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It's cool to like your job. And the really valuable thing.
I think, is it goes team pulled, all the NPC's information,
related capabilities Eliseo, CTS, and planners into a single
team, with a team leader that has direct line.
And TC senior leaders the same as every other team.
Leader out there, All of the live, the Italian team to this
couple other types of proteins. We have out here and there's
information capabilities, like civil Affairs and psyops, just
didn't have that exposure in place prior to go steam.
So I think it's been a really positive step.
Hi. And welcome to the one seed pod
cast. My name is John Miguel.
Get your host for today's episode and our guest today is
Major John Burns. He's the Civil military
operations, trainer, and operations, officer for ghost
team at the National Training Center.
The previous civil Affairs assignments for major Burns
include serving as the G9 of the 13th expeditionary.
Sustainment command, at Fort Hood.
Texas Commander Echo company at the 83rd civil Affairs
Battalion. See mock chief for the Echo
company at 83rd, see a battalion team Chief Fork at 2:53 in Bravo
Company, 97, see a battalion and assistant operations officer for
the 92nd civil Affairs. Battalion His see it
appointments include the Sim. See the Civil monetary support
element Cambodia and supporting us Pacific Fleet in Pacific
partnership, 2017. 2018, major Burns.
Welcome the show. Hey, thanks for having me, John.
It's really great to be here. I've been a longtime listener,
the one, see a podcast, and I'm finally really happy to be here
to help contribute to the overall discussion.
Well, thank you for your time and I understand your between
rotations. We're going to talk a lot about
what happens at NTC. But can you briefly tell people
now that you're in between these rotations?
How many rotations you guys have a year and how long they
normally last? Yeah so a rotation at the
National Training Center is 14 training days.
I think that's important to note that those does not mean you're
only here for 14 days, there's RSO and I so your reception
staging onward movement, integration phase that happens
and while we as OCT is really count about five of those days.
For most units here, that can be up to two even three weeks if
you come on torture at Vaughan. And then you've got to get ready
to leave too. It's not like when we call
endex, everybody just packs up their tanks and weapons and goes
off into the sunset. So it's a process.
You have to both build combat power in the way in fight.
Right. When and then you've got a,
you've got to get all that combat power back out just like
you would in a real deployment and the overall number of
rotations a year right now Now anywhere from eight to ten
rotations per year and in the coming fiscal years, okay?
I'm wondering if you could frame for listeners.
What the National Training Center is all about.
If you could go back to the beginning, when it all started
and what does the army use the NTC for today?
Yeah, it's a great question. So Fort Irwin started as an
anti-aircraft range back in the 1940s in support of training for
World War 2 and this training ground.
Just south of Death Valley, California is adapt with every
major conflict since then, and October 1980.
The department of the army doesn't need for Irwin, is a
National Training Center. In an October 1981.
The first maneuver Battalion arrived to test its metal, no
pun intended. For those, we get the joke for
over 40 years and 400 rotation. Ins are 1200 square.
Mile training area, known as the box has prepared maneuver
elements for the rigors of combat, it puts soldiers in
units through a crucible experience.
I think that's really important. This is the toughest trainer to
get in the army preparing you for combat and that Crucible
experience will expose weakness but the same time provide the
coaching and opportunities to work to overcome that and in
that in that way, in this, you know, might sound a little
patronizing, but it's not just a National Training Center but
it's also a National Treasure. It's something a lot of other
militaries don't have and it really does give us an advantage
to getting you to practice. Combined arms maneuver.
And now I say you know, combined-arms not just in our
traditional arms but combined arms the information space as
well, right here, at before unit has to deploy.
That's a big deal and we're going to get into those details
about combined arms. And and what you guys do when
the ghost team, I'm wondering, if you could talk about the the
acronym OCT. Over Coach trainer.
What that means and how they're divided into teams.
Maybe frame it for people who have never been to an TC of
never come across an OCT. So the ACT is you already
defined, it's an observer coach and trainer and they're really
the keys to successful training here at the National Training
Center. OCT is responsible for
partnering with a rotational unit from the platoon to the
Brigade level, they observe the unit's operation throughout
their time here at the National Training Center, Notes on the
progress of the mission and guide and coaches needed.
And of course, ultimately we also act as safeties because
nobody should die here at the National Training Center.
