1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,280 It felt surreal and I remember just really struggling to make 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:09,240 sense of it kind of going like, OK, so how is this person family 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,400 but also a stranger, which is just obvious, right? 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,200 Like yes, this is what everybody faces. 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,200 But those thoughts coming up like how is this person family 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,800 but also a stranger? And she's my sister. 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,560 So like I'm supposed to just love her, right? 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,920 Or are we supposed to figure out for friends? 9 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,480 Or are we just exchanging information or like what are we 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,880 doing? But I actually found her just 11 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:39,440 really easy to talk to and super intelligent and I just was 12 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,560 interested in her and her life and I think the feeling was 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,880 mutual. Welcome to DNA Surprises, a 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,280 podcast that delves into the world of unexpected DNA 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,920 discoveries. I'm your host, Alexis Soursalt. 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,920 In July 2021, my life took a surprising turn when I found out 17 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:04,760 that I'm an N P/E, a person who has experienced a non paternal 18 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,080 event. In other words, my biological 19 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,360 father isn't who I thought he was. 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,120 Join me as we explore the stories of NP, ES, adoptees, and 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,680 donor conceived people and their families. 22 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:22,640 Get ready to unravel the astonishing journeys that begin 23 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:27,960 with a simple DNA test. This is DNA surprises. 24 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,640 At the end of every DNA Surprises episode, I ask my 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,920 guests 2 questions, I ask for advice for people in our 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,720 community, and I ask for advice for parents keeping Adna 27 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,360 surprise from their child. Time and time again, guests 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,440 implore parents to tell the truth. 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,640 But when is the right time to tell? 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,400 And are the ramifications different than when Adna 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,760 surprise is uncovered with Adna test? 32 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,920 In this week's episode, Megan shares how one day, her parents 33 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,200 took her for a long walk and revealed the truth her dad is 34 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,759 not biologically related to her. She then shares the fallout from 35 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:15,000 that, connecting with new family members while balancing the fact 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,200 that her biological father is not a safe person. 37 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,680 Megan also shares how her DNA surprise LED her to create a 38 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,320 book for people who have had similar experiences. 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,160 I'll be sure to share that when it's available. 40 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,520 Thank you for sharing your story, Megan. 41 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,920 My name is Megan, I'm 44 and I'm from Vancouver Island in Canada. 42 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,160 I grew up here with my mom and my, I guess who I learned to be 43 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,600 my adoptive dad and a younger sister. 44 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:54,080 And I did have suspicions growing up, but they were always 45 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,600 sort of put to rest if I asked. And then I guess Fast forward a 46 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,480 whole bunch, I was married and I had two kids and we had always 47 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,440 talked about adopting and so being on that side of the triad. 48 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:11,600 And so we were in the process of like learning. 49 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,600 And here in Canada, or at least in BC, there's like a whole 50 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:18,000 educational component. So we were sort of going through 51 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,160 those pieces and the whole time sharing what we were learning 52 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,440 with my mom and dad. And so there was a particular 53 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:34,440 night where we were talking about openness and we had shared 54 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,880 why we felt that was really important and what we had 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,280 learned about that. And my mom and dad were on board 56 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,400 with birth moms being involved, but not birth dads. 57 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,800 And it was this really interesting exchange because we 58 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,200 were going like, OK, so birth moms are cool, you're cool with 59 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,040 that. But birth dads like, what's the 60 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,560 hang up? And they said, what if, what if 61 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,360 he's dangerous? It was like, OK, but what if 62 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,200 he's not right? Like we don't know who this 63 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,360 person is. We don't know anything about 64 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,560 them, you know, etcetera, etcetera. 65 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,760 But they were just like, I don't want to say unreasonably upset, 66 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,200 but like, there was no logical context for their being as 67 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,399 opposed as they were. And so after they left, there 68 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:23,520 was this conversation between my husband and I where we were 69 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,360 going, like, just don't understand, is this a generation 70 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,280 gap or is it like, what's happening? 71 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,880 And so then a couple weeks went by and I was closing in on my 72 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,960 33rd birthday. And so I sort of mentioned it in 73 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,120 conversation to mom and dad. And there was like a bit of 74 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,480 attention that happened where, you know, there was a look 75 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,000 exchanged between them and they said, we, we have to talk to you 76 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,640 and can we go for a walk? And I thought, OK, let's go for 77 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,000 a walk. And I told the kids, like, go 78 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,080 put your shoes on and get the dog ready. 79 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,640 And they went, no, no, no, just you. 80 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,440 And my heart kind of like stopped. 81 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,120 I thought, oh, shoot, like, what have I done? 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,080 What's happened? Who's sick? 83 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,960 Like all the thoughts racing of like, what is happening? 84 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,160 And so off we go on our walk. And we got like almost to the to 85 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,840 this sort of nature walk by our house where we were headed to. 86 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:14,840 And I said, so what's up? And they said, no, no, no, we 87 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:16,400 have to be further. We're not ready yet. 88 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,960 So they took me like a fair distance from the house into 89 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,440 nature, got us, you know, sitting down. 90 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,880 And then my mom spilled the beans, but very, very slowly. 91 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,920 She sort of stumbled around with her birds a lot. 92 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,120 And all she could get out at first was your father. 93 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,000 And then there was a long pause, but in my head my voice had 94 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,640 finished the sentence. Isn't your dad like I knew? 95 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:47,640 So you just knew you had an A knowing now, you said when you 96 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,680 were a child that you had questions and those were kind of 97 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,760 easily put to bed and you believed your parents, as most 98 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,760 people do. What kinds of questions did you 99 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,080 have at that time? Did you wonder if your dad was 100 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,680 your father? Were you wondering if you were 101 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,800 adopted? Like what were your questions? 102 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,800 Yeah, So my sister and I just never like had much resemblance. 103 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,560 I'm very fair and I've always had very big curly hair and like 104 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,120 I'm kind of lanky and freckles, all that kind of thing. 