1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,280 I fantasized this one scenario where my mom tells me, like 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,120 maybe when I'm a teenager, you know, that my father's somebody 3 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:11,640 else. And the whole time we're living 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,440 within just like 10 miles of each other. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,240 They, they started out in Los Angeles, the city of Los 6 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,600 Angeles, and then Long Beach. And Long Beach is so close to 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,920 Gardena, but it's also really close to Westminster, where I 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,240 went to high school. And so I imagine that I find out 9 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:29,840 and then I introduce myself and, you know, it's a shock, of 10 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,800 course. And then I meet his wife and 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,000 another stepmother. So of course they're going to 12 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,320 argue and whatever, but they get over it, you know, because they 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,000 find me so charming or whatever. And the the next thing I know, I 14 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,480 now have six siblings instead of just two, and with very similar 15 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:51,160 interests. Welcome to DNA Surprises, a 16 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:55,320 podcast that explores the life altering world of unexpected DNA 17 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,440 discoveries. I'm your host, Alexis Ourselt. 18 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:04,280 This show centers the stories of people who've experienced NP, ES 19 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,920 or non paternal events. In other words, people who've 20 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,360 learned that their biological father isn't who they thought he 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,000 was. We'll also hear from adoptees, 22 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:20,280 donor conceived people, and the families navigating these 23 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,520 discoveries. Get ready to follow the 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,480 incredible journeys that begin with a simple DNA. 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:33,880 Test this is DNA surprises. One of the things I've learned 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,600 from hosting DNA Surprises is that these discoveries don't 27 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:44,600 lose their impact with age. Whether someone is 2545 or 70, 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,280 learning that the man who raised you is not your biological 29 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,760 father can shift your understanding of your identity 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,920 in an instant. In this week's episode, Randy 31 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,520 shares how Adna Test, organized by his half sister, uncovered 32 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,080 that truth. With both of his parents already 33 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,600 gone, he began the long process of piercing together the 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,600 identity of his biological father. 35 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,960 Following DNA matches, working with relatives, and navigating a 36 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,720 trail of clues that stretched across years. 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,000 Randy reflects on the twists and turns of his search and how the 38 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,680 age we are when we make these discoveries can impact what 39 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,200 happens after the truth is revealed. 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,080 Thank you for sharing your story, Randy. 41 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:38,600 My name is Randy, I just turned to 70 a few months ago. 42 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,760 I'm from Gardena, CA. I was born and raised there and 43 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,520 my mother Maxlin grew up in the hollers in the mountains of 44 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,120 Eastern Kentucky and I now only live a few hours from there near 45 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,560 Louisville. Soon after high school, she 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,120 moved up to Detroit, MI to help out her younger sister who was 47 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:08,800 in a an abusive relationship. So that was my Aunt Margie. 48 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:15,200 She had four children by then, and then my mom met Charles, my 49 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,600 dad, who lived just outside of Detroit, by the following year. 50 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:25,800 My mom gave birth to my older sister Cynthia in 1947 and then 51 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,520 my brother Rodger in 1949. And then about a year after 52 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,160 that, they decided to move to California, which is how I ended 53 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,320 up being born in Gardena, which is one of those many communities 54 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,560 within Los Angeles County. There's a large gap between my 55 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,680 birth and that of Rogers. Seven years, to be precise. 56 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,200 Three years after my birth, they got divorced. 57 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,120 So anyway, that was the basic story, which we always knew of. 58 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,960 But then in the 1990s, at some point, my sister was talking to 59 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:04,240 my dad and he mentioned that actually mom and he didn't 60 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,520 actually, they never actually got around to getting married 61 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,640 until after I was born. And so they were together for 62 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,640 almost 9 years, maybe 10 years before they decide to get 63 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,720 married, which makes the divorce even harder to understand. 64 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,800 But it kind of helped me a little bit. 65 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:24,800 I mean, that kind of made me feel a little better because I'd 66 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,840 always, I thought growing up, I wonder if I was the cause of the 67 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:31,800 divorce. But now I see that maybe I was 68 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,360 the cause of them getting married. 69 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:35,320 I don't know but. Yeah. 70 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,440 And that seemed like, you know, fairly uncommon for them too. 71 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,200 So that's really interesting. When Cynthia heard this from 72 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,400 dad, then she asked dad about it and she just said, well, they 73 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,320 were living in a common law marriage and, you know, that was 74 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,840 legal in California. So, you know, that's the end of 75 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:52,400 that story. And the mom was always kind of 76 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,280 kind of like that. They were very cut and dried 77 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:57,680 explanations without going into much detail. 78 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,280 So then dad a couple of years later he meets Janie. 