1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,760 Along the way, I, I, my wife and I would always say how different 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,480 I was and I would always say, I don't feel like I even belong 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,640 there. And I know I've listened to 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,040 quite a few of the podcast and people say that. 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,080 And it was really reassuring in many ways to hear other people 6 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:20,960 say that because I, I carried a lot of guilt for that through 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,880 the years of, oh, I just don't feel like I belong here. 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,880 What, what's wrong with me? You know, and I, I felt really 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,920 guilty about that. And I think had I known I was 10 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,040 adopted, that would have been such a help many years ago to 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:38,760 know, hey, it's OK, you're different. 12 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,360 There's a reason why you might feel or you think you're 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,360 different than us and behave differently and whatnot, because 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,640 there's a reason for it. But I didn't know that. 15 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,040 And then I, I carried this guilt for years and years and years. 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,480 So it's not like I'm playing the results now saying, see, I, I, I 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,920 feel like I didn't belong. I mean, I said that for years 18 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:03,680 and years. Welcome to DNA Surprises, a 19 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,080 podcast that delves into the world of unexpected DNA 20 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,720 discoveries. I'm your host, Alexis ourselves. 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,760 In July 2021, my life took a surprising turn when I found out 22 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,560 that I'm an NPE, a person who has experienced a non paternal 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,880 event. In other words, my biological 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,160 father isn't who I thought he was. 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,920 Join me as we explore the stories of NP, ES, adoptees and 26 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,440 donor conceived people and their families. 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,440 Get ready to unravel the astonishing journeys that begin 28 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,760 with a simple DNA test. This is DNA surprises. 29 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,520 How often do we hear on this show that people never felt like 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,560 they fit in with their families growing up? 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,000 This week's guest, John, reveals that he felt the same way and 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,640 even held on to some guilt around his feelings. 33 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,400 Fast forward to a little over two years ago when his daughter 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,639 took ADNA test and unearthed a surprise for the entire family. 35 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,000 John wasn't biologically related to any of the family he grew up 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,240 with because he was adopted as a newborn. 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,640 John shares how this discovery has affected him and the steps 38 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:24,320 he took to uncover more information about his origin 39 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,560 story. While he hasn't connected with 40 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,840 his biological parents and doesn't particularly feel the 41 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,440 need to, he also discusses why he's open to changing his 42 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,080 position, especially for his children. 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,720 Thank you for sharing your story, John. 44 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,120 John, I'm 60 years old and I'm from New Jersey. 45 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:51,640 It started innocently enough with my daughter taking ADNA 46 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:54,320 test. She did one of the over the 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:59,600 counter DNA test. And the reason she did it was 48 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:01,880 more of a kind of a joke, if you will. 49 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,320 So my dad used to tease my kid, my children. 50 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,360 I have three children and my dad used to tease them saying yeah, 51 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,560 I'm from here, I'm from there. Because he didn't know where he 52 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,280 was from. He didn't know his ethnicity, so 53 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,080 every time he would talk to them, it would change because he 54 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,960 was just being silly. So as when my youngest got 55 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,000 older, she's like, well, I'm going to find out what the heck 56 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,960 we really are. So she went and and took a test 57 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,240 and it came back. Basically, she's 100% Irish, 58 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,520 which we had a lot of laughs about. 59 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,640 It was a lot of fun. And it was like, you know, we 60 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,560 knew my wife was Irish but never thought we were Irish on my side 61 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,800 of the family. What did you think you were 62 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:54,200 before? My mom was half Italian, half 63 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,160 Polish and some other things, but she was basically raised 64 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,560 Italian. And then my father would 65 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:06,880 primarily say he was German, sometimes French and Austrian. 66 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,880 What you know that that neck of the woods? 67 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,560 But then my daughter came back like 90 something percent Irish 68 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,720 and it was like, what the heck is that? 69 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,279 So you all had a good, good laugh about it and and she's 70 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,040 like, dad, you got to go take this test. 71 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,560 Just find out what the heck you are. 72 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,040 So I'm like, sure, what harm could that do? 73 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:34,320 So who knew? This last word and so your 74 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,640 daughter, she told you, OK, go take this test, figure out 75 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,760 what's going on with you because obviously her mother, your 76 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,680 daughter's mother is obviously largely Irish as well. 77 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:52,680 When you saw her results did anything like Ping for you? 78 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,040 Were you like that doesn't line up with what my mom said she 79 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,360 was. Yeah. 80 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,240 And I, I, I think I have a good history now that maybe ignoring 81 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,920 red flags along the way, didn't really think too much about it, 82 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,200 to be honest with you. I'm like, my parents were not 83 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,000 very forthcoming with any information. 84 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,160 They're kind of secretive. So it was certainly surprising, 85 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,720 but kind of learning new information, par for the course. 86 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,200 And we really didn't pay any attention to like DNA 87 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,000 connections at this time. It was really more about the 88 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,120 ethnicity. It was right around or right 89 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,280 before the pandemic started. My, my daughter got the results. 90 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,280 So I'm like, all right, I'll go get a test and take it. 91 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:46,800 And so I, I took the test and then the results came back right 92 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,480 around the, the start of the pandemic. 93 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,280 And the reason I'm calling that out is right around that time, 94 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,920 my mother kind of had a breakdown and she went from very 95 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:03,120 early dementia to like full blown dementia where, you know, 96 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,760 it's kind of like as almost as bad as it gets type of thing. 97 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,560 So couldn't really even have a conversation with her during the 98 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,120 early part of the pandemic. We had to get her into assisted 99 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,600 living. She couldn't live by herself. 