1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,040 I can respect that. They didn't really know when to 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,840 share this news and their hand was forced and they said, all 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,720 right, now's the time. So that was that was definitely 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,080 a very key piece in terms of like sitting with these emotions 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,440 that I'm having. And I'm asking like, should I be 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,760 angry? Should I be upset? 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,480 And, you know, I can look at it, at it that way and I think it 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,520 would be valid if I felt that way, But I, I asked myself, can 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,720 I understand why they did it this way? 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,200 Can I make sense of it? And even though I think some of 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,680 the decisions were wrong, I can understand why they chose the 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,480 path they chose. And you know, something I, I say 13 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:48,560 to a lot of the guests that I talk about that I talked to on 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:54,080 my own podcast is I don't think it's fair to judge decisions 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,160 from the past with the information we have from the 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,760 present. And back then. 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,560 I mean, it, it seems like parents just followed doctor's 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,160 orders and my parents were no different. 19 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:12,840 So I don't hold it against them. Welcome to DNA Surprises, a 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,000 podcast that explores the life altering world of unexpected DNA 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,080 discoveries. I'm your host Alexis Oursalt. 22 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,960 This show centers the stories of people who've experienced NP, ES 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,560 or non paternal events. In other words, people who've 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,040 learned that their biological father isn't who they thought he 25 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,640 was. We'll also hear from adoptees 26 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:41,960 donor conceived people and the families navigating these 27 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:45,160 discoveries. Get ready to follow the 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,760 incredible journeys that begin with a simple DNA test. 29 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:57,280 This is DNA surprises, my therapist once told me some of 30 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,440 us heal out loud so others don't have to. 31 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,880 I think of that almost every time I get a note from a podcast 32 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,560 listener telling me how much the stories people share each week 33 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,520 have helped them. In this week's episode, I'm 34 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,840 joined by someone who is healing out loud for the donor conceived 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,360 community. Nick, host of the Inconceivably 36 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,720 Connected podcast, shares how he discovered in his 30s that he 37 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,320 was donor conceived. He recounts how his parents 38 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,320 decided to reveal the information and how Adna Test 39 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,800 helped fill in the rest. Since his discovery, Nick 40 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,600 provides a platform for others to share their experiences being 41 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,880 donor conceived and has even written a book about his 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,880 experience. Thank you for sharing your 43 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,400 story, Nick. Hey everybody, my name is Nick. 44 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:55,360 I am 39 years old and I'm from Long Island, New York. 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,560 Where to begin? So I think a good starting point 46 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,320 is on the night of my 36th birthday. 47 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,600 So this is a little over three years ago in January of 2023. 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,120 So on this night, my wife and I, we were living in Brooklyn, NY 49 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,000 in Greenpoint, which is north Brooklyn. 50 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,240 And every year for the most part on my birthday, my family gets 51 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:28,600 together for just a, a, a dinner, some sort of meal to 52 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,200 celebrate my birthday. And my family consists of my 53 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,000 mom, my dad, and then I have a younger brother and a younger 54 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,800 non binary sibling. So three siblings in total. 55 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,360 And we went out to an Italian restaurant in Brooklyn, and 56 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,160 everything seemed totally normal. 57 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,480 At the end of the meal, my wife and I, we were walking home, and 58 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,280 I had been given a few gifts at the dinner table. 59 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,720 And walking back, she says, you know, I know you were supposed 60 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,320 to get another gift tonight, but for some reason, they didn't 61 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,040 give it to you. And I had no idea what she was 62 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:10,840 referring to. And she wasn't gonna tell me 63 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,680 exactly what that gift was. But I was like huh, that's 64 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,480 strange. So Fast forward to the next day 65 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:25,160 and I drove back to my hometown in Long Island to watch, I think 66 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,840 it was the NFL play offs. So the Giants were playing. 67 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:31,160 I'm a big Giants fan and I went back to my parents house to 68 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,040 watch the game with my dad. Before the game started. 69 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,520 He and I are sitting at the kitchen table just, you know, 70 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,080 making small talk. But I could see something was 71 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,520 off. He wasn't totally being his 72 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,080 normal self. And we got to a point in the 73 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,040 conversation where he was like, all right, we have to have a 74 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,520 little talk and mom needs to be here, too. 75 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,360 And in that moment, my first thought was, oh, shit, Like, 76 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,760 somebody's sick and yeah, this, this can't be good. 77 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:08,240 So we're just kind of sitting there waiting for my mom to come 78 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,400 into the room, and she comes to the table and my dad leads the 79 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,120 conversation by saying, you know, last night at dinner for 80 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,160 your birthday, you were supposed to get another gift from your 81 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,280 siblings. And we wanted to talk to you 82 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,800 before you receive that gift because it's a 23 Andme DNA 83 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:35,200 testing kit. And if you were to take that 84 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,600 test, there's a chance that you might receive some surprising 85 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,440 results. And in that moment, I just kind 86 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,200 of froze. Like, I, I just couldn't process 87 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:55,120 what that statement meant. But a couple seconds later, it 88 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,680 started to click. I was like, oh, wait a minute. 89 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,480 And I thought back on how my parents, you know, growing up, 90 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,520 they had alluded to having difficulties conceiving when I 91 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,360 was born. There was definitely a struggle, 92 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,600 but they never really told me anything more than that. 93 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,400 And in this conversation at my parents' house, they kind of 94 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:23,080 divulged how they received fertility treatment to become 95 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,960 pregnant with me. And the way that they did that 96 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,920 was by using a donor, but going through the process called sperm 97 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,960 mixing. So essentially they take the 98 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,160 donor's sperm and mix it with the sperm of my dad's in the 99 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,640 hopes that my dad's sperm is the one that takes. 