79 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,720 They got married in 1960. They had two children, 2 girls, 80 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,080 Nancy and Sandy. And Nancy is very much part of 81 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,200 this story because she was the one who dove deep into a 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,720 genealogy and asked all the siblings for DNA test and a 83 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,360 cousin John. So we did that. 84 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,160 And I was, you know, excited about that. 85 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:27,000 And like I've noticed many others who you've talked with, 86 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,360 one reason they want to get ADNA test is just to find out what 87 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,600 their ethnicity is and to see if there are Native American 88 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,800 ancestors, which I always find interesting that people are, are 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,920 always wondering about that. But I was, I was one of those. 90 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,200 And so we get the DNA test. So it's like, you know, six 91 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,840 weeks. And by this time, this is in 92 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:58,880 2014, in 93, I moved with my wife and her two boys from 93 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:04,320 Southern California to Perry County, Kentucky, which was the 94 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,400 exact place, the same county where my mom had grown up. 95 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,400 So I had lots of kinfolk, have lots of kinfolk all over the 96 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,760 place to take a job teaching English at the Community 97 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,400 College. So then I take the DNA test in 98 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,400 2014 and I'm waiting for the results. 99 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:31,680 And Nancy writes me a letter, an e-mail to let me know that the 100 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,880 results are in. And I was excited. 101 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,640 You know, I see that. Oh, there's this e-mail. 102 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,520 So I open it up. She says, hi, Randy, your DNA 103 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,520 results posted this morning. And I'm not sure if you've taken 104 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,320 a look or not, but there was something unexpected. 105 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,120 I can't really find a good way to say it. 106 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,840 Your results didn't matter, Sandy, John and me on any level 107 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:55,200 of genetic relation. Again, Sandy is her older sister 108 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,360 and John is a cousin and the conclusion is that Dad wasn't 109 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:03,240 your biological father. I'm like really confused now and 110 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:09,520 the adrenaline is running and I decide I need to calm my nerves. 111 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,920 So I go downstairs and I empty out the dishwasher to give me a 112 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:16,960 break, you know, to try to calm down. 113 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,840 So I do that. I come back up and there's only 114 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,680 one paragraph of the e-mail left and Nancy continues. 115 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,480 It hurts to me that you had to find out this way because in my 116 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,000 heart, this changes nothing. You are my brother, period. 117 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,360 You were Dad's son until the day he died. 118 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,240 Dad and your mom had an unconventional relationship in 119 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,520 many ways, but they both love you. 120 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,160 Roger and Cindy, I don't have a clue as to who knows or knew 121 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,720 anything, but if or when the time is right for you, I'll 122 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,120 certainly help piece it together. 123 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:54,360 Love you, Nancy. So this is just as so many other 124 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,880 people as I've heard on your podcast said, it's just doesn't 125 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,240 make sense. It's I'm baffled. 126 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,800 Dad is not my dad that my name shouldn't be the last name. 127 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,440 Did you accept the information or did you have any denial? 128 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,840 Like, that's a lot of information to take in, no? 129 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,720 No, I didn't have any. I was just, you know, well, she 130 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,360 opens, you know, in that first paragraph with with this 131 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,200 unexpected news. So I that's why I was starting 132 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:23,440 to get nervous. I had no idea. 133 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,440 I mean, it was just totally flabbergasting. 134 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,680 So I call my wife in Jackie and have her read the e-mail. 135 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,480 First thing she says is you think it's a mistake. 136 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,799 Oh, and then it hadn't even occurred to me. 137 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,080 It's like, oh, of course, yeah, that's probably what it is. 138 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,520 Yeah, right. That's kind of the first thing a 139 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,560 lot of people go to. Obviously it was a mix up, some 140 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:47,080 sort of mistake. Yeah. 141 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,080 Right, right. But then I think, well, what if 142 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,320 the tests were correct, however, you know, 'cause And then I 143 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,040 immediately think of all the ramifications. 144 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,640 If that's the case, then it means Roger and Cynthia are my 145 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,720 half siblings saying to Nancy are not related to me at all. 146 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,520 So they were they're like what? close family friends, I guess. 147 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,560 But that's no doubt why Nancy tried to reassure me, you know, 148 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:14,720 that I would always be her brother, which, you know, I 149 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,880 found very, very moving. But now this is 2014. 150 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,240 My my dad had passed away in 1999. 151 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:28,800 Mom had passed away in 2011. So I can't consult them, you 152 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,240 know, And that's one of the disadvantages of being as old as 153 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,600 I was at the time, like close to 60. 154 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,400 And now I'm 70 and I realize, OK, a whole entire half of my 155 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,240 family tree has just been lopped off. 156 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,120 So I've only got half a tree now. 157 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,000 So we begin the search for for a father. 