105 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,600 Whereas my sister, she's got like the olive skin and the 106 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,240 straight fine hair and different build. 107 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,920 And we were just very different. And so as odd as this sounds, we 108 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,520 actually would have our friends and sometimes teachers would 109 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,240 even ask us, are you guys full sisters? 110 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,960 Like you both look like your mom but but you don't. 111 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,200 Both both look like your. Dad. 112 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,920 Wow, which is just so interesting, right, that people 113 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,520 comment to children on things like that, which is probably a 114 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,640 whole separate conversation. But but so when when people did 115 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,840 that to you, you would go, you maybe went home and did you ask 116 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:04,640 your parents like, Hey, why, why do we look so different? 117 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,480 And what did they say? Yeah, so that's exactly what 118 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,720 would happen is I would tell them, no, of course we're fell 119 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:11,720 sisters. Like what? 120 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,760 And they would explain why they asked, right? 121 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,520 And then I would I'd go home and ask, usually my mom, and she 122 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,960 would say, yeah, no, you're fell sisters. 123 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:26,320 Why would they ask you that? OK, I guess the other thing was 124 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,000 that as I got into my sort of teen years, what I started to 125 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,720 notice was that compared to my friends, I had a lot more rules 126 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,880 and there was a lot more like safety type things, like I 127 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,760 wasn't allowed to walk to the corner store alone or just some 128 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:49,760 of these things. And then again, as I got a 129 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,000 little older and then I started spending time in the city and 130 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,280 stuff, my mom would tell me just sort of strange things, like 131 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,040 she'd say, watch out for this particular last name. 132 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,520 Like if you meet people with this last name, tell me. 133 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,440 And I was like, that's really strange. 134 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,680 And she didn't tell you why. But no, no, like no explanation. 135 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:13,600 And and then there was sort of like, I think around 18/17/18, 136 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,720 there was a story that she shared about having an 137 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,200 ex-boyfriend that was quite violent. 138 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,560 And I remember after her sharing that story too, being like, is 139 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,040 he my real dad? And she said, no, like, why 140 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,000 would you ask that? And I kind of said, well, why 141 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,840 would you tell me the story? Why share this if there? 142 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,840 And she said, well, because you're at an age where you're 143 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,880 dating and you're meeting men and I want you to know what a 144 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,480 not so great relationship looks like so that you don't get into 145 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,360 it. So I think probably she may have 146 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,600 been trying to build up the courage to tell me at that 147 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,720 point. And then sort of backed out at 148 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,080 the very end. But OK, it was enough to really 149 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:57,680 sort of stick into my brain that that was a real possibility, 150 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,640 even though she didn't confirm it. 151 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,880 OK, so you're on this walk with your parents, your mom? 152 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,440 Says your father. Long pause. 153 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,320 You finish the sentence in your mind. 154 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,160 What happens when she actually says it? 155 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:21,480 I just nodded and I said I know. Was she surprised when you said 156 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,840 that? Yeah, yeah, she was. 157 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,880 She was a little welled up already because I think just the 158 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,840 stress of the whole thing, like, I can't imagine holding a secret 159 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,880 for that long. And then now this is the moment 160 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,160 you're telling the secret, you know, I know my heart was 161 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,000 thumping. So I imagine her heart was just 162 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,360 thumping and she just did. How could you know? 163 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:50,800 And I said the way anybody knows anything, you feel it right in 164 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,520 your heart and right in your gut, like it's just there. 165 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,200 At that point, how are you feeling? 166 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:08,440 Oh, that's a good question. I think my empathy for my mom 167 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:16,200 and dad was, and particularly my mom was so high that I think I 168 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:23,520 was really tuned into trying to just be OK and make it OK for 169 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,600 her. I remember asking like for some 170 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,280 details in that moment and they were willing to share just that 171 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,120 fact, but nothing else really. So I remember asking questions, 172 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:41,320 not getting answers, and then sort of accepting the defeat of 173 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,320 that moment, like, OK, this is all I'm gonna get this time. 174 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,360 And so we started walking back to the house in part way. 175 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,640 I volunteered. Well, I guess this doesn't 176 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:57,000 really change anything, even though inside it changes 177 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,000 everything. Yeah, I was gonna ask upside 178 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:01,760 down. I was gonna. 179 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,400 Ask Were you really feeling that or were you just wanting to 180 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,280 comfort your parents in that moment? 181 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,720 I think I was wanting to comfort them and I think also it was a 182 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,200 real feeling of duality, like I could feel both things I was 183 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,400 able to hold space for like this doesn't change anything. 184 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,560 Like you're still mom and dad and our family is still our 185 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:26,200 family, but also hold space inside of me for actually this 186 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,360 changes everything. Absolutely. 187 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,240 So at that point, you're not getting any details. 188 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,080 What do you do next? Do you tell your children, your 189 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,680 husband? What do you do? 190 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,680 You know, what's funny is I don't actually remember exactly 191 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,640 how this played out. What I do know is from my 192 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,280 daughter recounting to me what she remembers. 193 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,680 So I must have just been absolutely in shock because I, I 194 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:56,320 really don't remember. But she remembers me coming home 195 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,880 and just going to my room and just spending a little bit of 196 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,280 time there alone for a few minutes after. 197 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,320 And my mom and dad, I'm assuming, left fairly quickly. 198 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,600 So she remembers me spending some time alone and then coming 199 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,240 down and having a little chat quietly with my husband. 200 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,160 And I do kind of remember that a little bit. 201 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,560 I remember us doing dishes and me just kind of like muttering, 202 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,560 hey, so this is what they said and him going, oh, OK. 203 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,960 And it was like, and nothing. And that's it. 204 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,280 That's all I got. And I do remember telling my 205 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,200 kids, I don't know that my son would remember. 