100 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,640 She needed full time help. So it was really bad. 101 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,720 But I call that out just from the standpoint of couldn't even 102 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:23,080 ask her any questions about any of the results. 103 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,440 So then I get my results back and you know, I still have some 104 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,160 of the Italian in there, but I'm like half Irish, right? 105 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,680 Which kind of aligns up with my daughter's results. 106 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,320 Obviously, again, didn't do a whole lot with it. 107 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,320 Couldn't ask my mother any questions at this point. 108 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,760 So it just kind of kind of sat there for a while. 109 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:56,000 We had a lot of questions, but really couldn't ask anybody. 110 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,320 My mom has three siblings, couple of them are in their 111 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,480 80's, the ones in their late 70s. 112 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,760 So communication starting to get difficult with that generation. 113 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,200 So we just kind of sat on it. Another red flag that I ignored 114 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,440 was the fact that I really didn't connect with anybody I 115 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,760 knew. Didn't have any any real close 116 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,960 connections save for one. And we'll get to that later. 117 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,800 But no, like, no names that I knew, but not anybody even close 118 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,760 in the family tree. So they were so far distant 119 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,240 that, all right, these names might make sense. 120 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,280 They're like second, third, fourth, you know, Cousins twice. 121 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,320 Removed So you're just thinking maybe nobody close to you took 122 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,640 the test so there was nothing surprising you didn't have a 123 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,880 sibling or a first cousin or anyone show up that you didn't 124 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,360 know. Exactly, exactly. 125 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:54,480 So there were other irregularities, if you will. 126 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,920 My birth certificate looks very different than my wife's. 127 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,960 We were born geographically close to each other, same 128 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,720 county, but our birth certificates look very 129 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,920 different. My wife's was issued, you know, 130 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,120 a month or two after she was born. 131 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,600 Mine was issued 14 months after I was born. 132 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:22,800 And they look different, but they both have our legal names 133 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,680 on it with our parents names on it. 134 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,480 So, you know, we always question that, but not too deeply. 135 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,840 You know, it's just one of those oddities. 136 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:37,080 Again, maybe another red flag that I, you know, conveniently 137 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,880 ignored. Fast forward to 2023. 138 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,880 My mom's been in a sister living for three years and she passes 139 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,360 away. A cousin of mine came up for the 140 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,560 funeral, stayed at our house. The day she was leaving was the 141 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:56,240 day after the funeral. I said, you know, just for 142 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:01,200 giggles when you get home, it just, her mom couldn't travel to 143 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,960 the funeral 'cause she's just, you know, too old at this point. 144 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,640 I said, when you get home to, they live in North Carolina. 145 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,880 I said, when you get home, ask your mom, you know, just for 146 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,480 giggles. It was I adopted, ha ha ha, you 147 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,960 know, type of thing. So she gets home two days later 148 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,040 and she calls my wife up. And my wife was at the store, 149 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,080 and she's like, give me a call when you get home, you know? 150 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,800 So my wife comes home, she calls up my cousin. 151 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,360 And it's like, yeah, I did talk to my mom. 152 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,520 And it turns out John is adopted. 153 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:38,680 So literally, you know, two days after my mother's funeral, I got 154 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:42,040 the news that I was in fact adopted. 155 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,880 So, you know, kind of like a bombshell going going off at 156 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,200 that time. Yeah. 157 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,840 So what part of you, I mean, you kind of said it as like this 158 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,200 throwaway comment. Hey, just just ask your mom, 159 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,000 like was I adopted? Was there some? 160 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,040 I mean, obviously there was some part of you, but was that 161 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,520 thought coming more to the top of your mind or what made you 162 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,960 ask her that? Well, she was staying at her 163 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,680 house for a couple of days and we got to talking about, you 164 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,640 know, the family history and whatnot. 165 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,720 And then she mentioned she was in fact on Ancestry. 166 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,400 And I said, well, I took Ancestry and we didn't connect. 167 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,600 So you know why is that? You know so? 168 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,560 OK. So well, that's that's pretty 169 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:38,160 odd. You know what what's going on 170 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,760 here? So either there's a there's a 171 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,040 mistake here or, you know, there's something something 172 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,160 wrong. So, yeah. 173 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,400 So she went home. And, you know, at the same time, 174 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,880 my aunts and uncles, you know, they're calling me because, you 175 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,880 know, they're offering condolences about my mom passing 176 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,240 away. And then I'm using it as an 177 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,640 opportunity. Oh, by the way, let me ask you a 178 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,640 couple of questions about my. It became a whole different 179 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,880 conversation. So then I was scheduling time to 180 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,640 to talk to them, to just try and get some facts around the 181 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,360 situation and just 'cause I knew nothing, literally knew nothing 182 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,080 about anything about the situation. 183 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:28,840 And while I always may have had some suspicions or just thoughts 184 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:34,120 or questions, you know, once it once it becomes a reality, it's 185 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,560 for me at least, it was like, you know, a bomb going off. 186 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,000 Absolutely. So your cousin goes home, calls 187 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,600 your wife, says give me a call when you're at home, not at the 188 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,160 grocery store. And. 189 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,240 Drops this bombshell. What is your first thought 190 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,960 first? Of all, I was like, why I was 191 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,440 never told, You know why? Why didn't they tell me? 192 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,880 Why the secret it you know, I felt like I had a right to know. 193 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,760 Obviously now my parents were my large, very secretive people. 194 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,240 So this was their decision is not shocking to me that they 195 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:20,880 didn't tell me, but it was the not telling me and the fact that 196 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,000 OK, well, now both my parents have passed away, so I have no 197 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,400 ability to even ask them a question. 