1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,360 The mystery of it continues, which is part in due to the 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,960 relationships that have developed from this with the 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,200 family, a lot of it to do with this book out in the world and 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,400 the conversations that are coming from that. 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,040 I didn't know how many people needed to hear that it's OK to 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,680 be unfixed. I thought it was the message 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,720 that I really needed and it started to resonate with me. 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:31,520 But I think the world is ready to let their sales down and just 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,400 meet life as it is. We've been fed so much messaging 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:42,160 around how to improve and self actualize and all of the growth 11 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:46,760 is, I'm not dismissing that, but I think it's just been very out 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,600 of balance with the meeting life as it is. 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,560 Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that explores the life 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,800 altering world of unexpected DNA discoveries. 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,400 I'm your host, Alexis Ourselt. This show centers the stories of 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,880 people who've experienced NP, ES or non paternal events. 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,040 In other words, people who've learned that their biological 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,400 father isn't who they thought he was. 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,920 We'll also hear from adoptees, donor conceived people, and the 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,760 families navigating these discoveries. 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,000 Get ready to follow the incredible journeys that begin 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,760 with a simple DNA test. This is DNA surprises. 23 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,600 Hosting DNA Surprises gives me the incredible opportunity to 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:44,840 speak to incredible people every week, and almost everyone I 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,440 speak to says something along the lines of I've been told to 26 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:54,400 write a book. It's true, our stories are 27 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,520 stranger than fiction. In this week's episode, I'm 28 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,600 joined by someone who wrote that book, Kimberly Warner, author of 29 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,840 Unfixed, a memoir of family mystery and the currents that 30 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,600 carry you home. Her story details her perfect 31 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,680 from the outside, but far from it on the inside. 32 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:22,360 Family loss, illness, relationships, careers, and 33 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,440 more. But as we discuss, it's anchored 34 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,160 on the revelation that the man who raised her is not her 35 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,600 biological father. I really enjoyed this 36 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,200 conversation and hope you do too. 37 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,080 Thank you for sharing your story, Kimberly. 38 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,160 Today I am joined by Kimberly Warner, author of the incredible 39 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,120 memoir Unfixed, a memoir of family, mystery, and the 40 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,440 currents that carry you Home. Thank you so much for joining 41 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,960 me, Kimberly. Oh, it's a pleasure to be here, 42 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,560 Alexis. Finally. 43 00:02:57,640 --> 00:02:59,400 Yes, finally. We've been trying to make this 44 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,920 interview happen for a while and now we're sitting down getting 45 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:06,600 to talk about it. I just finished the memoir and, 46 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,560 and really enjoyed it. Thank you for telling your story 47 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,400 so so generously and and vulnerably. 48 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,640 Well, I needed to tell it, you know, I, I don't know if I don't 49 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:20,000 think this was even in the preface, but I wrote this for 50 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,720 myself. I truly decided in 2018 that I 51 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,280 needed to get this down on paper because so much had happened, so 52 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,400 much had changed. My identity was completely just 53 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,840 in disarray, and so for me it was about reclaiming parts of 54 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:43,280 myself and a kind of reckoning and a survival strategy. 55 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,200 So all of that was really, really necessary. 56 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,800 Didn't think it would ever be published and put into the 57 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,520 world. Well, I'm so glad that it was. 58 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,280 Obviously, if you're listening to this podcast, you can 59 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,480 probably guess that one of the major themes of Kimberly's book 60 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,200 is a DNA surprise. So before we jump in and start 61 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,280 talking more deeply about the book, I'd love if you could 62 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,920 share with the listeners kind of an overview of of what happened. 63 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,160 What was your DNA surprise? Gosh, yes. 64 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,279 And it is, it's a, it's a long story. 65 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,279 So I'm going to try to abbreviate it here. 66 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,560 As with all of us, we have, you know, there's so many layers to 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,880 these stories. When I was 17, I was told that 68 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,240 my father might not be my father, but it was told in a 69 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:35,200 very casual, pedestrian kind of way on a walk with my mother. 70 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,720 And I was a teenager. I was self absorbed in my own 71 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,320 life. I was very, very close to my 72 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,960 dad. And it really was like presented 73 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,200 to me as a 1% possibility. So I dismissed it, so much so 74 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,280 that I forgot about it, never talked to my dad about it, never 75 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:55,320 talked to friends about it. It was gone, done. 76 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,600 My dad that raised me died six months later, and that only 77 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,200 further buried this conversation, so it was not part 78 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,640 of me. Fast forward when I turned 40 79 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,920 and in this interim, my mom would sometimes bring up that 80 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,680 story, this one night fling with the man in the Mariposa Music 81 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,560 Festival in Canada. And you know, she would talk 82 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,800 about Charlie, but it was just Charlie and this fun little 83 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,400 thing. So there was nothing more to it 84 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,760 except a family joke at that point. 85 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:34,000 However, when I turned 40, I had a very severe bicycle accident. 86 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,160 I had a long period of bed rest and in that same week that the 87 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:43,320 bicycle accident happened, my mother about a month prior 88 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,760 remembered his last name and this again was on a random walk. 89 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,320 We were happened to be in Mexico at that time and never in my 90 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,840 life had she said Charles Browser. 