1 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,360 Hello, this is Eva and you're listening to the In Between Tech 2 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,400 and Trust podcast. And this week's episode is quite 3 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,240 special because I talked to Chief Transformation Officer 4 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:29,120 Grisha Pavlotsky from Miro. And Miro is the collaboration 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,960 board that probably everyone of you has already used. 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,320 And the interesting part is that when Grisha and I met, we dove 7 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,040 into a rabbit hole and it's not what you think. 8 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,960 It's not transformation, collaboration teams and how you 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,760 pick the right skills for incorporating AI in 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,240 collaboration, even though that was part of our conversation as 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,720 well. We talked about how to raise 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,400 children in the age of synthesized knowledge and what 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,800 it means to provide them with background information, skills, 14 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,880 mindset, and also raising them in a way that they are prepared 15 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,960 for what's to come. So this week's episode covers 16 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:15,080 quite a lot of perspective use, but also dives deep into the way 17 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,880 that technology shapes trust not only in a professional but also 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,080 in the private areas of our lives. 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,680 Hi, Grisha, and welcome to the In Between Tech and Trust 20 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,560 podcast. Hi Eva, thank you so much. 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,320 This is my first podcast in my life in that girl. 22 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:38,360 I want to start our conversation about technology systems, but 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,880 also from a personal view of what trust means to you on like 24 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,440 a personal level, but then again, also at the intersection 25 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,280 of technology and transformation. 26 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,880 My background is I spent half of my life in various leadership 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,760 roles. So the, the concept of trust was 28 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,680 always important for me because I've built teams, I LED teams, I 29 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,520 was a member of the team myself, LED large organizations. 30 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,960 Building trust, building empowered teams, high performing 31 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,520 teams was a big, big part of my life. 32 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,919 So my current formula for trust, if you will, this is again, this 33 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,680 is not a final truth, but my current formula is consist of 34 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,120 two things. Trust consists of intent and 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,440 understanding the decision making framework, right? 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:22,000 So I'll, I'll unpack that intent means for me to say that I have 37 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,880 trust in you and I am working with you and I'm we can build 38 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,840 the parallel between human trust between humans and trust between 39 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,400 technology. But I do believe it's, it's 40 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,200 valuable to talk about human trust and how that translates 41 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,760 into technology world. For me to have a, a degree of 42 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,520 trust, I need to understand that we're standing on the same place 43 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,840 as far as our intent and what are we solving for? 44 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,680 Do we are we both aligned on what our final goal and what 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:45,840 good looks like? Right. 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,440 We can have a really good alignment about what the final 47 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,960 goal is, but very different definitions of what good looks 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:52,240 like. So that's the intent part. 49 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,040 Are we aligned on the intent? And the second part is around, 50 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,120 am I clear how your brain works? Like what, what's under the 51 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,520 hood? What's the mental model, your 52 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,160 decision making frameworks? How do you challenge yourself? 53 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,520 What's, what methods do you use to get to, to get to the 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,480 outcome? So understanding what's under 55 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,120 the hood is the second part. So that's like intent plus 56 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,200 decision making framework. Those two components will decide 57 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,240 whether I personally have a trust with someone. 58 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,120 And the interesting direction that you directly took is that 59 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,080 it's bidirectional and some sort. 60 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,160 But now you and myself, we're collaborating in teams and also 61 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,440 we've collaborated in global systems. 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:34,040 So your formula gets even more complex the more people are 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,120 integrated into those, right? Or how would you say it? 64 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,000 I think you're spot on actually, because we were talking about 65 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,880 binary between two humans, right? 66 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,680 And then when you build a team of 5-7 people, I don't know what 67 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,760 the arithmetical formula is, but there is a exponential number of 68 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,240 combinations of, of how you build the choice between teams. 69 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,000 And then even in the technology world now, because each one of 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,200 us have access to AI tools, we're proficient. 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,360 We go in, we come to team discussions feeling much more 72 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,240 prepared. And a lot of times we even go 73 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,960 outside of our domain area. So we have a point of view or 74 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,120 opinion on things that we're not experts in. 75 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,400 But because we've researched and with the deep thinking and 76 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,440 whatever we wipe coded, we we bring a much more informed and 77 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:17,800 broader point of view to the meeting. 78 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,720 So it's now the complexity is not just arithmetical. 79 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,520 It's not only like multiplied by five people, but it's also five 80 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,640 people that are to various degree equipped by high level of 81 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,040 confidence. And I say that carefully, like 82 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,240 high level of confidence, that they also bring a high degree of 83 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,960 expertise to the rooms. So that if you unpack that, then 84 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,000 my formula needs to be applied not only to the human to human 85 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,960 iteration, but also if you ever bring some artifact to a team 86 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,360 meeting, I need to know which models did you use? 87 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,720 What prompt did you use? What context did you use? 88 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,360 Do I trust you to work with your AI in the same in a consistently 89 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,560 same high quality way as I am so that we can connect the 90 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,120 artifacts and then continue the discussion at the human level? 