1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,920 I think at the time I was embarrassed by myself having 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:08,160 such a physical reaction to finding out this news and and 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,000 actually a little afraid to find out that it wasn't true, that 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,720 maybe the DNA sample had been mixed or something, because then 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,760 I would be so crushed because it was such a relief. 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,000 Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that delves into the 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,640 world of unexpected DNA discoveries. 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:31,160 I'm your host, Alexis ourselves. In July 2021, my life took a 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:36,040 surprising turn when I found out that I'm an NPE, a person who 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,880 has experienced a non paternal event. 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,440 In other words, my biological father isn't who I thought he 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,440 was. Join me as we explore the 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,520 stories of NP, ES, adoptees and donor conceived people and their 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,320 families. Get ready to unravel the 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,480 astonishing journeys that begin with a simple DNA test. 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:05,560 This is DNA surprises. Who would I have become if I had 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,600 known the truth? How were the interactions I had 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,320 throughout my life colored by an unknown truth? 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,920 These are questions so many of us ask ourselves over and over 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,640 and over again. The reality is, we will never 21 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,480 know, no more than we'd know who we would have become if we'd 22 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,440 been born in another country. Part of the DNA Surprise 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,360 experience is coming to terms with this. 24 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,520 In this week's episode, I'm joined by Guy, who I first 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,760 interviewed back in season 3. When we first spoke, Guy had 26 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,560 just experienced his surprise, and he wasn't sure what he was 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,000 going to do next. One of the things that struck me 28 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,800 was how freeing Guy found the revelation to be. 29 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,560 Guy shares what's come up for him since we first spoke, 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,520 including the many ways he's been analyzing and re analyzing 31 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,680 his past. In the two years since we spoke, 32 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,400 Guy's come to the realization that the facts of his situation 33 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,919 don't matter much to him and that all he has is now. 34 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:16,320 PS If you think DNA surprises are all sad all of the time, 35 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,720 this episode is a good reminder that it's OK to laugh sometimes. 36 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,960 Thank you, Guy, for sharing your story today. 37 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,960 I am joined by Guy. He was on the podcast in 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,320 November of 2022. So that was season 3. 39 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:40,240 We're actually going to do a little bit of an update and see 40 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,720 what has happened with Guy and his DNA surprise since we last 41 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,880 spoke. So welcome, Guy. 42 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,320 Thank you, nice to be back. We left off with you were kind 43 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,800 of it. It was kind of new, your DNA 44 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,640 surprise and you, you weren't really sure where you were going 45 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,880 to go with it. You weren't even really sure how 46 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,800 you felt about the whole thing other than it made a lot of 47 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,200 things make sense for you as far as your role in the family. 48 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,160 Almost two years on, how are you doing today? 49 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,840 It's funny because I, I've thought a lot about this and 50 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,920 I've talked a little bit with friends about how, you know, my 51 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:21,760 family doesn't experience this because it doesn't change their 52 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,760 thoughts of me in any way or nor does it really shade any of 53 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,920 their memories. But it affects every single 54 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:33,360 memory I have of my not just my family. 55 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:39,920 I mean, also it makes me think, Oh well, I wonder, I wonder if I 56 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,200 had known. I mean, I, I'm not someone who 57 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:47,400 thinks I don't live in regret and I, I don't believe you can 58 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,920 go back and pull one string and not have the entire tapestry 59 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,160 fall apart. And so there's no point in 60 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:58,240 saying what if except from a purely an imagination sort of 61 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,240 point of view. And so I've done a lot of that. 62 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,360 I've done a lot of what if imagining. 63 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,960 I mean, ultimately there's no way to know whether something 64 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:12,760 would have been better or not. I didn't pursue finding out more 65 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,880 because there people in my family who's who feel very 66 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,160 pretty convinced of the identity of my birth father. 67 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,840 And that may well be true. I, I'm, I think, completely 68 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:28,240 ambivalent about the, the reality of it or the actual 69 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:35,000 facts of it in that I kind of enjoy being liberated from 70 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,840 fatherhood in that sense, because I didn't feel fathered 71 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,640 growing up. And, and so not having the 72 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,120 opportunity really to the person that many, many family members 73 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,600 think is the most likely to be the person and there's some very 74 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,560 tenuous DNA, you know, this would all be circumstantial 75 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,680 evidence in court. So that's what I keep saying 76 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,240 always whenever my family brings it up, I'm like, there's no 77 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,360 actual proof. And I'm not sure that we ever 78 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,160 could get proof because that person is dead. 79 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:10,960 And, and the most that even contacting his family could get 80 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,560 would be to confirm that I'm somehow related to that family 81 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,760 line, which I already have that confirmation. 