124 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,920 And sometimes the provision does also aim at providing a 125 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,000 particular glimpse into the way of how this information is 126 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,560 consumed. And then also the consumer 127 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,920 coming from a background of context of how they want to 128 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,920 interact with the politician in itself. 129 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,800 Do you think that it has become more crucial to understand of 130 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,000 how to interact with this intersection and what is your 131 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,600 role in balancing navigating that? 132 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,680 That's a really fair question. I think some of the things that 133 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,680 we do is just straight up to provide information, but we also 134 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:01,160 allow people to sort of interact with us. 135 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:04,720 And by us, I mean me, I actually answer every single e-mail that 136 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,440 comes to Congress in your pocket personally. 137 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,840 And I've done this now for 18 years and I find that I'm in, 138 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,440 I'm in very interesting conversations with people about 139 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,520 what the information is, how we get it, how much is it updated. 140 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,480 That's actually much more something that they care about 141 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,000 more than really the sourcing or even the the potential bias is 142 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,840 that they just want to be right. And I think that that's a really 143 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,080 interesting opportunity for us. I think one situation that we 144 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,040 ended up in is after January 6th, the riots on Capitol Hill 145 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,400 and the insurrection, we actually published in the app a 146 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,920 marker of people who voted for decertify the election. 147 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,320 And my rationale was that if you were on the right, you wanted to 148 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,080 know this because you wanted to support these people. 149 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,600 And if you were on the left, you wanted to know who they were so 150 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,840 that you could vote them out. And as it turns out, the only 151 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,560 people who were very angry about it were the people on the far 152 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,960 right. I actually got emails from 153 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,960 members of Congress who I won't name. 154 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,360 But you know, guy, it's very heated arguments with people 155 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,280 about I bet you didn't do this when Democrats did this, you 156 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,000 know, years ago for Nancy Pelosi. 157 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:05,520 And it's just, it went on and on. 158 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,000 And you go down this rabbit hole and I realized, wow, it's really 159 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,920 interesting, like how both sides really do react. 160 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,280 And I'm sure if the situation was flipped, the left would be 161 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,040 coming after me on that as well. But I felt like it was a very 162 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,320 crucial piece of information because if you were evaluating 163 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,000 who you were supporting, again, if you were a primary voter on 164 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,440 the right, you wanted to know that this this person stood with 165 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,320 Donald Trump, right. But on the left, you definitely 166 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,039 wanted to know that too, so that you can target them in elections 167 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:33,919 and at least, you know, have more information. 168 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:37,039 And so I thought that it was defensible, but it was also just 169 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:40,760 sort of an interesting microcosm of how, you know, the side that 170 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,440 felt aggrieved will come after you and then the other side will 171 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,520 be completely silent but happy about it. 172 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,320 And so to a real extent, like I was willing to take the hit up 173 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,760 until the election was done. And so like, once we ended up 174 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,200 after the midterm election where these people were re elected, I 175 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:57,360 took the information out. Why? 176 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,160 Because it wasn't relevant anymore, right? 177 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,520 People had made their decisions based upon the information that 178 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,160 they had. We moved on. 179 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,520 And so I think it's it's an interesting place that we are 180 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,200 where we are providing factual information and people will get 181 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,440 angry just at the fact that the information is there, even 182 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,520 though it is absolutely true and trustworthy. 183 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,720 And you can check the votes, but you end up in a situation where 184 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,040 you're like, OK, you know, this is the value our brand, this is 185 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,560 the value, you know, our non partisanship. 186 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:27,960 And I still feel to this day that it was a very defensible 187 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,720 thing that we did. And I don't know that it 188 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:30,480 would've done a different. Way. 189 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,680 And now that you said that you answer all the emails 190 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:36,640 personally, that is super interesting. 191 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,800 I think it builds trust. I think it does, you know, to 192 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,720 your point, I think, I think knowing that most of the time 193 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,880 when people go and they interact with a platform or a product or 194 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,960 a service, it goes into this ether of customer service and, 195 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,560 and it's gone and knowing you never hear back from somebody if 196 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:54,160 you do you think you're getting a bot or you're just getting a 197 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,120 disinterested person. And for me, I wanted them to 198 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:58,880 know that, look, I'm the founder. 