198 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,800 I don't know, you know, how much they had to offer per SE, but it 199 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,800 just felt like I have no recourse now to get additional 200 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:41,240 information for my parents. And so that was probably what I 201 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,480 was thinking about. I was trying to think about how 202 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,360 can I get information elsewhere. It's one of the things I, I 203 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,520 found like very, very early on through all this. 204 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:49,960 It's like you want to take action. 205 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,880 You want to do something to feel like you're in control of it, 206 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,520 because you feel like you're out of control, like things are 207 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,760 beyond your control. So by taking action, you feel 208 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,080 like you're getting your arms around the situation, which may 209 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,240 or may not be true, but at least I felt like I had to do 210 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,640 something. Were you able to learn anything 211 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,400 from the aunts and uncles and other family members that you 212 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:18,960 connected with? Yeah, so I talked to two uncles 213 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,440 and one aunt. My mom has two brothers that are 214 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:26,920 living and and one sister. Honestly, they didn't have much 215 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:32,920 much information other than the fact that my my mom and dad were 216 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,000 living with my grandfather at the time and my one uncle was 217 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,960 much younger so he was like 17 or 18 at the time. 218 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,560 When they brought me home from the hospital he said, you know, 219 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:48,080 they didn't really talk to him. He was like a 17 year old kid at 220 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,600 the time. But the one piece of information 221 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,160 that was useful was 60 years ago. 222 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,760 But he said, I remember them talking about Catholic 223 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,040 Charities. So that was very helpful. 224 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,080 What I did was I looked up Catholic Charities then on the 225 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:08,960 Internet and fired off an e-mail to the Archdiocese of Newark. 226 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,680 And they came back to me within an hour saying literally within 227 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,480 an hour saying you got to reach out to this person or here's an 228 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,280 e-mail address for someone that maintains, you know, all of our 229 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,680 archives. So send another e-mail out to 230 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,080 the archive place. And with an hour, I get a phone 231 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,200 call from some woman who manages all the archives for North 232 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,440 Jersey. And I, I tell her my story. 233 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,680 And she said, well, if they went through Catholic Charities, 234 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,680 there's a chance that there's a file here. 235 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,880 It's $200.00 or $250 for us to research it, blah, blah, blah. 236 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,600 But she said let me do this. Let me go see if I could find a 237 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,000 file on you. If I find something, I'll let 238 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,040 you know. Then you can fill out the 239 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,440 paperwork, submit it, and we'll go from there. 240 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,560 Same day she calls me back. She's like, I found a file on 241 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,240 you and I read it and I think you should fill out the 242 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,240 application and send in the check. 243 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,080 So this was like March. So I did all that and then about 244 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,440 a month later I get a report back. 245 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,840 So what she did was she took all the file and she typed up like a 246 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,560 two or three page report on the situation. 247 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,200 And it gives me the details of what happened, at least from 248 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:34,720 their perspective. And so apparently my biological 249 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,480 mother was a a sophomore in high school, and I guess she went 250 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:48,280 with her parents to the church and talked about putting the 251 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,520 child up for adoption. The father's parents also came 252 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,720 in and there seemed to be, obviously, if you could imagine 253 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,920 a little tension there between the two families. 254 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,720 But the bottom line is, I guess it was decided that she would 255 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,800 have the child. She went into a convent 256 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,000 somewhere or a home for these type of situations. 257 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,920 But it sounded like some sort of convent, got taken out of 258 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,960 school, put into the convent and then apparently had the baby. 259 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:27,440 And then my parents that adopted me were able to Take Me Home 260 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,240 from the hospital. They took me home from the 261 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,400 hospital, you know, like to whatever it is back then two or 262 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,880 three days later. And then for the next year they 263 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:43,040 had follow up visits with the Catholic Charities to see how 264 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,120 they're doing and, you know, make sure there's nothing 265 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,520 nefarious going on. And then it looks like after a 266 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,720 year they were able to get title to me, so. 267 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,120 Sure, hence the birth certificate. 268 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,160 Exactly. So that's when the new birth 269 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,000 certificate was issued a year, like 14 months later. 270 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:06,040 OK, well this is a lot for you to take in, I imagine, like 271 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:10,079 reading all of this and reading, you know how you came to be did 272 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:15,040 did the write up list your mother's name, your birth 273 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,440 mother's name? The woman who wrote the report, 274 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,079 she she rewrote it from the file so she didn't have to redact any 275 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:23,720 information. She would only put the first 276 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,920 name down of the birth mother and first name of the father. 277 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,320 But what I was able to do though, I guess in the state of 278 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,840 New Jersey, you're able to apply to the state to see if in fact 279 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,520 an original birth certificate was created. 280 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,680 So I mailed away to capital, which is Trent and where these 281 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,680 records are kept. And there was in fact, I, I was 282 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,240 named and there was a birth certificate by the biological 283 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,320 parents. So I, you know, it was born 284 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,800 under one name. But then when my parents got me, 285 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,960 I guess three days later they name me something else. 286 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,600 And then fourteen months later, that was a second birth 287 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,640 certificate. So the original birth 288 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:14,200 certificate gave me the mother's name, first and last name. 289 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,320 So I got the mother's name on the birth certificate and no, no 290 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,440 father's name. OK, so he was not listed once 291 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:29,680 you saw her name, did you want to find her? 292 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,360 So, you know, back to my earlier comment, like, yeah, I wanted to 293 00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:36,240 do things. I wanted to take some action. 