1 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,560 Hey, this is Eva, and you're listening to this week's episode 2 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,880 of the In Between Tech and Trust podcast. 3 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,800 The podcast when we dive into conversations with experts at 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,800 the intersection of technology and trust and look into their 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,640 mutual influence on each other and how we can build and foster 6 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,720 trust in a world when technology evolves faster than we sometimes 7 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,680 can. Follow up this episode we dive 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,560 deep into the intersection of how technology shapes 9 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,720 organization and how it also influences collaboration. 10 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,640 And for this relevant exchange, I have Doctor Zeman Baglam as a 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,880 guest with me in in conversation. 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:58,000 And Zeman brings many years of experience and background at the 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,040 intersection of strategy, organizational development, of 14 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,560 enabling teams at exactly the progress and sometimes even 15 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,760 friction points of how organizations need to evolve 16 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,640 need to be a cater to. Because, amongst others, Zeman 17 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,520 has founded the Accompany the Dive, which accompanies 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,840 organizations at their step into a new era when they look into 19 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,520 economical. Success at the. 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,520 Intersection of humanity and also moving exactly that 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,160 forward. And in our exchange, we dive 22 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,560 deep into what it means to incorporate technology into 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:40,040 collaboration, how stable or flexible organizations can or 24 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,640 should be, what organizational design is required and need to 25 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,960 be fostered, the six different lenses of intelligence. 26 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:54,040 And Zemon explains quite tangibly of how AI only caters 27 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,360 to one part of the intelligence that we as humans have 6 of, and 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,600 what the implications of it are. And we also exchange on how 29 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,520 trust is an anchor and sometimes also a design measure of 30 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,240 bringing and moving people together and organizations 31 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,680 forward. Hi, Zeman, and welcome to the In 32 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,000 Between Tech and Trust podcast. Hi everyone, thanks for having 33 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,280 me. It's such a like pleasure to 34 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,720 talk to you about the intersection of organizational 35 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,320 development, transformation and technology today. 36 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,520 And before we dive into our exchange on exactly that 37 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,600 intersection, I wanted to know that when I now throw tech and 38 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,320 trust into our conversation, what does it mean to you in the 39 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,760 context of organizational transformation in particular? 40 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,880 Yeah, well, I'm an organization developer with a pretty systemic 41 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,680 background, so I might refer to systems theory here and there 42 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,000 just as a reference. And I think system theory can be 43 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,840 quite useful to look at in two in two different dimensions. 44 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,720 A it can help to really define what trust actually means. 45 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,560 So what is our definition of trust? 46 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:11,960 And B it also shows us what trust in social systems actually 47 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,880 might be needed for. And if you if you read famous 48 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,880 Nicholas Lumen, so the the godfather of systems theory, he 49 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,280 basically says that that trust reduces social complexity. 50 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,920 Is that so? Yeah, there's, there's a book 51 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:32,080 which is actually called Trust As the Reduction of Social 52 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,160 Complexity or something like that. 53 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,960 So to, to put it in a simplified way, trust is, is from this 54 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,320 perspective, trust is necessary in order to be able to live your 55 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,280 life actually. So we have to to trust everyday 56 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,880 trust in other people, trust in, in social systems like 57 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,520 organisations or institutions, because our everyday experience 58 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,160 in our everyday life is so, so full of contingency and 59 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,640 unpredictability. And if you apply this to, to 60 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,760 organizational transformation, you could say trust in 61 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,720 transformation is something like the felt permission to stay in 62 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,440 motion under, under uncertainty. So without pretending that we 63 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,400 already know the perfect answer. So in complex environments, you 64 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,840 just don't get certainty first and then you act. 65 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,440 But it's rather that you act and you learn and you integrate and 66 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,279 you iterate and so on. And that's why I love this, this 67 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,519 stance, which we use a lot in our organization development 68 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,000 processes, this stance of safe enough to try. 69 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,280 So we are not chasing for perfection also not in in 70 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:31,280 transformation processes, but we are choosing the next step that 71 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:36,040 is responsible and that doesn't ignore essential risks, 72 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,320 including risks for people, for the organization and for the 73 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,040 future. And you said something so 74 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,840 tangible and that is to use it to stay in motion and what we 75 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:50,000 experience all of us, I guess, every day, but also in 76 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,000 particular for the past couple of years that there's so much 77 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,360 motion. And the interesting part at the 78 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,920 intersection of organization is that organizations are built to 79 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,000 provide stability, right? So you could also say that in 80 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,280 some sort you and your team, you provide building bridges between 81 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:10,160 those structures and like the motion and possibilities that we 82 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,320 want to throw ourselves into and provide the flexibility to 83 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,120 encounter them. How do you see sorry? 