Hello this is. Eva, and you're listening to the
In Between Tech and Trust podcast.
In this week's episode, we dive deep into the intersection of
creativity and ethics because my guest this week is one of the
experts talking about exactly that intersection.
And I'm joined by Ivona Flouda, and she is founder of the
Ministry of Creativity and also the head of AI and Content
growth at Dream Leap. And together, we focus at the
intersection of tech, trust, creativity, and ethics.
And we also do want to talk about what kind of
responsibility each and every one of us has, but also how it
can be distributed on an organizational level.
There are some examples that Evona shares from her
experiences in collaborating with different kinds of
companies about the implementation of AI in the
creative industries, but also how technology governance and
inclusivity become even more important in the AI era.
How we also need to focus on cultural and societal adoption
to automation, the potentials of the inclusive design in
organizations, and why, in her opinion, it's so important to
talk about the design choices that shape long term societal
outcomes. I'm so happy to have you on the
In Between podcast session for today, Ivona, And I'm looking
forward to our conversation on the context of tech, trust,
creativity, but also the impacts of ethics together.
It's really amazing to be here. Thank you for the invitation.
And before we dive into like the hard facts of it all, I would
love to hear your take on what comes to your mind first when we
look into the intersection of tech and trust, and also what
context you find yourself in when it's trading on it.
I really love this question because what comes to my mind is
actually the lack of trust and not trust itself.
You know, we know trust from the very human perspective.
We trust each other or we don't trust each other.
We don't have yet this connection, this trustful
connection established with technology at all.
And of course, what doesn't help here is that we don't really
trust the big corporations behind the tools that are being
created and that we are using very naively very often.
So I don't think that we have yet the trust itself between us
individuals and the tools, but also between us individuals, our
community, our society and the big corporations.
I think the lack of stress is something that definitely need
to address here. And if you look into your past
and experiences and like being also at the forefront of the
topic, was there a moment that you experienced, be it with like
projects or colleagues or also in Society of when you realize
that AI would fundamentally or like, let's say, reshape
creativity, not just enhance it? And maybe that's also to widen
the perspective and not just AI, but also technology in itself.
Absolutely. I feel like there were many
moments like this. I was very lucky to jump very
early into the AI tools and just test them.
I was just very curious about all of the things of the
interfaces and the technologies behind that.
But then I realized that, well, there's something is changing
here. Because at the very beginning we
talked about a lot about our AI tools as collaborators.
AI told us amplifiers, our skills, but we also discovered
down the line that actually the AI tools are actually pretty
dangerous for our brains as well.
We learn, for example, thanks to the MIT Media Lab studies that
when we outsource our knowledge to AI tools, that we just don't
engage our brains with AI tools properly.
Then we kind of, we are getting Dumber, just to summarize the
very long studies. And that's something that really
changed something within me and the way how approach AI tools.
And that's actually true because what happens is that we just
don't engage our brain. Our brain just doesn't work
properly. We outsource everything to AI
tools. Therefore we don't have the, we
don't create the needed connections for the brain parts
to, to connect together. And I feel like that's very
dangerous long term because it just basically makes us not just
Dumber as we say, but also it makes us kind of immune towards
knowledge and creating knowledge and creating new neural
connections. And I feel like that's much more
dangerous in general when it comes to creativity.
We know for example, right now from different studies that over
50% of content that we see on LinkedIn is not human generated,
is AI generated. So here's also a question, is it
OK or not? You know, I'm a little bit
biased because I love creating and I love writing and I do it
very often and I try to engage with my creative manual and
community skills. But I know that most people
don't or many people I know also in my environment don't do it.
So the question is, what do we do with that on the individual,
individual level, but also on the community and societal
level? When we think about creating a
generation that doesn't engage cognitively with topics is
creating again like a more creating generation that is not
going to be able able to question things in a way and
that can have a disastrous result in general for the.
Future. If you paint that picture of the
future, I could also just ask, well, are we doomed?
But knowing you and also from our previous conversations, I
know that you're not the perception that we're doomed.
On the contrary, you also see it as I quite the opportunity.