294 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,800 So between myself and then, you know, my kids are all like, I 295 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,680 have three children, 2 girls and a boy. 296 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,560 And the girls were very into like finding things out and 297 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,240 snooping on the Internet and doing all this research and 298 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,800 trying to find the biological mom and dad. 299 00:18:54,560 --> 00:19:00,800 So part of me was was yes. But the longer I went on or went 300 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,440 through this process, the less I wanted to do, if that makes any 301 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,840 sense. I, which seems to be a little 302 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,400 counter to some of the other people I've heard or listened to 303 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,640 on various podcasts that seem to be more gung ho about finding 304 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,560 information than I. I feel early on, I feel like I 305 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,240 was being pressured and that might not be the right word, but 306 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,320 I felt like everyone around me wanted to know more. 307 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,080 So I felt like I was being pulled into this. 308 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:31,720 We got to get more information. We got to find out what's going 309 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,120 on. And while I would like to have 310 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,720 maybe more data, I'm very uncomfortable. 311 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,520 And maybe it's just my personality, but I'm very 312 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,280 uncomfortable continuing to pursue it. 313 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,880 So as time went on, I, I, I kind of pulled back from doing a lot 314 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,080 of that. That's totally fair, right? 315 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,440 Because it's your life and it's your story to kind of try to 316 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,560 navigate and get more information or not. 317 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:04,080 So you said your daughters were very sleuthy and trying to find 318 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,960 information. Did they identify the biological 319 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,880 mother or did they stop at your request? 320 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,120 Both so there was the only like kind of close connection. 321 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:22,680 There was a half connection or a half sister on ancestry. 322 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,120 So early on I, I sent an e-mail to this person like, hey, looks 323 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:33,080 like we might be half brother and sister. 324 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,640 Do do you know anything just, you know, kind of left it wide 325 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,200 open for whatever information you want to get back to me. 326 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,040 And what came back was lukewarm at best. 327 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,560 I'm paraphrasing now, but it wasn't like, hey, I've been 328 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,160 looking for you my whole life. We can glad to hear it wasn't 329 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,760 that. It was. 330 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,720 No, I really don't know anything. 331 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,880 It looks like I might be your niece, but if you find anything 332 00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:59,360 out, let me know. I mean it. 333 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:05,560 It was like short, sweet, very cold, and it felt unwelcoming. 334 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:10,040 Now, I could be reading it totally wrong, but I took it 335 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:11,640 that way and I was like, well, you know what? 336 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,880 I'm not going to, I'm not going to pursue it. 337 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,840 But with that information of the connection, my daughter's used 338 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,720 that to kind of keep their sleuthing going on. 339 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:28,240 And they found the biological mother, the woman of Catholic 340 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,920 Charities. She was wonderful in dealing 341 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,680 with me. She couldn't have been nicer. 342 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,320 And she would periodically call me up to see how I'm doing 343 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,800 because she knows, you know, this is a lot. 344 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,160 And she really went out of her way just to be nice to me. 345 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,920 And I can't say enough nice things about her, you know? 346 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,400 And so she asked me how things are going. 347 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,040 And I kind of told her this story. 348 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:55,280 And she said, you know, if you find your biological mother, we 349 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,240 could serve as an intermediary if you like. 350 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,200 We, we would reach out to them if, if you're so inclined, if 351 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,160 you're uncomfortable doing it. And that appealed to me more 352 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,520 than me reaching out because I am by nature a little bit shy 353 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,000 and I, I would have been very uncomfortable calling up and 354 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,640 say, hey, mom, Remember Me. So she offered to write the kind 355 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,560 of a generic letter saying, you know, would you be interested in 356 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,240 connecting type of thing and sent 2 certified letters and 357 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:30,680 basically no response. OK, Now, could it could it have 358 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,720 not been received? Possibly. 359 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,040 But I will say my, you know, my daughters and my wife feel good 360 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,920 about their sleuthing skills. So they think they had the right 361 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,080 address. So at that point, I kind of told 362 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,120 everyone, listen, I, I don't want you reaching out. 363 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,360 If anyone's going to reach out, it's going to be me. 364 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,360 Stand down. If someone's going to reach out, 365 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:52,960 I'll do it when I see fit, how I see fit. 366 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,280 But I don't want you guys, you know, kind of stirring up the 367 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,920 pot right now. And they respected that. 368 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,800 So, so that's kind of the end of the story, if you will, as far 369 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,400 as researching people and, and trying to find out anything. 370 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,840 How did you feel when you didn't get a response? 371 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:16,160 Were you hoping for a response? Were you sort of OK and 372 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,400 accepting of whatever outcome? Yeah, maybe a little of both. 373 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,160 You know, part of me wanted to know, but part of me like, do I 374 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,880 really want to get in? Do I really want to do this 375 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,000 where I know I've heard other people like they're so excited 376 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,200 and can't wait to meet biological mom and sister and 377 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,400 this and that It were. I was more scared, afraid of the 378 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,720 unknown. You know, I don't have 379 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,520 tremendously close relationships with my my sisters. 380 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,320 So how many other bad relationships do you need? 381 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,320 You know, so, so, you know, part of me was like, yeah, if, if I 382 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,480 knew it was going to be wonderful, I would jump into it. 383 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,160 But that hasn't been my experience per SE. 384 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,760 So maybe a little disappointment, but a little 385 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,280 relief at the same time did. You know anyone who was adopted 386 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:15,360 or you know friends, family, or was this all new to you? 387 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:18,600 Because like you said, you uncovered you could do a request 388 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,160 for your original birth certificate in the state of New 389 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,520 Jersey and you found Catholic Charities and you're doing all 390 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,400 of this research. Did you have anything to go off 391 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,440 of when you were starting this? NO0II. 392 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,920 And I may be missing a lot that I don't know about, but no, I 393 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,880 don't. I didn't know anyone who was 394 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,840 adopted who went through this who could provide any, any 395 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,720 guidance. It seemed to happen fairly 396 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,840 easily, finding some of this stuff. 397 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,040 But yeah, I really didn't know what I was doing. 