82 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,320 But that doesn't necessarily bring me any kind of 83 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,400 enlightenment. And there's no opportunity for 84 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,920 that to bring me enlightenment because I, I won't get to know 85 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,080 this person. I won't get to the experience 86 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,560 being shaped by this person. I've already been shaped by the 87 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:42,760 experience of having my paternity in question in the 88 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,560 sense that there's been a lot of questioning in my mind. 89 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,000 Like, who knew? The The thing is, there's just 90 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,040 nobody around. There's they're all gone. 91 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:56,320 You know, we're old, you know, And so anybody that we might ask 92 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,720 is just is gone. And every now and then I have a 93 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,480 fantasy about going up to that town and walking through it and 94 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,240 thinking that somebody will spot my face and say, Oh my God, I 95 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,400 can't believe it. But you know, that's not going 96 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,760 to happen. Nobody knows me up there. 97 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,080 I was six months old when I left that town. 98 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,160 You know, Now I do look remarkably like my mother. 99 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:24,040 So it's entirely possible that some poor 80 year old man could 100 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:29,680 see me and be like, Oh no, but, but, but I don't know what good 101 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,640 would come of it. The mystery of who my father is 102 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,840 is almost irrelevant. Can you tell tell me more about 103 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:39,320 that? Because so many people that I 104 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,200 speak to that they want to know who it is and they want to know 105 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,120 as much information. And as I always say, everybody's 106 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,120 feelings about their experience are valid. 107 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,200 So your outlook is just as valid as the next person. 108 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,120 But I'm, I'm so curious about, you know, why you have that 109 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,400 perspective of it. It doesn't matter who he is. 110 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,880 It's more just how this whole thing has affected you. 111 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,600 It frustrates pretty much everybody in my in my life that 112 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:15,840 I have not pursued this or show much interest in the actual 113 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,640 facts of the of fatherhood. And that is, I think because I 114 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,120 don't want to say the damage is done because I don't view it 115 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:27,120 that way as much as what shaped me as a person was my experience 116 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,520 of feeling so like an outsider. And it's funny, it's hard when I 117 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,920 know some relatives have listened to the podcast and I 118 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,960 think some of them were a little hurt at the suggestion that 119 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,080 maybe they had excluded me. And I never met that to a large 120 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,160 degree, I probably would have been treated very similarly. 121 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:53,400 I was a weird Sissy kid and I'm sure other other Sissy boys had 122 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,240 similar experiences, even with their own actual birth father. 123 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,480 And that's the thing that I think I come down to is that it 124 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,840 almost, again, is irrelevant whether he knew or not, because 125 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,440 it doesn't change the relationship he shaped with me. 126 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,720 It doesn't change the coldness. It doesn't change the 127 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,000 indifference. And I certainly have known 128 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,080 enough gay men in my life to know that that's not an uncommon 129 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,680 experience. And whether that is a result of 130 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,440 fathers who feel alienated from a child who's not like them, I 131 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,440 don't know. And because I, I can't know that 132 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,360 because he never would have shared anything with me that 133 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,720 way. Now, I think I dismissed a lot 134 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,799 of his behavior toward me as a kind of sense of humor that I 135 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:44,920 didn't understand. And I will say this in light of 136 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:50,800 these new facts, it makes me feel that I didn't see the OR 137 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,440 didn't want to see the, the actual hostility that was there. 138 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:01,320 And and that's still hard to process. 139 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,840 And so I would rather be fatherless than have another 140 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,360 father that I can know nothing about, that I can't communicate 141 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,680 with, who can essentially give me nothing. 142 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:17,760 And to find out that my birth father may have been even less 143 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,880 affectionate or less willing to, to know who I was. 144 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,080 I, I don't think I want that. And it's almost just as bad to 145 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,360 find out, Oh no, we would have gotten along great and he would 146 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,400 have been a great father to me. And you know, So what do I have 147 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,120 to gain by that? What I gained most from this was 148 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,680 that liberation was that I don't have to feel guilty, which I had 149 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:45,360 felt felt for 50 something years about having the lack of 150 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,160 affection I had for my first certificate of father. 151 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:53,200 That I felt that that was on me, that I was never a good enough 152 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,840 child because I didn't inspire affection in him. 153 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,960 And that that was on me. Now, of course, you know, that's 154 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:03,400 ridiculous because I look at all the children in my life and 155 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,320 think, how could you expect that 2 year old, that 4 year old, 156 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,720 that 12 year old, that 18 year old to have that kind of 157 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,800 responsibility toward the adult in their life? 158 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,560 And, and, and I know that. And so in that sense, the truth 159 00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:18,760 has helped me feel liberated from that burden. 