158 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:52,200 And this is thanks to Nancy and her familiarity with using 159 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,640 Ancestry, dancestry.com and the family tree. 160 00:09:57,560 --> 00:10:02,000 She got really familiar with the science and the mathematics of 161 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,800 it. So I asked her how, how do you 162 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,680 know that this information? How did you figure this out? 163 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,560 She included a little matrix of just the six people who were 164 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:17,200 tested, you know, with the six names going across the top six 165 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,680 names going down, you know, in a column and showing how much DNA 166 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:24,920 we all share. And she also introduced me to 167 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,320 relationship charts, right, DNA relationship charts and how they 168 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,960 they overlap somewhat as you move from one amount, a range of 169 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,040 numbers to another. So it's, you know, Randy, 170 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,200 Rodger, Cynthia, Sandy, Nancy and John and where Rodger and 171 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,440 Cynthia are. And then you you follow their 172 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,880 row across to my name intersecting. 173 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,360 It shows the amount of DNA that you would expect from 1/2 174 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,080 sibling. And then if you do the same with 175 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:02,520 Sandy and Nancy, Nancy and Sandy share, of course, and they share 176 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,160 with Rodger and Cynthia the amount of DNA you would expect 177 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:12,080 from half siblings. But when you compare me to Sandy 178 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,040 and Nancy, it's just zero. There's nothing there. 179 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,320 John, the cousin, he shares amount that you would expect 180 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:26,200 from first cousins, and so he shares numbers with Rodger and 181 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,720 Cynthia and Sandy and Nancy and 0 for me. 182 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:35,160 So the only logical conclusion is that I'm not the son of my 183 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,000 father. Nancy then comes up with a plan 184 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,320 and she gives me a job to do. And this job is to contact 185 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,480 anybody, anyone I can think of who might have been around at 186 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,880 the time of my birth to see what they know. 187 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,320 Of course, they're going to be older than me. 188 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,560 And then she's got the job of looking really closely, going 189 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,280 deep with all the cousin matches, right, Because she was 190 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,320 the manager of my my test and had access to all that 191 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,560 information. So she starts looking for the 192 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:10,840 paternal cousins and seeing if we can find the family, the 193 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:16,600 clan, the tree that I belong to. So I replied to Nancy in an 194 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,200 e-mail by asking her, well, why don't you ask your mom, see if 195 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,680 she knows anything? Well, she, she did it 196 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:24,520 immediately. I think before the day was over, 197 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,960 she got back to me and asked her mom if her mom knew anything. 198 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,320 And her mom, Janie, said, I'm sorry he had to find out this 199 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,760 way. That was a shock there. 200 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,880 So. OK, so, so people were 201 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,880 suspicious. And there are all these emotions 202 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,200 all at all at once. You know, I'm, I'm getting 203 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,320 angry. There's a kind of a sense of 204 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,120 betrayal, like people are hiding this from you. 205 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,480 Such an important, important thing. 206 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,560 The next person I ask, even though my sister and brother are 207 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,440 7-8 years older than me, you might have thought I would ask 208 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,520 them next, but instead, for some reason I still can't figure it 209 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,240 out. I decided to ask my first cousin 210 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,960 Linda, who is my maternal cousin. 211 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,240 She is the the daughter of Margie who I mentioned earlier. 212 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,360 I called her up and I said well oh hi Linda, how you doing? 213 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,040 So I took Adna test and before I could say anything more she goes 214 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,600 Oh my God. When Margie, my aunt Margie 215 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,120 moved with her girls and their oldest was a boy John, they 216 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,960 needed a place to stay. So they actually moved in for a 217 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,720 little while, less than a year, but they moved in with my and 218 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:39,040 again, this is before I was born with my mom and dad and Roger 219 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,400 and Cynthia in a modest 2 bedroom house. 220 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,760 My Aunt Margie told years later, you know, would tell Linda some 221 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,080 things about what life was like in our household. 222 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,000 And they both my mom and dad both had kind of fiery tempers. 223 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:58,560 So Linda recalls her mother telling her that Marge was in 224 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:03,120 the other room and she heard my dad and and mom arguing when my 225 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,720 mom was pregnant. And my mom blurts out, he's not 226 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,840 even yours. So it's really, you know, 227 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,680 turning into a soap opera. My dad was kind of, he had a 228 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:17,320 short temper, but, you know, he was out of the house by the time 229 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,000 I was 3. And then they did the every 230 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,720 other weekend, you know, visitation with the father, that 231 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,040 kind of a settlement. She didn't she didn't get any 232 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,280 alimony. She didn't want any. 233 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,680 She just got child support. Linda told me that as they 234 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:37,520 watched me growing up, they were suspicious just from because I 235 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,000 looked so different and acted so different from my dad. 236 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,240 Cynthia and Roger were clearly the children of dad, but but I 237 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,720 just seemed like I was from another family. 