398 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,280 I'm looking into this and I had no help, you know? 399 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,960 So your sisters, you mentioned that you have sisters. 400 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,520 To your knowledge, are they the biological children of your 401 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,560 parents? Yeah, so it this is a like a 402 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:09,040 little weird 1 So my parents were married in 1958 and then 403 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:17,000 they adopted me in 64 late 64. So, you know, 6 plus years later 404 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:23,880 and then I have two sisters 17 years younger and the other is 8 405 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,400 years younger than me. So big gap between us. 406 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,880 The youngest 1 is a bit estranged, but the, the older of 407 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,240 the two, we communicate a little bit. 408 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,760 So I, I told her the story and you know, her first rejection is 409 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,640 like, Oh my God, I thought I was the one who was adopted, you 410 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,040 know, because she, she's got blonde hair that, you know, 411 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,440 everyone else had dark hair. She had blonde hair. 412 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,280 But I, I actually remember my mom being pregnant with them. 413 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:59,120 So, so I, I, you know, they're biological children. 414 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,600 Growing up, did you ever feel like you didn't quite fit in? 415 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,200 You know, we hear that a lot, right? 416 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,960 But for some people, they really didn't know. 417 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,720 Yeah, 1000%. That's something my wife and I 418 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,680 talked about even for years and years, how I felt like I did not 419 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,640 belong. And maybe part of it's my 420 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,800 personality. Very, very different than my 421 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,920 parents. Especially my dad was very 422 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,680 gregarious. He walked in the room. 423 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,040 He was the loud one, the funny one, but a totally different 424 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,560 sense of humor than myself. I couldn't be more different. 425 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,920 My father like basically built an addition on our house and I 426 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,360 can't even screw in a light bulb. 427 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,560 I mean it's just night and date different. 428 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,800 He must have been so disappointed. 429 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,440 In fact, I couldn't help him with it, couldn't even deliver 430 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,040 the right tool when he asked me for it. 431 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,000 I mean no exaggeration. I just had no inclination. 432 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,400 To this day, I, so along the way, I, I, my wife and I would 433 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,760 always say how different I was and I would always say I don't 434 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:08,200 feel like I even belong there. And I know I've listened to 435 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,600 quite a few of the podcast and people say that. 436 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,640 And it was really reassuring in many ways to hear other people 437 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,640 say that because I carried a lot of guilt for that through the 438 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,440 years of, Oh, I just don't feel like I belong here. 439 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,440 What, what's wrong with me? You know, and I, I felt really 440 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,440 guilty about that. And I think had I known I was 441 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,600 adopted, that would have been such a help many years ago to 442 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,320 know, hey, it's OK, you're different. 443 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,880 There's a reason why you might feel or you think you're 444 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,880 different than us and behave differently and whatnot, because 445 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,160 there's a reason for it. But I didn't know that. 446 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,600 And then I, I carried this guilt for years and years and years. 447 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,000 So it's not like I'm playing the results now saying, see, I, I 448 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,440 feel like I didn't belong. I mean, I said that for years 449 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,360 and years. Did you have any anger towards 450 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:07,960 your parents for keeping this from you or empathy? 451 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,960 Yeah, so, and this is something my wife and I talk about a lot. 452 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:15,600 She's angry, but my wife is angry about it. 453 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,840 And we've been together since I'm 17. 454 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,640 So we've we grew up together essentially, right. 455 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,240 She's angry from, I think being protective of me standpoint, you 456 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,760 know, so and I get that, but I'm not angry. 457 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,720 And I don't know if that's the right emotion or wrong emotion, 458 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,520 but I, I know, I know my parents loved me. 459 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,440 It wasn't that they didn't love me. 460 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,400 So I think they came at it from, in their opinion, they, they, 461 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,560 they felt that was the best choice not to tell me. 462 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,600 They didn't want me to feel different. 463 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,600 They wanted me to feel like I was, you know, just theirs, 464 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,240 period. And I, I'm speaking to my uncle 465 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,280 who was living with them when he was 17. 466 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,600 You know, they all disagreed with my parents not telling me. 467 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,280 But there's one thing he can say about my father's You couldn't 468 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,160 change his mind. If he felt like that was the 469 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,120 right decision. No one was going to change his 470 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,720 opinion and he just in his opinion was he did not want me 471 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,240 to feel like I was different or not loved. 472 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,960 So so because of that I'm not I don't agree with their decision, 473 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,320 but I don't I don't have any anger over it. 474 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,280 So. Yeah. 475 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,120 And I, you know what? I get enough poems. 476 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,400 I don't need anger, you know, so. 477 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,680 Yeah. And I mean, hey there. 478 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,080 There is no right or wrong emotion. 479 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:42,240 I do think it's really interesting that even back then 480 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,800 the consensus from the family was you should disclose because 481 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,640 we hear sometimes for adoption and especially donor conception 482 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,680 that the advice was if you don't have to tell them, don't you 483 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,480 know, just let them think. So it's interesting that the 484 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,840 family was encouraging them to to disclose to you. 485 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,440 Yeah. And one of the other frustrating 486 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,000 things about all this is, you know, as I've talked to 487 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,480 different cousins, it's like, yeah, everyone knew but me, You 488 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,440 know, like, even though it was supposed to be this big secret, 489 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,360 right, people tell their own children. 490 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,400 They don't have to keep lies up for other people. 491 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,960 So in speaking to my cousins, they're like, we thought you 492 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,920 knew or. Yeah, yeah, we all knew. 493 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,600 And everyone knew but you apparently. 494 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,080 So that's that's it. That's annoying to me for sure. 495 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,720 That's one of the things I was probably most annoyed about from 496 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,440 the standpoint of, as I mentioned earlier, I think I'm 497 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,280 accused and I think it's true that I'm shy and I don't want to 498 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,320 be the maybe center of attention. 