1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,680 I'm not coming at anybody. I'm not trying to hurt anybody. 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,400 I'm not trying to blame anybody. I'm just trying to say this is 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:12,840 life and it happened, and now here I am, you know, So I don't 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:20,800 know that my story coming out has truly hurt anybody over 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,040 here, the key players. Because I would like to think 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,600 that my book has freed my raised father from having to carry 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,080 those secrets anymore. And I hope that it has freed my 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:37,320 biological father from having to, you know, exit his lifetime 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:40,920 having to say, well, I didn't reach out to her. 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,960 I didn't talk to that girl. I didn't give at the time of 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,640 day. You know, he did sit down with 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,680 me. And if that's all I ever get, he 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,520 at least can know that he gave me that right? 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,240 Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that delves into the 15 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,920 world of unexpected DNA discoveries. 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:05,400 I'm your host, Alexis ourselves. In July 2021, my life took a 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,280 surprising turn when I found out that I'm an N P/E, a person who 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,120 has experienced a non paternal event. 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,680 In other words, my biological father isn't who I thought he 20 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,680 was. Join me as we explore the 21 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,800 stories of NP, ES, adoptees, and donor conceived people and their 22 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,600 families. Get ready to unravel the 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,720 astonishing journeys that begin with a simple DNA test. 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,520 This is DNA Surprises, hands down. 25 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,840 One of my favorite things about hosting this podcast is the 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,200 connections that I've made within this community. 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,800 From keeping in touch with guests to hosting the DNA 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,120 Surprise Retreat, to the special group of folks who join our 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,840 third Thursday meetups, I'm so grateful for the connections 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,680 that I've formed. In this week's episode, I'm 31 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,680 joined by Jill, who first appeared on the podcast in 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,480 February of last year. She has since released her 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,800 second memoir, which is focused on her DNA Surprise. 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,400 She joined me to discuss all that's happened since she first 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,400 appeared on the podcast. We discussed some of my burning 36 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,480 questions around her book, When You Shake the Family Tree, as 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,720 well as where she's currently at with her biological family. 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,200 You can find your copy of Jill's book at Just Being jill.com. 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,720 Thanks for joining me again, Jill. 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,520 Welcome to a special update episode of DNA Surprises. 41 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,600 I am joined today by Jill, who joined me. 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,280 Gosh, was it a year ago 2. Years ago, last February, 1 year 43 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,040 ago. Of course, we probably recorded 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,480 it a few months prior to the actual release, but it released 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,840 one year ago. That's right. 46 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:51,640 And when we last spoke, Jill was writing a book. 47 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,920 She'd already written one, and then she was going to write 48 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:56,880 another. In the process of writing 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,880 another specifically about her DNA surprise. 50 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:07,080 And she has since released the book and there are even more 51 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,080 updates since we last spoke. And I'm really excited to get 52 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,600 into it. I've read the book, I have tons 53 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,000 of questions, and Jill joins us regularly on our third Thursday 54 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,920 call. So I've heard bits about the 55 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:25,640 things that have happened in her story as it's progressed, but 56 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:28,680 the book really does dive a lot deeper into some of the things 57 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,080 that have happened. And so I'm really excited to to 58 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,120 dive in. Thank you for joining me again, 59 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,200 Jill. Thank you so much for having me 60 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,560 back. It's such a pleasure to be able 61 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,440 to come back and give you and your followers an update and 62 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,600 talk about what's happened. Yes, well, so let's just jump in 63 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,560 what happened after we last spoke. 64 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,720 Well, interesting you should say that because I of course 65 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,480 listened to our episode this morning just to kind of give 66 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,920 myself a refresher. And one of the things that we 67 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,520 did leave off with was the hopes that my book would be coming out 68 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,640 very soon after that episode launched or perhaps even when 69 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,520 that episode was launching last February. 70 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:11,160 And I realized, wow, that is exactly about the time I sat on 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,960 my book like an egg. I had to take a big pause and 72 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,720 break away from the project. That's the thing with writing 73 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,480 memoir is that, you know, it's such an emotional roller coaster 74 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,520 that there were many times throughout the project where I 75 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,400 would be in this big time writing mode and get a whole 76 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,480 bunch done. And then I'd hit something that 77 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,240 really struck a nerve and I would have to walk away for some 78 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,080 time. And sometimes those that could 79 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,440 be a couple days, sometimes that turned into a couple of months. 80 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,760 And after our podcast, I can't remember a particular episode 81 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,240 that might have sent me back. But for some reason, I really 82 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,840 started procrastinating and I put the project away for a 83 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:52,000 little bit. And then before you know it, 84 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,360 spring was springing and I was like, Oh my gosh, I've got to 85 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,600 get this done. I had found somebody to help me 86 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,920 publish the book and they had given me a bit of a time frame 87 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,480 like, OK, this is when it could happen. 