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What was the one? 
See a podcast? 

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This is your host Jack gains. 
When CA is a product of the 

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Civil Affairs Association and 
brings in people who are current

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or former military diplomats 
development officers and field 

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agents to discuss their 
experiences on ground for the 

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partner Nations. 
People. 

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And Leadership our goal is to 
inspire anyone interested in 

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working the last three feet of 
foreign relations to contact the

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show. 
Email us at. 

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See a Casting at gmail.com or 
look us up on the Civil Affairs 

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association website at 
www.wrc.org. 

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I'll have those in the show 
notes, Shadow government's, what

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they're doing is they're 
performing governance but what 

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they're providing to the 
resistance or Insurgency is 

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legitimacy. 
Today, we welcome Josh 

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Bedingfield who has studied at 
the Army school of advanced 

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military studies or Sam's. 
I brought Josh in today to talk 

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about his upcoming paper. 
The value proposition of Shadow 

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governments and resistance 
operations which should be out 

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this summer. 
Josh will give us a preview of 

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his findings and discuss how 
they are applied. 

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This is part 1 of 2. 
The second portion will be out 

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next week so let's get started. 
I am I trade. 

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The Baltic. 
Guy is how I would describe 

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myself while doing a lot of work
in the baltics and then a tour 

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where I was focused on the 
entirety of the Yukon aor. 

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Do you bump into the 353? 
Civil Affairs. 

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Command, my had worked with 
them. 

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Personally, there was actually a
353 civil Affairs team in 

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Latvia. 
While I was in Latvia us never 

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to see a team's when used to 
kapok and one 95th while we were

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there. 
Okay, did somebody plan that or 

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is it just they just happen to 
be there because two sides of 

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the coin were thrown in the pond
man? 

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That's a short question. 
I think is a very complex 

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answer. 
You think the G9 of be like I'm 

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bringing an active duty and 
reserve one to Latvia and 

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there's What I need you guys to 
do? 

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Yeah, it wouldn't you'd also 
think there was some delineation

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and responsibilities. 
Oh absolutely and synthesize 

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efforts but that's our job so 
well. 

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And this is the same thing that 
the Marine Corps with their 

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combination of influence and 
messaging. 

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You know, that was one of their 
first frustrations is, how do 

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you get all these individuals 
who've had their own silos for 

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so long work together and it 
almost resulted in torture. 

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I yeah yeah. 
So I think what it is is at some

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point we're going to have to 
just start competing to where 

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people like, if a team lead 
wants to go out in the field and

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they start saying, okay well 
these are the this is the 

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combination that I need in order
to make that happen and I know 

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Jack's a good PA. 
Oh, I know that Andre is a good 

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I/O and I want if they're 
available I want them to come 

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with me and and it goes by name 
so that we're more effective. 

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Yeah. 
Like I would say, Kind of lends 

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itself towards a theory of 
assignment by purpose or 

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assignment by Talent, right 
right. 

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Instead of saying I need the 
insert position here, regardless

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of who is in that position 
because their ruins trained at 

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the same level and capability. 
We need to make sure that the 

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right person is in that 
position. 

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Or if the right person is not in
that position is so nice just to

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be the right person regardless 
of position, right to fulfill a 

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specified function at a given 
time and place. 

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Yeah. 
So about your paper. 

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Do you want to give a big 
picture overview of it? 

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Sure. 
Yeah so you know I'm currently a

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student at the advanced military
studies program at Sam's one of 

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the core outputs of your 
one-year time. 

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Here is a research monograph. 
Sure. 

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So I have started both research 
project that I've done over the 

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last two years. 
The first one at CGS see, sort 

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of War scholar in the second. 
One here is stands by just going

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to the Joint Special Operations.
University Research proposals. 

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Yeah. 
So I found one in there that had

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to do with Shadow government's. 
What is their role? 

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What's their purpose? 
What is our role as Special 

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Operations forces within that 
portion of a resistance? 

