1 00:00:06,610 --> 00:00:10,170 Hello and welcome to the In Between Tech and Trust podcast. 2 00:00:10,450 --> 00:00:14,450 My name is Eva Lihotzky and in today's episode I talked to 3 00:00:14,450 --> 00:00:18,410 Magnus Stauber. He is Co founder of the startup 4 00:00:18,410 --> 00:00:22,330 Nexus Politics and together with his team, Magnus is on the 5 00:00:22,330 --> 00:00:26,170 mission to bring trust to the democratic process. 6 00:00:26,170 --> 00:00:30,770 We dive into his approach, his limitations, and also the 7 00:00:30,770 --> 00:00:33,570 challenges that he has encountered so far. 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,560 Welcome, Magnus to the In Between Tech and Trust podcast. 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:40,280 Thank you. It's a. 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,200 Pleasure to be here. You've just founded a company or 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,520 a startup in the intersection of democracy and also society. 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,720 And when you now think about tech and trust, what's the first 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,440 thing that comes to your mind? Simply said, it can be improved 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,360 to be honest. That's that's what. 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,360 We're trying to achieve with Nexus politics. 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,280 I think there's room to go. There's so much that that can be 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,680 done these days that couldn't be done like in a. 18 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,160 Like a couple of years back. Especially when I think of AI, 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,040 the advancements there, what's what's possible now with like 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,800 aggregating individual opinions, like analysing it and also 21 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,400 deriving like policy insights, policy. 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,360 Recommendations out of it? So I guess there's. 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,120 There's so much that can be done and should be improved, and 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,680 that's what we are trying to achieve with Nexus Politics. 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:32,240 And so your company sits at the intersection of like technology 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,880 and also the society or voters, so to say. 27 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,440 And if we zoom out, politics is one of the domains of where 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:45,200 trust is perceived as quite fragile and also challenged by 29 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,600 now. In your founding history, what 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,800 was the moment when you realize that technology can play a 31 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,800 different role? Yeah, that's a good question. 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,040 I think there was no specific moment. 33 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,320 Where I realized. Like now, that's the point of 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,480 time where I think we should get it started it. 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,560 Was more like a greater process. Like from both sides. 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,160 I mean 111 side is like the technical. 37 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,880 Aspects of it. The enabler technologies. 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,800 Which are out there these days. But on the other side, it's the 39 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:14,920 demand side. So the. 40 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,880 Side, I guess where we have. Seen this constant? 41 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,400 Deterioration and trust. In politics and also a. 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,680 Lack of? Yeah, like. 43 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,960 Like people just being dissatisfied with how democracy 44 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,120 functions, which is like. The core. 45 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,960 Problem that we are. Trying to address. 46 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,080 And I guess the combination out of the two made me think and 47 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,640 also my my Co founders. It's not just my idea, it's. 48 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:40,640 Also my my Co founders Christopher Buffalo's idea. 49 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:44,520 On Yeah building Nexus. Politics as a device, as a. 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,080 Platform in order to bring. Trust back into politics. 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,840 Can you trade a bit on how you do it? 52 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,440 Because I mean, the ambition is quite important, but also quite 53 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,600 challenging to translate it into tech and to navigate that space 54 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,040 of the personal perception of the voters and like democracy as 55 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,880 an institution. And particularly, in which 56 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,280 environment are you stepping into? 57 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Yeah. So product itself I typically 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,480 call. It like a digital democracy 59 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,040 platform also. Operating system for digital. 60 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,640 Democracy. So what? 61 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:21,600 We're trying to achieve is like we're. 62 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,080 Addressing the problem of dissatisfaction with how 63 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,320 democracy functions. So this is where important. 64 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,720 We're not dressing. Like the issue? 65 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,560 Of unsatisfied or dissatisfaction with democracy 66 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,040 itself, but rather. Like how it works so the. 67 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,920 Process is behind and what we're. 68 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,560 Trying to achieve. Is more participation as the 69 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,320 first element. The second element is 70 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,600 transparency and the third one is accountability and what we 71 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,320 are doing in particular in order to. 72 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Address these topics as. First and foremost, we want to 73 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,960 give people a voice and opinion like that they can easily. 74 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,160 Share or voice their. Opinions by coming on our 75 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,360 website having like a chat interface. 76 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,960 There where? The chat interface gives them 77 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,280 the opportunity to voice their opinions, ask questions sticks. 