91 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,840 100% you're a spot on. And I mean from the current 92 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:06,440 technological conversations, all of us are supposed to have and 93 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,320 maybe even already have coded their own AI agents and like we 94 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,080 build up AI genetic systems that we collaborate with and so on. 95 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:20,040 So that is also something that then requires joint design. 96 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:25,040 So I think the over empathy that we need to look into how we 97 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,120 design such AI and humans systems in order for us to trust 98 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,680 each other when we get into like those conversations gets even 99 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,760 more important. How would you say we can ensure 100 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,840 that that there is like the sort of transparency or at least a 101 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:43,080 common understanding that what we bring into the conversation 102 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,080 creates this underlying layer of trust? 103 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,560 So if we're talking about designing, let let me play this 104 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,960 back to you and let's see if I'm, I'm hitting your question 105 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,760 right. And they told me if, if I don't. 106 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,400 But when you say the designing the system, it goes back to, 107 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,840 again, shared understanding of what we as a team collectively 108 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:03,120 are solving for, but also the understanding of guardrails, 109 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,360 right? Because we all need to 110 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,240 understand what's below the line, what's under the line such 111 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,920 that when the agentic system starts working, it executes 112 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,360 within the boundaries of what we as a team deem acceptable. 113 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,280 Otherwise, I mean, the teamwork will still happen, but it will 114 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,080 just significantly slow us down down the road. 115 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,200 So I think when I, when I say as a team, when we need to align on 116 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,680 what we're solving for, we should also align on what's off 117 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,240 limits, what's the guardrails, because we're going to be 118 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,320 dealing with a non deterministic systems and, and the outcomes 119 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,080 are probabilistic. They will be within the sphere 120 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,040 of acceptable, but we will have some outliers and, and we as a 121 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,200 team, we need to understand upfront how we're going to deal 122 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,120 with those. Well, first of all, how to how 123 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,080 to identify those outliers that how do how do we know that this 124 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,280 particular probabilistic outcome falls outside of the spectrum of 125 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:51,720 what we agreed acceptable, how to identify it and how to deal 126 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,880 with it so. What are you currently solving 127 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,080 for on a professional but also on a personal level? 128 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,640 I'm so on the personal level, I'm raising for kids, trying to 129 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,520 figure out what to prepare them for in the future. 130 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,000 I have a older girl, she's a freshman in college. 131 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,040 We just took her to to university and then two 132 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,920 teenagers and one small ones also have 4 kids. 133 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,960 Questions come up what to study, what to prepare themselves. 134 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,720 So I'm I'm constantly evolving and like think evolving in my 135 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,440 thinking about what's going to be important in the future. 136 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,440 That's occupies big part of my life at the personal level. 137 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,800 Interestingly enough, same questions we're asking 138 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,320 internally as a company. As we're going through another 139 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,520 wave of transformation internally, a big question on 140 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,720 the table is what does the skill set of the future look like? 141 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,240 What kind of people should we hire? 142 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,720 What good looks like when it comes to performance? 143 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,280 Do the teams look the same as a composition of teams and 144 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,280 responsibilities? So apart from bringing a cool 145 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,320 technology to the market, we're also rethinking what the new 146 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,240 ways of working look like. And, and, and a strong talent. 147 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,280 We just hosted a large gathering of 50 CX OS at our office 148 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,960 yesterday and I facilitated 4 round tables and that was what 149 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,840 the new talent model looks like. For the futures consistent 150 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,560 theme, it's top three together with security adoption and the 151 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,080 talent model like those 3 themes come through consistently as top 152 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,520 of mind for CX OS. Let's linger with the aspect of 153 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,000 you being a parent of Ford also in quite like interesting times 154 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,480 of development from their personality level. 155 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,760 And I could see that you also like working at the intersection 156 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,720 of like transformation Tekken teams. 157 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,840 You have an opinion about it also like quite, you know, basis 158 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,720 on how you enter the conversation with your children. 159 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,280 Can you let us know a bit of how you approach it and also what 160 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:46,280 the current ways of interactions are that you choose to provide 161 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,720 them with? So I like mental models. 162 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,360 It's just, it's, it's easier. I'm a big fan of different 163 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,160 frameworks. It's just structures you're 164 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,240 thinking and at least tells you how you got to the, to the 165 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,920 opinion that you have. So when I think about like what 166 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,640 to prepare my kids for, I'm asking myself, I'm not, I'm by 167 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,400 far not the first parent on this planet and probably not the not, 168 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,400 not the last. So a lot of generations of 169 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,760 parents ask this question. So what is different about me 170 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,920 asking this question today? So that's the first thing, like 171 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,640 what makes it different today from what it was 10 years ago, 172 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,480 50 years ago, etcetera. And it's obvious that what makes 173 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,400 it different that our kids will have infinite access to 174 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,560 knowledge, but not only the knowledge, but also they will 175 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:28,200 have infinite access to synthesis and synthesis I'm 176 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:32,160 using with a, with a small word of S because the way the AI 177 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,200 models are coming up with, with the answer, a lot of times if 178 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,600 you're not careful about the question you ask, it comes out 179 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,600 with a definitive answer, the absolute claim for truth. 