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Hello this is. 
Eva, and you're listening to the

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In Between Tech and Trust 
podcast. 

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In this week's episode, we dive 
deep into the intersection of 

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creativity and ethics because my
guest this week is one of the 

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experts talking about exactly 
that intersection. 

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And I'm joined by Ivona Flouda, 
and she is founder of the 

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Ministry of Creativity and also 
the head of AI and Content 

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growth at Dream Leap. 
And together, we focus at the 

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intersection of tech, trust, 
creativity, and ethics. 

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And we also do want to talk 
about what kind of 

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responsibility each and every 
one of us has, but also how it 

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can be distributed on an 
organizational level. 

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There are some examples that 
Evona shares from her 

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experiences in collaborating 
with different kinds of 

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companies about the 
implementation of AI in the 

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creative industries, but also 
how technology governance and 

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inclusivity become even more 
important in the AI era. 

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How we also need to focus on 
cultural and societal adoption 

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to automation, the potentials of
the inclusive design in 

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organizations, and why, in her 
opinion, it's so important to 

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talk about the design choices 
that shape long term societal 

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outcomes. 
I'm so happy to have you on the 

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In Between podcast session for 
today, Ivona, And I'm looking 

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forward to our conversation on 
the context of tech, trust, 

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creativity, but also the impacts
of ethics together. 

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It's really amazing to be here. 
Thank you for the invitation. 

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And before we dive into like the
hard facts of it all, I would 

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love to hear your take on what 
comes to your mind first when we

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look into the intersection of 
tech and trust, and also what 

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context you find yourself in 
when it's trading on it. 

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I really love this question 
because what comes to my mind is

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actually the lack of trust and 
not trust itself. 

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You know, we know trust from the
very human perspective. 

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We trust each other or we don't 
trust each other. 

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We don't have yet this 
connection, this trustful 

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connection established with 
technology at all. 

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And of course, what doesn't help
here is that we don't really 

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trust the big corporations 
behind the tools that are being 

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created and that we are using 
very naively very often. 

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So I don't think that we have 
yet the trust itself between us 

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individuals and the tools, but 
also between us individuals, our

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community, our society and the 
big corporations. 

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I think the lack of stress is 
something that definitely need 

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to address here. 
And if you look into your past 

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and experiences and like being 
also at the forefront of the 

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topic, was there a moment that 
you experienced, be it with like

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projects or colleagues or also 
in Society of when you realize 

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that AI would fundamentally or 
like, let's say, reshape 

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creativity, not just enhance it?
And maybe that's also to widen 

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the perspective and not just AI,
but also technology in itself. 

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Absolutely. 
I feel like there were many 

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moments like this. 
I was very lucky to jump very 

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early into the AI tools and just
test them. 

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I was just very curious about 
all of the things of the 

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interfaces and the technologies 
behind that. 

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But then I realized that, well, 
there's something is changing 

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here. 
Because at the very beginning we

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talked about a lot about our AI 
tools as collaborators. 

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AI told us amplifiers, our 
skills, but we also discovered 

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down the line that actually the 
AI tools are actually pretty 

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dangerous for our brains as 
well. 

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We learn, for example, thanks to
the MIT Media Lab studies that 

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when we outsource our knowledge 
to AI tools, that we just don't 

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engage our brains with AI tools 
properly. 

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Then we kind of, we are getting 
Dumber, just to summarize the 

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very long studies. 
And that's something that really

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changed something within me and 
the way how approach AI tools. 

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And that's actually true because
what happens is that we just 

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don't engage our brain. 
Our brain just doesn't work 

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properly. 
We outsource everything to AI 

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tools. 
Therefore we don't have the, we 

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don't create the needed 
connections for the brain parts 

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to, to connect together. 
And I feel like that's very 

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dangerous long term because it 
just basically makes us not just

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Dumber as we say, but also it 
makes us kind of immune towards 

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knowledge and creating knowledge
and creating new neural 

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connections. 
And I feel like that's much more

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dangerous in general when it 
comes to creativity. 

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We know for example, right now 
from different studies that over

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50% of content that we see on 
LinkedIn is not human generated,

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is AI generated. 
So here's also a question, is it

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OK or not? 
You know, I'm a little bit 

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biased because I love creating 
and I love writing and I do it 

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very often and I try to engage 
with my creative manual and 

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community skills. 
But I know that most people 

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don't or many people I know also
in my environment don't do it. 