However, to me, it feels like that you propose that we're at a
crossroads of like particularly creativity, but also ethics and
emerging tech. And according to you, your
experience, and also the way that you engage with thought
leaders, what do you think is the biggest cultural shift that
you see happening as AI becomes a tool or a competitor in
creative work? So first of all, you're totally
right. One side is a very dark side of
the future we can picture. The other side is a very light
or our right side. I feel like what we need to do,
we need to kind of give ourselves the grace of holding 2
very opposite possibilities in our hands and say like, look,
this can happen. This can also happen.
What can we do about this? How can we find the balance and
the in betweens that will enable us to make sure that individuals
but also society at large retries through the
transformation that we're all going through anyway.
So actually it's both. And when I think about this, you
know, outsourcing our creative skills to social media, to AI
tools, it's happening already. But what is also happening is
that creative people like marketeers, you know, people in
the field, right, they're losing their jobs because of AI tools.
So that's a huge change. And when I think about this, at
the very beginning, everyone was talking about, oh, yeah, we are
going to automate everything. Therefore people are going to
have more time. Therefore, we are going to have
more time to get more creative and to engage with our
creativity. That's for now, but that's not
the case yet. For now, we see people losing
their jobs and being basically laid off in thousands and
thousands, especially in the US When we see what is happening,
they're also on the technological front.
So you cannot tell me that we are in the position of just
amplifying our creativity and be happy.
We need to find kind of a way to create a system that will enable
us to thrive financially, mentally and creative
creatively, and we are not there yet at all.
You're not even thinking about those.
Topics And now you know me, and you also know that my perception
is quite like, I don't necessarily think that everyone,
like every creative, is gonna be losing its job.
On the contrary, I do think that creativity hasn't been more
important than ever. I would want to pick your brain
because you just phrased it quite absolutely that you know
they are laid off. But I do think that there are
some reasons behind and that is not only through like due to AI.
On the one hand side, I do think it's like, sorry to say, but
shitty processes that have been implemented and then have been
held up for quite some time. And on the other side, I also
think that AI in itself is not necessarily or in essence
appreciated in the in, in a sense that it provides towards
the quality or the broadening up the opportunities for thinking
creatively. And would love to hear your
thought on that statement because?
You just you just pointed out so many different things and I
think that the secrets are here really in the nuances of what we
are talking about. But you mentioned for, you know,
laying of people, that's of course very complex and not it's
also basically because of the system that have been created
over the generation that doesn't necessarily or haven't
necessarily served us at all. You know, on the larger scale,
we can also put it this way, you know, therefore, with AI tools
and the full, full automation of the processes and system, we
will have the opportunity to free our our time and to get
more engaged with creativity. On the other hand, when we think
about creativity and arts, for example, you cannot tell me that
creativity is the most important and the most appreciated tool
and skill in the world because it's not.
People who have been challenging the status quo have been
creatives and outliers and rebels.
They haven't been historically very much appreciated.
And I always think about, you know, the examples of Van Gogh,
you know, I do not need your money when I'm dead.
I need your money when I'm an artist leaving and trying to
thrive and not when when I'm not here any longer.
So I feel like we need to change the narrative around creativity.
Concept doesn't have a survival skill because that's what I know
about creativity is our first and primal historically the most
important survival skill. But we cannot just engage with a
a tools and say right now, OK, and they it was grand Faidan.
They can and they will for sure. And if we teach people and use
AI tools ourselves in the smart way, AI tools are just the best
business partner partners for me ever.
Absolutely. But there are many people who
don't know yet how to use AI tools.
Therefore, it's, you know, that would we need to optimize or
teaching people how to use their own creativity first and then
they can use AI tools in a very conscious and definitely better
way than they have been doing that so far.
An instant question that I had What do you know about
creativity that most of us don't know?
I know that when we combine the cognitive creative skills and
the manual creative skills, and when we find the Enlightenment
within ourselves combining both of them, then the magic happens.
I am 100% convinced of that. Unfortunately, most of us are
living here in our brains. Not many of us are using
creative manual skills and tools.
And I would urge everyone to do so.
I would urge everyone to buy a notebook and a pen and start
writing. And because I feel like that's
that's where the beautiful connectivity, the the beautiful
human creativity really contrives.
And then on a larger perspective, and also from your
experience, work and engagement in the creative community, you
distinguish between the individual, like the community
and the societal aspects of creative transformation.
And if you look into the tech aspects of it, what are pressure
points that AI puts on these layers or what are empowerment
momentums that can be used in order to engage with it largely?