91 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,280 She had only ever said the first name and mentioned a few details 92 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,760 so this was enough for me here. This man keeps coming up. 93 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,920 I better just do a little Google search now. 94 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,520 I put Charles browser. I knew that he had a television 95 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,680 show on public television. I knew that he was a musician. 96 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:15,800 Enough details. Up pops an image that shatters 97 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,040 something inside of me. Even when I looked at it, I saw 98 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:20,640 it. And I was on the plane ride home 99 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,640 from that trip in Mexico and I already was starting to tremble 100 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,320 inside. I pulled the image up without 101 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,960 any context and shared it with my husband when he picked me up 102 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,720 at the airport. And I said, who does that look 103 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,880 like? And he just sort of laughed. 104 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,240 And he said, I don't, I don't know, but it could be your dad. 105 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,240 And that was another piece for me to kind of digest. 106 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,320 Bicycle accident happened. Lots of time in bed rest to 107 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,240 digest even more. Finally my brother gifted me 108 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:53,360 Adna kit and I took the DNA test and found out that he was my 109 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,760 half brother. So of course there's, you know, 110 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,640 a lot more to the story. And of course people are 111 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,040 thinking, well, what about other men? 112 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,040 How did you know you know it was him? 113 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,000 And but I won't reveal all of that right now. 114 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,920 But yes, that was sort of how it began and my life just crumbled 115 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,960 at that point. And I will say, even as I'm 116 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,320 listening to you tell this, I'm like, oh, and then this 117 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,040 happened, you know, thinking more about all of the details 118 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,760 and the, and the circumstances and the way you talk about your, 119 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,920 your dad dying so soon after that. 120 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:33,200 And it, I really just felt like I was there with you and, and 121 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,200 throughout so much of the memoir as well. 122 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,920 So thank you for sharing that. And, and we won't go too deep 123 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,080 into spoilers during this conversation for sure, but I do 124 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,400 have questions about the book, Maybe just starting with, with 125 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:52,480 the title Unfixed. I think that that term, while 126 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,760 it's not anything I think I had used to describe, I think I'd 127 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,440 used Untethered, unmoored. But unfixed also really 128 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,720 resonates. What does that word mean to you? 129 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,640 For me, the original term came from one of the elements that 130 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,720 came from the discovery of this DNA test and the unraveling, 131 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,520 which included the unraveling of my own neurology. 132 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,280 So I ended up developing A neurological disorder that comes 133 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,600 from heightened states of panic. So when I say I unraveled, I I 134 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,480 went into some protracted panic attacks and so much it's 135 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,679 destabilized my nervous system so much so that my brain started 136 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,320 misinterpreting solid ground as liquid. 137 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,600 It's called Malde debarkment syndrome and it's something that 138 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,640 I live with now 24/7. But for the first, I want to say 139 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,440 I always forget, but it was like 6 years before I even had a 140 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,040 diagnosis. I was chasing, chasing, chasing, 141 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:58,000 trying to fix it. I had no room in my entire being 142 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,040 for living with this. This was not something I could 143 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,880 live with and so much so that I felt like I did need to die if 144 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,360 this was going to stay with me. It was so tormenting. 145 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,200 I went from being a tomboy to doing everything and running a 146 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,400 film company and all of that to not being able to walk across 147 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,680 the street without clutching my husband's hand. 148 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:23,560 And so I'm very much isolated. And so the word fixed was was 149 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:29,200 driving the this compulsion. And then became a conversation 150 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,360 that my husband and I had around what would it be like if you 151 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,760 were not fixed? What if you were unfixed? 152 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,760 So it started there and my exploration of a whole community 153 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,960 of humans that live with chronic illness and and mental illness 154 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,440 and things that we cannot control and cannot fix. 155 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,040 But it's become so much more of a philosophy now, which is not 156 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,080 something that is exclusive to the unfixed community of chronic 157 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,120 illness. It's something we all live with. 158 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:01,000 It's it's grief, it's uncertainty, it's inefficiency, 159 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,000 it's not knowing. It's all of the things that we 160 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,320 want to to, you know, with our new age self help books, we want 161 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:15,720 to control and, and I had to by necessity, learn to find another 162 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,720 way of transformation that wasn't through curing. 163 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,680 It was a transformation through surrender. 164 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,440 Oh, that's such a good way of describing it. 165 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,520 We don't have to be fixed. We don't have to be fixed. 166 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,320 I like unfixed. Yeah. 167 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,920 Exactly. We're not broken, we're unfixed. 168 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,160 And even, you know, we think about like our fixed ideas. 169 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,920 And it really it has, it has so many different layers of 170 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,040 meaning. But I love also that it can be 171 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,000 part of the fluidity of how we how we navigate the world with 172 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,920 our belief systems. And I, my own sense of self has 173 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,720 changed through the discovery of this DNA test and, and through 174 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,480 the living with the neurological disorder. 175 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,800 So even my identity is unfixed. Absolutely. 176 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,440 Well, this is actually maybe a good segue for the for the first 177 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,560 excerpt that I'd love for you to read. 178 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:16,080 It's this idea of from the outside, many people probably 179 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,680 and did assume that you had this perfect family and this perfect 180 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:22,680 life. Your father was a doctor, you 181 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:26,440 know, two kids like it's just all looked idyllic. 