206 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,120 He was pretty young. I think he was like 7 or 8. 207 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,960 But my daughter was a little bit older. 208 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,600 I think she was closer to 13 or so. 209 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,600 What happens next? Do you want to start digging in 210 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,920 and finding out who this person is? 211 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,040 You get this information, What do you do with it? 212 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,520 Yeah, and you know what? Without extra information, it 213 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,600 was really hard to do anything. There was sort of an assumption 214 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,280 in my head that I think maybe she confirmed, I'm not sure, but 215 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,360 I had the assumption that, OK, this was probably the person who 216 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,160 was the ex that that it was an unhappy, abusive relationship. 217 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,320 It's probably this person that she was talking about. 218 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:21,640 But beyond that, what does a person do with it? 219 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:27,720 I didn't have a name to go with. I didn't have anything. 220 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,120 Like there was nothing. So I was really without power 221 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:39,480 and kind of at the mercy of my mom's timeline, which is now a 222 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,040 lot of years have passed. So I can have empathy for that, 223 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:47,720 that, you know, she was prepared to share a certain amount and 224 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,840 she hadn't gone past that point yet. 225 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,080 So I had to wait for her to be ready. 226 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,080 So I cried a lot. I cried a lot. 227 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,200 I prayed a lot. I journaled. 228 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,320 I love an art studio so I did a lot of pottery and art and just 229 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,200 tried to be OK and and persuade her I guess to. 230 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:11,360 Yeah, because this was, this was 11 years ago approximately. 231 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:17,440 So DNA testing wasn't as prevalent as it is now. 232 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,760 So at this point, I mean, were was Ancestry or anything like 233 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,360 that even on your radar in terms of finding your father? 234 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,320 Yeah, not at all, not at all. And even in terms of the 235 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,320 Internet, like it was around, but I didn't know. 236 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,280 I didn't know what I was called like. 237 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,360 And I remember going away and thinking about it and going, OK, 238 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,080 does this mean like I'm adopted then or what am I? 239 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,520 What does this mean? And then after searching online 240 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,880 for quite a bit, I think it was a couple years even then, I came 241 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,600 up across a forum for late discovery adoptees on Facebook. 242 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,320 I don't think we had the term in PE yet. 243 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,840 I think it was just LDA. That was all there was. 244 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,280 But I remember feeling great relief at just that, going, OK, 245 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,000 I have a name, there's a name for this. 246 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,160 And then really looking for resources. 247 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,480 I was in school for counseling to become a counselor at the 248 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,400 time. And I remember even then also 249 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,160 looking at all my course working, going OK, where's the 250 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,520 help for this? Where's the map? 251 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,560 How do we get better? How do we recover from this? 252 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,680 I'm just not really finding a lot, finding comfort with other 253 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,080 people online who had shared their stories, but I remember 254 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,560 all of us being or feeling like all of us were really just in 255 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:41,440 the same pool of despair and lostness and suffering and not 256 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,120 necessarily anybody knowing the way out. 257 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:54,200 How much time goes by before you make progress in learning the 258 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,400 truth about your birth? So I think it was about six 259 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,680 months later that I I had a name to work with. 260 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,880 So I had a last name and a first name. 261 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,160 My mom finally told me. But before that, I was just 262 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,320 begging for really, like, bread crumbs, like, give me anything, 263 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,400 give me something to work with. And she said, OK, well, he was 264 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,720 Belgian. And I was like, OK, all right. 265 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:28,360 And like, and, and she said, and he was athletic, OK. 266 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,680 And so I remember going online and, like, Googling Belgian 267 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,200 athletes and, like, just looking at their pictures and going, OK, 268 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,960 that's the thing. And then reading about the 269 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,320 culture. And I read something about a 270 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,560 protest that involves French fries, something about people 271 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,960 eating a lot of French fries at this protest or a French fry 272 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,720 protest. And me going, well, I love 273 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,640 French fries. Like, I was looking for any 274 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,800 little crumb to identify this piece and go, OK, well, they 275 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,200 love French fries. I love French fries. 276 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,440 Yes. OK, that's it. 277 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,319 And then, you know, some time went by and then I did have a 278 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:09,160 last name to work with. And then the search actually got 279 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,599 a lot easier. I sat on the fence a lot about 280 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,960 whether or not to meet him and ultimately decided not to 281 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,240 because when she disclosed all the details of what had 282 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,560 happened, I just really wasn't super comfortable with it. 283 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,840 It was kind of like, OK, people change, but do people change 284 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,640 that much? I, I don't know. 285 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,400 At the time I put it on hold, I didn't make my mind 100%, but I 286 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,600 was like, I'm certainly going to put that on hold and we'll see 287 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,600 if we can find siblings first. So using one of the search 288 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,560 engines online, there was a website for people to connect. 289 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,280 I went looking for him, but what I found was his daughter looking 290 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,200 for him. And so I went OK, so half 291 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,800 sibling. Cool. 292 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:01,320 OK, so she was the first half sibling that I met and she was 293 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,320 also placed for adoption. So she was also not raised by 294 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,960 him. And so it was kind of neat to 295 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,400 connect with. Yeah, like an older sister. 296 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,640 I was the oldest, but now I'm not the oldest. 297 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:13,800 Wow. All right. 298 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,320 So you find a sibling, I guess she probably doesn't give you 299 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,520 much information though about your family, but did you get a 300 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,800 chance to speak with her and and what was that like to connect 301 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,800 with somebody on your paternal side that you were related to? 302 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:37,000 And then from there the search was easy because our niece on 303 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,920 that side also found her through the same website. 