78 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,720 Deeper just to get like a. Broader sense of. 79 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,080 The problem or the issue the person has? 80 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,840 And then we analyse it with artificial intelligence. 81 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,839 In order to route it directly. To the responsible politicians 82 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,519 or political actors. And then we give. 83 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,880 Those politicians like the whole tool kit or. 84 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,640 Set of governance tools in order to stay accountable to the to 85 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,520 their constituents and give updates on what they're doing. 86 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,160 So basically what we. Want to do? 87 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,280 There's like. Opening up the black. 88 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:39,160 Box of politics so Well, it's actually. 89 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,000 To be fair, it's not a black. Box. 90 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,200 It's rather like. The information is. 91 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,600 Out there, but it's it's very. Fragmented. 92 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,640 It's it's not very interconnected. 93 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,360 It's hard to get all this data. What what we are trying to 94 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,160 achieve with Nexus politics and that's also where our name comes 95 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,840 from, is to to bring all these components together like think 96 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:00,000 them on porn website. That's what Nexus stands for and 97 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,960 and they're giving a single entry point into politics. 98 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:04,880 Where it's where it's easy to see what's. 99 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,040 Going on, so you voice your opinion on Nexus politics? 100 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,560 And we we provide you with. All the information that are 101 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,560 relevant to. Your particular case so. 102 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,400 That could be like petitions that are going on that. 103 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,680 Could be like protests. That you could join, that could 104 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,200 be civic engagement movements that are trying to target your 105 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,480 particular issue and then also like giving you all the insights 106 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,200 and what Parliament have been discussing about your topic and 107 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,280 and so on. So that's it in a nutshell. 108 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,920 And how do you navigate the neutrality that you need to keep 109 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,000 in order to reflect upon the fragmented landscape and also 110 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,600 the opinionated positions of the different kind of the political 111 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,440 parties? That's a very good question. 112 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,200 So I I guess. 22 answers to that. 113 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,200 So first one, staying politically neutral as an 114 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,920 institution that are like like Nexus politics as an institution 115 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:02,400 by being first and foremost for. Profit rather than. 116 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,800 Not-for-profit. Because if it. 117 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,960 Would be not-for-profit, then I guess we would be highly 118 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,040 dependent on donations and we cannot credibly claim we are 119 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,000 politically independent and then being funded by organizations 120 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,640 that are typically leaning. Towards political goals and. 121 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,960 Political agendas in one way or the other. 122 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,960 And the other second pillar that we are relying on is 123 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,280 transparency from our side. So by either opening like 124 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,840 sharing our code or being transparent. 125 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:33,200 About our internal processes etcetera. 126 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,080 So these are the 2 two approaches. 127 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,400 We're we're using there. To credibly showcase our 128 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,040 political neutrality. And we talk a lot about tech in 129 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,440 this podcast, and you just share that you open source or share 130 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,640 like how your platform is being built and how do you do that? 131 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:55,200 So how would people be able to interact with what you're 132 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,280 building? And how do you also scale up 133 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,440 that particular platform in a way that it stays robust and is 134 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,840 able to follow through on the ambition that you've voiced? 135 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:10,880 We're. Building open source so everyone 136 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:16,280 can can see what we're doing, inviting people to to link to 137 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:17,960 our platform so we don't want to. 138 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,000 Build the whole. Ecosystem by ourselves. 139 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,600 So this is also very important, like whenever there's an A 140 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,200 platform out there. Like a tool. 141 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,960 In the political sphere like civic engagement or government 142 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,720 covenants, tool, that is. Willing to collaborate, We are 143 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:32,600 more than. Welcome. 144 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,120 Or they are more than welcome to do it. 145 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:35,600 With us and so. We want to share. 146 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,040 Our data as well. Also we're. 147 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,880 Sharing our data with academia, of course, on an anonymous level 148 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,760 just to make sure that we're not revealing any personal, personal 149 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,440 information. So it's that's important to to 150 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,720 mention here and yeah. We we are just. 151 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Open minded, so everyone who wants to work. 152 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,320 With us is more than. Welcome to work on this topic. 