182 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,480 But you and your family struggled with with many 183 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,800 different things. But you personally write about 184 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,120 struggling with OCD, anxiety and this feeling of discomfort 185 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,880 within your own body. And as I mentioned when we were 186 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,480 talking earlier, it reminded me of of Kerry Washington's book. 187 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,440 And she was a late discovery donor conceived person. 188 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,160 So she had her own DNA surprise in her life and and she also had 189 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,360 these just not feeling comfortable with herself and not 190 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,120 really knowing what was wrong. And and you talked about this, 191 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,000 this mystery illness that you've had. 192 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,360 So, you know, there's also that piece that's that's an 193 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,880 undercurrent throughout. But I was really struck by that 194 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,680 feeling that a lot of us seem to have, that just feeling like 195 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:14,960 something's wrong, not necessarily attributing it 196 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,000 really to anything with our families, but it's almost like 197 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,920 there's something wrong with us. So I would love if you could 198 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,120 read an excerpt from Chapter 7 that really captures that. 199 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,720 I I'm so there with you, Alexis. It's like what Danny Shapiro 200 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,640 calls the unknown known. And our body knows when our mind 201 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,480 doesn't. And so this manifests in unusual 202 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,960 ways. I ground myself with routine, 203 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,960 structure, and predictability. Mom is thoughtful about our 204 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,320 activities, maintaining our calendar even through the more 205 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,440 tumultuous stretches of her marriage. 206 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,920 She may need the predictability as much as I do. 207 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,040 Holiday rituals, Meal rituals. Kim Robertson's calming heart. 208 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,960 Music in the morning rituals. The structure soothes my nervous 209 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,320 system, but the confidence with which it's executed sedates me. 210 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,320 I fall in line. Who am I to question these three 211 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,640 gorgeous, intelligent, successful humans and the way 212 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,000 they move so assuredly through the world? 213 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,720 I don't have the language or the confidence to explore my own own 214 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,280 unmasked, unanswered questions. Ask me if something is wrong and 215 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,560 I feel a guilty feeling like shit when I have so much 216 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:34,360 privilege. B Confused by the disconnect 217 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,240 between how I feel and how I am perceived. 218 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,960 Or C Grumpy and embarrassed when you notice that I feel like shit 219 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,240 and D sad when you don't notice that I feel like shit. 220 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,920 And this is when I take it out on myself, on my skin. 221 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,880 I spend hundreds of hours hidden in the bathroom punishing 222 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,520 myself, excavating anxiety 1 pore at a time. 223 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,600 Blood and sebum surface like proof. 224 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,680 I don't understand the source of my unease, so I create 1 225 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:09,720 instead. The root of my anxiety must be 226 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,760 my skin. Why would I think otherwise? 227 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,840 There is nothing in the outward facing architecture of my life 228 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,960 that explains why I feel like an outsider, so lonely, so deeply 229 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,240 insecure. So I latch onto the one thing I 230 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,560 can see. If only these pimples go away, 231 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,680 then I'll be happy again. Do you think, and it's hard 232 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,880 right to look back because hindsight is 2020, but were you 233 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,280 aware at that time that you felt like you didn't fit in with your 234 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:46,920 family and and that was why you were doing what you were doing? 235 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:52,720 Or is it more upon reflection you go aha that that created 236 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,080 some anxiety just with that lack of belonging? 237 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,920 I think it's, it's hindsight is 2020 for me. 238 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:06,600 I, I definitely knew that I felt anxious, but I'd had, I had no 239 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,280 clue where to put it. And so I just, I, I fixated it 240 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,080 was my skin. I decided that's what made me 241 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,800 feel so anxious. And then when that cleared up, I 242 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,280 turned it into something else and then into something else. 243 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:26,960 So without the context of the paternity issue, I really didn't 244 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,760 have ground to stand on. So I had to fabricate what that 245 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,840 was. And I think also that there is 246 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:39,960 sort of, you know, the inflammatory nature of anxiety 247 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,520 and of not feeling like you belong, that that can 248 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,560 biologically live in our bodies as inflammation. 249 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,960 It's it's like a, a heat to fire. 250 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,680 It's something that can't be released. 251 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,520 And so I in a way, I was trying to surface it. 252 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,440 I was trying to find it and over and over and over again, as you 253 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,560 know, on the book, I was trying to find it, but it just didn't 254 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,640 have anywhere to land because there was no story. 255 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,400 There was no narrative that could hold it. 256 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,120 I love the way that you've described that and what you said 257 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,040 about your anxiety moving from thing to thing to thing. 258 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,720 I have described that so many times in therapy. 259 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,240 Actually. My husband is the one who who 260 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,560 pointed it out to me. It took me that long to realize 261 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,200 that that's what I was doing where he was like, Do you notice 262 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,680 that, You know, it might start out with our kitchen's really 263 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,800 messy and I need to reorganize everything. 264 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,280 And then once that's done, there's some other problem that 265 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,640 needs to be solved. This was before my DNA surprise 266 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:46,880 as well so. I wonder if that's a pattern for 267 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:52,360 a lot of us, because without the narrative to hold that tension 268 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,000 it it needs a place to go. It does. 269 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,000 Again, we're not going to go deep into spoilers, but you do 270 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,920 end up discovering Charlie and learning more about him and and 271 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,680 you're not able to meet him. But one of the things that you 272 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,760 do throughout the book is write these letters. 