88 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:08,160 So I I treated myself as a second time memoir writer to a 89 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,560 lake house property for for four days where I locked myself in 90 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,440 sign. It was in this beautiful 91 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,200 lakefront community, but it was April here in Western New York. 92 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,080 So that's still quite a bit chilly and yucky for us. 93 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,200 And I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote until that book was 94 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,680 done. And right about that exact time, 95 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,400 I was continuing to work with my therapist and come to find out 96 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,440 the thing that was holding me back was I was afraid to write 97 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:42,440 the ending of my story. I was afraid in whatever tone I 98 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,440 ended that book would be what I would be willing or calling in 99 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,160 for myself or kind of putting, you know, a hard line in my 100 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,720 story. And then feel I felt like I was 101 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,400 going to have this feeling like it was coming to an end or that 102 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,960 was going to be it. And it took my therapist to walk 103 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,160 me through that and say, so you're the author, you get to 104 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,760 write the ending, you're going to leave it nice and open-ended, 105 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,880 and that's going to invite in whatever is supposed to come. 106 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,080 And so when I took that four day hiatus from the world and 107 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,920 finished writing, that's exactly what I did. 108 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,320 I made sure that I wrote the story, you know, very detailed 109 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,920 to what was going on with all of the episodes that had been 110 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,800 happening, but also very open-ended so that there wasn't 111 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,440 closure or anything definitive. And so it got finished late last 112 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,200 spring of 2024. The editing process started 113 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,840 happening through the summer of 2024, got submitted to the 114 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:44,080 publishing company in the fall, and on December 12th of 2024, 115 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,080 When You Shake the Family Tree finally came out and hit the 116 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:54,680 world. Yay, congratulations. 117 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,000 That's just a remarkable feat. Not one, but two memoirs. 118 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,880 And I know when you were last on the podcast, I think kind of 119 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:09,760 where we left off was this rejection from your biological 120 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,680 father, kind of feeling like it was open-ended, but leaning 121 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,720 towards rejection. And I'm, I'm not going to ask 122 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,440 you to give the whole book away because as I said, she does dive 123 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,840 much deeper in in the book. But what has happened with your 124 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,000 biological father since we last spoke? 125 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,120 I would love to say that we have this wonderful friendship and, 126 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,680 and growing desire to get to know each other on a deeper 127 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,280 level, but unfortunately that is not the case. 128 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,480 I have really gotten nowhere as far as building relationship 129 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,120 with my biological father. It has been a very, very slow 130 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,640 process. His family has been wonderful. 131 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,320 They have been attempting to, you know, reach out on a holiday 132 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,800 and say, hey, you guys can come if you'd like. 133 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,280 You know, I, Chris, this past Christmas, an aunt and a cousin 134 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,560 reached out to a gathering that he was not at, but you know, 135 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,040 some of the family members were. But I I dare say that 136 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,720 disappointingly, there really has not been any progress with 137 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,880 my biological father and we are 3 1/2 years out now. 138 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,480 But I will add that I do feel like there have been some small 139 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,320 baby steps because this past summer my husband actually was 140 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,160 at an event that my biological father was at. 141 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,000 And of course he was like, Oh my God, I'm here and your 142 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,280 biological father's here. And I was like, you had better 143 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,000 go up to him and introduce yourself. 144 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:41,600 So he did, and they kind of chatted for a little bit and I 145 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,760 don't know if meeting my husband put more of a understanding of 146 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,840 the fact that I'm like a real person with like this family in 147 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,680 this package. So that was in the fall. 148 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:56,840 In this past Christmas, we got a Christmas card and it was 149 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,360 addressed to my husband and myself. 150 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,520 And I had gotten a Christmas card, as I talk about in the 151 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,520 book, the year prior to myself. But this year, it was to my 152 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,440 husband and I, and it actually included a gift card in some 153 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,760 very kind words. And I was beside myself. 154 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,520 I did feel like it was a major step, like major progress to 155 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,160 address the Christmas card now to my husband and myself, like 156 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,520 acknowledging that I'm a woman with a family and the gift 157 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,440 inside. I mean, I don't even care if it 158 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,520 was like a little piece of paper at this point. 159 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,680 It was a gift. And for me, it was his way of 160 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:37,520 saying how difficult all of this has been. 161 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,080 But that doesn't mean he's not thinking and, you know, wishing 162 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,120 he had the way forward, if you will. 163 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,400 And at the end of his gesture, it said something to the effect 164 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,480 of because he goes to Florida for the winter. 165 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,440 And it said something to the effect of maybe we can get 166 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,120 together upon my return or something to that effect. 167 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,920 And I try not to hang my hat on those words because he has said 168 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,400 things like that in the past. But that coupled with the fact 169 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,120 that his family has been trying and making an attempt, I do feel 170 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,000 in my heart of hearts that something will transpire. 171 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,200 I don't know that it'll be anything enormous and epic, but 172 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,240 I do feel like maybe more conversations will be had at 173 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,400 some point. One of the things I was really 174 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,760 struck by in your book is is when you share some of the 175 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,160 things that he wrote to you and that you wrote to him. 176 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,920 And I think sometimes we paint these rejections as very black 177 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,400 and white and like, it's a blatant, like, I don't want to 178 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,520 talk to you, stay out of my life, that kind of thing. 179 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,240 He's pretty cordial in his communication with you. 180 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:55,320 And I'm curious if that has made the rejection harder in some 181 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,040 ways because it's like the doors always a little bit open, but 182 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,880 then it's it's taken a long time to get to this point. 183 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:04,640 Agreed. Agreed. 184 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,120 And that's a great question because obviously in writing the 185 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,760 story and then when you go through editing, you're like 186 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,360 rereading the story 100,000 times. 187 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,600 And every time I would reread those letters that were from a 188 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,760 year or two prior, they had like so much hope to them. 189 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,280 Like I was like, wow, something's really going to 190 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,040 happen here. These are very hopeful. 191 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,720 And I, of course, convinced myself that he said those things 192 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,920 because he meant those things. And then it's that inner critic 193 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,760 that comes out after we say them that tears us down and sets us 194 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,320 back, right. So I would convince myself like, 195 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,000 OK, he wouldn't have said those things if he didn't really mean 196 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,000 those things. So somewhere deep down inside 197 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,960 there, there is a man who's just as curious as I am, and it's 198 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,600 just going to take longer for him to scratch his way to the 199 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,840 surface. And I agree. 