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And or I'm going to use a word 
here that I will come back 

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around to or Insurgency 
framework right on my research 

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proposal, kind of looking at 
what our Owners have to say 

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about Shadow governments in 
existing Doctrine and or 

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concepts, right? 
And when I found was Shadow 

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governments are mentioned within
Special Forces Doctrine very 

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minimally. 
There's about four paragraphs of

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text, right? 
We can translate that to about a

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few pages of text. 
We could even say that I'm 

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partially wrong and that I'm 
missing some, but it's still a 

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small amount, right? 
And in multinational Concepts 

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namely the resistance operating 
concept. 

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Offered by Auto fiala. 
He spends considerably more 

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time, talking about Shadow 
governments but I argue he 

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spends that time talking about 
Shadow governments in terms of 

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their relationship to enhancing 
the outcomes of other more 

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common resistance or Insurgency,
structures notably, the gorillas

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underground, an auxiliary. 
So I had to work that way 

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towards understanding exactly 
what we meant when we said 

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Shadow government. 
So, when we go by Doctrine 

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Shadow governments exist, As one
of three forms of what do U s-- 

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Army Doctrine defines as the 
public component of a resistance

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or an Insurgency. 
So the public component can 

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manifest, as either a shadow 
government, a government in 

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Exile, or an internally 
displaced government, the common

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thread of what each of those 
organizations do is that they 

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provision governance, right? 
So if gorillas fire weapons, in 

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order to cause some kind of a 
destructive effect in the 

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auxiliary perform, And 
underground perform various 

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functions like Logistics, and 
intelligence and providing Safe 

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Haven. 
Okay, these forms of government 

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are specifically purposed to 
providing governance in order to

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do two things simultaneously. 
The first thing is to enhance 

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the connection between that 
resistance or Insurgency with an

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existing government, right? 
Right. 

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And to compete for Influence and
legitimacy with the occupying or

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opposing government, okay, and 
speaking a gorilla. 

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So I was thinking, is there a 
difference between proxy 

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networks and Shadow governments?
Is it because they're providing 

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services to the public. 
So, when we say proxy forces 

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where I would draw a clear 
delineation between them and 

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Shadow governments, or even 
internally displaced governments

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or government in Exile, is that 
proxy, invites a rhetoric where 

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those Those conducting the 
activity or doing it on behalf 

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of themselves, right? 
There's an installation or 

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another entity that is 
conducting. 

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Those functions may be similar 
in terms of purpose or output, 

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but to use a metaphor or a 
hypothetical situation. 

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It would be like the United 
States sending United States 

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Personnel. 
That don't necessarily find 

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themselves as a native part of 
that resistance or Insurgency to

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go and perform the Auction of a 
shadow government or government 

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in Exile. 
Perón internally Place 

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government. 
I would be a proxy. 

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Okay, so, and to give an example
of publicly known one would be 

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Wagner sure. 
I mean, as a proxy, whereas in 

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your examples, I think there's 
two good examples. 

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One would be Myanmar and the 
national Unity government. 

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That's the previously democratic
government that's in. 

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Exile. 
So they are what you would say 

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is a shadow government versus 
The military regime that's in 

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power now. 
Yeah. 

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And you know what the second 
would be because you're talking 

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about like a rebel force that is
trying to Curry favor with the 

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population. 
That probably was the farc back 

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when they were still in full 
Revolt. 

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Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

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So the farc had a component that
was what's in, what we would 

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Define it as an Insurgency, and 
they would Define us resistance,

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right? 
Right farting. 

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Ever walked around saying, let's
wait and surgeon. 

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See they said resist right 
whether or not we Define things 

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as a resistance. 
An Insurgency is purely. 

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Based off of perspective. 
One man's Freedom Fighters. 

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Another man's terrorist is it 
kind of like that? 

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Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

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So, yeah. 
And even terrorists finds itself

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an interesting bedfellow here 
with Shadow government's, right?

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Because we would call the 
Taliban terrorists or insurgents

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kind of in the same sentence. 
And they might buy into that for

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messaging purposes, but the 
Taliban had a functioning Shadow

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government Afghanistan for 20 
years. 

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Absolutely. 
And it's interesting how I've 

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seen it with Terror. 
Groups and other insurgents in 

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foreign policy where they're 
trying, they're driving to have 

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some type of legitimacy and the 
United States does not recognize

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them or the host government will
not recognize him the Tamil 

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Target. 
Tigers is one example. 