304 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,640 And so then she contacted me one day and she said how do you feel 305 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,280 about meeting a niece? And I was like perfect, hook us 306 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,120 up. And that was kind of cool 307 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,240 because she lives a lot closer to us. 308 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:55,480 She's in Vancouver as opposed to my half sisters like across the 309 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,320 country. So I think it was like 2 years 310 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,080 post discovery we met my niece for the first time. 311 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:08,640 You're meeting these extended family members as you're 312 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,240 meeting. Do you share what you have 313 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,720 learned? Are you keeping that close? 314 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,360 How are you navigating that? Because you know, often when I 315 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:23,960 hear these stories, it's maybe it was an affair, he didn't 316 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,280 know, maybe he did know, but he had a family or something like 317 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,120 that. But there are these 318 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:34,840 circumstances where it there was a reason why your mother didn't 319 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,640 want you to be around this man. So do you disclose those reasons 320 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,520 to the people that you meet? You're, you're asking like the 321 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,960 golden ticket question, right? Like what is the story? 322 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,640 What really happened? So I'll tell what really 323 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,600 happened in the best way that I can, because since writing my 324 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,640 book, I had to meet with a lawyer and they told me all this 325 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,720 stuff about you can say this and you can't say that. 326 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,040 So I'm going to do my best to tell it as truthfully as I can. 327 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,080 So the story she discloses to me is that when she was 15 is when 328 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,520 she met my birth dad and he was in his mid 30s. 329 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,600 So like gigantic age gap, gigantic power differential. 330 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,760 And so he lures her into some form of relationship that they 331 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,520 were in from the time she was 15 until 22. 332 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,280 He was married at the time. He had three other children with 333 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,800 that particular woman. He had many more children than 334 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,920 that, but he had three boys he was raising with his wife at the 335 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,800 time. And the one boy, the one in the 336 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,640 middle, was actually just a little bit younger than my mom 337 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,240 and was there for like, the whole relationship. 338 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,560 He was aware of it. He was expected to keep it a 339 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,600 secret. And so, yeah, big, big safety 340 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,000 issues, big red flags. And so, yeah, when I met my 341 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,040 mother, sister, I did tell her that when I met my niece, it 342 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,240 wasn't a secret what kind of a person he was. 343 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,480 And like, very quickly, often actually the first question was, 344 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,840 are you in contact with him, right. 345 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,840 So like when whenever I met someone, it was like, are you 346 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,560 gonna find him? Have you found him? 347 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,800 Because there was, there were safety issues or at least we 348 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,240 believe there's safety issues, right? 349 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,800 Right. So the niece that you met, was 350 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,720 she the child of one of the the children that he raised? 351 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,120 Yeah. OK, yeah, so she was the child 352 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,080 of the oldest brother. We got to know her a little bit. 353 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,200 And then she connected us, not with her dad, because that's a 354 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,160 whole other story, but with her uncle, the second boy that was 355 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,120 all friends with my mom. So she kind of said, do you want 356 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:50,480 to meet Uncle so and so? And I said, Oh yeah. 357 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,560 And I checked with my mom first. I said, do you mind if I meet so 358 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,400 and so? She said sort of of all of them, 359 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,680 that's who she would feel the best about me meeting, just from 360 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,200 what she could remember of him. So I said, yeah, go ahead and 361 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,280 give him my number. And then I waited for like a 362 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,480 year, long enough that I gave up. 363 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,280 Yeah, you've had a lot of patience throughout this 364 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,760 process. So when he reaches out to you, 365 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,000 what does he say? He says, hey, it's your brother, 366 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,520 and sorry it took so long. Yeah, it was really awkward at 367 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,520 first. We had some awkward exchange. 368 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,400 He cracked a joke that was like, if anybody in my normal life 369 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,000 cracked this joke, I would have been like, we're not friends 370 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,880 anymore. But because it was him, I was 371 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,360 like, I'm going to give him a chance. 372 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:43,760 He's probably just nervous. I'm really nervous. 373 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,640 It's going to sound maybe weird, But almost always my first 374 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,120 question when I was meeting family members was like, are you 375 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:55,400 a safe person? Because there was a lot of, from 376 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,520 what I could tell, there was a lot of really complicated family 377 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:04,040 issues. And I mean, maybe an unsafe 378 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,000 person isn't going to say they're unsafe, but I was still 379 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,040 going to ask. Yeah, you know. 380 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,080 Did your mom give you the information about your brother 381 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,200 being around and that he was a friend or did he fill you in on 382 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,120 some of those details? She did initially, Yeah, she 383 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:24,760 did. Initially. 384 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,600 She said that she remembered my brother as being really, really 385 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,520 kind and that they were really, really good friends and that 386 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,720 when she was needing to be cared for, he was someone that we care 387 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:40,000 for her. So that that in itself kind of 388 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:47,160 paints a picture, doesn't it? How is your mom reacting as 389 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,640 you're pursuing learning more? It was so hard for both of us. 390 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,440 Every time I took a step forward, I always talk to her 391 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,440 about it and my heart always raced and my hands always shook 392 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,080 and I'm pretty sure hers were too. 393 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,240 I don't think it was ever a bridge she wanted to cross and I 394 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,920 think if I had have been happy to not cross that too, that 395 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,720 would have been so much easier for her. 396 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,200 It wasn't easy for her, it wasn't easy for me. 397 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,920 It was hard. And what is your raised father, 398 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,160 your adoptive father? What is he doing during this 399 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,720 time and is he supportive of you pursuing these connections? 400 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:37,800 My dad that raised me was a really interesting human in 401 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,000 terms of parenting and I, again, I don't think it made sense 402 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,120 until hindsight, right? I think he was more hands on 403 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,640 with my sister. I feel like there's been a lot 404 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,080 of times where I felt like him and my mom maybe had something 405 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,120 of an agreement or he just realized that because I wasn't 406 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:59,760 his, he felt differently. So he wasn't super involved with 407 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,960 me all the time and certainly not emotional. 