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Episode #293 With Jeff Ravitz, 
one of the earliest television, 

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I guess, lighting for televised 
concert guys that there is out 

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there and was out there and 
still doing it today at a very 

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high level, still working with 
Bruce Springsteen today. 

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We had some great Bruce, Bruce 
Springsteen stories, a great 

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stick story that I didn't know 
and I've known Jeff for 20 

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something years. 
Just a fantastic talk and a 

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lovely guy. 
A lot to be learned from this 

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man. 
It's why he's always invited to 

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panels and different educational
things. 

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He's a smart dude and he's got a
lot of great information. 

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So enjoy episode #293 with Jeff 
Ravitz. 

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And please like and share and 
subscribe. 

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Thank you. 
Hello and thanks for joining me 

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00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,520
again today on Geez of gear 
#293. 

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This episode is brought to you 
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And episode #293 is also brought
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distribution via via a worldwide
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Pulse Series. 
Well, although today's guest 

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hardly needs an introduction, 
I'm going to give him one 

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anyway, and I am going to read 
his bio as I usually do, and 

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I'll get to that in just a 
moment. 

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But I did want to say that I've 
recently seen him in Las Vegas 

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at LDI, where this gentleman 
took part in our Dining with 

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Dinosaurs event. 
And he was one of the big 

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highlights there, of course. 
And I'm talking about Jeff 

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Ravitz and I'll get into his bio
in just a moment. 

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But first, I wanted to remind 
you because I haven't talked 

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about it in a long time. 
And I'm going to bring up the 

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graphic here too. 
Is coffee called Coffee who are 

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not officially a sponsor, but 
they are the Gees of Gear brand 

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of coffee. 
And I think haven't tried it. 

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Everyone who's tried it through 
this podcast has told me, wow, 

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you're right. 
I drink it every day. 

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It's fantastic coffee and I pay 
for it. 

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You can ask Jamie when you 
contact Coffee Cult to order 

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some. 
They'll tell you Marcel pays for

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his coffee. 
We don't pay him, we don't give 

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him free coffee to talk about 
it. 

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And the reason that I pay for it
is because the money goes to a 

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good cause. 
So Jamie and I cut a deal on 

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this. 
Where this geezers of gear 

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geezers grind coffee from Coffee
Cult. 

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All of the proceeds go towards 
Roby backstage, which then gives

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that money away to a good cause 
in our industry, one of our 

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fallen comrades or someone who 
just needs help, and they 

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determine how that money gets 
shared. 

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And so, yeah, first of all, try 
it because it's great coffee and

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you get it at coffeecult.com. 
But secondly, buy it because it 

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does benefit our industry in a 
very positive way. 

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So I did want to do that 
quickly. 

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And now we'll go back to Mr. 
Ravits. 

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Jeff is a prime time Emmy 
winning lighting designer 

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specializing in live 
entertainment for multi camera 

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television, concert tours and 
special events. 

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His work includes award shows, 
comedy specials, concert films, 

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and televised operas with 
notable projects like the 

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Olympics, medal ceremonies, and 
world tours for Bruce 

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Springsteen, Cher and Ringo 
Starr. 

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Co-author of Lighting for 
Televised Events, Jeff is also 

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the broadcast lighting 
consultant for Coachella since 

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2016 and has designed permanent 
lighting systems for venues 

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including L as Microsoft 
Theater. 

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A global lecturer and recipient 
of numerous accolades well 

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deserved, by the way, including 
a Sports Emmy and the Parnelli 

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Lighting Designer of the Year 
award, Jeff leads his design 

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firm, Intensity Advisors in Los 
Angeles. 

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So. 
Please. 

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Welcome back to the podcast, Mr.
Jeff Rabbits. 

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Mr. Rabbits, how are you? 
I'm great. 

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How are you, Marcel? 
And flip, fantastic. 

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I'm very good. 
It was, it was my mother's 94th 

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birthday yesterday and and she's
still alive and I'm so happy 

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that she's still alive. 
And she, she is in a dementia 

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home. 
But you know, we still have her 

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and and that's great. 
So yeah, still kind of 

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celebrating because I'm just 
happy she's there. 

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And you have some good DNA 
there. 

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Well, let's hope. 
I mean, other than the dementia 

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part, you know, I'm, I'm trying 
to hang on to my brain as long 

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as I can. 
But but yeah, I mean, she's 

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definitely, she's healthy other 
than that. 

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Like that's the crazy thing. 
I have a, a very good friend of 

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mine who just lost his mother. 
She just had her 100th birthday,

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I think at the beginning of 
December or end of November, I 

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can't remember. 
And then she died like the day 

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or the two days before Christmas
at at 100. 

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And she was the opposite of my 
mom. 

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So she she had a very sharp 
mind, like her brain. 

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She could tell you everything 
that's happened in the last 50 

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years or 100 years, really 
smart, really bright, but her 

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body just gave up and, and she 
was 53 lbs when when she passed.

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Oh, wow. 
And, and my mom's healthy. 

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She eats really well, all of 
that stuff, but just her mind is

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gone. 
So I don't know which is worse. 

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I, I've been talking to my 
girlfriend about that. 

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Like, you know, if you had to 
pick one, which would you pick? 

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And hopefully it's neither. 
When you're aware but you see 

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yourself deteriorating, right? 
Yeah. 

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Or are you better off just not 
knowing what's going on and, and

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every day is a happy day, you 
know, or. 

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Whatever exactly I. 
I don't know the technical term 

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or whatever, but my mom's 
version of dementia or 

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Alzheimer's or whatever it is, I
don't even think they know the 

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difference. 
But she's happy. 

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Like generally she's happy. 
She's not beating up nurses. 

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She's not like doing all the 
angry things that I've heard of 

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so many friends of mine parents 
have gone through and she's had 

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it for quite some time. 
And yes, it, it progresses. 

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So every time it gets a little 
harder for her to to recognize 

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you or to have a conversation or
whatever. 

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But but she's happy. 
Like, you know, I've, I started 

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this thing a few years ago where
every time I go visit her, I 

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bring a muffin and I sing happy 
birthday to her and, and she's 

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so happy because it's her 
birthday again, you know, and at

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first the home kind of gave me 
shit for it. 

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Like they, they said I was being
deceptive and, and that kind of 

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thing. 
And I said hey look shut up. 

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You know, she likes it, she has 
fun. 

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And I could sing it again 5 
minutes later and she'd go, oh 

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it's my birthday you know? 
Like she doesn't know so why not

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make her happy for a few 
minutes, you know? 

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Exactly. 
I think it's a good thing that 

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you do. 
And when you consider that, you 

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know, people spend an entire 
lifetime paying attention, 

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stressing out, you know, having 
to, you know, just be on the 

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ball all the time, and then you 
have a few years where you can 

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just sort of relax and let the 
clouds pass you by and. 

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Maybe it's a little Restful, 
You're right. 

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Yeah, I like to think of it that
way, by the way. 

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I, I like to think of that she's
not haunted by, by her mind, but

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but that she's at peace, you 
know, that she's, she's like, 

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whoa, look at the birds and 
she's in the bathroom or 

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something, you know, like 
there's no birds. 

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There's got to be some sort of 
upside. 

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And some people get angry in the
heart state and then then 

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they're, you know, slaves to 
that as well. 

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So yeah, yeah. 
Who knows? 

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Yeah. 
Well, I'll tell you just to stay

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on the health topic for a 
minute. 

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So I'm, I'm a big advocate. 
Like there's a doctor that I've 

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followed for years, probably 
since I turned 50, but his name 

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is Mark Mark Hyman. 
Doctor Mark Hyman. 

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I don't know if you've ever 
heard of him, but he's a he, he 

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is an expert in functional 
medicine, which the shortest 

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version would be basically food 
as medicine. 

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You know, instead of eating to, 
to have fun, you eat to sustain 

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yourself. 
And, and that food all has a 

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function. 
Everything that you eat has a 

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function. 
And but the, the general idea is

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that you want to stay healthy 
until your last days. 

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So, you know, if, if you know, 
somebody could come down a 

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messenger and say, Jeff, you're 
going to live to 97 1/2 years 

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old basically at 97 and, and you
know, just before 1/2 you, you 

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get a little bit sick and you 
die, right. 

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As opposed to the last two or 
three years or 10 years of your 

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life having dementia or heart, 
heart disease or cancer or one 

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of the those things. 
That's the ideal scenario. 

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Well, anyways, his company 
Function Health created a test 

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and I've had a few people in our
industry do it. 

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It's, it's 500 bucks and you get
2 sets of, of tests and, and 

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it's blood and urine and, and 
they basically test 110 things 

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or something as opposed to your 
usual blood test is 10 or 15 

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things if you're lucky. 
And so it's very, very thorough.

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And from that you get back all 
these results that tell you, you

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know, your risk for Alzheimer's,
your risk for 1000 different 

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00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,760
things. 
And lo and behold, after all the

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00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,000
damage that I've done to myself 
in the, in the first half of my 

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00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,080
life, I'm actually in very good 
shape and I'm, I'm of very good 

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health. 
And some will hate to hear it 

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that it looks like I could last 
a lot longer. 

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And one of the things they give 
you is your biological age. 

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And mine is 12 years under my 
real age. 

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So I turned 60 last year and, 
and it says I'm 48. 

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So I like that. 
So. 

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My goal is to become 40, you 
know, and can you go? 

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Backwards. 
You can actually, you can 

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00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,520
reverse aging. 
And so that's what a lot of this

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longevity science is all about. 
It's it's not just about slowing

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aging, but reversing it and. 
What emotional age you're 

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talking about? 
No, no. 

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This is physical age. 
This is biological age. 

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This is like how you're how 
you're. 

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Yeah. 
Emotional age. 

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I think I'm already 12. 
I don't think I've ever gotten 

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past that, to be perfectly 
honest. 

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00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,960
Yeah, but yeah, anyways, it's 
it's just something that I'm 

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pretty passionate about. 
So it's funny because my 

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girlfriend and I bought each 
other this set of tests for 

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00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,840
Christmas, really fun Christmas 
presents. 

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And so she's just doing hers now
and she's very stressed that 

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she's going to end up older than
me in biological age. 

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00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,800
And and so, you know, we got a 
bit of a competition going on, 

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so I think she'll get her 
results in a few days. 

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00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,800
She just did the final Test 
today, so. 

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It sounds amazing, but I hope 
it's not just functional. 

226
00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,160
I hope it's fun eating too. 
Well, I think it is, but it 

227
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,200
takes some time. 
You know, like one of the 

228
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,080
examples he uses is when you can
walk up to a Starbucks counter 

229
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,840
and you're getting your coffee 
and you look at that food behind

230
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,760
the counter and you don't see it
as food anymore. 

231
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,320
Now, you know, you've pretty 
much passed the test, you've 

232
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,000
gotten through it. 
You know, like Froot Loops 

233
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,800
aren't food. 
You know, all that stuff isn't 

234
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,680
food and, and where you crave 
broccoli as opposed to craving a

235
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,840
bowl of Froot Loops. 
You know, that's when you've 

236
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,600
sort of crossed the chasm and 
and gotten into a place where 

237
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,920
you're eating well and it's 
really it's just down to Whole 

238
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,440
Foods. 
You know, like you eat a steak, 

239
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,000
try and make it a grass fed. 
And I don't know if you're vegan

240
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,400
or something, I'm sorry if, if 
you are, but you know, if you 

241
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400
eat a steak, it make it grass 
fed, that's going to be the best

242
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,000
of the best and, and, and eat 
eggs and, and eat, you know, 

243
00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:01,520
sort of like 1 ingredient foods,
you know, So anyways, right, 

244
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:02,040
It's. 
Fun. 

245
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,040
And it's the preservatives and 
the processing that you know, 

246
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,040
that really gets you so. 
That's the worst. 

247
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,400
And seed oils, right? 
And seed oils. 

248
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,880
But maybe when you hit that 97 
and a quarter, maybe you can 

249
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,560
say, give me a big bowl of Froot
Loops. 

250
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,720
I just want you to say fuck it. 
Fuck it, I'm going to start 

251
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,040
doing cocaine and smoking 
cigarettes and eating Froot 

252
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:25,360
Loops. 
Yeah, it's like that's what I 

253
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,840
want to do at the end of my 
life. 80 years without a froot 

254
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,320
loop I'm making. 
It up right now yeah that's 

255
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,200
funny that's funny yeah. 
I. 

256
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,600
You know what I mean? 
When I was a kid, I ate Froot 

257
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,280
Loops, and come to find out, 
because I was in Canada at the 

258
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,800
time, like there's this, I 
forget what the food dye is 

259
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,680
called #5 orange or red or 
something. 

260
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,280
But it's the really nasty one. 
And we use it here in the United

261
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,160
States in Fruit Loops, but they 
don't use it in Canada or in 

262
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,960
Europe in Fruit Loops. 
So the Fruit Loops, as healthy 

263
00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,000
as they could be, are healthier 
in Canada and Europe than they 

264
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,480
are in the United States, which 
is kind of nutty. 

265
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,440
Wow, I'll keep that in mind. 
Yeah, the health. 

266
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:06,800
Diet. 
So I'm with you. 

267
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,240
I'll keep that in mind, he says.
OK, great. 

268
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,440
Are these kind of friends that 
you're giving me here? 

269
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:14,600
Yeah, I'm a big label. 
Reader. 

270
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:16,120
Yeah. 
Are you really? 

271
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:17,520
I am. 
I am. 

272
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,760
Yeah, good for you. 
It's all it's all about those 

273
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,120
preservatives and and and 
processed things can't 

274
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,200
pronounce. 
Yeah, totally true. 

275
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,280
Totally. 
I mean, does that sound 

276
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,120
appetizing? 
Dexa blah, blah, blah, blah, 

277
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,240
like words that are this long. 
Does that sound good for you? 

278
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:36,920
No. 
OK, then maybe you shouldn't eat

279
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,400
it. 
I mean, you can't taste it, so, 

280
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,320
and maybe it makes it taste 
better, at least when you're 

281
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,120
used to it. 
You know when you withdraw from 

282
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,840
it and you get used to not 
having it, then yeah, then then 

283
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,080
you do notice that stuff. 
Totally true. 

284
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,520
Well, and the other thing is 
like we went to a, we found 

285
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,840
we've been living in the same 
place for like 5 years and just 

286
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,880
figured out that right up the 
road from us, there's a farmers 

287
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,599
market that are literally the 
farmers from this area. 

288
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,200
I'm in Wellington where we've 
got lots of horse farms because 

289
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:14,720
it's, it's a horse place here 
and but all the farmers around 

290
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,680
there bring their their stuff 
and they sell it at this, this 

291
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,040
farmers, it's a proper farmers 
market, right? 

292
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:27,720
And we bought bread there and 
it, it's like, you know, really 

293
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,760
nice, really good, healthy, you 
know, it's not like the 

294
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:36,360
modified, you know, whatever and
enriched flour and all that 

295
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:38,360
stuff. 
It's, it's proper stuff. 

296
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,400
And so we bought that and it was
absolutely amazing sourdough 

297
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,280
bread, absolutely amazing. 
And like, on the second or third

298
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:51,640
day, it was already moldy and we
were like, right, I forgot. 

299
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,240
Like, real stuff actually goes 
bad after a short period of 

300
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:56,200
time. 
Right. 

301
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:56,920
Right. 
Yeah. 

302
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,160
They buy bread every day in 
France, correct? 

303
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,880
Yeah. 
Well, and that's actually one of

304
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,520
the interesting things that I 
talk with people about a lot is 

305
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:10,960
I happen to be a pasta and pizza
freak. 

306
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,880
Like, I could eat either one of 
those every single day, except 

307
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,520
physically my body says hell no.
Yeah. 

308
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,360
And, but have you ever noticed, 
like when you're in Italy, you 

309
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:26,000
can eat bread and, and pizza and
pasta all day and you, you don't

310
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,800
get that stuffed, bloated, full 
feeling that, that you feel like

311
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,760
hell here. 
If you have, if you have pizza 

312
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,520
for lunch and pasta for dinner 
here in the United States, 

313
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,760
you're just dying like me 
anyways. 

314
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:40,760
Right. 
Who knows what they put into it?

315
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,200
Yeah, well, and that stuff. 
Wouldn't last three? 

316
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,920
Days you know yeah and you know 
a big part of of what it is is 

317
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:55,680
they use proper like ancient 
grain pasta and and flour is not

318
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,920
enriched flour. 
It doesn't have all the crap 

319
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,200
added to it. 
And so it's, it's, it's an 

320
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,720
interesting thing like 
unfortunately, as you can hear, 

321
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,160
it's a rabbit hole that's pretty
easy to go down when you start 

322
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,360
and you start reading some of 
these books and stuff. 

323
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:14,480
Next thing you know your your 
bio hacking your your health, 

324
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,360
you know and. 
It's everything. 

325
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,560
And you know, if you if you do 
think about it and if you 

326
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:26,400
believe that what you are, what 
you eat, it's important. 

327
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's totally 
true. 

328
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:35,200
So I saw you at LDI. 
You were part of our dinosaurs 

329
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,920
thing, which I think you're far 
too young to be a dinosaur, 

330
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,320
Jeff. 
Yeah. 

331
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,440
Thank you. 
Yeah, and we appreciate you 

332
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,280
doing that. 
Soon we're gonna actually put 

333
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,160
together a call to talk to 
people about doing it again next

334
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,240
year, Obviously much larger, 
very different. 

335
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,400
We're going to have a panel. 
We're going to, we're going to 

336
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,520
make it like somebody said 
something about the fact that it

337
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,000
would be much more fun if we 
could like riff with each other 

338
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,240
and, and bust each other's balls
and, and have a good time. 

339
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,280
And you can only really do that 
on a panel. 

340
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,720
It's hard to do when you you're 
at different tables and stuff 

341
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,160
so. 
All noted. 

342
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,680
And what we've heard sort of 
loud, loud and clear is people 

343
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,160
want, and you know this because 
you do it all the time, but 

344
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,600
people want more access to 
people like you and to be able 

345
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,200
to share, take some of your 
knowledge away and apply it to 

346
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,480
whatever they're doing. 
And so it's, it's, it's fun to 

347
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,920
have another way of, of doing 
that, you know? 

348
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,800
You know, maybe, and I know we 
talked about wanting more young 

349
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,360
people, students and people that
are just launching their careers

350
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,200
in there because that's really 
what they want to sort of tug at

351
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,280
our pants legs and ask us about.
You know, that's what we've 

352
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,600
done. 
If nothing else, we've been 

353
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,320
through it and we might have a 
thought or two about that for 

354
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,760
those people. 
But who knows, maybe since 

355
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,520
there's that lunch involved, 
maybe we spend the first half 

356
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:09,040
hour having that one-on-one, say
having lunch at tables being 

357
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,800
spread out and then it's Ding, 
Ding, Ding. 

358
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,600
OK, everyone up, you know the 
the panelists up onto the stage 

359
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,880
and get into it as you're 
discussing it. 

360
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,640
Might actually be the opposite 
of that. 

361
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,040
Or or the opposite. 
Might be the opposite because 

362
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,960
then, by the way, students who 
are sitting there watching the 

363
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,800
panel would get a feel for yeah,
this rabbits character is the 

364
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,160
one I want to go to his table. 
So, you know, in a sense you're 

365
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,320
marketing yourself while you're 
on the panel. 

366
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,200
And, and then, but you know, 
I'll tell you, one of the 

367
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,880
challenges is that we are 
dealing with this corporate 

368
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,080
thing, the company that owns LDI
and, and of course everything 

369
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,280
they touch has to somehow be 
profitable, where none of us is 

370
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,880
doing it for money. 
We're all doing it to share 

371
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,200
information. 
So yeah, I mean, I got to get 

372
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,000
past that machine and and make 
sure that that everything works 

373
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,800
out for them as well. 
But the idea is to get a lot 

374
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,240
more students in there. 
Some of that'll be done through 

375
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,120
corporate sponsorships, some of 
it will be done through maybe 

376
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,960
just LDI saying you can invite, 
you know, the 1st 100 people. 

