1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,720 When the DNA surprises happen or NPE, a lot of times the child is 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,120 pretty angry with the mother for the lying and the sneaking 3 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:12,520 around and keeping the secret. And for me, I get that. 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,600 I, I understand that. But I also would ask for grace 5 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:21,400 because sometimes when those things happen, those decisions 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,400 are made in the moment, in the survival mode moment, and you 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,640 really are not thinking, okay, what's going to happen 20 years 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,840 from now? Is this child going to be asking 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,000 questions? Is there going to be such a 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,760 thing as rapid DNA tests that everybody is going to be taking? 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,840 Those are things that never ever crossed my mind at the time. 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,960 I was just in full blown survival mode and like I said, 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,360 going through a breakup of a volatile relationship and just 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,480 really did not know what my future looked like. 15 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:56,600 But I knew at that time that I could not care for a. 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:02,320 Child, welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that delves into the 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,959 world of unexpected DNA discoveries. 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:11,480 I'm your host Alexis, our salt. In July 2021, my life took a 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:16,360 surprising turn when I found out that I'm an NPE, a person who 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,200 has experienced a non paternal event. 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,760 In other words, my biological father isn't who I thought he 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,760 was. Join me as we explore the 23 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,840 stories of NP ES, adoptees and donor conceived people and their 24 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,640 families. Get ready to unravel the 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,800 astonishing journeys that begin with a simple DNA test. 26 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:45,360 This is DNA surprises, intergenerational trauma. 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,520 It's something we talk about a lot here. 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,600 The most common cycles. We discuss our patterns around 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,840 keeping secrets and patterns around shame. 30 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:01,960 In this week's episode, you will hear a story about a cycle of NP 31 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,120 ES. When Bobby became pregnant with 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,520 her third child, she knew that she was not in a position to 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,880 care for another baby. She relinquished her child to a 34 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,160 family member, but kept the specific circumstances around 35 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,240 the birth a secret. Most people thought she was a 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,040 surrogate. Just a couple of years later, 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,480 Bobby was shocked when, long before consumer DNA testing, she 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,280 learned that the man she'd believed was her biological 39 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,120 father was not, and that both of her parents knew this secret her 40 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,240 entire life. And then there was one more 41 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:40,760 years later when she took a consumer DNA test, Bobby 42 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,520 uncovered that her mother is also an NPE, upending another 43 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,920 long believed story. I want to thank Bobby for being 44 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:53,720 open about her experience, especially as a mother in this 45 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,120 situation. She shares a vulnerable, honest, 46 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,320 and empathetic perspective for all of us to consider. 47 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,480 Thank you Bobby for sharing your story. 48 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,480 My name is Bobby and I live around the San Antonio, TX area 49 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,200 and I will be 57 this month. The first one in my family was 50 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,680 that, and I'm going to be quite frank here, I got married when I 51 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:23,600 was 18, very young and my ex-husband was an alcoholic and 52 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:31,240 a serial cheater and I could blame my actions on that, but I 53 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,120 feel like I've matured enough to where I can own it. 54 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:40,000 I sought the company companionship of a colleague and 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,360 that year and a half relationship ended up with me 56 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,960 being pregnant. My ex-husband and I had broken 57 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,640 up six times. I've taken back five out of 58 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,960 those six. We were actually legally 59 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,520 divorced when I turned to someone else, But we were living 60 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,000 together, and so it was a difficult situation. 61 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,520 But he had already told me that he was going to leave again 62 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,120 right before I found out that I was pregnant. 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,760 So I was going through a really messy breakup, one that I knew 64 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,120 was permanent at that time. But also, I had two children and 65 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,440 I was trying to finish my college degree. 66 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,040 And I think it was just kind of the perfect storm that when I 67 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,360 found out that I was pregnant, he was already packing his 68 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,880 things to leave. And so then I was thinking to 69 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,400 myself, I'm pregnant, I'm going to school, I'm working, I have 70 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,160 two kids, I'm breaking up with my partner. 71 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,840 What do I do? What do I do now? 72 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,880 So a family member had approached me a couple of years 73 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,240 prior and asked me if I would consider being a surrogate. 74 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,720 I told them no at the time because obviously I had a lot of 75 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,360 things going on and it wasn't something that I had even would 76 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,000 even consider. When I found myself pregnant, I 77 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,760 honestly had no idea what I was going to do because I could 78 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,400 barely financially take care of the two kids that I had. 79 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,840 And I knew that I could not financially and probably 80 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:15,000 emotionally care for another child, if I'm being honest. 81 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,320 And so I went back to the family member and I said, is it 82 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,560 important that the child be biologically yours? 83 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,920 Because I'm pregnant and I don't know what I'm going to do. 84 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,440 And so they said they would take the child. 85 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:37,040 And so when the baby was born, I put her husband's name on the 86 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,400 birth certificate as the child's father. 87 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:42,480 It was just something that we'd all agreed to and we thought it 88 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,560 would make it easier down the road for the adoption to take 89 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,800 place. And it did it. 90 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,320 It made it much easier. At that point, did you know who 91 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,120 the father of the child was? Did you know that it was not 92 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,080 your ex-husband or was versus the person that you'd had a 93 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,960 relationship with? Well he had had a vasectomy. 94 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,000 Ex-husband had had a vasectomy 8 years prior. 95 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:14,560 So I was and still to this day probably 95 to 100% sure that it 96 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,400 was the person that I had a relationship with. 97 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,360 OK, that it was that person's child. 98 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:20,640 Are your children that you already had? 99 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,800 How old were they? 11:00 and 8:00. 100 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:28,040 OK, so do they remember then you being pregnant and and what 101 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,440 happened? Yes, my daughter was 11, my son 102 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,760 was 8. And what they knew and what they 103 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,680 were told was what we told everyone, that I was just being 104 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,440 a surrogate for the family member. 105 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,760 And so that's what they grew up leaving. 