84 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,600 That's sorry that that's one of the great paradoxes which 85 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,600 organisations always have to solve because we, I mean, we 86 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,120 sometimes have the illusion that we, that we live in somehow 87 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,280 stable environments. But of course, if you really 88 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:32,360 dive into the texture of life, you will find out that there is 89 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,040 no such thing like general stability. 90 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,920 There's only temporary stability against the background of a 91 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,560 general instability. So that's life. 92 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,720 If, if, if there wasn't instability wouldn't be life, it 93 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,560 would be death. And, and at the same time, of 94 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,400 course, that's where the paradox lies in. 95 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,200 At the same time, organisations of course have to create 96 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,200 clarity. They have to create alignment, 97 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,240 they have to create accountability. 98 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,760 And this is exactly what, what, what I would say substantial 99 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,920 organization development is about to to bridge this paradox 100 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,800 between staying in motion, between being adaptable, between 101 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,320 dealing competently with complexity, dealing competently 102 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,040 with the complexity of life, and at the same time, of course, 103 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,200 creating clarity, creating accountability, creating 104 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,320 structure, knowing that it's always only a temporary 105 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,800 structure and that it will be a subject to change in six months, 106 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,480 in eight months, in 12 months. And if you're now an 107 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,520 organization that has built a heritage over some time, and if 108 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,320 you're faced as we all are with the like task changing 109 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,360 developments of technology and don't, let's not go into the 110 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,840 politics kind of route, but stay with technology for a little 111 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:46,800 while. How can we also make sure that 112 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:52,480 we include the OR translate the heritage that we come with into 113 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,880 the futures that we still build? Is there an approach that you 114 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,160 can recommend to encounter it with? 115 00:06:58,320 --> 00:06:59,960 Yeah, it's a it's a big question. 116 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:01,520 It's especially in the times we live in. 117 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,160 So I I often describe this space as a space between the the not 118 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,600 anymore and the not yet. And, and sometimes this is more 119 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,960 paradigmatic or more more fundamental and sometimes it's 120 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,600 just the next step to take. But this is the, the I would say 121 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,920 this is always the space where the the old logic still runs. 122 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,320 The old recipes are still applied, feeling and sensing 123 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,160 that they just don't make much sense anymore and that they're 124 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,960 not helpful anymore maybe. And at the same time, the new 125 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,520 logic is still forming. The the new logic is not not 126 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,720 there yet. And, and she could have the 127 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,160 hypothesis that we, we live through these kind of times 128 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,120 quite a lot these days where old recipes are crumbling and old 129 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,120 systems are crumbling and falling apart and the new 130 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,760 systems are just not built yet. And in this space, coming back 131 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:53,040 to trust, trust, of course, is, is kind of a rich material, I 132 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,240 would say on various levels, actually, maybe, maybe, maybe on 133 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,320 at least 4 levels. So it's it's trust in the 134 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,760 process, which is directly connected to trust in emergence, 135 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,240 I would say, which is connected to trust in intuition, 136 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,840 individual, but also collectively. 137 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,400 And the fourth level is maybe rather about maintaining 138 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,760 confidence as a sign of self trust. 139 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,640 So in these in between situations, we are always asked 140 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,920 to change the rules while still playing the game, right. 141 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,080 And this is kind of a again, a paradox situation because there 142 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,160 there is no pause button, there is no master plan. 143 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,680 So we, we have to rebuild and we have to apply new rules to 144 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,600 invent new rules while still playing the old, the old game. 145 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,720 And, and that's of course very can be very exhausting. 146 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,280 So trust, I would say on the first level, trust, trust in the 147 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,720 process. Trust is the capacity of the 148 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,120 capacity to, to keep going anyway and, and to experiment 149 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,960 responsibly and to stay in dialogue and not to collapse 150 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,880 back into control just because uncertainty rises, rises, 151 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:53,920 because uncertainty will be, will always be there, right. 152 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,200 And then secondly, in those in between spaces, answers do not 153 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,800 pre exist. So they they emerge in the 154 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,320 process. That's pretty related to to the 155 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,760 first level level, I would say. So we have to dare to to stay 156 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,320 present long enough. And you could say that that in 157 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,000 these situations, you maybe you need an extra portion of trust 158 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,920 in the assumption and the hypothesis that answers will 159 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,080 show themselves while moving forward. 