377
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:16,240
And then after that, it's got a,
you know, it's paid at these 

378
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,280
different tiers or whatever. 
And then, you know, you just 

379
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,480
like, you could do the same 
thing that Parnelli's do where 

380
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,800
you get companies to buy tables 
and and then you invite people 

381
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,920
to fill those seats. 
So we'll see. 

382
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,680
We'll come up with a way. 
But again, I appreciate you 

383
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,160
being a part of it. 
It was fun to do. 

384
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,200
Yeah. 
Yeah, I appreciate it being part

385
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,160
of it. 
It was a lot of fun. 

386
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,960
Yeah, you're, you're always very
you're always very giving with 

387
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,440
your time. 
And and, you know, in all the 

388
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,400
notes that you sent me for this 
podcast scattered throughout or 

389
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,400
you know, Jeff speaking at this,
teaching at this, you know, 

390
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,840
sharing information at this. 
And I love when people not just 

391
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,200
blowing smoke up your your 
skirt, but I love when people in

392
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,200
our industry are willing and 
able to, to do those things 

393
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,960
because it's super important, 
super important. 

394
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,800
You know, casting it forward is 
truly what it's all about, 

395
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,840
especially in an industry like 
ours. 

396
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,560
It's kind of a a very 
specialized industry. 

397
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,600
It's hard to get real 
information. 

398
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,680
We can learn a lot in school, 
but you learn so much more when 

399
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,640
you're out in the world of 
experience. 

400
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,400
And how else does somebody 
that's just getting into the 

401
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,480
business know that? 
And I like cutting the corners 

402
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,320
for people. 
I like, you know, the idea that 

403
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,760
maybe it's not going to take 
five years or 10 years to 

404
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,280
acquire a certain amount of of 
knowledge and understanding of 

405
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,320
what it takes to work your way 
through the industry, both from 

406
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,320
a career standpoint as well as 
like whatever your art or craft 

407
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,480
might might be. 
And if I figure if we, as the 

408
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,560
more experienced people, can 
help somebody get from point A 

409
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,480
to point B that much faster, 
than our entire industry grows 

410
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,600
faster. 
I agree. 

411
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,120
Yeah. 
Well, and also like, would you 

412
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,800
agree that there's sort of a 
disconnect between the old 

413
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,360
school and the new school ways 
of doing things? 

414
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:14,160
And I think some of that needs 
to disappear and stay old school

415
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,800
and some of it needs to be 
pulled forward into the into the

416
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,600
new school way of doing things. 
And so that's where I see a lot 

417
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,640
of, you know, just some of the 
call it real fundamentals, like 

418
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,120
showing up on time, like, you 
know, just whatever tools you 

419
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:37,520
should always have with you and 
just a lot of the anecdotes and,

420
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,320
and things that come from people
who have done it for a very long

421
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,920
time. 
I love when that information 

422
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,000
gets shared. 
Like, you know, Jake Berry is 

423
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,480
really good at at telling people
and don't forget to do this, you

424
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,720
know, and always do this. 
And, and sometimes it sounds 

425
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,040
maybe a little bitchy or 
whatever, but it's true. 

426
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,840
Like these are really good 
values, you know? 

427
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,680
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 
Yeah. 

428
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,520
I think that if we take, you 
know, the old school and the new

429
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,280
school put them into a blender, 
I think that's, you know, 

430
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,160
probably where where we want to 
go. 

431
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,480
But I mean, people of my 
generation and Jake's 

432
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,560
generation, we didn't have that 
many people really to look up 

433
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,000
to. 
We were starting in the business

434
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,240
at a time when, you know, 
production as we know it today 

435
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,600
was really just ramping up, 
yeah, going from nothing to 

436
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,400
something. 
And so now here we are as people

437
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,640
that can you know, kind of give 
give a couple of notes to the to

438
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,040
the new people that are just. 
Coming. 

439
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,640
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, you know, let's face it,

440
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,080
like back then, one of the 
things is probably, I don't know

441
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,000
if it was the same for you, but 
if if you look at the earliest 

442
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,760
days of technology, it didn't 
exist. 

443
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,920
So a lot of times if you needed 
something, you actually 

444
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,320
literally went to a machine shop
across the street and said, hey,

445
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,040
can you build me one of these 
things? 

446
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,240
Because I need this arm. 
To like hold a light over this, 

447
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,880
you know, set piece or whatever.
And you know, now it's all just 

448
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,760
there like the the toolbox is 
full at this point, right? 

449
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,640
Right, right, right. 
No, I mean, I think of really, 

450
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,520
you know, The Pioneers of the 
equipment in our industry, you 

451
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,320
know, people like Chipmunk that 
were just resourceful and said 

452
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,280
maybe if we just take an idea 
from a car headlamp and turn it 

453
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,240
into a stage light and how can 
we do it? 

454
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,640
And somebody like Bob C, you 
know, helping to create, you 

455
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,440
know, the the can. 
And yeah, that's the exciting 

456
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:34,960
part. 
It's almost like, you know, 

457
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:39,880
creating mayonnaise, you know, 
these completely life changing, 

458
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,320
you know, industry changing 
things that are so small yet so 

459
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,680
huge. 
All of it, like all of the the 

460
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,640
multi pin cable and the like 
audio. 

461
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,200
Some of the stuff in audio is 
even more radical because it 

462
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,840
needs to be louder. 
OK, let me go think about this. 

463
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,160
And they'd go back into their 
garage, you know, nail a bunch 

464
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,880
of things together, put a big 
fat speaker in it. 

465
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,400
Maybe if I bend this piece of 
wood over here, I think that's 

466
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,160
going to make it push out this 
way louder or whatever. 

467
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,360
And, you know, JBL and a lot of 
the big companies were created 

468
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,520
like that in somebody's garage. 
And they just needed a a bigger 

469
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,280
speaker to be able to project 
the sound a little bit further, 

470
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,280
you know, as the venues got 
bigger and you know, like, you 

471
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,000
think about the stuff they used 
for the The Beatles at at Shea 

472
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,040
Stadium or whatever, like it's 
unbelievable. 

473
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:33,080
You know, it's, it's 
unbelievable. 

474
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,600
Like right now you. 
Wouldn't use those little 

475
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,240
speakers on the ground. 
Pretty much the size of a wedge.

476
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,160
Monitor now. 
Well, and the lighting, you 

477
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,440
know, I mean, you wouldn't use 
that today in a nightclub or, or

478
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,360
in a, you know, somebody's 
basement for a party, you know? 

479
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,080
Well, you know, I've been 
working for Ringo for over 30 

480
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,880
years and my first meeting with 
him, he just said kind of take 

481
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,320
it easy on me because the last 
time I did this, there were just

482
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560
three follow spots. 
So, you know, it's hilarious. 

483
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,560
And it's very easy to burn my 
head if you're not careful. 

484
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,760
That's hilarious. 
That's hilarious. 

485
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,680
You're still working with him 
today, right? 

486
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:12,640
I am, I am. 
I'm very lucky he's. 

487
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,800
He's amazing. 
I mean the fact that he, what is

488
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,200
he now, 80 3/4? 
Two, I think 83. 

489
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,840
Yeah, and you know, touring 
isn't easy. 

490
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,040
I even if you're staying in Four
Seasons hotels, it's still not 

491
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,080
easy. 
You know, that's right. 

492
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,720
There's a lot to it. 
And so for him to still be out 

493
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,320
there and still doing it and 
still pulling those huge groups 

494
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,920
of talented musicians together 
to do those shows who reveal. 

495
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,440
It. 
Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. 

496
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,120
It's so amazing. 
And Paul, I mean Paul equally, 

497
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,040
you know, very different, but 
equally like just so impressive 

498
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,440
that, you know, and Mick and all
of the guys that are in their 

499
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,200
80s and, and, you know, let's 
face it, the 70s weren't easy on

500
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,760
people, you know? 
That's right, if they made it 

501
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,360
through till now. 
Correct. 

502
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,040
Yeah. 
Like, you know, acid was sort of

503
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,960
mainstream back then. 
It was like, everybody does 

504
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,840
this, you know, breakfast 
exactly. 

505
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,720
You know, instead of Froot 
Loops, we take acid and, and lo 

506
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,080
and behold, it was probably 
better for you than Froot Loops.

507
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,920
You know, probably you're still 
alive. 

508
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,400
So. 
Anyway. 

509
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,880
I'm not advocating for taking 
acid children, please, as you're

510
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,200
listening to this, do not listen
to anything I'm saying. 

511
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,560
I'm a shit talking idiot from 
Canada. 

512
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,320
But but yeah, it's so you know, 
when I say the disconnect from 

513
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,600
from sort of old school to new 
school, it's, it's not 

514
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,640
necessarily even equipment 
related because obviously you 

515
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,840
have many different choices 
today for equipment that's all 

516
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,640
so damn good, regardless of who 
your favorite manufacturer is. 

517
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,200
And I know for many, many years 
you were so loyal to Morpheus. 

518
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,800
And I actually want to get into 
that when we get into your, 

519
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,280
your, your history a bit. 
And you know, let's face it, 

520
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,520
like if you could compare 
anyone's technology today to 

521
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,720
some of the early Morpheus 
fixtures, at the time they were,

522
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,960
they were leading edge, but not 
so much now. 

523
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,640
And so the fact that you were 
creating shows with with that 

524
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,320
technology versus today's 
technology, very different sort 

525
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,800
of mindset and skill set and all
of that stuff. 

526
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,000
Yes, yes. 
I mean, the only thing I'll say 

527
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,880
about that old technology is 
that the leap it took from its 

528
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:34,040
predecessor, which was the Leco 
in the PAR, yeah, was a much 

529
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,680
bigger leap than I think we're 
making now, smaller incremental 

530
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,080
leaps. 
Not that I discount any of the 

531
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,480
the great advances that we're 
lucky to, you know, have the 

532
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,720
advantage of today, but I think 
in those days they were really 

533
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,480
going from zero to 60 in two 
seconds. 

534
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,040
Yeah, yeah. 
No, I mean massive. 

535
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,360
You know, two decades, massive 
leaps, but even like things like

536
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,920
the, the color fader and the, 
you know, just all of those 

537
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,880
technologies, like it's almost 
fun being old because you, you 

538
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,240
remember when each of those 
things happened and how 

539
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,360
incredible it was and how it 
changed shows and how it changed

540
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,800
your, your ability. 
Probably, you know, as a 

541
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,480
designer, I would guess like 
just wow, now I can do so much 

542
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,320
more. 
Well, clearly less fixtures. 

543
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,640
That's right. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

544
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,600
Nobody's using less fixtures. 
That's. 

545
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,960
The thing that's that's the dumb
thing, isn't it? 

546
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:30,640
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

547
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,560
Like we used to have to have a, 
you know, 1000 Park Hands just 

548
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,440
to be bright enough in each of 
the four or five major colors. 

549
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,840
That's right. 
And, and now we have 1000 moving

550
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,320
lights. 
Each one of them can do every 

551
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,840
color you could possibly want, 
but we still have 1000 moving 

552
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,200
lights on shows for some reason.
Yeah. 

553
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,680
You know, bigger is better, more
is more. 

554
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,880
And I guess I subscribe to that 
theory too. 

555
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,000
And as we work in really big 
venues, you like really filling 

556
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,120
the space and, you know, 
thinking about things visually 

557
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,160
in different ways than we did 
way back then where, you know, 

558
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,040
you'd be in a big arena. 
But really all that was lit was 

559
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,480
that little postage stamp of a 
stage, right? 

560
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,160
Yeah. 
You know, And now we're lighting

561
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,720
the entire arena and putting 
lights in every nook and cranny 

562
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,760
to just really make the 
experience a 360 degree, you 

563
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,600
know, visual treat. 
Well, and plus you're doing 

564
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,800
television with so many of the 
shows that you're a part of as 

565
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,480
well. 
So you do have to, you know, you

566
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,880
do need that audience lighting 
and stuff, I guess. 

567
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,040
But when when you're pushing to 
1000 moving lights, are you 

568
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,440
suggesting that that's the 
designer and not the artist 

569
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,320
who's who's wanting bigger and 
more and. 

570
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,080
I guess it's a combination. 
I certainly know I, I, I 

571
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:53,120
realized that it seems like 
there's a lot of just fru fru 

572
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,760
put in. 
You know that when when you 

573
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,720
think that you can really light 
the band with 20 lights, what's 

574
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,480
all the rest of that stuff 
doing? 

575
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,560
That's true. 
And but it is, you know, 

576
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:11,000
creating that extravaganza feel 
and and also visually filling 

577
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,080
things in, certainly for 
television. 

578
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,800
When you think about a multi 
camera shoot and there's a 

579
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,280
camera looking at every 
imaginable point of view to the 

580
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,360
stage, you know, some of it's 
almost it's behind the stage, 

581
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,480
some of it's from the 
performer's point of view 

582
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,680
looking, looking out at the 
crowd. 

583
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,000
You want a background of some 
sort everywhere so that it's an 

584
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,280
immersive experience. 
You know, everybody in the room 

585
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,760
becomes part of the show. 
That might not be the same same 

586
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,720
concept for an opera, but it 
certainly is for, you know, for 

587
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,440
a big rock show where it just 
becomes, you know, big 

588
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,720
celebration. 
So that's a little bit more 

589
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,880
justification. 
Do the, do the acts ask for 

590
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,880
that? 
I'm, you know, some people will 

591
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,840
give you the mandate that I want
it to look really huge. 

592
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,840
Some, in some cases they want it
to be subtle and simple and you 

593
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,159
have to find ways to make it 
look big without so many 

594
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,400
fixtures. 
But you know, I, I think it's 

595
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,480
more the designers than it is 
the bands. 

596
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,080
Really, I, I guess I always just
assumed it was the artist ego. 

597
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,719
You know, like Beyoncé saying, 
you know, you better make my 

598
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,280
lighting package look better 
than that nasty little Taylor 

599
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,400
Swift, you know, and I was 
probably the worst Beyoncé 

600
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,040
impression ever, But you know 
what I mean? 

601
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,120
Like, I always just assumed it 
was the artist, the artist ego 

602
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,120
just saying that there's was 
this big. 

603
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,080
I want this big. 
Well, I'll tell you, I'm, I'm 

604
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,560
down to just a few touring acts 
at this point, my career. 

605
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,159
And that's not the mandate they 
gave. 

606
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,080
They give me, I, they pretty 
much let me do what I need to do

607
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:01,120
and I'll show them what I have 
in mind periodically in the 

608
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:06,840
design development phase. 
But I don't, I haven't really. 

609
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,680
Certainly somebody like Bruce 
Springsteen doesn't say I, I 

610
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,760
want it to be bigger than 
anything the world has ever seen

611
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,040
or bigger than the stones. 
That's not his MO at all. 

612
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,560
But I think he knows that we're 
going to come through with a 

613
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,680
show that's, you know, equal in 
magnitude to the performance. 

614
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,000
That he's getting He doesn't 
want to look small. 

615
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,600
Right, right. 
Yeah, I completely thinks. 

616
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,640
About it until he sees it. 
That's one thing about that 

617
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,680
particular artist. 
He has to to know what he likes.

618
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,800
Does does Bruce get involved in 
that process? 

619
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,000
Like does he, does he sit with 
you and say, what if we could do

620
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,680
this instead? 
Or what about this? 

621
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,280
Or does he? 
Is he? 

622
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,840
Over the years, and it's been 
over 40 years for me now. 

623
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,160
Yeah, that's wild. 
By the way, congratulations. 

624
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,720
Like what a what an unbelievable
ride, you know? 

625
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,520
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm very, very 
fortunate. 

626
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,720
And you know when you work for 
somebody that long, you kind of 

627
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:10,360
get into their head and know 
what they like. 

628
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,760
So I would say in the last 
several years there's been less 

629
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,560
pre production exchange of ideas
with us. 

630
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,440
He just trusts you. 
But he's also done some crazy 

631
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,000
smaller projects over the years.
The Seeger session show, that 

632
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,560
was a real departure for him, 
anything he had done. 

633
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,640
And the, and the few times that 
he's done solo acoustic shows, 

634
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,920
that's where I've really gotten 
into, you know, one-on-one early

635
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,880
discussions. 
But that's it's been many years 

636
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,840
since we've done anything like 
that. 

637
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,560
And, you know, there were ideas 
that he would toss out, things 

638
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,040
he would ask for. 
We would do those things and 

639
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,680
then he wouldn't like them. 
You know, artists have to 

640
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,720
develop their own vocabulary 
too, to speak to the designer. 

641
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:56,920
And sometimes they ask for 
something and it's totally 

642
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:02,400
misinterpreted. 
And so it's a, it's a dance to 

643
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,200
get that done. 
But no, I'd say in the last, you

644
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,240
know, 1520 years he and I have 
had very, very few pre 

645
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:16,520
production exchanges other than 
him seeing drawings. 

646
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,280
That. 
That management presents to him.

647
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,960
Well, that that's because it's 
you, you know, like, I I mean, 

648
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,520
if it were some young unknown 
designer or something, he'd 

649
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,600
probably be a heck of a lot more
involved. 

650
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,800
But he trusts you, you know, 
obviously you've earned trust 

651
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,200
over that many years. 
Yeah. 

652
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,080
So is there any sign of him 
stopping? 

653
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,520
I mean, obviously he's going to 
have to at some point. 

654
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,600
We all do. 
I guess you know, he was. 

655
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:49,240
He was interviewed last year and
they did a documentary about the

656
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,680
the assembly of the most recent 
tour. 

657
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,440
Yeah, it's still in progress, 
even though they're off for a 

658
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,560
couple of months. 
And they said, so Bruce, you 

659
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,160
know, when, when do you think 
you're going to hang it up? 

660
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,920
And he said I'm not stopping 
until the wheels come off. 

661
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,320
Well, that's not happened. 
Now he's got a lot of options 

662
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,920
whether he could continue to do 
E Street Band tours where, you 

663
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,680
know, it's conducive to being on
a stadium stage where he is 

664
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,360
jumping off the stage and 
running on the ego ramp all the 

665
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,760
way to one side of the stadium 
and all the way to the other and

666
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,960
out on. 
You know, I don't know how long 

667
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,520
he'll be able to do that. 
He's still doing it, but I know 

668
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,560
and but at the end of this tour,
which more or less, you know, 

669
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:44,360
may end at the end of 2025 with 
scattered dates, I don't think 

670
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,640
they're going to be hitting the 
road as solidly as they did the 

671
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,800
last couple of years. 
But they've got some make up 

672
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,720
shows to do and they've filled 
in and they may just get 

673
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,480
inspired to do do a little bit 
more. 

674
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,680
Who knows? 
I'd feel he's going to keep 

675
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,720
going at this pace and then he 
can do solo acoustic. 

676
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:07,440
He can do that way. 
He can put together like an R&B 

677
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,720
band because he's gotten into 
R&B in a big way in the last few

678
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:12,000
years. 
Interesting. 

679
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:16,320
So he can do things that are 
less physically demanding, you 

680
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,000
know, maybe even less vocally 
demanding because, you know, an 

681
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,760
E Street Band show. 
He does a lot of, you know, 

682
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,240
singing and screaming at the top
of his lungs. 

683
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:29,800
And that's part of the appeal 
and part of his of his, you 

684
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,040
know, personality. 
But you know, you do something 

685
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,160
like a solo acoustic, he's 
barely even on the mic. 

686
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,200
You know, he he shows some 
subtlety when he does that. 