238 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,160 It was actually John, the oldest, who asked Linda, have 239 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,360 you ever noticed that Randy just doesn't seem to to be anything 240 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,000 like, you know, Charlie? And she goes, Oh yeah, that's 241 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,680 right. And then as I got older, it just 242 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,520 that just became more and more apparent. 243 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,280 Besides the negative feelings, I had the sense of betrayal, There 244 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:14,080 was also kind of an excitement because it was like, hopefully 245 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,880 maybe my father is a really good guy. 246 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,880 Not that my dad wasn't a good guy, but but, but maybe, you 247 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,200 know, I, I was now all of a sudden my life had become 248 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,320 interesting, more interesting than I could have ever imagined. 249 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,280 I was on a quest to learn about, you know, myself and, and to 250 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,160 find a father. And so Linda, she came up with, 251 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,760 she came up with three candidates right off the bat, 252 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,200 after a lot of searching, she gave me the name of the guy. 253 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,720 There was this married couple that lived around the corner 254 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,600 from us I didn't know anything about. 255 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,600 But Jack and Juanita, they were the ones who first moved to 256 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,640 California around the 19. Yeah, it would have been just 257 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,520 before dad and mom, and they were good friends of theirs back 258 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,320 in Detroit, and they encouraged them to move out to California. 259 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:03,880 So we're living right around the corner from them. 260 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,480 So Linda thought maybe, you know, Jack was, he's kind of 261 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,240 tall, WAVY hair and that I looked more like him anyway than 262 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,800 I did my dad. So she thought that might be a 263 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,160 candidate. And then there was Linda's own 264 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:23,360 father, Frank, who again, not so tall, but he had the WAVY hair 265 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,360 and he also had bad acne and he had those, you know, acne scars, 266 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,120 which I had. And I had adolescence. 267 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,160 Of course we didn't think of it immediately, but of course he 268 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,440 couldn't have been my father because Linda had taken the DNA 269 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,680 test and she, you know, she had, She had. 270 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,280 She was on the 1st, yeah. You're just trying to find any 271 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,640 any connection though, so you're thinking of all possibilities. 272 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,080 Right, right. And she was only, she was 273 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,520 definitely a first cousin, which meant that Frank, you know, her 274 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,440 father couldn't be my father. And then she suggested her 275 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,840 stepfather, Margie, married again, had four more children. 276 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,599 So eventually they had eight children, and they're all girls. 277 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,599 But he had a brother, Linda's uncle Bob, and both Bob and Jim 278 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,880 were tall with the WAVY hair. Again, she showed me a picture 279 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,119 of him. I didn't remember much about 280 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,040 Bob. I knew Jim really well. 281 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,440 So I did all this research on ancestry, looking at documents 282 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,920 and records and trying to see what I could find. 283 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,000 She even suggested I asked Jim if he would take ADNA test. 284 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,200 And so I did. And begrudgingly he agreed and 285 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,920 he took the test and he and I remember the reply in the 286 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,080 e-mail. He said yeah, just like I 287 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,240 thought, yeah, we're not, no, we're not related. 288 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,480 So then the other job I had to do was start messaging my 289 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,640 paternal cousins and seeing what I could find. 290 00:17:51,800 --> 00:18:00,640 This took over 2 years of this kind of research and because 291 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,920 partly I really didn't know what I was doing and when I would get 292 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,720 messages, when I would contact my paternal cousins and ask them 293 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,120 questions and they reply to me, I just assumed that everybody 294 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:17,480 else out there in ancestry land knows more about it than I do. 295 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,400 But I realized, no, that's that's not true. 296 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,960 Many are as confused as I was. You know, about how this all 297 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,000 works. So there were two cousins that 298 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,800 that came to play key in unlocking the mystery, and that 299 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:37,880 was Stephanie and Leslie. And at first this is an example 300 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,200 of how Leslie wasn't quite sure how to understand the 301 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,760 information because, you know, I told her who I was and where I 302 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,680 was born and, you know, gave her my last name and all that. 303 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:53,480 I listed the these other men, their surnames in my profile 304 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,120 just in case. But Leslie responded by saying 305 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,520 that she doesn't know she she doesn't have anybody in her 306 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,560 family tree with my last name. And of course he doesn't, 307 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,440 because. Right, because that's, yeah, 308 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,200 it's, it's not about the last name. 309 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,400 It's the DNA. Right, right, right. 310 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,800 I'm not because I'm, I, I shouldn't have that last name 311 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,800 either. And she was slow to respond and 312 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,120 I would contact her occasionally and, and then there was another 313 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,240 cousin, Stephanie. Stephanie was, was obviously 314 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,280 much more experienced with analyzing, you know, the matches 315 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,760 and looking at the DNA shares. And she had emailed me early on 316 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,200 with some questions, but I didn't really understand the 317 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,280 significance of it at the time. But she had asked me about, she 318 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,320 knows that I had a name in my tree, but that turned out to be 319 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,640 the wrong name to ask me about because she was looking at my 320 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,040 maternal information. That was another complication 321 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,560 because later I would find out from Nancy that who understood 322 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,360 it better that I had a lot of regional endogamy, right? 