160 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,880 And and this also points to the to the level of trusting your 161 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,520 intuition. I think the the intuitive muscle 162 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,160 is is 1, which is highly needed in in these days. 163 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,200 And as I said, it's not only about individual intuition, but 164 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,840 but about something which you could call collective intuition. 165 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,320 Maybes the management thinker Peter Couzer. 166 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,920 He once was asked how how do people deal with deal with 167 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,960 complexity and he differentiate differentiated 4 four ways of 168 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,080 dealing with complexity. First, ignoring complexity, just 169 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,480 pretending it's not there. The second, trivializing 170 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,800 complexity. So just to break it down into 171 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,560 simple linear cause and effect chains again, the third way 172 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:58,640 would be trial and error, which is already slightly better just 173 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,800 to to iterate to learn. And the fourth way he, he said 174 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:08,760 in, in his point of view, that's the the most promising 1 is 175 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,560 actually using your intuition. And then he said, but not your 176 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:14,840 individual and intuition because this is prone to, to failure 177 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,960 again, but to create social spaces and social fields where 178 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,720 something like a collective intuition can emerge. 179 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,800 Highly interesting questions how to build spaces and how to build 180 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,520 social fields where collective intuition emerges. 181 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,040 And you've now developed a new method called the Stellar 182 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,560 approach, also for organizational development, 183 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:38,360 where you look into systems humanity, but also the 184 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:41,760 regeneration part. It's like this intuition part 185 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:47,040 across teams moving away from the individual to like an 186 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,160 organizational view. Is that part of that? 187 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,040 And like in general, could you walk us through of how you like 188 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,760 approach to come up with that method and how you apply it? 189 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,200 Yeah, of course. Yeah. 190 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,640 I mean, we founded our company, The Dive with the purpose that 191 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,360 with all our activities we want to to contribute to an economic 192 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,160 system or to an economy which which serves life like life as a 193 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,880 whole process. And of course there are various 194 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,760 dimensions connected to that. But but one dimension actually 195 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,360 is of course the question of how are how do we deliver our 196 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,960 services and how are our business models designed and to 197 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,280 which extent are we really able to deal competently with 198 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,240 interdependence? Because we are all 199 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,840 interdependent not only from human beings but also from from 200 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,680 non human beings. Is that where the intuition part 201 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,000 then comes into play again of where we how we encounter also 202 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,080 these in betweens or connectiveness? 203 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,440 Partly it's an it's, it's not an either or it's, it's, it's a 204 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,360 both end. I mean, I don't want to 205 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,880 devaluate cognitive intelligence or rational intelligence. 206 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,680 It's also needed, but it's not the only thing which is needed. 207 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:53,920 So I sometimes differentiate between and that's a model which 208 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,560 which I haven't invented, I just developed it further. 209 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,960 I sometimes differentiate between 6:00 plus one 210 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:03,720 intelligences or 6 plus one ways of knowing and four of them 211 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,360 apply to every human being, which is cognitive intelligence, 212 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,320 emotional intelligence, intuitive intelligence and 213 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,440 somatic intelligence like the embodied intelligence. 214 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,240 And then this is still pretty much human centered, to be 215 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,960 honest, these these are still pretty much like human 216 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,720 intelligences. And then there's also, of 217 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,440 course, something which you could call ecological 218 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,640 intelligence. So also the non human beings, 219 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:26,120 like the living non human beings, they also are 220 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,920 intelligent. They just speak another, a 221 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,120 different language. And then there's the sixth one, 222 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,520 which would be something like a relational intelligence, like 223 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,960 how do we relate to other human beings, but also how do we 224 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,200 relate to to other non human beings. 225 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,200 And the cognitive intelligence is one part of that. 226 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,680 And that's very, very important. But it's like I said, it's not 227 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:45,280 the only one. And of course we have developed 228 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,680 cultural patterns during past centuries and decades, decades 229 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:52,520 and centuries, which kind of emphasizes our rational muscle 230 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,920 and our cognitive and that it's pretty pretty much and over 231 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,320 emphasizes that, that part of yeah, of how we, how we proceed. 232 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,960 And of course then there is like the, that's where I said 6 + 1. 233 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,320 Then there's the artificial artificial intelligence. 234 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:06,840 And now we're coming to technology. 235 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,880 And that's interesting to map kind of the artificial 236 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,920 intelligence to the six intelligences, which I mentioned 237 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,480 before, because actually, if you really look closely to what 238 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,800 artificial intelligence does, it only plays a role in this field 239 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,800 of rational and cognitive intelligence. 240 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,000 And all the other intelligences are just emulated. 