687
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,600
And I think that would be 
something that would appeal to 

688
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,480
him. 
So anyway, long long answer. 

689
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,240
But the rest, the rest of the 
street band, they hold up pretty

690
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:53,680
well, like Van Zandt and and 
like are the rest of them. 

691
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:56,080
They're they're doing OK too, 
because they're all getting up 

692
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,960
there too. 
Absolutely, yeah. 

693
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,320
We're all aging. 
I had a discussion with Max 

694
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,680
Weinberg, the drummer. 
Last year and we're just kind of

695
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,280
talking about, you know, our 
lives and we kind of got back 

696
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,360
together after not seeing each 
other for for a couple of years.

697
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,520
And, you know, he's saying, 
yeah, that, you know, with 

698
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,280
drumming is, you know, perhaps 
the most physically demanding 

699
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:23,200
job in the band. 
And he said, well, I've learned 

700
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:28,400
how to, you know, play harder 
without working harder, you 

701
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,880
know, and a guy like that, he's 
spent so many years, you know, 

702
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,760
at the kit. 
He knows how he can get the 

703
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,400
sound he wants without, you 
know, at working every muscle in

704
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,280
his body to, you know, 100%, 
right, Right. 

705
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:43,640
That's kind of what it's all 
about. 

706
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,480
I mean, you can, you know, 
tennis preservation, how to do 

707
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,800
that. 
Everyone you know figures that 

708
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,720
out at some. 
Point. 

709
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,600
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, the young ones are always 

710
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:52,880
preservation. 
Like. 

711
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,480
Man, you know you don't have to 
put, you know 300% of yourself 

712
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:58,720
into it if you know what you're 
doing. 

713
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,680
Well, it's similar to athletes 
like, I don't know if you're a 

714
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,000
tennis fan, but everyone always 
said Nadal was going to, you 

715
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,360
know, there's no way this guy's 
going to even make it to his 

716
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,720
30s. 
But but he he changed his tennis

717
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:15,080
style as he got into his 20s and
especially into his late 20s and

718
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,000
early 30s. 
And eventually he did have to 

719
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:22,440
retire, but but you know, he was
a crazy like 17 year old, like 

720
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,480
he, he got every ball that he 
wasn't supposed to get and stuff

721
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,760
like that. 
But I remember, you know, 

722
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,120
McEnroe and others would always 
say this guy ain't going to 

723
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,040
last. 
He needs to let some of those go

724
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,280
by him, you know, because he's 
killing himself going after some

725
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:38,480
of these balls. 
Yeah. 

726
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,840
And similar thing, you know, you
got to start thinking longevity 

727
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,440
and and sustenance, you know, 
how can I keep this thing going 

728
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,880
as long as possible? 
Right. 

729
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,200
You know, right. 
I did see his last match on TV 

730
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,400
and yeah, it was the same thing.
He was running after every ball,

731
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,080
going for it, you know, as hard 
as he could. 

732
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,480
And so. 
Yeah, what about Djokovic? 

733
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,560
Like Federer, who doesn't seem 
to exert nearly, you know, the 

734
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,520
energy. 
No, he seems like he's putting 

735
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,240
no effort into it. 
Yeah. 

736
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:11,800
Djokovic to me is, is a phenom. 
Like this is a guy that could 

737
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,760
possibly play till friggin 50 
years old, you know? 

738
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,280
Yeah, yeah. 
He'll just, he'll find a way 

739
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:23,120
because he's so in charge of of 
his physical body and his his 

740
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,000
strength and his fitness and all
of those things. 

741
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,000
He's just got such a better, you
know, understanding of what he's

742
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,000
capable of than anybody else 
does. 

743
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,360
And you know, I hated when they 
booed him when he exited the 

744
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,440
Aussie Open because that's a guy
that's super authentic. 

745
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,400
Like he's not leaving because 
he's down on the scorecard or 

746
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,440
something. 
He's he's leaving because he 

747
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,840
knows his body and he, he can't,
he can't keep going, you know, 

748
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,560
so that's why he walked away 
because I've seen him come back 

749
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,880
way too many times from 2 sets 
down. 

750
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,920
He's not going to quit, you 
know, he's, he's not that guy. 

751
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,120
Yeah. 
So exactly. 

752
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,480
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

753
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,240
Yeah, yeah, I remember that. 
Who? 

754
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,240
Who? 
So you said three artists that 

755
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:06,880
you're still working with. 
Who are the other two? 

756
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,360
Not Styx, right? 
Not no, actually it's only two. 

757
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:17,040
I'm not really involved with 
Styx anymore, OK? 

758
00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:21,720
And and that was almost a 50 
year relationship, yeah. 

759
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,520
I know that was a long one too. 
But it was just time for me to, 

760
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,560
you know, Libby Gray, who's who 
was our tour lighting director 

761
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:35,520
for many years, had taken the 
show to a really good place in 

762
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,880
my absence there in other parts 
of the world. 

763
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,680
And with her improvising and 
taking, you know, the bones of 

764
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,240
what what had been created 
before really turned it into 

765
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:48,440
something of her own. 
And so it was time for me to 

766
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,400
step back and let her do that. 
But I'm still involved with 

767
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,360
Ringo and kind of in the same 
way I designed the show. 

768
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,960
I'm, you know, maybe a creative 
consultant. 

769
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,000
I do the plot and I you know, 
but but there are some really 

770
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,280
talented. 
Yeah, you don't tour with it. 

771
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,800
I don't. 
I don't tour with it. 

772
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,080
Yeah, You know, Greg Classen is 
out now. 

773
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,920
Susan Rose was with it for, 
yeah, 20 years. 

774
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,880
She did a great job. 
And yeah, both of those lighting

775
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,720
directors really take it so much
further on a day-to-day basis 

776
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:23,560
when they have to improvise, use
local equipment and that's, that

777
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,600
doesn't really match up to the 
original plot. 

778
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,280
So, but I am still involved, you
know, with Ringo and then and 

779
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,360
then Bruce. 
So I'm really not out there 

780
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,680
looking for touring work at the 
moment. 

781
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,840
I'm, you know. 
I mean, it's funny because 

782
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,600
there's so many people that I 
talked to. 

783
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,640
Obviously my podcast is called 
Geezers of Gear, but there's so 

784
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,200
many people I talked to whose 
artists are getting close to 

785
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,560
aging out. 
And I always ask those questions

786
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,800
like, OK, so you out looking for
25 year old artists, you know, 

787
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,640
to replace them? 
Or are you going to phase your 

788
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,360
career into a different stage? 
When, when, when those artists 

789
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,600
phase out and you get a 
different bunch of answers? 

790
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:12,480
Obviously for everyone it's a 
different, you know, life plan 

791
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,840
or whatever you want to call it,
a strategy that says, you know, 

792
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,400
I'm going to go spend more time 
doing whatever, learning how to 

793
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,920
water ski, you know, or whatever
it is. 

794
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,400
I don't know but. 
I was always interested in so 

795
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,440
many different things. 
And there was something about, 

796
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,440
you know, being on the road and 
touring that I felt, you know, 

797
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,840
for me anyway, was sort of a 
self limiting scenario. 

798
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:42,320
And as I toured less and even 
though I was, I was given the, 

799
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,560
you know, the privilege of 
designing these shows, 

800
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,240
rehearsing them and then 
exiting, you know, the, the 

801
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:52,440
tour, that gave me the 
opportunity to get into some 

802
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,400
different things. 
And I thought, well, maybe 

803
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,160
something like architectural 
lighting would give me the 

804
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,000
opportunity to travel less and 
use my brain in a different way.

805
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,240
And I did that for a, for a 
number of years. 

806
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:06,640
It wasn't really, you know, 
something that I that that I 

807
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,680
enjoyed all that much, but TV 
had been something that had 

808
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,360
always sort of ran an 
undercurrent throughout my 

809
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:20,600
career because it was there 
early on when when I first began

810
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,720
is when MTV suddenly, you know, 
arrived on the scene and 

811
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,840
everybody had to have a music 
video and teams of video. 

812
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,320
People would come in and and and
shoot a live show or take the 

813
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,480
band into a studio and do some 
sort of like semi scripted 

814
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,120
thing. 
And I would sort of watch that 

815
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,560
in with with great interest. 
And I thought, you know, later 

816
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,360
on, Fast forward many, many 
years, I thought, well, 

817
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,000
television is something that I 
could probably grow older more 

818
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,080
gracefully in because, you know,
it's a, it's a field where you 

819
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,480
know, they, they value the 
experience And you're, there are

820
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,920
a lot of, you know, older 
people, you know, 50 plus people

821
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,360
in it, whereas the touring 
industry, they are, you know, 

822
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,000
recruiting from the cradle. 
Yeah, it's a young man's game 

823
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,000
right now on people's game. 
I shouldn't say man, because 

824
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,960
there's a lot of fortunately. 
I mean, I think it's a really 

825
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,520
great thing. 
You know, I'm not, I'm not a big

826
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,120
DEI guy, but I love that more 
women are coming into our 

827
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,720
industry and and young girls and
stuff. 

828
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,080
I think it's good for for them 
and it's good for the industry. 

829
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,120
It's a great career. 
You know, yeah, I, I, I totally 

830
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:32,920
agree. 
And I, and I do think that it's 

831
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,720
a younger person's game. 
And when you've got younger acts

832
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:41,400
who are the ones that are 
really, you know, charting 

833
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,040
highest, they want, you know, 
people that they can relate to. 

834
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,800
Those artists want somebody 
that's more or less in the in 

835
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,680
their age group and somebody who
is attuned to all of that music,

836
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,680
liking that music better. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

837
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,800
Although it's, it's funny 
because I, I recently had Marty 

838
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,280
Homme on the podcast again and, 
and we were talking about that 

839
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,280
and you know, he's, he's not 
what I would call that new 

840
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,360
generation young person or 
anything. 

841
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:20,600
But you know, he's got Olivia 
Rod Rodrigo, he's got, he's got 

842
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,920
a few young artists and that are
very hot. 

843
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,120
And so I don't know, I think 
well at the tour, he's not 

844
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,040
designing for them. 
He's the tour manager. 

845
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,400
He's. 
The tour manager you sort of 

846
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,120
want, you know? 
The experience? 

847
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:39,080
Yeah, that's true too. 
You know, so, but yeah, I mean, 

848
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,800
I, I agree. 
Now I have the advantage of 

849
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,440
working at Coachella every year.
Yeah. 

850
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,080
And that gives me an opportunity
to plug into a lot of artists 

851
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,000
that I wouldn't be paying that 
much attention to otherwise. 

852
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,480
And so I get like, a full, you 
know, master's degree in new 

853
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,440
music every year. 
Yeah. 

854
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:05,240
So what is your what, what's 
your basic, you know, in a 

855
00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:08,200
nutshell, responsibility with 
Coachella? 

856
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:14,440
Well, I'm, I'm there as the 
broadcast lighting consultant, 

857
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:19,400
OK, for whatever that's worth. 
And how much I really accomplish

858
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:24,640
is anybody's guess. 
Most of the headline acts come 

859
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,400
in with what I'm supposed to do 
is help all of these acts 

860
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:34,360
understand that we are showing 
this streaming around the world,

861
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,640
80 million plus hits every year 
and growing annually. 

862
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:45,680
And just to understand that it 
it's important that those people

863
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,320
that can only see the show on 
their computer screen or their 

864
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:55,080
phone or whatever need something
to look at that is friendly to 

865
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,320
the camera. 
That doesn't mean blow it out, 

866
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,640
make it look like the 11 O clock
news. 

867
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,280
Now the headliners on the big 
stages really understand that 

868
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,360
before we even begin. 
And the only thing I really have

869
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,440
to remind them of is levels. 
We don't really care about weird

870
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,040
color and things like that. 
We're not trying to necessarily 

871
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,240
make everybody look that pretty,
you know, unless, unless they 

872
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:20,600
want to be. 
I would assume that if you're 

873
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:24,040
Beyoncé's lighting designer or 
Taylor Swift's or Lady Gaga's, 

874
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,440
you're going to do your best to 
make them look really good. 

875
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,640
Anyway. 
What they need to understand is 

876
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,920
sometimes levels can get way 
very uneven and I can help them 

877
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,120
smooth those those sorts of 
things out. 

878
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,400
It's the smaller tent. 
So, you know, Coachella has a 

879
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,480
couple of big headline stages 
and then they've got the smaller

880
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,760
tents where the new acts and the
indie acts and the acts that are

881
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:50,680
just almost ready to, to burst 
onto the headline stage are 

882
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,200
playing. 
And a lot of those acts say my 

883
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,400
artist wants no light on them. 
And so when you look at a, a, a 

884
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,800
smaller lighting system of maybe
100 lights, none of them are 

885
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,640
aimed at the stage. 
It's all out, you know, at the 

886
00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:08,200
crowd. 
Yeah, that part looks good. 

887
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,280
And I say, look, if you could 
just devote 10 lights, that one,

888
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,760
that one, that one, that one 
onto your artist. 

889
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,440
And it doesn't have to be even 
lighting, and it doesn't. 

890
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,240
It just needs to be some level 
of illumination. 

891
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:23,080
To see the artist. 
Yes, there are people that would

892
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,800
like to see your lead singer, 
they'd like to see your 

893
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,200
guitarist, etcetera, etcetera. 
If I can do that, if I can take 

894
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,760
it from zero to four. 
Yeah. 

895
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,200
On a on a zero to 10 scale, I 
feel like I've accomplished. 

896
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:36,440
A lot interesting. 
Yeah. 

897
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,280
You know, it's funny because I 
can't remember which who it was.

898
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,080
Somebody on my podcast said it 
to me one time where he said, 

899
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,920
you know, I'm designing a show 
for 20,000 people right here, 

900
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,400
but like 2 million people that 
are going to be viewing it on a 

901
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,280
on a four or five inch screen. 
And I'm very thoughtful about 

902
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,560
that. 
So he's, he's actually designing

903
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,920
it. 
And as he's looking at the show,

904
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,360
he'll look at it on his on his 
iPhone or whatever as well. 

905
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,920
Because you know, by the time 
the show ends, there's going to 

906
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,840
be 10,000 of those videos that 
are uploaded to YouTube or 

907
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,800
whatever. 
And so many people are going to 

908
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,680
see it, so many more than those 
in the audience. 

909
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,960
And so why wouldn't we give it 
some thought even at that level?

910
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,560
But then you talk about a 
Coachella. 

911
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,400
So I mean, I think it's really 
wise that they have you there 

912
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:33,400
that and my guess is that you're
just trying to get them to be at

913
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,400
least thinking about that. 
If nothing else. 

914
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,840
You know, like just think about 
the fact that there's more 

915
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,640
people seeing it on a phone than
are seeing it in front of that, 

916
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,920
you know, B or C or D stage that
you're on right now. 

917
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,320
That's exactly right. 
That's exactly right. 

918
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,600
You know, the live audience is 
perfectly OK with the big broad 

919
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,960
picture and with the ambience in
the room, they can probably see 

920
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,720
what's going on on stage anyway.
There's a lot of video, there's 

921
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:03,080
just a lot of bounce light. 
But that doesn't work for the 

922
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:04,880
cameras. 
So it is those people that are 

923
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,440
just watching on their phone. 
And so it's gratifying if I can 

924
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,360
bring it up a couple of notches.
I hate to make it seem like my 

925
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,720
bar is set so low that if I take
it from zero to four, that's 

926
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:17,760
sufficient. 
But believe me, that's a good 

927
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,760
day. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's really

928
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,880
complicated, you know, because 
again, everybody has, you know, 

929
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,080
their set of goals. 
And then I think the when you 

930
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,520
have a lighting designer for 
some small up and coming act or 

931
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,320
whatever, and then you have this
other lighting designer who's 

932
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,840
coming in and saying, hey, we 
want to make sure that, you 

933
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,280
know, his, his back's going to 
go up a little bit. 

934
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:40,880
Right. 
Like you can't come in here and 

935
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,600
tell me what to do. 
I know. 

936
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,880
Sent on my work many plans. 
Yeah, well, you're not the most 

937
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,320
physically, you know, 
frightening food either. 

938
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,040
So. 
So if you're coming out to my 

939
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,280
front of house location and 
telling me what to do, you know,

940
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,600
I'm not sure that you're going 
to scare me much. 

941
00:53:57,960 --> 00:53:59,760
Just like, who's talking? 
Oh. 

942
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,040
There he is, that guy. 
That's funny. 

943
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,920
So are you serious? 
And in saying that, the 

944
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,880
television thing was just kind 
of like a almost accidents like 

945
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,880
where you just went well, you 
know, this MTV thing is getting 

946
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:17,640
kind of popular. 
Like, these people are going to 

947
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,280
need somebody who knows how to 
like these things, and maybe I 

948
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,800
should do that. 
It was a little bit of that. 

949
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,800
I mean, I was intrigued by it as
well. 

950
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,080
For one thing, I was intrigued 
by the fact that it wasn't as 

951
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,640
easy as it looked. 
I thought that, you know, what 

952
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,440
they would do would be bring in 
some big 10 KS and just flood 

953
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:36,880
the stage and that would be 
that. 

954
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:38,600
And that's not what they did at 
all. 

955
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,640
They came in and they made it, 
you know, by and large they made

956
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,160
it look, you know, fairly 
interesting and did change a lot

957
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,840
of my levels. 
And I thought, wait a minute, if

958
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,000
there's more to this than than I
realized. 

959
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:55,760
And then I kind of the light 
bulb went off and I realized 

960
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:01,240
it's so much about the close up 
because 90% of the shots are 

961
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:03,920
more or less some kind of a 
close up or A2 shot. 

962
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:09,600
And, and it's not easy to make 
those, those shots look good and

963
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,400
make people look, you know, 
decent. 

964
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,880
And, you know, that little smear
of color that looks so good to 

965
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,320
the live audience looks a little
weird when it's out of context. 

966
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,880
And that's all you're seeing. 
And you're seeing somebody with 

967
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,080
a big smear of orange or, or 
blue on their face. 

968
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,640
It doesn't make as much sense. 
How can you do that same thing 

969
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,320
and sort of impart that color 
statement but not make it look 

970
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,840
so strange to the people that 
are that are watching on on 

971
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:40,360
their TV? 
So I did get intrigued by it, 

972
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:45,200
but I also saw it as the future.
I saw it as, you know, a 

973
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,520
different way, you know, to 
operate. 

974
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,400
And I like the precision of it 
for some reason there. 

975
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,160
There was something about the 
mechanics of how light and and 

976
00:55:55,160 --> 00:56:00,400
the camera and the iris of the 
camera work that that I enjoyed.

977
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,440
And then I partnered up with Jim
Moody. 

978
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,720
Well, that didn't hurt. 
That didn't hurt. 

979
00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:09,160
And he had a lot to say and a 
lot to share with me. 

980
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:14,760
And, you know, just really, I, 
you know, I developed kind of a 

981
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:19,720
love for, for the art form. 
How could how could I make those

982
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:24,720
shows look as good as possible 
on camera without robbing the 

983
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:26,880
live audience of the experience 
also? 

984
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,680
And that that was early 90s, I 
think, right? 

985
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,760
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, it started in the 80s 

986
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,880
and. 
And the other thing about it was

987
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,920
that I, I resented the fact that
the video crews would come in 

988
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,160
and they'd sort of push me aside
and try to relight my show. 

989
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,800
And so I thought, well, I want 
to learn more about this so that

990
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:51,280
I'm valuable to them and they 
won't feel so compelled to to 

991
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,120
Get Me Out of their way. 
Right. 

