1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,680 Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast. 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,600 So I actually forgot to make a proper introduction. 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,440 As we started this. Conversation with Annabelle so I 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:14,840 thought I might as well record a quick intro and update you guys 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:20,840 on what's been going on with me behind the scenes so I actually 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:26,280 five days ago or was it 6 days ago No five days ago I fell on 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:32,800 ice it was very slippery and I fractured my left arm bone so 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,000 it. It has been a. 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:42,120 Challenging couple of days and just needing to reconfigure 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,240 everything and see, OK, how are we going to do this? 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:52,920 It's rather challenging with a baby to be 1 armed, but I am 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,400 determined to see the positive of the situation. 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,080 But it's just been a lot of figuring things out. 14 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,040 Fortunately, it doesn't stop me from creating these interviews, 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,720 these chats and having client client calls. 16 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,960 So that's a plus side. On the downside, everything that 17 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:17,320 I do at home is pretty challenging and some of the 18 00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:20,400 things that I'm doing day-to-day basis, like moment to moment 19 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:25,760 basis, I'm not able to do alone. So it'll be an interesting 8 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,720 weeks for me, which is the estimated time of like the first 21 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,720 period of healing with, you know, the bone and getting 22 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,880 stronger and everything. So that's that. 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,760 And yeah, life's an adventure. But I wanted to give a quick 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,680 intro to our guest of today's episode. 25 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,720 So Annabelle Jean Renault is a mental health counselor with a 26 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,920 private practice based in Geneva, Switzerland. 27 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,960 And she works with adults, teenagers and couples, 28 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,320 particularly on the topics of anxiety, grief, relationship is 29 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,000 issues, as well as with people with with people who are highly 30 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,560 sensitive. So these are some of the topics 31 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,920 that we are diving into today. So we're talking about 32 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:18,800 relationships and what are some of the key things that make or 33 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,400 break a relationship, a romantic relationship, right? 34 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:28,480 Some of the issues and and how how to just, you know, navigate 35 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,200 these challenges of life. We're going to talk about grief. 36 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,400 And so this is a very vulnerable, very like, I feel 37 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,840 like a down to earth, real chat about these things. 38 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,040 And I was so, so happy to have Annabelle with me. 39 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,320 She is amazing. I loved talking with her. 40 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,360 And I am so excited for you to hear this episode. 41 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,480 So without further ado, let's jump right in. 42 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,680 I'm super excited to have a friend over here from 43 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,960 Switzerland, Isn't that right? Switzerland indeed, yes. 44 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:13,000 So if you have a new Bonjour, come up with you. 45 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,720 French. I wanted to practice by the 46 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,920 little bit of French that I know because I know that that is your 47 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:24,640 first language, but you're bilingual, so. 48 00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:26,880 Quite a few languages in Switzerland, so oh. 49 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,320 Yeah, that's true. That is so, so true. 50 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,000 Actually the yeah, German is actually the main language, but 51 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,160 yeah, I'm from the French part. That's so that's correct. 52 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,480 Do you have to learn German at school? 53 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,680 I'm I'm curious. Yeah, we do. 54 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,200 Up until up until a certain point. 55 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,560 We do have to be honest. I kind of dropped out when I 56 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,560 could because German is really hard and I didn't feel like 57 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,720 continuing it, so I switched for Spanish. 58 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,240 But at first we are obligated, yeah. 59 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,400 But yeah, a lot of people in the French part don't necessarily 60 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,240 speak German. Right. 61 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,000 OK. Yeah, I get that. 62 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,320 Because we also in Finland, we have to learn Swedish, OK? 63 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,720 So it's like a mandatory thing. And most people, again, 64 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,240 immediately, when they can, they will drop it because they're 65 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,280 not, you know, into it. Yeah. 66 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,240 So people talk about like mandatory Swedish being a really 67 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:21,240 like obsolete thing, but but I love languages, so I didn't have 68 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,520 any issues with it. But fortunately, unfortunately, 69 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,680 even though years of learning, if you don't use it, you lose 70 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,960 it. So that's true, very true. 71 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,800 That happened. Yeah. 72 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,560 So I did the same same thing with French. 73 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,720 Actually, I should be using it a lot more too, you know, keep it 74 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,880 fresh, keep it going. But anyway, I'm so happy to have 75 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,000 you here. You know, I was thinking this 76 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,760 year I really want to connect people with people from Europe. 77 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,720 And I was thinking, OK, who do I know? 78 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,000 And you were the first. You were the first person that 79 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,200 came to mind. And I was like. 80 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:56,640 Yeah. And actually I had just written 81 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,360 a comment on one of your posts not too long ago about that, 82 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:00,760 about being European. So yeah. 83 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,800 Yes, yes. So perhaps that's why it was 84 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,560 fresh on my mind and I was like, Oh my goodness, yes, I do know 85 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,200 very interesting people in Europe who do cool things. 86 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,920 So you are a therapist. So please tell us a little bit 87 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,000 about you. Just like the the gist of it. 88 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,560 Yeah, the gist of it is I'm a mental health counselor and I 89 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,600 work with adults, teenagers and also couples. 90 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,720 I've been in private. I've been having my own private 91 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,600 practice now in Geneva since 2022. 92 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,960 And before that, I was actually, I did my education, my master's 93 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,760 degree in the US actually, I lived abroad for quite a couple 94 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,200 of years, which is also why I'm quite confident in English. 95 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,360 I first did my bachelor's degree in the UK, in London, and then I 96 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,320 went abroad again into the US for my masters. 97 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,680 So yeah. And then I moved back in 2020, 98 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,840 went to Geneva and I've been working over there in different 99 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,520 clinics in the in the US and then opens my private practice 100 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,080 here in Geneva. And I work a lot in English. 101 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,800 I work in French also, but I work a lot in English because, 102 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:09,720 yeah, I'm kind of part of like some international groups and 103 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,600 because I did my education abroad also. 104 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,400 Right, right. What's it like to start a 105 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,000 private practice in Geneva? It's a bit scary. 106 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,160 I mean, it's like it can feel a bit lonely at first because 107 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,680 you're kind of starting this brand new thing and had just 108 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,360 moved back from abroad. You know, weirdly enough, I'm 109 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,400 Swiss, but because I hadn't been living in the country for a 110 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,240 couple years, I wasn't exactly sure like how to go about it. 111 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,520 So yeah, it was a little scary, yeah. 112 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,080 But but I was able, I was able like to meet other colleagues 113 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,880 just through reaching out, like honestly, randomly at first just 114 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,520 sending emails like, hey, like, I'm, I mean, I just moved. 115 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,720 I'm starting my favorite practice. 116 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,480 Do you have any tips? And so slowly I started building 117 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,160 a bit more community, which really helped. 118 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,440 Yeah, now I'm actually part of like of this e-mail group. 119 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,440 And I last year we actually started also that group 120 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,560 Intervision. So I started feeling a bit more 121 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:07,520 part of a community. As well. 122 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,200 Well, that's beautiful. Yeah. 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,880 Oh my goodness. That is like, I didn't think of 124 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,440 going into this topic, but building a community. 125 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,360 It's it's like a it's a thing like, Oh my goodness, it's not 126 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,480 easy always. And I bet so many women are 127 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:23,760 feeling this. I feel this. 128 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,560 I'm like, I really want more of a community. 129 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,880 And I feel like when you do stuff online, especially in my 130 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:36,040 case, and not sharing all of these interests with your in 131 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,840 real life friends, right? It's it's a thing, right? 132 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,440 And. It's a huge thing. 133 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,920 I mean community, it's one of the my big things. 134 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,560 Also this year it's like trying to get to know more women, like 135 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,840 minded women in the area because yeah, it's it's so important, so 136 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,120 important. And it's not easy. 137 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,480 Yeah, especially I think as I mean, especially for Someone 138 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,360 Like You, yeah, who spends has a lot of your business online. 139 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,040 But I think for a lot of people it's hard. 140 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,560 Yeah, yeah. What would you if someone was 141 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,200 like you four years ago in the same position, what would you 142 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,040 say what, what are some of the biggest takeaways that you've 143 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,360 learned from these four years now? 144 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,720 From these four years, just in general, like. 145 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,680 In terms of like connecting with people, building a community or, 146 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,240 you know, not not allowing yourself to stay stuck in that 147 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,720 isolation. Yeah, I think unfortunately, I 148 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,000 mean, maybe not unfortunately, but you do have to put yourself 149 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,840 out there. You have to try and you have to 150 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,039 make an effort. Yeah. 151 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:41,400 It's like nowadays it's, it is possible to to, you know, find 152 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,200 people online. It's much easier than it's ever 153 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,240 been also because of online, you know, the Internet and online 154 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,320 groups and different things you can find. 155 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,080 And so you do have to make an effort. 