160 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,600 There's nothing to put in its place though, and so that's 161 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,840 fine. I'd rather have an empty space 162 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,000 than something that I can't engage with. 163 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,000 Now. Look, if I had found this out 20 164 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,560 years ago, 15 years ago, I don't know because they would have 165 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:39,760 both been alive and he would have been alive. 166 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,680 And who can say if I had known as a child, how would that have 167 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:45,640 been different? I don't know, you know, I don't 168 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,000 know any more than you know, what if I had grown up in 169 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,880 California or you know, I mean, just things. 170 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:55,520 Like that, you know, and I, I totally respect and understand 171 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,800 that perspective of not wanting to spend a ton of time in the 172 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,840 what ifs because there are so many different paths that you 173 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,160 could have gone down like yours. What if you'd grown up in 174 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:07,560 California? What if? 175 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,440 Well, I bring that up because I was convinced as a child that 176 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,640 had I grown up in California, I would have been on the new 177 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,960 Mickey Mouse Club. Obviously, yeah. 178 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,280 It was only proximity that kept me from being a child star. 179 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,200 I used to always say that the greatest thing was that my 180 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,280 parents didn't get in my way and that they didn't put Roblox in 181 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,520 front of me. Of course, it's hard not to re 182 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,640 evaluate that now as indifference. 183 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,120 That's the nicest thing I can say about it. 184 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,200 I think it was hard again, probably to embrace me, not just 185 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,880 physically, which was true, but also just when I look at the 186 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,480 facts of how, you know, that we left that town, that bucolic 187 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,360 environment that my brother and sister loved growing up in and 188 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,360 was close to all of my father's family. 189 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,880 Not because of me, but I, I have no evidence of that. 190 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,960 But it was, you know, literally 6 months after I was born in a 191 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,000 very small town. Who knows what it would have 192 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,280 been like. I mean, I've always been so 193 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,080 grateful even before I knew this, that we left when we did 194 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,000 because we moved to Indianapolis and you know, that was the big 195 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,320 city as far as I was concerned. But now looking at it, I think, 196 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,960 wow, me coming into existence, it must have been a constant 197 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:31,800 reminder that I had not me, of course, but that my existence 198 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,520 was a bump in the road, was a now. 199 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,000 Whether that got smoothed over eventually, I don't know. 200 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,800 I don't know what their relationship would have been 201 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,680 like had I not been born, or whether they would have even 202 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:44,960 stayed together. Who knows? 203 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,000 These are things we can't be Privy to our parents inner 204 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,440 lives. And so young. 205 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,520 My mother was not even 27 when I was born. 206 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,400 So I think back to my God, those were the worst years of my life 207 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,400 in terms of decision making and emotional turmoil. 208 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:06,960 And I, I just can't imagine having that kind of burden and 209 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:11,120 having to make those kind of decisions of was it better to 210 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,080 stay in a relationship? Could she have left a 211 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,560 relationship with two kids but she couldn't leave one with 212 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:17,960 three? I don't know. 213 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,680 In the two years since we've spoken, how has your perception 214 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:27,000 of your mother changed? Or has it not because you really 215 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,520 had a very frank view of your mom? 216 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:35,120 I mean, I feel like you had a lot of empathy and compassion 217 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,640 for her situation, but you also kind of described her truly as 218 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,720 you saw her. And now that you have a little 219 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,760 more distance between your DNA surprise and some of the choices 220 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,360 that she made, how do you how do you land with her now I. 221 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:55,560 Mean that was hard won with my mother, but she's been gone now 222 00:13:55,560 --> 00:14:01,040 for, oh, 15 years. And so I've had a lot of time to 223 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,040 think about her and and see her as a character in her story more 224 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,200 than as a character in my story. So when I make her the main 225 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,280 character of all of this, and I did that young because I didn't 226 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,760 understand a lot of times, she was not a typical mother in the 227 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,880 way that we saw mothers on television. 228 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,240 And not just on television, but, you know, my friends, when I 229 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,240 became aware of that in grade school, I kind of liked it. 230 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,520 You know, I mean, I still do. I still do. 231 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,600 Or it's irrelevant to say whether I like it or not. 232 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,600 It is the mother I had. Yeah, you keep kind of going 233 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,080 back to that. It's almost like extreme radical 234 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,680 acceptance of like it. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't 235 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,600 matter. It's just how she was. 236 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,000 So anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted you, but I just 237 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,480 keep. Hearing that, I believe that 238 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,600 you, you know, you feel what you feel and that's real. 239 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,520 But I also think sometimes you have to say, OK, I'm never going 240 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,160 to understand this and that doesn't mean I'm going to let go 241 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,680 of it. That means I may Mull over this 242 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,440 my entire life and that is hard won realization of my part. 243 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,600 I, I have spent my adult life thinking if I review this 244 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,600 enough, I will understand this and that will allow me not to 245 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,080 think about it ever again. I'm not sure if it's acceptance 246 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:23,680 as much as just this is just you just are this way that my brain 247 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,880 is not interested in being at rest. 248 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,360 It is interested in constantly raking over everything of my 249 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,960 life. I always say that I I admire 250 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,560 people so much who can compartmentalize because I'm not 251 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:43,320 like that Everything like is out in my brain all at once. 252 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:48,920 And I live all of my life all at once and it's neither good nor 253 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,240 bad. It's just the way I experience 254 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,440 it. And so with my mom, new things 255 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:01,520 help me understand her a little bit better and help me see her 256 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,760 dilemmas. But again, that's me 257 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,560 extrapolating. So I don't know. 258 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,400 I mean, she's still fascinating to me. 259 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,280 But even before all this, I used to say that everyone, every 260 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,400 single person who had a relationship with a mother of 261 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,440 any kind could write about their mother and nothing else for the 262 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,400 rest of their lives and and still have material because it 263 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,480 is such a, it's such a fascinating connection. 264 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,040 I don't know. I mean, yeah, she remains, if 265 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,520 anything, more a mystery to me. I asked lots of questions, like 266 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,600 why wouldn't she tell me? And why would she go to her 267 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,240 grave literally keeping this from me? 268 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,160 It wasn't as if she didn't know. I mean, that's just a that's a 269 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,880 ridiculous. And I tried to convince myself 270 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,800 of all the ways that she could have just not known. 271 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,800 It's not realistic. And knowing her, it might very 272 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,960 well have been on purpose. I remember when I reached out to 273 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,720 people about giving updates on their stories and, and one of 274 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,240 the things that you had said to me since we last spoke was just 275 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:12,640 that a lot has come up for you since we initially spoke because 276 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:17,560 you hadn't necessarily dived real deep into your feelings 277 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,560 around the DNA surprise. So can you talk a little bit 278 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:26,240 about what has come up for you specifically around the DNA 279 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,880 surprise? I mean, when I found out I was 280 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,600 55. And so by that point in my life, 281 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,040 again, because I am a constant muser and reviewer, you know, 282 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,680 I've done a lot of work examining my complicated 283 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,560 relationships with my parents and or the lack thereof and 284 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,000 finding ways to make it make sense to me. 285 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,080 And so I felt that at that point, though I was not 286 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:55,240 satisfied with the results, I was resolved to them that even 287 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,400 in his last few years, the two years after my mother died, when 288 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:04,480 my father was really at at sea and made somewhat drunken 289 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,720 attempts to connect. And in my head, I thought, well, 290 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,400 I'm sorry, I've done already. You know, this is this is too 291 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,240 late. In my head, of course, I never 292 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:15,440 would have said these things to him. 293 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,040 I can't meet you where you're finally willing to come. 294 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,680 Because I left this behind because it was the only way for 295 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,200 me to live and to survive is to to make my peace with this. 296 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,720 It would never be satisfying, but it would be done. 297 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,840 I'm not going to keep working on this and I'm not going to reopen 298 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,960 this case. And so this threw a whole big 299 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,640 monkey wrench into that kind of resignation in that it just made 300 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,400 me be like, oh God damn. There's a whole bunch of stuff I 301 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:52,400 did not factor into this. And and I did have a lot of 302 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,520 rage, although rage so dramatic and so violent. 303 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,240 It was just more of like a I was pissed off again. 304 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,880 None of this was surprising. It all made sense and it all 305 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,480 made everything kind of fall into place. 306 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,640 I was pissed mostly because I was like, I was done with this. 307 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,600 This was a case that was resolved and now there's this 308 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,440 new DNA evidence and we have to open the investigation all over 309 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,640 again. And so, you know, it continues 310 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:28,240 to evade me, the resolution that I thought I had come to because 311 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,680 now, unfortunately, there's just no way. 312 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,760 That's so funny. I, I remember Oprah talking 313 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,000 about how the universe just teaches the same thing over and 314 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,480 again, over again. And it waits till you get real 315 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,960 cocky about lessons that you think you've learned. 316 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,440 And then it gives you that same damn lesson and on new guys. 317 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,120 And you're like, can't believe I fell for this again. 318 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,240 And and that's sort of how this feels. 