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Excellent example. 
Yeah, I mean, they fought for 

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legitimacy. 
They had a government, they had 

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they had influence on the 
population but they struggled 

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with recognition and all the way
through until they were finally.

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Finally acquiesced after that 
massive shelling on their 

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population in military, but that
one that one just struck me as 

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you were talking. 
So anyway, I apologize for 

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cutting you off. 
No, it's no problem. 

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You've actually circled back 
around to the root question, 

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what is the research about in 
looking at what we have to say 

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and Multinational concept have 
to say about Shadow governments,

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right? 
We don't say a lot about it. 

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So I said, okay, well, I think 
that they're important. 

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That's my gut feeling was 
inclined to do is just say, hey,

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I need to make an argument about
why. 

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Why the US government needs to 
care about Shadow governments, 

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more notably like are soft. 
Sure, Army Special Operations 

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forces. 
When we talk about supporting 

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disrupting or building 
resistances, we need to care 

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more about it. 
But we don't have enough in 

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there to be able to determine if
that's that juice, is worth the 

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squeeze. 
So, the core research question 

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that came up with this, What is 
the value proposition of a 

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shadow government? 
What are its advantages and 

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disadvantages in terms of a 
resistant structure? 

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What does it provide to a 
resistance that is novel and 

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unique aside from what you get 
in, pretty much any resistance, 

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which almost unilaterally 
includes gorillas and a grounds 

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and auxiliaries? 
What is a shadow government do 

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for you? 
And what you were just talking 

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about is kind of what I found. 
Where the research is that when 

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you're talking about a shadow 
government exercising, 

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governance within the occupied 
territory of, you know, what we 

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might Define as a denied 
environment and old Doctrine, 

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they're in the zone of control 
of an opposition government, 

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right? 
What they're doing is they're 

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performing governance but what 
they're providing to the 

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resistance or Insurgency is 
legitimacy. 

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So, I perform a function itay 
out in terms of an output and 

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what I get back in terms of 
currency is legitimacy. 

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And what I had to do in order to
Define legitimacy because 

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interestingly it's not really 
clearly defined and US military 

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Doctrine. 
Sure is I married up a few 

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things that Doctrine says with a
few researchers. 

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And essentially, when I say 
legitimacy, what I mean is the 

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number of people who support an 
authority, okay? 

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That is the measure of 
legitimacy. 

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So if a resistance has X number 
of gorillas and X number of 

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auxiliary, and X number of 
underground, they have 200,000 

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people. 
Right? 

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That's support that resistance 
either materially or immaterial 

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00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:05,500
E passively right. 
When given a choice they're 

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going to say I'm going to follow
that resistance that they tell 

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me to do something. 
Absolutely intimacy. 

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That's people willfully. 
Obeying that Authority at the 

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expense often of obeying the 
opposition Authority, right? 

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You saw something very similar 
and Burundi with that. 

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Attempted coup back in 2016, I 
believe the ruler is out of 

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country. 
They block the airport and they 

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threw a coup, but they weren't 
able to overthrow the ministry 

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of Defence. 
So when the leader got back in 

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00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,300
country, the ministry of Defence
went after the coup leaders, but

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there's still a heavy support. 
For the opposition. 

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Yeah, let's look at that 
example. 

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So when that was occurring, when
there was this surge of support,

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I would argue we need to look at
that. 

233
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In terms of what the balance of 
legitimacy is, is that you had a

234
00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:01,300
government that was looking at 
the people saying, don't Revolt,

235
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:02,900
right? 
I'm going to Institute a measure

236
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of Martial law. 
I'm going to deploy some of my 

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police. 
I'm gonna deploy some of my 

238
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military. 
I'm going to try and exercise. 

239
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My instruments of power to 
either Either get you to 

240
00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:18,400
willingly not take action or 
compel you into inaction, right?

241
00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:23,700
And on the response you got some
people and it says the curse of 

242
00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:28,700
the information of absence where
we don't really have a good idea

243
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:30,900
of the number of people that 
heard that message from the 

244
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:32,600
government and said all right 
I'm not going to go out and 

245
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protest today like I'm not going
to support it right? 

