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Welcome to the ONE CA podcast. 
This is your host, Jack Gaines. 

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ONE CA is a product of the Civil
Affairs Association and brings 

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in people who are current or 
former military diplomats, 

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development officers, and field 
agents to discuss their 

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experiences on ground with a 
partner nation's people and 

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leadership. 
Our goal is to inspire anyone 

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interested in working the last 
three feet of Foreign Relations.

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To contact the show, e-mail us 
at ca.podcasting@gmail.com or 

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look us up on the Civil Affairs 
Association website at 

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www.dubbacivilaffairsassoci.org.
I'll have those in the show 

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notes. 
Please welcome back Sam Cooper 

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of the Bureau as he interviews 
Adam Zebo, who is an independent

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journalist covering the protests
in Serbia. 

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Today we're joined by 
independent journalist Adam 

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Zevo, who's done brilliant 
reporting for the Bureau and 

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many other Canadian news outlets
about Canada's safer supply 

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opioid programs. 
He led the way for the past 

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couple of years, exposing how 
these safer supply programs 

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intended to save lives were 
hijacked by organized crime, 

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making the fentanyl crisis even 
worse. 

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And these programs are now being
rolled back. 

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So tremendous credit to Adam for
his brave research there. 

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And he's continuing his 
international journalism work. 

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He's on the ground in Serbia, 
where historic student LED 

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protests are shaking the 
foundations of what some have 

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been calling a mafia. 
State. 

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Something like 300,000 people at
the peak have been on the 

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streets in Serbia challenging 
corruption, challenging how the 

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state is coming apart at the 
seams and hurting students. 

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So Adam, you're there. 
Without diving into the history,

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just tell us what you're seeing 
on the ground right now. 

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What I'm seeing on the ground 
right now is a sense of optimism

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that Serbia has not seen in 
years. 

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And I do want to clarify that 
I'm ethnically Serbian and I've 

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traveled here quite often since 
2018. 

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Serbia is a country that has 
struggled with deep seated 

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corruption since the 1990s if 
not longer and essentially most 

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of the institutions have been Co
opted by the mafia. 

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People do refer to Serbia as a 
mafia state. 

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As a result of this corruption 
living standards had stagnated 

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and Serbia is being left behind 
and a large number of people 

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have emigrated. 
I think about 25% of former 

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Yugoslavia has moved away since 
the 90s. 

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And this all came to a head back
in November when a train station

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in Novisad, which is the second 
largest city in Serbia, 

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partially collapsed. 
So there was a concrete canopy 

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and it fell and it killed about 
16 people. 

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And that raised a lot of 
concerns because the train 

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station actually just been 
renovated as part of a Chinese 

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belt and Rd. initiative. 
So China wants to build high 

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speed rail between Budapest and 
Athens and Novisa den Belgrade. 

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That was the initial test run. 
And that was something that 

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people used every single day. 
It was an incredible piece of 

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infrastructure. 
It was the regime's main victory

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when it came to renewing Serbia.
Everyone loved it. 

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And a few months after the 
station reopened, all of a 

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sudden you have 16 people dying.
Now, as with any kind of corrupt

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regime, the president, Alexander
Vucic, was very slow in 

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responding, providing any real 
accountability. 

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And so they did some kind of 
like, fake arrest for one of the

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ministers who signed off on 
this. 

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And he was released shortly 
afterwards. 

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And because of the fact that he 
didn't seem to face any real 

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consequences and no one else 
seemed to face any real 

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consequences, and the 
procurement contracts for this 

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station remained private. 
All of a sudden, these 

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protesters came and had vigils 
and, you know, blockades in the 

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El Visad. 
And had the government just left

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these people alone, it's likely 
that the movement would have 

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fizzled out after a few weeks or
a few months. 

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But that's not how things work 
in Serbia. 

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This is a very corrupt country. 
So in mid November, a whole 

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bunch of masked thugs came and 
started beating these 

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protesters. 
I think some of them had 

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baseball bats. 
And then on top of that, you had

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some cars that would actually 
ram into the protesters. 

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And so that didn't actually 
suppress the protests. 

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In fact, it just inflamed the 
situation further. 

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And as a result, all of these 
Serbians realized that they had 

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enough of corruption, They had 
enough of this regime, which is 

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quite authoritarian, that is 
undermining democratic 

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institutions for over a decade 
now. 