199 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,360 This is a project that I care very deeply about and that 200 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,720 actually builds trust. I think that that has actually 201 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,240 helped me in situations where I've had to navigate with, you 202 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,160 know, people who frankly don't pay us a lot of money. 203 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:12,800 I mean, it's not a very expensive app. 204 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,000 I mean, it's 10 bucks and it's $10 US. 205 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,640 And so, you know, it's, it's not something that it's a huge 206 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,120 commitment for somebody, but when they do it, they are 207 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,000 committed to it. And whether you're spending 208 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,480 $1.10 dollars or $1000, you want to know that the people who are 209 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,920 behind it are really into it. And and so I think that helps. 210 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,640 And you also teach digital political strategy and also you 211 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,040 offered modern political campaigns. 212 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,440 And if we now go and dive into through the digital campaign, 213 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,720 highlighting now about how you interact with the political 214 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,720 landscape through your apps and so on, what is your experience, 215 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,120 how the political campaigning has changed and also how it has 216 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,960 changed the way trust is built in the political context? 217 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,800 Yeah, I think basically we've moved to digital campaigning. 218 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,320 So the campaigning when I first started in my career was very 219 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,200 analog. You know, we actually hit paper 220 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,480 lists, we would knock on doors. There was only so much you could 221 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,760 really do because advertising was so expensive, particularly 222 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,160 in the state and local levels. But if you were running, you 223 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,640 know, statewide campaigns or national campaigns, you have 224 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,800 plenty of money, but you'd be spending money indiscriminately, 225 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,400 essentially buying big, you know, geographic areas that 226 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,320 weren't hyper targeted to what was going on. 227 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,480 And, you know, a lot of advertising was very irrelevant 228 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,560 to people. And so it's very easy for people 229 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,120 to sort of tune out not being, you know, interested in what was 230 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,560 going on because politicians weren't essentially talking to 231 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:33,760 them. They were talking to this mass 232 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,600 group of people. And so right now what where we 233 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,400 are is that digital campaign is essentially hyper charged our 234 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,240 awareness of candidates because now they can reach us at scale. 235 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,880 And again, as we were talking about earlier on your personal 236 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:45,920 devices. So trust is built digitally 237 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,120 through like two things that I say is essentially authenticity 238 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,960 and consistency. And this means that, you know, 239 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,480 is the candidate believable? And then when challenged, do 240 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,120 they remain trustworthy? And we don't expect our 241 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,920 candidates to be perfect, but we do expect them to be real. 242 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:03,040 And then on the campaign side, the micro targeting of all of 243 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,920 this, you know, it really says that I don't know, I no longer 244 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,440 have to go ahead and spend thousands of dollars on people 245 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,280 who are a knock interested in politics and be not interested 246 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,720 in my candidate at any level. And so you can now discern, 247 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,800 particularly in the United States, with the data that we 248 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,960 have, which voters might be interested in my my messaging 249 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,520 and then target those voters that are most most reachable to 250 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,960 activate and also to persuade so that you don't waste money. 251 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,600 But then you actually end up reaching more people in a more 252 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,480 interesting way. And now with AI, you have a lot 253 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,640 more ability to sort of create content around that. 254 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,320 And then we'll talk more about this and why there can be 255 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,760 pitfalls about it, but to reach smaller and smaller and smaller 256 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,160 groups of people in a much more personal and powerful way. 257 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:47,960 And to me, I think that's actually a good thing because 258 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,000 what happened in the United States and maybe has happened in 259 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,800 your country as well, as well as around the world. 