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So the question is, what do we 
do with that on the individual, 

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individual level, but also on 
the community and societal 

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level? 
When we think about creating a 

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generation that doesn't engage 
cognitively with topics is 

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creating again like a more 
creating generation that is not 

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going to be able able to 
question things in a way and 

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that can have a disastrous 
result in general for the. 

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Future. 
If you paint that picture of the

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future, I could also just ask, 
well, are we doomed? 

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But knowing you and also from 
our previous conversations, I 

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know that you're not the 
perception that we're doomed. 

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On the contrary, you also see it
as I quite the opportunity. 

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However, to me, it feels like 
that you propose that we're at a

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crossroads of like particularly 
creativity, but also ethics and 

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emerging tech. 
And according to you, your 

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experience, and also the way 
that you engage with thought 

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leaders, what do you think is 
the biggest cultural shift that 

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you see happening as AI becomes 
a tool or a competitor in 

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creative work? 
So first of all, you're totally 

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right. 
One side is a very dark side of 

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the future we can picture. 
The other side is a very light 

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or our right side. 
I feel like what we need to do, 

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we need to kind of give 
ourselves the grace of holding 2

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very opposite possibilities in 
our hands and say like, look, 

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this can happen. 
This can also happen. 

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What can we do about this? 
How can we find the balance and 

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the in betweens that will enable
us to make sure that individuals

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but also society at large 
retries through the 

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transformation that we're all 
going through anyway. 

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So actually it's both. 
And when I think about this, you

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know, outsourcing our creative 
skills to social media, to AI 

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tools, it's happening already. 
But what is also happening is 

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that creative people like 
marketeers, you know, people in 

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the field, right, they're losing
their jobs because of AI tools. 

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So that's a huge change. 
And when I think about this, at 

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the very beginning, everyone was
talking about, oh, yeah, we are 

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going to automate everything. 
Therefore people are going to 

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have more time. 
Therefore, we are going to have 

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more time to get more creative 
and to engage with our 

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creativity. 
That's for now, but that's not 

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the case yet. 
For now, we see people losing 

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their jobs and being basically 
laid off in thousands and 

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thousands, especially in the US 
When we see what is happening, 

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they're also on the 
technological front. 

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So you cannot tell me that we 
are in the position of just 

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amplifying our creativity and be
happy. 

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We need to find kind of a way to
create a system that will enable

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us to thrive financially, 
mentally and creative 

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creatively, and we are not there
yet at all. 

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You're not even thinking about 
those. 

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Topics And now you know me, and 
you also know that my perception

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is quite like, I don't 
necessarily think that everyone,

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like every creative, is gonna be
losing its job. 

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On the contrary, I do think that
creativity hasn't been more 

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important than ever. 
I would want to pick your brain 

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because you just phrased it 
quite absolutely that you know 

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they are laid off. 
But I do think that there are 

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some reasons behind and that is 
not only through like due to AI.

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On the one hand side, I do think
it's like, sorry to say, but 

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shitty processes that have been 
implemented and then have been 

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held up for quite some time. 
And on the other side, I also 

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think that AI in itself is not 
necessarily or in essence 

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appreciated in the in, in a 
sense that it provides towards 

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the quality or the broadening up
the opportunities for thinking 

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creatively. 
And would love to hear your 

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thought on that statement 
because? 

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You just you just pointed out so
many different things and I 

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think that the secrets are here 
really in the nuances of what we

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are talking about. 
But you mentioned for, you know,

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laying of people, that's of 
course very complex and not it's

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also basically because of the 
system that have been created 

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over the generation that doesn't
necessarily or haven't 

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necessarily served us at all. 
You know, on the larger scale, 

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we can also put it this way, you
know, therefore, with AI tools 

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and the full, full automation of
the processes and system, we 

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will have the opportunity to 
free our our time and to get 

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more engaged with creativity. 
On the other hand, when we think

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about creativity and arts, for 
example, you cannot tell me that

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creativity is the most important
and the most appreciated tool 

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and skill in the world because 
it's not. 