100 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:47,120 Now, I don't know how I don't think this is rooted in science 101 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,840 so much, but it wasn't an uncommon practice back then 102 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:58,080 where recipient parents would basically go through this this 103 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,120 process. Yeah, I'm definitely not a donor 104 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,040 conception expert, but it almost seemed like it it was almost to 105 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,760 reduce some of the stigma or shame around infertility. 106 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,880 And it's kind of this like, well, it's plausible that, you 107 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,800 know, it could be the the father sperm that created the child or 108 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,280 it could be the donor. Like, you know, you don't, You 109 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,320 don't really know. So they explained to me that 110 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:30,960 this is how they became pregnant and that by taking this test, 111 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,280 there's a chance that I might get surprising results. 112 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:38,640 Now the interesting layer to this this part of the story is 113 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,680 that my younger brother, he's a little a little over 2 years 114 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,880 younger than me. He actually was conceived in the 115 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:51,600 same fashion by sperm mixing. And I don't want to go too much 116 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,800 into what his experience with basically having the same 117 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,680 conversation that I had with my parents. 118 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,920 He was informed that he potentially was not connected to 119 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,880 our dad biologically before my birthday dinner. 120 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:10,080 They were all holding on to this at the dinner and not telling me 121 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,000 what my brother had already found out. 122 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:19,040 So he was he was now aware of this possibility at this family 123 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,680 gathering and couldn't say anything about it. 124 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,920 So it was like torturous for him to be there and not be able to 125 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,120 spill the beans. So anyway, he and I end up going 126 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,840 through this this process together in a lot of ways where 127 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,559 after I discovered that like, whoa, am I really potentially 128 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,320 not biologically connected to my dad? 129 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:48,000 And like, wondering, OK, am I taking this DNA test? 130 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,600 Is there a reason why maybe I shouldn't? 131 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,600 And I slept on it. And the very next morning, I was 132 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,480 like, I'm taking the test. Like, there's no way I'm not 133 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,320 getting this information. And my brother had already 134 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,720 settled on that as well. So for anyone who's taken these 135 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,360 DNA tests, you probably know that it takes about a month for 136 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,240 the results to come back. And over the course of that 137 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,320 month, my brother and I were on the phone with each other. 138 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,280 It, it felt like multiple times a day just talking about like 139 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:25,360 how insane this all is and how, you know, we were really trying 140 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,200 to speculate how our parents were feeling because we could 141 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,400 visibly see that my dad was struggling with the idea that, 142 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:39,040 you know, the full truth was, was about to come to light and 143 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,480 really just navigating these highly unusual emotions 144 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,560 alongside each other. So my brother and I really 145 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:50,040 supported each other before those results came back. 146 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,800 Now when we get the results, my brother eventually, it was 147 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,760 inconclusive at first, but ultimately found out that he and 148 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,120 my dad are biologically connected. 149 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:06,800 So I think that means like he defied the odds of sperm mixing. 150 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:12,600 I actually have never heard of it actually working in favor of 151 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,480 the the child and the parent being biologically connected, 152 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,400 but in his case it did. So in a lot of ways his story 153 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:29,320 stopped there, whereas my story, I get my results back and the 154 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,320 first thing I saw was my, and I did 23 in May. 155 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:37,480 I saw the ancestry composition and right at the top it said 156 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:44,680 like 48.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, which was a huge surprise to me 157 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,520 because I had always grown up believing that I was half Irish, 158 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:52,200 1/4 Italian, quarter German. So never thought that, you know, 159 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,640 Jewish was part of my make up. Now when I look in the mirror, 160 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,480 I'm like, of course, like it, it seems so obvious, but in that 161 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,360 moment it was, it was quite shocking. 162 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,520 And then of course, you flip over to the family tree and 163 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:13,640 that's really where the juicy info presented itself. 164 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,880 So I think on the family tree I could see that I was connected 165 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,840 to seven or eight other half siblings. 166 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,360 I would come to find out in total right now there are 14 of 167 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,200 us. But seeing that, and I guess the 168 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,320 first thing I saw was my own brother who I was raised with 169 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,040 being on there and it his name had the designation as half 170 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,600 brother. And that was really hard for me 171 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,600 to read because I never viewed him that way. 172 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,840 I will never view him that way. But biologically speaking, 173 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,320 that's the truth. And I just, yeah, to see that in 174 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,560 writing was like, I, I didn't know what to make of that. 175 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:05,360 It it just made it all like fully real in that moment. 176 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:14,400 Were there any feelings around the fact that he is biologically 177 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,760 your dad's and you are not? It's a good question. 178 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:26,960 I, I remember speaking with my mom about this and part of our 179 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,760 process even prior to the results coming through were that 180 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,040 it just opened up all of these new kinds of conversations that 181 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,400 we were having as a family that, you know, prior to any of this 182 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,880 being on our radar, probably wouldn't have happened. 