499 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,560 And now I feel like I'm the story, like, and maybe most 500 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,960 people don't care. I get it. 501 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,040 But it feels like I'm the story and I don't want to be the 502 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,880 story. Like, oh, here's the adopted guy 503 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,800 who just found out what an idiot, you know? 504 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,840 And you know, you just feel stupid. 505 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,640 You really feel stupid. I've heard that a lot. 506 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,640 You're definitely not alone in that feeling. 507 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,160 I've also talked to people who they don't really tell other 508 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,800 people about their story because they don't want to be the 509 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,120 subject of gossip essentially, right, Like, oh, did you hear 510 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,000 about this or that? You know, even among sometimes 511 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,160 they're friends, they they don't talk about it a lot because they 512 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,320 don't want to be the center of attention or, or have the focus 513 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,160 of this on them. Yeah, that's a good point. 514 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,400 I, I mean, I'm not listen, I'm not going to perpetuate their 515 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,120 lie of not of keeping it a secret per SE. 516 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,200 I don't tend to be the center of attention telling stories about 517 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,160 myself. So, you know, close friends I've 518 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,240 told, but, you know, it's not something that we've a flag 519 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,000 saying I'm an adoptee or something, but I'm not hiding 520 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,200 it. I don't feel like it's an 521 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,080 embarrassment or I'm ashamed of it. 522 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,280 So, so yeah, I, I'm, I'm comfortable with it from a 523 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,320 standpoint of talking about it, but it, it's not something that 524 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,600 it kind of raise up proactively, you know? 525 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:18,880 I'm curious how discovering that you were adopted has played into 526 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,600 or affected your identity. And the reason why I'm asking is 527 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,680 because I noticed that when you were telling your story and 528 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,320 relaying what you learned, you refer to your biological mother 529 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,960 as the birth mother and you refer to yourself as the baby. 530 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,600 So have you internalized the story? 531 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,480 Like do you think of yourself as being part of it or is it kind 532 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,120 of, I don't want to say detached, but is it something 533 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,440 maybe that you haven't integrated into who you are? 534 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,080 It's a good question. I'm not sure I have a good 535 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,600 answer. I feel like I've integrated and 536 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,360 accepted it at this point. Sometimes it gets confusing 537 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,680 telling the story on like Like how do I identify each each 538 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:05,640 person? Sure. 539 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:06,840 No, that's fair. Yeah. 540 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,440 But I feel like as much as I've can come to terms with it, I 541 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,560 feel like I, I got it at this point. 542 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,240 It is what it is. It's, it's not going away. 543 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,600 It's just part of my story now. Although, you know, a lot of 544 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,920 people don't even ask me about it. 545 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,800 Like people that I've told they, it's like for them, it's no big 546 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,720 deal. You know what I mean? 547 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,160 Like no one, no one's ever asked me like a follow up like Hey, 548 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,200 how you doing outside of my wife? 549 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,320 Like so for them it's just no big deal. 550 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,080 Like it's it's hey, you told us you're adopted. 551 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,680 We still love you move on type of thing where meanwhile, my 552 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,440 whole world's blown apart and at least the first year and a half 553 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,680 were quite a struggle. So it's it, it's funny where 554 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,000 people came to would, would say when I told them the story, they 555 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,440 were like, oh, but you're still family. 556 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,160 We love you. And that's like kind of the end 557 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,400 of it in their mind. Meanwhile, internally, you're 558 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,239 you're you're a basket case. You know, sure, Yeah. 559 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,480 Without connecting with your biological mother, have you been 560 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:24,199 able to learn anything, maybe just from like a family history 561 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:29,960 or medical perspective that can maybe inform some of who you are 562 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,199 with this new information? No, really, really nothing. 563 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,280 I mean, the only thing I know is now I'm Irish. 564 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,760 I mean, when I grew up, we were raised Italian and like, in our 565 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,760 neck of the woods, the Italians don't like the Irish. 566 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,920 So like, I couldn't even wear green on Saint Patrick's Day and 567 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,679 now suddenly I'm Irish, you know? 568 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,159 How do you come to terms with that? 569 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:54,239 Like, do you still identify strongly with your Italian, I 570 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,720 mean adopted, but you know, your Italian heritage that you were 571 00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:00,200 raised in, Is that still a big part of who you are? 572 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,840 Well, we eat Italian a lot, but other than that, like, yeah, no, 573 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,320 I guess not really. I mean, it, it's kind of funny. 574 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,320 We we, we, we joke a ton about it. 575 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,120 Suddenly I'm Irish, you know, my wife's family's, they're like 576 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,040 Irish Americans and they, you know, all wave the flag. 577 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,560 And now suddenly I'm on the team. 578 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,520 But before that I was on the wrong team. 579 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,880 But now, now that I can play nice with them. 580 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,160 So yeah, it's it's comical to me in that, that regard. 581 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,720 But I don't have any inkling to, you know, anything about my 582 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,360 family or medical history or anything like that. 583 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,800 And that, that, you know, that's a little frustrating, obviously, 584 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,320 but I, I, you know, it, it is what it is at this point. 585 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,680 Yeah, you took 23andMe, so perhaps you got some medical 586 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,640 insights from taking that. Otherwise, how have you kind of 587 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:01,960 landed to a place of acceptance with the gaps in your 588 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,080 understanding of your background? 589 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:12,040 Well, I mean, I'm just like I said, the first year or two were 590 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,680 tough, right? It's just like 2 years now on 591 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,360 top of like grieving for a parent who dies after having 592 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,120 three years of dementia. And you know, that's not a fun 593 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,840 road to travel. That was a very difficult 594 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,400 period. And then, you know, the passing 595 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,800 of my mom and then, you know, I was the executive of the state. 