153 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,480 Because we are rather. Impact driven, so everyone. 154 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,960 Who helps us? Achieving our mission. 155 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,480 Is is welcome to to. Join our journey and you now 156 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,520 build up the system of like partners or those partners that 157 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,680 join your journey. And you carry a particular 158 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,320 responsibility because you also build up the system as a 159 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,240 platform. But you would at the same time 160 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,040 ensure that political positions, promises and decisions aren't 161 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:29,200 just like articulated, but they should stay accountable over 162 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,120 time. So that means that you also 163 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,480 navigate shifting opinions. How do you do that? 164 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,600 So the accountability part is ensured by first and foremost, 165 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:41,880 we're mapping public opinions. So we all living in. 166 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:43,640 Representative democracies, right? 167 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,960 So one of the first key components that you have to have 168 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,600 in a representative democracy is that you know what population 169 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,520 thinks what what. Actually. 170 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,440 Like what? What opinion people are holding, 171 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,040 and this is what we're doing with Nexus politics. 172 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,000 So we are mapping public opinion in real time, meaning we 173 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,000 showcase. It it's it's. 174 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,240 Transparent for everyone to see what Germany, what Bavaria of 175 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,080 what Munich is thinking about. A particular topic. 176 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,240 And then we can. Basically build this delta of 177 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,680 this gap. In between what what people 178 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:22,680 think on a representative level and also what politicians then 179 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,600 do about it. Yeah, this is. 180 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,880 I guess first and foremost by like showing. 181 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,640 The discrepancies in. Between the two and then and 182 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,760 then secondly. Of course we incorporate. 183 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,880 Other features similar to to platforms like UP, Got that 184 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,360 Watch etcetera they can. Hold your politicians. 185 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,120 Accountable in in that. Regard and so this is also 186 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,000 incorporated. In our platform and politicians 187 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,920 can transparently. Report about the. 188 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,400 Progress by themselves. But what we also. 189 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:53,640 Building into the platform is we are linking all the parliaments 190 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,320 with all the. Transcripts. 191 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,280 Of of the parliamentary sessions. 192 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,800 So we are also they are increasing transparency in the. 193 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,440 Processes and showcasing what? Has been done or what not has 194 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,400 hasn't been done in order. To address the. 195 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,080 Problems that people wise. To hold politicians accountable. 196 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,760 There and I do want to get to your founding story because it's 197 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,640 also quite interesting time for you to a founder startup and B 198 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:25,920 founded in a political context because we like realized that 199 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,840 the political landscape is also somewhat under pressure. 200 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,360 And what made you confident that this is the exact moment that 201 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,880 you want to found Nexus politics, but also that you 202 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,560 wanna get into politics itself to change something? 203 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:43,960 Good? Good question. 204 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,720 So I'm not sure. If it's the perfect. 205 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,320 Moment, but it's. It's a quite. 206 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,720 Good moment I guess. First of all, because I guess. 207 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,360 Political dissatisfaction is rising not just in Germany but 208 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,240 basically in all Western democracies, and this has been. 209 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,360 A process that. Did not just. 210 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,800 Start like yesterday it. Has been going on for like 211 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,080 10/10/15 years already, it's only it's only getting worse. 212 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,600 So trust is eroding. So something has to be done 213 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,920 about it. And yeah, what? 214 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,480 Why now? I guess there's also personal 215 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,000 aspects. Playing a role here. 216 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,120 So yeah, I met my. Co founder Christophe like 2 217 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,280 years ago. And then we started thinking 218 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,360 about. What are the biggest? 219 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,240 Pressing issues of our time and where do we contribute, Want to 220 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,200 contribute? And again and again, we came 221 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,360 back. To this topic of. 222 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,080 Dissatisfaction with how democracy works and. 223 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,920 I guess it's also. Like not just looking back in 224 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,720 terms of. Like it it has gotten worse but 225 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,720 also like the the prospects I guess. 226 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,440 We are facing so many important challenges going forward, also 227 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,760 in terms of. Like technological progress? 