323 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:09,680 I had a lot of cousins from Kentucky who are my cousins on 324 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:15,400 both sides of my tree. So Stephanie is asking me about 325 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,360 somebody on her tree, but that was that was the wrong name to 326 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:21,680 be. That was the wrong last name to 327 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,240 be looking at. But I didn't understand that. 328 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:30,760 So finally, close to two years, Stephanie emails me again and 329 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:36,600 she's figured some things out and she has this new last name 330 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,480 and she tells me that she's a part of this family and she sees 331 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,720 that they. So we're on the like we're on 332 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,120 the second cousin level, maybe second cousin once removed. 333 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,000 And so I'm giving Nancy, of course, I'm forwarding her all 334 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,680 these emails. And finally Nancy, through her 335 00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:00,040 digging and doing the math, she comes up with this proto family 336 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,800 tree. There were seven children at the 337 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:11,120 grandfather level. And she was able to narrow that 338 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:15,440 down as we found out more about this family, what we needed to 339 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,120 find at second cousins, right? Second cousins are people who 340 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,200 share great grandparents. So if we could find great 341 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,920 grandparents then we can narrow it down to the grandparent 342 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,720 family. Then they have to have a male 343 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:37,800 child and that male child or its brothers, whatever would, would 344 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,880 most likely be my father. There's another person that 345 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,360 Nancy pulled into this conversation, which is a good 346 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,480 friend of hers from Wisconsin named Carla, who is who has a 347 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:55,240 statistics like expert, but she studied DNA genealogy herself as 348 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,680 an amateur. And so she's providing her 349 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,640 insight. And eventually we found a family 350 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,200 that looked like it was my family. 351 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,640 And so I had a name, I had a father. 352 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,360 And also with Leslie's help was providing this information about 353 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:16,040 the family. She mentioned that the this 354 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:23,400 couple, John and his wife, had four boys and that the couple 355 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:29,240 were still alive in their 90s. Which means that I got 356 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,480 immediately excited about that because it meant that it was a 357 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,840 possibility that my my own biological father was still 358 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,720 alive and maybe I'd have a chance to meet him. 359 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:42,120 What did you think when you narrowed it down? 360 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,240 Well, it was getting more and more exciting because of what we 361 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:50,040 were discovering about John the father. 362 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,080 The first thing that happened was I was on on Ancestry, 363 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,960 looking at the documentation, and there's a picture and it 364 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,880 looks like a yearbook picture. I enlarged it and so there's 365 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,720 this person looking at me and it's in the USC Trojan yearbook 366 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,600 of 1949. That's when John had graduated. 367 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,440 Then I clicked on another picture and another section of 368 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:19,160 the yearbook which showed him as a member of the journalism club. 369 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:31,360 And when I started college myself in 1973, I began as a 370 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,320 journalism major. So that sent, you know, tingles 371 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,800 up my spine. And then and there were a couple 372 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,640 of other pictures of him with that club pictures. 373 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,240 And then I found another picture of him in another yearbook, only 374 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,040 he was on the faculty that in the faculty section and turns 375 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:56,440 out that he was teaching English, which is what I do and 376 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,920 or did I retired a couple of years ago. 377 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,120 So that was amazing. Yeah, to see these connections. 378 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,280 And did you feel like you had anything in common with the 379 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,040 person you believed was your biological father all those 380 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,000 years before? Right. 381 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,760 So dad was, he was kind of a difficult man to love, at least 382 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,240 with, with as far as his children go, because he had kind 383 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,960 of an ego and he didn't really know how to have a conversation. 384 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,440 He liked to tell stories and maybe what do you call it? 385 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,600 You know, go on and on. I I remember one time we were 386 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,800 over at his house this after I was married, you know, for 387 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,600 dinner, he was saying something and, and all I said was I think 388 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,360 you might be exaggerating, you know, kind of jokingly, but with 389 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,080 a straight face. He just says and his eyes kind 390 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,760 of go kind of go cold, you know, kind of dead. 391 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,320 He says, you're calling me a liar. 392 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,360 You know, that's the kind of Congress said you would have. 393 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,360 So I just said no, he wasn't really abusive or, but he 394 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,760 thought, for example, college professors were eggheads. 395 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,360 You know how much respect for, for that kind of education. 396 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,600 He was a very conservative Republican. 