246
00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:37,400
I will tell you that in is 
definitely more than zero. 

247
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But what you saw is a huge 
number of people who heard that 

248
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:49,000
message and say, hmm, when given
the choice of willfully obeying 

249
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or being coerced into obedience 
by the existing Authority, I'm 

250
00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:56,300
going to choose to obey the 
resistance who is telling me go 

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to the streets, take action 
today. 

252
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That is representation of 
legitimacy of an opposition 

253
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:08,400
power, and you really only get 
that in large returns face. 

254
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,300
My research, if there is a form 
or another of a shadow 

255
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:16,500
government at play. 
So essentially I had a few 

256
00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:21,300
findings, my hypothesis is that 
shadow government formed 

257
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:25,000
governance, and the output of 
governance is legitimacy. 

258
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,800
Yes, which means that the 
function of a shadow government 

259
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,400
is to return to the resistance 
or Insurgency legitimacy. 

260
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,800
And my hypothesis is that as 
Shadow governments increase in 

261
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,800
their efficiency. 
There is a correlative increase 

262
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,500
in two other variables. 
The first variable is the odds 

263
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:45,400
that the resistance is 
successful. 

264
00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:48,300
There's some interesting 
research by a young lady named 

265
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:52,100
chynoweth, who is in her book. 
Why civil resistance Works soon 

266
00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,500
as you get to nonviolent 
resistance that has 3.5 percent 

267
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,300
of the Civil population? 
Supporting you, the odds that 

268
00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:00,800
you are going to be victorious 
Skyrocket. 

269
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,600
There's a noticeable jump and 
the odds that you are successful

270
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:06,700
Genoa. 
That sounds familiar. 

271
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:08,400
Fantastic book. 
Highly. 

272
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,100
That anybody in the Civil 
Affairs Community, why civil 

273
00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,100
resistance works by Erica 
Chenoweth? 

274
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,800
I'll get a link to it. 
I'll Circle back around to you 

275
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,500
because actually, it's two 
people Erica Chenoweth, the 

276
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:24,200
Maria J, Stephen right? 
Okay, okay, so I just took that 

277
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,000
and said, hey, we can take that 
as a general ISM that says you 

278
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,500
can increase your legitimacy, 
which is the number of people to

279
00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:34,100
support you to such a degree 
that the odds that you were 

280
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:38,700
going to be successful approach 
to fit of Absent. 

281
00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:41,700
Some kind of a massive Crackdown
on behalf of the government. 

282
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:47,300
And then, secondly, is that as 
your legitimacy increases, the 

283
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:51,000
odds that there is going to be a
subsequent resistance to your 

284
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,700
Victory, decrease because the 
people are brought into your 

285
00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:57,900
structure, right? 
So I did two case studies on 

286
00:15:57,900 --> 00:15:59,900
this hypothesis. 
I looked at solidarity and 

287
00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:03,800
Poland, which was my nonviolent 
resistance scenario. 

288
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,400
And I looked at the Vietcong in 
Vietnam, essentially after the 

289
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,800
front end, In a war, we would 
Define as the Vietnam War, but 

290
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,300
really looking at 1955, through 
US, termination of involvement, 

291
00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:19,600
right? 
As the violent one, right? 

292
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,600
Because the Vietcong were 
obviously violent, but they also

293
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,000
had a robust Shadow government. 
They did that cities. 

294
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:29,600
Yeah, I mean, we say cities so 
literature. 

295
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,500
Refers to it differently. 
They will call it the Vietcong 

296
00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:32,900
infrastructure. 
Yeah. 

297
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:35,700
The Vietcong Shadow government, 
I even found some authors that 

298
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:38,300
simply just thought that the 
whole thing was an intelligence.

299
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:42,700
Operation. 
But I mean, Morris is research 

300
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,800
on the Vietcong Shadow 
government, they had cells of 

301
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,100
governing authorities that 
reached all the way from Hamlet 

302
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:51,400
to National level that were so 
robust. 

303
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,200
One of her great quotes in her 
book, is that when Saigon fell, 

304
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,200
when the North Vietnamese rolled
into South Vietnam and declared 

305
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,000
Victory, there was this 
immediate transition. 