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People who have been challenging
the status quo have been 

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creatives and outliers and 
rebels. 

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They haven't been historically 
very much appreciated. 

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And I always think about, you 
know, the examples of Van Gogh, 

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you know, I do not need your 
money when I'm dead. 

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I need your money when I'm an 
artist leaving and trying to 

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thrive and not when when I'm not
here any longer. 

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So I feel like we need to change
the narrative around creativity.

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Concept doesn't have a survival 
skill because that's what I know

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about creativity is our first 
and primal historically the most

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important survival skill. 
But we cannot just engage with a

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a tools and say right now, OK, 
and they it was grand Faidan. 

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They can and they will for sure.
And if we teach people and use 

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AI tools ourselves in the smart 
way, AI tools are just the best 

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business partner partners for me
ever. 

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Absolutely. 
But there are many people who 

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don't know yet how to use AI 
tools. 

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Therefore, it's, you know, that 
would we need to optimize or 

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teaching people how to use their
own creativity first and then 

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they can use AI tools in a very 
conscious and definitely better 

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way than they have been doing 
that so far. 

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An instant question that I had 
What do you know about 

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creativity that most of us don't
know? 

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I know that when we combine the 
cognitive creative skills and 

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the manual creative skills, and 
when we find the Enlightenment 

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within ourselves combining both 
of them, then the magic happens.

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I am 100% convinced of that. 
Unfortunately, most of us are 

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living here in our brains. 
Not many of us are using 

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creative manual skills and 
tools. 

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And I would urge everyone to do 
so. 

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I would urge everyone to buy a 
notebook and a pen and start 

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writing. 
And because I feel like that's 

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that's where the beautiful 
connectivity, the the beautiful 

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human creativity really 
contrives. 

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And then on a larger 
perspective, and also from your 

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experience, work and engagement 
in the creative community, you 

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distinguish between the 
individual, like the community 

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and the societal aspects of 
creative transformation. 

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And if you look into the tech 
aspects of it, what are pressure

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points that AI puts on these 
layers or what are empowerment 

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momentums that can be used in 
order to engage with it largely?

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So for me, first of all, you're 
to tell me, right, we actually 

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really should distinguish 
between individual committee and

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cycle levels when it comes to 
the influence of AI when it 

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comes to and I'm speaking from 
my experience right now. 

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So for me, the I tools are great
enablers and amplifiers of my 

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work, no question for many 
people in my community as well, 

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because they know how to use the
tools. 

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Many people don't know. 
So here's again the question 

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about the educating people and 
teaching them how to use those 

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properly. 
Nevertheless, on the more 

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community level and creative 
industry level done, there is 

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this movement of we can now all 
become creative people and 

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become artists and we can sell 
our art pieces, which is great. 

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You know, that's my story as 
well. 

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I started creating art pieces 
and I started selling them. 

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But imagine that everyone, we 
can become an artist 

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automatically and we are by 
basically automating the 

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creative aspects and processes 
to the AI tools again. 

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And I feel like that's where I 
see the problem because 

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creativity is again something 
more than just creating a 

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beautiful picture or enabling an
AI tool to create a beautiful 

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picture is the whole process. 
Me as an artist I like creator 

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needs to go through to really 
transform myself from inside out

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but also to bring the best foods
of my inner words to the world 

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in general. 
And if we now look into the way 

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that also ethics in the context 
of like, you know, how creatives

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use tools and so on plays a 
role, you are also like one of 

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the voices who foreign that if 
our institutions are non 

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inclusive, our AI systems will 
be non inclusive as well. 

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I would be curious to learn from
you what true inclusivity and AI

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looks like. 
And also in the context of 

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creativity, how can we make it 
more of an invitation for a 

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diversity in order for not 
replicating existing structural 

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challenges? 
That's an. 

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Amazing question and again, you 
just ask me about a broader 

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societal issue, but we can of 
course kind of point it out and 

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boil it down to to the AI tools 
themselves and the ethics. 

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What I feel is needed here is a 
different type of design of any 

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technology in general, not just 
AI tools and the design, maybe 

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the foundations of this design 
should be the radical 

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inclusivity. 
How that's how I call it. 