992
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,000
So that was so. 
And then by the 90s is when it 

993
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,520
really started to to take hold. 
And then in the 90s is when I 

994
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:05,160
partnered up with Jim and really
started seeing the stuff he was 

995
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:10,280
doing and, and befriended people
like Bill Klages and Bob 

996
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:15,960
Dickinson and watch what they 
did and saw how artfully they 

997
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,400
they did what they were doing. 
And I thought, OK, this appeals 

998
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:21,240
to me. 
Yeah, yeah. 

999
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,600
And I know I should know the 
answer to this, but I'm going to

1000
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:32,360
ask you anyways. 
Really specifically like live 

1001
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,960
music and and sports and stuff 
like that. 

1002
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,040
Not television or, or film or 
any of that kind of lighting, 

1003
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,600
right? 
Yeah, I, you know, I wasn't 

1004
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,840
really equipped to go into film.
I suppose I could have tried to 

1005
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,800
become a cinematographer, but 
that really wasn't on my plate 

1006
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,240
because I had, I was so firmly 
involved in the live 

1007
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:53,800
entertainment industry. 
And. 

1008
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,480
And I saw that there was this 
whole thing about live 

1009
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,440
entertainment being shot for TV.
That was an enormous market. 

1010
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,520
And there were all of these 
people there that didn't 

1011
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,720
understand it. 
Yeah, you know, they didn't 

1012
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,680
understand what that transition 
was going to be and these other 

1013
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,960
consultants and you know, 
so-called experts had to come in

1014
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,120
and help. 
And I thought, okay, I can be 

1015
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:17,920
that person. 
So when I aged. 

1016
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,280
Out. 
Of the touring industry, that's 

1017
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,640
something that I can, you know, 
that I can do. 

1018
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,400
Plus, I find it really 
interesting, other than the 

1019
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:33,080
one-on-one, what friction that I
might have dealing with, you 

1020
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,080
know, an LD that I would whose 
show I was adapting. 

1021
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,440
And so I thought I was a 
recipient of that for so many 

1022
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,680
years. 
I should know psychologically 

1023
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:43,800
how to approach these people. 
And that's what I did. 

1024
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,800
I tried to create some sort of a
bedside manner that wasn't so 

1025
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:49,680
off putting. 
Yeah. 

1026
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,080
Yeah, I know that. 
I I've been witness to some of 

1027
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,800
the situations where, you know, 
somebody's got a tour out and 

1028
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:02,400
then Brandon or you or someone 
is brought in to light it for an

1029
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,280
HBO special. 
And you see some of the 

1030
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:09,240
discussions, let's call it that,
are not always extremely 

1031
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,800
productive. 
But I think by this point, we've

1032
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,720
all gotten pretty used to it 
because of all the streaming and

1033
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:18,520
all the different things that go
on now. 

1034
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,200
Like, I think more shows are 
shot for television than are not

1035
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,160
at this point, you know, or shot
for some type of a device 

1036
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:26,560
anyways. 
Plus iMac. 

1037
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,080
Yeah. 
Yeah, iMac. 

1038
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:35,480
Yeah, of course. 
Have digital cameras made it so 

1039
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:40,720
much easier now? 
Well, I mean, for sure there was

1040
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:45,280
a time when the cameras were so 
much less forgiving for light 

1041
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:49,760
levels and colour and certain 
colours were, you know, you were

1042
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,320
taught like the first lesson you
learned when you were getting 

1043
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,800
into television was no red 
because cameras couldn't 

1044
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:58,560
register red. 
Now they can. 

1045
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,440
And there's so there's so much 
more. 

1046
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:07,240
And now of course. 
You can go down to super low 

1047
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,400
light levels, which you wouldn't
do for a concert necessarily 

1048
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,840
where there's a live audience, 
but you might do for a show 

1049
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,280
that's on a sound stage where 
you're not worried about the 

1050
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,800
audience. 
And there's so many advantages 

1051
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:24,720
to working at lower light levels
that that the cameras allow you 

1052
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:25,960
to do that. 
What? 

1053
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:27,560
Why wouldn't you? 
Yeah. 

1054
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,640
What about video, though? 
Like, like all the LED screens 

1055
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,280
that everyone has? 
Is that a real problem when it 

1056
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,680
comes to shooting it for for 
television? 

1057
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:37,560
Yeah. 
Oh, yeah. 

1058
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,320
It just seems like a brightness 
war, you know, like you're going

1059
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,680
to go that bright, we're going 
to do this, you know, and 

1060
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:45,880
everything. 
The levels just keep getting 

1061
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,560
higher and higher and we're 
getting lights that are now 6070

1062
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,480
thousand lumens on these rigs. 
And it's like, what for? 

1063
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,520
Like when did we ever decide 
that it needed to be bright as 

1064
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,000
the sun, right? 
Right. 

1065
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,840
Well, you know, and whoever ever
has their their hand on the dial

1066
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,000
wants their toy to be the 
biggest I guess. 

1067
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,720
Right. 
Yeah, yeah, that's true. 

1068
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:08,720
But. 
But but truly, you know, there 

1069
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,640
was a time when the screens 
needed to be brighter just to 

1070
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,520
register properly. 
If you took it down to the level

1071
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,280
that you know the lighting 
people wanted, it would start to

1072
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:23,080
flicker and lose, lose quality. 
Now the screens can go down to 

1073
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,240
much, much lower levels, but the
problem is the brightness. 

1074
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,520
I mean, you can never get 
anybody on stage bright enough 

1075
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,400
with the stage lighting to match
what those screens are putting 

1076
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,240
out right in your face. 
You. 

1077
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,360
Know on the face, on on. 
It is like reflective. 

1078
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,640
The screen is direct light right
in, right into the eye and right

1079
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,960
into the camera. 
So there's that, and then the 

1080
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,120
that's gotta be. 
Difficult that that's tough 

1081
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,240
because I mean, it's even hard 
when you're trying to take a 

1082
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,560
selfie or something, you know, 
just to, you know, to light your

1083
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:00,120
to light your face enough with, 
with an LED screen behind you 

1084
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,120
that's just blasting forward or 
whatever. 

1085
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:04,840
Well, it's like it being in 
front of a window. 

1086
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,840
Yeah, of course. 
And trying to take a picture and

1087
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,840
somehow your face gets really 
dark and the window looks great,

1088
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,240
right? 
So there's that. 

1089
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,640
And then the color is usually 
way off. 

1090
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:20,680
And like for any, for instance, 
situation like Coachella where 

1091
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:25,840
they spend the entire first half
of the show day in daylight. 

1092
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,120
And so of course, the screens 
have to be bright and they and 

1093
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:34,360
they're usually matched to 
daylight as you get closer to 

1094
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:38,360
night time and then completely, 
you know, night, night time, 

1095
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,680
those screens need to come way 
down because the stage lights 

1096
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,080
just can't compete. 
And so it is, it's a little bit 

1097
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:51,320
of AII don't want to say battle 
because the technicians that are

1098
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,840
all starting to understand what 
the objective is, but it is a 

1099
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,920
coordination and it is a little 
bit of a of a waltz. 

1100
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,720
Yeah, or a battle. 
Yes. 

1101
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,960
Yeah, it was a bit of a battle. 
I think I called it a war, so I 

1102
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,240
was even less diplomatic. 
But yeah, I can see that being 

1103
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:13,880
problematic. 
And light to the stage too. 

1104
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,160
I mean, somebody that's standing
next to a screen is getting all 

1105
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,320
this weird color and and 
brightness on them that doesn't 

1106
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:25,400
necessarily look that good. 
Yeah, yeah, You know, I, I, if 

1107
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,120
you've ever listened to my 
podcast, I usually start out 

1108
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,920
with how do you start? 
And honestly, I don't even know 

1109
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,000
the answer to that even as long 
as I've known you and and you've

1110
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,640
been on the podcast, but you 
were part of a group of people. 

1111
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:42,760
But like, did you go to theater 
school or did you? 

1112
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:48,920
Yeah, yeah. 
I'm, I grew up just outside New 

1113
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,000
York City, the New Jersey part 
of New York. 

1114
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:59,680
And I, I got exposed to some 
Broadway shows when I was young.

1115
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:03,600
My dad took me to some shows and
I really kind of got into that 

1116
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,840
and theater and always kind of 
pursued that throughout school. 

1117
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,880
So I, I, I thought I was going 
to the theater. 

1118
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,520
There was no rock'n'roll on 
those days or what in television

1119
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:18,520
or film, which really I didn't 
see my way into. 

1120
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,160
And I love the idea of, you 
know, the connection between the

1121
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:25,240
show and the live audience. 
It was something that even as a 

1122
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:31,960
kid that intrigued me. 
So I did go to college for 

1123
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,240
theater where you study 
everything and do everything. 

1124
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,880
So you know, and and that's 
good. 

1125
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:43,160
You know, you you learn every 
your craft from both sides of 

1126
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,000
the stage. 
And when I got. 

1127
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:48,800
Out you studied acting as well 
I. 

1128
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,640
Studied acting, you know, I 
mean, I, I, I saw that as a 

1129
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:56,040
potential path. 
I've got to say where I grew up,

1130
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,920
I, there wasn't much exposure to
stuff like lighting and the tech

1131
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:04,840
side acting seemed to be acting 
or directing seemed to be what 

1132
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,840
you would do. 
And when I got college, I 

1133
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,480
suddenly realized that there 
were a lot of people that were 

1134
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,800
studying the technical side. 
And as it turned out, my college

1135
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:20,480
roommate was really into 
lighting and got me to take some

1136
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,800
classes. 
And I just gobbled it up and, 

1137
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:25,760
you know, really, you know, 
connected to it. 

1138
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:30,360
So when I got out of school, I 
actually did act for a couple of

1139
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:35,040
years, but I was also lighting 
simultaneously. 

1140
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:37,840
I just, you know, take whatever 
I could to pay the bills. 

1141
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:46,400
And at one point it just sort of
flipped because I'd been a, a 

1142
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:50,960
musician in, in high school, I 
played keyboards in a rock band 

1143
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,040
that I, you know, had with my 
friends and I had a little bit 

1144
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:58,080
of local success. 
So I always miss that. 

1145
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:01,800
And I just put it totally aside 
when I went went to college. 

1146
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:09,760
But one day shortly after I 
graduated, I saw an ad for in in

1147
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,160
one of the arts magazines in 
Chicago, because I went to 

1148
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:17,880
school in Chicago and they were 
looking for a lighting director 

1149
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:22,200
for National Recording Group. 
So I thought, OK, called the 

1150
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,680
number, had an interview, got 
the job because I was one of the

1151
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,000
few people that had any lighting
experience. 

1152
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,440
So we're all kinds of people 
applying for the job, but none 

1153
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,120
of them had any experience. 
We're talking about the early 

1154
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,160
70s where everybody just wanted 
to, you know, join the circus or

1155
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:36,920
join rock. 
Band. 

1156
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:39,400
It's just wild though, that 
they'd advertise for a lighting 

1157
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:43,200
guy in the local, you know, 
newspaper or whatever that's. 

1158
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,840
Hilarious. 
Yeah, no kidding. 

1159
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,840
That's hilarious. 
And you just happened to see it.

1160
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,680
I just happened to see it. 
Destiny. 

1161
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:58,640
I had seen a Grateful Dead show 
in Chicago about a week before 

1162
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,320
and it was one of the first 
shows that had real production. 

1163
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:07,120
And I think Candace Brightman 
was probably there, but I 

1164
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:10,600
certainly didn't know, know her.
I mean, I'm sure she was there. 

1165
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,920
We talked about it when it when 
I met her years later. 

1166
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:19,640
And it was all like Lycos and 
Pars and beams and and haze and,

1167
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:23,680
you know, kind kinds of things 
that production turned into. 

1168
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,760
But it was one of the few shows 
that really was carrying that 

1169
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,200
that level of production. 
And it was everything that I had

1170
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,280
learned in theater school you 
weren't supposed to do. 

1171
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,520
The lighting was supposed to be 
invisible. 

1172
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:39,360
You maybe you were creating a, a
Thunder and lightning effect. 

1173
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,760
But aside from that, you were 
supposed to be realistic, you 

1174
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:47,360
know, unless you were doing some
sort of, you know, abstract show

1175
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:50,720
that required, you know. 
Some stuff was on display and 

1176
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,080
part of the show, basically. 
Yeah, right. 

1177
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,160
That's interesting. 
I never heard it, never heard it

1178
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:56,760
described like that, but it's so
true. 

1179
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:00,280
And, you know, all this lighting
that was really tangible, you 

1180
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:04,800
could reach out and touch it. 
And I thought, wow, that breaks 

1181
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,240
every rule I've ever been 
taught. 

1182
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,360
But I like it. 
So here I was just maybe seven 

1183
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:14,600
days later and I saw this ad and
I thought, OK, you know, let's 

1184
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:18,200
let's give it a try. 
And you know, like 2 weeks later

1185
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:21,600
I was in a nightclub lighting 
lighting a band and taking it 

1186
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:24,479
and going around playing 
colleges and opening for bigger 

1187
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:28,720
bands where I kind of saw what 
the early level of production 

1188
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:35,319
was, you know, trees and you 
know, no trusses yet pre Truss. 

1189
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,840
Wow. 
Yeah, I mean even that great for

1190
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,760
bed show that I saw they had 
scaffolds but they didn't have 

1191
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,240
Truss. 
Wow, that's amazing. 

1192
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:48,040
And. 
That band wasn't Styx, was it? 

1193
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:51,720
That wasn't Styx, but they were.
But they were in Chicago, too. 

1194
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:55,560
So I was working for this band 
and we opened for Styx and I got

1195
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:57,520
to know them. 
And so that was sort of my 

1196
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,279
graduate band. 
Yeah. 

1197
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:05,160
So yeah, I mean, what? 
They needed someone, and I was 

1198
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:12,359
one of the few local LDS in 
Chicago that understood the the 

1199
01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:14,880
vibe and the art form of 
rock'n'roll. 

1200
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:18,080
At that point. 
I'd had a year or two in into it

1201
01:09:18,279 --> 01:09:21,600
and so I got the you're a. 
Crusty old veteran now. 

1202
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:24,479
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, exactly those terms. 

1203
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,120
That's wild. 
So that's how it all began and 

1204
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,160
it was really one thing led to 
another. 

1205
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:35,520
But Styx was really good for me 
because they they really sky 

1206
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,279
rocketed to fame. 
I mean, it was a time in history

1207
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:42,399
where, you know, they were, you 
know, considered, you know, that

1208
01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:46,120
prog rock, A lot of people 
thought they were British just 

1209
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:51,080
because of the style of of music
and, you know, the sound of the 

1210
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:53,920
lead singer's voice. 
But they weren't, they were just

1211
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,200
from Chicago. 
But we did some really 

1212
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,480
theatrical things. 
And when they said, well, we're 

1213
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:03,640
we're doing a new tour and we're
about to release a new album, 

1214
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:05,720
what do you what do you want to 
do? 

1215
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:11,160
I would always throw backdrops 
in and scrims and all these 

1216
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,680
theatrical techniques that I 
knew were fun and they were 

1217
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:15,440
willing to spend a little bit of
money. 

1218
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,840
And then we would. 
I mean, I, I don't want to say I

1219
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,240
choreographed the show, but 
there were times that I would 

1220
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,680
say if you guys on this 
particular guitar moment where 

1221
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,640
everything stops and it's just 
you 2 guys playing the guitar 

1222
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:31,800
riff, if you guys would stand 
like back-to-back over here, I 

1223
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,920
could have this light on you and
then. 

1224
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,560
Very dramatic effect all. 
That kind of thing, you know, 

1225
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:42,680
when it was really simple to do.
And so little by little, we kind

1226
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:46,200
of had this, you know, 
theatrical repertoire growing. 

1227
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:51,520
So was was the first band that 
you went out with the the club 

1228
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:53,680
band? 
Was that your first paid gig or?

1229
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,440
And. 
Then don't tell me Styx was your

1230
01:10:57,440 --> 01:11:02,240
second. 
Well, I had worked around around

1231
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:06,160
Chicago for some other small, 
small bands and then I had gone 

1232
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:09,880
out on the road with the with 
the Corons. 

1233
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:11,840
Oh. 
Really Beijing. 

1234
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:16,360
They they invited me to go out 
on a Kiss tour and it was Kisses

1235
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:21,840
first big arena tour. 
It was right after the Kiss 

1236
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:23,800
Alive album came out and I want 
to rock. 

1237
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,320
Was that cheap trick opening? 
Everybody opened for them, you 

1238
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,320
know, so. 
I'm just trying to 'cause I 

1239
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:36,000
remember I saw KISS when I was. 
I had to be 12 years old or 

1240
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:37,640
something the first time I saw 
KISS. 

1241
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,800
What are you? 
Doing and it was in the Calgary 

1242
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:45,280
Corral, the the old hockey arena
in Calgary. 

1243
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:49,240
And it was just, it was for me, 
it was life changing. 

1244
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:53,440
Like it just changed everything 
I believed about music and shows

1245
01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:56,440
and all that kind of stuff. 
I was in in bands at the time. 

1246
01:11:56,440 --> 01:11:59,560
But yeah, that was it was 
everything. 

1247
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:03,680
Yeah, it was everything. 
It was just, yeah, fun. 

1248
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:07,440
Just spitting blood and lighting
things on fire and stuff. 

1249
01:12:07,480 --> 01:12:11,120
I was, I was hooked, you know, 
that I was so into KISS at that 

1250
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,160
point. 
It was like, wow, this is so 

1251
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:15,520
amazing. 
I didn't know what to expect. 

1252
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,960
I was not aware of them at all. 
I went out really on the 1st 

1253
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:23,240
show and I remember being in the
back of the house and we were 

1254
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:27,480
playing some theater in Buffalo 
or someplace and they were 

1255
01:12:27,480 --> 01:12:31,000
testing out the flamethrowers. 
You know that big flame pots 

1256
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:33,240
which happened to be. 
They bought them from the 

1257
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:37,600
original Wizard of Oz production
where if you remember when the 

1258
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,200
Wizard is first seen, there are 
these flames that are shooting 

1259
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:42,320
up around him. 
They bought those devices from. 

1260
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:44,000
That. 
And that's. 

1261
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,360
An interesting story. 
Cuz it wasn't something that was

1262
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,040
like around that you could just 
buy. 

1263
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:50,200
Yeah, there was no. 
City. 

1264
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:54,840
Nobody was using anything yet 
back then in live shows. 

1265
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:58,920
It was obviously they were one 
of the first big real show bands

1266
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:03,520
like that, if not the first. 
I don't know, I guess the Dolls.

1267
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:05,360
Or so I think so. 
Yeah. 

1268
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:07,760
But I felt this heat on the back
of my neck. 

1269
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:09,760
I was setting up a console out 
front. 

1270
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,760
And I turn around and I see 
these flames and I'm went, OK, 

1271
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:17,880
this is gonna be different. 
Yeah, I bet you see these. 7 

1272
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:22,400
foot tall guys and high heels 
and right crazy outfits and 

1273
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,760
you're like, what, what were you
telling your parents about all 

1274
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:27,280
this stuff? 
Because I mean, you're, you're a

1275
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:30,560
fairly young Jewish kid, you 
know, from New Jersey. 

1276
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:32,880
You know your parents had to be 
going, Jeff. 

1277
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:36,320
Now what are you doing? 
No, I got to say they found it 

1278
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:39,160
kind of interesting. 
I mean, really knew I was off 

1279
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,880
the off the deep end when I went
to theater school. 

1280
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:44,520
Yeah, and. 
I know. 

1281
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,480
Thank goodness. 
They were really supportive. 

1282
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:50,920
That's awesome. 
Found it interesting. 

1283
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:52,920
Crazy fun. 
Yeah. 

1284
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:53,880
That's cool. 
Yeah. 

1285
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:55,800
I wasn't getting myself into 
trouble. 

1286
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:56,640
So. 
Yeah. 