106 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,480 I do have regrets. I do have problems now with the 107 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,480 way that we handled it back then, just simply because what 108 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,000 you know in the future is not what you know in the past. 109 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,080 So it makes a big difference in the decision section. 110 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,920 Absolutely. And I want to say first of all, 111 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:08,280 that I really respect and appreciate your bravery with 112 00:07:08,280 --> 00:07:13,800 coming forward to talk about this because there is a lot of 113 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:19,640 shame and stigma and anger towards towards mothers often in 114 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,720 this situation. And I know when you reached out 115 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,720 to me, that's part of of why you wanted to share your 116 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,560 perspective. So I really just want to thank 117 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:30,760 you for your vulnerability with this. 118 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:36,360 At the time that you made your decision, were you thinking 119 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,760 about what the child might feel like about, you know, not 120 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:47,720 knowing who their biological mother was or what stories, I 121 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,840 guess, were you telling yourself about maybe how the child would 122 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,920 feel? I was not thinking about that. 123 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,200 I'll be honest. I was not thinking about what is 124 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,200 this child going to think 15 or 20 or 30 years down the road? 125 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,400 Are there going to be questions? Who's going to answer those 126 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,720 questions? It really was in the very back 127 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,720 of my mind. I will say this, I did tell the 128 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:16,240 person that I was having a baby and that the baby was his. 129 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,160 And he said he didn't want anything to do with it. 130 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,000 And I said, OK, I'm going to give this baby up for adoption 131 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,200 basically. And he said, OK, fine, just 132 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,600 don't ever contact me again. And, and I didn't. 133 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,520 So that person is aware that they have a child out out there 134 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,559 in the world. What they do or or how they feel 135 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,960 about it now, I don't know because I haven't spoken to them 136 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,640 in 25 years. OK, so you, you were really in a 137 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,280 situation where you are not supported from either your 138 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,000 ex-husband or the person that you'd have the relationship with 139 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,400 and like you said, really in that survival mode when you made 140 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,320 your choice. Yes. 141 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:02,160 OK, So what happens next? You have the baby and you give 142 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,040 the baby to your family member. My family member who actually 143 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,880 lives in my same town. And so a lot of people that I 144 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,000 worked with, there were people that came up to me and suspected 145 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,840 that it wasn't the way we were telling it. 146 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,320 And so I had a lot of, you know, there were rumor mills. 147 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,520 Everything's going around, you know, and I protected the 148 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,720 identity of the person that I was with. 149 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,040 And in some ways I look back on that and I'm like, why did I do 150 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:33,840 that? Why did I take it all on, you 151 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,440 know, when it takes two, really. But that's just the way that it, 152 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,280 it happened. We're in the same town with a 153 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,760 family member. I see the family member a lot. 154 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,280 I see the child a lot. And it's painful. 155 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,080 It's painful to see that decision that you made and just 156 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,400 wonder, OK, did I make the right decision? 157 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,560 Should I have changed it? You know what, what should I 158 00:09:55,560 --> 00:10:00,200 have done? And then about 2 1/2 years 159 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,040 later, I finally finished college. 160 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,680 I've bought a home for me and my two children. 161 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:09,480 I feel like things are kind of looking up, like finally I've 162 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,240 gotten out of the dark clouds. Not that I've forgotten about my 163 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,280 decision because it's always in the back of my mind, but I felt 164 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,600 like I could live with it a little bit better it I guess. 165 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,160 I told myself, look, it's done. What's done is done and there's 166 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,200 nothing you can do now. You can't change it. 167 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,880 You can just live with it. Even though I will tell you that 168 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:38,120 20 something years of guilt was there, it was there for a long, 169 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,920 long time. How often would you say that you 170 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:46,160 thought about it? I'm not going to say daily. 171 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,440 I think that's overkill because again, I was still and back then 172 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,280 we didn't have online classes. So I'm going to work all day. 173 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,240 I'm going to school two or three nights a week. 174 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,400 I'm trying to take care of my kids. 175 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,360 I'm doing a lot of things. I'm trying to stay busy. 176 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,400 But I will say this, I did see a therapist and the therapist told 177 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,080 me that what I was doing, going to work, going to school, 178 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,800 running around, a lot of that was just so that I wouldn't face 179 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,600 who I was, my identity, the decisions that I made, things 180 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,400 that had happened to me. And I look, I, I was kind of 181 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,720 angry about that at first because I was like, no, I'm 182 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,440 going to school so I can better myself and get a better job for 183 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,520 my kids and, you know, all these things. 184 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,120 But I think there was a probably a grain of truth in that, that I 185 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,040 tried to stay busy so that I wouldn't think about what I had 186 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,200 done honestly. Did you see the child often? 187 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,360 You said you were kind of in the same town. 188 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,800 You were in the same town. And yes, I did. 189 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,880 And I wouldn't say often, but every couple of months I did. 190 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,280 So it was difficult during those times. 191 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,880 Like I said, about 2 1/2 years later, I graduated from college 192 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,880 on a Saturday morning, super excited that I was done with 193 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,720 that and ready to embark on, you know, a new chapter with my 194 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,480 children and finally gotten my ex out of my system and we're 195 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,120 ready to move on with our new lives. 196 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,920 And Tuesday evening comes and I get a phone call from my ex 197 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,920 mother-in-law and she lived up in Illinois at the time I lived 198 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,280 in Oklahoma. And she was adamantly 199 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,360 apologizing to me. I said what what happened? 200 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,400 And she said I accidentally opened her mail. 201 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,880 I'm thinking who would send me a letter to my mother-in-law up in 202 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,520 Illinois? You know, it just seemed odd to 203 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,240 me. I said, what do you mean? 204 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,120 And she said, well, it was rainy, and the ink had smeared 205 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,000 on the envelope. And so the mail people put it in 206 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,440 a plastic bag, and all I could read was the last name. 207 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,000 And of course, we had the same last name at the time. 208 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,640 And she said, I thought it was my letter, so I opened it. 209 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,640 But now I realize it was for you. 210 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:46,960 Do you want me to mail it to you? 211 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,600 And I said, no, you can just read it to me. 212 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,080 It's OK. So she read me a letter from a 213 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,360 girl named Tina. Tina said that she was my sister 214 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,840 and that we shared a biological father. 