183 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,320 So we're really being vulnerable in a way that was new to us. 184 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:54,000 And I remember saying to my mom, if if one of us is going to be 185 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:57,000 not connected to dad, I hope it's me. 186 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:04,680 And I said that because I felt like I was equipped to handle 187 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:11,360 this kind of news for a number of reasons, but I felt like it. 188 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,080 It almost made more sense. Like you know how donor 189 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,320 conceived people. A lot of the times things just 190 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:22,720 seem to click where like that feeling of maybe being a little 191 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:28,480 bit out of place growing up and wondering like, wait, why am I 192 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:30,760 this way? Why am IA little bit different 193 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,800 than everybody else? You know, I didn't feel that in 194 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,440 in any sort of like hugely notable way, but there were 195 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,960 things I could point to and say like, yeah, I am a little bit 196 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,920 different. And if this is true, it would 197 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,960 explain that and I'm OK with that. 198 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:52,840 So, yeah, as far as feelings related to like my brother being 199 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,760 biologically connected, I, it was almost a relief in in some 200 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,320 ways for both of us because I don't know how he would have 201 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,120 handled it. And I knew that I, I knew that I 202 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,240 could make sense of it for myself. 203 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:13,120 So yeah, we get these results and it's a Monday morning, I 204 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,200 think, and I had to go to work. I was working a remote sales 205 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,080 job, so thankfully I didn't have to go to into any office. 206 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:25,040 But I remember sitting in a Greenpoint coffee shop and just 207 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,400 kind of digging through the information that I now had in my 208 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:34,440 hands. And maybe an hour after getting 209 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,360 the results, a message came through on 23 and May from one 210 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:45,240 of my donor half sisters. And that message, I forget 211 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,920 exactly what it said, but essentially it was, hey, like, 212 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,400 I'm not sure if you know, you have all the information that 213 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,640 you might be looking for, but if and when you'd like some of this 214 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,880 information, we have it available and I'm happy to share 215 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:04,640 it with you. So, you know, during the time of 216 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,160 waiting for my results to come back, I had very clearly decided 217 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,560 like, whatever information I can get and however I can pursue all 218 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,080 there is that I could possibly know, like I'm game, like bring 219 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,000 it on. So right away I, I wrote back to 220 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,880 her and I was like, please, like, send me anything and 221 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,440 everything that you have. And within minutes, she sent me 222 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,440 an e-mail that I think the first one was, it was like a photo 223 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:41,720 collage of the half siblings. And I remember distinctly when I 224 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,760 looked at that, First off, I'm catching flashes and glimpses of 225 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,880 myself and these people who at the time were strangers. 226 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:56,800 And I also had this feeling of like, whoa, like I am forever 227 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,800 connected to these people. I don't know who they are yet 228 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,400 and I don't know if I will get to know who they are. 229 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:11,520 But there's a permanent bond now that this collage is a symbol 230 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,120 of. So that was pretty trippy to 231 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,320 look at that. And then after that, I received 232 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,200 another e-mail that was from the donor. 233 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,880 And this really put me at ease in a lot of ways because though 234 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,400 he expressed that he was not interested in fostering any 235 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:41,040 relationships with us, he did in a very kind way outlined he bits 236 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,320 of medical information and a little bit of his family, 237 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,840 family's history, which was all I needed. 238 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,960 I I think ultimately having that acknowledgement from him that 239 00:16:53,960 --> 00:17:00,720 like, yeah, I am the biological father, You have successfully 240 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,600 identified me. And here's what I'm willing to 241 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,800 share that. Yeah. 242 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,119 It just because I think about that hour, right, of having all 243 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,599 of these results, not knowing who the donor was in that hour 244 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,839 and feeling lost, just feeling like, whoa, there's this huge 245 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:22,599 cloud of mystery that's that's hanging over me now and am I 246 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:27,359 ever gonna get answers? And thankfully I got them really 247 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,960 quickly. Yeah, it's kind of amazing that 248 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,360 it's like there was a framework already in place where, OK, when 249 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:37,440 someone takes a test and they match, I don't know if you could 250 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,240 actually expect or or hope for a better outcome, except for maybe 251 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,400 if you were interested in having a relationship. 252 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,400 They did all the early detective work because, you know, from the 253 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,800 information we had on on 23 and May, it wasn't obvious who the 254 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,320 donor was. There were enough clues that 255 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,400 were given for them to put the pieces together. 256 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,800 But yeah, like if it were up to me to figure it out, I'm sure I 257 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,400 could have, but it it would have taken a bit of time for me to 258 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,000 get to the answers that they got to. 259 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,800 So I'm very grateful that I was able to get that upfront. 260 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:19,760 It definitely kept me from experiencing some some real 261 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,240 confusion. And yeah, I don't even know what 262 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,640 would have happened. Do you connect more with your 263 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,960 siblings from that point? Is that is that something that 264 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,280 you want to do at that stage? I think I always knew from the 265 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,440 earliest moments that that was part of what I wanted and what I 266 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,640 was curious to explore. It did take some time for me to 267 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,960 get comfortable with actually pursuing that, but not, not not 268 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,440 that long. It took me maybe a month, a 269 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,320 month and a half. And of the 14 of us, so there 270 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,400 are two sons who were raised by the donor and we actually don't 271 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,480 even know if they are aware of our existence. 272 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:08,440 That is still unclear. Of the remaining 12, I think 273 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,240 it's six of us who have now met in person. 