241 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,840 It it doesn't have a proper emotional intelligence or 242 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,000 intuitive intelligence. If you asked HGPT or or Claude, 243 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,760 are you able to to apply emotional or intuitive 244 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,520 intelligence, it it most probably would answer, I can 245 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,720 emulate this, but please be aware I'm a technology, I'm a 246 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,200 technological system. So it's not kind of a proper 247 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,920 feature which which I can deliver like, yeah. 248 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,560 So that that was kind of an excursion. 249 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,760 Your question was, are we applying these ideas also in the 250 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,200 stellar approach? And yes, we do. 251 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,480 It's, it's not the main thought of the stellar approach, but of 252 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,760 course, if we want to end up in a, in a more competent way of 253 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,800 dealing with interdependencies, it makes a lot of sense to to 254 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,440 not only use our, our cognitive brain. 255 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,360 And can you tell us a bit more about the seller approach in 256 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,000 particular and also what benefit it can bring to apply it overall 257 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,760 in like organizational development or transforming 258 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,640 transformational situation that an organization might be in? 259 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,480 Yeah, of course. I mean the, the, the approach 260 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,720 itself is, is just an organizational development 261 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,400 framework. So it's a development part which 262 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,840 helps organization to move from more conventional ways of, of 263 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,960 doing business to more regenerative ways of doing 264 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,560 business. So from, from just do less harm, 265 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,920 doing less harm towards net positive contribution. 266 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,720 And, and the way we do that is always iteratively step by step 267 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,280 by step by step by step through teams and, and also anchored 268 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,400 pretty much in, in daily practices and in daily 269 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,960 decisions. To give you just an overview, we 270 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:00,160 work with three different layers or, or dimensions, which we call 271 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,000 principles, practices and virtues. 272 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,560 So the, the four principle, the four principles, they are kind 273 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,400 of our guiding stars. They are kind of a northern star 274 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,880 where what's, what could be a regenerative direction as an 275 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,520 organization to go to. And then the, the seven 276 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,760 practices, they kind of translate those principles into 277 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,400 real behaviour and practices. How can we better understand 278 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,720 interdependence? How can we use our own circle of 279 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,640 influence? How does regenerative decision 280 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,200 making look like? How can we make progress 281 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,840 visible? And, and those questions. 282 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,320 And then the the virtues, they are more kind of inner 283 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,040 capacities which help that the people do not burn out in these 284 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,320 kind of long term transitions. And usually we work with teams 285 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,640 like team by team by team by team. 286 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:47,840 And we just help teams to become more aware of how they could 287 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:53,120 possibly contribute to a more regenerative outcome or impact 288 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,440 in the overall organizational picture. 289 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,080 And again, there's a paradox, of course, because that's why I 290 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,400 said rewriting the rules or changing the rules while playing 291 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,760 the game. Of course, we are all still 292 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,680 pretty much part of this neo capitalist or neoliberal finance 293 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,120 and asset capitalism. Maybe that's that's a way to 294 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,560 describe it. And of course we need, we 295 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,760 urgently need change on a systemic level, like the 296 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,120 economic system as such has to change. 297 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,040 But then you end up with a question of agency, like who is 298 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:26,480 God? Who is going to change it? 299 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,320 And of course, I mean at least like to, to, to simplify a 300 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,600 little bit, at least I would differentiate between three 301 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,360 players which, which should be taken into account, which is 302 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:39,120 politics and regulation, which is civil society and which is 303 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,160 the economy itself. And what we can, what we can 304 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,200 observe, you said in the at the very beginning, let's do not 305 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,240 slide away into politics. But now we aren't in into 306 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,920 politics a little bit. What we can observe these days 307 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,080 is that political decisions, like global political decisions 308 00:16:54,080 --> 00:17:00,480 are not really pointing towards the future, but they rather show 309 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,800 any like different kind of rollbacks pointing into the 310 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,000 past. So we can't expect politics to 311 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,280 save us and to to kind of really deal with those urgently needed 312 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,800 systemic shifts. But the main thing is if 313 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:20,119 politics doesn't act wisely, the problems are still there. 314 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,319 They do not disappear. We are still overheating and 315 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,119 burning the planet. We are still contributing to 316 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,520 hilarious social inequality and and all these kind of kind of 317 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,560 things. So if politics is is not the, 318 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,680 the area to look at, the agency pretty naturally goes to the 319 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,560 civil society and to the economy itself. 320 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,800 Why? Because if you don't act upon 321 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,280 these these challenges, there won't be a successful way to do 322 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,840 business in the in the future, because you just can't do 323 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,600 business on a, on a depleted planet with exhausted societies. 