397 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,480 My grandfather, his father was a member of the KKK back in 398 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,200 Detroit back in the day. I think I had a pretty good 399 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,800 education and, and, and what it was and what it meant to be a 400 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,120 racist. So there wasn't much. 401 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:32,600 I felt kind of alienated from him a lot of the time. 402 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,200 That would change just before he he passed away, fortunately. 403 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,960 So no. So to find this kind of 404 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,840 information that what appears to be my father is an educated man 405 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,080 teaching English in high school and he had these four sons. 406 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,400 So we searched for them. We had their names. 407 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,200 And so Nancy once again told me to, you know, go, go on Facebook 408 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,080 and wherever else on the Internet to see what you can 409 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,880 find out, which I did. One thing we learned right away 410 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,680 that the these four brothers were all born in the 50s just 411 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,600 like me. And so I came across the one 412 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,800 brother, his name is Robert. I discovered that he taught 413 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,320 chemistry at Community College. Just unbelievable. 414 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,160 And then John, they had a brother, John. 415 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,120 John was a very popular name in this family as as there were in 416 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,640 many families back in the day, was a Carpenter in the school 417 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,760 district. And then there was Paul. 418 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:35,840 It was a little harder to find. I couldn't find him on Facebook. 419 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,920 I found him through just a Google search. 420 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,080 He taught history at a Community College just outside of 421 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,680 Sacramento. So now I have two brothers who 422 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,440 are Community College professors like me and a father who's a 423 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,960 high school teacher, an English high school teacher. 424 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,040 And I mean, it's just incredible. 425 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,120 And and, you know, I've heard stories like this before, but, 426 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:03,800 you know, to have it happen to you. 427 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,680 Well, and it and there were times I, I would cry a little 428 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,160 bit. I know this probably didn't do 429 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,000 me much good, but I would, I imagine what could have been. 430 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,200 Yeah, that's. Common. 431 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,680 Yeah, but what if so, what what were you thinking about? 432 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,320 I mean, I imagine being raised by someone who is who is more 433 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,440 like you, similar career. But what were the the thoughts 434 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,600 that you were having? Well, I, I fantasized this one 435 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,160 scenario where my mom tells me, like maybe when I'm a teenager, 436 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,040 you know, that my father's somebody else. 437 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,560 And the whole time we're living within just like 10 miles of 438 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,600 each other. They, they started out in Los 439 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,280 Angeles, the city of Los Angeles, and then Long Beach. 440 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,200 And Long Beach is so close to Gardena, but it's also really 441 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,440 close to Westminster, where I went to high school. 442 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,400 And so I imagine that I find out and then I introduce myself and, 443 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,960 you know, it's a shock, of course. 444 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,920 And then I meet his, his wife, and another stepmother. 445 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,200 So of course they're going to argue and whatever, but they get 446 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,880 over it, you know, because they find me so charming or whatever. 447 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,520 And the the next thing I know, I now have six siblings instead of 448 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,960 just two and with very similar interests. 449 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,040 I think about how what if John had been around to offer me 450 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:23,560 advice because I wanted to go to USC myself, but to save money, I 451 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,600 ended up going to BYU because at the time I was a Mormon. 452 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,320 So I was really had that, that fervent, you know, Mormon, the 453 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,520 passion. I thought that he would have 454 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,840 been this, this father would have been a good person maybe to 455 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,640 receive some counseling, some advice about how to proceed with 456 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,760 your college career. So Nancy and Carla talked to me 457 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,480 about how to I need to make contact with these four 458 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,280 brothers. They decided it would be better 459 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,800 to contact the brothers instead of the father. 460 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,960 They coached me on writing a letter, an e-mail, this first 461 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,800 e-mail where I just kind of put some feelers out and I emailed 462 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:08,040 Robert mentioned that, you know, I took a test DNA looks like you 463 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,600 were related just as a way to to see how receptive he would be. 464 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,160 Maybe I was being a little deceptive, but I didn't want to 465 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,960 scare him too much. I wanted to verify some 466 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,520 information, like, so you have you have these brothers and a 467 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,000 father and a mother and these names and whatever. 468 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,240 He wrote back within an hour. So yeah. 469 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,040 Hey, Wow. That's crazy, you know? 470 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,520 Yeah. I don't know where where you fit 471 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,760 in, but, you know, if you need any more information, go ahead 472 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,080 and contact me. So then my next e-mail, Nancy 473 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,400 suggests I just come out and to tell him that I thank your 474 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:46,480 father is my father. And then silence for a while. 