200 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:59,680 In fact, I agree so much that I have kind of described my book 201 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,640 is a love story because it does feel like that, you know, it's 202 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,840 not like this big, you know, grandiose love story about 203 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,480 father meeting a daughter. But just the way we communicated 204 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,360 back and forth, there was just like so much hope for a loving 205 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,160 relationship to bloom. So I know exactly what you mean 206 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,280 when you say, and I do use the, you know, the things that are 207 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,640 quoted in there are verbatim the way that it all unfolded. 208 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,920 I wrote in real time with real emotion. 209 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,080 Like I said, sometimes I had to walk away from it, but I didn't 210 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,400 want to tell the story in hindsight. 211 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,120 I very much wanted to tell it as it was happening because it was 212 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,440 important for me. One of my biggest goals as a 213 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,360 writer for that book was I wanted all of our people in our 214 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:52,320 community to understand that it is a roller coaster. 1 chapter 215 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,560 sounds like a love story and it's beautiful. 216 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:56,520 And I'm sharing these letters back and forth. 217 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,040 And the next chapter I'm taking a complete nosedive and and 218 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:01,840 spiraling and I don't know what to think. 219 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,280 And won't somebody love me and won't somebody choose me? 220 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,240 And then the next chapter I'm back up again. 221 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,760 And I really thought that it was important to do this journey 222 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,800 that justice. And even at the end of the book, 223 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,000 it's the same feeling. You just don't know what's 224 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,120 around the next corner. You just have to be open for. 225 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,520 In fact, one of my favorite lines or things I say in the 226 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,920 book is I'm having a conversation with my therapist 227 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,360 and we talk about, you know, does it ever get any better? 228 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,760 And she says to me, no, Jill, it doesn't get better, but it does 229 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,160 get different. And I mean, that's just is the 230 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,000 epitome of this journey, right? I'm sure you can relate to that. 231 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,760 Absolutely. And I was also really struck by, 232 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,680 I mean, he doesn't say he's kind of a man of few words, but 233 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,600 reading between the lines and even just reading what he does 234 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:01,240 say, it sounds like he was pretty profoundly affected by 235 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,800 you reaching out. And this information too, Has 236 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:12,320 writing this book giving you any sense of empathy for his side of 237 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,160 the story? I think definitely his, not only 238 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,320 his, but everybody's, my raised father's, all the players 239 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,600 involved. You know, I, I, I'm pretty 240 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,080 convinced that more people knew the story than are letting on. 241 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:35,120 However, I'm also aware of the fact that it's my perspective, 242 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,280 right, that's driving my story in creating the story in my 243 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,400 head. And that there is in fact a 244 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,280 chance that many of these people had no clue, including him, you 245 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,640 know, and even if he had, let's just say he had an inkling or a 246 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,320 clue, 50 years is a lot of time to go by to not be thinking 247 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,840 about something, to really, to really be thinking about it the 248 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,040 way that I am, right? So I just, I just have 249 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,160 compassion for the different perspectives here. 250 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,480 I truly do. I and I truly, and I mean that 251 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,800 with all of my heart. I think a lot of that also comes 252 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,880 from you and your podcasts and all of the people out there and 253 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,840 hearing so many variables and so many perspectives and sides of 254 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,000 stories to understand. You know, it is, Can you 255 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,560 imagine? I can't imagine somebody coming 256 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,280 to me with this news. Now I, my husband and I have 257 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,120 joked, you know, like if this he was in the service, what would 258 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,400 happen if somebody stepped forward and said that, you know, 259 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,800 he was their father. And I was like, Oh my God, I 260 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,000 would be dying to meet her. And my daughters were like, Oh, 261 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,000 my God, we would want to be, you know, And it's like, but we have 262 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,720 to remember. But it's also different times. 263 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,360 And it's just not like it was when our parents were younger 264 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,880 and everything was a secret or swept under the rug. 265 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,080 It's just things are so different. 266 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,320 And it's so hard to remember that when you're trying to be 267 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,960 respectful of what is happening in somebody else's mind. 268 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,520 Absolutely. One of the things, you know, 269 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaking of this empathy and compassion for everyone in the 270 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:16,120 story is your book really does embrace that dialectical 271 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:21,040 thinking where more than one thing can be true or two things 272 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,000 can be true at once. I know you had a very 273 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:32,560 complicated your father, you're raised father was abusive. 274 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,240 And then to read in the book that he actually didn't. 275 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,760 And hopefully this isn't too much of A spoiler, so I'll take 276 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,440 it out if you want me to. But that he didn't think that 277 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:49,680 any of his children were biologically related to him was 278 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,000 really heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking to read 279 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,040 that. And obviously, it does not 280 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,840 excuse anything that he did or any of the choices that he's 281 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,839 made in his life. But just having that it, it 282 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,280 gave, it made me feel compassion for him where the first time 283 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,720 that we talked, I really just felt anger towards him, you 284 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,960 know, for, for abusing his children. 285 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,920 And then to learn that maybe he was carrying a lot of pain 286 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,240 around the fact that, you know, he had raised these children 287 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,520 that your mother had told him, like this child isn't yours. 288 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,960 And then the child was your brother, Eric mentioned in the 289 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:36,560 book is his child, but he'd gone his whole life not believing. 