1287
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,120
Did they were they able to get 
out to any like Springsteen 

1288
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,840
shows or anything along the way 
or they go or of them did they 

1289
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:05,280
Good. 
That's amazing. 

1290
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:06,120
Yeah. 
That's amazing. 

1291
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:08,920
That's so much fun when you're 
able to share your work with 

1292
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:11,120
your parents like that. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1293
01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:14,520
So I've got to say, they were. 
They were happy for me and so 

1294
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:16,400
cool. 
Although if they would have seen

1295
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,640
Kiss, they might have been like 
Jeff. 

1296
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,840
Yeah, they never did see KISS. 
Yeah, we should have a talk 

1297
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,200
here, Jeff. 
Yeah, that's wild. 

1298
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:27,920
And so that was your first time 
that you actually went on tour 

1299
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,840
was was with the Crones and, 
and, and the Crones being 

1300
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:34,520
upstaging, of course or 
eventually, I don't know if they

1301
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,040
were upstaging yet. 
But they were, they were OK. 

1302
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:42,520
I met, I met Robert Crone at a 
show that my original club act 

1303
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:46,880
was was performing at. 
And so he was standing back 

1304
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,760
there because upstaging it 
provided the gear and we just 

1305
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,360
got to talking and kind of 
exchange numbers. 

1306
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:57,960
And the next thing I know he had
actually called me to do a 

1307
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:01,440
couple of small shows with him. 
It was literally me and Robert 

1308
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:06,600
Carone in a in a U-Haul or a 
Ryder truck taking a bunch of 

1309
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:10,720
car cans out of his garage or 
renting them from one of the 

1310
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:15,320
local vendors in town to get 
what he didn't have, and the two

1311
01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:18,840
of us driving somewhere like 
Wisconsin and doing a show for a

1312
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:20,760
day. 
So I had done that for a while. 

1313
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:25,000
Yeah. 
That is wild. 

1314
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:29,160
And and did you go? 
To their party this year at UPS,

1315
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:31,320
at LDI. 
Yeah, I did. 

1316
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:32,960
I saw you there. 
I can't remember. 

1317
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,720
I think I had about 12 glasses 
of wine by then. 

1318
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:39,160
Yeah, right. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1319
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:41,920
There was some good wine. 
Yeah, the wine is always good at

1320
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:43,480
that party. 
It's it's crazy. 

1321
01:15:43,480 --> 01:15:47,480
But I had a really nice. 
So it was kind of a funny moment

1322
01:15:47,480 --> 01:15:51,720
because I saw Seth kind of 
Houdini out the door and I was 

1323
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,840
super tired because I I can't 
change time anymore. 

1324
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:59,120
So I've been getting up at 3:00 
in the morning in, in Las Vegas 

1325
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,080
or four in the morning every 
morning, right? 

1326
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:03,400
Yeah. 
And so I was dead tired and it's

1327
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:05,920
like, I don't know, 9:00 or 
something. 

1328
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:10,680
And I, Sarah was with me and I 
said, let's Houdini, let's, 

1329
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,400
let's pull out. 
I'm just going to wait for the 

1330
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,920
right moment. 
And I see Seth duck out the 

1331
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:18,320
door. 
And so I go, oh, Seth, Seth, you

1332
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:19,720
know, like I wanted to talk to 
him. 

1333
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:22,760
And now I'm out the door, you 
know, into the restaurant part. 

1334
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,720
And I'm like, ha. 
And he goes, whoa, something up.

1335
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:28,360
And I go, no, no, no, I was just
using you because you just left.

1336
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:32,280
So I'm using you. 
So then I'm on my way physically

1337
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,600
like to go up the stairs to get 
out of there and I run into 

1338
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:38,080
Robert. 
He's been coming back from the 

1339
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,760
bathroom or wherever he was, but
and I ended up in probably, I 

1340
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,280
don't know, a 30-40 minute talk 
with Robert. 

1341
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:48,400
We just had this very cool, very
long, nice talk. 

1342
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:50,760
I, I love that guy. 
Yeah, they're, they're such nice

1343
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:52,280
people. 
They really. 

1344
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:54,160
Truly and deserve all their 
success. 

1345
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,160
Oh heck yeah, yeah. 
And they do have a lot of 

1346
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:58,800
success. 
Yes, yes. 

1347
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:03,960
They got some success, so. 
So that's why I thank for 

1348
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:05,640
getting me getting me in the 
door. 

1349
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:10,560
So they called me for for Kiss, 
met a bunch of bands and, and, 

1350
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:15,240
and all of their tour managers 
and so forth doing that. 

1351
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:19,680
And Styx actually opened for for
Kiss several times. 

1352
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,600
And I remember one night, weird 
fit. 

1353
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:25,840
It was actually pretty good. 
Really. 

1354
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:30,600
I mean God playing bands but. 
It was early earlier in Styx's 

1355
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,640
career also. 
It was pre Tommy Shaw. 

1356
01:17:34,480 --> 01:17:36,440
Yeah. 
Do you know anything about them?

1357
01:17:36,440 --> 01:17:42,480
You know, Tom, Tommy had joined 
them in like 76 and and gave, 

1358
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,600
you know, an interesting shot in
the arm, a really good, you 

1359
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:52,240
know, to the band. 
So Stick got Styx got the band. 

1360
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:55,840
The crowd really, really revved 
up. 

1361
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:59,440
So they were a good opening act 
for yeah, yes, people were that.

1362
01:17:59,440 --> 01:18:03,720
Was like, that was like Lorelei 
and light up and all that stuff,

1363
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:04,600
Yeah. 
Exactly. 

1364
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,040
I I got so into sticks when I 
heard that. 

1365
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:11,360
Like I heard Lorelei and Light 
Up and I don't remember if there

1366
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:14,880
were other songs on that album, 
but I was just like, wow. 

1367
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,440
And it is incredible. 
Yeah, they were huge. 

1368
01:18:18,440 --> 01:18:20,800
And I just, I flipped out when I
heard that. 

1369
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,000
I was like, this is the coolest 
band I've ever heard. 

1370
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:28,320
And so, yeah, that's cool. 
And, you know, Tommy Shaw is one

1371
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:31,920
of those guys that have such a 
high degree of appreciation for 

1372
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:36,080
because he is still doing it and
not mailing it in. 

1373
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:40,040
Like, he's like Steven Tyler, 
but Steven Tyler can't quite 

1374
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:43,480
hold it together completely, you
know, But sounds good. 

1375
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:48,040
Looks like a rock star, does the
songs as well as he ever did. 

1376
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:50,000
He's amazing. 
That guy. 

1377
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:52,520
He just totally agree. 
Doesn't seem to age. 

1378
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:56,440
You know, he's amazing. 
And and, you know, the rapport 

1379
01:18:56,440 --> 01:18:59,360
with the audience I think is 
better than ever, you know, 

1380
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,800
yeah, so good how they've 
managed to just get better over 

1381
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:05,800
the years. 
Yeah, I mean, even when I see 

1382
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:09,880
people uploading iPhone videos 
or whatever and I'll watch them 

1383
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:16,440
do whatever it is and I'm just 
like, man, he's still so good. 

1384
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:20,600
Like he sounds incredible at 
whatever age he is now. 

1385
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:25,200
And you know, God bless him. 
And, and Lawrence Gowen's a 

1386
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:30,640
funny one because I knew Gowen 
personally in Canada when he was

1387
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:36,680
Gowen and, and you know, he, he 
got a little big in Canada, but 

1388
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,240
nowhere near as big as as Styx, 
obviously. 

1389
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:42,320
So that's been an incredible 
ride for him as well. 

1390
01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:44,400
Absolutely, and he's been good 
for them. 

1391
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,520
Oh, amazing. 
Like he was such a good fit for 

1392
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:49,920
what they needed. 
You know, they needed a showman.

1393
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:54,200
They needed a good singer who 
could do those parts that Dennis

1394
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:56,760
did, and they needed a great 
keyboard player. 

1395
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,120
And he just really fit the bill.
He's very, very. 

1396
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:02,560
Flamboyant. 
Not flamboyant might be the 

1397
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:04,640
wrong word, but he is kind of 
flamboyant. 

1398
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:06,600
He's a showman, you know? 
And a good way. 

1399
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:07,920
Absolutely. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1400
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:12,000
Yeah, physically great on stage.
Yeah, no, he's fantastic. 

1401
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:15,920
They God bless him and the the 
longevity that that band has 

1402
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:19,640
pulled out and they just keep 
packaging them with Journey or 

1403
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:23,680
with REO Speedwagon or with all 
of those bands from the same 

1404
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:25,120
basic era. 
Yeah. 

1405
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:28,360
And it just keeps going. 
The train keeps on a roll. 

1406
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:30,560
And they were just here in South
Florida recently. 

1407
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:35,320
I got invited and I didn't go, 
but yeah, Yeah. 

1408
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:36,080
That's cool. 
So. 

1409
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:40,080
So what did that lead? 
So by this point, do you know 

1410
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:43,480
that this is the career I want? 
I want to be a touring lighting 

1411
01:20:43,480 --> 01:20:46,880
guy or or. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1412
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:49,280
At that point, there was no 
question in my mind. 

1413
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,120
I still have. 
You ever on a crew, like did you

1414
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:54,720
ever have to be a tech, a 
lighting tech or anything, or 

1415
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,760
did you just go straight to 
lighting director, lighting 

1416
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,760
designer? 
No, actually when I when I did 

1417
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:06,560
kiss, I was on the crew and so 
and that was good. 

1418
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:09,680
That was really good for me 
because that was a bigger show 

1419
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:13,200
than I had ever been involved 
with on on sticks. 

1420
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:15,520
They hadn't done anything quite 
like that. 

1421
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:21,160
So I got to see how all of that 
worked and, and just live that 

1422
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:25,800
life and work that schedule and 
I got to run the opening act. 

1423
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:29,080
So that was always fun. 
So I got, you know, a little bit

1424
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:34,680
of LD chops doing that so. 
That's amazing experience. 

1425
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:38,160
Yeah, that took off a lot of the
the pressure of having to learn 

1426
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:40,880
that stuff on the fly later on, 
obviously. 

1427
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:44,160
Yeah, it's huge value. 
Yeah, I mean, I had to learn the

1428
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:50,280
terminology and you know, just 
the literally the the route from

1429
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:52,560
the dimmers to the light to the 
console. 

1430
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:56,760
And figure all that out. 
So, but I did that for six 

1431
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:03,000
months and then I, I left and I 
went back to Styx and I had 

1432
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:06,600
left, I had left Styx, you know,
for, you know, little, little 

1433
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:12,240
sabbatical and no, excuse me, 
I'm, I'm not to get too bogged 

1434
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:15,080
down in the, in the details. 
It was that that club band, I 

1435
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:18,920
left the club band, went to 
kids, went back to the club band

1436
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:23,600
and within a month I got the, 
the offer from Styx and so on 

1437
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:25,560
again. 
So I had a couple of, you know, 

1438
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:29,400
quick turnarounds and the. 
Styx thing lasted like you said,

1439
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:31,840
50 years, 15 years. 
Incredible. 

1440
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:34,040
That's. 
Wild wild. 

1441
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:36,560
You made some good choices on 
artists. 

1442
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,400
You know, I, I guess I was in 
the right place at the right 

1443
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:45,320
time and, and yeah, fortunately 
I, I said yes. 

1444
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:50,760
Now, when I, when I was offered 
Bruce, I said no initially. 

1445
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:54,960
Really, a lot of people don't 
know that, but I was I, I was 

1446
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:59,480
with yes at the time, and I was 
you. 

1447
01:22:59,480 --> 01:23:02,000
Can't say no to yes. 
That exactly that's. 

1448
01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:05,280
Sure. 
That's probably the dumbest joke

1449
01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:12,280
I've ever said. 
No but but good good so and I 

1450
01:23:12,280 --> 01:23:14,320
didn't. 
I couldn't see my way to 

1451
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:18,960
extricating myself from from the
yes tour initially but thought 

1452
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:22,040
about it for a couple of days 
and turned around and re 

1453
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:25,760
accepted the the offer so. 
Which yes, tour was that? 

1454
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:29,720
It was at nine O 2. 
One O 2, one O yeah. 

1455
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:32,040
Smeeton ended up doing it, 
didn't he? 

1456
01:23:32,440 --> 01:23:34,920
Well, after I after. 
After you left. 

1457
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:37,720
Actually, he came in as a 
programmer, believe it or not. 

1458
01:23:39,440 --> 01:23:42,080
Yeah. 
So I was, I was out there with 

1459
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:45,720
them for about 6 months and I 
got the Springsteen offer. 

1460
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:50,320
So I turned it over to a friend 
of mine named Merle McClain, who

1461
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:54,200
if you know, but he was, he was 
a good friend of mine who I 

1462
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:59,360
thought musically and and 
lighting designer wise, he was 

1463
01:23:59,480 --> 01:24:01,960
permed for it. 
And then I had just seen 

1464
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:07,560
Jonathan's Thompson Twins show. 
Jonathan was just really kind of

1465
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,280
newly out-of-the-box as this, 
you know, lighting as this 

1466
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:15,840
Varilite programmer slash 
designer. 

1467
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:19,320
And that Thompson Twins tour was
really groundbreaking, as small 

1468
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:21,560
as it was. 
And he programmed the whole 

1469
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:25,400
thing and and designed it. 
And so I went to see the show 

1470
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:30,640
and I said please, you know, 
come and program varilites for 

1471
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:34,600
us, which he did. 
And between me, Merle and 

1472
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,960
Jonathan, I thought we did, you 
know, we created a pretty good 

1473
01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:40,280
show and I got the Gabby there. 
I went to Bruce. 

1474
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:42,640
Yeah, I saw that show. 
It was good. 

1475
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:48,040
Yeah. 
So so you said no because you 

1476
01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:52,880
were with Yes, but you you did 
want to like by that time Bruce 

1477
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:54,600
was had already taken off, 
right. 

1478
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:57,480
Well, it was pre born in the 
USA. 

1479
01:24:57,960 --> 01:25:02,080
Oh, it was just after the river 
tour and he hadn't done anything

1480
01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:05,360
in a in a in a a few years 
because he was recording the 

1481
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:07,080
album and doing some other 
things. 

1482
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:14,040
So I, I didn't feel inclined 
initially to, to leave the Yes 

1483
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:15,560
tour. 
But, you know, I thought about 

1484
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:19,080
it and, you know, discussed it 
with some friends and thought, 

1485
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:22,040
well, that's an insane decision 
on my part. 

1486
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:26,920
So I quickly backtracked and, 
and, and accepted the offer. 

1487
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:33,040
And on that show, born in the 
USA, of course, turned out to 

1488
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:35,960
be, you know, Britain's most 
successful album. 

1489
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:41,240
He went from from star to, you 
know, mega superstar on that 

1490
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:45,000
tour, right and we so we were 
all there. 

1491
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:51,320
It was a two year tour hitting 
the entire world and just had a 

1492
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,680
ball doing it and it. 
Still hasn't ended that tour 

1493
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,600
still hasn't ended. 
He's still touring. 

1494
01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:00,520
Price of tickets has gone from 
like $5.00 to 5000. 

1495
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:05,000
But you know, aside from that, 
you know, it's, it's all pretty 

1496
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:08,200
much the same. 
Crazy that all on on the Bourne 

1497
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:12,320
in the USA tour, that was just 
when the Jacksons Victory Tour 

1498
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:17,760
was out as well and we all were 
invited to the Victory Tour but 

1499
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:19,440
they said but you have to buy 
your ticket. 

1500
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:24,080
So it was a $75 ticket. 
This is 1984. 

1501
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:29,280
Bruce was the best seat in the 
house for Bruce was 1875. 

1502
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:33,680
That's what I'm thinking. 
Yeah, that's wild. 75 bucks for 

1503
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:35,080
the Victory Tour. 
Yeah. 

1504
01:26:35,160 --> 01:26:36,560
And you had to pay. 
Did you pay? 

1505
01:26:37,440 --> 01:26:40,560
You know, we were supposed to 
pay and somehow I never did. 

1506
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,920
I think that you know, the tour 
manager must have bought. 

1507
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:46,080
Somebody, somebody's going to be
come and look and going. 

1508
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:49,600
Hey, $75. 
Yeah, plus interest, plus the 

1509
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:55,320
Houston $5000. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1510
01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:59,680
Oh my God. 
You know, Bruce, OK, so the 

1511
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:02,840
artists, I guess are somewhat 
responsible for ticket prices, 

1512
01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:07,280
but the the whole dynamic 
pricing thing gets a lot of 

1513
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:11,600
artists in trouble. 
And you know, again, I think 

1514
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:15,280
it's one of those situations 
where things are done maybe for 

1515
01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:17,920
the right reason and then it 
spins out of control and it 

1516
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,360
becomes all wrong and all bad 
and everything else. 

1517
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:25,880
But you got to do something. 
Because what's happening is if 

1518
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:31,000
Bruce is selling tickets for 300
bucks, call it, none of them end

1519
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:33,240
up in the hands of fans at that 
price. 

1520
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:37,240
They're, they're all bought up 
by, by resellers and then 

1521
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:42,360
they're sold again on the, on 
the secondary markets and they 

1522
01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:45,840
become $5000 anyways. 
And now Bruce isn't making any 

1523
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:47,840
of the money. 
The promoter is not making any 

1524
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:49,800
of the money. 
Certainly Jeff Rabbits isn't 

1525
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,760
making any of that money. 
And you know what I mean? 

1526
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:56,760
So like, why shouldn't the 
artist at least get a piece of 

1527
01:27:57,440 --> 01:27:59,840
the fans that are willing to pay
$5000? 

1528
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:01,280
Why shouldn't you get a piece of
that? 

1529
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:03,520
So I see some common sense to 
it. 

1530
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:06,880
I see some logic to it. 
And, and guess what people could

1531
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:09,480
say, but he's greedy. 
Well, you know, people don't do 

1532
01:28:09,480 --> 01:28:12,400
things because they don't want 
to make any money usually. 

1533
01:28:12,480 --> 01:28:15,520
Like generally there's going to 
be a commercial side of 

1534
01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:18,280
everything we do, right? 
We all want to be able to 

1535
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:22,400
survive and God forbid, be able 
to afford, you know, a vacation 

1536
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:25,320
or a a meal every once in a 
while, you know, like. 

1537
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:29,320
Yes, absolutely. 
Well, and and I'm not defending 

1538
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:32,600
the whole dynamic pricing thing,
but I, Bruce did put out a 

1539
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:35,120
statement saying anybody that 
doesn't feel like they got their

1540
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:38,360
money, money's worth may go to 
the box office and get a full 

1541
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:41,360
refund for whatever you paid. 
And I guess to date, there's 

1542
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:42,880
been none of the. 
Refunds. 

1543
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:45,680
Yeah, well, because probably 
half those $5000 tickets are 

1544
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:49,960
reselling for 10, you know, 
because there's so much friggin 

1545
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:53,240
available cash out there right 
now that people, if they want to

1546
01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:57,160
go see Bruce and they want good 
seats, what's the price that 

1547
01:28:57,160 --> 01:28:59,000
they won't pay? 
You know what I mean? 

1548
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:03,800
That's like I just, I just saw, 
what's his name, Hendricks the 

1549
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:07,000
OR Hendrick the guy? 
Rick Hendrick, he owns a bunch 

1550
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,560
of car dealerships. 
I just saw on one of these 

1551
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:12,400
auctions, I think it was a 
Meekum auctions, he paid like 

1552
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:21,120
$3.5 million for the 1st 2025 
Corvette CR1 that's coming off 

1553
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:23,240
the line like it's serial number
OO1. 

1554
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:28,280
He paid $3.5 million for it. 
I mean this is a Corvette that 

1555
01:29:28,440 --> 01:29:31,920
will sell for about 175,000 in 
the dealership. 