180 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,280 And an educated or unprepared user can take that as a not just 181 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,760 a data point, but actually as a synthesized conviction of 182 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,640 synthesized point of view, which makes it super dangerous because 183 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,440 then an unprepared user can say if somebody already synthesized 184 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,160 the data and information for me. So now what I'm getting is 185 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,720 basically a ready food. I can consume it, I can eat it. 186 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,000 I don't have to work for it, right? 187 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,160 Like, So what we've been taught to synthesize, convert facts 188 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,680 into point of view. If our kids are going to get be 189 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:12,120 getting, you know, this processed food, it's like the 190 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,600 synthesized point of view, will it encourage them to stop 191 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,040 thinking and generating these ideas themselves? 192 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,240 So one one thing that I'm preparing my kids for is I'm 193 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:23,920 saying, I know this going to happen like this. 194 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,960 I know that the puck is skating that way. 195 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,840 I want to teach my kids to recognize when what they've been 196 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,160 fed is actually not the fact that it was actually pre 197 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,320 synthesized point of view. And I'm teaching them to 198 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,720 challenge things and ask provocative questions. 199 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,880 And people call it critical thinking, but but the concept of 200 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,160 saying what I'm looking at, is it the fact or is it point of 201 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:46,440 view? And if it's a point of view, 202 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,880 whose point of view is it? And that's a big question when 203 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,240 it comes to AI models, we really don't know. 204 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,880 We have no visibility on data set that they were trained. 205 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,720 And I think that's going to change in the future. 206 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,760 I think in the future the model providers will have to will have 207 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,960 to come up with more transparency about what data set 208 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,800 was used to train the model and what group of experts post 209 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,520 trained the model, right. Because model itself is just a 210 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,280 math, then you have a data set and then you have a group of 211 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,920 experts that do reinforced learning, etcetera, etcetera. 212 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:17,600 In the future, I would want the tech providers to be transparent 213 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,840 about what data set went in and who are these experts, quote UN 214 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,600 quote that trained it such that then I can transparently choose 215 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,840 which model I want to work with or not. 216 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,280 But until then, users and my kids will have to learn to 217 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,920 unpack facts. I was quite impressed. 218 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,760 But so my kids go to International School here in 219 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,640 Amsterdam. A couple of years ago, my 220 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,400 daughter was taking a history class and and I said, can I see 221 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,160 a history book? I really want to see what 222 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,520 they're teaching you, right? Because the history, you know, 223 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,200 it's, it depends who wrote the book. 224 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,080 And she said, we don't have history book. 225 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,760 I'm like, what do you mean? Like, how do you study history 226 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,320 if you don't have a textbook? And she says the way they teach 227 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,960 history in this International School in Netherlands is they on 228 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:03,920 one day, they tell kids, look, there was 1812, the year 1812, 229 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,240 there's this person Napoleon Bonaparte, and he attacked this 230 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,080 country by name Russia. Go and find out everything you 231 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,120 can about it. And they just, and they just 232 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:13,640 asked them to go and do the research. 233 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,920 And then they spend a week kids doing their own research. 234 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,440 Nobody tells them how to do the research. 235 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,480 Week later, kids come back to the classroom and one by one 236 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,640 they stand up and they start telling the story that they've 237 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,280 researched. And very quickly, like 15 238 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,560 minutes into it, kids started like looking at each other like 239 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:30,760 why am I story different from your story and your story? 240 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,760 You know why our the outcomes of research came out quite 241 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,880 different And very quickly this class turns into not learning 242 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,680 the facts or not learning the definition of truth of what 243 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,880 happened, but learning how do we live in a society when we have 5 244 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,400 people and five people have a different versions of what 245 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,960 happened. So the teaching history becomes 246 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,760 less about fact and it's more about how do I live in this very 247 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,680 complex society and and navigate the complexity and different 248 00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:59,840 convictions. That was a big aha moment, big 249 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,800 unlock for me. It's like I need to teach my 250 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,320 kids in the world where access to knowledge and quote UN quote, 251 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,000 post synthesized point of view is easily accessible. 252 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,520 You will have to like society is already highly fragmented. 253 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:14,960 It's going to be even more fragmented. 