290 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,320 That was just so painful. Hearing you, hearing you tell me 291 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,880 that part of the story bag is literally sending shivers of my 292 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,840 spine. And you're right, I try. 293 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,880 I do try to. I don't try to. 294 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:56,080 I do have compassion because I can't imagine being so tattered 295 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,360 and torn in my soul that somebody could tell me those 296 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,080 things about my children and at the time make the, you know, 297 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:04,800 choice. That I'm not going to tell these 298 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,400 children because they need me and I'm their father and I don't 299 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,360 want to hurt them because their mother is already hurting all of 300 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:16,640 us. And to think, I can't imagine. 301 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,720 I can't imagine looking at my own children who I believe are 302 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,200 mine. I mean I gave birth to them, but 303 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,080 I mean of being a male and thinking that. 304 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:32,120 And and like I say in the book, I I couldn't understand why, you 305 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:35,120 know, like when I emancipated myself when I was younger, my 306 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,120 parents signed right off like I like nothing. 307 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,520 Okay, bye, bye. And when my father was estranged 308 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,680 from my oldest brother, who is his clone, that he could be so 309 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,280 far removed. But of course, if you had had 310 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,680 those seeds planted in your head, I, I, I do, I have a lot 311 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,680 of compassion for him. He was an alcoholic who was 312 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,160 trying to drink away all of those feelings and those truths 313 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,840 and those lies. And you're right, it does not 314 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,840 justify how he treated me as a child, but it certainly makes me 315 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,720 understand. Yeah, yeah. 316 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,040 So well said. Well, I think the overarching 317 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,280 theme of your book is breaking generational cycles. 318 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:24,000 We don't have to adhere to the patterns that have preceded us 319 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,480 in our lives. And this is something that we 320 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,520 talk about a lot in our community and I highlighted in 321 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,280 the book here, and this is in the introduction, you say I have 322 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,480 forever been agitated by the phrase. 323 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,400 It runs in the family as if it were simply fact, a life 324 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,320 sentence with no room for change. 325 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,520 Yes, it runs in my family. And I've decided this is where 326 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,080 it runs out. I love that. 327 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,040 Why do you think that this theme of generational cycles, 328 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,960 generational shame, pattern breaking is so resonant in our 329 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,880 community? Absolutely. 330 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,240 So, you know, The thing is, is even when I released my first 331 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:15,960 memoir, which was prior to my DNA discovery, I was astounded 332 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,320 by the number of people who reached out to me and, you know, 333 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,760 held up the me to hand when talking about abuse and domestic 334 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,080 violence and lies and cover ups. And people I would have never 335 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,040 guessed, you know, from my community or my own family 336 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,760 reaching out and saying, yes, this happened. 337 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:39,240 And oh, my goodness, this that. And when I started writing my 338 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:46,240 DNA memoir, I had no idea that what was really bestowed upon me 339 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,560 was a quest of ancestral healing. 340 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,800 And I mean that quite literally. The irony of this whole 341 00:20:53,800 --> 00:21:00,720 situation is my grandmother who raised me, who is my person, the 342 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,800 best person who was ever in my life for me for my first 3 343 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,160 decades of life is not even my grandmother. 344 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,960 But the healing that I am doing is for her because she lived 345 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:21,520 through her own NPE experience. She lived through terrible, 346 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,520 terrible things as a wife and as a mother and as a sister. 347 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,320 And as I began to kind of heal and process everything that was 348 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:37,920 happening to me, I felt like I was paying homage to my 349 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,960 grandmother, who had been suppressed and unable to heal 350 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,240 from all of these things. I mean, to the point that I was 351 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,600 like, literally going to, you know, the cemetery and praying 352 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,560 to her and saying, like, I'm doing this for us, I'm doing 353 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,520 this for my children, this, this, this stops here kind of 354 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,000 business. And it just felt so important 355 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,560 and so liberating. And I think that, and I'm not 356 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,840 that's meant to say that everybody's going to go digging 357 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,600 and find like all these family, family secrets. 358 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,520 But in my. Case There were a bunch. 359 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,240 There are a bunch that are not even mentioned in the new book 360 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,200 because they're not my story to tell. 361 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,560 But I feel like it's just like what we said about the other 362 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,400 things in that, you know, it's what makes us human when we when 363 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,720 we see that other people and other families have these same 364 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,920 dynamics. The difference is our generation 365 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,600 is concerned about healing. We're concerned about being 366 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,000 vocal and stopping things that, you know, are of no good for us 367 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,000 and the future generations. And so we are willing to to say 368 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,640 what what is call a spade a spade and say let's stop it, 369 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,200 let's heal it, let's forgive it, let's move on from it. 370 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,760 And thank God for that. Thank God for that, you know. 371 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,920 Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's so many of these people 372 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,800 that I speak to are committed to not perpetuating secrets and 373 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,040 shame. And the fact that that was 374 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,600 basically the theme of your book made absolute sense to me 375 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:18,000 because that is the overarching theme of of what we live and and 376 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,840 what we hope to stop. I mean, there is even a chapter 377 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,440 in the book. And again, I, I don't want to 378 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,280 give huge spoilers to you, but you probably recall reading the 379 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,400 chapter where I throw myself under the bus about something, 380 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,120 you know, shaky in my own marriage. 381 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,480 And, you know, I had to go to my husband for permission to share 382 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,520 that chapter. And I had to have a conversation 383 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,440 with my grown adult daughters about what was going to be in 384 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,640 there. And I could get choked up just 385 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,440 thinking about it right now. But just writing that chapter 386 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,440 elicited family conversations that needed to be had. 387 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,320 And I'm so proud of myself for having those conversations and 388 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,520 for helping other people to see what those conversations can do 389 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,480 for moving forward. And I hope, I hope that being so 390 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,880 honest about my own life also shows my parents that I 391 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,200 understand. Yeah, right. 