215 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,480 Now, this is May of 2000, and we kind of went back and forth for 216 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,480 probably over an hour with me arguing with her that there's no 217 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,200 way that we're sisters, there's no way that we share a father, 218 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:11,960 that, you know, my dad's on my birth certificate and he's been 219 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,000 my dad my whole life. I got pictures of me as a baby. 220 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,600 He's holding me as a baby. So you're wrong. 221 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,120 You're absolutely wrong. And she proceeds to tell me the 222 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,320 name of my mother, my grandparents, where they lived, 223 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,640 my birthday, a lot of things about me that just a stranger 224 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,320 from somewhere else would not know. 225 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,160 She faxed me some pictures of a man that's in a military 226 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,760 uniform, he's about 21 in the picture, and then some pictures 227 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,560 of me as a baby that some of them I had never even seen but I 228 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,240 knew they were me. I asked her where she got them 229 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,240 and she said that she got them from our father. 230 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:53,400 I asked my mother if there was any chance at all that my dad 231 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,160 was not my dad and she denied it. 232 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:58,440 She said no, that's absolutely untrue. 233 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,520 Who told you that? Who started that rumor? 234 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,520 It was a big long thing with her. 235 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,920 And so the next day when I had got those pictures in the fax, I 236 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,680 drove over to her office. Her office was literally like 3 237 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:14,760 buildings from my office at the time and I asked her to come out 238 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,440 to my car with me and she did. And I think she knew what I was 239 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,880 going to ask her because I had called her the night before in 240 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,320 in my mind it was just ludicrous. 241 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,160 There's just no way that this girl is right. 242 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,400 And so I wish that I would have driven to my mother's house and 243 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,840 actually looked her in the face when I asked her the question. 244 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,000 She came out to the car with me and I had his picture face down 245 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,360 on my dashboard and I showed it to her and I just said I have 246 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,240 one question. Is this man my father? 247 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,520 And she just burst out in tears. You don't understand. 248 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,800 You don't understand. It's too hard to come to 249 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,920 explain. It's complicated. 250 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,360 You just don't get it. You don't understand. 251 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,240 He left me. He left us. 252 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,480 He left me. He left. 253 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,240 I mean, she just kept saying that over and over. 254 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,440 And so then I said, I get it. He left. 255 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,000 He left us. He left you. 256 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,000 He left me, he left us. I get that part. 257 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,640 But what I don't get is why I never knew about him until right 258 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,720 now. How I never knew this man even 259 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,000 existed. How is that possible? 260 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:22,840 And you are about 32 years old at this time. 32, yes, 32. 261 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,680 And this is just a couple of years after the baby. 262 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,920 OK. What are you thinking at this 263 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,000 time? I mean, this is wild to process. 264 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,080 You've had so many things happen just in the last few years. 265 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,600 How are you feeling? Devastated. 266 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,720 I actually wrote a book about it. 267 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,920 It's called Descended Deception and I changed names and places 268 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,600 and all of that. But in the book I really 269 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:55,040 describe how I go to the fax machine and get the pictures and 270 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,680 once I see his face, I know immediately that he's my 271 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,440 biological father. And I go into the ladies room 272 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,080 and I just vomit. I mean, I just, I'm physically, 273 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,960 I'll the reason why it's not because the man who raised me 274 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,560 was such a horrible person because he wasn't never let on 275 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,960 the entire time that that he raised me, that he was not my 276 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,200 dad. His mother was a horrible, 277 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,640 horrible person. She knew that I was not his 278 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,000 biological child and she treated me as such growing up. 279 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,400 And so to go through all that torment growing up, it was it 280 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,360 was a horrible, it was a horrible thing. 281 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,200 And I was angry with my mother for making me go through that 282 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,520 when I had a real grandmother that could have been different. 283 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,880 Those were the things that were going through my mind. 284 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,400 I went home sick from work and it was just devastating at the 285 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,080 time. I can't even tell you the 286 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,880 whirlwind. I mean, unless you've been 287 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,400 through it yourself, it's just hard to describe how it feels to 288 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,840 know that you are not who you thought you were. 289 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,040 Yeah. All the family research that 290 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,280 you've done on a family that's not yours, all the cousins and 291 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,680 the aunts and uncles and relatives that you have grown up 292 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,599 with your entire life are not yours. 293 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,800 They're not yours to claim. And I had two younger sisters. 294 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,599 My, my sister that's closest to me. 295 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,920 We're only 22 months apart because what had happened was my 296 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,320 mom got married at 17. I was born on her 18th birthday. 297 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,280 And then when I was two months old, he left. 298 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,240 He went back to Tennessee, where he was from, because he was in 299 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,320 the Army, and my mother married the man I called Dad when I was 300 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,560 eight months old, who was within six months. 301 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,360 She got remarried. She was married to him until I 302 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,200 was 28 years old. They got divorced and then she 303 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,600 got remarried. So when I found out, she had 304 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,080 already been divorced from him. Obviously he already knew. 305 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,200 Did he want to raise you as his own? 306 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,520 Was that something they agreed upon together? 307 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,880 I don't know because neither one of them would talk to me about 308 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,240 it after the fact. I went to my dad and I, I told 309 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,240 him. I said, hey, I just want to let 310 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,600 you know that I have found out the truth. 311 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,360 I know that you're not my biological father. 312 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,280 And you know what he said to me? Who started that rumor? 313 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,000 Oh, wow. And I said dad. 314 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:28,960 I said dad, I know it's the truth. 