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Basically, we include every 
voice as much as we can, of 

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course, in the very utopian and 
magic word, of course, every, 

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every voice, every story is 
included. 

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But let's see, let's say we 
don't live in that world yet, 

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but we live in the world where 
we actually have access to 

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knowledge and information and 
possible different variety of 

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voices. 
We just don't use them or we 

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don't acknowledge them as 
something visible and needed. 

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And that's kind of where I see 
the challenge. 

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And one of the, I believe one of
the best examples of that is 

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what I experienced this year 
when I went to the AI for Good 

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summit in Geneva here in 
Switzerland. 

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It was a fantastic discussion 
about exactly this AI and the 

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inclusivity. 
And one gentleman I, I spoke to 

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told me, look, we are designing 
this amazing tool and we are 

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going to include the just the 
indigenous voices. 

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And you know, on one hand, I'm 
thinking that's great. 

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You know, we're going to have 
finally a tool where where the 

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system is based on the data and 
the information that we don't 

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have usually access to. 
On the other hand, why do we 

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again create another tool just 
to amplify one side of the 

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story? 
We could also create one 

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coherent tour when we have all 
of the stories and therefore we 

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have better foundation for 
better and more diverse output 

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in general. 
So I would advise and I would 

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definitely raise more awareness 
about the radical inclusivity 

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when it comes to creating any 
tool, not just AI tools in. 

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General, but isn't that hard for
organizations to do? 

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I mean, you know, radical 
inclusivity is something that is

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00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,560
the most complex thing that I 
could see teams, people, 

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00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,560
organizations to live by and to 
be very clear on what that 

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00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,520
actually means for them because 
it's so individual on the 

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00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,360
context. 
It's so individual on the stance

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that you take or how would like,
if I would say, OK, I want to, I

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00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,520
want to live radical 
inclusivity. 

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What what would I have to do and
strive by in order for it to 

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00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,600
become reality. 
Now what? 

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00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:01,920
You're. 
Mentioning is so important 

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00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,240
because you are mentioning how 
the current system has been 

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00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,360
designed. 
Radical inclusivity hasn't been 

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00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,360
part of that and though 
therefore we are actually facing

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00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,040
so many challenges in the world 
this day. 

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But we know also that when we 
include different voices and 

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00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,840
diverse voices and perspectives,
then the outputs is better, 

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00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,000
therefore the solutions are 
better, therefore the results 

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00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,760
are better, therefore the 
problem solving the whole 

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00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,320
process is completely different 
and the whole kind of output, 

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00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,600
long term output is completely 
different. 

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00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,000
What we are talking about here 
is rather again, the design of 

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00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,160
the systems and technologies 
where things like ethics and 

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00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,600
inclusivity are not the primary 
priority of any institution. 

300
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,800
They're rather nice to have 
maybe in the future output or 

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00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,280
maybe in the future when someone
complaints and the new law is in

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00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,000
place, then we might consider 
putting that or you know, 

303
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,240
creating like a say a department
with one person where we were 

304
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,840
just talk about inclusivity. 
But that's ABS that it just 

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00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,440
doesn't work really very well 
for anyone long term. 

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00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,359
And that's the main challenge 
that we face, that we kind of 

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00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,359
consider ethics as long term 
ethics and inclusivity in 

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00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,720
general as long term possible 
priorities instead of putting 

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00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,200
them on the agenda from the very
first stage. 

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00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,920
I know it's difficult, and I 
know that's not necessarily 

311
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,960
something that many 
organizations will do, but they 

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00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,839
also know that if you want, our 
aim is to improve the society 

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00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,920
and to ensure the longevity of 
the planet Earth. 

314
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,400
Well, we should have started 
that already, you know, decades 

315
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,360
ago. 
And where does responsibility 

316
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,360
lie in that regard? 
Because coming back to the 

317
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,960
individual, the team and then 
the organizational societal 

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00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,840
level that you speak about, what
is my role in that agency? 

319
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,840
What is the organization context
that I'm in? 

320
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,200
What is the societal 1 and who's
responsible and designing for 

321
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,320
inclusive? 
I feel like on one hand, 

322
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,760
everyone is responsible and I 
wish and I hope for the future 

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00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,760
that really all of our voices 
would be heard. 