324 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,000 So. Yeah. 325 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,360 And don't get me wrong, I would want to dive right into politics 326 00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:02,520 and discuss of how we can also move things in that regard. 327 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,960 But that would be a different kind of episode and conversation 328 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,480 that we would be having. And it's probably going to 329 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,680 derail because there is so much to talk about. 330 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,720 And so coming back to the economical aspect, so currently 331 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,480 like technology is one of the main drivers for economic 332 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,560 growth. And you've now also highlighted 333 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,120 earlier when you differentiated between the six like layers and 334 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:30,960 then again artificial intelligence and mapped it 335 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,080 against it. What do you think does economy 336 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,560 do right and what does it do wrong currently when integrating 337 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:43,920 AI into organizations or also including it in a responsible 338 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,200 way? And how does it also move things 339 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,320 forward so that we can anticipate it to be state? 340 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,400 Yeah. I mean, I think we have to 341 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,000 acknowledge that we use AI and technology pretty much not free 342 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,480 of context. So the way we use every 343 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,360 technology always has to be seen in the context of, in this case, 344 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:10,720 the economic system we live in. And of course, also the way we 345 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:17,000 apply technology these days has the purpose of contributing to 346 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,160 the rules of today's. Yeah, I would say this is 347 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,720 definitely, definitely something to to keep in mind. 348 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,000 Because if I compare it for example, to climate change 349 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,680 discussions, which we had like decades ago or which we didn't 350 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,840 have, there are some comparable dynamics when it when it comes 351 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,720 to AI at this point. Because if we took our time 352 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,320 right now and if we really thoroughly thought about where 353 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:45,640 could technology in general and AI in particular help us to 354 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,840 really progress as a society and to to come up with a system 355 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,880 which really fosters something like thriving coexistence. 356 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,840 So that that's maybe that could be an interesting guiding 357 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,600 question. So how, how to build an economy 358 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,920 and economic system that fosters thriving coexistence, 359 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,640 coexistence of humans and coexistence of humans and and 360 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,000 non human being living beings. So if if it took this, if it 361 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,960 took our time right now to answer these questions? 362 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,800 Of course, then we might end up with very different ideas 363 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,000 compared to how technology is used today. 364 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,160 We don't do that because again, we are caught in market 365 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,760 dynamics. So there's a huge market 366 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,760 potential, there's a huge business potential. 367 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,200 So we have to move, we have to be fast. 368 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:29,440 The economic system and the way it is created today doesn't 369 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,480 allow for for reflection. And also, of course, another 370 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,360 question is where would those kind of spaces be where we can 371 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,600 have this kind of? Who has the agency to call them 372 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:39,800 together? Exactly. 373 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,440 So who does that? But yeah, I think compared to 374 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,640 climate change, again, we are just caught in this kind of 375 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,000 acceleration trap, which is pretty much fueled by how the 376 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,880 economy is run. Somebody would have to stop that 377 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,400 in order to take a little bit more time. 378 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,360 And this is what we just do not do. 379 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:59,560 So we'll all find out as a society and as as human beings, 380 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:00,800 as a human race, where we end up. 381 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,480 And if we like now keep that in mind and look back into the way 382 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,280 of how we structure organizations and potentially 383 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,400 also intersect with new paradigms that we find ourselves 384 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,280 in, in work or also at the intersection to technology, 385 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,160 there is often tension as well. And there's tension between like 386 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:24,280 the technological systems and the human agency or so any other 387 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,680 responsibility that we would want to use in order for us to 388 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,440 design collaboration. And I mean, in the end, 389 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,800 collaboration also means trust. How do you see the interplay and 390 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,440 how do you also approach it when you collaborate with your 391 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,320 clients also ecosystem partners in designing it for a 392 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,080 regenerative organization? Yeah, I think we, we really, and 393 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,400 and this is again a reference to systems theory. 394 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,760 We, we really have to differentiate here between 395 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,760 living systems and non living systems. 396 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,920 And I think this is really like from a theoretical point of 397 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,200 view, this is very, very important that talking about 398 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,560 trust and this this is the the main theme of your your podcast, 399 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,040 a series. Trust is a property of living 400 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,840 systems. Technology is first and foremost 401 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,640 a non living system which does not run on trust, which emulates 402 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,080 trust maybe but but which does not run on trust, but it runs on 403 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,440 probability, runs on probability and on things which can be 404 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,600 measured. And that's that can be a problem 405 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,120 if you contrast it to life, because life actually emerges in 406 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:31,200 the the spaces in between which are not measurable. 