1556
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:36,240
But you want serial number OO1 
Guess what you know? 

1557
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,360
And when I start going up over 2
million, I was like, you gotta 

1558
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:41,000
be shitting me. 
It's a it's. 

1559
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,160
Worth whatever anybody will pay 
for it. 

1560
01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:45,080
Correct. 
And, and the problem with 

1561
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:48,480
tickets is that when you're 
talking about Bruce Springsteen 

1562
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:53,960
or Taylor Swift, name the price 
because you're going to find 

1563
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:57,720
people and there's and so you 
have to adjust to the market you

1564
01:29:57,720 --> 01:29:58,480
have. 
To yes. 

1565
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:01,080
You know I. 
Just from the consumers point of

1566
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:05,080
view, when you look at the 
website and there's a ticket for

1567
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:10,320
$800.00 and then you look 5 
minutes later and it's $2000, 

1568
01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:12,000
then you really feel kind of 
ripped off. 

1569
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:16,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
You know, I completely get it. 

1570
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,320
I get it from both sides though.
Because again, the problem is 

1571
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:24,120
that rich guy who wants to go 
see Bruce Springsteen is going 

1572
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:26,520
to pay 5 grand. 
He'll pay it from some seedy 

1573
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:29,640
scalper somewhere. 
The tickets, you know, pass 

1574
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:31,640
through several sets of hands or
whatever. 

1575
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:35,680
Why shouldn't that be a 
controlled situation where, you 

1576
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:39,160
know, the money is going back to
the artist and to the promoter, 

1577
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:43,040
the people who actually paid the
money and put in the effort to 

1578
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:46,360
put this show on and everything 
else versus the scalper? 

1579
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:48,920
So I don't know. 
It's it's a problem that's as 

1580
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:52,480
old as as concerts. 
You know, the scalper situation.

1581
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:55,080
But I get it. 
And actually, the way you the 

1582
01:30:55,080 --> 01:31:00,920
way you phrase it makes sense. 
Yeah, well, that's something no 

1583
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:04,240
one's ever said to me once. 
You know, Marcel, you just said 

1584
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:05,600
something that really makes 
sense. 

1585
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:08,440
Let this date and history show. 
Exactly. 

1586
01:31:08,440 --> 01:31:10,360
Well, it's recorded. 
This is a good thing. 

1587
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:14,000
So now, now it's there in 
Forever, you know, I'm in 

1588
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:15,720
Forever's Ville having made 
sense. 

1589
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:23,160
So Styx, Bruce Springsteen. 
And so that just lasted a few 

1590
01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:26,000
years, like where you were just 
touring and being real happy and

1591
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:30,800
everything, and then you 
discover this MTV thing and. 

1592
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:34,880
Well, so that that's when I 
thought there there really is a 

1593
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:40,040
way to make a lateral at least a
lateral move, if not an upward 

1594
01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:45,080
move in into this field. 
And I was always interested in 

1595
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:48,320
that field, never thought that I
would be able to find my way 

1596
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:50,440
into it, didn't really 
understand it. 

1597
01:31:50,440 --> 01:31:54,520
And once I started to get a feel
for what it took, and there 

1598
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:58,320
would be years off sometimes 
between Springsteen tours and I 

1599
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:03,000
would either fill it in with 
some other tours or I would 

1600
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:07,040
start to find, you know, through
Jim Moody and some other 

1601
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:09,320
friends, start to find some 
television work. 

1602
01:32:09,480 --> 01:32:14,800
I, you know, gaffed a show for 
Jim once so that I could see 

1603
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:18,720
what was going on. 
And then he slowly began using 

1604
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:22,120
me to substitute for him on 
shows where he was double booked

1605
01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:26,000
and he couldn't be there. 
He would kind of help me through

1606
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:30,760
the design process until I kind 
of had a firm grasp on my own. 

1607
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:36,040
So I was doing studio shows as 
well as as rock shows, really 

1608
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:40,000
starting to understand how the 
camera works and that's kind of 

1609
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:42,840
what it's all about. 
So at that point I saw, OK, this

1610
01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:48,880
is something that I can do 
almost as a parallel career to 

1611
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:52,240
working with Bruce and working 
with a a few of the other rock 

1612
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:55,120
bands that I was doing it. 
Seems to have worked out OK. 

1613
01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:58,960
Yeah, yeah. 
Well, and I, I love that idea of

1614
01:32:58,960 --> 01:33:04,240
the live show being turned into,
into something that could be 

1615
01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:06,960
consumed by, you know, TV 
viewers. 

1616
01:33:07,160 --> 01:33:10,040
So and then at one point it just
sort of like turned around. 

1617
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:13,360
I still have a couple of rock 
things, but I would say 90% of 

1618
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:16,800
my year is doing television 
style things. 

1619
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:20,440
Yeah. 
And, and sports was just sort of

1620
01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:26,360
a natural extension of that. 
I'm sorry, what sports are we 

1621
01:33:26,360 --> 01:33:29,720
talking? 
About Super Bowl, just the 

1622
01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:33,280
sporting events that you've been
involved in, in lighting for 

1623
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:35,640
television as well. 
Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

1624
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:40,760
Sorry, I haven't actually lit a 
sports event, but I have, 

1625
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:43,040
although I did did one that I'll
mention. 

1626
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:48,360
But yes, that was just the first
Super Bowl that I was involved 

1627
01:33:48,360 --> 01:33:53,480
with was produced by the Disney 
people that I knew from several 

1628
01:33:53,480 --> 01:33:55,240
shows that I had done at Disney 
World. 

1629
01:33:55,600 --> 01:33:59,800
And and so I went up against, 
you know, several other 

1630
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:02,840
designers in a bid process and 
was was selected. 

1631
01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:08,320
So that was an exciting thing to
be a part of because it was so 

1632
01:34:08,320 --> 01:34:15,160
enormous and outdoors dealing 
with, you know, a kind of a 

1633
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:20,040
transition from day daylight to 
night time in a, you know, in an

1634
01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:24,040
enormous stadium where you had 
to set up in a 12 minute 

1635
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:28,880
commercial. 
Yeah, and I and I seem to recall

1636
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,280
that was Miami. 
That was Miami. 

1637
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:34,760
That was Joe Robbie Stadium. 
I I was there because that was 

1638
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:38,040
the first time that we put those
robo scans onto something and it

1639
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:39,640
was a nightmare. 
That's right. 

1640
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:43,400
That's right. 
Well, it was certainly a a big 

1641
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:46,360
show. 
I think I was probably in a 

1642
01:34:46,360 --> 01:34:50,480
little over my head as well, but
we had a couple of technical 

1643
01:34:50,480 --> 01:34:53,800
snafus that. 
And that we did. 

1644
01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:59,480
And it it, it was a big enough 
show that we that we really 

1645
01:34:59,480 --> 01:35:03,040
couldn't afford to lose many of 
the lights that we had. 

1646
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:09,040
My recollection is that by 
Showtime, everything was back 

1647
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:11,680
where it needed. 
It was, it wasn't easy. 

1648
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:17,360
I had a lot of guys that didn't 
sleep for a few days and we had 

1649
01:35:17,360 --> 01:35:19,120
to bring some guys in from 
Denmark. 

1650
01:35:19,120 --> 01:35:21,240
We, I don't know if you 
remember, but we brought in 

1651
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:24,320
Finn, who was the head engineer 
for Martin in Denmark. 

1652
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:27,640
I remember. 
And yeah, I mean, it was, it was

1653
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:30,320
just, that was one of the 
hardest weeks, I think of my 

1654
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:34,000
life because it went from, you 
know, excited as hell. 

1655
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:35,760
Oh, my God. 
We got lights that are going to 

1656
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:39,200
be on the halftime show for the 
Super Bowl to, you know, could 

1657
01:35:39,200 --> 01:35:43,520
this week just be over already? 
Please, please just survive and 

1658
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:46,400
get through it. 
But you know, anything like 

1659
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:48,080
that. 
And there had not been that many

1660
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:51,960
Super Bowls that had turned off 
the lights. 

1661
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:55,680
Most of the Super Bowls prior to
that just had supplemental fill 

1662
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:58,400
lighting and it was marching 
bands and so forth. 

1663
01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:04,280
And so I don't know whether that
many companies had all the 

1664
01:36:04,320 --> 01:36:06,080
infrastructure. 
Right. 

1665
01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:07,040
No. 
And they? 

1666
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:09,760
Handle that. 
And it was the 12 minute thing, 

1667
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:11,880
yeah. 
Well, now it's so much easier 

1668
01:36:11,880 --> 01:36:16,760
because you have IP rated lights
and we've all done it 1000 Times

1669
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:18,720
Now. 
And you know, like I remember 

1670
01:36:18,720 --> 01:36:23,120
one of the things was you guys 
were programming and we had 

1671
01:36:23,120 --> 01:36:25,840
lights all over the field and 
all of a sudden the sprinklers 

1672
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:27,760
came on. 
Yes, that's. 

1673
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:29,800
Right. 
These were not IP headlights. 

1674
01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:35,600
And I think one of one of our 
texts, like mistakenly yelled at

1675
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:40,040
one of the the NFL, you know, 
runs for guys. 

1676
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:44,480
And that was like a no, no, 
because those guys are God when 

1677
01:36:44,480 --> 01:36:47,560
it comes to the Super Bowl. 
It's like, you know, you don't 

1678
01:36:47,560 --> 01:36:50,320
mess with our field. 
You know, this is our field, and

1679
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:53,880
this is sacred. 
And so it was like, OK, better 

1680
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:56,960
put, you know, garbage bags over
the lights or whatever because 

1681
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:58,640
this is bad. 
Yeah. 

1682
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:01,560
Yeah, well, it was a learning 
experience for all of us. 

1683
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:04,400
Yeah. 
And, you know, I came away from 

1684
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:08,120
it with, you know, lots of notes
on how I would do it if I ever 

1685
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:11,400
had the opportunity again. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1686
01:37:11,440 --> 01:37:15,200
Well, and by the way, quite 
possibly the worst lip syncing I

1687
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:18,800
think I've ever heard was Patti 
LaBelle. 

1688
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:23,560
It was so bad. 
It was like not even believable.

1689
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:26,160
It was just like, what are you 
doing? 

1690
01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:28,240
Like she's singing different 
words and stuff. 

1691
01:37:28,480 --> 01:37:32,080
Well, I I guess it's been enough
years since then that I could 

1692
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:35,280
tell this story. 
But, you know, audio wise, Tony 

1693
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:37,560
Bennett and Patti LaBelle were 
on the show. 

1694
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:40,800
Tony Bennett insisted on singing
live. 

1695
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:43,800
Yeah. 
And Patti LaBelle insisted on 

1696
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:46,080
pre recording track that she 
would sync. 

1697
01:37:46,480 --> 01:37:48,800
Well, Patti LaBelle couldn't 
remember her words, so she 

1698
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:50,560
wasn't lip syncing to the. 
Track. 

1699
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:54,120
Even though the track continued,
Tony Bennett forgot the words to

1700
01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:55,880
his song. 
He was standing there with a 

1701
01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:57,880
live mic and nothing coming out 
at all. 

1702
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:02,920
Yeah, I know it was funny. 
We had so many things that 

1703
01:38:02,920 --> 01:38:04,960
didn't work. 
Yeah, on that. 

1704
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:08,400
You know, it was tough. 
It was tough, but there was one 

1705
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:12,040
cool moment. 
So I, I, I think for one of the 

1706
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:15,320
nights where you guys were 
programming or something, maybe 

1707
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:19,040
the night before the Super Bowl 
or two nights before, I was 

1708
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:22,200
there just checking on my guys 
and I was taking my 

1709
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:25,360
father-in-law and my ex-wife out
for dinner. 

1710
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:30,240
And so they were with me. 
I think my ex-wife might have 

1711
01:38:30,240 --> 01:38:32,760
stayed in the car, but my 
father-in-law wanted to come in 

1712
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:34,240
with me and just see what it 
looked like. 

1713
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:38,880
He's a big Super Bowl guy. 
And so he's like for sale. 

1714
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:40,440
Marcel, he's pulling on my 
shirt. 

1715
01:38:40,440 --> 01:38:42,800
And I think I'm talking to one 
of your guys or something and 

1716
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:44,600
he's pulling on my shirt. 
Marcel, Marcel, Marcel. 

1717
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:46,120
And I go, yes, Tom. 
What? 

1718
01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:49,840
And he goes, that's, that's Tony
Bennett over there. 

1719
01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:53,160
And he was sitting in a golf 
cart just by himself, nobody 

1720
01:38:53,160 --> 01:38:54,440
around him or anything. 
Right. 

1721
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:56,240
Yeah. 
And I go, we'll go say hello. 

1722
01:38:56,640 --> 01:38:58,360
He's like, no, no, no, I can't 
do that. 

1723
01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:01,560
And he's old school Chicago, my,
my father-in-law, right? 

1724
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:06,800
Old school, like he, he grew up 
seeing Tony Bennett in bars in 

1725
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:11,280
Chicago and stuff, right? 
And I can't, I'm like, he's 

1726
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:13,120
sitting there by himself. 
Go say hi. 

1727
01:39:13,480 --> 01:39:15,800
He ends up talking to him for 
like 30 minutes. 

1728
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:18,120
I swear. 
I could have, I could have 

1729
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,320
murdered his wife at or his 
daughter at that point and he 

1730
01:39:21,320 --> 01:39:22,960
wouldn't have cared. 
You know, he would have been 

1731
01:39:22,960 --> 01:39:25,520
like, oh, I'll look away, you 
know, because he was just in 

1732
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,320
heaven. 
He'd never met somebody like 

1733
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:29,880
that before. 
So it's just such a moment for 

1734
01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:31,120
him. 
Pretty cool. 

1735
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:33,240
About the only cool moment for 
me the whole week. 

1736
01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:35,280
Yeah, it was stressful for 
everybody. 

1737
01:39:35,280 --> 01:39:38,480
Yeah, it was a stressful week. 
Sorry to sorry to remind you of 

1738
01:39:38,480 --> 01:39:39,960
that one. 
No, no, not at all. 

1739
01:39:40,160 --> 01:39:44,280
It's all part of it. 
So of course we lost Mr. Moody, 

1740
01:39:44,320 --> 01:39:48,600
I think last year or 2023 maybe.
It it was in 2024. 

1741
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:50,720
Oh no. 
Excuse me, 2023. 

1742
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:53,400
Yeah, well, they all blur ever 
since COVID. 

1743
01:39:53,400 --> 01:39:57,280
It's like this one BLOB of time 
since COVID, truly. 

1744
01:39:57,520 --> 01:40:00,480
But yeah, it's obviously sad 
losing anybody right now and 

1745
01:40:00,480 --> 01:40:02,120
we're losing way too many 
people, but. 

1746
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:12,320
Jim Moody was a big one, So 
Moody Rabbits ended in 9796. 

1747
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:18,480
While it really just, you know, 
extended itself into Moody 

1748
01:40:18,480 --> 01:40:24,840
Rabbit Hollingsworth right. 
So we, we felt that adding the 

1749
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:28,880
architectural component to our 
practice was going to be 

1750
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:32,520
something that would round us 
out, get, you know, fill in a 

1751
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:35,640
whole sector that we weren't 
really taking advantage of. 

1752
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:38,720
I was really interested in it. 
I had gone, yeah, go and taking 

1753
01:40:38,720 --> 01:40:41,280
a bunch of classes in 
architectural lighting and I was

1754
01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:44,120
hot to do it. 
And some of my clients were 

1755
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:47,280
hiring me to do, you know, 
houses or restaurants that they 

1756
01:40:47,280 --> 01:40:49,120
owned. 
And so I, I thought I knew what 

1757
01:40:49,120 --> 01:40:52,880
I was doing. 
But I had a friend from my 

1758
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:56,200
Chicago days that was who is now
living in LA, Dawn 

1759
01:40:56,240 --> 01:41:01,200
Hollingsworth, who was a bona 
fide architectural lighting 

1760
01:41:01,200 --> 01:41:04,800
designer. 
And so we managed to get her to 

1761
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:10,120
join us and did that for a few 
years, really trying to grow the

1762
01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:11,800
architectural side of things, 
which. 

1763
01:41:11,800 --> 01:41:14,400
It was an interesting period of 
time too, because it was sort of

1764
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:18,440
when like this arc attainment 
thing started when so many like 

1765
01:41:18,440 --> 01:41:22,600
especially corporate things 
we're we're adding automated 

1766
01:41:22,600 --> 01:41:26,080
lighting or color change 
technology or whatever into 

1767
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:29,960
their retail environments or 
into their sometimes even 

1768
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:32,920
conference rooms and offices and
stuff like that. 

1769
01:41:33,240 --> 01:41:34,600
Exactly. 
Exactly. 

1770
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:39,640
But bridges were starting to be 
lit and and all kinds of things.

1771
01:41:39,640 --> 01:41:41,120
So that's. 
Right, that's right. 

1772
01:41:41,240 --> 01:41:45,240
LE DS were just beginning to, 
you know, rear their heads so 

1773
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:48,640
that there was, you know, color 
changing possible without a 

1774
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:51,440
whole lot of external technology
on them. 

1775
01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:53,880
Yeah. 
So yeah, it was a good time to 

1776
01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:57,240
be getting into that. 
We had one client, Gameworks, 

1777
01:41:57,240 --> 01:42:02,480
which was, you know, it like a 
big nightclub, restaurant gaming

1778
01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:06,560
chain that was really good for 
us. 

1779
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:08,560
And it was exactly what you just
described. 

1780
01:42:09,440 --> 01:42:14,200
So we did that. 
And then moving along, we we saw

1781
01:42:14,200 --> 01:42:18,240
a friend of ours, Lisa 
Passamante Green, who was, you 

1782
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:22,160
know, kind of a competitor in 
the architectural lighting side,

1783
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:25,920
but she also had a firm grip on 
the theme park. 

1784
01:42:26,400 --> 01:42:32,760
And, and she was suddenly left 
without her staff who had gone 

1785
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:35,120
off and began working with 
somebody else. 

1786
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:37,320
And we were lending her staff. 
At this point. 

1787
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:42,440
We had, you know, 15 or 20 
people in our office and we 

1788
01:42:42,440 --> 01:42:46,360
thought, Lisa, why don't you 
just join us and then you can 

1789
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:51,480
have, you know, a little bit of 
safety in the entertainment side

1790
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:54,320
and so forth, you know, kind of 
protecting the overall 

1791
01:42:54,320 --> 01:42:56,000
enterprise. 
And so she did. 

1792
01:42:56,200 --> 01:43:00,840
And so that was, that was when 
we, we decided we couldn't add 

1793
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:04,920
another name to the list. 
So we we called it Visual 

1794
01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:06,520
Terrain. 
Yeah. 

1795
01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:10,360
I remember that change. 
So was that set up like like a 

1796
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:15,960
collective or or like a 
partnership or what was sort of 

1797
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:19,120
the company structure? 
It it, it was a partnership and 

1798
01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:23,800
you know, we were all kind of in
charge of our own little sector,

1799
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:27,680
but we spilled over. 
I could do architectural work. 

1800
01:43:28,120 --> 01:43:31,800
Anybody could do anything they 
wanted to, but that partners 

1801
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:36,400
brought in the work and our 
compensation was more or less 

1802
01:43:36,640 --> 01:43:41,280
tied to the the clients and the 
income that we were able to 

1803
01:43:41,280 --> 01:43:44,480
bring in. 
But the as a collective, we were

1804
01:43:44,480 --> 01:43:51,000
paying the salaries of everyone 
and the any, any, anything else 

1805
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:52,960
that we needed in order to run 
business. 