254 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,560 I think in the future, it's going to be critical human skill 255 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:21,200 to live in a society and, and and connect the dots and and try 256 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,240 to reconcile while why different people have different point of 257 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,720 views. So AI can take us up to a 258 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,440 certain point. It's it's a tool, but this this 259 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,960 human skill of navigating the complexity, connecting the dots 260 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,800 and helping people align on on the intent. 261 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,920 It's going to be highly, highly human. 262 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,880 So that's what I'm investing in. And if you turn this into games, 263 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,920 obviously it's, it's much less boring like than what I'm 264 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,640 telling you now. But when we play with kids, but 265 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,520 asking critical questions, double checking, even like even 266 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,920 prompting, you know, you prompt something that it gives you an 267 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,200 outcome and then next prompt is like, now give me quite the 268 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,000 opposite point of view in debate with yourself, like as an as a 269 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,200 user, it's a quite interesting mental exercise where you force 270 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:11,040 yourself to read to opposing point of views and then work 271 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,640 through the synthesis. And that way AI becomes the 272 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,320 assistant for your thinking rather than a driver. 273 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,400 And you've now shared with us of how you approach it from your 274 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,080 perspective. How do your children perceive 275 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,520 it? Like what do they reflect with 276 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,480 you upon? How do they circle back their 277 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:35,080 experiences using AI, not only probably in their learning and 278 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,600 like also personality development journey, but for 279 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,120 themselves particularly? I love it. 280 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,000 I mean, the fact that they well, first of all, no, hold on, they 281 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,680 love it. I'm sure they're going to be 282 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,920 listening to this podcast. So they come to Jesus moment 283 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,880 more often than not, the response is, oh, no, again, 284 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,600 we're going into this lessons learned, blah, blah, blah type 285 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,400 stuff from dad so that that that's there and I'm trying to 286 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,520 navigate how do I not become a boring dad that like tries to 287 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,640 get the piece of wisdom out of every conversation. 288 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,520 But the fact that they do have cell phones and I know there's 289 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,200 like the parents split on these opinions and whether you should 290 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:11,760 or should not give device to your kids. 291 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,680 All of my 4 kids other than 8 year old, so 8 year old doesn't, 292 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,400 but all other kids cut the devices at the age of 10 or so. 293 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,560 And the idea is like I want them to have, I want them to be able 294 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,320 to Fact Check and to confirm and go in and have their own develop 295 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,680 their own patterns of finding answers and not always rely on 296 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,800 what dad says or what mom says, etcetera. 297 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,680 And it's very interesting. So my 13 year old son, three 298 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,480 years ago, when he was 10, he said that I want to to code. 299 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,560 I'm like, yes, awesome, great. I'm going to hire you a great 300 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:44,600 teacher. You're going to be a great 301 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,040 coder. He's like, no, no, no, I don't 302 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,000 need a teacher. And I'm like, what do you mean? 303 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,560 He's like dad, there's YouTube, right? 304 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,200 Like so in like in two days, he learned to he learned to how to 305 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,720 write games in Python from YouTube, which was pretty cool. 306 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,520 And then he goes from like one game to another. 307 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,960 He starts iterating. And then I said, you're really 308 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,280 good at this, let me hire somebody who can make you even 309 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:05,760 better. He's like, look, and this is 310 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,240 this was another aha moment for me. 311 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,480 And I think, I don't know if it's my kids. 312 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,520 So it's a generational thing. But my son said, if you hire me 313 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,880 somebody, I will learn to think how that person thinks. 314 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,480 If I go to YouTube, I listen to 15 bloggers, I read 15 different 315 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,080 things. I pick and choose what I like 316 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,560 and I compose my own learning path. 317 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,280 So I get to the outcome in my own way, in my own mental modes 318 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,840 rather than learning how other people think. 319 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,240 So for me, I mean, that's giving kids, giving kids curiosity. 320 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,160 This, it's a fundamental thing that's they're, they're curious 321 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,520 and then given them access to, to the tools. 322 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,280 It's super cool. It's just it's a super cool to 323 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,080 see how they come up with their own ways of learning, Which then 324 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,640 brings us to a separate topic, whether our educational system 325 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,680 is equipped to support that, that level of open endedness. 326 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,600 That is actually the connect that I wanted to draw to our 327 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,400 jobs or like the professional environment. 328 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,680 Because for me, there's the statement, we don't hire juniors 329 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,960 anymore because like we also need some more senior ones that 330 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,079 can now delegate or orchestrate or whatever. 331 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,240 And I have the hypothesis and maybe it's, it's going to prove 332 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,240 me wrong, but I do think it's not the right approach because 333 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,560 what you just described with your children having curiosity, 334 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,280 being able to solve things differently is a real addition 335 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,560 to, to teams. And it's also adding to like 336 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,200 heterogeneous collaboration. So I'm actually also looking 337 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,440 into the way of how these additional skill sets can be 338 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,920 built up into collaboration. However, our juniors coming 339 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,200 directly from universities, they are are sometimes differently 340 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,920 approached and trained of how they're thinking. 341 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,240 Also their ways of performance has been elaborated. 