273 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,760 And I think many people do the practice of, of writing letters 274 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,200 to our, to ourselves, to our mothers, to our fathers to try 275 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,359 to process. But something that I thought was 276 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,720 really interesting is that you wrote to him not from present 277 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,160 day. You wrote to him from the 278 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,320 perspective of your younger self in these various moments. 279 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,760 Can you talk about why you did that and what that did for you 280 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,560 as you processed your DNA? Surprise, Yeah. 281 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,760 That was a really playful, fun way for me to get to know him 282 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,640 and know myself in relationship to him through all the chapters 283 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,560 of my life that didn't get to sit on his lap while he was 284 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,200 playing his guitar or go for walks with him in the woods or 285 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,600 cry in his arm. You know, fantasies. 286 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,400 These are fantasies that I don't know if these would have 287 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,160 happened. So much of what I discovered 288 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,840 when I discovered Charlie eventually was a part of myself 289 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,200 that had been hidden. And not just, you know, like 290 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,160 what my nose looked like, but my creativity. 291 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,000 I dropped out of medical school and pursued film. 292 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,080 And Charlie, I learned, was a poet, A musician, A filmmaker. 293 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,120 He was involved in so many different facets of what I had 294 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:45,720 been restlessly kind of confused by because I came from a very 295 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,720 self help new agey natural medicine and all of that. 296 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:57,640 So my left turn towards all these things that felt so true 297 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,400 to me were also very confusing. So when I finally learned about 298 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,920 Charlie and his family and this whole creative universe that 299 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,720 they embodied, it was like something like little lights 300 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,800 went on in my DNA. It felt like almost as if like, 301 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:20,360 oh, I can finally come to life. And so one of the things I did 302 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:23,880 was I would take his poetry and answer the poems as if we were 303 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,400 doing like a call and response. And then that led into these 304 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,480 writing letters to him. That felt like it was not just 305 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:38,000 communicating with him in my imagination, but also letting 306 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,040 that part of myself that was still very infantile come to 307 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,880 life. Because through that 308 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,320 relationship, through that imaginary conversation, it was 309 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,880 as if I was starting to acknowledge that those other 310 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,640 parts of me existed. So it really kind of was a 311 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,920 little bit like a regenerative process of, of bringing all 312 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,960 those hidden parts of myself to the surface. 313 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,960 Oh, I love that. Something we've talked about and 314 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,640 I've hosted retreats and we've had sessions on parts work and I 315 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,360 think that is such an interesting exercise to just 316 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:19,680 think about putting yourself in that place and writing. 317 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,160 Thank you for talking about it because I thought that that was 318 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,720 like an interesting sort of writing exercise that maybe the 319 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,600 listeners would want to try or I may try that I. 320 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,160 Highly encourage it. And I even, I mean, I see photos 321 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,560 of my biological father when he was young. 322 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,880 We're identical, we're identical. 323 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,160 And I can see my little bratty, snotty face and his bratty, 324 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,320 snotty like, you know, like, and it's like, Oh, I want to have a 325 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,840 conversation from that little girl who was trying to 326 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,640 understand the world and talk like, how did he navigate that? 327 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,640 And it just it's very satisfying because I really do believe our 328 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,120 ancestors live in us. They die, but they they live in 329 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,160 us in so many different ways. And so we have these 330 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,720 opportunities to kind of bring bring them to life. 331 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,720 Again, Yeah, absolutely. Now, you, you talked about 332 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,640 finding out about Charlie, maybe not all the details, but just 333 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,720 the the idea that he he was a possibility when you were 17 and 334 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,480 in 1992. And that was before consumer DNA 335 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,840 tests and the Internet were prominent. 336 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,760 How do you think that this impacted your story? 337 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,400 Something I'm really fascinated by when I talk to other people 338 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,360 who've had DNA surprises is this waiting game and how long it 339 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,320 takes for these stories to play out. 340 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,120 Well, I remember somewhere around like when I had my first 341 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:51,000 computer or, and you know, Google was still something that 342 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000 was not used a lot, but I was like, oh, I'm able to use this 343 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,320 search engine. And I, I remember putting that 344 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:02,160 name in again, Charlie. And there was, like I said, 345 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,640 there was no last name, but I knew a little bit about like 346 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,240 this TV show and whatever, and it just always would, it brought 347 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,000 up this German musician from like 1922 or something. 348 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,840 But it did feel sometimes like I was in this divination process 349 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,200 with the computer, Like something in me kept me coming 350 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,560 back, but there was nothing, nothing ever emerged. 351 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,560 So it was just dead. I still have a lot of anxiety 352 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,280 and I was still demonstrating a lot of behaviors that were 353 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,040 manifestations of this anxiety and I had a lot of health 354 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,680 problems. When I was 21, I developed 355 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,760 Graves' disease, which is an autoimmune thyroid disorder. 356 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:49,080 And and I even remember reading somewhere that that type of 357 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,840 disorder with the thyroid is a manifestation of grief. 