156 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:56,640 And yeah, like recently I just joined Bumble BFF because I 157 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,160 decided like that's, that's one of the ways I could maybe try 158 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,040 and find girls in my area. Because also I moved, I'm not 159 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,280 living in Geneva anymore. I actually moved in with my 160 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,040 partner a year ago. So I'm, I now live like one hour 161 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,400 away from Geneva. So yeah. 162 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,120 So even that, you know, it's like a small, I kind of live in 163 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,320 a small village and it's not so easy to meet people. 164 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,200 So in real life. And yeah, I think trying to make 165 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,600 use of like, the tools that are available nowadays. 166 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,200 And it's actually also something that I think is important when 167 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:26,840 it comes to. I know grief is one of the 168 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,280 topics you want to talk about. Yeah. 169 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,480 And I think community is also something that can be very, very 170 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:35,920 important when we go through grief. 171 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,440 Sorry to introduce the topic out of nowhere, but. 172 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,640 I know that's good. That's good. 173 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,760 I'm completely fine with just diving into the deep end right 174 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,160 away. Yeah, no. 175 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,280 But yeah, in fact, especially also in grief, it's important to 176 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,320 try and find some people who understand and community. 177 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,960 And it's one of the things I also did, you know, trying to 178 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,360 join online, online grief groups and connect with people who 179 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,920 understand your experience. Because at the end of the day, 180 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,200 that's what it's about, what that's what community is about. 181 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,040 It's about finding people who understand you and understand 182 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,040 your experience. And I think that's what we 183 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,720 create, I mean, as human beings. Exactly, exactly. 184 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,280 And you talk a lot about relationships and how important 185 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,840 healthy relationships are for, for healing, but just in general 186 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,720 for our health. What are some of the biggest 187 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,280 things that you've learned as now as a therapist, but just, 188 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,080 you know, personally as a woman? Like what? 189 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:35,080 What are some of the key pillars that we need to establish 190 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,560 healthy relationships? That's a very good question. 191 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:41,080 The key pillar is to establish healthy relationships. 192 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,760 I think #1 to be honest would be vulnerability, like the ability 193 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,240 to show yourself as you are. It sounds cliche and simple, but 194 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,760 it's very hard. Very, very hard. 195 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,840 It's something I just observed in my work. 196 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,880 Also with couples, it's like often times we have these big 197 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,600 kind of, well, sometimes they're big, sometimes they're a bit 198 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,400 more subtle, but we have some sort of wall up and we're trying 199 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,280 to pretend in some way and, and protect ourselves. 200 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:09,640 Basically protects. Yeah. 201 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,640 It's like we have a lot of protective Shields on and 202 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:16,040 vulnerability feels super scary for a lot of people, for most of 203 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,560 us. And so I think that's in order 204 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:21,640 to build like healthy, sustainable long term 205 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,960 relationships, it's so important to be able to do that. 206 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,000 You know, for people for whom it's especially hard because 207 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,760 they've never had like, a safe person to do that with, I think 208 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,840 you have to go step by step. Like you can't expect yourself 209 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,200 to just, you know, yeah, be vulnerable right away with 210 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,200 anyone. But it just like builds the 211 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,280 capacity. That's another thing that I've 212 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,640 find is just very, very important in just so many 213 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,960 different areas in therapy and therapeutic modalities. 214 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,120 It's like building the capacity because. 215 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,080 Because things. Yeah, you can't go faster than 216 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,280 your actual capacity. Like you need to. 217 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:56,880 Yeah. Work in increments. 218 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,600 So. Exactly so. 219 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,440 We can't really like, OK, let's just crack you open. 220 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,600 Yeah, exactly. No, that's not how it works, 221 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,000 especially if you've had like a big wall out for many, many 222 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,760 years. No, you're then the defenses are 223 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,680 going to go even more up like yeah. 224 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:14,200 Absolutely. It's just like your system is 225 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,520 like in like going on this alarm mode totally suddenly. 226 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,160 And yeah, so there's definitely this titrating that needs to be 227 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,080 happening. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 228 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,400 And you know what, just to share like from my immediate life 229 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,760 experiences, this is exactly what I've been noticing. 230 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,680 And I've been together with my husband for around 10 years. 231 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,880 So we're still navigating these waters. 232 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,840 Of course. We're of course dealing with new 233 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,480 situations with a baby. Now I have a broken arm. 234 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:48,040 By the way, while we're serious, you may not know, broke a 235 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,480 fractured my arm bone 2 days ago. 236 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,320 So it's a challenge, let's just say that. 237 00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:00,320 But anyway, I, I noticed like how much due to all of the 238 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,200 stressors and the, you know, sleep deprivation, tiredness, 239 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,680 all these things that we're navigating what I was going 240 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:12,520 through and what I noticed in myself is this contracting. 241 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:19,800 I started to build a wall, which incidentally breaking of an arm 242 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:25,720 now of sort of like affected in a beautiful way because it like 243 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,800 we couldn't go on anymore like that. 244 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,760 Well, there's just this thing where I felt like I couldn't 245 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,440 talk about certain things because they were so they felt 246 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:41,440 so deep and hard for me to even vocalize as a new mom and 247 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,440 everything, you know, of things like wanting to build something 248 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,120 online whilst you're navigating, trying to be a new mom and all 249 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,600 of that. And so I, like I said, I'd 250 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:58,120 started to build this subtle wall, the shield, because it 251 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:02,360 just fell hard. And now, you know, there's 252 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,400 always like a silver lining to everything. 253 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,160 And I believe that there are no sort of like accidents per SE. 254 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,720 Like, yes, this was an accident, but my psyche also primed what 255 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,120 happened because I made the situation. 256 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,840 So, like, I don't know, it's just primed for that accident to 257 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,520 happen. And weirdly enough, it has 258 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,840 brought like, even, you know, two days. 259 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,600 It has brought us closer. And this is just right, like, 260 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,120 right now happening. So it's just so fascinating to 261 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,440 observe, OK, I had this wall that I was building up because 262 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,120 it was hard to communicate and hard to be vulnerable. 263 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,920 And it requires a decision sometimes. 264 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,120 You know, as women, we just, you know, at least for me, I need to 265 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,960 decide that I'm going at least I'm going to a little bit open 266 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,120 up in these moments. Yeah, absolutely. 267 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,920 It feels a little bit like a leap of faith sometimes. 268 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,880 I like that saying because it's like, yeah, it's like you're 269 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,960 leaping and and trusting basically that. 270 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,000 Yeah, leap of faith. I like it. 271 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,400 Yeah, very true, very true. What have you noticed? 272 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,920 Like, what are some of the biggest things that come up in 273 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,320 in therapy with couples and perhaps even in your own 274 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:28,080 experience that makes it hard to connect on like an authentic 275 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,400 level? Yeah, that's a good question. 276 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,480 I think there are many things that prevent people from 277 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,520 connecting. Definitely not being able to be 278 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,160 vulnerable with one another. That's a big one. 279 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:42,040 When people stay stuck in endless loops of arguments and 280 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,240 trying to be right, that's a big one also. 281 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,000 Oh yeah. The ego often. 282 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,720 Yeah. The ego often gets in the way 283 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,480 and like wanting to prove your point to be right. 284 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,360 Yeah. I mean, in the, in the way that 285 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,040 I work, I'm trained in the Gotzman methods and they talk, 286 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,200 one of the big things they talk about are the, because they did 287 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,800 a lot of research on couples like throughout throughout many 288 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,480 years and they found that there are four big behaviors that 289 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,320 predict the demise of a relationship basically. 290 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,640 And those four behaviors are criticism and then we have 291 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:20,240 defensiveness and then stonewalling and contempt. 292 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,720 And so those contempt being the worst, by the way, this is the 293 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,400 large like out of the four, contempt is like really the 294 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,960 worst when when couples come in and and one of them is in deep 295 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,680 contempt. I mean, I know it's going to be 296 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,120 like probably a long journey to recover from that. 297 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,280 But generally speaking, like there is often this back and 298 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,440 forth of someone criticizing the other and then the other one 299 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,760 responding in defensiveness and being stuck in that loop 300 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,040 basically, and having a hard time like zooming out and 301 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,760 getting out of it. And so often people people end 302 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,280 up getting stuck in like, well, a new situation where they're 303 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:03,240 against each other instead of having the mentality that we're 304 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,599 A-Team and that we're in this together. 