So for me, first of all, you're to tell me, right, we actually
really should distinguish between individual committee and
cycle levels when it comes to the influence of AI when it
comes to and I'm speaking from my experience right now.
So for me, the I tools are great enablers and amplifiers of my
work, no question for many people in my community as well,
because they know how to use the tools.
Many people don't know. So here's again the question
about the educating people and teaching them how to use those
properly. Nevertheless, on the more
community level and creative industry level done, there is
this movement of we can now all become creative people and
become artists and we can sell our art pieces, which is great.
You know, that's my story as well.
I started creating art pieces and I started selling them.
But imagine that everyone, we can become an artist
automatically and we are by basically automating the
creative aspects and processes to the AI tools again.
And I feel like that's where I see the problem because
creativity is again something more than just creating a
beautiful picture or enabling an AI tool to create a beautiful
picture is the whole process. Me as an artist I like creator
needs to go through to really transform myself from inside out
but also to bring the best foods of my inner words to the world
in general. And if we now look into the way
that also ethics in the context of like, you know, how creatives
use tools and so on plays a role, you are also like one of
the voices who foreign that if our institutions are non
inclusive, our AI systems will be non inclusive as well.
I would be curious to learn from you what true inclusivity and AI
looks like. And also in the context of
creativity, how can we make it more of an invitation for a
diversity in order for not replicating existing structural
challenges? That's an.
Amazing question and again, you just ask me about a broader
societal issue, but we can of course kind of point it out and
boil it down to to the AI tools themselves and the ethics.
What I feel is needed here is a different type of design of any
technology in general, not just AI tools and the design, maybe
the foundations of this design should be the radical
inclusivity. How that's how I call it.
Basically, we include every voice as much as we can, of
course, in the very utopian and magic word, of course, every,
every voice, every story is included.
But let's see, let's say we don't live in that world yet,
but we live in the world where we actually have access to
knowledge and information and possible different variety of
voices. We just don't use them or we
don't acknowledge them as something visible and needed.
And that's kind of where I see the challenge.
And one of the, I believe one of the best examples of that is
what I experienced this year when I went to the AI for Good
summit in Geneva here in Switzerland.
It was a fantastic discussion about exactly this AI and the
inclusivity. And one gentleman I, I spoke to
told me, look, we are designing this amazing tool and we are
going to include the just the indigenous voices.
And you know, on one hand, I'm thinking that's great.
You know, we're going to have finally a tool where where the
system is based on the data and the information that we don't
have usually access to. On the other hand, why do we
again create another tool just to amplify one side of the
story? We could also create one
coherent tour when we have all of the stories and therefore we
have better foundation for better and more diverse output
in general. So I would advise and I would
definitely raise more awareness about the radical inclusivity
when it comes to creating any tool, not just AI tools in.
General, but isn't that hard for organizations to do?
I mean, you know, radical inclusivity is something that is
the most complex thing that I could see teams, people,
organizations to live by and to be very clear on what that
actually means for them because it's so individual on the
context. It's so individual on the stance
that you take or how would like, if I would say, OK, I want to, I
want to live radical inclusivity.
What what would I have to do and strive by in order for it to
become reality. Now what?
You're. Mentioning is so important
because you are mentioning how the current system has been
designed. Radical inclusivity hasn't been
part of that and though therefore we are actually facing
so many challenges in the world this day.
But we know also that when we include different voices and
diverse voices and perspectives, then the outputs is better,
therefore the solutions are better, therefore the results
are better, therefore the problem solving the whole
process is completely different and the whole kind of output,
long term output is completely different.
What we are talking about here is rather again, the design of
the systems and technologies where things like ethics and
inclusivity are not the primary priority of any institution.
They're rather nice to have maybe in the future output or
maybe in the future when someone complaints and the new law is in
place, then we might consider putting that or you know,
creating like a say a department with one person where we were
just talk about inclusivity. But that's ABS that it just
doesn't work really very well for anyone long term.
And that's the main challenge that we face, that we kind of
consider ethics as long term ethics and inclusivity in
general as long term possible priorities instead of putting
them on the agenda from the very first stage.
I know it's difficult, and I know that's not necessarily
something that many organizations will do, but they
also know that if you want, our aim is to improve the society
and to ensure the longevity of the planet Earth.