260 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,600 The way I've seen it from the outside looking in is that 261 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,160 politicians have have sort of doubled down on their bases of 262 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,360 support and they have stopped talking to the other side or 263 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,320 they have stopped talking to those people who are actually 264 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,520 reachable. But now because you can hyper 265 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,600 target and now you can reach people with scale and with 266 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,360 content that can be created rather quickly online, that can 267 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,920 be interesting and powerful, you now have more incentive to reach 268 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,840 out beyond the people that you can just get just by showing up 269 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,720 or just by getting them to show up. 270 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,880 You could now get people who you would normally have said in it 271 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,280 nineties, 2000s and even the twenty 10s that it was just too 272 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,000 expensive. We couldn't afford it talking. 273 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,280 About content does. And if it does, how does 274 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:40,600 generative AI change the way ethics is infiltrated and 275 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,600 campaigning it actually? Puts much more of a 276 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,120 responsibility on the people that I'm teaching and the people 277 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,560 that I'm trying to work through my own small system. 278 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,880 I teach a course in digital go campaigns over at Hopkins and I 279 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,320 teach a campaigns and international campaigns course 280 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,360 over at NYU this semester actually. 281 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,880 And so my my point of view on this is that as I teach them the 282 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,040 tools, you also need to teach them the responsibility and the 283 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,240 ethics that go along with it. And so to a real extent, the 284 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,200 pressure on campaigns is always to that is the one and singular 285 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,600 goal that every campaign has. It's essentially a a tech 286 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,560 startup that has an end date. And so you have to work within 287 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,880 that structure and within those those needs and with the with 288 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,920 those priorities, right. But also we need to do the thing 289 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,840 that that I keep telling my students is that you have to 290 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,240 give it adult supervision. Yeah, no matter what you end up 291 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,200 getting from AI slop is not just the piece of this. 292 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,880 I mean, you had a great discussion about this with a 293 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,120 previous interviewee that was, I was listening to this morning 294 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,360 while I was working out and it was great to hear you guys talk 295 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,120 about slop. But it's not just slop, not just 296 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,360 like low quality content, it's also disinformation, 297 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,840 manipulative content, content that takes things out of 298 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,680 context. I, I think that there's a lot of 299 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,520 ways that we need to make sure that we teach our students who 300 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,560 are going into this and our young professionals that there 301 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,760 is a line that you will be continuously put up against. 302 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,400 And you need to be able to understand what that line is and 303 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,480 what the consequences of going over that line are, not just for 304 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,880 you, not just for this campaign, but also for the broader 305 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,440 democracy that you, you work in. So what I'm trying to get people 306 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,040 to think about is not just their career or their client, but also 307 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,240 the industry of politics around you. 308 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,800 And that if we devalue what the industry of politics is and, and 309 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,040 we all have a stake in this industry, then that actually 310 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,360 backwards flows towards you, you know, individually and your 311 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,160 can't your opportunities to go and work in this, in this 312 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:33,720 endeavor. And I think to a real extent, 313 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,400 you know, all this has to be taught. 314 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,880 It has to be reinforced throughout the parties and it 315 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,480 has to be reinforced with people who are owned companies like I 316 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,760 do and then teach those people who are coming up if they didn't 317 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,520 learn it in college and certainly on the job, there is a 318 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,760 real impact to going to the dark side here. 319 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,480 What is the? One thing that you would want to 320 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,280 teach me and my listeners now that we should take away at 321 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,920 exactly what you described of like the industry and also 322 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:06,560 regarding it as more of a well ecosystem and also our role in 323 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,960 that regard hard so the bottom. Line that I would love people to 324 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,680 take away from would be if it's not real, if it's not authentic 325 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,240 and it's not factual, then don't do it. 326 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,040 Beyond that, everything else is is ancillary and also supportive 327 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,040 because at some level it will either come back to you 328 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,320 physically on your candidate candidate or metaphysically 329 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,600 through devaluing democracy. And that doesn't really help 330 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,920 anybody. And so to me, staying on the 331 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,320 right side of that actually does not only, you know, reinforce 332 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,560 trust and, and trust in democracy, but it also 333 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,200 reinforces trust in your candidate. 