324
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,480
So first of all, that we would 
believe that we have the right 

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00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,480
to voice our concerns, which is 
not the case in most of the 

326
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,680
institutions I have spoke to at 
all. 

327
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,080
But second of all, with this 
kind of self agency and self 

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00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,040
leadership that we developed 
because the let's say naively, 

329
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,520
but also optimistically, let's 
say the, the community, the 

330
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,360
departments, the company itself 
allows us to be ourselves and to

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00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,280
bring those things forward. 
Then of course, when we have the

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00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,720
self agency and self leadership,
of course our goal would be to 

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00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,560
design. 
We just see kind of the long 

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00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,840
term results of our work, not 
just the shortened thinking of 

335
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,360
the possible financial gains. 
And that should be, that's more 

336
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,760
like from the bottom, from the 
both bottom up, but also top 

337
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,040
down perspective. 
You know, it should come from 

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00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,320
every individual and we should 
design the the organizations in 

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00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,320
a way that they would allow us 
to make this happen. 

340
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,880
But again, it's a very utopian 
ways of thinking. 

341
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,800
It doesn't exist that much at 
all these days. 

342
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,520
But I mean, you can always, you 
know, put it out there and see 

343
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,920
of how you what, how to design 
the way to get there. 

344
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,520
But if we talk design and if we 
talk current technologies and if

345
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,520
we talk about how organizations 
are structured, we look a lot 

346
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,640
into the way of how they are 
influenced by AI, in particular 

347
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,480
tech infrastructure in 
specifics. 

348
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,080
And then even more specifically 
AI agents. 

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00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,880
And now AI agents are, you know,
the, I always call them, they 

350
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,000
are parts of optimization of 
particular process steps. 

351
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,600
And you've advised a lot of 
companies on how to build it up,

352
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,000
also how to design it also 
potentially how to design it for

353
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,040
inclusivity. 
And what is the biggest tension,

354
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,640
according to your experience of 
what you've observed between 

355
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,080
efficiency is ethics and and the
way that teams collaborate? 

356
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,080
It's a great question. 
So I think the main tension of 

357
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,640
that I have observed is that 
regardless of already existing 

358
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,840
policies and law related to a 
security for example, and you 

359
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,400
know the EUAA Act and so on and 
so forth, not many companies are

360
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,920
yet there to even consider that 
as kind of the baseline for 

361
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,840
their work. 
So that's a huge tension for me 

362
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,240
that not just that's kind of. 
You know, it's more like, oh, 

363
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,480
let's see what happens. 
It's not yet that important. 

364
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,360
Therefore we are continue our 
work and let's just ignore 

365
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:21,960
everything else. 
That's a huge tension 

366
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,360
nevertheless. 
And thankfully there are a few 

367
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,360
organizations also in the German
speaking countries, a few 

368
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,080
companies who as a foundation 
and design of their business 

369
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,120
consider ethics and security 
kind of the most important part 

370
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:38,000
of their businesses. 
And I think that the huge, for 

371
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,560
me personally, there's a huge 
hope that this type of 

372
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,080
institutions were really 
emotional in the future here 

373
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,240
because people will realize, 
hey, there is much more in place

374
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,680
here than our short term gains. 
Let us recreate something 

375
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,200
sustainable for the society. 
Sustainable is a broad word. 

376
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,360
It's also something that a lot 
of companies struggle with 

377
00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:02,200
because it requires continuous 
iterations in cooperation of 

378
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,280
oversight and so on. 
But if we now look into the way 

379
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,000
of how they incorporate AI 
powered creative tools and 

380
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,120
potentially also the way of how 
they automate the way that they 

381
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,800
work, what surprised you the 
most when you were working with 

382
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,680
your clients? 
Exactly the topics that I 

383
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,080
actually just mentioned. 
Also right now under tensions 

384
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,040
maybe lack of. 
I wouldn't say lack of knowledge

385
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,520
but rather ignorance and short 
term thinking. 

386
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,800
That surprised me a lot. 
I think fully not everyone I 

387
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,800
work with thinks this way and 
and acts this way, but the 

388
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,880
majority they do unfortunately 
because they don't see, I feel 

389
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,240
like what is needed here or they
don't see the bigger picture or 

390
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,160
they don't have the more 
holistic you know overview of 

391
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:51,560
what happens if you know, we 
don't think about creating a 

392
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,320
business for the next 100 years.
We are thinking about how can we

393
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,160
survive this quarter and that's 
a short. 