274 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:17,280 And the first meet up was with two of the half brothers we met 275 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,120 at a bar on the Upper Upper East Side of in Manhattan. 276 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,200 And yeah, it was like psychedelic, honestly, to see 277 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,360 someone who was a total stranger. 278 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,280 But no, right from the moment I laid my eyes on them that like, 279 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,800 we are connected. It's just a feeling that like, I 280 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,440 don't think, I don't think anyone else can really 281 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,560 understand what that feels like other than people in the DCP 282 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,120 community. The first brother shows up at 283 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:46,560 the bar. I was the first one to arrive, 284 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,360 he shows up second, and then the third brother shows up 285 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,600 afterwards and we're sitting down. 286 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,280 It's a pretty lively bar, but I just remember looking at them 287 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,640 and like catching glimpses of myself in their faces. 288 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,000 One of them had the same exact facial hair as. 289 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,680 I did the other actually the same 1 was literally wearing 290 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,120 like the same kind of outfit that I had on. 291 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:12,480 We had like a Plaid button down on same, same facial hair, same 292 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,200 haircut, same interests. Like our Instagram feed was kind 293 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,000 of the same like not the feed, but like our accounts. 294 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,800 It's like all the concerts we've gone to and all of the the 295 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,400 travels that we've been on, so it was just so bizarre. 296 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,640 Do you all live in the New York area or are you from all over 297 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,360 the country or? Almost all of us do live in the 298 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,240 the New York area, so we were all born in the same hospital in 299 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:45,240 Long Island and it happens to be the hospital that the donor did 300 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,440 his medical practice at or he was a a a Med student at the 301 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,760 time of his donating. So we all come from the same 302 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,080 hospital. We all grew up in scattered 303 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:03,200 towns around Long Island, and most of us are still either in 304 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,360 Long Island or in New York City. Wow. 305 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,840 OK. So that right, I feel like we 306 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,440 have to talk about that because that's something that comes up 307 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,400 for a lot of DCP is this, you're around people that are related 308 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,160 to you that you don't know. There's worries about dating 309 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:24,200 somebody that you're related to that you don't know. 310 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,480 Did any of that come up for you? Like once you realized how like 311 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,880 literally being born in the same hospital is pretty. 312 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:36,040 Wise so there haven't been too many moments of potentially like 313 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,920 crossing paths. I know one of the brothers and 314 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,480 one of the sisters. They used to go to the same 315 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,080 public swimming pool as children. 316 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,400 However, one of the brothers, so my hometown is broken into like 317 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,880 little villages. There's like four or five 318 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,000 different ones. And one of the brothers lives in 319 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,120 the village that my parents live in right now. 320 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:03,960 He's like 4 streets away. So yeah, like pretty close 321 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,760 proximity there. And I remember when I saw his 322 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,080 name, I was like, that looks like a familiar name. 323 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,080 Like did I play baseball with him when I was a kid? 324 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:18,040 I I don't know for sure, but yeah, I mean, there's definitely 325 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,480 a chance that some of us were brushing shoulders as kids. 326 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,080 And yeah, who knows? I mean, there could be others 327 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,120 out there that don't even know they're part of our group that I 328 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:30,560 could be walking past at the pizza place or, you know, 329 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,560 getting bagels in the morning, whatever it might be. 330 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,880 Is that something that you think about often? 331 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,840 Like, I mean, you're, you're a little bit out from it now, but 332 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,760 you know, sometimes when people first have these discoveries, 333 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,920 it's something that's top of mind, right? 334 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,320 They're thinking about it often when you see people that maybe 335 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,960 you think look like you or does it cross your mind? 336 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,440 Are they related to me? I personally don't, but maybe 337 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,840 that's because I haven't really come across anyone I thought was 338 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,040 like whoa, they could be connected. 339 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,200 However, I will say, and my wife laughs when I tell the story 340 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,320 because we were watching, I'm not going to name the show, but 341 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:14,200 we were watching a really trashy reality show before any of this 342 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,040 donor conceived stuff was on my radar. 343 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,120 And I remember there was this one person, this one guy who was 344 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:24,560 on the show that any time he was on the screen, I like, I, I 345 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,200 almost cringed. I, like, I couldn't watch him 346 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,720 because it felt like I was watching myself in a way that 347 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,520 it's hard for. Yeah. 348 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,640 Like, I couldn't understand it. His mannerisms were the same. 349 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,160 His inflections and his voice were the same. 350 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:46,480 He apparently lives in a Long Island, and there was like an 351 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,320 element of his story where, like his his dad wasn't really in the 352 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,800 picture. So I'm watching this and like, 353 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,480 again, didn't know I was donor conceived as I'm seeing all this 354 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,920 stuff, but just getting this weird gut feeling that like, 355 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,560 there's something about this guy and, you know, a few years past 356 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,000 and I find out I'm donor conceived. 357 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,160 And now I think back on that and I'm like, that guy's probably 358 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,800 part of our group. And I like, I wrestled with the 359 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,880 question of like, do I do I reach out to this guy and 360 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,200 randomly just ask these, these questions about DNA testing 361 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,800 'cause I don't want to be the one to potentially blow up his 362 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,400 world, you know? But that, that feeling I had 363 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,320 watching him on that show was, was something different. 364 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,920 I had never felt it before and I haven't felt it since. 365 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:41,160 So yeah, I don't really, I don't really look for people out and 366 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,320 about in the way that some others might. 