334 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,120 It's actually good for you if you do the right thing within 335 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,640 this space. And that's not the same to say 336 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,920 that everybody who does the right thing is always going to 337 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,760 win. But it does mean that when you 338 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,240 do the right things, it eventually will lead to the 339 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,880 right results. And so to a real extent, I think 340 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,880 that that's what I try to teach my students and what I would 341 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,160 hope to the people we're listening here when confronted 342 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,200 with these kind of ethical decisions every day, 343 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,800 particularly on the campaign trail. 344 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,119 Take a step back, take a breath, take a comment and say you know, 345 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,359 is this real, is this authentic and is it factual? 346 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,280 And if I can answer all three correctly, then go. 347 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,240 If you can't, or if one of those 3 or some somewhere on the wrong 348 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,839 side of it, you need to take a step back and you need to think 349 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:23,760 about what the potential impacts of this are and be truthful with 350 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,520 yourself and with your team now. Bringing tech into that equation 351 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,800 and looking into the way of also how we witness that tech became 352 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,680 more political. And there's also the discussion 353 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,760 around and whether it's politically sitting upstream or 354 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,480 downstream of like the usage of itself. 355 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,480 Would you say that tech is rather a tool in that equation 356 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,760 or is it also influencing the way of authenticity is being 357 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,200 perceived by those who look at the output of someone who's 358 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,400 campaigning for their next also position in the political 359 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:02,120 environment? We have to. 360 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,280 Understand that these are just tools, right? 361 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,680 Politics is sort of it's a very human enterprise. 362 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,480 And so even though we have AI and when you ask it certain 363 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,560 questions, it will give you very human answers. 364 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,560 You know, we have, we have a friend who's in a tough spot. 365 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,440 He's in the hospital right now. And, you know, I, my wife and I 366 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,360 were talking and I actually went and used Chachi BT to go and, 367 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,920 you know, try and get a sense of like how I should communicate 368 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,920 this, you know, to people and how you, how I should to think 369 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,040 about it. And it comes back with very 370 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,480 human responses. It's, it's a remarkable tool, 371 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,360 but it doesn't negate like the conversation I had with my wife 372 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,360 or visiting him yesterday in the hospital and his and his wife 373 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:43,560 and being there as a human being. 374 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,240 I, I think that we need to really understand that these are 375 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,400 just tools, OK? These are not replacements for 376 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,320 human beings. You know, whenever we make a 377 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,880 huge leap in in technology, humans automatically think that 378 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,800 we're going to somehow be devalued and that we're going to 379 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,360 go away and that, you know, the technology is going to take away 380 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,240 jobs or take away our value. When I and I think that there is 381 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,160 value in the tools, but there's much, much greater value in the 382 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,840 humans that are using these tools. 383 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,880 And so when you use it, you need to look at it from the 384 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,200 perspective of, you know, this is, this is additional 385 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,800 information, an additional tool that I can use to create or to 386 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,000 understand or to research or to communicate. 387 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,080 But that you're the one who's doing that, that ultimately 388 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,120 you're the one who makes the decision to hit send. 389 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,760 You're the one who ultimately decides to take whatever you 390 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,320 learned and go talk to somebody about it. 391 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,240 You're the one who who looks at all this information and has to 392 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,080 make sense of it and also is responsible for any 393 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,440 hallucinations that comes through the AI. 394 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,360 So you have to make sure you double check everything. 395 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,640 And so I think to a real extent, when you look at all of this, 396 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,800 you have to then put all of it into perspective of that we are 397 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,040 still human beings using tools now. 398 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,920 You're at the epicenter of also combining tech with your work 399 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,520 because you haven't only founded like Congress in your pocket, 400 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,400 but you also work as executive director for Fight Hate. 401 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,760 And you also look into the way of how it's directly 402 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,080 intersecting with combating hate or extremism. 403 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,920 Also the conversations that we have. 404 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,840 Like the political landscape and what role does digital 405 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,960 architecture play in that regard? 406 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,080 And also is there a way of identifying whether it's 407 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,880 amplifying or also decreasing division? 