342 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,400 So bridging that from the university, like ending 343 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,920 university and entering the kind of like new ways of working is 344 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,800 something that requires also some sort of different kind of 345 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,280 leadership. So that is quite now the broad 346 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,400 aspects to it. But I did want to look into it 347 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,880 with you from a university like systems perspective, what would 348 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,840 be required different then also enabling like juniors in order 349 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,440 to be more curious and challenge existing processes And then from 350 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,480 a leadership perspective of what is required from leaders to have 351 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,560 this oversight into teams to bring those capabilities 352 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,200 together? Yeah, that's, that's a billion 353 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,560 dollar question. So let's let's take it in 1-2 354 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,000 steps. So #1 if you go back to the 355 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,280 technology again, the role of technology of AI and I, I live 356 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,720 in the world where I, I want human to always be in the loop, 357 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,960 like I always, I want the human to be responsible for the 358 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,680 decisions. I, I see AI an agent as 359 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,880 assistants, as an accelerators of the how, but it's always the 360 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,200 human that decides what we do and why we do. 361 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,240 And at the end of the day, there's got to be a human who 362 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,520 takes responsibility or accountability for the decision, 363 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,520 right? If, if AI helps a medical 364 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,520 profession to write a, a, a diagnosis, that's fine, but 365 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,800 there's got to be a human who takes responsibility for the 366 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,920 final yes or no. If the agentic system reviews 367 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,520 the mortgage application, there's got to be still a human 368 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,400 who says yes, yes or no. So there's got to be a human 369 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,320 person that not only takes responsibility, but also designs 370 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,800 the system so the system achieves the desired outcome. 371 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,400 That's so that's number one. Now, if I if I need a human who 372 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,560 designs the system, we'll go back to my definition of trust. 373 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,880 The first one is intent is like, what am I solving for? 374 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,200 What good looks like? What is the biggest? 375 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,520 What is the final outcome I'm building the system for? 376 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,080 And that is the skill that universities need to teach. 377 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,240 Historically, universities that I've I've been to and to the 378 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,840 best of my knowledge, the domain expertise that as we prepare our 379 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,960 kids are too narrow like we've we're building or educational 380 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:04,520 system teaches kids to be subject matter experts in small 381 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,520 boxes. So they can fit a job in a team, 382 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,760 in a function in a large organization. 383 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,040 And that says the whole model was designed in 20th century, 384 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,880 right? In the future world, knowledge 385 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,040 workers will be orchestrators of of the system. 386 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,080 So the knowledge worker will need to say, I have all these 387 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,680 tools, models, agentic platforms and orchestration layers. 388 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,040 I can orchestrate the work, but I need to know what I'm building 389 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,240 for in that way. The level of expertise needs to 390 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,680 be much broader. So I expect the universities to 391 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,960 respond to this and say we're not like the faculties or 392 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,960 schools or or departments or how do they call them colleges and 393 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,320 universities. They will have to broaden up the 394 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,240 breadth of knowledge and skills that they're teaching. 395 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:51,480 So it doesn't make sense such that people will be able to in a 396 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,560 much smaller teams to design the holistic end to end systems, 397 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,480 rather than you would have to like put 15 different very 398 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,360 narrow, very deep subject matter experts to say, now you're 399 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,880 collectively designing a system which is super complex to do. 400 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,760 We just started this conversation from from the 401 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,800 beginning. So, so education system I 402 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,800 believe need to change very rapidly and expand the the T 403 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,000 shape like the vertical T of of the of students that they're 404 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,480 graduating and producing. It's trading on that. 405 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,040 I want to share a hypothesis with you and I would love your 406 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,560 perspective on it in terms of collaboration models of the 407 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,640 future or let's call them operating models. 408 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,080 But I do think that future teams are are smaller than the ones 409 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,720 that we have currently and they will be cross functional. 410 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,000 So in a lot of organizations we have full sets shaped or 411 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,520 allocated towards projects outcomes. 412 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:50,680 And I do think that we need some sort of speedboat teams that are 413 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,400 able to drive into the direction of the larger perspectives and 414 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,640 also like the overarching value chain of an operating model such 415 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,960 as as an organization, how do using that? 416 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,000 Legacy companies, large companies in my point of view, 417 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,160 will struggle with us a lot and we will see companies. 418 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,000 Let me make a statement and then I'll rationalize. 419 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,200 I'll explain why I believe so. Legacy companies will be super 420 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,560 slow to respond to that trend, and there will be younger, more 421 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:21,120 nimble companies that don't have legacy org structures, legacy 422 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,200 egos, legacy processes, and ways of working that they have to 423 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,360 comply with. Sorry, but in general you would 424 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:28,760 agree with the 100? Percent agree that's the 425 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,480 decision. But you, you said something 426 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,920 interesting in your, in your statement, you said cross 427 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,480 functional. I, I believe that the definition 428 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,680 of functions will change in the future. 