Well, we should have started that already, you know, decades
ago. And where does responsibility
lie in that regard? Because coming back to the
individual, the team and then the organizational societal
level that you speak about, what is my role in that agency?
What is the organization context that I'm in?
What is the societal 1 and who's responsible and designing for
inclusive? I feel like on one hand,
everyone is responsible and I wish and I hope for the future
that really all of our voices would be heard.
So first of all, that we would believe that we have the right
to voice our concerns, which is not the case in most of the
institutions I have spoke to at all.
But second of all, with this kind of self agency and self
leadership that we developed because the let's say naively,
but also optimistically, let's say the, the community, the
departments, the company itself allows us to be ourselves and to
bring those things forward. Then of course, when we have the
self agency and self leadership, of course our goal would be to
design. We just see kind of the long
term results of our work, not just the shortened thinking of
the possible financial gains. And that should be, that's more
like from the bottom, from the both bottom up, but also top
down perspective. You know, it should come from
every individual and we should design the the organizations in
a way that they would allow us to make this happen.
But again, it's a very utopian ways of thinking.
It doesn't exist that much at all these days.
But I mean, you can always, you know, put it out there and see
of how you what, how to design the way to get there.
But if we talk design and if we talk current technologies and if
we talk about how organizations are structured, we look a lot
into the way of how they are influenced by AI, in particular
tech infrastructure in specifics.
And then even more specifically AI agents.
And now AI agents are, you know, the, I always call them, they
are parts of optimization of particular process steps.
And you've advised a lot of companies on how to build it up,
also how to design it also potentially how to design it for
inclusivity. And what is the biggest tension,
according to your experience of what you've observed between
efficiency is ethics and and the way that teams collaborate?
It's a great question. So I think the main tension of
that I have observed is that regardless of already existing
policies and law related to a security for example, and you
know the EUAA Act and so on and so forth, not many companies are
yet there to even consider that as kind of the baseline for
their work. So that's a huge tension for me
that not just that's kind of. You know, it's more like, oh,
let's see what happens. It's not yet that important.
Therefore we are continue our work and let's just ignore
everything else. That's a huge tension
nevertheless. And thankfully there are a few
organizations also in the German speaking countries, a few
companies who as a foundation and design of their business
consider ethics and security kind of the most important part
of their businesses. And I think that the huge, for
me personally, there's a huge hope that this type of
institutions were really emotional in the future here
because people will realize, hey, there is much more in place
here than our short term gains. Let us recreate something
sustainable for the society. Sustainable is a broad word.
It's also something that a lot of companies struggle with
because it requires continuous iterations in cooperation of
oversight and so on. But if we now look into the way
of how they incorporate AI powered creative tools and
potentially also the way of how they automate the way that they
work, what surprised you the most when you were working with
your clients? Exactly the topics that I
actually just mentioned. Also right now under tensions
maybe lack of. I wouldn't say lack of knowledge
but rather ignorance and short term thinking.
That surprised me a lot. I think fully not everyone I
work with thinks this way and and acts this way, but the
majority they do unfortunately because they don't see, I feel
like what is needed here or they don't see the bigger picture or
they don't have the more holistic you know overview of
what happens if you know, we don't think about creating a
business for the next 100 years. We are thinking about how can we
survive this quarter and that's a short.
I feel like we need to implement both the long term and short
term thinking in designing any business, not just a
technological business. And you mentioned also again
sustainability. You know, from my perspective,
none of the businesses I have ever met in the technology are
sustainable businesses. It's a myth.
It's you know, you know, greenwashing in a way
technological greenwashing. It just doesn't exist because
unless you know, you have some examples, but by default and how
the system right now works. So if you consider that we are
powered by by oil, it doesn't sustain 1.
So thank you very much. You know your whole debate about
sustainability of your business is just over.
There was a lot of energy in the in the past couple of minutes.
Why is that so where does that come from?
What is the energetic part for you that you're so passionate
about that? I feel like, you know, in a way
where they observe, and I have spent many years working also in
marketing and having my business in marketing communication, you
know, bridging the creativity technology in for many years.
And I observed also with the businesses that claim to be
green and sustainable and whatever you name it, you know,
beautiful hashtags for social media, They're not.