358 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,400 Whether or not that's true, this was just a few years after my 359 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,680 dad had died. So I spent 2 decades of my adult 360 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:12,200 life very much floundering and, and dabbling and clinging to 361 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,200 doctors, really chasing a fix of for, you know, my thyroid and 362 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,240 then my gut and then what? It was always something. 363 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,440 So I felt like I was, I don't want to say I wasted my life 364 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,720 because all of this led to this incredible story that I live now 365 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,160 that I feel so have so much agency and empowerment and but 366 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,400 there but I was lost. I felt very, very, very lost for 367 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,560 those 20 years. Pursuit of my career kept 368 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,440 changing. My relationships with my mother 369 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,320 and my brother were, you know, all over the place. 370 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,040 My relationships with men were all over the place. 371 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,720 I look back and I feel sad for that girl. 372 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,680 You know, I really wish I could have held her and told her that 373 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,680 the feelings that she was having inside were true and that 374 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,080 they're, they had a place and they had a narrative that they 375 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,960 could land in and, and that she didn't need to blame herself for 376 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:20,000 feeling so, so strange. I just felt so lost and so 377 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,520 strange in this world, like I didn't belong. 378 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,360 And I, I really wish I could go back and tell her that she did 379 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:29,480 belong and that soon she would know. 380 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,840 She would know. Yeah, yeah. 381 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,600 Maybe you weren't even aware of how patient you were being 382 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,840 because you didn't know what what was in front of you. 383 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:44,640 But it's just an incredibly long time to wait, you know, to get 384 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,320 those answers. Yeah, and it's hard on our 385 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,280 bodies. I mean, I keep coming back to 386 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,600 our body, but I really do think these truths live in our bodies. 387 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,200 And I would maybe there's been a pull, but I would guess that a 388 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,640 lot of us that live through these stories, especially with 389 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,800 that long duration, we end up with some kind of chronic 390 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:08,760 disorder where there's that schism between what we the known 391 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,000 and the unknown. And the manifestation of that 392 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,280 unknown just keeps kind of come to the surface and it. 393 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,040 Yeah. Something else that you 394 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,440 mentioned. I, I, I'd say it's a theme is 395 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,040 magical thinking. Oh yeah. 396 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,160 Which I love, but I think sometimes people can be 397 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,800 dismissive, right? Of, of that concept of, of 398 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,320 finding meaning in things. And I noticed, you know, it gave 399 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,760 you such a strong sense of connection and feeling tethered 400 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:49,280 to your dad, to Charlie. Can you talk more about the role 401 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,440 of magical thinking and what that played in your journey and 402 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,000 why it was important to call those moments out in the memoir? 403 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,960 Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, it's interesting. 404 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,880 We just, I had a book club discussion the other night and 405 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,560 someone asked me, you know, my mom said, isn't it wonderful 406 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,320 that you belong to the mystery? That was the the tagline when 407 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,760 she said you might have a different father when I was 17. 408 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,800 And even though I question, you know, whether she thinks I said 409 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,800 it and I think she said it, and who knows what the truth was, 410 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:26,680 but I can still acknowledge that their mystery was a big part of 411 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,000 this whole story. And whether I like it or not, 412 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,120 whether the teenage teenager self would likes it or not, in a 413 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,920 large way, I do belong to the mystery because this whole 414 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,960 mystery has been unfolding in so many mysterious ways. 415 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,840 That includes the magical thinking that has both sides. 416 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,080 There's a light side to it and there's a shadow side to it. 417 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,720 The light side is that it did. I'm a Pisces, so it helps me 418 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,280 sort of navigate this, this world in the next. 419 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,680 And for me, when I was not willing to be in relationship to 420 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:09,280 myself as I was, I needed to believe in these conversations I 421 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,520 was having with my dad after he died. 422 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:17,800 And that if I just have, you know, the universe promise me 423 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,920 these things or, or deliver these human beings into my path 424 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,240 and then follow them. If I didn't believe that those 425 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,560 were some sort of larger order or larger connection to or 426 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,800 wisdom, then I, I think I would have felt really, really, really 427 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,040 untethered. And I was already untethered. 428 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,280 So it kind of gave me a little bit of a North Star that said 429 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,200 the dark side of it is that it prevented me from being in 430 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,560 relationship to myself as I was magical thinking by its very 431 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,440 nature. And the same with fixing even is 432 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,080 that it's it's something out there, it's something in the 433 00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:00,760 future. It's something that tells us 434 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,360 that maybe something's better over here than meeting ourselves 435 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:07,480 where we are. And that has was, like I said in 436 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,720 the beginning, the surrendering to what is was where my greatest 437 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,200 transformation was. It wasn't through the magical 438 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,760 thinking and believing that I could have all of these things 439 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,160 that I wanted in the future. Yeah. 440 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,160 I think when we're sort of powerless over how our stories 441 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,240 unfold, it gives you that sense of, well, I'm going to make 442 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,280 meaning of this, and it gives you that ownership and power. 443 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,440 Yeah. And it it helps us find the love 444 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,200 in in chaos. And there are so many, I've 445 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,360 heard that so many times, Alexis, where someone will end 446 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,120 up connecting with another person or connecting with the 447 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,280 place and then it turns out they were related or that had a 448 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,520 connection to that person that was part of our DNAI even it's, 449 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,680 you know, my husband's name is David. 