408 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,920 He was very reserved that way, so he really didn't have very 409 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,240 much to say. At the point that I met my 410 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:13,480 brother in person, he had something to say about that and 411 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,880 it it wasn't very nice, it wasn't very kind. 412 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:21,360 So when my brother and I agreed that we wanted to meet, he said 413 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:23,280 he wanted to check with my mum first. 414 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,480 So I went back to my mum and said he wants to talk with you 415 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,480 first and I'm OK with that too. And she said, OK, let's do that. 416 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,560 So then the two of them met first the day before us. 417 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,280 And I don't know all the events of that. 418 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,760 It sounds like it was really emotional and really hard for 419 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,960 everybody. He wanted her permission to meet 420 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,800 me, he wanted her approval. So she gave it. 421 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,880 And so we did meet the next day. He knew it was me right away. 422 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,560 Like I came in and he stood up and he went. 423 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,320 There's my sister. Oh big and. 424 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,640 Gregarious and huge hugs. And to hear that, it was 425 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,320 incredible and such a relief. Cause like I'm a fairly shy 426 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,280 person and so meeting new people even without them being long 427 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,000 lost family or whatever, and all the emotional baggage of that, 428 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,920 I'm nervous. So he stands up in big arms and 429 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,360 big voice. That's my sister. 430 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,640 And then he introduces me to the waitress too. 431 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,240 This is my sister. I'm so excited. 432 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,160 So that was that was beautiful. I'm really welcoming and felt 433 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,520 good. That's amazing. 434 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,480 At any point did you do DNA testing to try to connect to 435 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,560 people I. Think it was probably a good 436 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,560 five or six years later. So like quite a bit of time went 437 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,000 by and my husband bought me Adna test as a gift. 438 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,880 I didn't have doubt that we were related. 439 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:53,560 Like there was resemblance very strongly, particularly between 440 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,480 my daughter and my niece. And when I met my brother, I was 441 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,560 like, OK, we have the same eyes and my son has the same eyes. 442 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:05,280 But yeah, we did the DNA test and it connected me to other 443 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,320 nephews. I think we're the main people. 444 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,720 And then the whole family line story unfolded. 445 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,040 What had happened was my birth dad had a son with someone when 446 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,000 he was like in his teens, I think he was like 17 or 447 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,200 something, that son was placed for adoption. 448 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,040 And so then I connected with that son's son. 449 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,880 And then my birth dad had another daughter, which was the 450 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,840 daughter that I met from across the country there. 451 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,680 And then he got married and had the three boys that he raised in 452 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:46,160 amongst that he also had me. And then there's rumor that 453 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,600 there's there was a couple more after that. 454 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,960 And so part of my taking the test was also going, OK, well, 455 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,000 like if there's more maybe they'll they'll surface here. 456 00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:02,560 And how are you sort of compartmentalizing building 457 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,400 these new relationships with these people who are safe and 458 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,920 seem welcoming and all of that with there's one big piece of 459 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,320 the picture that you do not want contact with. 460 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,880 So how are you navigating that? And maybe you didn't have to. 461 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,280 I don't, I don't know. No, it's a. 462 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,320 It's a really good question. It's a good question. 463 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,760 I think when I've met people, often the first question is for 464 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,160 both parties, are you in contact with so and so? 465 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,800 And the correct answer is no, we are not in contact with so and 466 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,760 so because if you are, nobody wants anything to do with you. 467 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,480 Like this is not a safe person that we want in our life. 468 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,160 It actually felt like a huge relief when I got to know my 469 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,560 brother and getting to know him sort of provided that it filled 470 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,360 in a lot of pieces for me without needing to feel like I 471 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,680 needed to meet this other person. 472 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,840 And it also gave me some confirmation that that was the 473 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,240 right decision and feeling like, OK, I've made a decision on 474 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,560 that. And I'm firm on it. 475 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,760 That was a relief. It meant OK, like the rest of 476 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,280 the journey can look however it looks. 477 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,160 But this part, I know this is how I want it to be. 478 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,160 And I also know that this person is like aging. 479 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,600 They're getting on in yours and it is what it is, right? 480 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,440 OK, so it sounds like most people then many people in their 481 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,800 life, his life are estranged from him because of the choices 482 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,520 that that he's made. I guess my next question is 483 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,520 because, you know, when I, when I do talk to people, there's a 484 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:47,120 lot of energy and feeling around how we were conceived and you 485 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,200 know, were we conceived in love? All, all of those kinds of 486 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,440 questions. You have a pretty clear picture 487 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,720 of what the circumstances were around your conception and your 488 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,800 birth. It's not a happy story, 489 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,600 traumatic for your mom. Obviously it does not define who 490 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:14,200 you are as a person, but did you have to navigate any of those 491 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,280 feelings about who you were? I have. 492 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,680 The result of this? Absolutely. 493 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,840 Yeah. I, I remember writing a lot 494 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,160 about who does this make me? Because in the beginning, the 495 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,600 way that I interpreted my mum's reluctance to give me his name 496 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:38,880 and I wrote it down was what kind of a monster must he be if 497 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,200 I can't even know his name? And if his DNA makes up half of 498 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,840 who I am, then what does that mean about me? 499 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,240 I did grapple with that a lot. And I felt bad for my mom 500 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,960 because she had said to me, I don't want you to internalize 501 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,280 it. She said I don't want you to 502 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,960 make it. But it's unavoidable. 503 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,640 It's just human nature. I think anyone who has this kind 504 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,880 of discovery grapples with identity and has to sort of 505 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,280 rebuild from the ground up in a lot of ways. 506 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,840 And then I remember what kind of brought me comfort, at least for 507 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,600 a short time, was I had come across Khalil, Khalil Gibran's 508 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,400 He there's a poem called on Children. 509 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,200 And there's a line in this poem where he says, they come through 510 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,840 you, not from you. And then I sort of had this 511 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,720 vision of like, you know, an actual tree and how so much goes 512 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,400 through the tree to create the fruitage. 