And the problem that we have actually right now in the
society at large is that we are kidding ourselves.
We believe that if something is marked as vegan or marked as
whatever sustainable that it must be 100%.
And very often it's just not. And we need to kind of look at
all of those things with this length of how can we improve
what we know that is already wrong instead of how can we hide
what we know is wrong. And we are more on the side of
how can we hide those things So no one discovers that the video
we are not that green or that we are not that good.
And I think that's a huge problem.
But from my perspective, everything comes back to us as
individuals and how we actually who we are as human beings, how
we in the world, what level of responsibility do we want to
take for things that we are doing and Co creating.
That's everything. And unfortunately it's not
always the case that people are vital angels and just want to
they want to say the word. Very often there are kind of
different things in play, but I don't judge that.
For me, it's more like, let us just have this deep and
important discussions about what is happening before because
actually with AI, we have this opportunity in this
responsibility to ensure that it will serve the next generations
or it will again destroy things that we are having in the world.
So it's how to avoid things that are going to happen because
they're going to happen anyway. But how can we re individually
and then with the decisions that we are making, ensure that long
term our impact is is is just positive for everyone involved?
Why does that feel so existential with AI in
particular? I mean, we've been at crossroads
for, for me at least, like every now and then, or if you want to
say like every 7 to 15 years, why now?
Why is it now so crucial and clear and so uncertain for you?
Especially this topic, especially the ethics of
technology is because I observe that again, we are kidding
ourselves and we need to just face the reality of what is
happening. But also, there are already
specialist experts in this field.
For example, Roman Yampolsky, who is a ethicist who speaks
about 97% of the global population is going to lose, you
know, their job in the next years.
So what do you do with 97 or 99? I don't remember the right
number, but what do you do with the whole global society without
the jobs knowing that people are not prepared.
Many people just strive within the corporations.
People are just not prepared for this transformation in general.
Living in the year of 2025, also realizing that we have a lot of
heritage, looking forward into the future for some time and
assuming that 99% of people won't be having a job is, I
think, in my opinion, the statement.
And also seeing of how the current economy works and of how
people are not knowledgeable of the way that they AI use is
something that I think is to be discussed and also to be seen.
And I think there are some routes that you can also
calculate and also how you can look into.
But I would love to hear your thoughts on why you particularly
are so convinced that this is kind of happening.
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, just to make it clear.
I feel like what I like about this big statements and I think
that Roman Yampolsky really has his expertise to share this this
knowledge with us, right? So I trust his Dartmouth.
But what I like about this is that it really make it makes us
think, you know, it makes us think about the future in a way
that there's that's absolutely crazy exponential growth.
There will be things that will have to change within the
society to adapt as soon as we can.
For me personally, Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.
Please automate absolutely everything.
I want to go to the mountains and hike and write books and
that's everything. You know, I have no doubt that
they will find dozens of ways to engage my time, but to engage
myself with different things, no question at all.
I'm just afraid that or you know, I'm just thinking that
many people don't have this luxury that they would feel like
OK right now. You know, people just very often
don't know what they want to do. Therefore, the structures that
we are within these days, especially at different
organizations and corporations, they make their lives better and
easier and safer in a way. That's not my path, but I do
know many people will feel really extremely happy with the
current situation, you know, on the job market, for example.
And I guess that is the best moment to say to be continued
and to like look into the way of how it actually plays out.
And since we now get into, you know, the end of our
conversation, then also look into some so-called in between
moments with you. These are moments that I have
with my guests on short, intuitive reflections.
And like really what I would love for you to do is just come
up with one word, 1 sentence that comes to your mind when I
ask you starting with creativity and 2030 feels for you.
Like what? Freedom and what?
Should I? I never do.
Replace human love. What are ways to to redesign
systems that we need to do or act upon first?
We need to come back to our humanity.
And what does? What causes you the most?
Worries, ignorance and stupidity.
And what gives you hope? Deep conversations and smart
people I am surrounded by. I think that's a perfect ending
to a quite insightful and, well, vast conversation.
We covered a lot of topics, and it's great to have some sort of,
you know, cliffhanger for an upcoming conversation in, let's
say, one to five years and see where we've been headed.
The latest Amber for now. Thank you so much for sharing
all your insights and yeah, discussing the intersection of
tech and trust. With us.
Thank you. Great to be here.