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And they began to support the 
students to the point that in 

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December, 100,000 people marched
in the streets of Belgrade, 

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which was the largest protest in
the country's history up until 

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that point. 
And so things continue to 

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intensify because these attacks 
against the protesters 

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continued. 
While I was here, 1 protester 

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got stabbed in southern Serbia 
by another one of these strange 

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mysterious mass goons. 
So you know that I look at the 

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Belton Rd. 
I look at Hong Kong and mask 

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thugs stepping into democracy 
protests. 

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And so let's step back. 
One second Mafia state. 

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My understanding we're talking 
about some states in Europe. 

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I believe at the end of the day 
we'll have to say China, North 

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Korea, people would say Russia, 
Latin America. 

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We have a senior ministers, if 
not the very top that have a 

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support from organized crime and
may even be directing organized 

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crime. 
Is that your definition of what 

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we're talking about here? 
Oh, absolutely. 

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And this is where I think Serbia
actually fits very neatly into 

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the work that you've been doing 
about how authoritarian regimes 

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outsource a lot of their dirty 
work to organize gang. 

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So the Vucic regime is coming 
into power in 2012, 2014 ish. 

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They really maintain close 
relationships with top criminal 

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leaders in Serbia. 
And the way that this all works 

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in Serbia is that many of these 
organized criminals are often 

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part of soccer groups, and they 
often do soccer games and then 

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they organize amongst each other
at the games. 

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So there's an intersection 
between the soccer hooligans, 

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the organized criminals, and the
top level ministers of this 

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government. 
And so it's common knowledge 

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here that organized crime works 
hand in hand with the 

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governments. 
And that's something which 

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really became a scandal about 
five years ago when one major 

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Serbian mafia boss was hauled 
into a trial. 

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And his his story was 
sensational. 

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He managed a House of horrors 
about one hour to the east of 

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Belgrade. 
And there he would take was 

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victims and they would torture 
them, dismember them and then 

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put them through an industrial 
scale meat grinder and then take

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the remains, put that into bags,
need to throw that in the Danube

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River or burn all of the victims
possession. 

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So it was really gory. 
And even though Serbia is a 

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pretty intense country where 
horrible things happened quite 

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often, this was something that 
stood out. 

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And then this guy basically 
testified that his crime group 

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had been put together at the 
direction of Alexander Vucic, 

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the president, and did his 
bidding. 

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Now Vucic of course denied that,
but no one believes him. 

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OK, let me ask the Belton Rd. 
So I've written a lot about 

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this. 
We have Peru, Panama, British 

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Columbia, the global S These are
jurisdictions and of course 

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British Columbia shouldn't be 
one of them, but is. 

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But they welcome on paper cheap 
Chinese loans to finance 

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infrastructure. 
China gets port access. 

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China is on the surface making a
country standard of living rise.

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But a metaphor is that a train 
station, the roof will collapse 

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five years, 10 years later if we
really see the end game here, 

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China owns your critical 
infrastructure, essentially, and

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they're corrupting your 
officials. 

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Is this how you see it and 
what's going on there? 

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Absolutely, but I do want to 
stress that the situation in 

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Serbia is rather unique because 
Serbia is at a crossroads 

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between the East and West and 
Vucic has been really good at 

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doing the strategy which in 
Serbia is referred to as sitting

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on 2 chairs. 
So in the early 2000 tens he 

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really emphasized his desire to 
integrate Serbia into the EU, 

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which many Serbians found 
suspect because which each is a 

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very well known figure in 
Serbian politics. 

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He was the minister of 
information in the last years of

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the Milosevic regime in the 90s 
and during that period 

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journalists and yet murdered. 
He was a far right hyper 

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nationalist radical who 
rebranded as a Europhile and for

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some reason the EU bureaucrats 
bought it and they said OK, 

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Serbia will make low reforms and
then eventually we will review 

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this membership and potentially 
integrate Serbia into the EU at 

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some point in the future. 
But what which each would do is 

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he would say, OK, well if you 
disrespect me, I'm also going to

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maintain relationships with 
Russia and China and I can go to

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them if I want to. 
So he was in the sides against 

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each other, but by the early 
twenty 20s he really abandoned 

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any pretense of wanting to 
integrate Serbia into the EU. 