306
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,800
It was almost imperceptible or 
the shadow government because it

307
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,800
had so much Legitimacy and had 
so deeply ingrained itself into 

308
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,599
the Runnings of the South 
Vietnamese sphere. 

309
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:18,200
It just became the government. 
They just traded hands. 

310
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,900
I just traded hands. 
It just became the government. 

311
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:26,599
And frankly, a similar thing 
happened in solidarity, there's 

312
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,300
a different transience of events
because you have 10 years of 

313
00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:31,600
Martial law or solidarity, is 
pushed into the Shadows. 

314
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,400
But when they finally emerge 
jerez else Keys, martial law 

315
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,300
goes away, and you've got 
perestroika. 

316
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:41,200
Come in and there's this evening
of the playing field of 

317
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,800
solidarity becomes legalized. 
Again, they go to the polls and 

318
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,300
all that legitimacy that they 
built back a decade before that.

319
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:53,300
In 1981, 1982 1983 is just still
there, right? 

320
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,300
Solidarity, gets elected in a 
landslide Victory and nobody 

321
00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:58,500
looks at it side way. 
You're talking about the Polish 

322
00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:00,500
solidarity movement, right? 
Yeah, with luck. 

323
00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:02,000
We'll listen. 
Yeah, yeah. 

324
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,000
So just checking, yeah, 
absolutely, yeah. 

325
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,200
So you look at that and then a 
good kind of check on it is 

326
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:10,700
Okay. 
Well, how do I confirm that? 

327
00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:14,200
That's the good finding and I 
will give you a counter argument

328
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,500
like a straw man to it right? 
Those institutions had good 

329
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:20,500
legitimacy, they had legitimate 
support amongst the population 

330
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,100
and there's no resistance to him
afterwards. 

331
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,900
What is a good example of a 
successful Insurgency, I will 

332
00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:32,000
take the heat on defining it as 
such and the aftermath of this. 

333
00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:35,800
Who did not have good legitimacy
amongst the populace and 

334
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,000
continued to face a resistance 
to their rule? 

335
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:42,200
The Taliban. 
Sure they can walk out of the 

336
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,800
conflict and say we've been 
successful. 

337
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,400
The Taliban Shadow government to
a degree assumes control of the 

338
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,800
Afghanistan government but they 
don't have real legitimacy 

339
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,200
because they've been relying on 
coercive legitimacy to compel 

340
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,300
the population and obedience, 
rather than actually 

341
00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:01,900
establishing good governance 
with them, good strong bond, 

342
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:02,700
right? 
Right. 

343
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,600
And they take control, and they 
immediately had a threat on 

344
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,400
their doorstep because they're 
not perceived as legitimate. 

345
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:09,900
Yeah. 
And that's a tough one. 

346
00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:13,400
That's a tough one to Define. 
Because, in a way, they came in 

347
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,700
with an integrated governance 
system. 

348
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:19,700
So that like you said, they were
able to basically hand over the 

349
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:21,700
keys. 
And they had people at every 

350
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:24,800
level provincial level all the 
way up in the National taking 

351
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,100
positions, but they did it in a 
course of way. 

352
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:32,300
But are they, are they still, 
are they a legitimate? 

353
00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:36,400
Government or are we just 
holding up and we're holding a 

354
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,700
blind eye to it, or are they in 
a little illegitimate 

355
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:41,200
government? 
That is oppressed in this 

356
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,200
population and this is where the
term legitimacy gets a little 

357
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,100
weird. 
So I have to look at it from a 

358
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:51,500
very specific Viewpoint of 
legitimacy when applied to the 

359
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:52,800
population. 
Sure. 

360
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,900
But when we asked a broad 
question, like, is the 

361
00:19:56,900 --> 00:20:02,000
government legitimate We can 
look at that and say, oh well 

362
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,800
let's look at the percentage of 
the population. 

363
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,500
Is that willingly obeys the 
Taliban government, right? 

364
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,800
But when we expand that 
perspective as into a question 

365
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,400
of like is it internationally 
legitimate? 

366
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:16,400
Then we have to come up with a 
totally different framework for 

367
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:16,700
it. 
Right? 