305 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,640 And that despite like the negative cycle we're stuck in, 306 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,079 like we're going to work through it together, Yeah. 307 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,880 And so that's definitely huge. Wow. 308 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,760 OK, so those were again to go through the, yeah, criticism, 309 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,359 defensiveness, defensiveness, stonewalling, stonewalling and 310 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,359 content. And stonewalling is basically 311 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,120 like putting up a wall. And the silent treatments can be 312 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:33,000 considered stillwalling, just putting up a wall and maybe even 313 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,000 stop talking, which can be very, yeah, very nerve wracking for 314 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,760 the other person because. OK, I'm I can just raise my hand 315 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,040 that I have definitely been guilty of that. 316 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,240 Definitely me too, yes. So that. 317 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:50,480 For me, it's actually the, the, the more so than criticism, 318 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,040 probably. I tend to be the one who treats 319 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,560 like, yes, me too, yeah, me. Too That that has always been. 320 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,920 I mean, I know where it comes from. 321 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:03,160 It is a dynamic that I I observed and learned. 322 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,360 Yeah. But it's definitely something 323 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:09,320 that I've been working on consciously. 324 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,440 But yeah, it's it's an automatic response. 325 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,160 Yeah, it's an automatic response. 326 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,160 It's out of fear for me, definitely. 327 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,560 It's like wanting to protect myself and, and kind of really 328 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,040 literally maybe like hides, like hides and, and just like not be 329 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,080 there anymore and. How do you like? 330 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,880 Have you noticed ways in which you find it easiest to sort of 331 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,520 pull yourself out of that response? 332 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,520 Like what what helps you and what have you? 333 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:40,160 What have you noticed has helped clients come out of that 334 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:45,120 response of like retreat and going silent, not talking, 335 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:46,840 saying? Anything sometimes you have to 336 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,680 take some time off for yourself because maybe the interaction 337 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,880 was a bit too triggering in that moment and like the emotion when 338 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,360 because usually when we Stonewall we we have like a lot 339 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,520 of physiological arousal like we feel very it might not be 340 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,400 apparent based on your appearance, but internally 341 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,320 there's a lot that's happening. And so it can be helpful to just 342 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,880 retreat and get some resources for yourself, like like basic 343 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,160 tools to ground yourself and regulate your nervous system, 344 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,680 those kind of things. And maybe step out of the 345 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,240 interaction maybe for a little bit and then come back. 346 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,000 Because, yeah, by that point, usually there's just a lot 347 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,160 happening internally and you need maybe a bit of space, 348 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,520 especially because, yeah, I don't know about you, but people 349 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,920 who tend to Stonewall, I think, And I'm going to talk now about 350 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,120 another theory, but an attachment theory we talk about. 351 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,280 I don't know if you're a little familiar with it. 352 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,680 I am a little bit, yes. Yeah, I think the person who 353 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,800 tends to soon, well usually tends to have any more avoidance 354 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,760 attachment style meaning like, yeah, like the tendency to want 355 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,440 to just retreat and be by yourself and like have a hard 356 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,920 time with vulnerability. And I know I'm more on the 357 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,000 avoidance spectrum personally and so. 358 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,120 Me too, yeah. So get you? 359 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,120 Yeah. So yeah, you need to regain 360 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,240 trust step by step. It's really helpful. 361 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,960 It's definitely helpful to have a partner on the other side who 362 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:21,160 is able to be patient, like be patient and kind and 363 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,480 understanding obviously. And that use, yeah. 364 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,320 And that use any form of criticism and, and yeah, be 365 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,480 gentle basically, because there's a lot of fear happening 366 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,520 usually with avoidance. Yes, that is so true. 367 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,920 But I've also noticed that at some point, like I have to make 368 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,200 a conscious decision that I'm gonna, I'm gonna come out of 369 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,440 hiding because I get, yeah, potentially if I want to stay in 370 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,960 that ego like protection mode, I could stay there. 371 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,680 Like I could literally, I could decide. 372 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,960 I can see myself deciding potentially I see that route. 373 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,240 Like I could decide to stay there for an indefinite amount 374 00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:59,240 of time. Very true. 375 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,600 Which at that point becomes a way of sort of punishing the 376 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,920 other person. For sure, it can be a way of 377 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,920 punishing and controlling, sometimes a bit subtly. 378 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,200 And yeah, yeah, yeah. So at some point you do have to 379 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,560 make a choice. Yeah, yeah. 380 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,000 And that's where I think it can be helpful if you have some sort 381 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,760 of higher value in your relationship also like, OK, what 382 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,560 is, what is this relationship about? 383 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,160 Who? Who do I want to be in the long 384 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,520 term? Exactly. 385 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,360 Yeah, yes. Having some sort of like higher 386 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:35,560 goal or higher purpose or higher value that you can hold onto and 387 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,600 remind yourself, like, actually love is more important in that 388 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,080 moment for me than closure. Or like, yeah, like connection 389 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:44,800 is more important for me than closure. 390 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,400 And vulnerability is more those values and reminding yourself of 391 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,120 that and then choosing that despite the fear you're gonna do 392 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:53,360 it. That's another thing that I'm a 393 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,600 big fan of. And it's been a big aha moment 394 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,160 actually for me in general. It's realizing that we have to 395 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,880 do things despite the fear and with the fear, rather than 396 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,760 waiting for it, you know, yeah, rather than waiting for it, for 397 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,280 it not to be scary anymore. Like you kind of have to, yeah, 398 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,920 be in discomfort, put yourself out there. 399 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,240 And that's definitely another thing with with relationships 400 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,160 and couples. It's like people realizing that, 401 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,680 yeah, it is very uncomfortable. And sometimes they're like, why 402 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,760 is this so uncomfortable? Like, yeah. 403 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,680 But it's just, yeah, it's part of it. 404 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,480 It's part of it because it is. It is. 405 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,680 You can't take fear out of the equation all together. 406 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,920 And if you wait, you're gonna wait for a very long time. 407 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:34,880 Most like you. You're gonna wait for your 408 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,640 entire life, essentially. Yeah. 409 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,800 For the fear to disappear. It's not gonna disappear, but it 410 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,200 will. Like it will lessen. 411 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,760 Yes, it will diminish. It will diminish because the 412 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,360 more you you do it, the more than your brain and body also 413 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:53,320 learn that it's OK, it's safer, you know, the more with every 414 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,800 exposure you know, you learn step by step that it's actually 415 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,240 safe to to take the. Yeah, absolutely. 416 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,440 OK, So let's talk about the the other three because I'm just 417 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,640 fascinated and I think this is really, really valuable also for 418 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,040 the listener. So criticism, criticism like why 419 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,120 is this such? Why is this a part of those four 420 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,760 markers of downfall? Yeah, whatever. 421 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,160 My is a relationship. Yeah, Criticism. 422 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,840 It's, I think one of one of the most common behaviors that I 423 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,800 witnessed. It's because it's so much 424 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,120 easier. It's such a human thing to want 425 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:33,080 to put the blame outside of ourselves. 426 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,560 Like just pointing the finger outward. 427 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,200 That's just like a yeah. It's the opposite of like 428 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,040 vulnerability. It's the opposite of taking 429 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,720 accountability. It's like you're the problem. 430 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,120 You did this, you did that. You didn't do this just like 431 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:50,640 using the new language. So yeah, talking about the other 432 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,520 person's behaviors, the other person's faults, that's science. 433 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,840 And people think that when they're missing foreign, they 434 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,120 think that using that will maybe help change your partner, but 435 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,200 that's not what helps change your partner. 436 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,400 No one likes to receive criticism. 437 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,000 No one likes to feel like they're. 438 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,920 Yeah, it's and that's why defensiveness and criticism kind 439 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,440 of go together because it's kind of the automatic reaction when 440 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,280 you feel criticized and blamed. Like you go into defensive mode. 441 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,720 Like, no, that's not me. And then it's like a cycle. 442 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,640 Yeah. Yep, Yep. 443 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,720 Of course. Yeah, that is what happens. 444 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,840 Yeah. And I think like when I think 445 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,800 about the moments where I've struggled with this, and I'm 446 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,640 sure we've always, we've all been in this boat at least at 447 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,120 some point. It's very for human and 448 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,120 especially, OK. So my listeners and myself 449 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:44,120 included, very high standards for the self. 450 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:48,680 Very, you know, most of the ladies that I talked to have 451 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,560 been very critical of themselves, which is part of the 452 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,600 equation for sure. Perfectionism. 