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And so EU politicians have kind 
of just accepted it because from

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their perspective, as long as 
which each can keep Serbia 

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stable, then that's OK. 
We'll accept democratic 

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backsliding, we'll accept as 
authoritarianism, we'll accept 

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the corruption, just so long as 
the Balkans doesn't blow up 

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again. 
Now, looping back, Russia 

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obviously has a strong influence
in Serbia, partially because of 

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a close sense of cultural 
affinity. 

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Many Serbians are more socially 
conservative, more religious, 

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and they're Eastern Orthodox. 
And so they feel a kinship with 

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Russia, particularly under 
Vladimir Putin, ever since Putin

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began to emphasize religiosity 
and social conservatism in his 

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politics. 
Then on top of that, they view 

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Russia as being one of the few 
countries that stood up for 

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Serbia in the 90s. 
So that's a really complicated 

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story that we're not going to 
get into. 

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But Russia doesn't have the 
economic resources to invest 

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into Serbia in the same way that
China does. 

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So China has recently emerged as
a very powerful figure in 

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Serbia. 
Between 2017 and 2022, the 

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amount of direct foreign 
investment coming into Serbia 

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from China increased tenfold. 
They began to build all sorts of

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large infrastructure, like this 
train station and this railway. 

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They purchased one of the 
largest steel factories in 

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Serbia, in a small town called 
Smetherville. 

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And they often brought in 
Chinese labor to make this 

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infrastructure. 
So you wouldn't see economic 

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benefits for the average Serbian
because they're not getting jobs

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out of it. 
So there is an increasing 

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anxiety among some Serbians, 
especially in civil society, 

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that China is luring Serbia into
a form of debt trap diplomacy, 

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as we've seen in these other 
countries, and that the benefits

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will be concentrated within the 
local corrupt elites and that 

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everyday Serbians won't actually
benefit. 

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And then they'll find in 1020 
years that they've effectively 

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signed away parts of their 
sovereignty. 

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What's it like just as a 
journalist on the ground there? 

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I mean, you're talking about 
masked thugs likely are 

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sponsored by the government and 
would be mafia elements used 

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just as in Hong Kong when sort 
of the white shirt thugs go into

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the democracy protesters. 
So is there a danger element for

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you on the ground as a 
journalist there? 

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Yes, to a certain degree. 
I mean, I'm very fortunate in 

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that I haven't seen any violence
in any of the protests that I've

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attended. 
So I arrived around March 21st 

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and that big protest with 
300,000 people happened on March

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15th. 
And then that protest was really

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messed up because the protesters
anticipated that there would be 

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some major provocation by the 
government. 

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And of course, there was a giant
group of masked thugs who went 

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to try to attack the students, 
but they were protected by a 

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combination of Serbian bikers 
and Serbian veterans. 

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So the biker community actually 
provides a lot of security to 

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these student protests. 
But the biker community in 

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Serbia is not the same as it is 
in North America. 

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I mean, a small segment of them 
are associated with crime and 

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drugs. 
But for the most part, these are

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just biker enthusiasts who like 
the sense of family that comes 

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with this. 
They'll have 20,000 bikers meet 

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once a year or a few times a 
year. 

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So these are the guys who are in
their 30s, forties, 50s, 

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masculine Bros who just like 
going throughout the mountains, 

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throughout the countryside. 
And The thing is that many of 

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their kids are in these 
protests, and they've been moved

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by the purity of these protests 
because the protesters have been

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unaffiliated with any of the 
opposition parties, because the 

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opposition parties are corrupt. 
Protesters have been really a 

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polite, really orderly. 
So the biker said, you know 

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what, we believe that this 
protest is different from the 

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previous ones, so we're going to
protect that. 

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So looping back, when those 
hooligans attack, there are 

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people there to intercept them. 
And that's really important. 

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However, the reason why the 
Serbian protests were widely 

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reported on last month is that 
the government used a prohibited

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sound cannon against a crowd of 
protesters. 

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And these protesters weren't 
doing anything violent. 

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They were literally just in the 
middle of a moment of silence to

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commemorate the victims of the 
Novi Sod disaster. 