596 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,560 So he had all that stuff going on and then at the same time the 597 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,000 adoption stuff going on. So it was just busy craziness 598 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,840 for like, you know, six months there. 599 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,960 Once the dust settles and then you start thinking about it, you 600 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,000 know, I, I guess time is the only thing that that heals it, 601 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,480 right. It gets a little bit easier 602 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:54,600 every day. And and, you know, I think, you 603 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,200 know, maybe after a year or so, I I came to grips with, you 604 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,480 know, this is what I know if I learn more or meet anybody along 605 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,480 the way, OK, but I'm more than OK not meeting anybody. 606 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,120 I got enough people that love me around me. 607 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:14,680 My wife is been like the most amazing resource through all 608 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,120 this. You know, she couldn't have been 609 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,800 a better support system through all this. 610 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:27,120 I'm comfortable with it. The one thing I'm evolving my 611 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,800 position on is I think if my children want to reach out, I'm 612 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,000 I'm now of the opinion, listen, they they have a skin in the 613 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,440 game here. Even though it's my life, It's 614 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,240 unfair. I think for of me to say, 615 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,800 listen, don't, don't do anything. 616 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,760 If they want to find out and learn more, have at it. 617 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,680 But just don't expect me to jump in and start meeting people like 618 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,560 that's not what I'm going to do. But I do think it might be 619 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,320 unfair of me to say, listen, don't reach out if if in fact 620 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,160 they want to. I I like that you acknowledge 621 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,280 that your position is evolving on it, and also that you are 622 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,320 thinking about your kids and how maybe this would affect them as 623 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,480 well because it's their genetic history as much as it's yours. 624 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,840 I think it's important, but to recognize what you said, which 625 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,840 is that you work in the midst of grief. 626 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,280 And, you know, with dementia, it's a long grieving process 627 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,920 too. So it's a lot that was thrown at 628 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,120 you to then learn that information in a situation that 629 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,360 would have been a lot for anyone to manage without finding out 630 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,880 that they were adopted in the midst of all of that. 631 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,520 Yeah, the timing could not have been worse, you know? 632 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,680 Yeah. It just wasn't the best time to 633 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,240 learn that because you were already upset. 634 00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:51,120 I was just, there was so much going on. 635 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,400 Your, your nerves are frayed. And then you get this phone 636 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:55,600 call. Are you sitting down? 637 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,320 And it's like, Oh no, you know, it's like it, it was just not 638 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,640 good. Have you connected with anyone 639 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,320 in the adoptee community and has that been helpful to you at all? 640 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,480 The best thing that ever in in this whole process. 641 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,560 I was on a work trip one day up in upstate New York and I 642 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,360 happened to overhear a a Co worker telling someone about 643 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,520 being adopted. And I had known this person for 644 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,640 15 years, never knew she was adopted. 645 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,320 And I literally, literally overheard it, heard like telling 646 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,440 someone else. So when she was finished, I 647 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,520 walked over to her and said, hey, you have a minute, can I 648 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:38,080 pick your brain about something? And she's like, yeah, sure. 649 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,720 So a little while later, we went into a conference room and I 650 00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:44,760 said, listen, I just, I apologize, but I overheard you 651 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaking of so and so saying you were adopted. 652 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,320 And I went on to give her my tale of glow. 653 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,960 And we talked for about an hour and a half. 654 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,560 And it was the most cathartic thing for me in this whole 655 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,760 process, being able to talk to somebody who went through 656 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,200 something similar. And what was it really 657 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,240 interesting was she had the same opinion of me of really not 658 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:13,160 wanting to really meet the biological parents. 659 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,440 And she, too, felt like she was being pressured to do that. 660 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,680 So I don't know if it was Misery Loves Company or two minds 661 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,440 thinking alike, but it was very nice to hear someone else have 662 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,240 the same process as you. And just talking to her for that 663 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:32,080 hour and a half was was really, really helpful to me. 664 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,960 That was one of the reasons when I saw your group that you have 665 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,520 on those Thursday nights was probably the main reason I 666 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,320 joined that because I found that the conversation listening to 667 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:48,400 someone else's story so helpful. And likewise, when I I listen to 668 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,760 your podcast and listen to the folks on the call echo so many 669 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,640 things that I feel and say that you think you're on an island. 670 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,880 You think you're guilty for feeling or having certain 671 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,160 feelings and certain thoughts that it was very helpful to hear 672 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,360 other people share their story and makes you feel like you're 673 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,400 not in this alone and you're not. 674 00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:12,440 You don't feel bad for having certain thoughts. 675 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,360 So you, you asked me earlier about, you know, feeling like 676 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,120 you don't belong. You know, I hear that so often 677 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:23,280 now, but you know, I went, I went 59 years of feeling like an 678 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,200 idiot for having that thought. And here's how all these people 679 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,840 out there that have the same feeling that I do. 680 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,080 And it it just, it, it's very helpful. 681 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,000 I'll just leave it at that. Good. 682 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,480 I know you kind of for now sort of have like a period on the end 683 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,040 of the sentence with this, although you are open to what 684 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,320 your children may want to do in the future. 685 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,800 What's next for you in this experience? 686 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,320 Where would you say that you are now? 687 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,640 I think I've come to grips with it certainly still have 688 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:02,120 emotional days and it's not like I'm even thinking about the 689 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,560 adoption, but I think since the my mom passed away in this have 690 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,280 become more emotional. So I'm hopeful over time I'll be 691 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,200 less emotional, but I can cry at the drop of a hat these days. 692 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,800 In speaking to people going to some therapy, they they see that 693 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,080 as a good thing where I struggle to see that as a good thing 694 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,920 sometimes. But, you know, I think just the 695 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,000 more time or water that goes under the bridge, the, the, the 696 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,800 more I'll feel better about the whole thing. 