394
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,160
I feel like we need to implement
both the long term and short 

395
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,360
term thinking in designing any 
business, not just a 

396
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,000
technological business. 
And you mentioned also again 

397
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,880
sustainability. 
You know, from my perspective, 

398
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,800
none of the businesses I have 
ever met in the technology are 

399
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,840
sustainable businesses. 
It's a myth. 

400
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,360
It's you know, you know, 
greenwashing in a way 

401
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:20,560
technological greenwashing. 
It just doesn't exist because 

402
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,160
unless you know, you have some 
examples, but by default and how

403
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,120
the system right now works. 
So if you consider that we are 

404
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:30,080
powered by by oil, it doesn't 
sustain 1. 

405
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,760
So thank you very much. 
You know your whole debate about

406
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,040
sustainability of your business 
is just over. 

407
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,360
There was a lot of energy in the
in the past couple of minutes. 

408
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,480
Why is that so where does that 
come from? 

409
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,920
What is the energetic part for 
you that you're so passionate 

410
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,680
about that? 
I feel like, you know, in a way 

411
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,680
where they observe, and I have 
spent many years working also in

412
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,400
marketing and having my business
in marketing communication, you 

413
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,200
know, bridging the creativity 
technology in for many years. 

414
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,680
And I observed also with the 
businesses that claim to be 

415
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,240
green and sustainable and 
whatever you name it, you know, 

416
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,840
beautiful hashtags for social 
media, They're not. 

417
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,960
And the problem that we have 
actually right now in the 

418
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,320
society at large is that we are 
kidding ourselves. 

419
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,200
We believe that if something is 
marked as vegan or marked as 

420
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,080
whatever sustainable that it 
must be 100%. 

421
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,280
And very often it's just not. 
And we need to kind of look at 

422
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,160
all of those things with this 
length of how can we improve 

423
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,280
what we know that is already 
wrong instead of how can we hide

424
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,720
what we know is wrong. 
And we are more on the side of 

425
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,520
how can we hide those things So 
no one discovers that the video 

426
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,040
we are not that green or that we
are not that good. 

427
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,840
And I think that's a huge 
problem. 

428
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,640
But from my perspective, 
everything comes back to us as 

429
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,760
individuals and how we actually 
who we are as human beings, how 

430
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,600
we in the world, what level of 
responsibility do we want to 

431
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,080
take for things that we are 
doing and Co creating. 

432
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,480
That's everything. 
And unfortunately it's not 

433
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,840
always the case that people are 
vital angels and just want to 

434
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,600
they want to say the word. 
Very often there are kind of 

435
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,040
different things in play, but I 
don't judge that. 

436
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,040
For me, it's more like, let us 
just have this deep and 

437
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,960
important discussions about what
is happening before because 

438
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,440
actually with AI, we have this 
opportunity in this 

439
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,400
responsibility to ensure that it
will serve the next generations 

440
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,840
or it will again destroy things 
that we are having in the world.

441
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,840
So it's how to avoid things that
are going to happen because 

442
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,400
they're going to happen anyway. 
But how can we re individually 

443
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,200
and then with the decisions that
we are making, ensure that long 

444
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,480
term our impact is is is just 
positive for everyone involved? 

445
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,080
Why does that feel so 
existential with AI in 

446
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,680
particular? 
I mean, we've been at crossroads

447
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,200
for, for me at least, like every
now and then, or if you want to 

448
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,600
say like every 7 to 15 years, 
why now? 

449
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:56,560
Why is it now so crucial and 
clear and so uncertain for you? 

450
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,840
Especially this topic, 
especially the ethics of 

451
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,560
technology is because I observe 
that again, we are kidding 

452
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,040
ourselves and we need to just 
face the reality of what is 

453
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,360
happening. 
But also, there are already 

454
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,440
specialist experts in this 
field. 

455
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,360
For example, Roman Yampolsky, 
who is a ethicist who speaks 

456
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:18,360
about 97% of the global 
population is going to lose, you

457
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,000
know, their job in the next 
years. 