367 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:49,680 But that's that's my version of of feeling like there's other 368 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,920 connections. So you've connected with some of 369 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,600 your siblings, You're learning a lot more about them it sounds 370 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,440 like. Do any others join the the pod 371 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,040 after you take your test? Yeah. 372 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,480 So that initial meet up with the two brothers then expanded to 373 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:13,320 two additional brothers and two additional sisters. 374 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,240 So if my math is correct, I think that's 66 of us, maybe 375 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,880 seven of us. We haven't all gotten together 376 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,640 as an entire group. I think we've had one where 377 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,560 everybody but one person was there and it's, yeah, it's 378 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,920 pretty mind boggling to see some of the commonalities that we 379 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,400 have. Like I mentioned before, like 380 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,880 there's there's an interest in music across the board. 381 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:45,440 I think a lot of us tend to be pretty introspective where we we 382 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,520 really like to analyze things just internally and be a little 383 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,320 bit thoughtful about how we express feelings and emotions 384 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,200 and whatever it might be. One of the things that I noticed 385 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:03,400 as I was able to social media stock the donor is that I'm 386 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,440 pretty fanatical about basketball and specifically the 387 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,280 New York Knicks. You can see I'm wearing a Knicks 388 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,880 hat right now. The donor, as I'm examining some 389 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,560 of the photos that I had had access to, I can see he's a huge 390 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,560 basketball fan. And the reason I note that is 391 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:25,320 because in my own family, I'm the only one whoever had a 392 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,520 passion for sports and was really excited about basketball 393 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,120 and playing basketball. And I can see that that clearly 394 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,680 comes from the donor. I can also see that he's an 395 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,520 adventurer in some ways and has some pretty interesting travel 396 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,560 experience. I'm the only person in my family 397 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:51,120 who prioritizes seeing the world and really getting out of my 398 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:55,080 comfort zone and going to places that are sort of off the beaten 399 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,880 path for a lot of people. So there are things that I now 400 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,840 have access to information wise where I can say, you know, with 401 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,800 the nature versus nurture debate in mind, like, oh, there's a lot 402 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,720 on this nature side that I didn't know of before. 403 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,280 I didn't know it was in that bucket. 404 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,880 So that's been pretty fascinating to to see. 405 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:24,360 And one of the other things that I really enjoy, and it's, it's 406 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:27,480 one of the main motivators behind wanting to get as much 407 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,800 experience spending time with these new connections of mine, 408 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:36,880 is that the more I get to know them, these new brothers and 409 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,040 sisters, the more I feel like I understand myself. 410 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,040 That's really awesome. I think hearing you learn about 411 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,720 the donor and some commonalities that you have and maybe how it 412 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,240 was different than the family that you grew up in takes me 413 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,800 back to your parents. I'm, I'm curious, you said that 414 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,080 they were struggling kind of when they first gave you that 415 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,680 information. Did they share if it was 416 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,880 something that they intended to reveal to you at any point? 417 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,440 Was it something that they planned to keep secret? 418 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,000 They did, yeah. They shared what their thoughts 419 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,080 behind all of this were and essentially they informed me 420 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,600 that it was the doctor's advice to them to not say anything, 421 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,000 which they followed. However, there were basically 2 422 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:37,760 scenarios that they they deemed worthy of sharing the 423 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,600 information. The first was if either my 424 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,520 brother or I ever had any sort of medical issues that would 425 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,440 require them to say, you know what, they don't have the same 426 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,360 medical history as my dad does, knock on wood. 427 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,680 Thankfully, I never had any anything growing up or even as 428 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,120 an adult that required, at least it never required divulging that 429 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,160 information, or at least they didn't think they needed to. 430 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,680 The other would have been if some sort of technology came out 431 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,760 that would identify all of this. And sure enough, it did. 432 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,720 And yeah, they expressed to me that like in the early days of 433 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,200 23andMe and Ancestry coming out to the public, they'd see some 434 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,240 of these commercials or it would be in the news and they'd kind 435 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,200 of look at each other and be like the time, like the clock is 436 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,280 ticking, like this is going to happen at some point. 437 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,320 And yeah, in my case, my, my siblings randomly decided to get 438 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,160 me that DNA testing kit. And that was that was the moment 439 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,520 my parents said, yeah, we, we have to address this now. 440 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,680 And that's something as I think about like all of the different 441 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,880 parts of my story, them having that conversation with me and 442 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,280 sitting down with me to say, hey, if you take this test, you 443 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:08,520 know, you might be shocked. I I can't stress how valuable 444 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,920 and how important it was for them to to do that with me and 445 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:19,400 to get ahead of it because if I had found out through 23andMe 446 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:25,440 when they had opportunities to tell it to me themselves, that 447 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,880 would have been difficult for me to accept. 448 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,120 I can respect that. They didn't really know when to 449 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,960 share this news and their hand was forced. 450 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,000 And they said, all right, now's the time. 451 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,760 So that that was definitely a very key piece in terms of like 452 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,680 sitting with these emotions that I'm having. 453 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,040 And I'm asking like, should I be angry? 