475 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,240 A week passes without any response and I asked Nancy if I 476 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,280 should contact him again and she said no, no, you're going to 477 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,720 have to play it cool here, just wait. 478 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:03,200 And another week passes and she explains how Robert may have 479 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,480 shown this e-mail to his brothers, or maybe not, but he's 480 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,440 he may be in shock and doesn't know what to do. 481 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,360 But eventually she says OK, go ahead and write another letter. 482 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:21,080 And so I do more silence. And then finally her and Carla 483 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,600 persuaded me to write a longer, more detailed letter and to 484 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,600 include providing information about where I was born and grew 485 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:35,320 up and the to include three photos in the letter, one of me 486 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,920 and my two boys around the age of 10 or 11. 487 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,480 So that's what I do now. Before I was just writing to 488 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,240 Robert individually. By this time we had found Mark's 489 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,320 e-mail address, so we wrote to all four. 490 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,280 And then we waited. At this point, you've been 491 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,040 waiting two years, right? Just to really like. 492 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,440 Yeah, we're now getting to test was in 2014. 493 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,920 We're getting close to like December of 2016. 494 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,760 That was after a lot of red herrings and false leads and 495 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,360 bump steers and just taking a lot of time just to get a 496 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,440 response from people in the early stages. 497 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:20,720 I thought, well, there's no way we're going to. 498 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,960 This is like looking for a pen, you know, in the proverbial 499 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,720 haystack. But you know, we did find it 500 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,720 thanks to and I was just again, like I said, really lucky to 501 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,880 have Nancy there to help guide me. 502 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:42,200 So we get this letter back and it's from the four brothers, a 503 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,400 very well written letter and they say the information that 504 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,560 you've provided that leaves little doubt that you are a 505 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,840 sibling. And then they laid out next 506 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,040 steps is the way they phrased it. 507 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,440 So they had no problem believing that I was their brother, but 508 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,440 given their parents old age, they did not want to cause them 509 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,760 any unnecessary distress. So their father and mother 510 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,400 cannot know about me. They apologize for that. 511 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,840 But that's just the way it it's, you know, it has to be at this 512 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,640 point. So that was sad to hear. 513 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,480 But I understood it completely and said, yeah, I no problem. 514 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,720 I, you know, I understand. And then they said maybe in in 515 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,400 the future, you know, we'll be able to, you know, maybe meet 516 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,840 or, or whatever to get that long detailed letter. 517 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,680 I appreciated it, but that's, you know, then I realized for 518 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,160 sure, yeah, there's no way I'm going to. 519 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,040 I'm going to be able to meet my biological father. 520 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,920 It seems so close. Yeah. 521 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,960 Sure. And then in it would have been 522 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:55,720 the two 2017. Oh no, it was actually 2018 when 523 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,520 I learned that that John, my biological father, I passed away 524 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,560 and one of the brothers wrote this really touching, beautiful 525 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,400 eulogy commemorating their father. 526 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,760 And that's when I learned that he was he was at Pearl Harbor in 527 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:15,880 World War 2 on a minesweeper in 2018, might have been 2019. 528 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,680 I was trying to since they were opened to a, to a meeting 529 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,760 sometime. I wanted to make it really easy 530 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,040 for him to meet me. Two of the brothers are in 531 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,960 Northern California. The other two are in Southern 532 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,000 California. And I thought, boy, wouldn't it 533 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,480 be nice if I could find a conference to go to, an academic 534 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,960 conference in the Bay Area, which I knew there were plenty 535 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,680 of those during spring break, would be perfect. 536 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,680 And then I could let him know that, well, I happen to be going 537 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,640 to a conference in San Francisco or wherever, and if you'd like 538 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,600 to get together, you know, I'd love to. 539 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,280 Well, that's exactly what happened. 540 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,080 So I was able to write that letter and I got to meet Paul 541 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,560 and Mark. I was very nervous. 542 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,800 Of course, it's kind of awkward at 1st. 543 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,880 And we brought pictures to exchange. 544 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,679 So it was a very nice conversation. 545 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,800 And after a couple of more years passed, Paul sent me an e-mail 546 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,760 out of the blue asking me he had a couple of books from his their 547 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,520 father's library that he'd like to send me if I was interested. 548 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,719 And I said, yeah, you bet. A few weeks later, I received 549 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:33,080 their dad's copy of Gulliver's Travels, an edition which had 550 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,840 come out in the early 40s that his that, well, our dad had 551 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,120 purchased in Honolulu in a bookshop, a used bookshop. 552 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,800 And so it's, it's inscribed on the inside. 