697 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,440 I mean, I've accepted it, but it's still, it's still a lot and 698 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,480 it never goes away. I've become better at 699 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,320 compartmentalizing it. It's always going to be there 700 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,480 and I and that's OK. If, in fact, my children do 701 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,920 reach out and make any connections, that's going to be 702 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,000 difficult. If I don't get involved, it will 703 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,240 bring a certain amount of stress that I'm probably not looking 704 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:03,600 forward to. What advice do you have for a 705 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,800 parent? Maybe if you could go back in 706 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:10,960 time and talk to your parents who are keeping adna surprise 707 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,200 from their child. Yeah, so my wife and I have 708 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,840 spoken about this and, and we we've debated what would be the 709 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,680 right time. So originally I was like, well, 710 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,000 I know 59 is not the right answer telling them. 711 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,600 So I was saying, well, they should have told me when they're 712 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,160 18 and or 21 or whatever. But my wife's opinion, and I now 713 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:38,800 fully agree with her, I think is it it should never be a 714 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,720 surprise. So from day one, be open and 715 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,360 honest about how you came into our life, right? 716 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,640 Babies can come into families in different ways and you came in 717 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,800 through adoption. And this way, it's never a 718 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,800 surprise. You know, you you may have to 719 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,080 tell them more or add to the story along the way more facts. 720 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:02,240 But if if you start on day one or you know when they're, you 721 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:06,200 know, two years old or whatever and explain, Hey, you were 722 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:11,240 adopted, like and just make it as part of the family story from 723 00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:15,720 day one, then it's never a surprise and it's just, it is 724 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:19,760 what it is. There's because it when I think 725 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,240 back about it, even if my parents told me at 18 or 21, I 726 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,680 still would have been crushed. You know, I still would have 727 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,560 been like, why didn't you told me at 16 or 15? 728 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,920 You're like, it's going to be a bomb whenever it goes off if 729 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,200 you're doing it like a surprise. So I would just, and I have to 730 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,880 give my wife credit, it's not my idea, but I would do it from 731 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,600 from the start. Yeah, I like your wife's 732 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,200 perspective on that. Just because it becomes part of 733 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,560 your identity, like you said, just from the beginning. 734 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,840 And it doesn't shift your identity at some formative age 735 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,280 or later after you've had a family and been married. 736 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,600 And yeah, just is a part of you. It's always a part of you. 737 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,320 Yeah, and, and, and part of me is like acts of omission are 738 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,600 lies, you know, just tell me the truth. 739 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,760 Just be honest, open. And, you know, you don't have to 740 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,840 lie if you're not telling me something that's a lie. 741 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,240 Just be be transparent, you know? 742 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,760 Yeah. And what advice would you offer 743 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,160 to someone who just uncovered ADNA? 744 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,720 Surprise, like finding out that they were adopted. 745 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,360 I think just be true to your emotions. 746 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,720 Everyone around you is gonna have a different opinion or 747 00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:41,280 maybe an opinion that's different than yours. 748 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,440 But I would say, you know, you have to do what's right for you 749 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,120 at your own speed and it, you know, your own time and just, 750 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,480 you know, it's not gonna be easy getting help or, or finding a 751 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,680 sympathetic voice or someone to help you, at least for me, was 752 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,880 very helpful. So having my wife was very 753 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,680 helpful. You know, I probably couldn't 754 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,360 have gotten through this without her. 755 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,600 But also finding outside resources and people that have 756 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:16,440 been through this, you know, it's amazing once this happened 757 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,800 to me to realize how many other people have stories like this. 758 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:25,000 I just never realized there's so much of this out there. 759 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,840 And because of that, there's support for you. 760 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,160 And I think, you know, sometimes people might be ashamed to reach 761 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,920 out. But at least in in my case, even 762 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,280 if you just sit back and listen to other people's stories to 763 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,800 know that you're not in this alone and there's other people 764 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,200 like you out there. Like I said earlier, maybe it's 765 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,480 misery Loves company, but I found that very helpful. 766 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,920 Time will make it hopefully a little bit better, but you have 767 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,680 to just do it what you feel is right. 768 00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:58,680 There are resources and there's groups out there and they are 769 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,080 very helpful, so don't be afraid to ask for help. 770 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,960 John, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today 771 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,440 and sharing your unique story. I really appreciate you sharing 772 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,240 your perspective and how finding out that you were adopted 773 00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:16,400 affected you. Like we talked about it, it 774 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,000 affects everybody differently, and it was nice to hear your 775 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,160 perspective as well. And I just wish you the best as 776 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,840 you move forward and continue to navigate this. 777 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:28,920 And thank you. And I really want to say thanks 778 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,920 for what you're doing with your your podcast and the support 779 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,040 groups. It's been immensely helpful for 780 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,080 me. So for that I want to thank you. 781 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,560 Thanks again to John for sharing his story. 782 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,360 If you have adna surprise that you'd like to share, please 783 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,160 submit your story at dnasurprises.com. 784 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,040 And if you'd like to join us at one of the third Thursday 785 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,560 meetups that John referenced in this episode, you can find more 786 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,400 information at dnasurprises.com/events. 787 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,600 Finally, be sure to join me for early access to AD free episodes 788 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,360 over on patreon@patreon.com/DNA. Surprises. 789 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,560 Until next time. This episode of DNA Surprises 790 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,440 was hosted, produced and edited by me, Alexis Ourselt. 791 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:20,280 It was mixed and mastered by Josh Ourselt of Siren Recording 792 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:20,880 Studios.