454 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,320 Should I be upset? And, you know, I can look at it 455 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,280 at it that way. And I think it would be valid if 456 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:58,680 I felt that way, but I, I asked myself, can I understand why 457 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,000 they did it this way? Can I make sense of it? 458 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,000 And even though I think some of the decisions were wrong, I can 459 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,720 understand why they chose the path they chose. 460 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,960 And you know, something I I say to a lot of the guests that I 461 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:19,240 talk about that I talked to on my own podcast is I don't think 462 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,040 it's fair to judge decisions from the past with the 463 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,800 information we have in from the present And back then. 464 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,600 I mean, it, it seems like parents just followed doctor's 465 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,160 orders and my parents were no different. 466 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,080 So I don't hold it against them. But yeah, I guess another 467 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:44,440 element here is as these facts were coming to light, there was 468 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,840 definitely a a little bit of friction, Not friction so much 469 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,920 as just a struggle, particularly with my dad, in the fact that 470 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,040 like, I was going to be open about this. 471 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,720 I was very clear up front, like this doesn't change anything. 472 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,160 Our relationship is not affected in any sort of negative way by 473 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,520 this. But I'm not going to keep this 474 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,520 under wraps. This is my story and I feel the 475 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,640 need to tell it. I almost felt like I had to 476 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:20,040 reintroduce myself. And while my parents were 477 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,120 accepting of that, it definitely made my dad in particular a bit 478 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,440 uncomfortable knowing that they held on to this for 30 plus 479 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,160 years and now it's going to be exposed. 480 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,440 And I think part of the beauty of how I view the situation now 481 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:43,480 is that we we got through sharing the story openly as one 482 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,040 collective unit. It's not like I was out telling, 483 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,280 you know, my people and my parents were forced to tell 484 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,960 their own people. We, we all did it together and 485 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,640 it ended up strengthening our bond, especially with me and my 486 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,400 dad knowing that he was definitely out of his comfort 487 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,360 zone putting this out there. But, you know, faced his fear 488 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,880 and now he talks about it as openly as I do. 489 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,760 So it's really been cool. It's been cool to watch, 490 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,440 particularly my dad's evolution around all of this, where before 491 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,040 we took the tests, he was like, I don't want to know the 492 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,760 results. Like I don't need to know them. 493 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,440 And I was like, if I know the results, there's no way I'm 494 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,520 keeping that from you. Just to see like where he was at 495 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,080 the beginning of the story to where he is now is really cool 496 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,960 and I'm really proud of how he has handled this whole part of 497 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,000 his life because it's part of his story too. 498 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,720 That's incredible. Really do identify with what you 499 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,760 were saying about. Once you had it, the 500 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,200 information, you had to tell it, you had to tell your story, you 501 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,600 had to reintroduce yourself. It's a whole new way of thinking 502 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,120 about yourself and and your identity. 503 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,920 I guess on that note, like you learned that you are Jewish, is 504 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,239 that a part of your identity that you have been interested in 505 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,360 exploring or not? I think the short answer there 506 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,440 is, it is. The longer answer is it's not 507 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,320 something that is at the top of my priority list of things to 508 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,639 explore with this. I will say in hindsight, like 509 00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:31,120 looking back on my friends as I was growing up and who I'm still 510 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,159 close with now, most of them are Jewish. 511 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,560 And I think that is telling of something because, you know, I 512 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,280 never knew I was Jewish when I was a kid, but I seem to have 513 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:48,360 gravitated to that crowd. So I, I, I find that to be 514 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,000 pretty fascinating. But outside of exploring what 515 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:56,800 that means for me and understanding Jewish history and 516 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:03,480 culture, I'm interested in it. But I I don't know that I've 517 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,920 been ready to really do the deep dive into all of that just yet. 518 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,720 You mentioned you know the importance of telling your story 519 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:15,120 and you also mentioned that you have a podcast. 520 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,080 So I imagine telling your story and telling other stories is 521 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,440 more at the top of your your priority list. 522 00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:25,160 Can you talk a little bit more about your podcast and and why 523 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,440 you started it and what your goal is? 524 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,840 After I had been expressing this new part of my life to the 525 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,720 people that mattered to me and telling the story over and over 526 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:42,720 to family and friends, I felt like the more I talked about it, 527 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:49,920 the healthier it felt. And from there, because I was 528 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,640 experiencing such new feelings and emotions, especially in 529 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,320 those early days of like just getting the results and not 530 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,960 really knowing what to do with it, the only thing I did know to 531 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:04,120 do was to write and to just jot down everything that was coming 532 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,800 to mind because I wanted to have a record of what this most 533 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,760 unusual time in my life was like and how I was thinking. 534 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:22,200 And so I ended up writing regularly in my journal and I'd 535 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,240 say a month or two had passed and I realized that, oh crap, 536 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:30,400 like I have 30,000 words here. This is a lot of content that 537 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,520 I'm committing to this. And in that moment, I was like, 538 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,040 wait a minute. Like I think there's something 539 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,560 bigger at play here. Like, am I? 540 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,440 Am I writing a book right now? So from there I tried to kind of 541 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,760 connect what my donor conceived discovery was like to other 542 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:55,000 areas of my life that felt significant and ultimately wrote 543 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,120 a book, much to my surprise. I never thought I was capable of 544 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,480 doing that, but before I knew it, I had a full book of, you 545 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,280 know, 5560 thousand words. So a little over a year ago is 546 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,800 when I published that also called Inconceivably Connected, 547 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,480 which is the name of the podcast as well. 548 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:20,640 But by putting my story out in that sort of format beyond just 549 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,360 to my close friends and family and acquaintances, really 550 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:28,560 putting it out to the entire world, it just felt freeing and 551 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,560 it felt healthy. It felt therapeutic. 