368
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:18,700
Like is it internationally 
recognized? 

369
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:21,800
Do they have allies? 
Do they have treaties well, that

370
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,500
that's an argument. 
You can place on Iran and a 

371
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:28,600
dozen other countries you know 
because that's that's a good 

372
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,700
atmosphere. 
It's hard to Define, it's hard 

373
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:33,100
to Define, which is why I really
tried to stick to it, from a 

374
00:20:33,108 --> 00:20:36,000
perspective of the people, okay?
And what I would argue and I'll 

375
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,600
cite Florian weekend. 
He wrote a great book called 

376
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,500
waiting for dignity legitimacy 
and Authority in Afghanistan. 

377
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:45,600
Took a really great look at how 
the Taliban Shadow government 

378
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,400
executed its functions through 
the conflict. 

379
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,800
And then also, you know, a 
little bit of a look at gyro, 

380
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,600
has actions throughout that bay 
area and the problem on both 

381
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,900
which is a key part of the 
research that I conducted was, 

382
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,700
If we look at it through what 
governments actually is, which I

383
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,400
don't Define the same way that 
the US Army defines it for not 

384
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,600
just the actions of the 
government first and foremost, 

385
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,100
my own little Insurgency, it 
just baffles me. 

386
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,800
Can I strongly encourage that we
as a profession actively work 

387
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,400
toward directly acknowledging. 
That governance is not the 

388
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,700
function of governments alone. 
There are systems of authority, 

389
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,700
all around that have nothing to 
do with governments that shape 

390
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:29,400
our daily lives, right? 
Through. 

391
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,600
So we have to find a way to say 
what governance is without just 

392
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,700
saying it's things that 
governments do. 

393
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:40,000
If we do that, I'm a big fan of 
Morgan key and Selma magnussen's

394
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,800
theory on the social contract 
theory. 

395
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,300
And they say essentially 
governance boils down to re 

396
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:49,000
lines of effort you have shared 
values performance and services 

397
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,200
of systems of exchange, right? 
So instead of categorizing it by

398
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,800
a type of action of actor, they 
categorize it by the types of 

399
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,700
actions of An actor and they 
say, hey, this is how you get 

400
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:06,500
Authority, you build systems of 
exchange you provision services 

401
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:10,800
and performance. 
And you do so by demonstrating, 

402
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,800
shared values with those who are
being governed and if you do 

403
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,400
that, well, they're going to 
give you a Jetta mahseer. 

404
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,600
Going to choose to buy into this
system. 

405
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,400
This contract that you have put 
forward with them and what gyro 

406
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:26,700
and the Taliban Shadow 
government didn't do very well 

407
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,700
was demonstrate shared values. 
Okay, and they covered up poor 

408
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:35,500
metrics of performance and 
really didn't have good systems 

409
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:37,600
of exchange. 
I mean I was in Afghanistan it's

410
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,200
a platoon leader back in 2011 
and a little tiny District 

411
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,100
Center just south of Bagram. 
And you know it's this little 

412
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:48,600
village and there's Hills all 
around them and they don't look 

413
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,200
up like we do in America. 
I look up and I see him salmon 

414
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,500
the clouds, right? 
Like the federal government is a

415
00:22:53,508 --> 00:22:56,800
part of my daily life. 
The state government is a part 

416
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,900
of my daily life. 
I interact with Their various 

417
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:02,900
means and mechanisms as a part 
of the way that we are 

418
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:04,500
structured. 
They don't do that in 

419
00:23:04,508 --> 00:23:07,800
Afghanistan. 
A local Village looks at their 

420
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,400
elders and they look at the 
systems of power that actually 

421
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,200
shape how they go about their 
lives. 

422
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,300
And so, a purely democratic form
of government where there's this

423
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:20,000
representative democracy with 
these Representatives, you know,

424
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,600
speaking on behalf of tribes 
that they don't actually Geo 

425
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,700
locate themselves. 
With is actually great ties with

426
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:28,800
about why the Vietnamese Shadow 
government by the Viet Cong. 

427
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:30,400
Shadow government was 
successful. 