408 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,360 Well, thanks for. Mentioning fight hate. 409 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,240 This has been a thing that I've been associated with now for 410 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,000 about 8 months. First of all, it's an honor and 411 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,400 a privilege to work on these issues. 412 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,760 I'm Jewish and Fight Hate is an organization that works to to 413 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,280 eliminate anti-Semitism on college campuses worldwide. 414 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,560 And we have a number of different campuses all over the 415 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:41,680 place. And these students are 416 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,880 incredible rock stars. And they are meeting not just 417 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,400 among Jews, but they're also meeting with Muslim students and 418 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,280 with other people of different variations of religion and 419 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,920 ethnicity and color. And the idea here is that we 420 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,720 can't solve this alone. And so from a extremism online 421 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,080 perspective, it's very well documented that extremism online 422 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,200 and hate is self perpetuate, right? 423 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,280 And it's often generated by forces that actually want to 424 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,120 divide us, that have the interest in dividing people. 425 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:12,800 And because it's easier to conquer, you know, if you 426 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,200 divide, you can conquer, right? And it's an extremely 427 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,520 challenging fight online. And there were some outstanding, 428 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,160 really well funded organizations that are working on this, 429 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,920 including the Blue Square project by Robert Kraft, who is 430 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,560 doing magical work on this. It's very, very hard because it 431 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,520 will never end because AI is made it even easier to spread 432 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,120 this kind of hate. And from my perspective, when I 433 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:35,000 looked at this project, you know, fight, hey, what was 434 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,640 interesting to me was that they weren't limiting what they were 435 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,200 going to do just online. We have these tools. 436 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,560 How do you use them? And so my point of view is we 437 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,960 only use these digital tools to identify and organize students, 438 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:47,320 you know, who don't want to live with us. 439 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,480 And this is Jewish and non Jewish students on their 440 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:50,920 campuses. And eventually, you know, 441 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,200 because if you don't stop it on college campuses, it goes to 442 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,840 their families, it goes to their careers and it goes to their 443 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,760 communities. So like now is really the time 444 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,880 to do it and it really exists so that real people can work 445 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,920 through these issues in offline spaces. 446 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,720 And so I think that when I look at the tools that we have, 447 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,920 sometimes the best way to change that trajectory is to have 448 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,520 conversations offline, whether it's anti-Semitism or 449 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,720 Islamophobia or whatever. The best relationships that we 450 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,400 have are not online. You know, you and I met at a 451 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,200 conference and even though we could have met on LinkedIn or 452 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,080 somewhere else, we met in person. 453 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,920 And I think that that is a different kind of relationship 454 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,600 than when you meet somebody online. 455 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,880 I met a lot of them at this conference that we went to shout 456 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,280 out to the EU, you know, political tech summit, which was 457 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,760 fantastic. Yosef and then the team just 458 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,480 been magical, amazing leaders and and really forward thinkers. 459 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,800 But the magic of it really is, is that you bring people 460 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,480 together. So it's much easier to be mean 461 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,200 to somebody from behind the screen. 462 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,440 It's much more difficult to reconcile that with somebody 463 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,760 you're right in your face, right and who wants to talk to you, 464 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,800 who wants to work through these issues and who wants allies. 465 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,640 And I think that whether you're on the Muslim side of this or 466 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,880 the Jewish side of this or the Palestinian side or the Israeli 467 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,160 side of this, we really do want to sort of build those bridges 468 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,960 offline and using the digital tools that we have to bring 469 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,480 people together. You know, get the word out on, 470 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,640 on events that we're doing, you know, put together messaging 471 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,640 that brings people together that doesn't just fight back, but we 472 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,640 want to fight with allies. We don't. 473 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,080 And to do that, we do use digital tools, but we're not 474 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,440 using, you know, digital tools to try and change people's 475 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,440 minds. We feel that other people are 476 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,440 doing a really good job of that and at scale. 477 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,320 And we feel that the best, you know, work that we can do is on 478 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,000 the ground using the tools that we have and talking. 