407 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,240 If we try to measure everything in life, like I said before, it 408 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,600 wouldn't be life, it would be rigid and it would be dead at 409 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,440 some point or dead at some point. 410 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,160 I think it's a little bit like if you know, for example, the 411 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,200 the the ideas and the books and the theories by by Nora Bates 412 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,480 and she differentiates between warm data and cold data. 413 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,600 And I like this expression when warm data is, is all, all the 414 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,080 data, which is like data quote, UN quote, which which is 415 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:03,000 produced by by living beings. Whereas cold data is, is our 416 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,520 pretty close to to what we usually refer to when we talk 417 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,280 about about data. And I think this is something 418 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,040 which you have to keep in mind also when it comes to designing 419 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,320 organizations. And also especially when it 420 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,000 comes to to the question of agency, because I think talking 421 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,920 about agency, this is maybe the main difference between the 422 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,880 older digital technology and the, the newer like AI related 423 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,160 technology. And technology has always been a 424 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,200 catalyst for change. So until here, nothing is new 425 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,160 with AIAI technology and technology drives change. 426 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:39,800 What is somewhat new is the fact that AI is able to decide so to 427 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,360 to take its own decisions if you let it, and that it's even more 428 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:48,200 and more able to execute its own decisions when, when it's when 429 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,000 it comes to, to agentic AI. And if you want to design for 430 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,520 collaboration. And then coming back to your 431 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,200 question, if you if you want to design for collaboration between 432 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,000 humans and technology, you should be very precise in 433 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,320 differentiating decision making. Humans only humans aided by AIAI 434 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,200 only question mark. And also the same of course 435 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,880 applies to execution like coming, coming back to agency, 436 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,320 like who runs the decisions, like who executes the decisions? 437 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,360 And the more you leave decisions or even execution to AI, the 438 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:21,880 more of course, you also would have to integrate technology 439 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,360 into the governance of an organization, for example, the 440 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,440 org chart. So AI as a colleague, for 441 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,360 example. So if, if you really say like 442 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:34,280 this is a domain where humans are not involved anymore, then 443 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,960 the, the consequence should be in, in order to be transparent 444 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,680 and to, to really take conscious decisions when it comes to orc 445 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,080 design, for example, to really display where are the domains 446 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,480 where we have the feeling that AI could or should take over. 447 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,720 But again, we should beware if, if we do so, we should very 448 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,320 beware, very much beware that the decisions and the execution 449 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,040 run, the technology will never be based on warm data, will 450 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,320 never be based on trust. But like I said before, just on 451 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,880 the emulation of trust, which is based on measured, measured 452 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,720 probability. And that's something very 453 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,160 different. And, and we, we tend to not 454 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,200 differentiate it because it feels so human and it feels, so 455 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,080 it's, it's so perfectly emulated that, that we, that we kind of 456 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,960 forget that these are two different operating modes. 457 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,920 What's the consequence of forgetting about that? 458 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,440 And do you think that there's ever going to be a choice for 459 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,280 either or or will they coexist going forward? 460 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,440 I think they, they certainly will will coexist. 461 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,600 I mean, I don't see any path. I mean the only option I see 462 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,200 that we kind of rewind is that we are just come to a point 463 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,280 where we where we don't have the energy anymore to to fuel those 464 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,360 systems. I mean, we all know that they 465 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,880 need a lot of energy and we all know about the energy dilemma we 466 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,320 have to face on this planet. And of course it could happen 467 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,920 and it's just kind of a very dark scenario, but it could 468 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,800 happen that that we have to face any kind of energy problems in 469 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,840 the future. And, and then of course, all 470 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,240 those technological systems would be under pressure. 471 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaking of energy and you also being quite deep in the 472 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,080 intersection of building up regenerative organizations, do 473 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,800 you have a point of view of how or what a regenerative 474 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,560 technology stack could look like and also potentially one that 475 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,480 emulates trust in a way that we can definitely also follow 476 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,800 rather than be uncertain about it? 477 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,840 Yeah. I mean following the the main 478 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,120 thought in regenerative economics, I would say 479 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:37,840 returnative technology would be technology which is in service 480 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,800 to life like the greater process of life and and this effects 481 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,960 again different layers. First layer would be like how is 482 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,840 the technology itself designed? Which which problems does it 483 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,040 solve and how inclusive how, how privileged sensitive is it and 484 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:55,800 so on. The second layer is rather 485 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,120 rather about the business model. So how is the business model 486 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:00,320 designed? What happens with the data, what 487 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,160 system, which kind of system is fed by the technology? 