428
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,300
Similar values out there and 
where the South Vietnamese 

429
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:38,100
government was trying to build 
this prong Western facing 

430
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:41,300
democracy. 
The Vietcong were saying, hey I 

431
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:43,700
understand that you guys are 
much more focused at the Hamlet 

432
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,900
and town level hyper, local 
forms of governance and that's 

433
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:48,300
where I'm going to be. 
Yeah. 

434
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,600
So you might have had a South 
Vietnamese government actor. 

435
00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:55,200
That was governing a large area 
but the people in the hamlets 

436
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,800
didn't see that, they didn't 
have a system of exchange with 

437
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,000
it. 
There was Way to build shared 

438
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,800
values there, that's how the 
Taliban were trying to influence

439
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,500
as well as to reach out 
underneath the provincial 

440
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:11,200
governance and go into these 
Villages and work with the 

441
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,800
elders in order to get support 
right, Bri wholeheartedly. 

442
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,500
As long as we Define the word 
work in that sentence as coerce,

443
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:20,100
right? 
Right violently coerce, there 

444
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:23,100
were times where they were just 
out there paying off at for 

445
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:25,900
influence and there are other 
times where it was agreements 

446
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:29,900
on, keeping a mosque open, or 
allowing, In public weddings. 

447
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,600
So it wasn't always at the 
barrel of a gun or at a thread. 

448
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,500
Sometimes it was trying to get 
collaboration with the local 

449
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:42,000
population if they could sure if
they couldn't, then they got 

450
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,200
into coercion. 
Let's say that the overriding 

451
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,500
majority of the time. 
Yeah yeah. 

452
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:46,600
That's a great way to put it, 
right? 

453
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,400
Like if there was an easy way to
do it. 

454
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,300
Then yeah, we're going to get 
legitimate. 

455
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,700
We're going to get actual shared
values or a system built on 

456
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:55,700
actual shared values. 
But if I don't get it that I'm 

457
00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:58,200
not, I'm not above, you know, a 
night letter, right? 

458
00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:01,000
Or Shooting your your father or 
something, right? 

459
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,300
And that's why the u.s. is 
counter Taliban influence 

460
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:08,600
program focused on having people
on the ground doing 

461
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,700
atmospherics. 
And then when a local Elder was 

462
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:16,100
in contact with the Taliban and 
they were saying, oh yeah we'll 

463
00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:18,900
leave your moderate. 
Mosque open or will allow you to

464
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:22,700
have Sports Plus females can 
have sports to, we would find 

465
00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:25,200
out from other atmospheric said,
no they had shut that down in 

466
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,600
other towns and we would get 
those reports to that. 

467
00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:31,300
Village Elder. 
So they knew what was going on 

468
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,000
around them and that would give 
them more power to say. 

469
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,900
Well you're already shutting 
people down here and there so I 

470
00:25:36,908 --> 00:25:38,400
don't trust you. 
Sure. 

471
00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:42,600
And that was in hopes of then 
building reasonable police for 

472
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,600
security around that Village 
support of state with governance

473
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,600
and aid for development. 
I never felt like the counter 

474
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,300
Taliban program coalesce that 
well. 

475
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,800
Yeah, and again not to trip on 
it a lot but there's another 

476
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,700
great parallel with what the 
This military's approach to 

477
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:03,600
combating the Vietcong Shadow 
government was right in 

478
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,100
Afghanistan the program. 
You just mentioned, I would add 

479
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:10,000
to it, you had the vso program 
and then the contrast that in 

480
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,000
the Vietnam War was the Phoenix 
chords program, right? 

481
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,600
Which is same Dual Purpose 
Phoenix, which was admittedly 

482
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,700
kill capture, very enemy 
Centric. 

483
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:23,600
I'm going to remove the 
Personnel that are performing 

484
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,500
this function by either a killer
capture method, that's Phoenix. 

485
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,900
And then chords Was there anti 
governance approach and this is 

486
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:35,800
where again, our Doctrine 
really, there's a gap in it. 

487
00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:41,100
When we say that governments is 
the activities of a government. 

488
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:45,200
Then when we say, you know, 
hypothetically speaking were 

489
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,500
conducting governance activities
or transitional governance which

490
00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:50,700
is the the recently updated 3-5 
7. 