315 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,840 You don't have to lie anymore. And then he just didn't want to 316 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,760 talk about it anymore. No, no. 317 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,760 Wow. So you find this out way before 318 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,040 you know, the consumer DNA testing. 319 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,640 You find out kind of through this really abrupt way that 320 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,040 implies that a lot of people knew something about you before 321 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:59,440 you knew this about yourself. And I have to wonder in light of 322 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,960 the child that you relinquished for adoption, were you thinking 323 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:10,400 about them through any of this and and kind of how maybe it was 324 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,520 a similar experience to your own? 325 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:19,640 Yes, I was, because that experience that I had kept me 326 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,000 from being so angry at my mother. 327 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,400 I will tell you that we never really sat down and had a 328 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,560 discussion about it. In fact, she was pretty angry 329 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,760 with me when she found out that I drove all the way up to 330 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,080 Missouri in 2018 to meet my biological father because in her 331 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,880 mind, that chapter's closed. So we're done with that. 332 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,800 We've moved on. So there was a lot of anger 333 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:49,680 towards her for that, but I had to keep reminding myself, you 334 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,800 know, hey, you did it, too. It's not like you can be really 335 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,520 mad about this, you know? So my mom and I are in a pretty 336 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,920 good place now. But again, she doesn't really 337 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,120 like to talk about it. She doesn't like to go to the 338 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:08,880 past. So you said in 2018 you decided 339 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,400 to meet your biological father. That's how many years between 340 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,440 when you find out to when you meet him. 341 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,880 It's 1818. 18 years, What are you doing during that time? 342 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:28,240 So what had happened was I decided to meet my sister. 343 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,280 We met halfway in Tunica, Mississippi and we spent a four 344 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,160 day weekend. It's Presidents Day weekend and 345 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,640 actually to this day we will meet in different cities on 346 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,920 Presidents Day weekend. I love that and vacation 347 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,320 together just because that's where we first met. 348 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,680 It's just something that we do because we live so far away from 349 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,080 each other. We don't see each other on a 350 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,880 daily basis. We text, we talk, we message, we 351 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,680 send each other gifts. We are getting closer. 352 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,080 In the past 24 years we've gotten closer. 353 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:04,680 But during that 18 year time frame, I asked her to give me 354 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:10,040 his phone number so that I could call him and we talked 2 times 355 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,840 and both times he was drunk. I mean he was like very 356 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,400 inebriated and so I told him I would like to have a 357 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,600 relationship with you but only if you're sober you know? 358 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,760 Keep in mind this is the exact same time that my ex-husband is 359 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,160 calling me drunk telling me you're the only person I've ever 360 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,760 loved. I still have your picture in my 361 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,520 wallet. I want us to have a 362 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,360 relationship. Then I'm getting calls from bio 363 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,840 dad saying almost the exact same things. 364 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,760 I've always loved you. I still have your picture in my 365 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,720 wallet. I never forgot about you. 366 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,600 So it was, it was kind of traumatic for me, but in a sense 367 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,960 I wanted to stand my ground and be like, OK, I don't mind having 368 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,760 a relationship with you, but we're going to be sober. 369 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,280 You're not going to call me drunk. 370 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:00,680 You're not going to be disrespectful. 371 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,760 And because his whole thing was, oh, your grandmother ran me off. 372 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,560 I would have been, I would have came back, but she ran me off. 373 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,680 She said she didn't want me around and this and that. 374 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,240 And I'm like, OK, well, dispense with the excuses because I I 375 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,400 have them too. I can make every excuse in the 376 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:22,360 book for any decision or action I've taken, but just stop with 377 00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:25,600 all the nonsense and call me when you're sober. 378 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,080 And he never called me again in that 18 years. 379 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:37,840 In fact, he'd had a stroke. And his sister was constantly 380 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,640 calling me. She was leaving me messages 381 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,640 telling me that she was going to give me power of attorney over 382 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,600 him, I needed to come and get him out of the nursing home, 383 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,040 those kinds of things. And I'm thinking to myself, 384 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,640 you've got a lot of nerve. Like, I've never even met this 385 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,680 man, and now I'm going to take care of him. 386 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,840 I don't think so. So his version of events is that 387 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,880 he left but then wanted to come back, but your grandmother ran 388 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,280 him off. And your mom's version of 389 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,120 events, well, you think you aren't 100% sure 'cause she 390 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,200 won't really talk about it. But what you've pieced together 391 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:20,160 is that he left and abandoned your mom and you, and therefore 392 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,520 she went and married somebody else who raised you as his own. 393 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,640 Do you have any sort of sense of where the truth might be in all 394 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,280 of that? I think it's pieces of each of 395 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,120 it. I really honestly believe that 396 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:36,120 when he got out of the Army, he did intend to go to Tennessee 397 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:40,720 and get a job and send for us. What he had said was he had sent 398 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,600 letters, and my mother claims she never received any letters 399 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,600 from him and maybe they were intercepted by my grandmother. 400 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:50,840 I don't know. But what I do know is that if 401 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,200 you know that you have a child out there and you truly want to 402 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,560 be in that child's life, then you could have made an effort. 403 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,720 We still lived in the same town until I was nine years old. 404 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,960 We never moved from that same town until I was 9. 405 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,640 So I think, I think that there could have been maybe another 406 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,000 way to reach out. In fact, because it was 2000, 407 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,200 before social media, before the, you know, DNA test, before all 408 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,000 these things were going on, the way that my sister found me was 409 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,640 a private investigator. She hired a private investigator 410 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,360 to find me. So it could have been done. 411 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,880 I think it could have been done. Yeah, yeah. 412 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,280 And if you were in the same place, that makes sense. 413 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,680 OK. Do you end up? 414 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,280 Meeting him, yes. So it just so happened that my 415 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,560 husband had, we have a Hot Wheels Camaro 2013 version and 416 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,560 it was the pace car at the Indianapolis 501 year. 417 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,080 And so in the summer of 2018, they had invited all of the 418 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,280 owners of Hot Wheels Camaros to come out there and run the 419 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,720 track. So we were driving up to 420 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,240 Indianapolis that summer. Anyway, that was already in the 421 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,000 plans. And so when she called me and 422 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,760 told me that he had had a stroke and he was in the nursing home 423 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,440 and you know, dire straits, something's going to happen. 