450 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,480 My that was my father that raised me. 451 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,720 Of course I knew that his middle name is Charles, that you can't 452 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,600 make that stuff up. No, you can't. 453 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,000 You can't start reading. And when I knew that I had 454 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,920 another dad. Right, right, exactly so there. 455 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,520 Is does make me think that there there are unseen forces, I and 456 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,920 it and I don't want to claim to know the truth. 457 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,120 I don't want to claim to say just because I can't see it 458 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,880 doesn't mean it's there. This part of our stories is 459 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,200 quite mysterious and magical. And I do have to think that 460 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,480 there is a lot more at play than we can see. 461 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,400 And that gives me, that gives me, if nothing else, it gives me 462 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,040 a sense of agency and beauty within the chaos. 463 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,240 Absolutely well put. You touched on it right. 464 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,520 Your mom introduced some of the the mystery and isn't isn't that 465 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,600 what was the line it's. Oh, your father might not be 466 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,640 your father, but isn't it more interesting that you belong to 467 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,280 the? Mystery belonging to the 468 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,120 mystery, yes, so clearly your mother. 469 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:22,160 I think it just is such an interesting character, for lack 470 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,640 of a better word, in the memoir. And obviously, like, in addition 471 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,720 to the role that our raised fathers and our biological 472 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,960 fathers play in DNA surprises, our our relationships with our 473 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,560 mothers are huge piece of this. And I was really struck by the 474 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,680 passage you wrote about a pivotal moment in your story 475 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,320 when you're staying with your mother. 476 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,160 Can you read that excerpt from Chapter 34? 477 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,640 I would love to, and this is important for me too, because I 478 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,640 was also just speaking with someone that read the book and 479 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,160 they said one of the themes that I found is that you were always 480 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,400 looking for the love. And it, it's funny because I 481 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,520 don't think I consciously set out to write this book saying I 482 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,400 want to look for the love in all these situations. 483 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,200 But I'm so glad that that came through because this could have 484 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,320 been a story about blame and judgement and resentment and 485 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,160 abandonment and all of those things. 486 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,280 And for me, I knew in the writing, because I was writing 487 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,680 it for myself, I, I, I was looking for healing. 488 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,680 And the healing was going to happen through acknowledging 489 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,240 that we're all human and, and, and finding the love in all of 490 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:40,520 their foibles and all of their, you know, all their whole life. 491 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,640 We all have stuff that we're going to be messing up and 492 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,680 messing with other people's lives through those messes I 493 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,080 never planned for them to happen, erupting without 494 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,720 warning. My adult self can't rationalize 495 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,000 away the child's fury. You were supposed to protect me, 496 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,160 she screams. Not back in the movie theater, 497 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,280 but 40 years ago when I first shaped the word Dad. 498 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,880 I asked her to tell the Charlie story over and over again, 499 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,000 trying to understand her choice to stay in the dark. 500 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,680 I explode again. We hug, I explode again, we cry, 501 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,320 I explode again, we talk through it. 502 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,840 This thawing business is a slushy mess. 503 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,240 Mom's shadow gobbler is fat and her brain's emotional dial is 504 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,080 getting a workout. And then I hear it, Soft but 505 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,880 differentiating. Consonants free are tangled 506 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:44,040 branches, tiny shoots pushed down, down, down from my feet. 507 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,800 Her beautiful glassy eyes are inches from mine, vulnerable but 508 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,160 certain. I'm so sorry, Kim. 509 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,600 I'm so sorry I didn't protect you and that I didn't pursue the 510 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,760 truth. I was so focused on keeping 511 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,840 everything together, I was afraid to find out the truth and 512 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:09,520 risk everything falling apart. I hear, sorry, I hear, pursue 513 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,640 truth, but it's the everyday you, Incarnate and valid that 514 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,840 fortifies and repairs. The snow globe shatters. 515 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,120 I no longer identify as an accessory to her story. 516 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,280 I am not the neat epilogue to her choices. 517 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,960 I'm an individual with my own needs, my own desires, my own 518 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,160 failures. Someone who was protected from 519 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,680 the truth, not protected by the truth. 520 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,600 Someone who didn't get to decide her own story because it was 521 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,600 edited and tidied up before she was even born. 522 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,440 And now I get to We hold each other. 523 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,320 I feel no blame, only deep, undying love for the woman now 524 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,360 and also the woman then who did her very best to protect me from 525 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,560 hurt, only to discover 40 years later that the truth can hurt, 526 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,480 but it also can heal. It does hurt. 527 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,199 It does heal. I just love this excerpt. 528 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:18,679 It so beautifully captures, I think, the, the empathy that a 529 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:20,400 lot of people have for their moms. 530 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,639 I think, like you said, there can be this, this anger, this 531 00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:27,320 blame and, and, and sometimes I think it depends right on the, 532 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,440 on the mother's reaction in these situations. 533 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,360 But personally, this really resonated with me. 534 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,760 A lot of people struggle with their moms. 535 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,840 How did you get to this point of just deep undying love and 536 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:45,880 releasing of the blame and anger? 