392 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,800 It's it's normalizing what it is to be human. 393 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,600 Exactly. I mean, when we just can't think 394 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,120 that it can't happen to us because it can't. 395 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,520 I didn't want to just preach, OK, You know, let's tell the 396 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,520 truth. Let's all just talk about it and 397 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,560 heal from it without saying, hey, look, I had to do some of 398 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,880 my own healing and forgiveness work within my own family 399 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,960 construct. You know, nobody, nobody gets a 400 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,840 free pass. No, I'm going to go through 401 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,440 something. Right. 402 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:50,480 The next question that I, I really wanted to ask you was, of 403 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,600 course, the, and this isn't selfish, but you've talked about 404 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,600 like listening to podcasts and hearing these stories. 405 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:04,000 And one of the things and, and really that your story is not 406 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,240 that big of a deal kind of in the grand scheme of things. 407 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:14,080 But one of the things which I want to say is not true story is 408 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,200 a big deal in your life. But I know exactly what you mean 409 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:23,680 is, is it's common. It is common, It's not unique, 410 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,960 you know, and, and, and one of the things that you mentioned 411 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,640 was specifically that the way that you were conceived by a 412 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,840 neighbor, basically somebody that you knew in in your life as 413 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,560 a child is actually a relatively common scenario. 414 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,320 And I actually like the way that you put that. 415 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,000 Like my story isn't that big of a deal because again, you're 416 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,960 normalizing what it is to be human. 417 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,520 These things happen. It's not great for us to find 418 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,160 out this way. And but at the same time, we're 419 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,240 not alone when we. Go through it exactly. 420 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,960 More common than we think, correct? 421 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,280 Yeah. So one of the things that you 422 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:08,120 you said around that kind of section, though, was that some 423 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:14,240 people have said that your suspicions lessened the blow 424 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,880 quote, lessened the blow of your discovery. 425 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,200 Because you had always kind kind of wondered since your mom made 426 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:29,080 that sort of angry proclamation and then walked it back, that 427 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,880 the fact that you maybe always wondered lessened the blow of 428 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,920 your discovery. And I'm curious if you agree 429 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,880 with that, do you think that it it was less devastating to you 430 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,480 because it was a question in the back of your mind? 431 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,200 That's a loaded question. I guess being 3 1/2 years out 432 00:26:54,200 --> 00:27:00,320 now, I could definitely say wholeheartedly that it did not 433 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,360 lessen the blow to know my world was flipped upside down, inside 434 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,480 out, right side up, as I say in the book, and it's still on the 435 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,160 spiral or tilt. So no, it didn't lessen the 436 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,400 blow. I appreciate that I had the 437 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,360 inkling in hindsight because had my mother not said that or gave 438 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,240 me a name that day, I probably would have never had the 439 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,320 suspicions, right? So the fact that that seed was 440 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:34,560 planted helped, but it didn't lessen the blow because the 441 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:42,400 identity crisis is so real and palpable that it didn't even 442 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,000 matter. I mean, I think there are there 443 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,440 are points in the story where I talk about the fact that I get 444 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,840 that information when I'm little. 445 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,840 But as I'm growing up and living next door to these people, I 446 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,440 never once like looked out the window and was like, Gee, could 447 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,840 that be my family? That's the people my mom was 448 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,560 talking about. I never even made that 449 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,280 connection. And even later in life, when I 450 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,880 like joked with a cousin when I saw them at a party, I'm like, 451 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,520 Hey, you know, you, you could be related to me. 452 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,480 Like, I'm like thinking of like, you know, like distant cousins. 453 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,960 I'm not thinking like related to me, like, oh, your grandparents 454 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,600 are my freaking grandparents, right? 455 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,560 Like totally. I did not understand it when I 456 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,480 was given the information, therefore it did not. 457 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,000 It did nothing more than leave an itch. 458 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,400 Yes, but I would definitely say that I couldn't believe like 459 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,760 even when I go to my brother's that I was raised with, right? 460 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,200 And they're like, wait a minute, we kind of thought you already 461 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,160 knew that, you know, and you know, no, I didn't. 462 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,960 And then I think about the conversation that I had to have 463 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,440 with my older brother when he found out that my dad didn't 464 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,840 even think he was his dad. And I had to talk that through 465 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,400 with him. You know what I mean? 466 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,280 Like, that's also an identity crisis and. 467 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,680 It's. Like holy cow, you know this is 468 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,200 what 1 lie can do, or three lies in our case, right? 469 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,520 And again, we had the factor of we did have a an NPE brother who 470 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,120 was a known NPE. So if his was such a public 471 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,560 thing, why would we really think that about ourselves? 472 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,800 You know, No, it did not lessen. It didn't lessen the blow, but 473 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,080 it prepared me for the hit. Oh, that's such a good way of 474 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,400 putting it. I was really curious about that 475 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:39,080 because in talking to so many people, there are many ways that 476 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,920 we arrive to our DNA surprises. There's people like me, I did 477 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,400 not know, completely surprised, but I agree with you. 478 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,320 And you know, maybe somebody else listening out there might 479 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,720 feel differently too, but getting the actual results, 480 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:02,080 getting that confirmation is very different than having some 481 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,360 possibility float in your mind. Absolutely. 482 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,480 Because even after I got my results right, I did so many 483 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,120 mental gymnastics to say that's not real, that even though I'm 484 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,440 holding it in my hand on my phone, I can see the results. 