553 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,159 You know, their dad has his name there and the year. 554 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,639 So I was very, very attached by that. 555 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,600 And the other book was this thick and thought English 556 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,840 literature anthology that John used in his grad school days. 557 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:06,000 And then a similar thing happened with by let's see, 2023 558 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,760 was my high school 50th reunion. So that allowed me that gave me 559 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,960 an excuse to go see the other brothers at a restaurant in 560 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,600 Huntington Beach. So I've been able to meet with 561 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,520 all four brothers once so far. I don't know if I get a chance 562 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,240 to see him again. The final complication is that 563 00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:31,040 while John, the father, passed away in 2018, their mother is 564 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:39,920 still alive, age 104. So they still can't reveal my 565 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,000 identity. So they can't let everybody know 566 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,240 you know, who I am. So that's kind of ironic, I 567 00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:51,360 guess I'm, I make a joke about it to, you know, friends and 568 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,400 family that she's just doing that out of spite to frustrate 569 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,960 my plans. Yeah, yeah. 570 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,120 I mean, what are what would you like to see happen, you know, in 571 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,400 the future? Well, I don't have to be honest, 572 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,440 I don't really have high hopes. I mean, the distance is a 573 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,720 problem. 2000 miles if we don't get to ever see each other in 574 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,040 person again, you know, I'm fine with that. 575 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,840 After their mother passes away, there might be more of an excuse 576 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,680 to They might want me to come out, introduce me to the 577 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,920 extended family, but maybe not I I don't really know what, given 578 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,360 my age and the distance to California and all that, who 579 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,440 knows? We'll just just see how it 580 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,600 unfolds. What advice do you have for a 581 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,960 parent who might be keeping adna surprised from their child? 582 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,760 Like others, I feel that a child has the right to know who is 583 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:51,000 mother and father are, and that children want to know where they 584 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,560 come from. It seems to me I want to know 585 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,880 who I am, and a big part of that has to do with who your parents 586 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,640 are and why you are the way you are, to not reveal that 587 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,000 information. And I understand my mother 588 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,680 committed adultery. Well, the more I read, the more 589 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,600 I've realized over the years that adultery is a very popular 590 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,120 thing all down through history. And it happens and then there's 591 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,000 some very interesting stories out there. 592 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,200 And so I understand the shame. And fortunately in the modern 593 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,480 world now, this does have quite the same stigma as it used to. 594 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,040 So I've I've accepted the idea that I'm a bastard. 595 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,600 There's a lot of us, but it just doesn't mean anything. 596 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:36,400 That word like it used to where you could lose out and on an 597 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:43,120 inheritance simply from that. But parents need to because so I 598 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,560 have this kind of resentment now towards my mother that she 599 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,720 couldn't tell me. This may be the most important 600 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,480 thing she could have told me. She decided not to. 601 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,240 And both my parents went to the grave with that secret. 602 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,680 That's just really, really unfair to the child. 603 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,680 That's not right. No, And what advice do you have 604 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,720 for someone who just uncovered Adna surprise? 605 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,560 Having a support group to help you get through it. 606 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,600 And of course I had Nancy in my experience, but I also came 607 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,680 across DNA detectives on Facebook. 608 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,760 There were a lot of very supportive, friendly people out 609 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,200 there who who answered questions for me and provided that support 610 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:34,480 through this ordeal and that. And I saw a lot of stories, 611 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,760 very, the happy stories, very tragic stories. 612 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,680 That's a, a good resource. I, I found DNA detectives and of 613 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,400 course there's tons of books out there and there's the resources 614 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,480 of how to read and analyze your DNA results. 615 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,800 In my experience, I was baffled, confused. 616 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,160 But we're older. But it takes time. 617 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,520 Yeah. Well, Randy, thank you so much 618 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,480 for joining me today and sharing your story. 619 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,160 I'm always fascinated by these stories that take a while to 620 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:13,000 kind of come into focus. I hope that, well, I, I guess I 621 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,680 should say I, it's not like I'm hoping for anyone to pass, but I 622 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,320 do hope that soon, you know, you'll be able to maybe be a 623 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,680 little bit more public or, or see what the next phase of a 624 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,600 relationship could be with the newfound family that you 625 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,880 discovered. So I I just wish you the best 626 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,320 and thank you for your time today. 627 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,480 Oh, thank you very much. Thanks again to Randy for 628 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,400 sharing his story. If you have Adna surprise that 629 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,080 you'd like to share, submit your story at dnasurprises.com and 630 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,560 for early add free access to episodes, join me over on 631 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,480 patreon@patreon.com/DNA Surprises. 632 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:58,160 Until next time, DNA Surprises is hosted, produced and edited 633 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,320 by me, Alexis Oursalt. It is mixed and mastered by Josh 634 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,000 Oursalt of Siren Recording Studios.