319 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,760 I feel sort of hoodwinked in that, no, I did all this work. 320 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,120 I don't know and I'm not, I'm not, you know what we're not 321 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,000 paying. We're not going to, we're going 322 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,040 to put this piece of evidence that's come in a little envelope 323 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,920 and we're going to drop it, you know, in a mailbox somewhere. 324 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,600 We're not going to deal with it because it screws up a very tidy 325 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,640 ending. But of course, that's not how 326 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,520 life is. So it, it will continue. 327 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,200 I admire people who have found a way to integrate it into their 328 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,480 lives. And again. 20 years ago, that 329 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,040 may well have been useful to me, but I'm not. 330 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,800 I don't see how it can now. It's all speculation. 331 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:34,480 It will always be me thinking, oh, yeah, Remember that time 332 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,480 that dot, dot, dot. Yeah. 333 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,200 Is that different because of this? 334 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,160 Well, yeah. Because even if it wasn't really 335 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,240 different, even if it would have been the same result, I now have 336 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,320 that doubt. I now have that, well, maybe 337 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,160 this is because I wasn't his kid. 338 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,160 Maybe this is because I was a pregnancy that she five years 339 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,240 later wouldn't have kept. And I'm, you know, I mean, 340 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,920 again, I have thought about this a lot, of course, in light of 341 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,800 recent developments with Women's Health and women's productive 342 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,280 reproductive rights is that I grew up from a very young age as 343 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,160 a staunch feminist and a staunch supporter of women's choice 344 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,520 because my mother was. And that doesn't change with the 345 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,880 thought that, oh, had she had the ability to do that, she 346 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,440 would have made that choice. I don't know that for sure, but 347 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,120 at least she would have had that choice. 348 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,280 And what difference would it make to me? 349 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:33,840 I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't know the difference. 350 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,920 So. It's so complex because, yeah, 351 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,160 you there's, there is so much room for speculation because 352 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,920 maybe she wouldn't have, but then maybe she did it on 353 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,960 purpose. And it seems like it's almost a 354 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,160 universal experience across people that have had DNA 355 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:59,200 surprises of looking back at moments and almost looking at 356 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,720 them in a different light. And and to your point, maybe 357 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,840 there's nothing different about that moment, but we'll never 358 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,800 know because we didn't know. That's a really interesting 359 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,160 insight, though, to to kind of ponder. 360 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,520 I'm curious about your relationship with your sister 361 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,960 because I know last time we spoke, it was like, hey, nothing 362 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,280 changes. You're very close, I think. 363 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,240 Are you neighbors? Is that correct? 364 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,600 Yes, we are neighbors. I'm I can hear her out yelling 365 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,560 at her chickens right now. So which I could not be more 366 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,920 grateful for. I mean, just really, I just I'm 367 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,600 so grateful just in general to have her in my life. 368 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,760 But also, you know, I mean, I'm feel very fortunate to have her 369 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,080 next door. There's not a change. 370 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:51,040 I feel bad sometimes because I think it causes her distress to 371 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,320 to hear me talk about it. She was six years old when I was 372 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,800 born. But because she's the oldest, 373 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,760 she has this thought of like, she should have done something. 374 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,280 She should have prevented these things that, you know, caused me 375 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,880 pain. Well, of course, you know when I 376 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,600 say this, if you were over and over again, you were a child, 377 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,000 that is not your responsibility. You did not have that kind of 378 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,800 power. But I think she feels guilty 379 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:20,360 that she even got the tests, you know, And I feel bad sometimes 380 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:24,920 because I think that my musing has caused her to re evaluate a 381 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,240 lot of moments in her own life or moments within our family 382 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:35,000 that she sees differently. And, and even our parents, you 383 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,200 know, all siblings have different parents. 384 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,640 You know, I, I knew that from before any of this, that your 385 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,560 relationship is always going to be specific, specific to the 386 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,840 time you were born, specific to how old your parents were, all 387 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,000 of that. That's something you cannot 388 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,480 change. I, I cannot, nor did I ever have 389 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,520 the opportunity to not be the youngest. 390 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,040 And so that shapes my entire relationship in the family. 391 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,760 And that's not a, that's not a good or bad. 392 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,640 That's just a, this is it. And so you might as well make 393 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,240 some sense of it. So sometimes I feel bad about 394 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,320 that. I don't want her to feel bad 395 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,480 about this for me, but I can't pretend that it's not 396 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,920 monumental. I think she feels guilty that 397 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,320 she had a very different relationship with my parent. 398 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,640 But that would have happened regardless. 399 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,480 And I don't resent that. I hope not. 400 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,920 Because my existence was such a completely different existence 401 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,920 than hers. So there's no way I could have 402 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,680 ever been treated like she was treated. 