228 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,080 And what that means for our societies and our labour markets 229 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,600 and etcetera. And I think we have to have 230 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,960 these super important discussions now in terms of how 231 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,000 we want to deal with that and we want Nexus politics. 232 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,520 To be be. Like one part of the solution, I 233 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,320 like offering the platform to hold this super important 234 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,320 conversations about how we want to. 235 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,880 Structure our society. Going forward and how we. 236 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:17,880 Want to address these big big topics? 237 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,680 And most founders set themselves moon shot goals or like targets 238 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,040 that are hard to achieve. So can you share? 239 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,760 Do you want to share whether or not you have one? 240 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,680 But what would be the ideal impact, let's say 5 to 10 years 241 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:36,680 going forward that you have had looking back on your journey of 242 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:40,080 founding Nexus politics? Sure, I guess. 243 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,720 One of our role models is Audrey. 244 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,560 Chang, she was the digital minister in Taiwan and 245 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,960 implemented like a similar solution there, so. 246 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,200 They have. They have had. 247 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,480 Similar issues with like political dissatisfaction and. 248 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,040 Distrust into politics? And then what? 249 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,720 What she did is she heavily relied. 250 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,840 Or build, build a platform for like political participation and 251 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,560 like, really? Press the topic. 252 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,640 And I guess satisfaction. With democracy rose. 253 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,920 Significantly under her term and I think that. 254 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,360 Showcases that political tech tools like ours. 255 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,920 Can make an impact. Of course, it's always hard to 256 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,760 differentiate. Of course. 257 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,840 What's the? Particular impact of that 258 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,840 particular tool. Or was it rather? 259 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,720 Like just a general effect over time. 260 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,160 So to to disentangle all these effects. 261 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,840 That are going on at the same time, but I guess fast looking 262 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,360 ahead 10 years I guess. It would be a huge success. 263 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,000 If we don't have these debates anymore about societies falling 264 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,240 apart. Mistrusting each other, distrust 265 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,160 in politics, all these topics. That you can reach constantly 266 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,320 and then use. If those vanish or at least 267 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,840 become less frequently talked about, then that would be 268 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,640 already quite a significant contribution and on a on a more 269 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,160 specific level on Nexus. Politics, I guess. 270 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,800 What we would. Like to achieve is. 271 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,920 That when people think about tech and politics in the future, 272 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,760 but the first thing that comes to the mind is like Nexus 273 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:09,560 politics. So. 274 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,800 Think of LinkedIn for work. When you think of tech for work 275 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,080 then everyone thinks of LinkedIn and same pattern hopefully 276 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,800 builds in the future for for Nexus. 277 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,280 Politics. So that would be our goal. 278 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,640 Now this year, you've launched the platform and you've built it 279 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:28,080 and are evolving it iteratively. But up until now, what were the 280 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,880 hardest design decisions when you built your platform, 281 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,000 especially when it comes to the trust that you want to build 282 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,720 with, like the users on it and in connecting them to the 283 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,280 political environment? I guess the hardest part is 284 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,160 always reality. So reality in a sense that you 285 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,720 have this ideal path of how you. Would build your company. 286 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,320 So first you do this and then you do this and so on. 287 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:54,880 But of course. Founder. 288 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,360 Founder Journeys. Are very seldomly like this, so 289 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,960 typically you're dealing. With 1,000,000 things at the 290 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,560 same time, and this is also what? 291 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,120 What makes it hard? Because you cannot just. 292 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,160 Like build. Slowly and do. 293 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,640 It step by step, but of. Course you have to fundraise at 294 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,760 the same time you have to. You have to reach out already to 295 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,280 particular stakeholders. Do networking. 296 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,480 Etcetera, whilst you're still building the product and ideally 297 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,440 I guess you would first. Get a feedback, then build it, 298 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,800 then get feedback again on and that product and so on. 299 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,320 But yeah, it's it's not. Such a structured process. 300 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,120 To be honest, so it's not, it's not unfortunately. 