429 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,160 I would even like, I wouldn't call it cross functional. 430 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,400 I would call it outcome based, right, because the way the 431 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,920 functions are built like so I build the product, marketing, 432 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,360 distributed sell, sell sales, sales at finance collects the 433 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,640 cash. This is how we designed the 434 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,280 assembly process in 20th century and that's how we designed 435 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,280 function. And now marketing is like 15 436 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,400 different marketing and sales, different stages of sales in the 437 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,360 future. You're not going to say how do I 438 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,200 put cross functional team? What you're going to say, how do 439 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,200 I get to this outcome with the least amount of people involved 440 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,120 in the least amount of handovers And I don't even care what 441 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,880 function they sit in. I just need to work backwards 442 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,120 from the outcome. But today the outcome is defined 443 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,600 by my job description. My job description is this. 444 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,440 This is my outcome. This is what I do. 445 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,760 I'm the best designer. I do the best pixel perfect 446 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,440 designs. Then I hand it over to somebody 447 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,280 else. I am the best UX researcher. 448 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,680 I produce the best UX research, etcetera, etcetera. 449 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,800 That's how we define outcomes. In the future, what you're 450 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,720 saying, the speedboats will, will crush the walls between 451 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,000 this job descriptions and I'll say, who cares about this 452 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,560 intermediate outcomes. What we care about is the 453 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,960 product is in the market, the users love it and we're 454 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,240 collecting cash. So let's work from that outcome 455 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,160 and work backwards into what it will take to to achieve this in 456 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,960 the future. So 100% agree that this is where 457 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,920 the puck is skating. And large organizations should 458 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,120 be asking the question. If they're not already asking 459 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:02,600 the question, they're already too late. 460 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,840 And then the punchline is why this going to be so difficult is 461 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,680 because people have egos. People have, if I am an expert, 462 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,680 I went to school, I paid $300,000 for my college. 463 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,720 I have a diploma in this space. I worked there for 15 years. 464 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,680 I told my family that I'm the best at XYZ. 465 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,200 My kids know me as the best at XYZ. 466 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,800 I write blogs about this. I'm on the stage, I'm speaking, 467 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,760 I'm the best person in XYZ and now you're my boss and you're 468 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,720 telling me saying gusha, you know what, this XYZ not relevant 469 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,280 anymore. Actually you need to shift to 470 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,840 the right. This is a a huge alter ego 471 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,360 traces for individuals like a lot of people like 472 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:42,960 subconsciously respond to that very defensively say no, no, no, 473 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,880 there's like myself worth myself value is attached to being the 474 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,200 best artist in this XYZ thing, and now you're telling me that 475 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,200 XYZ is not the thing. Now you have to shift to the 476 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,160 right. So and now you multiply that by 477 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,120 you know, 10,000 people in the average fortune, whatever 500 478 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:00,280 company. It's super. 479 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,440 It's the change transformation is human and humans. 480 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,600 And I understand that by the way, like I'm not very, I'm not 481 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,760 judge mental about this at all. Like I, I think this will be a 482 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,440 big self identity crisis for a lot of knowledge workers, like 483 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,280 redefining what are they attaching their self value to? 484 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,920 And but the good ones will step out, the good ones will embrace 485 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,000 the good ones will see it as a huge growth opportunity and will 486 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,080 move fast. So I hope large organizations 487 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,160 recognize this and, and, and start thinking about first of 488 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,120 all, inflow of new talent. Like my advice would be one, one 489 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,840 thing is within your control, control the inflow of unit tone. 490 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,880 So the new, the hiring policies, they need to be rethought 491 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,680 considerably. And then internally there are a 492 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,400 bunch of techniques how you can, you know, create like sandbox 493 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,000 environment and like, you know, put people behind the Chinese, 494 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,480 Chinese walls, allow them to move fast, break things. 495 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,320 But we, I think we, it's going to, it's going to take a while. 496 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,960 It's going to take a while for, for organizations to change. 497 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,400 And by a while, I mean like years, it's 5-7 years. 498 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,520 We'll see. And coming back to the very 499 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,280 beginning of our conversation and your formula for trust now 500 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,800 knowing that we have, let's call them cross talent on teams and 501 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,840 that there is also some sort of ego identity attached to the way 502 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,840 of how they will be shaped in future, the trust aspect becomes 503 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,560 probably more more relevant, or at least that's what I'm 504 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,960 exploring also. But I'm hosting the podcast. 505 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,120 But at the same time, we face this tax celebration and 506 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,960 shifting identities in times of speed, velocity and so on, and 507 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,280 also needing to constantly upskill our capabilities. 508 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,280 Isn't that overwhelming? And if so, how would we handle 509 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,360 that as persons but also then as an organization? 510 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,520 100% it is overwhelming. There will be a little bit a lot 511 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,240 of anxiety on the market. That's why I'm saying it's going 512 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,440 to take years because you can't hit the button reset on a 10,000 513 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,720 people organization, 100,000 it will take. 514 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,280 I don't have a golden recipe how to do this and gradually. 