552 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:38,680 And I I thought, OK, how can I extend this feeling to other 553 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,800 people who are experiencing the same sort of situation that I 554 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,640 am? And that's where the podcast 555 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,440 came in, where I thought, all right, if I can create a 556 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,680 platform for others to vocally express what they're going 557 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,680 through, I think that could be really useful. 558 00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:00,040 And it almost felt like my duty to to create that and to make 559 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,480 that space, even though I, you know, like we were saying before 560 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,600 recording, I am not tech savvy. I had never done anything like 561 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,400 this before. I just felt like it was too 562 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,920 important to not give it a fair shot. 563 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,360 And that's how the podcast was born. 564 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,760 I made a post on Reddit, on the Facebook forums and was just 565 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,120 curious to see, all right, how many other people out there are 566 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:26,680 interested in sharing their story? 567 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,960 And I was kind of joking with my wife. 568 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,760 I was like, how many people you think are going to respond to 569 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,200 this? And in my head, I'm like, maybe 570 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,600 I'll get four or five. And within the first like, 24 571 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:42,080 hours, I had over 30 responses. And that's when it really hit me 572 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:47,240 when I was like, OK, people are eager to talk about this and 573 00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:52,480 maybe some of these people don't have the outlet to do so in 574 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,360 their own lives, and this could be the area where they're able 575 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,960 to do that. So that was really the thinking 576 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,200 behind creating the podcast, which again, the Inconceivably 577 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,320 Connected podcast, It's very similar to DNA surprises, 578 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,360 one-on-one conversations, and it's turned into some of the 579 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,920 most fulfilling work that I have found myself doing. 580 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,480 And I, it was never on my radar that this would be the position 581 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:25,760 that I'm in, but it's beautiful, it's enlightening, it's in some 582 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,920 cases entertaining to hear the uniqueness of each and every 583 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,800 person's story because No2 donor conceived people's stories are 584 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,000 the same. We could hear an infinite amount 585 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,280 of them. And there will always be 586 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,760 something in each person's story that stands out as their own. 587 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,440 And I think even more than that, just seeing almost like the 588 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,720 before and the after of each guest that comes on, I can see 589 00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:54,880 that a lot of them are sometimes nervous in the beginning and by 590 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,480 the end they're like, whoa, I think I had a lot to get off my 591 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,360 chest and I think I just did like this feels good. 592 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,960 So when I see that in people, it just. 593 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,600 It encourages me to keep going, and I suspect you feel a similar 594 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,520 way. Absolutely. 595 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,720 I mean, I always say I started the podcast just as much for 596 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:23,280 myself as I did for others because there's something so 597 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,680 incredible about getting the opportunity to connect to people 598 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,480 that have this shared experience, which is fairly 599 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,880 common, but it's not one that everybody can relate to. 600 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,400 And so to, for myself to feel less alone and then to also 601 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,440 realize the impact that it has on people who are listening and 602 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,040 find something to identify with. And then also, yeah, the the 603 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,520 actual people that I'm speaking to every week to see that weight 604 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:56,120 come off and and see kind of the power and strength that comes 605 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,200 from telling your story is unlike anything I think I've 606 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,200 ever done before. I'd like to ask DCP who come on 607 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:09,040 the podcast kind of for their their take on the state of the 608 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,640 industry in terms of things that you would like to see changed 609 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,360 based off of your own experience or, or not changed. 610 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,080 Like do you have any thoughts in terms of the fertility industry 611 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:25,400 at large? Yeah, and I think a lot of my 612 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,400 thoughts are going to be rooted in what I've heard from other 613 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,360 people that I've I've spoken to because feel like I got pretty 614 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,200 lucky in this experience that I don't have medical known medical 615 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:45,160 issues. But I think most, most DCPS 616 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,080 would probably agree that getting rid of donor anonymity 617 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:54,520 is a good place to start. I think it's vital for so many 618 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,120 people to know their accurate medical history and really their 619 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,000 ancestral composition as well. Like it's important to know 620 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,680 where we come from culturally and yeah, and, and what sort of 621 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,920 lineage we carry. I think there's a lot of work to 622 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,800 be done legislatively. The fact that we hear stories 623 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,320 sometimes of siblings dating each other or having to even 624 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,560 worry about that, like accidental incest. 625 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,400 We hear all about fertility fraud where doctors are are 626 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,840 swapping out their own sperm and swapping in their own sperm for 627 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,080 the donors. There's, there's so many messy 628 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,240 and dark parts of what some of us experience. 629 00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:46,560 And it's, I think until we address all of that, we need to 630 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,400 be amplifying as many donor conceived voices as possible, 631 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:54,160 which in terms of a mission behind the existence of my 632 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,520 podcast, like my whole job is, is raising the volume and 633 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,040 elevating the voices that need to be heard. 634 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:05,000 Because no one should have to go through some of the things that 635 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,240 I've heard people in our community having to go through. 