424 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,280 I called my husband and I said, hey, is there any way that we 425 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,640 could just do a jog over to Missouri on our way to 426 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,560 Indianapolis? And he was like, what? 427 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,600 And I said, well, I got a call that my bio dad and we called 428 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,600 him Ron. We didn't, I didn't call him dad 429 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,080 or father or whatever. You know, it was either bio dad 430 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,520 or Ron. That was what we called him and 431 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,360 I said I got a call that he's in the nursing home and I don't 432 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:34,480 know his condition, but I kind of feel like if I don't go, I'll 433 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,080 regret it. And honestly, the whole time 434 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,880 that we were married, which we got married in 2002, he was 435 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,600 telling me the same thing. He's like, I don't want to push 436 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,280 you, but I do feel like if you don't make some kind of effort 437 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,800 to at least meet him, that's you're going to regret it one 438 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,640 day. And so we kind of squeezed in 439 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,040 the trip to the nursing home in the middle of Missouri in our 440 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,320 vacation plans. And so we did. 441 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,680 We went to the nursing home and I don't know how to describe the 442 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,760 meeting. It was surreal in a lot of ways 443 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,000 because I'm looking at this little old man and I'm like, I 444 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,840 think you got a ton of regrets. I really do think he did. 445 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,000 I brought a photo album with me and he was looking through the 446 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,800 pictures. I have a granddaughter that has 447 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,600 red hair like I do. And he he would point to it and 448 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,280 he would point to me because he couldn't speak. 449 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,000 And I said, yes, I've been told she looks like me. 450 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,600 He had tears running down his face. 451 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,680 And I'm going to tell you that I really believe that this man had 452 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,000 so many regrets because, like I said, we make decisions that we 453 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,160 make, and we don't think about the future. 454 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,320 We don't think about what's going to happen 20 or 30 or 50 455 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,480 years from now. We just don't. 456 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,920 Yeah. So I'm thankful that I got 20 457 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,440 minutes. I saw him. 458 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,320 I don't know him. I don't know if the drinking was 459 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,840 something that started after he left my mom or if it was 460 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,480 something he was always going to be doing or I really don't know. 461 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,400 But I will say this, my sister didn't know him either because 462 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,960 once he left my mom, he got married to my sister's mom and 463 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,160 when my sister's mother said she was pregnant, he left. 464 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:34,960 So my sister's mother remarried and I had the baby and her 465 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,040 husband's name was on her birth certificate also. 466 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,720 So we were both raised believing that our dads was somebody 467 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,280 different. Wow, that is so much to 468 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,400 navigate, not only from your own personal experience, but then 469 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,560 that happening to you and then happening to your sister. 470 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,640 Yes. Did that time that you spend 471 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,880 with him resolve anything for you? 472 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,960 I think it did. I think that for me, it didn't 473 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,480 really show me who he was or why he did what he did, but it 474 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,760 allowed me the chance to tell him that I forgave him. 475 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,680 Wow, thank you for sharing that. I started writing my book in 476 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:26,720 2018 and we started doing DNA testing through Ancestry and my 477 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,400 book. I put it on Amazon in 2020, 478 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,760 hired a writing coach from Houston, and what I would do is 479 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,120 during my lunch period, I'd bring my lunch, my sandwich or 480 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:40,680 whatever, and then I'd go out to my car and I would call her and 481 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,800 she would record some of our sessions and she became my 482 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,160 therapist. I'm not kidding. 483 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,200 She it was not a job that she signed up for at all, but going 484 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,880 through it and using her as my writing coach and writing about 485 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,760 my experience actually was so good for me. 486 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,680 It really was. I wrote under a pseudonym. 487 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,080 All the names are changed to protect all of us guilty ones. 488 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,560 But it was so good to get it out because I had kept it in for so 489 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,680 long. My mom didn't really like to 490 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,280 talk about it. I couldn't really talk about it, 491 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,280 you know, with my kids. I mean, I don't really have 492 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,720 anybody that I could just vent to or whatever. 493 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,000 In 2021, I set my daughter down and told her about what 494 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,480 happened, about what really happened. 495 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,560 I gave her a copy of the book. I said, you don't have to read 496 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,760 it, but I hope that you do because I think it will give you 497 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,320 a better idea of what happened, what really happened. 498 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,560 And she read it. We sat down and talked about it, 499 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,520 and then I talked to my son about it. 500 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,200 I really felt like this was a secret that I'd kept for years 501 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:54,320 and years and that at some point, some way, somehow, it was 502 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,960 going to come out and I would really rather them hear it from 503 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,480 me than someone else. And as it turned out, that's 504 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,040 what happened. What was their reaction My. 505 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,520 My daughter was really upset with me at first. 506 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,120 She was like, mom, how can you give up a kid? 507 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,480 How could you do that? Because she has, she had two 508 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,400 children at the time and they have since fostered and adopted 509 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,680 a baby. And I just told her. 510 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,880 I said, well, you are in a loving relationship with your 511 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,520 husband. They dated for four years. 512 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,520 They've been together for 20 years now. 513 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,120 I said you don't know what that's like to be in a 514 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,320 relationship like I was with your father. 515 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,600 Their father passed away 20 years ago from his drinking and 516 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,440 so he will forever be the the hero in their eyes. 517 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,160 And there's nothing I could say or would say to change their 518 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,240 minds. However, they do know that he 519 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,160 had a drinking issue and that's, I mean, he passed away when he 520 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,480 was 39 years old. So they know that. 521 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,520 And so I told her, I said, your husband doesn't even drink, 522 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,480 doesn't go to bars. You, you know where he is every 523 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,160 night he comes home to you and the kids. 524 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,480 That's not how it was for me. And again, not an excuse, but 525 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,120 just painting a picture of what it was like at that time in my 526 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,080 life. Yeah, they came to understand 527 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,600 that, you know, you make decisions. 