453 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,560 Perfectionism. Yeah. 454 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:59,040 Being the good girl, always being the good girl and being 455 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,040 afraid of making mistakes, for sure. 456 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,320 And all of that. So it's part of the whole thing, 457 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,680 totally. I have totally seen and noticed 458 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:11,360 that if I'm critical of myself, it will be betrayed and will 459 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,080 manifest in how I relate to my husband, for example. 460 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,320 Absolutely. Yeah. 461 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,440 It does start with the criticism of self for sure. 462 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,600 And the patterns, the patterns often people have observed in 463 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,840 their in their family of origin also like with their parents and 464 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,440 how they've been criticized potentially. 465 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,720 And that's just been the norm. And yeah, it is how we typically 466 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,200 it's like it's a big issue, I think for so many women. 467 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,240 Yeah, like just the the self criticism and yeah, the 468 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,920 projection. How do we how do we start to 469 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,520 unravel that pattern of self criticism? 470 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,440 Yeah, I think self compassion is huge. 471 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,320 Like learning to reframe the well, yeah, reframe the way you 472 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,880 talk to yourself also, because often we don't realize that the 473 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,160 way we were talking to ourselves and the inner dialogue we have 474 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,840 in our heads is like really damaging and really negative. 475 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,960 And I'm a big fan of self compassion. 476 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,040 I think it's like, it's definitely a therapeutic tool I 477 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,240 use a lot because I think it's, it's relevant for so many 478 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,120 different things. And it's like, yeah, being able 479 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:21,240 to basically change, like, talk more kindly to yourself, be more 480 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,960 understanding with yourself, like tolerate making mistakes. 481 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,240 That's a huge one also. Yeah, How do we tolerate making 482 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,560 mistakes? This is, I love talking about 483 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,240 this because it's so like apropos. 484 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,480 It's so part of the core message of what I do is to get women out 485 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:45,080 of the stuckness of I can't make mistakes, I can't be seen, and I 486 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,720 can't create my own thing and put it out there for other 487 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,440 people to see and criticize because I am criticizing myself 488 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,920 so much already. Yeah. 489 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,480 What are some of the tangible steps that we can take to move 490 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,800 toward being more compassionate toward ourselves? 491 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,080 I think part of it for me, it's going to be about definitely 492 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,720 reframing the way we talk to ourselves. 493 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,680 And this can be like an ongoing practice of like, you know, even 494 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,520 just affirmations of like, it's OK for me to be human. 495 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,760 It's OK for me to make mistakes. And like, yeah, having those, 496 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:30,680 those affirmations and reframes available to us and then 497 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,160 building a new habit around that, building a new habit 498 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,640 around that. But then it's also gonna be 499 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,000 about, you know, eventually also exposing ourselves to the 500 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:41,400 discomfort and the imperfection. Like even. 501 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,680 And it can start in very, very small ways. 502 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,240 Like, it can be like, OK, I even struggle to send an imperfect 503 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,000 e-mail, like, or like I struggle to. 504 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,360 Yeah, like to to say the wrong thing at work or whatever. 505 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:58,080 It's like just exposing yourself in increments to like 506 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,720 imperfection. So just send this e-mail and let 507 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,760 it be imperfect maybe. Yeah, let yourself say the wrong 508 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,040 thing in that situation, like. And the more we practice those 509 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,440 things, the easier it gets. I think it's like everything. 510 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,080 The more we practice, obviously the easier it gets. 511 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,880 But putting ourselves in situations where we know we're 512 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,160 not going to be totally in control also, and we're going to 513 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,960 have to deal with like maybe being awkward, being imperfect. 514 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,360 That's been really helpful for me. 515 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,640 For example, for me, one thing that's been quite helpful 516 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,720 throughout the years has been going to ecstatic dances. 517 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,360 I don't know if you know about them, but I do. 518 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,800 Yeah. I first encountered them when I 519 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,200 was still living in the US, And I remember the first time I 520 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,480 heard about the whole concept. It's kind of basically ecstatic 521 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,240 dance is like a space that is created with no alcohol. 522 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,240 No, no talking actually either. And people just come to dance 523 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,480 and you're meant to Just Dance freely and be who you are and 524 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,240 express just, you know, move however you want to move. 525 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,560 If you want to sit down, you can sit down. 526 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,440 If you want to like go crazy, you can go crazy. 527 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,520 It's really just about allowing yourself to move however you 528 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,240 want to move. And I remember the first time I 529 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,960 encountered it, I thought, wow, like, that's amazing because 530 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,480 it's all about just expression without performance. 531 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,000 And I think that's definitely a key element. 532 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,680 And yeah, it felt very uncomfortable the first times I 533 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,280 went because it's like, Oh my God, if you struggle with 534 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,560 perfectionism and being seen, especially being seen also, it's 535 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,720 like, wow, so uncomfortable to actually allow myself to move 536 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,560 however I want to move and not feel. 537 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,320 I might feel awkward about it, but yeah, so, so that's just one 538 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,120 example that, you know, for me has helped, but there's plenty 539 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,160 of other ways that, you know, there's plenty of other things 540 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,720 that you can do around that and. I love that because getting into 541 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:49,640 the body helps to like slow down the negative chatter in our 542 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,440 minds. And that's like one of the 543 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,120 biggest things that I've also talked about, like how much we 544 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,080 are stuck in our heads for sure and not embodied. 545 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,320 And so I think that's a beautiful thing. 546 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,480 And also like the accountability piece, if you want to start 547 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,280 introducing those uncomfortable moments where you feel like 548 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,600 patterns will come up, but you're sending an e-mail saying 549 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,400 the wrong thing if someone is holding you gently accountable 550 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,440 and and you know, some of the tools. 551 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,440 OK, so how do I ground, you know, ground down in my body? 552 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,720 How do I center myself when I feel uncomfortable? 553 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:31,120 What, what do you tell your clients to do in the moment of 554 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,480 trigger, in the moment of OK, I see now the anxiety is coming 555 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,800 up. So what do we do in those? 556 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,600 That's a very good question because there's actually those 557 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,920 kind of two mentalities that I have found helpful. 1 558 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,680 specifically in the moment of trigger like there's kind of one 559 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,800 Ave. which is like self regulation. 560 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,280 So like using tools to self regulate and whether it's like 561 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,480 deep breathing, like grounding, like 5 senses grounding, like 562 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,920 there's many different tools available out there that you can 563 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,200 learn like, in order to, yeah, like regulate your nervous 564 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,040 system and calm yourself down. And yeah, feel more basically 565 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,760 like lower your, your threat modes in the moment, right? 566 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,320 Like come back into a state of regulation instead of fight or 567 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,840 flight, because often we end up being in fight or flight in 568 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,520 those moments. However, something that I think 569 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,160 I've, I've actually learned over these past, well, maybe these 570 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,840 past two years is that sometimes I love also those regulation 571 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:24,800 tools. I think they're great, but 572 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,840 sometimes they can also be used in a compulsive manner. 573 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,440 And I've noticed that about myself. 574 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,560 And it's something that I've, yeah, really kind of deep dived 575 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,200 into because if you start using those tools in a compulsive way, 576 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,560 you're kind of reinforcing that it's not OK to have this 577 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,520 emotion, right? Yeah. 578 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,440 For example, I have AI have a huge feeling coming up. 579 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,120 I have a lot of anxiety in my body. 580 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,840 If I, you know, try to compulsively try and make it go 581 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,640 away by using a tool like whether, yeah, whatever tool it 582 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,480 might be, I'm kind of teaching also my body and brain that it's 583 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,520 not OK for me to have those big emotions. 584 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:00,920 It's not OK for me to feel anxious. 585 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,600 And so, yeah, it's, yeah, I know self regulation is very popular 586 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,040 and I definitely, you know, think it's, it has its place and 587 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,960 it's useful. But I've this is one of the 588 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:16,360 things that I've had kind of like, yeah, I believe a change 589 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,800 of opinion about is that it can be, it can also become 590 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,200 compulsive and then it's kind of like counterproductive and. 591 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,920 It becomes a crutch. Becomes a crutch and then you're 592 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,560 kind of not allowing yourself to also just have the big emotion 593 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,200 and sometimes we need to also allow ourselves to just yeah, I 594 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,120 feel anxious right now and it's OK I'm not going to die I'm not 595 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,640 going to die from anxiety actually. 596 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,960 Like it's not going to kill me. This big emotion is not going to 597 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,360 kill me. I can continue doing the thing I 598 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,760 was going to do and do it anyway, right. 599 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,960 And, and continue on the road I was on while experiencing this 600 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,080 discomfort, while experiencing this big emotion. 