485 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,320 I was still making it not add up. 486 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,280 And I can only imagine that when you get that information and 487 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,280 there is no confirmation, it's just kind of a throwaway thing 488 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,080 from and in your case, from somebody that's not necessarily 489 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,160 a reliable narrator. It's easy to dismiss it, make 490 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,880 other things make sense. Like you said, your brother was 491 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,200 an NPE, like if, if he was an NPE and we knew, obviously I 492 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,680 would know if I was, it's really easy. 493 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,440 So I feel like that, that idea of, of having it in your mind, 494 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,640 lessen the flow. I, I just, when I read that, I 495 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,360 was like, gosh, that that seems invalidating to the experience 496 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,480 that you've had. Yeah, true. 497 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,360 And and at different points, I probably would have answered 498 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,440 that question differently, to be honest with you, because there 499 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,880 are some there. I guess it's almost like not 500 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,560 survivor's guilt, but guilt. Like sometimes when I hear 501 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,880 stories such as yours where people that didn't have a 502 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,600 freaking inkling, I kind of like tell myself, well, geez, you 503 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,880 should be thankful. At least you kind of had a hunch 504 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,720 buried weight, even if it was buried deep, deep inside and you 505 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,360 didn't want to believe it, it was kind of there. 506 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,760 At least your mother kind of gave you that seed, right? 507 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,760 But then if you think too about we Fast forward in my book a 508 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,840 little bit more where I do end up now I've populated to the 509 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,920 family tree of my next door neighbors. 510 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,680 OK, I know because my mother had given me the name. 511 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,160 Like, OK, there's no doubt about it, this story is real, you 512 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,680 know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then, then I get to the 513 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,040 point where I do decide I'm going to ask my biological 514 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,360 father for an actual paternity test. 515 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,880 I work through that with my therapist as well. 516 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,200 And I'm thinking the whole time that I'm asking him for this 517 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,720 paternity test that I'm doing it because he needs it, right? 518 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,440 Like I'm the one who saw the ancestry results. 519 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,720 He's not on ancestry. So he doesn't even see that I 520 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,520 connected to his tree. Now, I did show his sons who 521 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,480 could have very well told him like we saw it, you know, she's 522 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:24,240 there, but he was not connected to me exactly in any way, shape 523 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,360 or form. So I, I request this paternity 524 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,000 test thinking maybe he'll be able to really embrace me more 525 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,240 if he can really just see it in black and white. 526 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,400 And then, you know, my therapist says those words to me, which 527 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,360 is, Jill, did you ever think that you needed the paternity 528 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,040 test? Did you ever stop to think for a 529 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,480 second that that piece of paper is going to be the only thing 530 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,440 that is actually going to show your actual birth father? 531 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,840 It's going to be the only evidence of who your father is 532 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,040 in real life. And I was like holy shit she is 533 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,960 100% right. This. 534 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,800 Yes I did want it for him, but I think I wanted and needed it for 535 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,760 me even more. That paper is like gold. 536 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,920 Yeah, I think that that's something that that many in our 537 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:19,160 community can resonate with the need for that proof that that 538 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,800 paper, that acknowledgement. I mean, you hear a lot of people 539 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,840 get their birth certificates updated and things like that 540 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:31,720 because it's just so, so important to have that evidence. 541 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,120 I mean, I, I talk about that too. 542 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,640 It's been on my To Do List for a while. 543 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,920 But to really dig in and get my birth certificate updated 544 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,120 because for me it's the only evidence. 545 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,880 It's the only thing that would tie me to my biological father. 546 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,160 Because if you do any other sort of Pi work or something on the 547 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,840 Internet, my dad that raised me is the one I grew up with and is 548 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,760 how you know that is who it's going to look like. 549 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,440 I'm biologically related. To and I think about it for 550 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,560 historical sake, right? I mean, not asking for like, get 551 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,120 your name off my birthday, you know? 552 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,639 This is what I'm. Talking about like moving 553 00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:13,360 forward in history, I'm not part of this family. 554 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,639 I'm actually part of this family and let the record show what is 555 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,000 right. Absolutely. 556 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,960 You mentioned your your brothers. 557 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,080 How are things with them? Your new found biological 558 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,440 brothers. They're awful at a snail's pace. 559 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,520 I don't want to discount the fact that we have established a 560 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,920 bit of a relationship and I'm so freaking grateful for that. 561 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,239 So I think in the book, the last thing I leave off with was last 562 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,000 Saint Patrick's Day. And then I do go to the family 563 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,560 reunion in the summer. It's a like a week long event 564 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,520 for them. And my biological father and I 565 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,840 were not there on the same day, but he went the day after me. 566 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,920 And I was invited to my biological father's sisters 567 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,240 house for Christmas this year because a cousin was up that I I 568 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:04,200 have connected with. They were at these things, you 569 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:10,040 know, but for example, my older brother has a daughter who lives 570 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,600 here in my town, who, you know, she's very social in my town. 571 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,080 So am I 3 1/2 years. I still haven't met my niece. 572 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,720 I don't know that she even has a desire to meet me. 573 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:24,280 I have met her brothers, which are my nephews, but I have not 574 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,600 met her for whatever reason is going on. 575 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,400 I know she's very close with her grandmother, which would be my 576 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,200 half brother's mother. So I don't know if there's like 577 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,000 a protection thing there. Although the boy's mother, she 578 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,360 has kind of reached out. I think she's OK with the fact 579 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,160 that I have, you know, found and told my story. 580 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,800 And I think she even has curiosities and would like to 581 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,800 talk someday. And I'm, I'm basically open to 582 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,680 sitting down and talking with anybody. 