488 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,120 And thirdly, of course, coming back to the energy question, 489 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,400 what kind of context condition does the technology need in 490 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,840 order to be to to be run or to be to be deployed? 491 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,320 So what about the energy consumption? 492 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,520 What about the water supplies for cooling and so on? 493 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,200 So I would say regenerative technology would be rooted in 494 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,360 regenerative principles. It would be very aware of right 495 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,720 relationship. That's how John Fullerton always 496 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,720 puts it. Like what's a helpful relation 497 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,440 between humans, amongst humans and, and between humans and non 498 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,040 human human beings? And how can technology shape 499 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,040 this this relation? I guess regenerative technology 500 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,320 would rather be about reconnecting instead of hunting 501 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,280 for our attention and making us more lonely essentially. 502 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,200 And it also would apply and this is also one of the regenerative 503 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,640 principles, it would apply long term thinking. 504 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,120 So. So how can technology be a 505 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,400 bridge for future generations for example? 506 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,360 And if you rethink technology in this way, you might come up 507 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,240 interestingly enough with not that much the high tech 508 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,520 applications, but rather the low tech applications like low power 509 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,800 environmental sensors, minimalist and low spec software 510 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,000 like these, these kind of things which are maybe not the main 511 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,280 focus of where technology is heading these days. 512 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,680 And it's interesting that you look at it from an 513 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,800 infrastructure, but then again, also from the collaboration or 514 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,920 human interaction kind of way, because like AI is also rapidly 515 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,040 entering the way of how teams collaborate or also how it 516 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,520 becomes not only a tool, but a sparring partner. 517 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,080 And that people trust in the way of how they share their 518 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,840 thoughts, their ideas, also their interactions. 519 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,680 So do you, I think that AI will amplify or expose an 520 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:47,840 organizational existing trust culture and also how can we as 521 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,960 leaders be consciously aware of any of those interactions and 522 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,040 shape it in a way that it serves us going forward? 523 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,800 Yeah, I think, I mean it will be pretty much acts or is already 524 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,320 acting like a mirror. So if an organization runs on 525 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,400 low trust, AIA will most probably get deployed as 526 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,400 surveillance or or speed pressure or political weaponry 527 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,760 like prove your productivity. And on the other hand, if trust 528 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,840 is is high, it becomes more something like an augmentation, 529 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,040 like people maybe can use AI to learn faster, to prototype their 530 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,480 ideas to, to collaborate better. I think like the question, how 531 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,720 can, how, how can this be driven in in one or another direction? 532 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,760 Of course it it has yeah, it's, it's pretty much related to the 533 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,400 to question of transparency like and, and having a transparent 534 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,280 intention. So what do we use AI for and 535 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,360 what do we explicitly not use it for? 536 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,560 To be to be very clear and transparent about that again, to 537 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,120 use a safe enough to try approach like how can we start 538 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,000 with small pilots? How can we at the same time 539 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,600 apply clear safeguards? How can we keep decisions 540 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,080 revisable because they are not set in brick and mortar for for 541 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:07,880 years? And how can we also involve 542 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,840 multiple perspectives? I would say like this idea that 543 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,320 we all constructing reality and every person sees a different 544 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,920 slice of reality and of course this drives a different 545 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,760 technology if you really integrate these thoughts into 546 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,200 technology development. And you just ended with 547 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,680 technological development. And I mean, that's one of the 548 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,480 main questions of how it's also going to be evolving. 549 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,600 But if you now got the chance to look ahead and also from what 550 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,040 you reflect upon at the intersection of organization and 551 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,400 technology, what would be 1 structural shift that you 552 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,520 believe will be essential and critical for organization to 553 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,440 remain trustworthy? And initially, I thought I could 554 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,960 ask you about five years. I'm not sure how far like future 555 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,120 forward, we want to dive into the answer in that question. 556 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,000 So I would leave the time span up to you to choose. 557 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,840 But what would be this one shift that you proposed to take? 558 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,720 Yeah. I would say maybe 2 shifts come 559 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,120 come to mind. One is again about the the basic 560 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,840 idea of complexity and living systems. 561 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,240 And I think 1 is to to shift the governance from optimizing for 562 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,040 certainty to optimizing for uncertainty. 