601 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,480 And I don't always need to try and yeah, like for like trying 602 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,120 and suppress it or, or regulate myself or like, it's also OK to 603 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,560 make it go. Yeah, Make it go away. 604 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,880 Yeah. Whether it be the, the big 605 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,480 anxiety or the big sadness, the grief, you know, Yeah. 606 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,000 It's, it's that's been actually a big learning moment for me. 607 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,760 Also. It's like big emotions are not 608 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,480 dangerous. I know that they're super 609 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,440 uncomfortable, but they're not, they're not. 610 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,480 Yeah, they're not dangerous in themselves and it's OK to 611 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,880 experience them and it's super uncomfortable. 612 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,240 But yeah, it's something I've also learned a lot through going 613 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:32,040 through grief actually. Like the depth of, of emotion 614 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,960 and intensity you feel when you you go through grief. 615 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,400 Losing someone, for example, it's like so, so intense and it 616 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,160 feels sometimes like it's going to make you insane. 617 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,680 It feels sometimes like it might kill you, but it's like. 618 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,840 Let's let's go into that now. So I loved first, first of all, 619 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,040 I wanted to say I love that you highlighted the that it becomes 620 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,960 an almost like an issue if you use tools in a compulsive 621 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,200 manner. So that's a really, really 622 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,840 valuable point to make because the whole point should be that 623 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,679 emotions are not that you don't have to label them as bad or 624 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,920 scary, right? And then if they feel fat or 625 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,960 scary, but they're not, you know, they're not threatening 626 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,120 your, your life. So that is a really, really 627 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:23,320 valuable point to make. And now into like, being OK 628 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,719 because, like you said, a bit grief. 629 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,679 And I know that you lost your mom. 630 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,639 Yeah. And was this like a couple years 631 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,880 ago? A few years and a half ago now. 632 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:33,920 Yeah. Right. 633 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,280 So I was that quite recent still, yeah. 634 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,520 It is still quite recent and the stages of grief and the initial 635 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,040 shock and just learning to be OK with those emotions. 636 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,040 Like you said, you felt like you could not bear it. 637 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,280 No, it's sometimes feels you can't bear it. 638 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,840 Yeah, it feels unbearable, literally. 639 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:58,000 So it's also very complex. No, no, go ahead, go. 640 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,280 Ahead. No, it's also so, so complex 641 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,120 because grief, it has many different aspects to it. 642 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:09,200 You know, it tends to also bring up it can be traumatic for a lot 643 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,120 of people because it brings up this kind of survival mode also, 644 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,720 you know, especially for you, someone who are very close to, 645 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,640 you know, like a mother or a partner or, you know, a kid, 646 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,720 even. It can throw us into survival 647 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:24,280 mode often does throw us into survival mode because obviously 648 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,240 we're social beings and we rely on each other for, for life and 649 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:31,040 for survival. And, and it's like losing 650 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,640 someone who you considered part of your tribe, you know, part of 651 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,480 your core identity even. Definitely, it's like it's 652 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,960 shocking. It's very shocking. 653 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,600 And so it can feel. That's why there's often denial 654 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,840 and shock and numbness in the beginning stages, which I 655 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,160 definitely experienced. And a lot of disbelief also can 656 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,120 happen, especially in those earlier stages as your entire 657 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,320 system is trying to process what just happened. 658 00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,040 And so, yeah, I think it's complex because there's the 659 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,440 grief elements of like the big, big emotions and the pain. 660 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,440 And then there's also the, yeah, the fact that they can send us 661 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,880 into threats and, and, and survival mode. 662 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,480 And you kind of have to address both of those things. 663 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:18,080 Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes when 664 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,960 discussing grief, there's a lot of emphasis, OK, in the 665 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,600 discussion of, well, how did you move past that? 666 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,800 Like, there's that. Well, how did you, you know, get 667 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,400 over it? Yeah, sometimes that's just like 668 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,160 bypassing it is the whole thing. Yeah. 669 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:41,080 Also, maybe it's because we have this obsession of being like, 670 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,320 the being happy and being productive and being, you know, 671 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,800 part of this, this 24/7 ongoing, you know, everything's going on. 672 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,080 Absolutely everything is on in this society, right? 673 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,800 That's the point. So when grief hits you and it's 674 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,080 like you can't just OK, I'm just, you know, process these. 675 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,840 I'm, I'm, I'm a journal and I'll be fine in a year and then I'll 676 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,080 be the happy, productive self again. 677 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,280 No. And that's not the point, no. 678 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,840 Not at all. That's really the point. 679 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,200 You have to accept that it's going to be a very hard time and 680 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,800 it's you don't know how long it's going to last and, and part 681 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,360 of it is going to last forever. That's also the, you know, the, 682 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,440 the reality is that if it's someone who's that close to you, 683 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,760 you're going to miss them forever. 684 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,520 Yeah, going around that. Yeah, I totally agree that the 685 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,560 the fact that we live in society where, you know, you have to be 686 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,760 productive and happy. And, and this is often why also, 687 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,000 not only for someone going through grief, you're already 688 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,960 feeling totally lost and, and in pain and alone, but sometimes 689 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,040 other people don't really know how to respond to grief also. 690 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,480 And so you often hear people say things that and I feel a bit 691 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,200 hurtful, like, yeah, you know, it's, yeah, everything happened. 692 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,120 Even saying like everything happens for a reason or you 693 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,160 know, like they're in a better place or you'll get past it or 694 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,840 yeah, you know, or, or even worse, if someone says like, oh, 695 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,840 it's already been a year or it's already been two years, like. 696 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,040 Oh my gosh, yeah, please don't use any of. 697 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,280 Those phrases, I know oftentimes it doesn't come from a bad 698 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,800 place. I think it's just because some 699 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,600 of them I could have said that even before probably. 700 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,600 It's just that it's, I think a lot of the times it comes from 701 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,600 the fact that the person themselves are feeling 702 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,480 uncomfortable with how absolutely, yeah, they don't 703 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:24,920 know how what to say or what to do. 704 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,040 Because oftentimes there's not much you can say or do apart 705 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,600 from just being with the sadness of it. 706 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,880 And it's not something you can fix. 707 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,920 It's one of those things you really can't fix, you know, And 708 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,600 so, and because we live in a society where we want to fix 709 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,120 things, as you said, and want to move on and be happy and, and, 710 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,760 and so that's how people respond. 711 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,280 It's like, oh, we'll fix it, you know? 712 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,640 But that's, you know, I think the most important thing that 713 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,640 someone needs when they're going through that, and I know 714 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,080 definitely for myself is just feeling held. 715 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,240 And it's feeling like someone is saying like, yeah, that's really 716 00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:58,840 sucks. That's really painful. 717 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,600 I'm sorry, You know, And yeah, for me, I was really, I was also 718 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,360 really lucky actually, because I met my partner just two months 719 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,720 after my mom passed away, which was pretty crazy. 720 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,680 And so, yeah, he, he was really also a key element for me in 721 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,680 those moments. I bet. 722 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,200 Yeah. Absolutely. 723 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:24,960 Just sometimes holding me, you know, like, and yeah, holding me 724 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,520 crying. That was probably one of the 725 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,520 most healing things for me, feeling just held in my big 726 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,680 emotion. And especially as someone with a 727 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,200 bit more avoidance tendencies, like that's can be definitely 728 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,320 uncomfortable, like letting myself be held in that. 729 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,760 And so, yeah, it's so healing, yeah. 730 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,640 When you just when you just get to feel with someone and there 731 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:50,680 is no sense of like the other person is expecting you to get 732 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:56,320 over it or or is somehow expecting a change in your 733 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,520 demeanor, your your behavior, your feelings. 734 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,760 So what are some of the other things that you just if someone 735 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,920 is like wondering, OK, well, I really. 736 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,320 Want to be mindful of this. I don't want to say things that 737 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,040 just, you know, feel like there are these frogs that slip out 738 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,240 and and dope. If someone is like OK, I don't 739 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:20,320 want to be mindful of, but I don't really. 740 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,640 I can't empathize because I've not been there and that is 741 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,760 completely OK. That's completely OK. 742 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,280 You don't need to understand. And you can even say like even 743 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,320 saying like, I just don't, yeah, there's no way I can understand 744 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,000 what you're going through. But I'm here for you. 745 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,280 Even just saying I'm here for you, you know, I don't 746 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:36,360 understand what you're going through. 747 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,360 It's, you know, yeah, it's OK if you don't have to. 748 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:41,920 Yeah. Maybe also just letting the 749 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,520 person know they don't have to perform. 