513 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,880 And it's just the tree is the vessel for the fruit. 514 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,080 I remember doing like artwork about it. 515 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,880 I I drew all these trees and all this. 516 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,000 You know, like. All of this heavily processing 517 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:52,160 reflection. And so for a short time, it kind 518 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,240 of like allowed me to distance from it, go, OK, I came through 519 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,400 this, not from this. Later, my thoughts on that 520 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,200 changed dramatically. Like probably in the last two to 521 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,880 three years, I've done a lot of ancestor work and a lot of 522 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,840 ancestor meditation and, you know, like leaning completely 523 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:09,840 the other way. Yeah. 524 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,480 How has that changed? So what changed this last year 525 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,800 was that I guess about two years ago my grandfather passed away. 526 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,080 So that was my mom's dad and we were really close. 527 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,760 So when he passed away, immediately, what I wanted to do 528 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,280 was go back to his home country of Malta because he never talked 529 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,680 about it very much, but it was a big part of who he was. 530 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,200 And I was curious. I don't know, I just wanted to 531 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,320 see it. I wanted to see it. 532 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,560 I wanted to feel it, smell it, hear it, eat the food, all the 533 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,560 things, and see if there was like some remnants of him and 534 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,920 myself there. So we planned the strict Malta. 535 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,600 We went there in March. And then just life being what it 536 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,480 is, our plane stops over in Paris. 537 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,880 And I don't know if you're familiar with the Paris airport, 538 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,360 but it is wildly enormous. Nobody is speaking English, 539 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,520 there is a lot of yelling there are like you have to take buses 540 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,040 within the airport to get to the different terminals. 541 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,160 Like it is just chaos. Anyways, so we miss our flight, 542 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,000 our connecting flight, and the best the airport can do is tell 543 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,760 us to stay in Paris for like 2 days and then they will fly us 544 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,520 to Italy where we will wait another day and then get our 545 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,120 connecting flight. And so at first we were kind of 546 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,280 like, Oh my gosh, like worst nightmare, what is happening? 547 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,560 So we scramble, we find somewhere to stay. 548 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:45,080 But then it also felt really like a blessing in disguise 549 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,240 because the other pieces of MyHeritage, so my birth dad's 550 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,520 family was French, Belgian. So the French piece was a big 551 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,880 piece, and then also Italian came up very strongly, not just 552 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,240 on my grandpa's side, but also on that side as well. 553 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,480 And so when we were in Paris, I was still doing the work like I 554 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,760 was when we were on the trains. I was looking at the buildings 555 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,560 and going, OK, like, was my great, great grandmother here 556 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:15,440 and did she see what I'm seeing? There was something, it's hard 557 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,600 to even put into words, but there was something just inside 558 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,920 me that felt this curiosity and this comfort and this holding 559 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,199 and connection. And it's so much bigger than 560 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:32,239 maybe the vadnais of one person or the mistakes of one person or 561 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,440 many people. Like it was just, it was larger 562 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,840 than life. It was larger than me. 563 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,840 And then the same experience happened in Italy and then very, 564 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,920 very much so more in Malta. I had come across this 565 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,239 philosophy before we went that our ancestors really are within 566 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,760 us and so we carry them with us all the time and we always have 567 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,360 access to them. So like even without the facts, 568 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,920 we have those pieces in US. And so I really kind of leaned 569 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,000 into that emotionally and mentally while we were 570 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,880 travelling and felt that. Comfort. 571 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,160 I love that. That's so profound. 572 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,240 So I wrote this book and really just wrote it from my heart. 573 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,760 Like just rewrote somewhere in the middle. 574 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:23,240 I felt really unqualified. I was like, I am not qualified 575 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:25,360 to talk about someone not being raised by a birth mom. 576 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,720 Like I'm qualified to talk about someone being raised by a mom 577 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:32,880 who's like conflicted or where they've come out of something 578 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,600 that wasn't necessarily loving. But there are definite 579 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,760 limitations to what I can write about from experience. 580 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,360 And so I put a call out to the community that others could send 581 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,480 in their stories and contribute to be a part of it. 582 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,840 So I had a number of people write in. 583 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,200 And so those stories were gorgeous and generous and 584 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,080 vulnerable. And I'm so excited and happy to 585 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,160 have them in the book and thankful that people did that. 586 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,240 But the next step was that I had to meet with a lawyer who 587 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,200 explained to me all of the legalities of, you know, helping 588 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,120 others tell their stories in ways that are responsible, which 589 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,640 is a side note to the asterisks. That is, I came to the 590 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,040 conclusion my mom really needed to approve of or at very least 591 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,000 read what I'd written for me to feel good about publishing it. 592 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,520 I approached her with that a few times and she, the first few 593 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,040 times she was like, just absolutely not interested. 594 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,880 She was like, I really can't do it and I don't want to do it. 595 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,800 She expressed a lot of belief in me but wasn't willing. 596 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,600 And so then this last maybe 3 months, 3-4 months, I approached 597 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,160 her again and I said, what if I send it to you like 1 chapter at 598 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,080 a time? And we talk about every single 599 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,320 chapter and like, if you see something in there that you're 600 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,480 remembering differently, you tell me. 601 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,000 If there's something in there I've written that you're 602 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,880 uncomfortable with, please tell me. 603 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,160 We are just going to team on this and hold hands through it. 604 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,880 And she agreed to that. And it's been really beautiful 605 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,160 and healing, even if my book didn't get published and come 606 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,280 into existence. Like the hugest success in the 607 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,600 world is that we're friends. For like the first time in my 608 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,080 life, I don't think we've ever been friends. 609 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:30,800 And so that's been wildly a gift that I did not anticipate. 610 00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:34,040 Yeah. Tell me more about the book. 611 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,600 So you said it's it's a bit of your story. 