583 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,680 But as far as the boys are going, it's it's there, but it's 584 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:59,520 very slow and it's still very guarded, I think because of 585 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,480 where their dad is. Now you you mentioned that you 586 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,200 can write the story. You do leave your story 587 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,280 open-ended. Where are you now with 588 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,240 everything and where do you hope it will go? 589 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:18,880 Oh, I love this question because we just spoke about this in our 590 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,360 third Thursday, not this past month, but the month before, you 591 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,840 know, and this goes kind of along with that quote of it 592 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,520 doesn't get better, it gets different, right? 593 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,120 Because we talked about how 3 1/2 years out, things are much 594 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,480 more idle. They don't have a sense of 595 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,920 urgency or curiosity like they did in those maybe that initial 596 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:45,480 year or even 2. Now I have more days where I can 597 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,360 go not feeling fixated on it or thinking about it, but there 598 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,480 will still be days that will pop up and suck me right back in 599 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,600 into why not? How do I do this? 600 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,080 Should I be making the move? Am I the one that's supposed to 601 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,320 keep trying until this happens? Because I've basically told him 602 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,120 time and again in some way, shape or form, you know, via 603 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,520 e-mail through his sons or whatever, I'm here and I'm ready 604 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,520 when you are. I'm going to sit back. 605 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,320 I don't want to push you or pressure you. 606 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,400 You know, you let me know when you're ready. 607 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,080 But on the same token, I'm a very spiritual person. 608 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,440 I believe in manifestation. I believe in helping to write 609 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:31,400 our own stories. And I do feel like I also don't 610 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,600 want to feel like I've thrown in the towel or I've given up 611 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,400 because I haven't. My hope is very much still 612 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,320 there. I would like him to sit down at 613 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,400 a table and meet my husband and his two granddaughters and just 614 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,720 acknowledge that they are of him and his family. 615 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:49,760 And even if it were one meeting, just to say, you know, I would 616 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,000 like for my daughters to be able to go out in the community and 617 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,960 if they run into this cousin of theirs, be able to say hi in a 618 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,280 cordial way and not like turn their head. 619 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:06,040 And I know he's, he's kind of sort of got to be the one to 620 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,720 give the green light for that, if you will. 621 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,600 Nobody's saying that. But let's face it, that's what's 622 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,480 kind of going on here, right? But I, I do feel like he's 623 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,960 warming. But 3 1/2 years out, my need and 624 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,680 my longing for it are definitely dialed down. 625 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,240 They're not gone, they never will be. 626 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,280 But I think one of the biggest things was that this journey of 627 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,800 longing to be long, which has been my whole entire life with 628 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:40,640 my raised family and now with my biological family, has taught me 629 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,240 to love and belong with this little family that I have. 630 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:51,600 Like I have never understood that and cherished that more 631 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,000 than I do right now, this year in this exact time. 632 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:01,520 And for me, I know deep down in my heart of hearts that is 633 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,480 enough. It will be enough for me. 634 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,120 And if they come along, that's just gravy, and that'll be a 635 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,680 nice little bonus. But I really have what I've been 636 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,320 searching for my whole life right here, right now. 637 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,200 And I'm so thankful for that. And I'm so thankful that this 638 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,760 journey in searching for my biological father really helped 639 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:27,000 remind me of that for sure. That's really well stated, well 640 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,800 put. One of the quotes that really 641 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:36,080 stood out to me was when your friend told you your book is 642 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,640 going to help far more people than it is going to hurt. 643 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,880 I loved that. I loved that because, you know, 644 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,160 having the podcast and getting to talk to so many people and 645 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,160 them sharing their stories and you know, on a personal note, 646 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,000 sharing my story and even the little introduction to my 647 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,560 episode every week where I'm acknowledging that this thing 648 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,520 happened to me. You know, I am protective of my 649 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,960 parents and my family. And for a long time it was in 650 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,440 the back of my mind like, is this hurting them to do this? 651 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:19,600 And so to read that, first of all, in my case, I, I don't 652 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,040 think I'm hurting them. I I think they're, they're 653 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,680 working through it, but. To read that was really freeing 654 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:32,200 because it's that reminder of the difference and and the 655 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,040 support that you're lending to other people who have been 656 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:42,720 through similar experiences far outweighs any other fallout that 657 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:45,120 might happen as a result of telling our stories. 658 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,880 Absolutely. I wanted to ask you, how has 659 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,600 putting your story down on paper helped you? 660 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,080 And then, you know, I'm curious what you've been hearing from 661 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,200 people who have read it. Great question. 662 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:06,400 So first of all, let me just say, writing the story I 663 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,400 recommend for everybody. I'm not talking about people, 664 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,080 you know, you don't have to publish the book, but writing 665 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,880 and working through your feelings is I was writing things 666 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,360 I didn't know where these words were coming from half the time. 667 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,800 Like I was like writing my own healing and, and, and, and 668 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,200 stirring up forgiveness and, and things that I didn't know I was 669 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,720 capable of and that were deep down inside. 670 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,480 So I do recommend, whether it be through journaling or like Eve 671 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,800 Sturgis does the processing journal. 672 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,600 I did that with her for one round. 673 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,120 Loved every bit of it. I still do journal, but telling 674 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,840 the story has been extremely cathartic. 675 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,440 And I think that, you know, because I had had a lot of epic 676 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,440 episodes even prior to this, like I, you know, I, I got 677 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,600 sober, I had a weight loss journey, I had cancer, I had 678 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,280 this traumatic childhood. I basically said, look, there's 679 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,640 no way I'm not supposed to be talking about this stuff. 