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So a sound cannon uses 
incredibly loud noise to induce 

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pain, nausea, headaches, and 
that caused a wide panic. 

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And so that infuriated people 
and actually further galvanized 

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the protest movement. 
And I think because of that, the

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butchered government has been a 
bit more careful with what kind 

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of provocations they want to 
engage with because it's pretty 

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clear that the more they attack 
these protesters, the more 

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public support protesters 
receive. 

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And so me coming after March 
15th, I've been a beneficiary of

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that trend. 
That being said, I know that the

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government is organizing a mass 
pro government protest. 

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And the people who are going to 
be there are probably going to 

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be public sector workers who are
told that they're fired if they 

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don't attend, or old Serbians 
who don't have access to 

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anything aside from regime 
propaganda, because the media 

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here is highly censored and I am
concerned about potential 

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violence there. 
Right. 

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So where to from here 
politically? 

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Which its government is 
destabilized or do they have a 

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very strong response? 
And what's on the horizon? 

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Yeah, when you have 300,000 
people on the streets of 

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Belgrade, I really want to 
stress that this is the country 

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of 6.5 million peoples. 
I think right now there is a lot

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of anxiety about where the 
student movement might go. 

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And there's a very real chance, 
but it might be some kind of 

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revolution in Serbia or a regime
change, which would be great 

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because everyone here hates 
Fuchi. 

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But I'm going to give you a bit 
of background. 

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So the students, when they 
started their moving back in 

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November, they said, OK, we're 
not going to be political. 

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We're just going to be against 
corruption as a general concept.

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And we're going to ask that our 
institutions work because we're 

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going to argue that if our 
institutions work, it doesn't 

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matter which government is in 
place. 

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And by not associating with the 
opposition and trying to take a,

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a political approach, they were 
able to build a large coalition 

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of support. 
The supporters of the protest 

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movement include for whatever 
part of Serbian society you're 

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from, you'll support the 
protests because they're against

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corruption. 
To give you another example, you

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know, you have these bikers and 
you even have drag Queens who 

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support the protests like 
everyone. 

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And then they released 4 
demands. 

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And the four demands were 
essentially OK. 

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You need to release the 
procurement documents for the 

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train station. 
You need to drop charges for any

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00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,440
of the students who've been 
arrested so far. 

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00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,080
You need to investigate and 
charge the people who assaulted 

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the student protesters at the 
beginning of this movement. 

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And you need a + 20% increase in
the overall higher education 

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00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:55,880
budget. 
And that seems kind of tacked 

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00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,400
on. 
So all of that is great. 

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But at this point, we're not 
sure where everything is going. 

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So the opposition has said, OK, 
well, we propose the creation of

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00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,240
the interim government of 
technical experts, apolitical 

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00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,600
technocrats who can implement 
reforms over the course of a few

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00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,040
months and eventually allow for 
free and fair elections, which 

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00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,800
he just said that he has sworn 
on his life that that will not 

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00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,280
happen, but he sworn his life on
a whole bunch of other things. 

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00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,360
Was hard to say if that's true, 
but he's very hostile to that. 

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00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,880
So this creates A dilemma. 
The students don't want to get 

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political, so they don't want to
work with any of the opposition 

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00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,040
parties. 
They don't want to create their 

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00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,800
own party right now. 
I've heard some rumors that 

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00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,280
they're planning on it, but as 
of now they haven't done that. 

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So they don't have any Ave. into
the political arena. 

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00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,560
So if an election does happen, 
how are they going to make their

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voices heard? 
What does that look like? 

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Then on top of that, the Serbian
election is supposed to happen 

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00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,000
in 2027. 
So their movement might fizzle 

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00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,120
out by that point. 
But if they press for an interim

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00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,319
government or for early 
elections, and which each 

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00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,760
doesn't want to do that, well, 
what can they do to force them 

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00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,800
to do these things? 
So you have an authoritarian who

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00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,000
doesn't want to step aside, who 
might not want to have an early 

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00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,359
election, who might not want to 
see power to an interim 

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00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,319
government. 
Well, then you create the 

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00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,960
conditions for some kind of 
revolutionary behavior, whatever

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00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,840
that looks like. 
And this is where people debates

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00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,080
about what the future could be. 
Some people believe that the 

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00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,240
students don't have a concrete 
plan and that this will fizzle 

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00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,080
out in the future. 
Some people believe that there's

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00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,640
sufficient public pressure for 
Vucic to accept some kind of 

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00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,880
early election. 
And some people think, well, 

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00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,280
what if this just descends into 
violence in the future? 