636 00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:10,720 So yeah, I think that's a good starting place. 637 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,440 Wipeout, donor anonymity, fertility fraud needs to be 638 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,960 punished in a, in a justified way. 639 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,600 And it's, it just feels like it should be a basic right to know 640 00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,640 who we're connected to. These, these connections are too 641 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,880 meaningful. There's too much to learn by 642 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:35,400 exploring them and understanding them to deprive people of the 643 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,200 chance to do that. So that's what I would say. 644 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:44,840 What advice do you have for a parent who is keeping adna 645 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,360 surprise from their child? You have to tell them. 646 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,560 You just have to. And that doesn't mean you have 647 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:59,640 to do it immediately, but you have to do it as soon as any 648 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:06,000 viable moment arises to keep this information from your 649 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,920 children. It keeps them from themselves, 650 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:14,360 from understanding who they are at their core in some key ways. 651 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,120 And you just can't deprive your child of that. 652 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,280 You can't. I think a lot of parents, 653 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,120 especially from my generation, I was born in 1987, you know, they 654 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,640 were misguided. Let's be real. 655 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,680 They were misguided by by doctors to not tell their kids 656 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,320 about this. But as soon as DNA test testing 657 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,320 became a thing, that guidance kind of goes out the window and 658 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,240 you have to readjust your game plan. 659 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:50,040 And I think even beyond giving your child the chance to know 660 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,960 who they are on a deeper level, it's also gonna set you free. 661 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,880 Because whether you realize it or not, you're holding on to 662 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,000 something. You're suppressing really vital 663 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,000 information for your offspring, your children, who you're 664 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,960 raising, and you carry that with you. 665 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,560 And that affects you whether you think it does or not. 666 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,280 And I remember very distinctly when my parents first divulged 667 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:24,040 this information to me and they, they saw that I didn't react in, 668 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,840 for lack of a better word, in any sort of negative way. 669 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,560 I could see the weight shed from their shoulders. 670 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,160 I could see their spirits lifting by coming clean. 671 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:43,720 And I think that's not to say that by sharing this with your 672 00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:48,360 children, there's not gonna be blowback from it, but your 673 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,920 child's gonna respect you a whole lot more if they'd hear 674 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,760 this news from their parents rather than from someone else or 675 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:01,160 from a corporation like 23 MA. So that would be my advice. 676 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,680 That's really good advice. And what advice do you have for 677 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,520 someone who just discovered that they're donor conceived? 678 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:12,560 I think there's two pieces there. 679 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,600 I think the first is give yourself grace. 680 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,960 Move at whatever speed feels appropriate to you. 681 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,360 Some people like to dive right into all of this, and that's not 682 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,160 the way that everybody handles this situation. 683 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:35,320 If you need to move nice and slow, move nice and slow. 684 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,680 This is serious information and a serious part of who you are, 685 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,600 and you don't want to to rush through any of that. 686 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,920 I think you want to feel every emotion that that comes along 687 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,920 with this, good and bad. And I think it's also really 688 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,400 important for people to recognize that they're not alone 689 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:02,600 in this. It can feel very isolating when 690 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,040 you discover this, especially at a later stage in life. 691 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,360 There's support out there. There are other people who have 692 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,760 had the same lived experience that you can lean on. 693 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:19,600 Don't try to conquer this or sit with this by yourself. 694 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,160 You do not have to do that. There's other people that have 695 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:26,480 gone on this journey already that can share words of wisdom 696 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:33,320 and advice and don't shy away from that except those wise 697 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,640 Nuggets that people in our community have to offer. 698 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,680 You may not think that you need them in certain moments, but 699 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,040 they'll come in handy down the line. 700 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:51,600 And I think the last thing I would say is for those who find 701 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:57,520 themselves in a position to tell your story, and I phrase it that 702 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:04,160 way because I, I think many of us face some obstacles and 703 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:11,280 challenges that maybe prevent us from from putting the full truth 704 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,840 out there in the ways that we want to. 705 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,760 But I think everybody should be working on a path towards 706 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,760 telling the story and and owning it because it's yours. 707 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,040 And other people may not sit well with that, but it's not 708 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,680 their place to tell you what you can share and what you can't. 709 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,240 When you're ready to tell it, tell it. 710 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,440 Because that's how we all come together is by sharing these 711 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,600 stories. Well said, Nick, thank you so 712 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,120 much for joining me today and for sharing your story. 713 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,360 It's been a pleasure to talk to you today and I'm excited to 714 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,720 listen to the Inconceivably Connected podcast and hope that 715 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:54,160 others will check it out too because it is so important to 716 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,760 hear and share all of our stories. 717 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,200 Thank you. Thank you. 718 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,640 Thank you. Thanks again to Nick for sharing 719 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,200 his story. If you're interested in checking 720 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,320 out Nick's book or his podcast, I've linked them in the show 721 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,880 notes. And if you have adna surprise 722 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,040 that you'd like to share, submit your story at dnasurprises.com. 723 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,280 And for early add free access to episodes, join me over on 724 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,080 patreon@patreon.com/DNA surprises. 725 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:28,080 Until next time, DNA Surprises is hosted, produced and edited 726 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:33,240 by me, Alexis Oursalt. It is mixed and mastered by Josh 727 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,920 Oursalt of Siren Recording Studios.