612 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,760 Sounds like you have some other stories in there as well. 613 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,160 Yeah. So initially what I did was I 614 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,960 had created a program that I guess you could call it an 615 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,480 expressive arts program for Ldas and NP ES. 616 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,880 And I think probably it would it would spill over into the donor 617 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,240 conceived population as well. And so I had that on my website, 618 00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:01,760 itwas@latediscoveryadoptees.com. It's still up there. 619 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,880 So I had that up there for free. And I had also created like a 620 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,880 visual map of how my recovery had went. 621 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,920 And then I also had started like going to support groups and 622 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,120 working one-on-one with individuals. 623 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,760 And I was always doing like checks and balances. 624 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,440 Like, is what I mapped for myself common? 625 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,760 Are other people taking these same steps to recovery? 626 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,880 And it seemed like what I had created really did resonate with 627 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,240 people. And so that actually just kind 628 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:36,480 of inspired me that I wanted it out in the world. 629 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,960 And then my husband, of course, is just like the most incredible 630 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,480 cheerleading, supporting kind of a human. 631 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:46,760 And so part way through the pandemic, he was like, I don't 632 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,160 know why you're not using your extra time to write a book. 633 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,640 Like, why aren't you writing your book? 634 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,920 Everybody needs to hear your story. 635 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,680 And you know what now is also other people's stories and for 636 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,400 that to just exist in the world. So I think because I am a little 637 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,600 bit academic, I think it felt maybe a little bit too 638 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,240 vulnerable to just write my story and be like, OK, here's my 639 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:12,760 memoir. So instead I did all this tap 640 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,040 dancing around like, here's the process. 641 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,280 And but for each, for each thing that I'm talking about, I do 642 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,880 actually share my own story and my own anecdotes. 643 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,160 And, and I think it allowed me to do that in little bite sizes 644 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,800 that were manageable for me. Is it actually like a guide? 645 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,920 Does it take people through discovery, through making 646 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,520 contact with family? Yeah. 647 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,440 In the opening, we talk about sort of all the language around 648 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,800 it, like what is NPE, what is you know, LDA, etcetera, 649 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,120 etcetera. So we sort of like lay the 650 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,000 groundwork for like what are we talking about? 651 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,800 And that it's going to be from my perspective and from the 652 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,440 perspective of other people like me. 653 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,880 Then there's a section where others have written their 654 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,880 stories and shared them. The next section talks about 655 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,320 taking care of yourself while you're going through the book 656 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,680 because it's hard work. Like this is not an easy 657 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,800 journey. And so we really want to be set 658 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,360 up to take care of ourselves. The next bit outlines the 659 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,880 damage. Like what it what's the damage 660 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,440 done? Because you can't heal something 661 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,800 if you don't know it's broken. So we go through all of that and 662 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,040 it hurts. It's not an easy read, I'm not 663 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,560 going to lie. But we talk about what's been 664 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,880 hurt. And then for each of those 665 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,680 sections, I give my personal experience and others who wrote 666 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,360 in also wrote in according to those prompts. 667 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,320 And so you'll hear the experience of other people. 668 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,880 And then I outline what's the task? 669 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,680 What is it we're trying to heal in one sentence. 670 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,880 And then often what follows that is an experiential activity. 671 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,880 It is sort of an invitation that if you want to dig into this a 672 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,440 little bit deeper, here's what that looks like or could look 673 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,040 like. So then following that, it is a 674 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,680 long book. It's a big boy. 675 00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:12,880 It's not, it's not little Following that is the map that 676 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,760 I've created. And it really is very much like, 677 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,000 OK, you can identify what stage you're in and it's sort of is 678 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,600 clusters of things that you're feeling or doing or thinking. 679 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,160 And then there's another cluster of things, feelings, doings and 680 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,680 a person can cycle through. I actually think people cycle 681 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,160 through those stages with every discovery because right, we have 682 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,760 the initial huge discovery that turns everything upside down. 683 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:44,160 But then what? Right when I when I heard that 684 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,800 is French, Belgian, that was another discovery. 685 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,840 When I heard, OK, he had a daughter he also put up for 686 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,640 adoption, that was another discovery. 687 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,360 And so each one of those pieces, there's a process to integrating 688 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,920 the information and getting to a place of being OK with it. 689 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,280 And so that's there. There's a whole section of 690 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,320 medicine sort of exploring different modalities of healing 691 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,040 that are also sprinkled all through the book. 692 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,360 But there's like a little summary of that. 693 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,720 And then I did something really brave and I wrote a section for 694 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:20,760 the adoptive parents and families and people keeping the 695 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,560 secret. And the reason I did that was 696 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:28,440 because just in talking with people in my community, more 697 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,560 than half the time when I bring up this topic, someone says they 698 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,360 know someone who it's being kept from and their heart stops. 699 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,880 And they tell me about this and my heart stops and they go, but 700 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,800 it's not my place to tell them. And I go, aha, I've heard that a 701 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:49,160 lot. And so I'm hoping what comes of 702 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:54,400 it is that people understand more deeply what's happening 703 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,760 because it's a really big and common issue. 704 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,680 And I'm also hopeful that families can repair. 705 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,680 Like, it's taken 11 years for my mom and I to repair. 706 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,720 And that's happened because we both got to a place where we 707 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:11,920 were able to do that and find a way of doing that. 708 00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:15,000 But boy, I would have liked it to happen sooner. 