479 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,480 About tools and also the way of how are they foster 480 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,920 collaboration interactions or not and combining or comparing 481 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,040 that with the interactions that we have in real life. 482 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,160 What role do you see, you see currently taking trust in both 483 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,760 of those spheres, be it online, be it offline, like in light of 484 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,840 fight hate or also in general? And is it being driven by 485 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,560 technology or is it amplified by technology to increase or 486 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,640 decrease the trust that we have mutually? 487 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,520 Yeah, I think. Technology has not been a force 488 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,120 multiplier for trust. I think technology is, I think 489 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,720 it's fair to say after, you know, the past few years since 490 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,520 10/7 and, you know, particularly in the space that I'm working 491 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,760 with, with fight, hey, it has broken levels of trust between 492 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,440 people where we have, I've heard too many stories from my 493 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,080 students where the trust has been broken among friendships 494 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,920 and a lot of it has been generated through online 495 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,520 content. And it's very difficult to fight 496 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,960 back against that. I mean, people, you know, are on 497 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,800 their phones a lot and you know, the algorithm is optimized for 498 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,240 outrageous or hateful content. The stuff that's on top of us, 499 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,840 that's coming through the cloud is really devaluing the trust 500 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,800 that we have among each other. And so we have to fight much 501 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,480 harder. We have to fight the hate 502 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,560 offline together. And that to me is the crux of 503 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,400 the work that I do with fight hate. 504 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,440 And these students who are just fantastic. 505 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,920 They are willing to put themselves out there and to be 506 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,240 yelled at or to be discriminated against. 507 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,440 Any opportunity to somehow reduce the the hate on campus. 508 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,000 It's a really remarkable group of people and whatever they end 509 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,480 up doing and after college, I mean, these are people who are 510 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,200 going to be successful based upon just my own little slice of 511 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,000 their life. And I think that they understand 512 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,600 very clearly that and these are digital natives, that they can't 513 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,480 just fight back online, that that doesn't work right? 514 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,880 That it's much more impactful and powerful to do that offline. 515 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,360 And so to me, that's why I wake up every day feeling very lucky 516 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,040 that I get to do this work and who I get to work do it with. 517 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,600 Whether it's the students or whether it's our lay leaders or 518 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,320 whether it's the support I have for people like Jay Schiffman, 519 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,920 who should be mentioned on this podcast, who founded this after 520 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,840 10-7 and put a lot of his own time and money into it, and one 521 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,560 of the most impressive people I've met also. 522 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,760 Looking into the way of how you now mentioned your work with 523 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,080 your students in general, but then again, you also work with 524 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,680 students to teach them about future campaigning. 525 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,680 And you mentioned, like, NYU and John Hopkins. 526 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,400 But is there something that your students understand about 527 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,640 digital trust that earlier generations didn't? 528 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,880 Yeah. Yeah, they, they really have an 529 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,360 I'm, I'm not going to curse on, on, on your, on your fair 530 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,400 podcast, but they have high BS meters. 531 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,000 They do, but they know what's it's much their authenticity 532 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,960 meters operated exponentially higher than ours do. 533 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,240 They could spot this stuff a mile away and much quicker. 534 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:51,640 They also get the joke on what is AI and what is it when it's 535 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,000 appropriate and funny and interesting and when it's trying 536 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,720 to be manipulative. And so they really, since they 537 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,920 grew up with this, really understand some of the 538 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,920 subcultures that exist within online and wine digital and 539 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,640 especially digital campaigning. And so to me, like, that's 540 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,120 really great, you know, and they also, but the thing that I'm 541 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:11,000 concerned about, and I think that they're concerned about as 542 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,520 well, is that things are getting to the point where the 543 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,200 development of AI has become so rapid. 544 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,520 I mean, just in the past year, the quality of the video, the 545 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,360 past 12 months, the quality of the video that we can get 546 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,560 through simple prompts to now is very, very dramatic. 547 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,320 I mean, seeing Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise fight on through AI and 548 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,480 it looks real like it is. It was really hard. 549 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,000 I was looking at this. I'm like, is this a movie that 550 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,520 I'm missing? What's going on here? 551 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,560 And of course, it was, it was AI. 552 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,240 And like, it's getting me. And students are saying, yeah, 553 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,400 you know, it's getting to the point where even they are 554 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,240 starting to be concerned about this. 555 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,560 And so I think to a certain extent, if those people can't 556 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,080 spot it really quickly, then we know we're sort of in trouble. 