750 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,920 They don't have to be or do anything that they can just let 751 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,360 themselves, Yeah, experience whatever they have to 752 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,040 experience. And that's OK. 753 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:52,520 That's the most healing thing, definitely. 754 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,040 And also I would say the other thing is, especially in the 755 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,160 early, earlier stages of grief, a lot of people will say, and, 756 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,960 you know, it comes from a very good intention, but will say, 757 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,520 oh, let me know if you need anything. 758 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,840 You know, I'm here. If you need anything, just call 759 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,760 me. And it's comes from a very good 760 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,760 place. But the issue is that often, 761 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,000 especially someone who's going through such intense this stare 762 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,320 and and strong emotions, like, they might not, they might not, 763 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,240 you know, take the step of reaching out. 764 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,360 Yeah. They might. 765 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,560 They're not going to call. They're not going to call. 766 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,040 They might just let them isolate themselves because it just feels 767 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,120 too much. Just everything feels too much 768 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,600 in that moment. So they probably will try and 769 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,840 isolate themselves. So it might actually be a bit 770 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,840 more helpful to take more initiative like, yeah, show up 771 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,440 maybe a little bit more in the, especially in those earlier 772 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,680 days, like, right, yeah. Exactly. 773 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,720 Being more active if you care about. 774 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:49,480 Someone being a bit more active, like even just like maybe you 775 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,160 know, leaving them some sort of some a care package or you know, 776 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,800 even if you don't have to in their on their front door, for 777 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,000 example, like just small acts of kindness that show initiative 778 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,960 can definitely make a huge difference. 779 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,360 Yeah, Yeah, that is so true. And that's like, it's often the 780 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,960 same if someone is in for any reason, depressed or feeling 781 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:16,000 just, you know, going through this shutdown response or 782 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,080 anything that is similar to that, it, you know, when you're 783 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,280 in that state. And I again, because I'm also 784 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:27,720 more of that avoidant type and I've retreat it's, it's so 785 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:32,640 helpful if someone else is active or actively coming closer 786 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,640 to you or opening the door for you. 787 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,280 So that it's like, I see this image of there's this heavy door 788 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,200 between you and other people. And when you're in that 789 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,000 shutdown, you don't have the strength necessarily to push 790 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,920 open that door. So if you on the other side can 791 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,240 do that for them, it's immensely helpful. 792 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,240 It's so helpful. Yes, so helpful. 793 00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:02,080 Now that it's been like 3 1/2 years, how do you see the 794 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,200 changes in yourself throughout this journey? 795 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,360 Like there have been so many things that you've learned, 796 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,960 you've, you've written about this topic on your blog and on 797 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,720 Instagram and there's just so much I know that you're 798 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:22,320 introspective, obviously, I feel you. 799 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,800 I feel you on that. So being very like highly aware 800 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,240 of self. And you know, you also talk 801 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:34,200 about highly sensitive people. So how does that journey? 802 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,360 Like how do you see your own growth in the sense and, and I'm 803 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,800 not talking about again, gain bypassing you and what are the 804 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,520 gains of this? And what did you, what did you 805 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:50,040 extract from this experience? But there I I bet there have 806 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,240 been changes in you. Yeah, there have been changes in 807 00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:55,240 me. I mean, I think I've already 808 00:43:55,240 --> 00:44:00,600 mentioned it earlier, but a big thing for me is the knowing that 809 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,600 I can tolerate big emotions and I can tolerate big uncomfortable 810 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,440 feelings. That's a huge, huge one. 811 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,360 Yeah. Instead of running away from 812 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,360 them, instead of trying to avoid and. 813 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,680 And hide, like I've actually, I think throughout this experience 814 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,320 gained confidence. Yeah. 815 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,040 Just gained confidence in my ability to be with discomfort 816 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,680 because it's been so like, I'm really proud of the way I was. 817 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,000 I was able to work through it and. 818 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,200 And kind of, yeah, pick myself back from it because at some 819 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,760 point I really felt like I was deep and honestly, a dark night 820 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,920 of the soul. Like really lost, yeah, lost a 821 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,960 lot of my faith in life also. And so it felt like the rug had 822 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,400 really been pulled from underneath me. 823 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,720 And I was like just falling, you know, off a Cliff. 824 00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,840 And so I, I, I just, I think I've grown a lot in the sense 825 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,080 that I'm, yeah, I'm proud of the journey that I've taken. 826 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,040 And, and I think I've grown a lot in my capacity to tolerate 827 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,040 discomfort and to tolerate big emotions and big feelings and 828 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,160 that they're not going to kill me. 829 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,800 Yeah, that's huge actually. That is. 830 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:12,440 And I bet it has unlocked a completely different ability to 831 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,800 be present for someone else. Yeah, even just in therapy. 832 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,400 But, you know, not just in therapy, in life, like in 833 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,320 relationships. Yeah. 834 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,320 Because like we mentioned it earlier came up, if we're 835 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,480 feeling uncomfortable because someone else is going through 836 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:36,320 something and then it's just like it can create this gap 837 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,400 right between you and the other person. 838 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:46,840 So being being able to feel or be present and feel like Co 839 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,560 regulate or whatever you would say. 840 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,200 Yeah, I mean, Co regulation is huge. 841 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,360 I mean, I think that's another piece that's so key. 842 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,000 Like we can't go through those big things alone. 843 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,840 Like, yeah, but like that's another big elements I've 844 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,320 actually taken, now that I think of it like that I've taken away 845 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,840 from all this is, you know, it's really confirmed again, my 846 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,200 belief in like the healing power of relationships like that, that 847 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,600 yeah, it's I mean, I've, I've, I think Co regulation with my 848 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,560 partner has been actually a key element in in moving through all 849 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:23,560 of this for me. So many times we spent hours 850 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:29,360 just cuddling skin to skin and that's such like a primal, like, 851 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,120 you know, yeah, primal sense of safety basically that I'm in 852 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,920 connection with you and I'm safe. 853 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:40,720 Yeah, yeah. And also, I mean, it's, it's not 854 00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:43,320 always easy and it's been also hard for me to find people who's 855 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,280 who've gone through the same thing, like in person. 856 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,280 But I've joined, as I said, like online communities of people who 857 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,160 are grievers around the same age. 858 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,080 And that was a very helpful tool. 859 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,480 So for me, like just reading other people's stories, like, 860 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,040 yeah, knowing that other people are going through the same 861 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,600 things, the same emotions, the same intensity that yeah, it's 862 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,640 like the community aspects and the Co regulation and the fact 863 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,560 that when you especially when you lose someone who's been that 864 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,440 important to you, yeah, you just need to feel a bit more 865 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,960 surrounded for a while. You need to feel like you're not 866 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,680 alone. Yeah, alone. 867 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,960 Feeling alone in it is, is really hard. 868 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,280 It's part of it definitely, because no one can truly 869 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,200 understand exactly what that loss means because obviously 870 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,320 you're the only one who went through that specific loss. 871 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,880 But but yeah, we need each other. 872 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,360 That's been another key take away from me like. 873 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,840 Yeah, yeah. And I bet that has been the key 874 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,840 aspect that helps you to sort of get back into life. 875 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,600 Or yeah, for sure, yeah. Right. 876 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,760 Absolutely. If someone is now struggling 877 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,800 with that and being like, I don't like, I don't know who, 878 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,040 like who do I have? I feel so alone. 879 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,800 Yeah, that's honestly so hard. And I'm sorry, you know, for 880 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,680 anyone who feels that way. I mean, this is where like 881 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,320 having, you know, doing therapy can be also really helpful 882 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,800 because you're going to get that compassionate witness, you know, 883 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,920 to walk you through those stages and all this process. 884 00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:17,120 Yeah. Like I think joining online 885 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,200 communities is, you know, I'm going to say it again, but it's 886 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,560 so accessible. You know, you don't need to. 887 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,640 You can, just anyone has access to that nowadays. 888 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,560 You don't need to go anywhere and don't need to do anything. 889 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,200 Especially if you feel so overwhelmed you don't know where 890 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,520 to start. Just find people online who you 891 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:38,160 can at least relate to and talk to about it. 892 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,480 True. Yeah, very true. 893 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,720 And also just, you know, if anyone is this feeling that like 894 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:49,360 knowing that you truly aren't alone, like there's so many 895 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,960 people who feel that way. And and sometimes even just 896 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,440 knowing that it's helpful in terms of self compassion, like 897 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,720 I'm not the only. Yeah, like someone else is 898 00:48:57,720 --> 00:48:59,800 experiencing this emotion right now in this world. 