403 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,000 Yeah, she's a sweeter person. I'm just not that nice. 404 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,920 I say that with humor, but it's really true. 405 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,720 I know, I know. She's the nicest person that I 406 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,720 know. I am not. 407 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,480 And so consequently, our lives would always be different and 408 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:43,920 our relationship with our parents would have been 409 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,960 different. I was not an easy kid to raise. 410 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,880 Again, with no knowledge of any of this. 411 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,040 I was a pain in the ass. But then it goes back to were 412 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,120 you like that because you weren't different, right? 413 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,200 It's like so circular. It is so circular. 414 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,520 Because I mean, there's so many things that yes, I'm just, I 415 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,920 always felt that I was just fundamentally not the same as 416 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,600 the rest of the family. Have you learned much more about 417 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,560 the family without contacting them? 418 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,720 Not really. You know, I've looked up on 419 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,840 Facebook, they're not very active on Facebook. 420 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,040 And again, he has passed. And last time I looked at it, 421 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,240 his wife was still alive, which again was a big factor in me not 422 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,600 wanting to pursue this. Now, it's very unlikely that 423 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,680 this 83 year old woman doesn't have some sense, although I 424 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,880 suppose it's possible. The picture I've got a little 425 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,800 bit of this suspect suggests that she might not be that 426 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,640 surprised. But to what end? 427 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,440 What could I bring to her about this? 428 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,120 I just don't think that there's much to to gain from it. 429 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,600 Now. Again, confirmation bias, but 430 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,560 all my friends and family have seen pictures. 431 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,920 Just, you know, nowadays you can find people's old yearbooks and 432 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,240 all that sort of stuff if you're the kind of sleuth who will look 433 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,880 for it. And so they're of course 434 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,000 convinced because there is a similarity. 435 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,800 I can see it if you want to see it. 436 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,560 They would be laughing at me right now to hear me say this 437 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,600 because it's fairly obvious. The siblings, these people are, 438 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,760 seem like nice people who would never imagine that their father, 439 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,800 you know, had an affair. And so why bring that to them 440 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,000 about a father who's been dead, you know, over 10 years? 441 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,720 Of course, I don't know them. I don't know what their 442 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,720 relationship was with, with him. So I don't think there's 443 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,560 anything for me to gain from it. They may be very nice people, 444 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,200 and in fact I I'm sure they are, but I don't think that there's 445 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,000 anything that would enrich their lives to have that knowledge. 446 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:48,120 Yeah, no, that's, I think that's a very valid point. 447 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,840 And it's nice that you're thoughtful about it, you know, 448 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,280 and that you have considered and and weighed the pros and cons 449 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,000 and of course you can always change your mind. 450 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,120 But I think the the idea that you are being considerate of how 451 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:07,360 it may affect them and then also what you really want out of it. 452 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,400 I mean, it may be my way of disguising that I'm a chicken 453 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,080 shit and don't have the guts to. I'm very good at that. 454 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:17,600 You know, I don't have the guts to take that chance. 455 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,920 You know, I mean, that's characteristic of me that I 456 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,280 don't have, you know, to to adopt A stance of nonchalant 457 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,840 indifference because I don't want to risk the rejection. 458 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,320 That's valid. Yeah. 459 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,600 I mean, I won't. I won't argue against that 460 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,400 possibility. To be clear, you argued it 461 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,760 against yourself just now. I didn't say that. 462 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,920 I didn't call you that. Well, you know, do I contradict 463 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,720 myself? All right, I contradict myself. 464 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,800 Have a little moment of what it's like to live in my head all 465 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,120 the time, but. You can, but yes, I mean you can 466 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,960 see all sides and we can spend so much time with the what ifs 467 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,120 and the whys and you can spend spend a lot of time there. 468 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,640 I'm glad to know. Yeah. 469 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,080 You know, I have no regret about that. 470 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,840 That's really good. That's important that you know 471 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,400 that. So you mentioned feeling angry, 472 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,680 having some some anger, feeling kind of pissed off about the 473 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,160 revelation and and why didn't you know? 474 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,840 What other emotions have come up for you in the past couple of 475 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,720 years around your DNA surprise? There is a certain remorse. 476 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:28,280 There's a remorse of what might have been had had things been 477 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,920 different. I feel that remorse, regret for 478 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,360 a relationship that could have been. 479 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:42,640 But then I again I see the the reality of well, that fact isn't 480 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,920 really what made our relationship. 481 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,480 It may well have colored every interaction. 