557 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,360 And so we have to pay much, much more attention to what this is 558 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:58,840 and how it's being distributed. But they also understand what 559 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,680 works online. I mean, they know what's funny 560 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,800 and interesting and cool, and they also understand what's 561 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,000 cringe. And so you have to pair this 562 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,560 with how I teach. You know, in both classes, they 563 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,400 get clients in the beginning of the semester. 564 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,160 And so like, we don't have standard essays or quizzes or 565 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,280 tests. We have them choose their own 566 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,520 political candidates at the beginning of semester and then 567 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,000 we have them follow through what they, what they want to 568 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,120 construct for their, their candidates. 569 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:24,680 Now, some of this does include AI. 570 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,600 And so when you, when they start using the tools, they realize 571 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,320 not just conceptually, but also hands on that, Oh wow, I could 572 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,920 do this. It is right, I could and then I 573 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,440 could do that, but it's really cringe, right? 574 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,760 And so to a real extent, they can recognize the content that's 575 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,440 really great online. But once they start using the 576 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,560 tools, they actually understand the limits and also the benefits 577 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,120 of what the tools can do for them. 578 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,960 And then also the ethics around them. 579 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,880 And I think that with all of that, getting them hands on into 580 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,040 a campaign right away that they care about, not me, like they 581 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,080 choose the their own candidates, not me. 582 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,200 It really brings them into the process and really makes it real 583 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,320 for them. And then when they leave my 584 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,800 class, they can take this and show this to a potential 585 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,720 employer and say, hey, look, this is a campaign plan. 586 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,720 We did. This is content that we produce. 587 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,400 This is all the kinds of different things that you would 588 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,680 do in a campaign. They can now show examples of 589 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,720 actual real world work that they would have done for a client had 590 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,000 they had that client. And I think that that changes 591 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,520 how the students look at the tools that we have and also 592 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,320 changes the platforms and the other things that they want to 593 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,840 go ahead and build, right? Because they understand, oh, 594 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,520 wait a minute, you know, I had a chance to work on this in my 595 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,040 class. There's a gap here. 596 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,800 We can go and do this better or wow, there's a really big 597 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,800 problem here. We need to work on a tool that 598 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,600 would mitigate this kind of misinformation or 599 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,640 disinformation. And so I think to a real extent, 600 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,720 putting them in those kinds of roles really does make it much 601 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,960 more interesting for them, and it also makes them better 602 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,840 professionals on the way out. What do younger? 603 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,400 Generations understand differently about ethics and AI 604 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,480 than potentially older ones do, so I think. 605 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,640 Older people right now are much more concerned about AI just 606 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,080 globally, like we all think that, you know, if you were to 607 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,600 ask the olds, the olds would say, oh God, this is going to 608 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,720 kill us all. And this is Terminator kind of 609 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760 level stuff, you know, just looking for the next shoe to 610 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,440 drop. Students are looking at this as 611 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,960 like, wow, this is kind of interesting. 612 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,120 This is, this is very, you know, how do I get, how do I use this, 613 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,800 you know, to my advantage? How do I use this in my, my 614 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,400 school work? How do I use this in my, my 615 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,120 regular life? They, they look at it as if we 616 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,760 look at it like spell check. Like, do you remember when spell 617 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,960 check happens? You know, when I remember when I 618 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,280 first used spell check on Microsoft Word and I was like, 619 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,760 wow, this is great. I don't need to look up this 620 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,280 word because the squiggly line is telling me that I spelled, 621 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,880 they're wrong, you know, and like, that's amazing, right? 622 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,480 And so now people are saying to themselves, OK, well, how much 623 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,760 do I need to do, you know, with the tools that I have and still 624 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,800 make sure it's still me, right? And so I think that the place 625 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,680 that they're navigating is that because it can create content 626 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,040 from scratch. And it is also a big challenge 627 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,600 from the education standpoint. How much am I getting? 