301 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,000 Well, we're. We're trying our best I guess, 302 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,760 and. So far it's it's going rather 303 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,480 well, I would say. But yeah. 304 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,680 I mean, sometimes you you figure like something that you might 305 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,120 have built in in the past is actually not what do you think 306 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,200 politicians want to? Have that desperately or or 307 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,160 like. That citizens need that. 308 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:56,960 Desperate. Desperately so. 309 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,240 I mean, I guess it's an. Iterative learning. 310 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,280 Process from both sides. And yeah, we we are. 311 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,440 Way into it now and it's. Rather going well. 312 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:13,600 I like the rather again, that drives me exactly to the next 313 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,040 question. Where was the biggest surprise 314 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:21,440 for you in the iterative build up of the platform or maybe also 315 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,960 in, you know, realizing that you thought you want to have feature 316 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,000 and then it turned out that this was like the least preferred one 317 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,240 or you received feedback why and you desperately needed to pivot 318 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,040 or go in another direction. Did you have any of those 319 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,320 moments already? The the biggest surprise, I 320 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,720 guess was so far the very positive feedback that we got. 321 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,080 Generally, like, there's hardly, I mean. 322 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,520 That's that's also pro. Yeah, that's probably also 323 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,520 because what we are. Building we. 324 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,400 We we branded as a digital. Democracy platform and of. 325 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,280 Course, if your customers. Are politicians. 326 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,120 There's no politician who will tell you he does not like. 327 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,040 A digital democracy platform, but at. 328 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,160 The end of the day. You you only see. 329 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:08,880 Like when when they use the platform in the future or not. 330 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,560 Whether you really succeeded? In building something meaningful 331 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,520 for them, so and this has. Still to be decided. 332 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,040 Listening to you, it also could be that you're quite self 333 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,720 critical, because isn't that also a quite nice thing to have 334 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,480 to receive like positive feedback? 335 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,119 But of course, I also understand it's hard to estimate whether or 336 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,480 not you like are on the right track or not, particularly in 337 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,360 that environment. You just said that politicians 338 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,280 might not like they're, you wouldn't expect like a negative 339 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,240 feedback from them. Do you think that they are 340 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:45,640 equipped to enter the space of transparent communication in 341 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,280 that sense and to use like platforms and technology to 342 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,520 their respective positioning and to also voice their political 343 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,600 agenda? Yes, definitely, I guess. 344 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,120 We we see the. Adoption of of tools and the 345 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:05,880 political spaces very much increasing in in recent years. 346 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,560 So you can see it on on in all different regards. 347 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,600 Like be it like political tech conferences which grow. 348 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,400 Grow bigger and bigger each year. 349 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,120 You can see it in the start-ups popping up. 350 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:18,960 All over the place. Working on such solutions, you 351 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,400 can also see it on on government agencies so. 352 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,480 Sprint has been recently. Launched for golf. 353 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:30,080 Tech as well, like. Yeah, where you can just. 354 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,800 See, there's more public. Funding going into that sphere 355 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,920 and. Yeah, so that there's a. 356 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,520 Lot being done being worked on right now. 357 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,680 So I guess it's a, It's a. Good time to to work on, on that 358 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,680 particular topic and, and do you believe on solution, Do you 359 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,400 believe that tech can help rebuild democratic trust? 360 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,320 I guess so, Otherwise we. Wouldn't be doing it. 361 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,840 Simple answer now of. Course, I mean it's it's as 362 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,560 always in life, there's not just. 363 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,840 One side. Of it, there's always two sides, 364 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,920 so for tech it's the same. Like tech can be a solution, but 365 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:03,760 can also be a problem at the same time. 366 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,480 So two sides of the metal and. So far we are we have mostly 367 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:08,480 heard. About the negative. 368 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,800 Aspects of tech especially. In Germany. 369 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,680 That we that we are rather critical of like. 370 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,960 Social platforms like social media, how it divides our 371 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,840 democracies and stuff like that. But I guess it's also the. 372 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,000 End of the day, the solution because imagine a world without. 373 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,680 All of that stuff. I mean. 374 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,400 Would we really be? More united? 