537 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,920 A lot of it I, I attribute to her. 538 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:55,360 My husband and I both watched her at her young, you know, 539 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,200 she's 81 years old now. So this was 7081 years. 540 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,200 I say young, but old. She could have very much frozen 541 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,880 her reaction, which at the beginning was, who are you going 542 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,600 to tell and why do you need to share this? 543 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,160 She never dismissed why it was affecting me so much like some 544 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,280 friends did, but she definitely was a little concerned about how 545 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:23,280 much I was going to share it. And we watched her over 11 years 546 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,160 very much transform her relationship to this story to 547 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,600 the point where she could look in my eyes and just with undying 548 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,560 pride and love and say, I am so proud of you. 549 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,960 I'm just so proud of you. And also, I think part of it 550 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,000 maybe came when I wrote the story because she could she read 551 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,520 the manuscript before I ever, you know, like I said, it wasn't 552 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:50,880 planning. I wasn't planning on sharing it 553 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,480 with a role that sat on a hard drive for three years before I 554 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,760 shared it with anybody. And then I pulled it out and 555 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,640 shared that manuscript with my mom. 556 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,440 And I think she felt represented well. 557 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,160 I think she felt my love in the story and that I wasn't trying 558 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,320 to blame. So I, you know, had I not 559 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,400 written the story, she might not have known how much reverence 560 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,360 and respect I was holding for her in this process, which might 561 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,120 just be, you know, a form of really good communication. 562 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,640 I don't think I probably could have communicated all that's in 563 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,320 this book with her over a dinner. 564 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,680 So I think she felt very respected and held. 565 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:39,200 And for me, the neurological disorder that I'm like I 566 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,400 mentioned earlier, we got so bad that I ended up moving in with 567 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,800 her. I, I flew to Colorado and I, I 568 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,040 just didn't plan on staying there for seven months. 569 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,400 I was just pursuing other healers there, but I ended up 570 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,560 staying for seven months. And I think her seeing me really 571 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:02,360 fall apart and in a very, very desperate, desperate place, the 572 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:08,320 mother in her rose up and wanted to protect and saw that the mess 573 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,280 was what we both needed to hold instead of the neat tidy story 574 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,040 with putting a bow on it. We both got to hold the mess 575 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,040 together. We both wanted to fix it. 576 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,800 And I was pursuing all kinds of healers there, but nothing 577 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,840 worked. And so we were alkalizing the 578 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,440 pain together. I remember so many times I would 579 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,680 just put my head in her lap and she would hold her hands on my 580 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,480 head and we would cry and we would cry and we would cry. 581 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,760 So there was, it was a 7 month journey that I think was part of 582 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,440 the alchemizing of the love that was emerging from this. 583 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,600 That's beautiful. That's that's incredible. 584 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,280 And unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people get that 585 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,040 opportunity right. So it's, it was so wonderful to 586 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,240 read that somebody got to have that experience and and the 587 00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:00,800 power that that had. You've touched on some of these 588 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,240 things, right? Your condition, the various 589 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:05,840 health challenges that you've had. 590 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:11,040 You've experienced a lot of interesting life, good, good and 591 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,560 bad, you might say, right? Different careers, 592 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,440 relationships, growing up, your parents, their marriage. 593 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:24,680 And yet this memoir really is anchored on your DNA surprise 594 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,240 and this revelation. And I'd love for you to talk 595 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:34,320 about why that is. Maybe because to the point that 596 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,280 you mentioned where maybe some of your friends didn't 597 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,000 understand why it was such a, a big moment in your life, a big 598 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,600 event in your life. I think it would be interesting 599 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,120 to hear you explain why, even though you've had this very full 600 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,080 life, this really was the anchor in your. 601 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,280 Yeah, I love how you say that this is the anchor to the story. 602 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,200 You're so right. And I can say very simply it's 603 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:07,400 because I finally came home to myself when I knew I it. 604 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,680 It's it's as if the inner and the outer finally merged. 605 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:20,280 All of the feelings, all the anxiousness, the sicknesses, 606 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,920 let's call that the underworld. And then all the presentations 607 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,200 of who I thought I was to be. The career, the identity, the 608 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,920 relationships there, it's like they never could come home to 609 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,360 one another. And finding out who my dad was, 610 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,960 thus finding out who I was. It's like the two, if you could 611 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,480 visualize, it's like the, the underworld and the outer world 612 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,080 just collided and they, they joined for the first time. 613 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,800 And I have felt nothing but grace since then and grace 614 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,360 within the, the adversity and this, this strange neurological 615 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,640 stuff. I, I'm dizzy right now, but 616 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:06,560 it's, I feel solid and calm in a way that I have never, ever 617 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,000 experienced. I feel stillness even within all 618 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,880 of the movement. That's as if something just 619 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:18,280 finally the schism was healed. And that's why the tagline even 620 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,640 in my book, The currents that Carry You Home. 621 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,720 Yeah. We, you know, I do think that 622 00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:31,000 there are so many ways that these stories heal us and they 623 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,680 must not have the outcome that we want. 624 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,920 I'm no, I'm very, very fortunate with the way that my outcome was 625 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,120 and the sense of the family. And even though there's tragedy 626 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,360 within that, but I think just the very nature of coming home 627 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:50,280 to who we are is, is very powerful, especially when it's 628 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:56,440 lived in us, but it's unknown. It's felt in us, but it doesn't 629 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,640 have a place to land. The book is now out in the 630 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,680 world. Congratulations. 