628 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,640 Is AI driven? How much am I are they producing 629 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,840 is AI driven? You know, if you are not a 630 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,560 natural writer, AI is a really interesting lure for you, right? 631 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,520 If you are not a great researcher, you can get your 632 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,000 answers very quickly, and most of them will be right. 633 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,240 Some of them will be wrong. So like we have to teach them 634 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,200 how to use these tools because they're going to use these tools 635 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,040 and they're going to use them at a much more fluent rate then 636 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,800 then we're using them right now. And so like, for example, in my 637 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,120 classes, and I'll tell my students this right now, the 638 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,720 secret sauce to my classes is that now basically a quarter of 639 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,720 your grade is your class participation. 640 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,800 So if I get really great writing from you and I get really 641 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,440 interesting and thought provoking pieces from you or 642 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,320 great content, but you are basically a zombie in class. 643 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,640 Well, it's pretty obvious to me who's doing the work right now. 644 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,840 On the other side. I tell them, hey, there are 645 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,440 certain uses of AI that I encourage you to use, right? 646 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,080 We actually do exercises where you ask them to use AI to 647 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,080 produce content so they can see what it can do or use it for 648 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,680 research on certain topics that are esoterica that they would 649 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,360 never be able to find, right. And then go ahead and double 650 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,160 check that kind of information to make sure it's right. 651 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,200 So I think there's a lot of ways to sort of build trust within 652 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,520 the classroom, build trust within our communities and, and 653 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,040 in our careers and especially in our politics. 654 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,560 And to me, that is, that is what we have to lean into now because 655 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,120 the tools and the digitals are all pushing it back on trust, 656 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,880 right? So we have to lean into trust as 657 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,880 human beings in all phases of what we do so that we can remain 658 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,360 human and remain the kind of people we want we strive to be. 659 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,920 Yeah. And leaning into trust is 660 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,520 exactly like the transition that I want to make now with you, 661 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,440 because I want to lean into some in between moments when I ask 662 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,960 you the first moment to share. And that is, is like trust in 663 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,200 democracy feels like to you. It feels like it's. 664 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,560 Being challenged and. What should in a campaign 665 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,320 technology never do It's. Never replaced into human 666 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,840 judgment and what? Is the real danger of AI? 667 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,360 That's a very interesting question. 668 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,160 I think the real danger of AI is alienation, that we lose trust 669 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,640 in democracy and we lose trust in each other along the way. 670 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,520 What? Do voters need more of they 671 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,160 need? More in person interactions with 672 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,280 the candidates and their tiers. And I think that that that's a, 673 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,880 that's a huge piece of campaigning. 674 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,800 And we still find today that the research does land that point 675 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,160 that if you interact with people is a much more powerful 676 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,200 experience and also a much more persuasive one. 677 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,280 And. Is there a word that you can use 678 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,200 to share if you're currently in between something? 679 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,640 I think. I don't know. 680 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,400 Yeah, this was hard for me. I think the word authenticity is 681 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,000 a word that I find that I grapple with everyday. 682 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,800 How much of what I'm seeing is real? 683 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,640 How much of what I'm seeing is generated, I'm seeing, you know, 684 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,480 in all phases of my life. And I, I think that the what 685 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,560 voters absolutely want, and this is cross cultural and cross 686 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,120 national is they want real and they want authentic, but they 687 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,800 also understand that there's a lot of digital tools now that 688 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,240 are fighting against that because they're easy to use. 689 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,240 And so it actually places a higher premium on authenticity. 690 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,720 But I think that we are struggling with that word right 691 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,760 now and what it means. I think that that's that's 692 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,639 something that we have to reconcile over the next several 693 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:12,159 years. What a great end to a great. 694 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:14,719 Conversation. I enjoyed having you as a guest 695 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,639 and thank you so much, Michael for joining the In Between Tech 696 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:19,600 and Trust podcast. Thank you so much for everything 697 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,639 I. Appreciate it and thanks for 698 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:21,360 listening everybody.