375 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,240 Or would it all be better? I don't know. 376 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:32,960 Because it's an. Also an enabler. 377 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,800 Technology and so many. Things have been created. 378 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,880 Out of these connections that were made on social media or so 379 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,320 many initiatives. Were started just recently. 380 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,600 When we went to Copenhagen for the for the rebuild conference, 381 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,240 I guess I don't know if something like that. 382 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,400 Would have worked without. Social media, bringing all these 383 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,640 people together, making people aware of these initiatives going 384 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,640 on and. So therefore, yeah, it's it's a 385 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,560 2 sided sword. We try to Polish the the other 386 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,360 side. A little more now with tech as a 387 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,840 solution to the to the whole thing rather than being a 388 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,000 problem. How do you navigate the risks, 389 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,960 but also the opportunities to it. 390 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,920 So you've just highlighted in tech being A2 sided sword, but I 391 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,160 mean the IT flips right? Depending on the use case and 392 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,240 the interaction that you have with the the the platform, it 393 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,040 becomes difficult to estimate or maybe we also to navigate how do 394 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,640 you approach that as a company? It's a good question. 395 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,560 I guess by by. Testing you, you would. 396 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,600 See. Like how? 397 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,520 People interact with your. Product How? 398 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,640 People use it and what kind of outcomes it creates and. 399 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,840 Of course we have our KPIs that we're we're. 400 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,120 Trying to measure and this gives you insights into what kind of 401 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,720 outcome you're you're achieving with what you intended at the 402 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,360 beginning. And of course there can be 403 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,520 discrepancies in between what you think might be the outcome 404 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,320 come and also in terms of what actually is the outcomes. 405 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,720 My background is in behavioural economics and I guess there. 406 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,360 Are 1,000,000. Interesting examples of good 407 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:08,080 intentions and bad outcomes. So one has to be. 408 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,800 Very careful about what what you build. 409 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,200 There and. How it will be used because? 410 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,880 Everything can be misused. As well so. 411 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,320 Even if you have the best. Product it also. 412 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:19,640 At the end of the day, also depends. 413 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,120 On how the people. Use it and. 414 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:26,040 This can be taken into account when you design it, but only to 415 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,920 such an extent and. For the rest, you have to be 416 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,560 able to reiterate. Work on it constantly improve it 417 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,120 and see what. What the use cases are? 418 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,720 Absolutely want to go into the user aspects of it and talk a 419 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,520 bit about the ways that user interact with like politics on a 420 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,280 like macro level and then translated into what you provide 421 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,840 in terms of platform. What is the biggest challenge 422 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,720 for you in user behaviour currently or maybe also voter 423 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,040 behaviour? Basically to have them trust you 424 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,360 in using your platform for them to form an opinion about the 425 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,000 political. Yeah, good question. 426 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,480 So I guess. We are having the same problems. 427 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,680 As every other startup, at the beginnings you're just first of. 428 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,480 All one player out there and why should. 429 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,880 Citizens, people trust you rather. 430 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,800 Than anyone else. So I guess. 431 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,160 It's very important. To showcase how you deal with 432 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:27,760 like the data. So for us. 433 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,880 It's like for instance, we. Are we are fully. 434 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,160 Compliant with GDPR. The AI Directive. 435 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,440 And and so on. So this. 436 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,640 Is not just because we have to, because. 437 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,920 It's it's one of our core promises. 438 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,120 I guess to our users that we, yeah. 439 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,240 For instance, like in Germany, it's a, it's a. 440 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,400 Big topic that your data is hosted. 441 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,440 In Germany, or at least the European Union. 442 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,240 So we are fully. Compliant with that and and and. 443 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,520 Other aspects of it. This is 1 aspect, so the legal 444 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,080 and compliance. Part of it. 445 00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:01,680 Then it's. Also like how you approach the 446 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,800 whole. Situation in terms of who you 447 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,800 partner with, like the institutions you're supported by 448 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,720 etcetera that can be trust building for our. 449 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,720 Case it's we are. Both alumni of the Technical 450 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,160 University of Manic. So we're strongly embedded in 451 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,680 the local ecosystem here. We're part of the term 452 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,360 incubator. We're supported by the. 453 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,080 Professorship of. Policy analysis at the Technical 454 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,080 University, but then again, we also part of different other 455 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,960 initiatives, for instance, the Munich Impact Incubator. 