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00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,560
We don't know. 
Now I did mention who earlier 

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00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,200
and I want to say here that as 
with any kind of authoritarian 

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00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,000
from the very outs, that's Vucic
and his allies have tried to 

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00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,720
frame this as a color 
revolution. 

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00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:02,640
So since about December, they've
said that the students are 

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00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,240
Western puppets who are 
controlled by them. 

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00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:09,040
They never specify who these 
external actors are. 

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00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,520
And so that narrative has been 
really emphasized in the regime 

335
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,240
controlled media and has also 
been repeated by China and 

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00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,560
Russia. 
And so that also complicates 

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00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,120
things too. 
So if you're an older Serbian or

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00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:26,560
if you're a poor Serbian and 
you're not in a place where you 

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00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,000
can get independent media, all 
you're seeing is this regime 

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00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,040
propaganda that is portraying 
the students as CIA puppets who 

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00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:38,080
are drug users and they're all 
rich kids. 

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00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,640
So that's those are some of the 
main narratives being used. 

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00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,240
And it's really concerning to 
see this kind of information 

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00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,120
warfare and to see how apparatus
of censorship has been 

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00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:52,120
established in a country that 
technically forbids censorship 

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00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:55,400
and its constitution. 
For these older generations that

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00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,080
would only have access to that 
state media, are they completely

348
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,080
on board with that or are they 
having in person coffee house 

349
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,400
conversations where the kids are
all right? 

350
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,520
Or is it completely like a young
generation versus older? 

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00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,480
Older is kind of not buying this
organic protest narrative. 

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00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,120
So for many of these older 
Serbians, I don't think they 

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00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:21,280
fully understand the extent to 
which their information diet has

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00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,680
been controlled by the States. 
However, the students did 

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00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,960
something really intelligent 
back in February that really 

356
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,840
ensured that rural areas 
understood that they are not 

357
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,480
some evil villains. 
So starting around late January,

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00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,720
the students started actually 
marching between different 

359
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,080
cities, started with them going 
from Belgrade to Novi Sad, and 

360
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,280
then they would go to other main
cities. 

361
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,960
And so they would walk day after
day after day for hundreds of 

362
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,760
kilometers, stopping by little 
Serbian villages and Serbians. 

363
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,800
They have a really big 
hospitality culture. 

364
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,160
So you have all these videos of 
the students passing through 

365
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,360
small villages and then out 
would come these old 

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00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:06,520
grandmothers and grandfathers 
who live very difficult lives. 

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00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,000
Serbia is a poor country in 
general, and a rural Serbia is a

368
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,000
very difficult place to live in.
So they have very little. 

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00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,960
And what little they had, they 
would give to the students. 

370
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,400
Food, water, free accommodation.
And so by meeting the students, 

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00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,240
they realized that the students 
were not drug addicts, that they

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00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,720
were not CIA puppets. 
And that helped build broad 

373
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,680
national support for the student
movement. 

374
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,600
Like literally what the students
did is they like walked 

375
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400
throughout the country to engage
with people one-on-one. 

376
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,680
Thanks. 
So, Adam, thanks so much. 

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00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,400
I'll look forward to your 
continuing reports from there 

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00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,480
and in other areas. 
Well, thanks for having me on 

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00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:44,800
the show. 
It's always great to talk with 

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00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,120
you. 
Thanks for listening. 

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00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,760
If you get a chance, please like
and subscribe and rate the show 

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00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,560
on your favorite podcast 
platform. 

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00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,120
Also, if you're interested in 
coming on the show or hosting an

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00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:00,200
episode, e-mail us at 
ca.podcasting@gmail.com. 

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00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,280
I'll have the e-mail and 
California Association website 

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00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,640
in the show notes. 
And now, most importantly, to 

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00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,160
those currently out in the 
field, working with a partner 

388
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,200
nation's people or leadership to
forward US relations, thank you 

389
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,520
all for what you're doing. 
This is Jack, your host. 

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00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,720
Stay tuned for more great 
episodes. 1 California podcast.