899 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,760 Like I'm not the only one who's gone through this. 900 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,120 Other people have gone before me. 901 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,160 Like, I know that, yeah. There's another human being 902 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,760 who's felt exactly how I felt right now, who's feel, who's 903 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,640 felt just as lost as I'm feeling right now. 904 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,440 That's. Yeah. 905 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,080 I think even just that can provide some soothing. 906 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,480 It's yes, Yeah. Absolutely Often I hear that 907 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:26,400 grief changes the way you experience joy that it that it 908 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,080 adds layers to it. What is your experience with 909 00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:36,440 that like? How does joy feel now and and 910 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,800 how do you cultivate joy in your day-to-day life, just even in 911 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,520 your like recent? Experiences, I think what can 912 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,840 happen at first is that people can feel guilty even for feeling 913 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,720 joy again because, yeah, because maybe, you know, if you've lost 914 00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:54,400 someone, they're not there anymore. 915 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,520 And so there might be a feeling of guilt around it. 916 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,640 But I think what ends up happening and what's happened 917 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,840 for me is that sometimes you experience a big surge of 918 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,360 happiness and then immediately it's kind of accompanied by, Oh 919 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,840 my God, Like they're not there to experience this with me or 920 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,680 why? Why can't they experience this 921 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,440 also right now with me? Or how come they're not there to 922 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,840 witness me in that? I've definitely had those 923 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,800 moments where it's like, I feel, yeah, if I'm having a really, 924 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,760 you know, a moment with my partner, for example, where I 925 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,640 feel so loved and I feel a lot of love. 926 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,640 And then it kind of hits me that she, my mom's not here anymore. 927 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,240 And so it's kind of, yeah, there's the, there's the joy and 928 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:36,720 then there's, it's accompanied by the grief and by the sadness. 929 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:39,360 It's almost like they kind of start coexisting together. 930 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,080 And not always, you know, sometimes it's definitely, it 931 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,720 happens also that I experience joy and, you know, it does, it's 932 00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:49,280 not necessarily always accompanied by, by sadness or 933 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,400 grief. And I, I definitely try to allow 934 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,760 myself to have those moments. I think it's so important. 935 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,880 How do I cultivate joy? I think for me it's like also in 936 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,040 the small things in daily life. And really, yeah. 937 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,640 I mean, I, I try definitely to practice also some gratitude for 938 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,560 the things I have and the things, the things I've 939 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,160 received, the things I'm grateful for. 940 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,200 And in the day-to-day, I even just like small things, like a 941 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,560 cup of a good warm cup of coffee or, you know, going on a 942 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,720 beautiful walk. Like there's usually always a 943 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:24,680 little something that can stir up like a feeling of awe or 944 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,280 yeah, of gratitude. Yeah, absolutely. 945 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,600 And I think gratitude, I mean, I love gratitude. 946 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,560 I think it's not to say that one has to, you know, especially if 947 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,640 you're really in the depth of grief, like I don't think you 948 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,360 should force yourself to feel gratitude if if you're really in 949 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,160 the throes of it, but you know, when there's a bit more 950 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,680 stability, definitely gratitude is, is a great tool. 951 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:52,320 Yes, yeah, it is, definitely is. And I love like, I think those 952 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,520 little moments of joy they, you know, for me, they are more 953 00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:01,760 satisfying than some huge achievement or some, you know, 954 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,000 some big thing that I would. Kind of agree, yeah. 955 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:10,040 That, you know, our ego usually, yeah, paints this picture that 956 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:14,000 oh this big thing like. So, you know, having the ring on 957 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,560 your finger and having the house and you know, I don't know what 958 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:18,560 it is I. Agree. 959 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,440 Actually, yeah, I think it's because maybe a lot of pressure 960 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,200 that comes with it, it's like it's, yeah. 961 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,440 It's like, oh, there's this big thing and you're supposed to 962 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,440 also feel really happy about it. And perhaps like the pressure is 963 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:33,040 an added layer versus if you're just in your daily life at home 964 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,440 and you're enjoying like a nice, you know, yeah, sunrise or 965 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,640 sunset or whatever, like cup of tea, that's just a mundane 966 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,600 moment. There's no pressure around it. 967 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,040 It's just mundane and you can. Exactly. 968 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,800 Yeah, the lack of pressure is the key here. 969 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,560 I find so often like, you know, this, we've, we all have 970 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,600 experienced this, that the anticipation of something is 971 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,400 what actually brings a lot of like, yes, satisfaction. 972 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,200 And when you finally get something hit the goal or 973 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,840 whatever and it just falls flat Totally. 974 00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,600 It's like, no, I don't feel the way I thought I would feel. 975 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,760 Absolutely. And that's not happening when 976 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,920 you're enjoying that cup of tea or cup of coffee and you see a 977 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,560 beautiful sunset or sun sunrise and you're enjoying just the 978 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,520 mundane moment. So there's no like, you know, 979 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,480 there's not that pressure. No, there's no pressure. 980 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,560 I just, you know, I am such a believer in cultivating joy on 981 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:42,400 purpose because if we wait for those big things and we are like 982 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:47,920 stalling feeling joy or giving us permission or giving 983 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,320 ourselves permission to feel joy before that happens. 984 00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:58,360 It's just it's going to be so much less satisfying to to then 985 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,800 then hit some goal, you know, whatever that might be. 986 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,040 You. OK, Let's just take a very 987 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,080 common one for women losing weight. 988 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,040 And this is something that I've been, I've been thinking of 989 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,720 because I'm still actively wanting to shed weight after 990 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:19,960 pregnancy and stuff and noticing like, OK, if I wait until I hit 991 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:25,960 that goal to be satisfied with myself to, or to be happy with 992 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:30,600 myself, to be accepting of myself, then it's, it's not, 993 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:35,600 it's not going to happen when I hit hit a certain number or any 994 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,520 sort of metric. So it happens. 995 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,600 And, and I noticed that also those old perfectionistic 996 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:47,640 tendencies for me, they have definitely like shown up in 997 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,440 moments. And it's a really active thing 998 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:55,600 on my part to reframe that in the moment and be like, Nope, do 999 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,080 you know what? I am not going to feel better 1000 00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:03,280 about myself when when I hit some goal, if I am denying it 1001 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,640 actively. I'm making that a habit in the 1002 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,640 now. Do you have any experiences of, 1003 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,560 of your own when it comes to this of like sort of denying 1004 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:17,960 yourselves the joy and contentment of what you have 1005 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,440 because you should have, you know, you should achieve 1006 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,600 something different or you or you're waiting until something 1007 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,640 happens? Yeah, I mean, I have many, many 1008 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,080 examples of that. Definitely. 1009 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,600 I've had the weight thing also. There's the career, my souls, 1010 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:39,720 and there's the yeah, the getting a partner, also being in 1011 00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:42,080 a relationship. There's all these things, yeah, 1012 00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:45,200 where it's like waiting for the next thing. 1013 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,680 And it almost feels at some point, I've reflected on the 1014 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,000 fact that it almost felt sometimes like my life hadn't 1015 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,960 truly begun until I could hit that milestone, hit this goal. 1016 00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,080 And then that's been huge for me to realize, like, actually life 1017 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,360 has begun in Annabelle. Like life has begun. 1018 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,600 Like, it's hard to wait. Like your life has begun. 1019 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,640 It's now, you know, And actually going through what I've gone 1020 00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,640 through, losing my mom has also helped with that in the sense 1021 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,320 that you realize that life can end at any moment. 1022 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:17,480 Also, like you realize, you truly realize that death is. 1023 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,160 Yeah, death is real. Death is real. 1024 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:21,800 Like, you know, we all know death is real. 1025 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,080 But when you really, yeah, when you really see it for yourself 1026 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,160 and experience it for yourself, it's a totally different thing 1027 00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,840 where you realize that yeah, people, you're gonna lose 1028 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,000 everyone around you. I mean, it sounds so sad to say 1029 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:37,040 that, but it's like, yeah, we're all gonna die, and life has 1030 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,960 already begun and we need to start now being grateful for the 1031 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,560 things we have and appreciating the things we have because the 1032 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,040 moment's gonna be lost. Every moment's gonna be lost. 1033 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:48,320 And yeah. Yeah. 1034 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,280 And that's the other thing. It's like, really, really 1035 00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,120 realizing that also through the lens of like. 1036 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,080 And I know most people who go through grief go through stages 1037 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,760 of guilt and, like, regrets, but just those moments where I 1038 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,400 reflect on the fact that I could have been even more appreciative 1039 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,240 of the moments with my mom and just. 1040 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:07,640 Yeah, like if, you know, it's like there's only one thing you 1041 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:08,960 want to do. It's like go back to those 1042 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:10,960 mundane moments with your loved 10. 1043 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,760 My goodness, yes. And that's. 1044 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,600 Yeah, that hits really, really hard often. 