456 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,680 So we are one of the one of five impact start-ups in the city of 457 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,760 Munich and also Social Impact Republic, for instance, who help 458 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,280 us refine our impact model and yeah, make. 459 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,560 Sure that we achieve. Our very ambitious impact. 460 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,280 Goals. And when you have institutions 461 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,080 like these supporting you? I guess this is. 462 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,800 Trust building and and helps others. 463 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,440 Yeah, to to. Overcome this initial scepticism 464 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,960 that I fully understand when you are navigating the, the online 465 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,960 sphere that you just don't share your, your data with any 466 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,280 platform out there. And yeah, then I'll, as 467 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,160 mentioned earlier, general approach about transparency. 468 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,920 Interestingly, you just named some of the like prominent 469 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,840 voices in the ecosystem for startups here in Munich. 470 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,600 So we both are based out of Munich and are quite familiar 471 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,360 with the context here. And when we met last time, I 472 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,560 remember a sentence that you said and you said if we fail, 473 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,920 then it's definitely up to us because the ecosystem is so 474 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:41,360 strong that that it can't be due to, you know, the lack of 475 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:45,040 support, for example. And I needed to smile. 476 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,120 And at the same time, I do want to ask you what the support 477 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:52,040 means to you and what makes Munich as a founding city or 478 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,840 founder city so special, if it's the ecosystem, the support or 479 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,160 maybe something else that you helps you enter, like the 480 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,280 journey that you're on. Yeah, I think I. 481 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:06,800 I still. Still think that the statement 482 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,440 that I made. Back then is right, so we have 483 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,480 a. Super amazing ecosystem here in 484 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,440 Munich that supports us or The thing is that there are million. 485 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,320 Ways to fail. But typically just one or two. 486 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,320 Hard to be right so that that makes it of course tricky at the 487 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,520 end of the day. To church like. 488 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,160 Where we where it all went wrong? 489 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,720 It's definitely real. That's just pressure is awesome. 490 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,680 Just hatching myself here. No, just kidding, just kidding. 491 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,600 But I guess overall. What? 492 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,480 What does the support mean to? Us first of first and foremost, 493 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,280 of course. It's like the financial support. 494 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,400 That that we get so we are exist. 495 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,080 Funded so that's. Quite a big privilege. 496 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,280 Of having the opportunity to dedicate. 497 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,400 Like a whole year to your project. 498 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,080 Work on, work on it. See what opportunities are 499 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,440 there. So not everyone has that. 500 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,280 Then secondly, we we got financial support by the city of 501 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:02,960 Munich. So that's very good to have. 502 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,880 But then it's also like the opportunities, like so many. 503 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,200 People who deeply care about our project, Who? 504 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,520 Reach out to me whenever they see something so we I feel like 505 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,880 I have a million eyes. Keeping eye on every 506 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,560 opportunity. Out there which I. 507 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,880 Myself would not be. Able to to do so. 508 00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:24,000 This is like super helpful. And then like the amazing amount 509 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,040 of talent that you have in Munich with all these super good 510 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,280 universities around. So that helps. 511 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,240 Quite a lot. All these events that are taking 512 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,840 place where you can showcase your solutions, get get 513 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,520 feedback. Etcetera. 514 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,920 So this is also super. Valuable, yeah. 515 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,720 So kudos. Well done the. 516 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,320 Munich ecosystem is really good. Especially also in comparison to 517 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,840 two other. Cities. 518 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,080 So I guess there are only a. Few that might be. 519 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,560 Better, but yeah, fast. It's the perfect. 