563 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,080 So I think every, every organization is well advised to 564 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,520 optimize itself for uncertain environments, meaning to 565 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,520 acknowledge that life is and always will be messy and finding 566 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,000 ways to, to navigate through this, this mess instead of the 567 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,320 illusion of of solving problems once and forever. 568 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,960 And and the second thought would rather be around shift yeah, 569 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,920 your governance and maybe also your culture from looking at 570 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,960 siloed components to interdependence by design. 571 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,400 So I think this is what we are what we as humanity are are 572 00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:01,600 forced to learn in one way or the other that we are dependent 573 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,000 from other entities other like I said before, other human beings, 574 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,720 but also non non human beings. So decisions must explicitly 575 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,840 include the effects on all relevant stakeholders just as a 576 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,440 prerequisite for our own existence and for our own 577 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,520 survival. So we can't separate the the 578 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,960 organization survival from the health of its environments. 579 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,560 And this is maybe something which more and more it's not 580 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,640 mainstream thoughts, I would say, but more and more it comes 581 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,160 to our attention. And if, if I look ahead for the 582 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,040 next like talking about time spans, maybe the next 5 or 10 to 583 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,680 10 years, I think either we will have managed to kind of navigate 584 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:47,480 more wisely or the pressure is very, very high, urgency has 585 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,800 risen quite a bit. But in any case, we will have to 586 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,240 deal with with this issue. We're about to enter the end of 587 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,840 our conversation and before we end, I want to dive into some in 588 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,840 between moments, and I want to start with the first one, which 589 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:06,640 is what trust feels like to you. I would say trust feels tender, 590 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,160 gentle, warm somehow. Yeah. 591 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,920 I think it's the feeling of, of being reassured that we can stay 592 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,760 in relationship and in relation even if we have conflicts to 593 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,080 solve and even if we have maybe different ingredients we, we, we 594 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,600 bring in, but still that there's relational basis which is not at 595 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,440 all questioned. And if you now take that feeling 596 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,960 and translate it into organization, what does trust in 597 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,040 organization feels like to you? To move forward with without 598 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,760 pretending to have all the answers. 599 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,720 And according to you, what is one of the most overlooked 600 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,880 assets in transformation? Rhythm and understanding of 601 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,520 rhythm, understanding that that living systems are rhythmical 602 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,600 beings, so sometimes they can go fast and sometimes they need to 603 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,200 slow down and to rest. And every transformation process 604 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,160 needs this understanding of rhythm. 605 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,400 You can't just push for speed if the system is is not ready. 606 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,280 And if you now look into the way that technology is included into 607 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,480 organization, what does technology for organizations 608 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:09,960 mean? Well, I think that means a lot 609 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,719 of things. It can be great help. 610 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,600 Technology can be great help, but technology also can be pain 611 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,199 in the ass, as we all know. It's it's, it's, it's often, I 612 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:21,400 would say it's, it's mostly an amplifier of all the gifts, but 613 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,600 also of all the shadows which are alive in an organization 614 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,600 anyway. And based on that, what does 615 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,719 tech need more of? Purpose Inquiry. 616 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,639 So what's the purpose of this technology of this particular 617 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:36,360 technology? Interdependence, literacy. 618 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,679 Again, transparency and honestly speaking, regulation because we 619 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,679 live in really in, in, in the wild, Wild West these days 620 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,639 concerning not, not even, you don't even have to look at AI, 621 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:49,760 but but for example, if you look at social media, I think in a 622 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,760 decade we will look back at what we do right now and we, we will 623 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,160 be very surprised by how, how we thought that something like this 624 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,960 could, could lead to kind of a prospering and successful 625 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,680 society. And if we now conclude with one 626 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,120 thought and that is at the intersection of tech and trust, 627 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,160 what is it at this the intersection for you? 628 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,720 I think it it comes with the idea of less black box and more 629 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,800 transparency. So to really understand what 630 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,280 tech, how tech is coming to its conclusions and how tech is 631 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,560 coming to its ideas and decisions and so on. 632 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,760 And, and the second thought would be around the question, 633 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,920 does it increase agency like a human agency or does it replace 634 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,920 it with control? So I'm ending with a question 635 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,400 here. I thought about if we now want 636 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,200 to jump into that question and unpack it, but I would leave it 637 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,560 open and for the listeners to take it with them. 638 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,320 And thank you so much Simon for sharing all these jump off 639 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,560 points into probably a lot of further food for thought and 640 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,240 continuous conversation. Thank you very much for the 641 00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:57,800 conversation.