1045 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,280 Yeah, So. I think, I think that's 1046 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,640 something that you can avoid. Like even if you were as mindful 1047 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,240 as you could like be most mindful version of you in those 1048 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,280 moments you would like, at least for me, I would still feel. 1049 00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,040 Yeah, probably guilt. I think it's inevitable to feel 1050 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:32,920 the guilt. Yeah, yeah, it's always. 1051 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:37,400 It's part of it definitely, for sure, for sure. 1052 00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,800 But at the same time, also good reminder that, yeah, it's 1053 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,320 important to appreciate those moments and, and to live for 1054 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,040 here now and not wait until because, yeah, otherwise you're 1055 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,520 gonna wait until your life is over and, and you never know 1056 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,080 when life will be over. So yeah, exactly that is Yeah, 1057 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:55,880 again, one of those cliche things. 1058 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,040 I know it's cliche. But, and, and it sounds kind of 1059 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:05,040 morbid, but for me, I, I do actively think of like of me on 1060 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,000 my deathbed. I do think of sometimes I have 1061 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,920 this, you know, just, I allow myself to think of scenarios 1062 00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:17,800 where I've lost, for example, my husband or my son and, and just, 1063 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,680 it's, it's a horrible idea, obviously. 1064 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:25,400 And I don't stay there, but sometimes I do consciously allow 1065 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:30,240 myself to think because it hits me immediately and it's, it's, 1066 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:34,360 it's such a strong wake up call in the moment. 1067 00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,360 It is. And it, and it just reorders 1068 00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,280 everything, all of your priorities in that moment. 1069 00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,000 And you, you start noticing, OK, well, the things that I was 1070 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,840 worrying about are nothing compared to this. 1071 00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:52,720 So maybe I don't have to spend so much time worrying about 1072 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:58,320 metrics or work as as big of a part that is of our lives, but 1073 00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,760 still, it's nothing compared to that. 1074 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:06,640 It's nothing compared to that. I mean, going back to to what 1075 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,680 I've said, some of what I've said before, but I think 1076 00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,880 relationships, it's like at the end of the day, these are the 1077 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,320 things that are most important to us on our deathbed. 1078 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,480 Yes, yeah, like nothing can replace it. 1079 00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,560 The love and the I mean, again, cliche, but still it's it's 1080 00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:23,680 true. It's like the love and 1081 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,640 connection and yeah, the good moments spent with one another. 1082 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:28,080 Yeah. Yeah. 1083 00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,240 It's, I think, I think it's so important to be able to have 1084 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:33,720 some sort of connection with death. 1085 00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:38,240 You know, that connection is not regard, but like to sometimes 1086 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,200 remind ourselves of death because otherwise we might live 1087 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:45,880 in a bit of denial that or Yeah. Like it's easy to get stuck in 1088 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,440 the routines and the mundane and to. 1089 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:52,080 Yeah, have this unconscious, maybe believe that it's going to 1090 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:56,200 last forever and that. Yeah, you have spent your time, 1091 00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,400 Yeah. Yes, yeah, it's such a great way 1092 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:04,280 to just check in with yourself to see that your priorities are 1093 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,520 the way that you actually want them to be. 1094 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:12,360 And that you're, if you say that you value something like, OK, a 1095 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,040 lot of people say they value their health and they value 1096 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,280 their family and they value friends, but is that showing? 1097 01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:23,600 Is that actually how you spend your time like we usually see 1098 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,480 with? How you spend your time, how you 1099 01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,080 spend your money is like the, you know, indicators of where 1100 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,720 your values actually lie. So I do believe it's a great 1101 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,520 thing too. Yeah, absolutely. 1102 01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,440 And I think it goes back to like living in alignment with our 1103 01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:40,440 values. Definitely. 1104 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:42,640 That's huge. I think absolutely. 1105 01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,360 And having yeah, if you're not sure what they are, just like 1106 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,800 taking the time to figure them out and putting them down on 1107 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,240 paper and yeah, and trying to get to live as close to them as 1108 01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,800 possible, yeah. Yeah, there's this exercise that 1109 01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,200 people can do to write their obituary. 1110 01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,120 And again, it sounds so morbid, but if you actually allow 1111 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:05,280 yourself to write your own obituary and you think, OK, what 1112 01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:06,840 do you actually want people to say? 1113 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,280 What do you actually want your legacy to have been? 1114 01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:16,000 It clarifies a lot of things. And and then you can just, you 1115 01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,680 know, break it down and see, okay, well, is this do do I want 1116 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:24,400 to choose a career that feeds my ego but just, you know, brings 1117 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,560 poverty to my soul? Because I think it's some sort 1118 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:33,080 of metric of success, and does that even matter at that point? 1119 01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:37,800 So yeah, I do recommend people write something like this to 1120 01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,920 see, OK, am I truly being honest with myself? 1121 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:41,880 Absolutely. Yeah. 1122 01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,960 Yeah. It's funny because I often try 1123 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,480 and visualize myself as an elderly woman and like, maybe 1124 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,760 it's a bit romanticized sometimes because I tend to do 1125 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,040 that, but like, I imagine myself just imagining like who I'd be 1126 01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,200 and what kind of older woman I'd want to be and how. 1127 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,520 Yeah, like who, what would I embody? 1128 01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:05,160 And, and then just imagining how do I get there? 1129 01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,480 How do I become her eventually? Mm Hmm. 1130 01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,240 How do I choose her in the now? Yeah, yeah. 1131 01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,000 To cultivate her, yes. Beautiful. 1132 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,680 White hair. Oh yeah, maybe we all have that 1133 01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:23,800 beautiful long white hair. Oh my goodness, these are such 1134 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,920 huge topics that we could spend the whole day talking about. 1135 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,240 Dissecting them even more, yeah. Yes, absolutely. 1136 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:37,360 And before you go I would love to hear what do you cherish 1137 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,960 about being a woman? Like what is some of the main 1138 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:46,640 things that come to mind? I love the honestly, the kind of 1139 01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,640 the girly things I love. Like what I love about being a 1140 01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:53,800 woman is like all the yeah, just being able to have fun and to be 1141 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,000 frivolous sometimes. Like the lights, that quality of 1142 01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,400 like light heartedness and and faithfulness. 1143 01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:01,840 Yeah, that's, that's the words I was looking for. 1144 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,480 Like light heartedness and playfulness. 1145 01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:06,040 I love those qualities about being a woman. 1146 01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,560 There's the fact that we can just have fun and especially 1147 01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:13,480 with each other, like, yeah, I enjoy girly things and and. 1148 01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,480 Yeah, yeah. The simple little joys of life. 1149 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,120 Oh my goodness. They are just amplified when you 1150 01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,960 allow yourself that girly lightheartedness. 1151 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,360 Yes, you mentioned. Yeah, I think that's like 1152 01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:30,160 definitely part of it. It just amplifies everything 1153 01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,320 when you no longer feel like, OK, well, this is stupid, this 1154 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,000 is girly or whatever. You know that. 1155 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,320 That story, yeah, This is why I even hesitated to say the word 1156 01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,920 girly, because it sounds a little like superficial. 1157 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,920 But I think it's one of the things I really love about being 1158 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:45,960 a woman. It's like being in touch with 1159 01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,000 that and being in touch with those lighter aspects. 1160 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,200 I mean, I love that there has been this renaissance of 1161 01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,880 girliness on some of the Internet corners or corners of 1162 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,480 the Internet, right in the femininity world, because it 1163 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,520 really deserves a renaissance in a way. 1164 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,720 You know, it's yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a whole other 1165 01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:07,280 topic. But like, I think it has been 1166 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:08,760 suppressed, you know, in many ways. 1167 01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:12,200 Like, you know, yeah, in favors of like being the best day, even 1168 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,440 a serious woman and like that, yeah, kind of cut off from those 1169 01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,800 lighter aspects. Absolutely, absolutely. 1170 01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:20,960 It's hoping for another time. Definitely. 1171 01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,280 Before you go, tell us where we can find you online. 1172 01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,200 Yeah, you can find me on my website 1173 01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:31,120 whichiswaysofblooming.com and I also have an Instagram page. 1174 01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,680 I'm not super active, but I do post sometimes and I'm actually 1175 01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,440 planning to probably be more active this year. 1176 01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:39,760 It's also ways of blooming my Instagram. 1177 01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,040 Yes, I love that name, by the way. 1178 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,080 Ways of Blooming brings. Yeah, Ways of Blooming. 1179 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,040 It brings so many beautiful images to mind. 1180 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:50,440 Anyway, thank you so much for being here. 1181 01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,240 Thank you very much. I love this conversation with 1182 01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:55,680 you. I would like I said before we 1183 01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,640 hit record that let's just imagine we're in a coffee shop 1184 01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:03,240 and and having a chat over coffee and I would love to have 1185 01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:07,640 that happen in real life. That would be so cool. 1186 01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:12,560 Maybe someday I'll get to travel with my family and we'll hit 1187 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,000 Switzerland as well. So maybe that's going to happen 1188 01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:16,840 someday. You never know. 1189 01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,040 Yes. Or if I hit Finland, yes. 1190 01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:21,720 Yes, exactly. So thank you so much. 1191 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,440 Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation. 1192 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:25,960 Yeah, I really appreciate it.