491
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:56,400
Then we're saying that when we 
are conducting an operation in 

492
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,500
line with governance, we're 
doing is strengthening Stunning.

493
00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:03,300
The activities of the government
were building resilient 

494
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:06,900
structures within them or making
them perform better and some way

495
00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:08,200
shape or form. 
Sure. 

496
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,100
But what we just talked about 
it's two great examples where we

497
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,500
applied military and to a degree
whole-of-government approach, 

498
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,100
but we did it to weaken a form 
of governance. 

499
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,800
Yes, it wasn't. 
I'm not going to say that there 

500
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,400
wasn't a purpose in Vietnam to 
strengthen the South Vietnamese 

501
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,800
government will say that those 
programs in Afghanistan weren't 

502
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,000
meant to strengthen. 
Earthen gyro up but there was a 

503
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,500
purpose with them to weaken the 
opposition Shadow government. 

504
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:39,400
Sure, break down those 
structures reorient the people 

505
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,400
away from them toward the 
structures we need them to be 

506
00:27:42,408 --> 00:27:45,000
bought into and that's counter 
government. 

507
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,600
That's an activity that is 
purposed toward breaking 

508
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,700
governments and again if we 
don't have a good framework 

509
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:57,100
which I argue we don't on what 
governance actually is then it 

510
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,600
becomes very difficult to 
qualify what Likely governance 

511
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,800
has a governance activity is or 
operation or a counter 

512
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,300
governance operation. 
Then we just have to say big 

513
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,200
things like strengthen 
government. 

514
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,500
I very much agree with you 
because what I saw was mirroring

515
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:19,000
where we just in place the u.s. 
style judicial system or we in 

516
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,800
placed a parliamentary system 
but we didn't really look at how

517
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,400
we can reinforce the local 
community. 

518
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,700
Local leader, governance. 
Those networks that were already

519
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:35,400
naturally there. 
We didn't reinforce those into 

520
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,200
something that would be a 
national government. 

521
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:42,400
We just we just imposed style 
that we thought would fit and 

522
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:48,000
I'll be honest, a Greco-Roman 
judicial system was already 

523
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,500
tried by the Greeks and the 
Romans and it didn't work so I'm

524
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,800
not really sure why we're trying
the same thing over. 

525
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,100
That sounds kind of like trying 
to repeat the same thing over 

526
00:28:57,100 --> 00:29:00,300
and over to find a new solution.
This is another reason why I 

527
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:03,900
really like K and magnussen's 
theory on social contract. 

528
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:07,000
Because what it says is, you 
could theoretically have great 

529
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,200
systems of exchange and really 
Stellar performance and services

530
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,900
metrics, but if it's not built 
on shared values, right? 

531
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,900
You're a fraud. 
It's just increasingly becoming 

532
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:24,500
simpler to determine for, at 
least question the motives that 

533
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:32,500
were presented. 
That's part one of two will see 

534
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:35,100
Josh next week where he'll 
finish this discussion on the 

535
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:36,600
value? 
Proposition of Shadow 

536
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,000
governments. 
Thanks for listening. 

537
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,600
If you get a chance, please like
And subscribe, and rate the show

538
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:44,500
on your favorite podcast 
platform. 

539
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,800
Also, if you're interested in 
coming on the show, or hosting 

540
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,700
an episode, email us at, see, a 
podcasting at gmail.com, I'll 

541
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,500
have the email and see a 
association website in the show 

542
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:58,400
notes. 
It's and now most importantly to

543
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,400
those currently out in the field
working with a partner Nations 

544
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,200
people or leadership to forward 
us relations. 

545
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:06,100
Thank you all for what you're 
doing. 

546
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,700
This is Jack, your host stay 
tuned for more great episodes 

547
00:30:11,400 --> 00:29:58,700
once the a podcast It's and now 
most importantly to those 

548
00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:01,400
currently out in the field 
working with a partner Nations 

549
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,200
people or leadership to forward 
us relations. 

550
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:06,100
Thank you all for what you're 
doing. 

551
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,700
This is Jack, your host stay 
tuned for more great episodes 

552
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:12,600
once the a podcast