680 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,600 There's just too many things. But you're right, it comes back 681 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:15,000 to that quote and and I, I took that quote very, very literally, 682 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,880 Alexis, I said to myself, how many people am I going to piss 683 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,080 off? Let me, let me count. 684 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,880 And I got to like 3 or 4 people who could actually genuinely be 685 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,400 pissed off that I was sharing the story, OK. 686 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,600 Or who have a right to be genuinely pissed off that I was 687 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,120 sharing any of these stories. And then I thought about the 688 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,640 thousands of people out there who have been abused, who need 689 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,360 to get sober, who have been through cancer, who have found 690 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,600 out that they really didn't belong to their family. 691 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,800 And I thought, she's exactly right. 692 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,680 It doesn't matter if I piss off a few people. 693 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:55,040 If I piss them off enough that they want to exit my life or 694 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,240 they don't want anything to do with me, then that's their loss. 695 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,240 And that brings me to the other part of your question, in that I 696 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:05,040 still have. My book has been out since 697 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,880 December and I still have not heard any feedback from my 698 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,640 biological side as to the take on what they think about it. 699 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,320 I don't know if my biological father read it. 700 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,360 I don't know if he will. I don't know if my brothers have 701 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,560 or my aunts or my cousins. The last I checked in with my 702 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,160 cousin, she just hadn't gotten to it yet and, you know, was 703 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,160 hoping to do so. And of course, I'm dying of 704 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,960 curiosity because I think I did it. 705 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,240 I wrote the story in a very tactful manner and I really, as 706 00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:39,120 much as I honored everybody else's perspective, I really 707 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:44,000 just want them to see mine and understand I'm not coming at 708 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,360 anybody. I'm not trying to hurt anybody. 709 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,080 I'm not trying to blame anybody. I'm just trying to say this is 710 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:55,480 life and it happened and now here I am, you know, So I don't 711 00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:03,440 know that my story coming out has truly hurt anybody over 712 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,720 here, the key players. Because I would like to think 713 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,240 that my book has freed my raised father from having to carry 714 00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:14,720 those secrets anymore. And I hope that it has freed my 715 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:19,920 biological father from having to, you know, exit his lifetime 716 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,560 having to say, well, I didn't reach out to her. 717 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,600 I didn't talk to that girl. I didn't give her the time of 718 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,280 day. You know, he did sit down with 719 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,320 me. And if that's all I ever get, he 720 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,160 at least can know that he gave me that, right. 721 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:40,960 So I just feel like, well, people might be maybe a little 722 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,960 embarrassed initially, a little shamed initially. 723 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,600 I hope that nobody is hurt, but that everybody becomes healed. 724 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,920 I don't want to go into any any more spoilers other than to say 725 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:02,160 you're you're really fantastic storyteller, writer, author, and 726 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,520 for people that have had this experience, I think it this book 727 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,440 will definitely validate a lot of the feelings that that we 728 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:16,400 experience when you outline like the the I don't know how many 729 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,880 were in the list, but like 10 feelings that you realized 730 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:21,960 didn't make your story a special. 731 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,040 You know when you're. Listening to the podcast of of 732 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,080 not being able to look at yourself in the mirror, of 733 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,640 having an out of body experience. 734 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,440 Like you kind of go through all of that and that's really going 735 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,720 to help people, far more people than it could have possibly 736 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:41,480 hurt. Where can people find your book 737 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,800 if they are interested in reading When You Shake the 738 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,480 Family tree? Come on, thanks for letting me 739 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,160 put in a little plug. So my book is available on 740 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,400 Amazon. It is under my pen name, which 741 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,040 is Margo Reilly. I write under a pen name, not 742 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,760 for anonymity, but just out of respect to the players. 743 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,960 Obviously everybody's name is changed in in the story, but 744 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,120 both of my memoirs are on Amazon and they are again under Mark 745 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,120 O'Reilly. But if you go to my website, 746 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,400 which is just being jill.com, all the information about my 747 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,040 books is there. You can even get the 1st chapter 748 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,280 free to my latest memoir if you want to kind of read it and see 749 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,560 if it's for you. I believe the introduction and 750 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,640 chapter one are available once you subscribe at the bottom. 751 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,560 And I don't send any daunting things out. 752 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,440 You know, it's just so that you can be informed about my books 753 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,920 and, and, you know, and if I put them on sale or anything like 754 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,360 that, you might get a notification. 755 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,440 But yeah, just being jill.com is the place to go. 756 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,000 Awesome, Jill, thank you so much for joining me for an update and 757 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,520 just sharing your progress since we first spoke. 758 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,280 I will put the link to your book and your website in the show 759 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,320 notes for anyone who's interested, and I'll see you on 760 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,680 the next third Thursday. You sure will. 761 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,000 Thank you for your time and thank you for allowing me to 762 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,160 come and give this update. I love hearing the continued 763 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,240 stories and progress of of the people that you spend your time 764 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:10,320 with. I think it's fascinating to hear 765 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,640 our similarities and our differences and I really 766 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,280 appreciate it. I appreciate what you do. 767 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,720 Thank you, Alexis. Thank you. 768 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,040 Thanks again to Jill for joining me. 769 00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:23,480 If you want to read her book When You Shake the Family Tree, 770 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,880 pick it up at Just Being jill.com. 771 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,720 And if you have adna surprise that you'd like to share, please 772 00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:32,560 submit your story at dnasurprises.com. 773 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:38,400 Finally, be sure to join me over at patreon.com/DNA Surprises for 774 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,000 early ad free access to episodes. 775 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,760 Until next time, this episode of DNA Surprises was hosted, 776 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,760 produced, and edited by me, Alexis Ourselt. 777 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,600 It was mixed and mastered by Josh Ourselt of Siren Recording 778 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:55,360 Studios.