458
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,200
So what do you do with 97 or 99?
I don't remember the right 

459
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,280
number, but what do you do with 
the whole global society without

460
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,480
the jobs knowing that people are
not prepared. 

461
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,680
Many people just strive within 
the corporations. 

462
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,280
People are just not prepared for
this transformation in general. 

463
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,040
Living in the year of 2025, also
realizing that we have a lot of 

464
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,240
heritage, looking forward into 
the future for some time and 

465
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,560
assuming that 99% of people 
won't be having a job is, I 

466
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,160
think, in my opinion, the 
statement. 

467
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,320
And also seeing of how the 
current economy works and of how

468
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:02,720
people are not knowledgeable of 
the way that they AI use is 

469
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,800
something that I think is to be 
discussed and also to be seen. 

470
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,920
And I think there are some 
routes that you can also 

471
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,800
calculate and also how you can 
look into. 

472
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,640
But I would love to hear your 
thoughts on why you particularly

473
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,000
are so convinced that this is 
kind of happening. 

474
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,320
I'm not saying that it's a bad 
thing, just to make it clear. 

475
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,600
I feel like what I like about 
this big statements and I think 

476
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,920
that Roman Yampolsky really has 
his expertise to share this this

477
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,960
knowledge with us, right? 
So I trust his Dartmouth. 

478
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,360
But what I like about this is 
that it really make it makes us 

479
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:43,200
think, you know, it makes us 
think about the future in a way 

480
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,160
that there's that's absolutely 
crazy exponential growth. 

481
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,920
There will be things that will 
have to change within the 

482
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,400
society to adapt as soon as we 
can. 

483
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,560
For me personally, Oh my 
goodness, I'm so excited. 

484
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,840
Please automate absolutely 
everything. 

485
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,560
I want to go to the mountains 
and hike and write books and 

486
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,920
that's everything. 
You know, I have no doubt that 

487
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,080
they will find dozens of ways to
engage my time, but to engage 

488
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,160
myself with different things, no
question at all. 

489
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,400
I'm just afraid that or you 
know, I'm just thinking that 

490
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,640
many people don't have this 
luxury that they would feel like

491
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,800
OK right now. 
You know, people just very often

492
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,160
don't know what they want to do.
Therefore, the structures that 

493
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,080
we are within these days, 
especially at different 

494
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,400
organizations and corporations, 
they make their lives better and

495
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,480
easier and safer in a way. 
That's not my path, but I do 

496
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,200
know many people will feel 
really extremely happy with the 

497
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,120
current situation, you know, on 
the job market, for example. 

498
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,560
And I guess that is the best 
moment to say to be continued 

499
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,440
and to like look into the way of
how it actually plays out. 

500
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,040
And since we now get into, you 
know, the end of our 

501
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,680
conversation, then also look 
into some so-called in between 

502
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,920
moments with you. 
These are moments that I have 

503
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,440
with my guests on short, 
intuitive reflections. 

504
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,040
And like really what I would 
love for you to do is just come 

505
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,120
up with one word, 1 sentence 
that comes to your mind when I 

506
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:08,800
ask you starting with creativity
and 2030 feels for you. 

507
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,440
Like what? 
Freedom and what? 

508
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,680
Should I? 
I never do. 

509
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,920
Replace human love. 
What are ways to to redesign 

510
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,440
systems that we need to do or 
act upon first? 

511
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,200
We need to come back to our 
humanity. 

512
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,560
And what does? 
What causes you the most? 

513
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,600
Worries, ignorance and 
stupidity. 

514
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,840
And what gives you hope? 
Deep conversations and smart 

515
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,560
people I am surrounded by. 
I think that's a perfect ending 

516
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,560
to a quite insightful and, well,
vast conversation. 

517
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,560
We covered a lot of topics, and 
it's great to have some sort of,

518
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,280
you know, cliffhanger for an 
upcoming conversation in, let's 

519
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,920
say, one to five years and see 
where we've been headed. 

520
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,720
The latest Amber for now. 
Thank you so much for sharing 

521
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,520
all your insights and yeah, 
discussing the intersection of 

522
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,520
tech and trust. 
With us. 

523
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,000
Thank you. 
Great to be here.