515 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,000 But what is clear that organizations need to think 516 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,400 about it and they need to have a strategy how to deal with this. 517 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,160 There's probably not the right answer, but they need to 518 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,480 recognize the depth of the problem and the complexity of 519 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,600 the problem and have a very gradual, you know, step by step, 520 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,400 face by face strategy, how we get from point A to point B. 521 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,920 What may throw a curveball into all of this is a competitive 522 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,960 environment, right? Because if I am incumbent and I 523 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,280 have my strategy and it implies that I'm moving gradually from 524 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,360 point A to point B / 5 years. And then there is a fast moving 525 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,160 speedboat comes from the left to the small AI native startup. 526 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,480 That disruption can 'cause leaders to rethink how fast they 527 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,560 need, they need to change. But it's also, it's also top 528 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,440 down on border bop like from, from leaders. 529 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,560 We can talk about it. We can say we have a strategy, 530 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,280 we have a plan. But it also a lot of owners also 531 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,440 sits with employees like the knowledge workers. 532 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,400 They're saying, like it's me, like if I want to stay 533 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,200 competitive for next 25 years, I have to do this. 534 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,720 I can't just take a passenger seat and, and rely on leaders to 535 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,440 come up with a plan. And I, I think your, your life 536 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,920 is in your hands and this is, you know, wealth of your kids, 537 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,160 they're on it. So I think a lot of knowledge 538 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,240 workers will have to realize how serious you said upscaling, 539 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,280 probably rescaling. That notion will be so big 540 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,920 opportunity for educational system to step in plenty of 541 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,040 resources. Now I'm thinking about whether 542 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,480 it's resources or it's mindset. That's an interesting question. 543 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,360 Maybe it's for a next podcast. It's like if I'm 37, I'm not 37, 544 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:35,280 but let's say I'm 37 and I'm offered this program for 545 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,800 rescaling, but I don't have a mindset for it. 546 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,720 Is mindset something that can be acquired in the middle of your 547 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,880 life? If I don't have a mindset for 548 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,320 that, I'm have a different path. There are so much routes that we 549 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,120 could now take because I would also be curious to hear who's 550 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,280 responsible for, you know, providing the opportunity to 551 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,320 rethink mindset as AD individual or the organization. 552 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,240 But I do want to briefly pick up on the curveballs because you 553 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,080 said like you threw in the incumbent ones. 554 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,640 Do you see any other curveballs that could be thrown into like 555 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:15,200 the way of as individuals but then also to organizations with 556 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,760 or without heritage? I mean the most imminent one I 557 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,160 think that's coming is I don't know if it's a curveball or not, 558 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,560 but I think everybody's talking about AI bubble overhyped 559 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,680 expectations, what it can, what it can do, whereas technology's 560 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,680 over mystified what's not. I think the next next several 561 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,240 years as knowledge workers and their leaders will drive their 562 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,400 own and team level adoption with AI that the level of proficiency 563 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,240 and familiarity with technology will increase and 564 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,440 correspondingly the level of mystification will will 565 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,880 decrease. So I think, I think what we will 566 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,320 see is a lot more like consistent understanding of what 567 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,440 AI cannot, cannot do for your business. 568 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,480 Like direction of travel is clear, like with with the models 569 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,240 and they're going to get better and bigger. 570 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,880 We're going to get more multi modality. 571 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,800 We're going to get the physical world, the general population, 572 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,600 knowledge workers will learn general principles. 573 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,560 Because right now I still don't believe people understand how a 574 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,640 A works the basic level. I mean, people know how to use 575 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,640 JDBT, but they don't know what's under the hood and how it works. 576 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,360 And therefore people sort of like tend to overestimate the 577 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,160 capability that is like I think was Bill Gates, right? 578 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,600 So like in short term, we overestimate and long term, we 579 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,800 underestimate the implications of technology. 580 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,280 So I would encourage everybody to invest their time to really 581 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,600 get, you know, hands dirty, sign up to tools, build your own 582 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,840 agentic flows, automations, help yourself increase your own 583 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,920 productivity. Like if you're using Chen GBT 584 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,440 right now, that's table stakes. That's not AI familiarity. 585 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,200 You need to start when I hire people, by the way, in my team, 586 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,080 I don't ask them whether you're familiar with AII asked them to 587 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,280 show me the latest genetic flow that they've built. 588 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,720 Like literally just on the call screen share, show me what 589 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,600 you've built. And it doesn't have to be work 590 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,280 related. It can be personally related. 591 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,320 And if if a person can't show, then that's the end of interview 592 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,280 because that's, that shows the mindset like where people are 593 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,720 theoretically curious, but not like really. 594 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,520 What's the last thing that you built? 