482 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,760 The grown-ups, the parents had with me as well as my 483 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,440 grandmother, my mother's mother. I would not be surprised to find 484 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,520 out that she knew if she didn't know, if it was an actual fact 485 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,560 to her, she always suspected because she was savvy about that 486 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:11,920 sort of stuff. She was such a boon to my spirit 487 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:18,000 in that she seemed to relish everything about me that I was 488 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,280 constantly being told was wrong with me and praised it and 489 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,880 uplifted it. And that was invaluable. 490 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,800 That's what made a fairly unhappy childhood possible for 491 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,360 me to get through. And if there's anything good in 492 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,000 my spirit, it's because I'm faking being like her. 493 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,760 But would she have done that anyway? 494 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,880 You just can't know that. But if if she did know, it does 495 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,560 make it all make sense. The thing I always say to 496 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,040 people, I probably said this before, is I'll never forget 497 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,920 sitting next to her at the sewing machine. 498 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,520 And I was 11 or something, and I don't remember what we were even 499 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,600 talking about. And she said, well, son, there 500 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,880 are no illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents. 501 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,320 And over the years, I thought it was just something pithy that 502 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,920 she had said. But of course, it does make me 503 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,840 think that's interesting. That is, I love the way that you 504 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,600 talk about your relationship with your grandmother. 505 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,480 It just sounds very special. I don't know how I would have 506 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,080 survived without her because she gave me and again, I I don't 507 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,240 make it as a joke that anything good about me is because of her. 508 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,080 And me thinking what would she tell me to do in this situation? 509 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,840 And how very, very often I fail to be able to live up to that, 510 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,800 even with the full knowledge that she was also somebody who 511 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,440 worked her whole life in terms of who she was trying to be and 512 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,040 how she was trying to be better. I used to, I'm sure I've told 513 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,280 you this story before, that when above her sewing machine, where 514 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,120 I spent a lot of time, there was a little newspaper clipping that 515 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,680 said the heaviest burden to carry is a grudge. 516 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,960 And I remember thinking as a child, God, you know, she's so 517 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,000 good. I don't think I can ever be that 518 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,280 good. It's such a such a great wisdom. 519 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,480 And I don't think I'll ever be that good to be able to let go 520 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,040 of grudges. And it was only after she died, 521 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,800 I was telling somebody about this and I was like, wait a 522 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,800 minute, Somebody who can let go of stuff real easy doesn't need 523 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,280 to be reminded to do that every single day, right? 524 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,240 She worked at it. It didn't. 525 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,360 It wasn't that it came naturally to her. 526 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,840 She, from everything she told me, was a also a difficult child 527 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,920 and a pistol and an arguer. And she worked very hard to to 528 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,320 come to that kind of peace, understanding, whatever it was. 529 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,120 And I think she's still was working on it her whole life. 530 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,840 For sure. And that's reassuring, you know. 531 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,760 Yeah, it's a practice. Yes, that's a great yes, process 532 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,800 over product. Yes, exactly, exactly so you're 533 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:56,080 not spending or trying not to spend a ton of time on the past 534 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:02,040 the wise what could have beens, but looking ahead, do you have 535 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,280 anything that you hope will be around your DNA surprise the. 536 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,360 Whole process has made me challenge my own thoughts about 537 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,080 when I start to say, well, what if? 538 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,760 I asked myself, OK, well yeah, what if? 539 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,040 But what's preventing you from living your life as if that had 540 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,440 been true? Partly what keeps me as a deep 541 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,000 seated cynicism. So that's what I fight against 542 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,840 all the time. But I don't know what the answer 543 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:30,440 is. What is that? 544 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,640 What is to keep me from deciding that yes, this is what all made 545 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,520 me, but I don't have to live in that anymore. 546 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,560 And I think that has been the last two years of yes, I'd feel 547 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,800 proud of myself. I was feeling proud of myself 548 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,800 because I had made my peace with this before this, with the with 549 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:54,200 the challenging upbringing that I'd had and the complicated 550 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,240 relationships and just how it affected all my other 551 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,560 relationships in my life. And I was very settled with 552 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,600 that. But this has made me go. 553 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,120 But why can't you just get rid of that? 554 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,000 I mean, yeah, that's true. Yeah, you did grow up in 555 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,240 Indiana. But that doesn't mean anything 556 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,640 anymore. It doesn't have to mean 557 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,600 anything. I love Indiana. 558 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:14,960 That's not digging against Indiana. 559 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,320 It's purely a metaphor. But that the, you know, the 560 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,720 facts of my life don't have to mean anything in the sense that 561 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,600 that those things don't have to prevent me if I am willing to do 562 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,680 the work from the things that I, I blame them for. 563 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,960 You know, they're really, it's really easy to say, oh, well, 564 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,720 that's why I'm not good, you know, doing this. 565 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,160 That's why I am uncomfortable in certain social situations. 