631 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:08,600 But obviously, as the title says, your feelings, your life, 632 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,440 it's unfixed. So how would you say that you're 633 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,880 doing today with your DNA surprise? 634 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,800 Oh, I feel so much gratitude. I feel like it continues to 635 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,320 actually, the mystery of it continues, which is part in due 636 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,200 to the relationships that have developed from this with the 637 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,280 family. A lot of it to do with this book 638 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,920 out in the world and the conversations that are coming 639 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,520 from that. I didn't know how many people 640 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,240 needed to hear that it's OK to be unfixed. 641 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,360 I thought it was the message that I really needed and it 642 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:49,280 started to resonate with me. But I think the world is ready 643 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,960 to let their sales down and just meet life as it is. 644 00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:01,000 We've been fed so much messaging around how to improve and self 645 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,680 actualize and all of the growth is, I'm not dismissing that, but 646 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,320 I think it's just been very out of balance with the meeting life 647 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,800 as it is. So I feel very dizzy. 648 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,840 I had a horrible migraine yesterday and I am happier than 649 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,160 I've ever been. And I'm also very much just kind 650 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,760 of like going for the ride I never planned for like I this 651 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,760 book was not supposed to be shared with the world and it's 652 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,240 happening. And so I'm like, well, what's 653 00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:33,520 next? I'm surrendered to kind of 654 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,280 experiencing what lands in my lap and unfolding and engaging 655 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,760 with that. And I really don't know where 656 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,760 it's going to take me because this, this book was not my in my 657 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:51,400 design, not on my bucket list. If you don't mind, I have two 658 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,800 more questions for you. The first question is, is simply 659 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,760 what advice do you have for parents who may be keeping adna 660 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,280 surprise from their child? Oh my goodness. 661 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:10,920 I know it's painful and I know it's scary that this could blow 662 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,920 everything up, but your child deserves to know. 663 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:21,480 Your child deserves to know and, and it's not necessarily that 664 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,160 it's going to be a big deal for them. 665 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,760 You let them have their own reaction. 666 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,640 It might not be anything, it might be life changing, but I 667 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:39,240 think that there is more to, I want to acknowledge the value of 668 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:43,440 our intelligence of our bodies. And I think when our bodies 669 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,280 sense that something's not quite right, it manifests in other 670 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,280 ways. And so even if it's just for the 671 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,560 the health of that individual, their physical, emotional, 672 00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:00,120 mental health, they need to know because that will be some kind 673 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:01,960 of coming home and healing for them. 674 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,960 And what? Advice do you have for someone 675 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,400 who just uncovered adna surprise? 676 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:17,080 Go slow. This is this is my advice in 677 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:22,600 reaction to how I did not do it. I take it slowly. 678 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,120 Digest. Don't be too eager to share with 679 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,960 the world right away. Maybe find one person you can 680 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,760 confide in. But let the pace. 681 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,120 I'm coming back to the body again. 682 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,160 Let the pace of your body guide you. 683 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,680 I became so manic and panicked with the information that I 684 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,680 started telling the story to everyone and anyone and it only 685 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,480 exaggerated the panic in me. And, and it was as if I was 686 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,360 trying, I was trying to find a place for it to land, but where 687 00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,120 it should have been landing was in my body. 688 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:05,400 And that that pace was a lot slower than the pace of where my 689 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,960 mind needed it to go to resolve. Because that's what I was trying 690 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,840 to do when I was telling the story to everybody on the bus 691 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,160 and in the plane. And it's like I was trying to 692 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:18,320 land it somewhere. So I would say take it, take it 693 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,280 slow, do lots of writing for with yourself and ask. 694 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,200 Ask how it wants to be shared, if it even wants to be shared, 695 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:32,200 and let that be your guide. Great advice, Kimberly, thank 696 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,800 you so much for joining me today. 697 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,400 If people want to pick up Unfixed, where can they find? 698 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:47,080 It everywhere you can find it, you can go on Barnes and Noble 699 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,800 online, Amazon Bookshop, some of the indie stores around the 700 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,880 country are starting to stock it. 701 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,480 It's going to depend on, you know, our current political 702 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,120 climate and all of that, but you can definitely find it online. 703 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,520 Amazing. Thank you again. 704 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,600 I really appreciated this conversation. 705 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,080 Oh, Alexis, this is just incredible. 706 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:08,840 What a. What an. 707 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,320 Honor, thanks again to Kimberly Warner for joining me. 708 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,320 If you'd like to pick up a copy of Unfixed, I've linked it in 709 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,480 the show notes. And if you have adna surprise 710 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,400 that you'd like to share, please submit your story at 711 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:27,080 dnasurprises.com. For early ad free access to 712 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:32,520 episodes, join me over on patreon@patreon.com/DNA 713 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,200 Surprises. Until next time, DNA Surprises 714 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:42,040 is hosted, produced and edited by me, Alexis Oursalt. 715 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,880 It is mixed and mastered by Josh Oursalt of Siren Recording 716 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:47,640 Studios.