528 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,360 Like I said, you make decisions in their your survival mode. 529 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,080 You do what you think you is best with the information you 530 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,080 have at the time. And I live with that guilt for 531 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,800 20 years. That child will be 25 in 532 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,200 November. And they know that I'm their 533 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,240 biological mother now. And it's all out in the open. 534 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,800 Everything's out. And how did they come to find 535 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,160 out? So the family member got 536 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:57,160 divorced and then got remarried and shared that with their new 537 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,800 husband. And the new husband told 538 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,720 everybody in the family, he said, that he thought everyone 539 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,400 already knew and that really was not the case. 540 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,720 And in fact, my two sisters did not know. 541 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,200 My one sister took it upon herself to call my children to 542 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,920 tell my children about that, which like I said, thankfully I 543 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,440 had already told them so they knew. 544 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,800 And how did your child receive that information? 545 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,160 The one who was raised by another family member. 546 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,640 I think that that child was already going through some 547 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,120 identity issues and had some questions and unbeknownst to me 548 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,640 because when I got remarried, I married a military member and we 549 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,080 moved to Texas. So when I moved away, that child 550 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,280 was like three, 3 1/2 years old. And so I was not around anymore. 551 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,080 And it for me, it was out of sight, out of mind. 552 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,160 The guilt was always there. The the emotion for me was 553 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,480 always there. But I didn't have to see that 554 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,480 child every day and I didn't see that child grow up. 555 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,480 So it was to me in my mind, better for me to not even be in 556 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,960 that town anymore. But from what I understand, the 557 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,680 pieces fell into place for that person also the way they did for 558 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,440 me when I found out. And we've actually had 559 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,880 conversations. They don't, you know, obviously 560 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,320 don't refer to me as mom or mother or whatever, but they are 561 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,760 aware that I am their biological mother. 562 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,920 And we've had conversations. And I've also said I'm not going 563 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,640 to be like my mother was. I'm going to be open and honest 564 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:40,520 about what happened. So if you ever have questions or 565 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,960 you want to know anything, I'm here and I'm going to be open 566 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,640 about it. And they asked me the name of 567 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,840 their biological father and I gave that to them. 568 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,480 As far as I know, they've not reached out to try to find that 569 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,480 person. And like I said, they haven't 570 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,160 really asked me a lot of questions. 571 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,760 I think it was just a matter of there was they had questions 572 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:07,880 growing up about how things were and kind of suspected that the 573 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,400 people that raised them were not their biological parents. 574 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,520 And then when the truth came out, I guess the pieces felt 575 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,480 into place and it made more sense to them. 576 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,280 So I don't feel anger from that person. 577 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,239 I don't feel like they're upset with me. 578 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,840 In fact, not really asked a lot of questions, but it's only been 579 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,880 about a year, year and a half since they found out. 580 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,480 So I'm going to assume that once they process the information, 581 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,639 they may have questions later on. 582 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:42,679 And that's OK. I'm open to them and I'm going 583 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:46,719 to be 100% honest. Wow. 584 00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,040 Well, it's, it's unfortunate, you know, that they found out 585 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,719 the way that they did, but very fortunate that they have someone 586 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,240 to talk to who can answer questions for them. 587 00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:03,120 During that time we were taking DNA tests and we were. 588 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,080 It was a fun thing because to me most of the secrets were already 589 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,800 out, so nobody had anything to hide. 590 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,240 It was, it was just to see how much Irish we really had or how 591 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,120 much Scottish we really had or you know, those kinds of things. 592 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,400 My son-in-law is Italian and so how much of my granddaughter's 593 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,960 got Italian or, or my Irish or Scottish, you know, because one 594 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,760 of them has brown hair and one of them has red hair. 595 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,960 And it was just kind of a fun thing we were doing. 596 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,040 And even my grandmother said she wanted to do it, so she did it. 597 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,440 So my daughter, my mother and my grandmother and I, we were going 598 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,520 through all these DNA matches and really it was kind of like a 599 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,480 hot, it was a hobby because I'm still working. 600 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,560 And we were just kind of doing it on the side and just here and 601 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,640 there we were finding out matches. 602 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,560 And my mother has a sister and her sister's daughter, which is 603 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,920 my first cousin, She and I matched in, in ancestry. 604 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,800 And I called her and I said, Hey, I see that you're an 605 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,480 ancestry. You were matched da, da, da. 606 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,400 You know, it was, it was fun. And then I started matching with 607 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,440 people that I had no idea who they were. 608 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,800 I was like, who are these people? 609 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,720 And I matched with a person who had more DNA than I did with my 610 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:15,800 first cousin. I'm like, how is that possible? 611 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,560 And so I started researching that and trying to figure out 612 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,200 who these people were. And I will tell you this, my 613 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,640 grandmother passed away in May of 2021. 614 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,200 We called her nanny. She was, she was the matriarch 615 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,640 of her family. And then in June of 2021, I got 616 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,760 a phone call from that match's mother. 617 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,880 And we pieced it together that my mother's biological father 618 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:48,440 was not who we thought it was. So for the past three years I've 619 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,920 been researching to find out who he really was. 620 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,840 And what have you found? I found out that my grandmother 621 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,080 was a waitress in Louisiana in 1948. 622 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,320 How she got there, I have no idea, but it was a little place 623 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,120 called the City Cafe. It was a diner, and it was right 624 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,280 across from the railroad. And so when the soldiers were 625 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,240 called up for the draft for World War 2, they would come and 626 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,760 sit on the bench waiting for the train, and the owner of the 627 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,920 diner would send her out with plates of food to feed them 628 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,280 because he knew that a lot of them didn't have any money. 