566 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,120 That's why I'm bad at relationships. 567 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:53,560 Well, OK, but you don't have to let that continue. 568 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,880 You know, whether I have any success in changing that, I 569 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,520 don't know. But but but maybe that is what 570 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,160 the last few years have given me is that, yeah, you thought 571 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,040 things were this way and they weren't the whole time. 572 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,840 And so the reality is that only right now, that's all there is, 573 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,639 is right now, and you can make a choice not to have that be what 574 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,880 colours everything from the future, you know, going on now. 575 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,920 That's an optimism that I believe strongly in. 576 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,239 Whether I can adhere to. It is often times the hard part. 577 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,480 I was like, I'm sure I said before, I like to think of 578 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,880 myself as a lapsed optimist because that is my nature that 579 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,199 fights constantly with my pragmatic yeah. 580 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,280 Well, just like your grandmother, it's a with her 581 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,040 grudges like it that is, that is a practice. 582 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,320 Last time we spoke, I asked you for advice for somebody who had 583 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,679 had adna surprise and for parents who were keeping adna 584 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:55,840 surprise from their child. Today I would like to ask what 585 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:01,320 advice do you have for guy of two years ago? 586 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,480 Golly that's hard. I'm always thinking about great 587 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,720 things to tell my 17 year old self. 588 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,160 Which is pointless because he wouldn't listen to anything but 589 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,360 the 55 year old guy. I don't know except to say in 590 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,520 that first moment, as much as this all makes sense to you, you 591 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,480 will not understand this and do not let the way that all of 592 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,440 these cards seem to fall into place fool you into believing 593 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:33,240 that you have figured this out because this will never be done. 594 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,840 But it will also perhaps be the first time that you are able to 595 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,000 compartmentalize and not in a negative way, because I think 596 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,000 there's a way to have positive compartmentalization in that or 597 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,480 as I like to joke about being, you know, beneficial 598 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,560 disassociation, you know, and that I don't, I forget about it 599 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,120 because it doesn't change who I've become and it doesn't 600 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,960 change so much. This will be with you and 601 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,560 surprise, surprise you. There will be no easy answer to 602 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:10,000 this, but also maybe the thing I would want me to know is that 603 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:18,280 immediate lifting of shame and guilt will be permanent and that 604 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,040 I did not understand at the time. 605 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,440 And the relief. You don't feel it all the time 606 00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:29,760 because it is like having a hip replacement from what I'm told, 607 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,800 or a knee replacement is that it immediately stops hurting and 608 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,320 you forget about it because that pain is gone and that is 609 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,440 permanent. And so perhaps that's what I 610 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,400 would tell myself, that regardless of all the Sturm and 611 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,720 drain that this will bring up and the avalanche of things that 612 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,760 will happen again, not necessarily because of it, but 613 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,240 in line with it, that feeling will go away. 614 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:56,800 I mean that you won't think about it anymore. 615 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:02,800 That's a small piece of a heavy burden of feeling unworthy that 616 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,080 you can let go of, and that's a great gift. 617 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,960 And the rest of it means you have to do that work now that I 618 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,840 would not want to hear because I don't like to do stuff I'm not 619 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,640 good at right away. Same same Oh guy. 620 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,840 Thank you so much for coming on and giving me an update on your 621 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,000 dirty. I'm so happy to hear that that 622 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,480 pain and and shame and embarrassment has been a 623 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:33,120 permanent relief for you that you aren't faced with that 624 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,520 anymore. And wherever you land, like you 625 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,800 said it, it never fully goes away. 626 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,840 This experience, it's something that we we'll always think 627 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,720 about, but I hope that it continues to get lighter for you 628 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:46,880 well. Thank you. 629 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,760 I love talking to you because actually, I don't think I've 630 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,920 ever vocalized that before to myself, just that, Oh yeah, it 631 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,040 is important to remember that pain was with you so long that 632 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,760 you didn't even know that it was pain anymore because it was the 633 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,680 way to be. And having that lifted is a 634 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,440 miracle. So everything else has been so 635 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,160 worth it. Yeah, it's amazing. 636 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,440 Thanks again to Guy for joining me. 637 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,640 If you have Adna SURPRISE you'd like to share, submit your story 638 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,160 at dnasurprises.com and be sure to join me next week for our 639 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,120 Season 9 finale. You won't want to miss it. 640 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,040 Until next time. This episode of DNA SURPRISES 641 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,960 was hosted, produced and edited by me, Alexis Oursalt. 642 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,800 It was mixed and mastered by Josh Ourselt of Siren Recording 643 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:35,520 Studios.