1806
01:43:52,960 --> 01:43:57,200
Yeah, that makes sense. 
So I did that for, you know, 

1807
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:04,360
between 91 when I started with, 
with Jim and 2010 when I left. 

1808
01:44:04,360 --> 01:44:07,880
So there was like 20 years, 
yeah, of doing that. 

1809
01:44:07,880 --> 01:44:11,120
And I just decided I wanted to 
concentrate on the TV side. 

1810
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:16,040
I didn't really want any of the 
other corporate responsibilities

1811
01:44:16,040 --> 01:44:21,040
that, you know, that I had and, 
you know, sharing expenses with 

1812
01:44:21,040 --> 01:44:24,160
all the other sectors as well. 
I just really wanted a few 

1813
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:27,520
years, you know, that kind of 
the fourth quarter of my career 

1814
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:31,440
to run things on a slightly 
simpler level. 

1815
01:44:31,480 --> 01:44:34,800
So I did that. 
I brought one employee with me 

1816
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:38,160
and and just kept it, you know, 
lean and mean. 

1817
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:41,040
Yeah. 
And that's you today still. 

1818
01:44:41,120 --> 01:44:43,200
So you're. 
You're today that one employee 

1819
01:44:43,320 --> 01:44:48,720
left for for Disney about five 
years into the process. 

1820
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:54,480
And so right now I'm, I'm doing 
it entirely on my own. 

1821
01:44:54,480 --> 01:44:58,800
If I need to support help, I 
just hire people in buy the job,

1822
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:02,120
which is a much simpler way for 
me to operate. 

1823
01:45:02,160 --> 01:45:05,200
Yeah. 
And you know, I'm, I'm happy 

1824
01:45:05,200 --> 01:45:07,720
doing it the way I well. 
You're not in a, you're not in a

1825
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:11,200
growth mode, like you're not out
there trying to fight everybody 

1826
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:13,560
to bring in every account you 
can and stuff. 

1827
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:15,600
So you don't need a bunch of 
employees, right? 

1828
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:19,360
You know, So it makes a lot of 
sense what what you've done and 

1829
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:22,680
what you're doing. 
And, and I like it. 

1830
01:45:23,040 --> 01:45:30,120
I like it a lot. 
So, you know, one of the one of 

1831
01:45:30,120 --> 01:45:33,640
the things that you would know 
better than so many people is 

1832
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:40,360
just the general evolution of 
lighting for TV, for music on 

1833
01:45:40,360 --> 01:45:46,040
TV, for live events on TV. 
And I mean, obviously cameras, 

1834
01:45:46,440 --> 01:45:53,560
obviously going from, you know, 
stationary lights to moving 

1835
01:45:53,560 --> 01:45:58,200
lights and going from moving 
lights to better moving lights 

1836
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:00,800
and, and better moving lights to
LEDs. 

1837
01:46:02,240 --> 01:46:07,440
But aside from that, like as far
as the style of lighting and and

1838
01:46:07,440 --> 01:46:10,840
the the skill set involved and 
all of that, has that evolved as

1839
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:13,720
well? 
Well, AB absolutely. 

1840
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:20,720
I, you know, I think that since 
the 90s when this really began 

1841
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:24,840
till the, the present day, I 
think that the lighting has 

1842
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:29,000
gotten a lot more cinematic. 
I think that, you know, the 

1843
01:46:29,360 --> 01:46:32,320
lighting designers and the and, 
and the lighting consultants, 

1844
01:46:32,320 --> 01:46:37,800
the TV lighting consultants are 
much more tied into a cinematic 

1845
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:41,680
kind kind of look. 
And the cameras allow us to do 

1846
01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:45,360
that in order to make things 
look a lot more interesting and 

1847
01:46:45,360 --> 01:46:49,840
not quite so not quite so bland 
as they might have been in the 

1848
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:52,600
90s when the cameras needed that
much more light. 

1849
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:56,680
And I think the style was, you 
know, a lot of the lot of the 

1850
01:46:56,680 --> 01:47:00,600
directors of photography that 
would work on. 

1851
01:47:01,480 --> 01:47:05,920
Rock. 
Videos were from the commercial 

1852
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:10,880
world where everything is, you 
know, or in those days fairly 

1853
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:15,600
flat, fairly even to, you know, 
these days when everybody is 

1854
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:19,920
looking at the most interesting 
cinematography and wanting to 

1855
01:47:19,920 --> 01:47:24,960
transfer that to to a rock show 
when when it's appropriate. 

1856
01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:28,480
So I think in in that respect. 
And that's something that, you 

1857
01:47:28,480 --> 01:47:30,080
know, kind of speaks to me as 
well. 

1858
01:47:30,080 --> 01:47:35,800
So when I speak to students, I 
try to, you know, help them 

1859
01:47:35,800 --> 01:47:39,360
understand it's not about a 
traditional look anymore. 

1860
01:47:39,480 --> 01:47:45,440
Somebody, I was just attending a
webinar the other day with a 

1861
01:47:45,480 --> 01:47:50,760
cinematographer and somebody 
posed a question about soft 

1862
01:47:50,760 --> 01:47:58,280
light and what is soft light? 
An ineffective way, an 

1863
01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:03,600
uninteresting way to light 
people in in today's day and 

1864
01:48:03,600 --> 01:48:05,800
age. 
And the, the DP said, and I 

1865
01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:08,800
totally agreed with him. 
It's all about where the light 

1866
01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:12,480
comes from, how you control the 
light, how you control the 

1867
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:15,160
shadows. 
I talk an awful lot about shadow

1868
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:19,760
management, you know, when I, 
when I teach students and, and 

1869
01:48:19,760 --> 01:48:26,200
so I think understanding that 
developing your eye, I think 

1870
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:30,200
that's really what's come a long
way since since the early days. 

1871
01:48:30,200 --> 01:48:33,800
It's no longer just a matter of 
is there enough light, but how 

1872
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:37,000
do you use? 
Light, yeah, what about what 

1873
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:39,880
about AI? 
Is, is AI having any impact yet 

1874
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:43,760
on lighting for television? 
Like is AI doing any of the 

1875
01:48:43,760 --> 01:48:47,480
analysis on how much light, how 
little light you know, how 

1876
01:48:47,480 --> 01:48:50,000
things are going to need to be 
done, or is that all still done 

1877
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:52,600
by the lighting designer and 
you? 

1878
01:48:53,680 --> 01:48:56,440
Well, I'd be curious to know if 
anybody else is using it that 

1879
01:48:56,440 --> 01:48:57,320
way. 
I'm not. 

1880
01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:00,720
I haven't really seen the tools 
yet. 

1881
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:04,760
I know Vectorworks has some 
tools that will allow a set 

1882
01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:10,840
designer to, to say, OK, do do 
this set in a modern, modern 

1883
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:15,880
way, do this in an Italian, you 
know, Renaissance way and, and 

1884
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:19,400
the AI will simply just change 
it all and suddenly it's a it's,

1885
01:49:19,400 --> 01:49:21,720
it's a new look. 
I haven't seen anything like 

1886
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:24,680
that. 
I mean, there's certainly a lot 

1887
01:49:24,720 --> 01:49:28,760
of computerization when you 
think of what we can do with 

1888
01:49:28,760 --> 01:49:32,480
previz these days, but I haven't
really seen anything that does 

1889
01:49:33,040 --> 01:49:36,640
either calculations or design 
itself. 

1890
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:39,520
Yeah. 
Are you using AI at all yet? 

1891
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:45,200
Like for any kind of even just 
fixture mapping or writing or. 

1892
01:49:46,840 --> 01:49:51,840
Anything. 
I've begun using AI for a little

1893
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:54,920
bit for writing, you know, I try
not to rely on it, but sometimes

1894
01:49:54,920 --> 01:49:58,840
I just want to think of 
something, you know, a different

1895
01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:01,880
way and I'll see what I And I've
just really started doing this, 

1896
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,160
yeah, You know, playing around 
with it for a little while and 

1897
01:50:05,160 --> 01:50:07,000
trying to understand what it can
do. 

1898
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:10,320
So I've. 
I'm fascinated by it. 

1899
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:13,840
I'm going to get more into it. 
I am completely in favor of it. 

1900
01:50:14,840 --> 01:50:19,960
I don't want it to replace 
people, but I think if it's used

1901
01:50:19,960 --> 01:50:22,240
properly it won't. 
It'll just make us all better. 

1902
01:50:23,160 --> 01:50:26,800
Yeah, I think there's certainly 
an aspect of that where it does 

1903
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:29,440
make us all better. 
But I do think that ultimately 

1904
01:50:29,440 --> 01:50:34,280
it's going to replace many, 
many, many things. 

1905
01:50:34,280 --> 01:50:38,360
And how that happens and how 
eloquent it is and or how rough 

1906
01:50:38,360 --> 01:50:40,160
it is when that happens, we'll 
see. 

1907
01:50:40,480 --> 01:50:44,040
I just think it's another as big
as it is because I think this is

1908
01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:47,040
probably the biggest 
technological shift that that 

1909
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:52,560
man has has witnessed in in 
since the beginning of time. 

1910
01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:57,120
Maybe fire would be the other 
one, but but I think that that 

1911
01:50:57,120 --> 01:51:02,080
this is that impactful and it's 
going to be a wait and see kind 

1912
01:51:02,080 --> 01:51:04,040
of thing. 
It depends on so many people 

1913
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:07,360
doing the right things, you 
know, all these, you know, 

1914
01:51:07,360 --> 01:51:10,880
trillion dollar companies 
thinking in our best interests 

1915
01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:12,760
and stuff. 
And that doesn't always work. 

1916
01:51:12,760 --> 01:51:18,320
And but I just, I see a lot of 
opportunities for it to simplify

1917
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:22,840
and streamline a lot of jobs. 
You know, when, when I think of 

1918
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:26,760
the lines of code that you have 
to write to program an MA3 

1919
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:31,880
console these days, some of it 
is just not work that an LD 

1920
01:51:31,880 --> 01:51:34,640
who's been being paid a lot of 
money should be sitting there 

1921
01:51:34,640 --> 01:51:38,160
doing like, I mean, that stuff 
that AI can take. 

1922
01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:41,600
And that's where I use it the 
most is like, sometimes somebody

1923
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:46,160
will send me a document that's 
10 pages of a lot of the same 

1924
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:49,760
fluff and I'll just feed it into
something and say, you know, 

1925
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:53,160
explain this to me like I'm 
like, I'm a 6th grader. 

1926
01:51:53,160 --> 01:51:56,000
Not just summarize it, but 
sometimes it's explain this to 

1927
01:51:56,000 --> 01:52:02,160
me like I'm I'm an idiot. 
And because I am and, and you 

1928
01:52:02,160 --> 01:52:05,680
get really great results from 
stuff like that, you know, like 

1929
01:52:05,680 --> 01:52:08,480
it does a very, very good job 
with stuff like that. 

1930
01:52:08,480 --> 01:52:12,160
Sometimes I just say, Hey, take 
all this information and put it 

1931
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:17,880
into a, an 8 by 4 table with 
this and this and this and, and 

1932
01:52:17,880 --> 01:52:20,960
boom, all of the information is 
laid out exactly how you want 

1933
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:22,360
it. 
And it's just like, I'm very 

1934
01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,400
visual. 
So a lot of those types of tools

1935
01:52:24,560 --> 01:52:28,200
help me a lot. 
But I agree, I've done that too.

1936
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:31,400
I've I've recently had to read 
some legal documents and some of

1937
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:33,600
it was just, you know, gibberish
to me. 

1938
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:38,120
And it's amazing how AI can 
just, you know, break it down, 

1939
01:52:38,200 --> 01:52:42,200
give you examples. 
So, you know, as as long as you 

1940
01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:45,840
can trust it, you know, you 
don't want AI to say I think we 

1941
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:48,000
should launch the nuclear 
missile. 

1942
01:52:48,320 --> 01:52:52,120
Yeah, Yeah. 
That's a great example because 

1943
01:52:52,160 --> 01:52:56,440
you know it will at some point, 
you know, it would like at some 

1944
01:52:56,440 --> 01:53:02,480
point, I think we'll all be 
guided by AI to a certain extent

1945
01:53:02,480 --> 01:53:06,240
in, in our decision making 
process, whether that's driving 

1946
01:53:06,240 --> 01:53:09,840
or whether that's flying an 
airplane or whether that's, you 

1947
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:13,320
know, the guy in charge of the 
nuclear button or you know, 

1948
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:15,200
whatever it is. 
Or medical analysis. 

1949
01:53:15,200 --> 01:53:18,480
That's a big one. 
Well, but that's one that I'm 

1950
01:53:18,480 --> 01:53:22,200
super in favor of. 
Like, you know, I've had friends

1951
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:25,920
who have done these robotic 
surgeries for for like 

1952
01:53:25,920 --> 01:53:29,440
pancreatic cancer and stuff like
that very successfully. 

1953
01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:35,680
And so if you ask me, do I want 
surgery performed by a robot or 

1954
01:53:35,680 --> 01:53:39,600
by a human, I'll pick a robot 
every time because humans make 

1955
01:53:39,600 --> 01:53:41,800
mistakes. 
Robots don't, you know, as long 

1956
01:53:41,800 --> 01:53:44,160
as they're programmed properly. 
And you would think that they 

1957
01:53:44,160 --> 01:53:49,000
are by now. 
I think medical AI is going to 

1958
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:54,760
be probably one of the most 
exciting and incredible areas of

1959
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:59,560
AI in the next 5 or 6 years. 
Like I, I predict, you know, a 

1960
01:53:59,560 --> 01:54:06,560
cure to cancer, Alzheimer's, all
kinds of really, really big 

1961
01:54:06,560 --> 01:54:10,760
things that have been plaguing 
us for many, many years and with

1962
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:16,400
no real success as far as cures 
or, or even, you know, pathways 

1963
01:54:16,400 --> 01:54:19,520
to cures. 
So because of the ability to 

1964
01:54:19,520 --> 01:54:23,680
research, like that's where AI 
comes in so effectively and 

1965
01:54:23,680 --> 01:54:26,840
efficiently, as in research, it 
can like let's say you have to 

1966
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:30,480
go research a project because 
you're lighting a, you know, a 

1967
01:54:30,480 --> 01:54:36,840
15th century act or something, 
whatever it is, and you need to 

1968
01:54:36,840 --> 01:54:43,160
do research on that period. 
You know, AI can do in 10 

1969
01:54:43,160 --> 01:54:45,320
minutes what you could do in in 
two weeks. 

1970
01:54:46,040 --> 01:54:49,920
So that's the incredible thing. 
That's what I love about it so 

1971
01:54:49,920 --> 01:54:53,000
much. 
But yeah, I mean, it's common. 

1972
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:54,080
It's just going to be 
interesting. 

1973
01:54:54,080 --> 01:54:59,000
Like I think for now, there are 
commercial roadblocks that are 

1974
01:54:59,000 --> 01:55:02,880
keeping companies like MA 
Lighting from from putting AI in

1975
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:06,880
consoles. 
I think that there's going to 

1976
01:55:07,480 --> 01:55:10,280
going to be, you know, sort of a
slow move into that. 

1977
01:55:10,280 --> 01:55:13,040
And then all of a sudden 
everybody all at once, because 

1978
01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:16,000
once somebody sort of cracks the
seal open and says, hey, look, 

1979
01:55:16,440 --> 01:55:18,720
you know, because right now 
designers are going to fight it,

1980
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:22,160
especially people who are in 
their living programming 

1981
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:25,440
consoles are going to fight it. 
And, and so they should, I mean,

1982
01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:28,440
you know, you don't want to, you
don't want your rates to go down

1983
01:55:28,440 --> 01:55:32,000
or to lose days or anything 
because AI is doing it instead 

1984
01:55:32,000 --> 01:55:34,520
of you, right, Right. 
Exactly, exactly. 

1985
01:55:34,520 --> 01:55:37,760
But I mean, can you, can you 
then just say to the MA, give me

1986
01:55:37,760 --> 01:55:41,000
a stone's cue? 
Yeah, yeah. 

1987
01:55:41,000 --> 01:55:44,240
That's the other thing is, is 
the whole copyright and who owns

1988
01:55:44,240 --> 01:55:49,320
the the IP of all of the stuff. 
But that's the other problem. 

1989
01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:53,640
And you can, you can like I use 
the music one quite often or one

1990
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:57,800
of the music ones called Suno. 
And in SUNO, you can say, you 

1991
01:55:57,800 --> 01:56:00,840
know, I want something kind of 
jazzy, but a little bit Earth, 

1992
01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:04,200
wind, fire and and, you know, a 
little bit of this and a little 

1993
01:56:04,200 --> 01:56:06,840
bit of that boom, you get that 
style now. 

1994
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:10,000
They're not copying songs, but 
they're certainly, they're 

1995
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:12,880
certainly pulling some of that 
styling into it, you know? 

1996
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:14,120
Yeah. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1997
01:56:14,160 --> 01:56:18,280
Yeah. 
So yeah, I mean, Suno, the music

1998
01:56:18,280 --> 01:56:23,000
one, their new the iPhone app 
anyways, I don't know if it does

1999
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:26,440
it on the Android one, but the 
iPhone app, you can hum a few 

2000
01:56:26,440 --> 01:56:31,480
notes into it or a few bars into
it and then say, now create a 

2001
01:56:31,480 --> 01:56:36,880
reggae song around that, that 
little melody that I just gave 

2002
01:56:36,880 --> 01:56:42,800
you and make it in, you know, 
whatever beats per minute and in

2003
01:56:42,800 --> 01:56:46,480
this style with this type of a 
singer and you've got the song. 

2004
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:48,120
I mean, it's just incredible 
how. 

2005
01:56:48,120 --> 01:56:50,920
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, as much fun as that is, 

2006
01:56:51,040 --> 01:56:55,560
and I guess it gives us, you 
know, gives the world more 

2007
01:56:56,160 --> 01:57:02,560
variety of music, Does it take 
something away from it does now?

2008
01:57:02,560 --> 01:57:04,760
We don't need humans to do that.
Yeah, I know. 

2009
01:57:04,760 --> 01:57:06,400
Of course it does. 
Of course it does. 

2010
01:57:06,400 --> 01:57:08,840
Like it's. 
Yeah. 

2011
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:11,600
So that's some of the stuff 
where I wonder where it's all 

2012
01:57:11,600 --> 01:57:14,880
gonna go because, you know, of 
course musicians are gonna push 

2013
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:19,040
back on all of that stuff. 
But our audiences, like, I don't

2014
01:57:19,040 --> 01:57:20,440
know. 
I don't know where it all goes. 

2015
01:57:20,440 --> 01:57:24,800
And then if, if audiences accept
AI music, well, what happens to 

2016
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:27,640
live music now? 
Because there's such a massive 

2017
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:32,960
need for and and passion and 
desire for live music right now 

2018
01:57:33,240 --> 01:57:37,400
and market for it. 
You know, if music is suddenly 

2019
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:41,600
AI robots, you know you're not 
going to have unless it's just a

2020
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:45,240
big video screen with cool 
visuals and and you're listening

2021
01:57:45,240 --> 01:57:49,040
to music in a crowd with a video
screen like that sounds awfully 

2022
01:57:49,040 --> 01:57:51,400
boring to me so. 
Well, I'll tell you, in 100 

2023
01:57:51,400 --> 01:57:55,080
years, they're going to be 
listening to this podcast and 

2024
01:57:55,080 --> 01:57:58,520
probably laughing at us for 
knowing so little about. 

2025
01:57:58,520 --> 01:58:00,840
What you idiots? 
Going to be commonplace in a. 

2026
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:02,840
100 years. 
Well, by the way, it wouldn't be

2027
01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:05,840
the first time I screwed up a 
prediction because you know, 

2028
01:58:05,840 --> 01:58:09,520
COVID I, I created a, a phrase 
called day 91. 