595 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,200 I'm building a smart agentic system that it helps me to 596 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,880 manage the key professional relationships that I have. 597 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,560 So I don't want to call it CRM because CRM sounds like a 598 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,880 database. This is the proactive agentic 599 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,160 system that understands my business objectives, what I'm 600 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,840 trying to do. It understands where I am in 601 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,760 different relationships and it's it helps me to actively, 602 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,840 proactively manage the content, manage the touch points, manage 603 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,720 the relationships, etcetera. That's that's quite fun. 604 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,920 Also something that can be iterative and without ending 605 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,640 right, So it's probably. Exactly, Yeah. 606 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,240 And the first, first version will be super simple. 607 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,240 It's like Air Table plus Zapier plus your Gmail. 608 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,440 I mean, that's all you need. And then and then you start 609 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,680 building like connections to your sales force and gun calls 610 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,480 and your, you know, your calendar and things like that. 611 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,760 You can always at some point in time, you're probably will end 612 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,320 up buying a professional platform that is the same thing. 613 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,040 But just the fact that you can build these things in a no cold 614 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,400 way as a as a non-technical person is pretty cool. 615 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,400 And once knowledge workers who are not technical, once they 616 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,680 start putting their hands on these technologies, once they 617 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,880 start building, what the interesting thing will will 618 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,480 happen, They'll start being their curiosity will lead them 619 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,920 to ask questions. Why am I doing the way I'm doing 620 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,080 this? Is there a better way? 621 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,600 And you will start rethinking the way your work happens. 622 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,720 So you're not just going to be automating the steps as is, but 623 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,280 you'll be collapsing steps, you'll be skipping steps, you'll 624 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,160 be rethinking and and you'll become the orchestrator of your 625 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,640 own work. That is a really, really cool 626 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,880 sort of a byproduct of actually building something with your own 627 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,640 hands. On an organizational level, 628 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:49,840 who's the master responsible orchestrator and to orchestrate 629 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,280 or have the other persons collaborate on also like a 630 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,160 technological or knowledge sharing perspective if that is 631 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,240 something that's also, you know, continuously evolving. 632 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,240 The orchestrators might be different, but I, but I am, I am 633 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,000 convinced the tone from the top comes from the CEO. 634 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,280 Like the CEO has to come in and say, this is not optional, this 635 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:14,840 is mandatory. We're going there. 636 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,840 It's not like we're going to, I mean, OK, two months, we're 637 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,840 going to play around, we're going to give you tools, you 638 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,000 guys experiment, increase your own productivity. 639 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,560 But the tone from the top should be very, very mandated, I 640 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,280 believe and say, look, this is my organization, I'm responsible 641 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,120 for all of you and for the business model, I'm responsible 642 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,760 the shareholders to the board, etcetera. 643 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,400 I'm declaring this is not this is not optional. 644 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,840 This is mentor. We're moving with that speed and 645 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,600 everybody needs to hear that message from the top that it's 646 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,080 there's a sense of urgency and there's a sense of direction and 647 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,840 we're moving there. Now how it's been orchestrated 648 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,040 at the at the functional level. So there's different ways it's 649 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,720 top down, bottom up. Like we at Bureau, we do it 650 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,080 combination, we do a bottom up, we give a bunch of tools, people 651 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,160 experiment at the individual level, at the team level. 652 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:06,120 But we we did identify a series of use cases that are overflows 653 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,040 that are critical to the business end to end and those 654 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,840 are owned by senior leaders in the organization. 655 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,800 Again, they might come from the function, but as a owner of the 656 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,239 workflow end to end, they own the whole end to end. 657 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,159 So that that model can can differ company by company. 658 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:27,440 But I do believe that without clearly declared a mandate that 659 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,679 we're moving and we're moving with that urgency and beyond 660 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:33,480 that point is going to be non acceptable if you cannot work in 661 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,760 that way, like you cannot work for my company if you don't 662 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:41,040 behave like this after that day. Since we now come to the end of 663 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,400 our current episode, I do want to share some moments with you, 664 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,239 the so-called in between moments. 665 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,360 I have them with all my guests, so I also want to have them 666 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,400 together with you. And I want to start with one 667 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,199 question. What does trust feel to you 668 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:56,800 like? But trust feels. 669 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,920 I'll quote Satya Nadella on this one. 670 00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:03,440 I really admire him as a leader. For him, trust is consistency 671 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,400 over time. And what does AI need more of? 672 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,960 AI needs more new ones and more contacts. 673 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,320 What is parenting in the age of AI to you? 674 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,880 Teaching kids to connect the dots and and synthesize opposing 675 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,560 point of views. And finally, what will the next 676 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,440 generation redefine? The next generation will 677 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,800 redefine how the work is done. Thank you for stepping into 678 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,280 those moments with me. And now thank you so much for 679 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,960 joining us, joining me on In Between Tech and Trust podcast 680 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,440 and also for sharing all your insights. 681 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,560 I loved it, but it was great. Thank you so much. 682 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:42,040 Appreciate it.