709 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,400 Oh yeah? Well, I'm excited to read the 710 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,480 book when it's published, and we'll be sure to include 711 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,360 information in the show notes for anyone who's listening when 712 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,360 it's released. I did want to ask you for your 713 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,600 perspective because you have read so many stories for this 714 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,080 book. You're sharing so many stories, 715 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,840 and you've been part of this community for a long time now. 716 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:44,680 Is there a difference in the impact when, for example, your 717 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:49,720 mother told you she did come forward versus the people that 718 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:55,080 take the test and then have some difficult questions to ask? 719 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,320 I assume there's tons of similarities, but I'm curious 720 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,520 your take on what the similarities are or if there are 721 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:03,360 differences. It's. 722 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,200 A really interesting question. I'm sure during this podcast, 723 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,840 you hear the story all the time of like when people bring 724 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:15,240 forward the results. I think in in people that I 725 00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,560 talked to whose family continue to deny it. 726 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,720 I mean, I find it really shocking the number of people 727 00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:25,520 that say, well, those tests are garbage, they don't work. 728 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:31,480 They must have made a mistake. I just think wow, of all the 729 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:36,440 times and opportunities that you could take to repair and own it, 730 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,960 that was it. That that was that was the off 731 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,000 ramp or on ramp, depending how you want to look at it. 732 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:48,480 I think there's a lot of anger there, a lot more anger because 733 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,480 I think it might be comparable to how I felt when when I had 734 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,960 the information, but my mom wasn't willing to talk about it 735 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,360 or share anything. The sense of powerlessness and 736 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:04,600 despair is so great that I, I imagine for somebody who's 737 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,680 finding out by DNA, that would be similar. 738 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,280 Yeah. Yeah. 739 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,040 I just want to say I I just think the more resources the 740 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,680 better for this community. So I'm just so happy to hear 741 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,080 that there's going to be another one that can resonate for 742 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,200 people. You also mentioned that you are 743 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,800 doing some consulting for a film about the NPE experience. 744 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,400 Do you want to share a little bit about that? 745 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,960 Yeah. I, I'd love to, this director 746 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,680 writer got in touch with me during the pandemic and he is so 747 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,640 lovely. And I'm not allowed to say his 748 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,880 name. I talked to him before and I'm 749 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,080 like, how much am I allowed to say? 750 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,560 He's like no names. And he's been working on this 751 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,440 passion project since then. He had written a script at that 752 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,360 point and he just sort of, he really wants to do it justice. 753 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:53,840 He wants to do our story justice. 754 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,400 He wants it to be accurate. He wants for our feelings to 755 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,280 come forward and for it to not just be a part of the adoption 756 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,560 propaganda machine that makes everything beautiful. 757 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,800 And so the first script that he had brought forward, he fondly 758 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,800 remembered in the summer we were together. 759 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,320 He goes, remember I told you and you said that would never 760 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,960 happen. That was my feedback for him. 761 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,040 And now I think, wow, I probably sounded so weird, but it was 762 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,480 what he wanted and it's why we became friends is he wanted to 763 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,160 really do us justice. He's heard all about my story in 764 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,640 great detail and we've written the script quite a few times, 765 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,720 but I think he's landed on one that we're all really happy 766 00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:37,720 with. Like, I couldn't believe how 767 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:41,720 well he integrated the feelings and the symbolism. 768 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,280 It's going to be incredible. Oh that's so exciting and just 769 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:52,360 how awesome to really want to do these stories justice. 770 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:58,160 I think so often we see NP, ES and adoption and DNA surprises 771 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:03,320 in the media and it's used as a plot device to just throw a 772 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,160 little twist in there. But there's none of the fallout. 773 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,640 And people tend to just get over it really quickly. 774 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,040 They tend to just accept this wild new information about 775 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:15,680 themselves. So that's great. 776 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,640 And kudos to you for for voicing, hey, that would never 777 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,000 happen, you know? That's. 778 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,000 Really great. What advice do you have for a 779 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,640 parent who is keeping adna surprise from their child? 780 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:34,200 Oh, it would be to tell it. I mean, that's the really simple 781 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,280 short answer. And if you can't tell it because 782 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,880 you're just not ready yet, then go talk to somebody about how to 783 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,320 tell it. And then tell it. 784 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,920 What advice do you have for someone who just uncovered Adna 785 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,120 Surprise? Probably to go slow. 786 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,080 I'm guilty of this. This is why I can say this. 787 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,080 I think it's really human nature to want to jump to the end part. 788 00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,480 And I don't just mean reunion, I mean jumping to this part where 789 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,280 you go, OK, I'm done, everything's fine. 790 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:08,040 I've I've cried, I've been mad. I did the thing and and we're 791 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,400 good now. Or to rush to try and like make 792 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,000 everything OK with the people that raised you. 793 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,600 Or like, just don't rush. Just take your time, take 794 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,600 breaks. Yeah. 795 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,000 Megan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and 796 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,880 sharing your perspective. I love hearing stories of people 797 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,560 that have been in this for years, and I think it gives 798 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,680 people a lot of hope to see where you can end up. 799 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:38,080 Even when we've had complicated beginnings to our lives, you can 800 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,480 still reach a place of healing and growth and then helping 801 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,480 others. So thank you for reaching into 802 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,600 the community and. Lending your support. 803 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,720 Thank you. Thank you for having such a 804 00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:52,560 podcast like this. Just being able to tell their 805 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,160 stories I think is such a big part of healing so that we're 806 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,720 not alone and there's little bits of things we can learn from 807 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:03,480 each other. Thanks again to Megan for 808 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,960 sharing her story. If you have Adna Surprise that 809 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,480 you'd like to share, please submit your story at 810 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,160 dnasurprises.com and be sure to join me over on 811 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:18,320 patreon@patreon.com/DNA Surprises for early ad free 812 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:24,120 access to episodes. Until next time, this episode of 813 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:28,680 DNA Surprises was hosted, produced, and edited by me, 814 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,480 Alexis Ourselt. It was mixed and mastered by 815 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,720 Josh Ourselt of Siren Recording Studios.