629 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,440 They were hungry, and some of them weren't going to come home. 630 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,440 I don't know how she met the man who is my mother's father, but 631 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,000 that's how she met the man that I know is my Pawpaw. 632 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,200 He was stationed at Fort Bliss. He went over there to get some 633 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,800 of the soldiers, and he was also there to guard a plane crash 634 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,840 because he was a military police at the time. 635 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,160 The next thing I know, she's taking a train over to El Paso. 636 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,320 My mother was born in El Paso. She's married to him and they 637 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,920 were married for a long time. They were married, I don't know, 638 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,360 50 years. So I'm not really sure. 639 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,160 I'm trying to piece together, you know, how she ended up in 640 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,240 Louisiana and then how she ended up in El Paso. 641 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:10,280 But I have narrowed it down to three brothers and the older one 642 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,880 was in the military and he was not in the town at the time, so 643 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,600 we ruled him out. The middle brother was in the 644 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,560 town, but he was married and of course that doesn't mean 645 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,640 anything. But the younger brother was one 646 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,680 year older than her, and he was a traveling drug salesman. 647 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,680 And at the time, the diners were also drug stores. 648 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,840 And so in my mind, I'm picturing this guy coming into the diner 649 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,240 to sell drugs to the drugstore and meeting my grandmother, who 650 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:45,720 was a waitress in there. Why she didn't end up marrying 651 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,560 him, why she ended up marrying the guy that was in the 652 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,320 military, I don't know. So it's a mystery that I'm still 653 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,120 working on, but I'm pretty sure it's the youngest one that was 654 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,480 my mom's father. And does your mother know this? 655 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,760 Yes. And how does she feel about it? 656 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,080 Well, she wants to go with us to Louisiana next summer so we can 657 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,560 meet some of her relatives. Some of all of the brothers are 658 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,640 deceased. And the brother that I think it 659 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,040 is, he had a son who is also deceased. 660 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,120 So the only way that we're going to really find out is if his two 661 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,600 children, who are about my age, he has a son and a daughter, and 662 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,000 if they would take the Ancestry DNA test. 663 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,480 I've reached out to them on Facebook, but I haven't got a 664 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:32,920 response from either one of them. 665 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,240 But I'm hoping that at some point one of them reaches out to 666 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:41,960 me so that we can get them to take a test to be 100% sure that 667 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,440 their grandfather is my grandfather. 668 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,400 Wow. I mean we talk a lot on this 669 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,440 podcast about generational cycles, generational trauma, and 670 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:59,160 in this case, in your story, we have like 3 very concrete 671 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,520 examples. What has been your sort of 672 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,920 learning or like just overall observation and kind of seeing 673 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,800 how in some ways history repeated itself over 3 674 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,520 generations in your family? So what I've learned is that my 675 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,040 grandmother got pregnant by someone. 676 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,200 My theory is that his family came from money. 677 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,600 They were politicians, they had mansions in Louisiana. 678 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,120 They were their name was really big over there. 679 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,640 I think that it's either he was told or he knew that he would 680 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:39,440 not be able to marry a woman who was a waitress and basically an 681 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:45,160 orphan at that time. So she found a soldier to marry, 682 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,000 and that soldier took care of her for decades. 683 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:54,040 And so when my mother got married, my grandmother signed 684 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,720 off for her to get married to a soldier when she was 17. 685 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,840 And then when he left, he was gone. 686 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,120 Then she found another soldier for her to marry. 687 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,800 And in fact, my aunt also married several soldiers. 688 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,440 And when I was in high school, my mother pushed for me to marry 689 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,760 a military man. Ironically, I did eventually 690 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,520 marry one, and both of my sisters are married to military. 691 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,120 That's so interesting. I think that my grandmother 692 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:23,320 viewed our Papa. That's what we call him. 693 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,120 I think she viewed him as her savior. 694 00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:32,680 Here she was 1948 pregnant, which was a huge no no back 695 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,080 then. This soldier said, I'll marry 696 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,240 you. I'll, I'll marry you. 697 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,520 And he he knew that she was pregnant with another man's baby 698 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,760 and still married her and took care of her for decades. 699 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,640 And so in my nanny's mind, my daughters and my granddaughters 700 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,120 need to marry the military because that's what'll take care 701 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:52,840 of them. Yeah. 702 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:58,400 And do you, do you feel like you share that in any way? 703 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:06,120 No, I'm too much of A feminist. I will tell you that I no, not 704 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,920 at all. I have 5 granddaughters and I 705 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,840 believe that I instill in all of them the necessity to take care 706 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,280 of themselves. I teach them all, you know, do 707 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,920 not ever rely on a man, whether he's in the military or whether 708 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,040 he's the president or wherever, whoever he is, do not rely on a 709 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,920 man. You get your own career, you 710 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,280 make your own money, you take care of yourself. 711 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,240 That's just something that I've been instilling in them because 712 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,680 my experience is I married a man that did not take care of me. 713 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,840 And in fact, when I got remarried, my husband, he said 714 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,440 to me, well, get married to me and I'll take care of you. 715 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,520 And I said, no, no, no, that is not going to happen. 716 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,080 That's not how we roll. He's been retired from the 717 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,840 military for a long time. In fact, he's had another career 718 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,360 since then. I will retire from being a 719 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,680 federal civilian in the next three years. 720 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,960 I've been working my whole life and I plan to always be able to 721 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,960 take care of myself. Even though we've been married 722 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,680 for 22 years. I don't think he's going 723 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,560 anywhere, but I just feel like I learned my lesson young that you 724 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,000 just can't rely on people. You just have to take care of 725 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,640 yourself. So I would never encourage my 726 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,600 granddaughters to marry or marry the military or, you know, 727 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,400 whatever. I I would just encourage them to 728 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,880 take care of themselves and be their own savior. 