520 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,160 Place to build and yeah, we're. Quite happy to be. 521 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,920 Based in Munich and well, we're not just based based in Unix. 522 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,720 So now we have a team for all over Germany basically, but the 523 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,560 core team is here and that's where we take part in the 524 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,880 ecosystem. Is there any point of view that 525 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,000 you have on the discussion that is currently going on in terms 526 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:18,400 of financial funding based out of Europe versus the US and what 527 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,760 the particular differences are, especially when it comes to 528 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,360 scaling startup? I mean, you're quite early on 529 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,160 your journey, but probably you have either put a thought into 530 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,800 it or at least like you have an opinion about how whole 531 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,280 discussion is being formed. Yeah, good question, I think. 532 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,320 It's right what most people say, that it's the the. 533 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,400 Probably bigger funding opportunities in the US than in 534 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,520 Europe, but it's not just funding, it's also like. 535 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,720 The. The level of integration. 536 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,360 That that's a hindrance. Here in Europe, so we're talking 537 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:57,680 now about EU Inc, which should be implemented pretty soon. 538 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,400 I guess that would be a big improvement, but. 539 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,320 Yeah, I, I. Think at the end of the day, 540 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,720 you're building for local, local markets and we see our core 541 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,200 market here here in Europe at the beginning, at least at the 542 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,200 end of the. Day our products our. 543 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,640 Platform scales to all representative democracy, so we 544 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,920 can also. See ourselves going to the US, 545 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,480 Australia or other. Countries where? 546 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,400 Where we have similar problems but. 547 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,840 Funding wise, yeah. I guess it's true like the the 548 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,440 early. The early funding is quite 549 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,200 sufficient. But then there's the so-called 550 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,880 Valley of. Death, you're in between the 551 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,920 like your MVP and and scaling your product and. 552 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,040 This is I guess that the biggest problem. 553 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,440 We're having in Germany right now. 554 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,960 Maybe also in Europe. That that many promising ideas. 555 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,880 Start-ups. Fail in this period and because 556 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,040 we have brilliant people here in Germany, brilliant people in 557 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,120 Europe who who can build and can change the world for their. 558 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,560 Products, but it's. It's on us to support them on 559 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,080 this. Critical step from. 560 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,600 Like being like a a small solution or having an MVP up to 561 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,240 making it big and and the. US has. 562 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,240 Way more experience, I guess in, in terms of doing that, but 563 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,880 we're catching up. Quickly. 564 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,720 I guess so. You can see all these 565 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,320 initiatives in Europe forming also like rebuilding in 566 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:16,920 Copenhagen that I mentioned already. 567 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,160 Yeah, I'm, I'm very optimistic. That this get might. 568 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,720 Also, at least become smaller smaller in the future and 569 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,880 become. Less, less, less of a hindrance 570 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,080 to. To built in Europe. 571 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,200 What a great outlook. I I'm curious to follow that 572 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,240 along with what particularly that means to you. 573 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,720 And since we're now coming to the end of our conversation and 574 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,400 the podcast episode, I want to take some in between moments 575 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,960 with you, which are intuitive reflections and that you would 576 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,280 answer with like a one word or a very short sentence. 577 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,360 And the first moment that I want to put out there is what trust 578 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,520 in politics feels like to you. It should be improved. 579 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,800 So that's my answer. And what should technology never 580 00:29:58,800 --> 00:29:59,960 do? Divide people. 581 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,920 And what needs democracy more of Nexus politics? 582 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,320 And when does civic participation break? 583 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,960 When there's no trust anymore. And is there a word that you as 584 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,720 a person, founder, dad are currently in between? 585 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,760 That's the trickiest question. I guess we're. 586 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,000 We're we're in between like having our product now and and 587 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,120 scaling it and they are, yeah. This is where we are right now. 588 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,560 So it's it's, it's our current situation that. 589 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,280 Would be my answer. Amazing. 590 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,720 Thank you for the conversation and for taking us along on your 591 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,480 founders and politician or politics journey at the 592 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,360 intersection of tech, tech, trust and democracy. 593 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,040 And I'm curious follow along. Was a pleasure thanks Ava for. 594 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,480 Having me on the. Podcast yeah would be very 595 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,280 excited if all of. Your listeners. 596 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,440 Could visit our website and yeah, please give it a try. 597 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,640 Yeah, looking forward to. What's ahead of us? 598 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,960 Thank you everyone. Amazing. 599 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,320 I'll also link it in the show notes. 600 00:30:58,600 --> 00:30:58,960 Bye.