2029
01:58:09,520 --> 01:58:12,640
I said this is going to be a 
nine 90 day problem and what do 

2030
01:58:12,640 --> 01:58:15,640
you want your business to look 
like in day 91? 

2031
01:58:15,920 --> 01:58:20,800
And, you know, people threw that
at me for about the next 380 

2032
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:23,080
days or something. 
You know, it's like, yeah, day 

2033
01:58:23,080 --> 01:58:24,360
91, huh? 
Yeah. 

2034
01:58:24,400 --> 01:58:26,840
Well you just said it out loud. 
I think everyone else thought it

2035
01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:28,680
was just going to be a 90 day 
thing too. 

2036
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:32,320
Yeah, well, I say everything out
loud that most people just think

2037
01:58:32,320 --> 01:58:35,000
and keep quietly because they're
smart enough not to say it. 

2038
01:58:35,000 --> 01:58:36,800
Yes, yes. 
So show light. 

2039
01:58:36,800 --> 01:58:38,400
Tell me. 
Tell me about show light. 

2040
01:58:38,400 --> 01:58:41,000
Show light, from what I 
understand is sort of get 

2041
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:44,320
together of of these really 
great minds of the lighting 

2042
01:58:44,320 --> 01:58:47,160
business. 
Yes, I'm, it was started, you 

2043
01:58:47,160 --> 01:58:55,360
know, maybe 25 years ago by some
Brits and they, they do it once 

2044
01:58:55,360 --> 01:58:59,520
every four years. 
It's kind of a convocation in a 

2045
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:02,680
different city. 
They've been to several cities 

2046
01:59:02,680 --> 01:59:04,840
in Europe. 
They did one in New York but I 

2047
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:09,120
think they they much prefer 
doing it in Europe and they get 

2048
01:59:10,640 --> 01:59:15,600
people sort of like a Ted talk. 
For lighting designers. 

2049
01:59:16,080 --> 01:59:21,920
The format is 3/3. 
Lighting designers are on stage 

2050
01:59:22,040 --> 01:59:26,800
each give a 20 minute 
presentation with or without 

2051
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:30,840
visual, but most have some sort 
of visual support. 

2052
01:59:31,400 --> 01:59:36,800
Then those 3 speakers stay on 
stage and they take questions 

2053
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:40,440
for about 1/2 an hour and this 
happens and then there's a break

2054
01:59:40,440 --> 01:59:43,360
for food and there's some 
manufacturers that have tables 

2055
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:47,880
that you can visit and then you 
go back and you do it again. 

2056
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:51,880
So they bring lighting designers
from all walks of lighting 

2057
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:58,000
design and try to get as many 
different, what they call them 

2058
01:59:58,000 --> 02:00:00,880
presenting a paper. 
But you know, it's this 

2059
02:00:00,960 --> 02:00:03,720
presentation on so many 
different things. 

2060
02:00:03,720 --> 02:00:06,680
So it's been. 
Directors, directors of 

2061
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:10,160
photography, it's been 
theatrical lighting designers 

2062
02:00:10,160 --> 02:00:14,960
that have done in, you know, big
Broadway musicals, but in in a 

2063
02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:22,080
diner, you know, rock'n'roll 
people, BBC lighting directors, 

2064
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:26,800
etcetera, etcetera. 
Less architectural, but there is

2065
02:00:27,040 --> 02:00:29,440
a little little bit of that. 
And somebody from the 

2066
02:00:29,440 --> 02:00:32,120
architectural world wanted to 
propose a paper. 

2067
02:00:32,120 --> 02:00:34,960
They very well could be 
accepted. 

2068
02:00:34,960 --> 02:00:39,120
So it's three days of this at 
the end of every day. 

2069
02:00:39,160 --> 02:00:42,400
The first day everybody's 
matched up with a manufacturer 

2070
02:00:42,400 --> 02:00:44,760
and they take you out to a 
fabulous dinner somewhere in the

2071
02:00:44,760 --> 02:00:47,280
city that you're in. 
So far, the ones that I've been 

2072
02:00:47,280 --> 02:00:51,200
to have been outside Prague in a
little village about two hours 

2073
02:00:52,040 --> 02:00:54,680
out in the Czech Republic 
mountains. 

2074
02:00:55,960 --> 02:00:59,000
And I went and I went to one in 
Florence, Italy, which was 

2075
02:00:59,000 --> 02:01:01,440
great. 
They took a long break because 

2076
02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:04,320
of the pandemic. 
And so they're just doing a new 

2077
02:01:04,320 --> 02:01:09,600
one this year in Dijon, France, 
couple hours out of Paris. 

2078
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:13,200
And so I'm going. 
And so, and then there one, one 

2079
02:01:13,200 --> 02:01:18,080
of the three nights, there's a 
big gala reception where 

2080
02:01:18,080 --> 02:01:22,080
everybody gets together and 
people give a few speeches and 

2081
02:01:22,880 --> 02:01:26,520
you are encouraged to change 
your location from table to 

2082
02:01:26,520 --> 02:01:28,000
table to speak to certain 
people. 

2083
02:01:28,000 --> 02:01:31,360
Like if your napkin has a 
certain color sticker on the 

2084
02:01:31,360 --> 02:01:34,480
bottom of it, you're the one who
is chosen when they ring the 

2085
02:01:34,480 --> 02:01:37,400
bell to go to another table. 
So everybody gets to talk to 

2086
02:01:37,400 --> 02:01:39,040
everyone else. 
There are a lot of lighting 

2087
02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:42,760
celebrities there, Broadway 
people, rock'n'roll people, TV, 

2088
02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:45,480
etcetera, etcetera. 
So I think it's a learning 

2089
02:01:45,480 --> 02:01:47,080
experience. 
It's fun. 

2090
02:01:47,240 --> 02:01:49,640
You get to go to a really 
interesting city. 

2091
02:01:49,760 --> 02:01:52,400
They haven't, they break early 
one day and take you on a tour 

2092
02:01:52,480 --> 02:01:58,760
or the city. 
And so it's just really, and so 

2093
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:00,360
it who, who? 
Runs it. 

2094
02:02:01,080 --> 02:02:03,360
Is it like a not-for-profit or 
something? 

2095
02:02:04,120 --> 02:02:07,760
Yeah, there was a show light 
committee that was based in in 

2096
02:02:07,760 --> 02:02:14,880
the UK and a few of the founders
retired or passed on in the last

2097
02:02:14,880 --> 02:02:16,320
few years. 
So there's a new group of 

2098
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:21,160
people, but it's mostly a 
consortium of five or six 

2099
02:02:21,320 --> 02:02:28,160
organizers that are based mostly
in the Uka little bit in the US.

2100
02:02:28,160 --> 02:02:31,240
And people just put it all 
together from a finding the 

2101
02:02:31,240 --> 02:02:35,320
venue standpoint to selecting 
all of the people that do the 

2102
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:37,640
presentations. 
And so you can imagine. 

2103
02:02:37,640 --> 02:02:41,280
So you get selected every year. 
You're getting or not every 

2104
02:02:41,280 --> 02:02:42,960
year, but you're getting 
selected. 

2105
02:02:42,960 --> 02:02:45,000
You don't just raise your hand 
and say I want to come. 

2106
02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:48,800
No, no, you, oh, you you have to
buy a ticket. 

2107
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:50,680
You OK? 
Yeah, yeah. 

2108
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:53,760
So you can go to their website 
which is I think show light 

2109
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:56,640
hell, I'm not saying. 
You, I'm saying you, you Jeff 

2110
02:02:56,640 --> 02:02:57,720
Rabbit. 
I was. 

2111
02:02:57,720 --> 02:03:01,520
I was invited to to do a 
presentation last time. 

2112
02:03:01,600 --> 02:03:04,880
This time I decided that I 
didn't have anything really new 

2113
02:03:04,880 --> 02:03:07,880
to contribute more than I did 
last time, so. 

2114
02:03:07,880 --> 02:03:09,000
You're going just as an 
audience. 

2115
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:11,080
I'm just going as an audience 
member, a punter. 

2116
02:03:11,560 --> 02:03:15,160
Yeah, Exactly, exactly. 
Interesting and. 

2117
02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:18,400
Is it mostly students and stuff 
who are in the audience or? 

2118
02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:21,160
No, no. 
There are some students. 

2119
02:03:21,280 --> 02:03:26,520
There are some students, but it 
really runs the full spectrum of

2120
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:30,880
student to geezer. 
And how how many people are in 

2121
02:03:30,880 --> 02:03:33,240
the audience? 
3 or 400? 

2122
02:03:33,560 --> 02:03:35,160
Oh wow. 
Yeah, interesting. 

2123
02:03:35,160 --> 02:03:41,200
I'd say probably closer to 300. 
And yeah, I mean all the 

2124
02:03:41,200 --> 02:03:44,320
manufacturers, all the kingpins 
of the manufacturing, you know, 

2125
02:03:44,320 --> 02:03:48,800
companies, it's always sponsored
by one of the big manufacturers.

2126
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:52,080
So this year I believe it's 
being sponsored by Juliet 

2127
02:03:52,080 --> 02:03:53,840
because they're they're in 
France. 

2128
02:03:54,880 --> 02:03:57,880
And when we were in the, the 
Czech Republic, it was Roe Bay, 

2129
02:03:57,880 --> 02:04:02,200
of course, you know, and, and 
then Clay Paki when we were in 

2130
02:04:02,200 --> 02:04:06,880
Italy. 
So, so you know that they sort 

2131
02:04:06,880 --> 02:04:10,400
of inject the flavor of their, 
you know, their own style and 

2132
02:04:10,400 --> 02:04:14,160
their company into the the 
overall event, but all the 

2133
02:04:14,160 --> 02:04:16,920
others are there as well. 
Interesting. 

2134
02:04:17,320 --> 02:04:22,680
And then you know the, the 
little lobby manufacturing 

2135
02:04:22,680 --> 02:04:27,680
tables, manufacturers tables are
much more intimate than you 

2136
02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:31,640
would get at LDI, which is so, 
so much busier. 

2137
02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:35,480
So you have good one-on-one 
time, you're only out there for 

2138
02:04:35,480 --> 02:04:38,920
about 20 minutes and then you're
back inside the auditorium for 

2139
02:04:38,920 --> 02:04:42,040
another set of presentations 
after they have applied you with

2140
02:04:42,040 --> 02:04:45,400
food and drink during the break.
It sounds fun, I'm going to have

2141
02:04:45,400 --> 02:04:48,360
to check it out probably. 
Not in May. 

2142
02:04:48,800 --> 02:04:56,480
Yeah, go to showlight.org and, 
you know, give it a try. 

2143
02:04:56,520 --> 02:04:59,560
Yeah, it's a Dijon France, but 
wow, it's fun. 

2144
02:04:59,560 --> 02:05:04,000
Sounds sounds amazing. 
And the other thing that I 

2145
02:05:04,000 --> 02:05:07,320
wanted to get to before we leave
because we're getting pretty 

2146
02:05:07,320 --> 02:05:10,240
long in the tooth here, you and 
me talkers. 

2147
02:05:12,160 --> 02:05:15,840
So I know that you've been big 
on, on helping people, not only 

2148
02:05:15,840 --> 02:05:20,560
through education, where, where 
you've been extremely giving of 

2149
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:22,640
your time. 
You're, you're always involved 

2150
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:26,920
in these things where you're 
either speaking or you're, you 

2151
02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:29,680
know, you're, you're teaching 
somewhere something. 

2152
02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:32,960
So it doesn't shock me that 
you're going to show like, 

2153
02:05:32,960 --> 02:05:35,400
because it's another one of 
those types of events. 

2154
02:05:35,720 --> 02:05:40,440
But I know you also get involved
in more structured charities and

2155
02:05:40,440 --> 02:05:42,680
things too, right? 
Yes, yes. 

2156
02:05:43,640 --> 02:05:48,160
And there there are a couple 
that I really love. 

2157
02:05:49,120 --> 02:05:55,320
Feeding America is a national 
organized food bank that has 

2158
02:05:56,840 --> 02:06:02,320
contributed a lot to all of the 
the United States based 

2159
02:06:02,520 --> 02:06:07,400
disasters over many, many years.
They were very instrumental in 

2160
02:06:07,400 --> 02:06:10,120
helping out along with, you 
know, World Central Kitchen and 

2161
02:06:10,120 --> 02:06:15,480
so forth when we had the recent 
wildfires here in Los Angeles 

2162
02:06:15,480 --> 02:06:18,320
that were so devastating. 
Food Bank, which does things on 

2163
02:06:18,320 --> 02:06:23,480
a much more local level here in 
in Los Angeles for the many 

2164
02:06:23,560 --> 02:06:28,640
homeless people that, you know, 
really benefit greatly from 

2165
02:06:28,640 --> 02:06:34,840
their generosity and outreach. 
And then there's also on North 

2166
02:06:34,840 --> 02:06:38,720
Hollywood, the North Hollywood 
Food Bank that I occasionally go

2167
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:42,800
in and, and do some cooking for.
Oh, wow, that's cool. 

2168
02:06:42,880 --> 02:06:44,480
Good for you. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

2169
02:06:44,720 --> 02:06:47,760
So I, you know, for a couple. 
Of years when my son was really 

2170
02:06:47,760 --> 02:06:52,400
young, I used to take him and my
business partner at the time and

2171
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:56,000
his two kids and we'd throw them
in the back of the pickup truck.

2172
02:06:56,000 --> 02:06:59,280
And we'd go to one of the 
churches, would make Turkey 

2173
02:06:59,440 --> 02:07:02,680
dinners in a box. 
And we'd go load up with like, 

2174
02:07:02,680 --> 02:07:06,040
you know, 2-3 hundred of these 
Turkey dinners in the back of 

2175
02:07:06,040 --> 02:07:08,520
the truck. 
And the kids would just jump out

2176
02:07:08,520 --> 02:07:10,960
and go door to door and hand out
all these Turkey dinners. 

2177
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:15,040
And we'd drive around, you know,
I don't know what you call them,

2178
02:07:15,040 --> 02:07:18,840
but less advantage neighborhoods
or whatever. 

2179
02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:22,600
And you know, they just knock on
the door and say, hey, do you 

2180
02:07:22,600 --> 02:07:25,160
want Thanksgiving dinner? 
And they'd be like, Oh my God, 

2181
02:07:25,160 --> 02:07:28,480
yes. 
And you know, they'd they'd. 

2182
02:07:28,720 --> 02:07:31,120
And I loved it. 
I always said, I want to get way

2183
02:07:31,120 --> 02:07:33,800
more involved in this stuff. 
And then life grabs you and you 

2184
02:07:33,800 --> 02:07:37,400
get busy and of course, but you 
know, I say if everybody does it

2185
02:07:37,400 --> 02:07:41,080
when they can, then then we've. 
Got it much more covered. 

2186
02:07:41,080 --> 02:07:44,240
And, you know, food insecurity 
is just heartbreaking in this 

2187
02:07:44,240 --> 02:07:49,600
country where so many have so 
much and so many don't that, you

2188
02:07:49,600 --> 02:07:51,520
know, I think we can even score 
a little bit. 

2189
02:07:51,880 --> 02:07:53,680
Yeah. 
No, it's so true. 

2190
02:07:53,920 --> 02:07:58,560
You know it's Tony. 
Robbins I think it's a bad rap 

2191
02:07:58,560 --> 02:08:01,920
from a lot of people in our 
industry because supposedly he, 

2192
02:08:01,960 --> 02:08:05,040
he walks away without fully 
paying the bill occasionally, 

2193
02:08:05,400 --> 02:08:12,080
but but he's done so much for 
feeding, you know, people and 

2194
02:08:12,080 --> 02:08:15,320
like he's, I can't remember what
number he's at now, but 

2195
02:08:15,320 --> 02:08:17,560
something like 100 million 
meals. 

2196
02:08:18,360 --> 02:08:23,360
You know, he's got like this 
mission to to hand out a billion

2197
02:08:23,360 --> 02:08:25,880
meals and he's like over 100 
million or something. 

2198
02:08:25,880 --> 02:08:28,800
And I'm probably way off on all 
these numbers, but it's just an 

2199
02:08:28,800 --> 02:08:32,240
enormous number that you're 
going like really that many. 

2200
02:08:32,280 --> 02:08:35,520
And so, you know, he's 
constantly. 

2201
02:08:35,520 --> 02:08:37,680
Collecting money from. 
His billionaire friends and 

2202
02:08:37,680 --> 02:08:40,160
stuff to pay for this stuff. 
And, you know, it's hard to 

2203
02:08:40,160 --> 02:08:43,280
believe, like you said in, you 
know, as much money as there is 

2204
02:08:43,280 --> 02:08:45,920
flying around right now, it's 
hard to believe that people are 

2205
02:08:45,920 --> 02:08:48,600
starving, you know, that people 
don't know where they're getting

2206
02:08:48,600 --> 02:08:49,760
their next meal from. 
So. 

2207
02:08:50,000 --> 02:08:51,480
Yeah. 
And how awful is that? 

2208
02:08:51,960 --> 02:08:56,640
Yeah, it's always an incredibly.
Important thing so. 

2209
02:08:56,640 --> 02:08:58,960
Thank you for being so 
charitable and taking care of 

2210
02:08:58,960 --> 02:09:00,560
some of that stuff. 
Yeah, yeah. 

2211
02:09:00,640 --> 02:09:04,600
And we're talking about it. 
We're at two hours, so I think 

2212
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:07,360
we got. 
To go, but I I appreciate you so

2213
02:09:07,360 --> 02:09:09,200
much, Jeff. 
I could sit and talk to you and 

2214
02:09:09,200 --> 02:09:12,240
listen to you for hours on end. 
I, I think you're one of the 

2215
02:09:12,240 --> 02:09:17,440
nicer people in our industry. 
I'm super glad to to have you as

2216
02:09:17,440 --> 02:09:20,800
a friend and to be able to talk 
to you occasionally and love 

2217
02:09:20,800 --> 02:09:22,440
seeing you at trade shows and 
stuff. 

2218
02:09:22,440 --> 02:09:26,160
And and I'm just glad you're 
still working and, you know, 

2219
02:09:26,160 --> 02:09:29,520
you're not like we don't have to
set up a GoFundMe for Jeff 

2220
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:31,960
Rabbits. 
You know, that would suck. 

2221
02:09:32,680 --> 02:09:35,280
Yeah, well, thanks, Marcel. 
I mean, you're, you're great to 

2222
02:09:35,280 --> 02:09:37,440
talk to as well. 
And, and a really great 

2223
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:38,040
interviewer. 
I. 

2224
02:09:38,040 --> 02:09:42,640
Enjoyed this a lot, and yeah, I 
I, I've enjoyed all your other 

2225
02:09:42,640 --> 02:09:45,000
podcasts as well. 
Oh well, thank you so much. 

2226
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:46,720
We're going to have to do it 
again though, because we didn't 

2227
02:09:46,720 --> 02:09:51,440
even talk about Morpheus. 
And you've been the most loyal 

2228
02:09:51,440 --> 02:09:55,120
Morpheus user of any Morpheus 
user, I think, ever. 

2229
02:09:55,640 --> 02:09:59,720
And and so, you know, that's a 
whole story unto itself. 

2230
02:09:59,720 --> 02:10:01,080
So we'll save it for the next 
one. 

2231
02:10:01,360 --> 02:10:03,000
Cool. 
So thank you. 

2232
02:10:03,040 --> 02:10:05,760
And and you have a great rest of
your week. 

2233
02:10:05,960 --> 02:10:07,000
You too. 
You too. 

2234
02:10:07,040 --> 02:10:08,040
Thanks, friends. 
I'll be well. 

2235
02:10:08,040 --> 02:10:08,840
All right. 
See ya.