729 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,160 Yeah. Well, good for you and good for 730 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,480 you for being a cycle breaker on that. 731 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,800 As you look ahead, what are some of the things that you hope for, 732 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,640 either for your own children or your grandchildren like you 733 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,960 said, or for your own relationships with your mother 734 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:52,640 or new found family members? Well, I hope that I have been a 735 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,760 stable person in my grandchildren's lives so that 736 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,800 they ever find themselves in a situation where they don't know 737 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,680 what to do, that they feel like they could come to me and talk 738 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,640 to me and talk it out. Maybe if I had, if I had someone 739 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,920 that was the calm in the storm, maybe things would have been 740 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,240 different. Maybe the decision would have 741 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:13,320 been different. I don't know. 742 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,840 But I feel like I need to be that person for my children and 743 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,800 my grandchildren. And like you said, to break that 744 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,680 cycle because I feel like somehow it started with my 745 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,680 grandmother and I may never know the truth. 746 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,800 I've been, I've been digging, I've been trying to look up 747 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:38,520 clues, but I may never know the truth of why she didn't marry 748 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,520 that man and why she married the other man. 749 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,920 I, I may never know why. But when I look back on the past 750 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,360 and some of the things that were said and some of the things that 751 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,080 I was around with my grandmother and my mother and my aunt, I see 752 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,160 those puzzle pieces falling into place. 753 00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:02,640 Like OK, I see now why this happened or those things were 754 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,560 said. I understand that now, whereas I 755 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,640 did not understand it at all when I was younger. 756 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,480 And, and again, this is not a a Dick for my grandmother because 757 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,600 I don't judge. I am in no position to judge 758 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,840 anyone for anything. I just want to understand what 759 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,360 happened. My grandmother's mother passed 760 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,720 away when she was 12 years old right in front of her, and then 761 00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:28,320 her father ran off. So she was essentially an orphan 762 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,160 at 12. So my research right now is 763 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,240 trying to figure out how does she get from Mississippi down to 764 00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:40,200 Louisiana? There was a seven-year gap, but 765 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:41,560 I don't know what happened to her. 766 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,240 And so I'm just trying to figure out that and try to understand 767 00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:51,680 that, but also with some grace because I cannot judge her for 768 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,840 what decision she made in 1949 when my mother was born. 769 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:01,120 I just, I just can't. And it's not about trying to 770 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,200 figure out what she did wrong. It's really not. 771 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,400 I just really want to understand my grandmother. 772 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,600 And. What happened to her when she 773 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,680 was younger? Yeah, I think you have such a 774 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:17,360 unique perspective being on both sides of it and also being, you 775 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,360 know, kind of downstream from it. 776 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,000 And you have so much compassion and empathy for, for everyone 777 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,880 involved. And I I hope you have that for 778 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,440 yourself, too. I'm learning. 779 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,400 What advice do you have for a parent who is keeping adna 780 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:37,880 surprise from their child? My advice would be to tell them. 781 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:43,160 And I say that because I wish my mother would have sat me down 782 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,160 and told me what happened. I wish she would have told me 783 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,280 the truth. It was shocking to find out from 784 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,280 a stranger. I just basically turned my life 785 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,920 upside down. And the reason I say sit down 786 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,880 and tell it because we have so much advances in technology 787 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:04,160 these days, DNA testing, all these things going on, that the 788 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,440 likelihood of that secret coming out is pretty good. 789 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,680 It would be better coming from you, it really would. 790 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,000 What advice do you have for someone who just uncovered their 791 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,080 own DNA surprise? Feel your feelings. 792 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,120 I am in a couple of groups on Facebook and I've seen people 793 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,320 post things like I'm so mad, I'm so angry, but I can't express 794 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:29,760 that. Yes, you can. 795 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,840 Yes you can. You can express that anger. 796 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,240 You can express being upset. You can't express all of your 797 00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:39,240 feelings because you are entitled to them. 798 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:45,000 I know for me, I held back a little bit because I felt like, 799 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,080 oh, I can't really be mad at my mom for something I did. 800 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,120 But the truth is I could be, I could be mad at her for a minute 801 00:47:54,200 --> 00:48:00,520 because she lied to me. And you know, I felt like, well, 802 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,480 I lied, so how could I be mad? But those were two separate 803 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,120 issues. They really are. 804 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,280 I'm not mad at my mom. I'm not mad at my grandmother. 805 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,480 I'm not mad at anybody right now. 806 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,320 But there was a time when I was mad, but I felt like I had to 807 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,880 keep it in like I felt like I couldn't share that with 808 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,960 anybody. And I feel like when you do 809 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,720 that, you're diminishing your own worth. 810 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,120 Your feelings are worthy. So if you're mad or you're upset 811 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,680 or you're PAD, you're having an identity crisis because trust 812 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,520 me, you will feel it and feel it out loud. 813 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,000 Do that. Do that for yourself because I 814 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,840 think that everybody's entitled to their feelings. 815 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,000 Bobby, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and 816 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,240 sharing your story. It is such a journey that you've 817 00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:52,080 been on. And again, I just, I really 818 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,880 appreciate your vulnerability and coming on and sharing the 819 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,840 mother's perspective as well as your own experience as you've 820 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,600 navigated your DNA surprise. And I wish you nothing but the 821 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,680 best in the future and look forward to reading your book. 822 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,240 Thank you so much for having me on. 823 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,000 I appreciate you letting me have the opportunity to tell my 824 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,440 story. Thanks again to Bobby for 825 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,960 sharing her story, and thanks again to all of the guests who 826 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,960 joined me for Season 9, including past guests who joined 827 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,280 me to share updates. We're going to take a short 828 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,080 break for the holidays, but I'll be back after the new year with 829 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:36,080 brand new DNA Surprise stories. And remember, join me over on 830 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,880 Patreon for early access to ad, free episodes, bonus content, 831 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,440 and more. Until next time, This episode of 832 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:50,040 DNA Surprises was hosted, produced, and edited by me, 833 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,840 Alexis Ourselt. It was mixed and mastered by 834 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,080 Josh Ourselt, Siren Recording Studios.