It is training and we want to make sure you have the safest
training. See if it's training iteration
possible OCT. S I want to leave you kind of is
OCT, s our partners. So sometimes units will come and
they'll look at us with our God Guns and you know, our act
uniform and they almost look at us like we're some sort of
adversary that they have to fight.
Yeah. R, not the adversary.
We're here to partner with you, black horse, our professional up
for their the adversary. So, just remember, when you get
here, OCT s are your partner. We're here to train you and we
want to be successful with you. OCT is are assigned based on
their experience and training and are tasked with improving
the rotational unit through coaching.
And there's three thoughtful Arc, you'll get throughout the
rotation. And then at the end overall,
it's a really fulfilling job, OCT s watching its progress and
individuals. Row and really some of the most
grueling scenarios. The Army can throw at a unit at
least from a collective training perspective and we do the
side-by-side rotation after rotation, right?
When your unit is out there in the Box, our OC teaser out there
with you, you have constant coverage and so you really do
start to get a lot out of watching the arch.
You grow because everybody grows at the National Training Center,
and I like to think of OCT s is really the beating hearts of
those teams that train. And then the National Training
Center itself. I've been there three times.
It works really really well. It's a well-oiled machine and
it's great to see the oct, s the various teams including ghost,
the coordination that has to happen amongst the oct succumb
over, because its operations are going on at times 24 hours a day
and you guys need a rest too. And it's really fascinating to
see that the coordination, like, hey, I've got to go back to pick
up supplies or whatever. Somebody else going to cover you
and watch your operations to the next six to eight or 12 hours.
And if you have questions as rotational training, unit OCT is
a really, really helpful in going through and guiding you on
on the see a perspective and IO obviously, in sigh up about how
you're going to meet your training objectives and guiding
you along the way. Letting you fail at times which
is really, really good. And that's what I want to do in
a safe environment but yeah, I can emphasize everything you
just talked about Major Burns. One of the things that you
mentioned is the god gun. So people who have not been
there. What are you referring to?
Yeah, so the god gun, it's for most of us we carry this pistol,
but it's blue doesn't shit real bullets, it shoots lasers.
And as many of us do know, but if you haven't been to the
National Training Center or another Combat Training Center,
we have this system called miles and it's essentially a giant
laser tag, right? A lot of us played laser tag is
kids or, you know, some of Have kids play laser tag.
Well, this is a really Advanced system of laser tag, but the god
gun is, the oct is ability to help adjudicate kills near
misses or bring people back to life in that laser tag game.
And so it's kind of a mark of OCT s when you've got your gut
gun. It's something that when the rtu
sees it they know what it's all about.
But again, I don't want you to make.
I don't want to make you feel like or the listeners feel like
we're the Bad Guys. Most the time when OCT uses that
God. Gun.
It's actually for resurrect, right?
Because after your if you are to be killed in that giant laser
tag game. Bye bye.
Black horse. We need to reset that system.
And so that God gun doesn't only give us the ability to
adjudicate a kill, but it also gives us the ability to reset
that system bring you back to life so you can continue
training. That's good point.
So let's talk now about the ghost team, Great Name, by the
way. Awesome, awesome.
Name, great logo. How did that come about?
How did this Evolution from these other teams?
Because Come ghost. Yes, who first let's let's start
at the beginning of where we even get her name from so ghost.
Team is named after the 23rd headquarters, Special Troops
activated in January, of 1944, as a unit meant to deceive.
The Germans as the Allies move back onto the European
continent. The ghost Army is the unit was
called employed artists. Actors admin Architects and
Engineers people who could think outside the box to achieve the
mission. Often they use tools such as
inflatable tanks and sound trucks.
Theater-quality sets to create illusions of a sizable Army
element in order to distract the Germans from the main effort
over and over again. They got inside the Germans
decision-making cycle by just, never allowing them to
completely understand what u.s. and Allied plans are going to
be. So that's where we got our
heritage from but fast forward to more recent history.
So when my previous boss Lieutenant Colonel, Christopher
Wilson a really talented. Today officer arrived at NTC in
July 20 2010. He sat down with then curdled
now Brigadier General Mike simmering, the commander of
operations group. At the time, they discuss the
option of creating an information operations team and
breaking up the old Paradigm of having, see a psyop cyber
electromagnetic activities, public affairs, as well as space
split among various other Critter teams here at the
National Training Center. And instead moving them into a
single team that would focus on information operations.
It's really an unprecedented move.
Nobody else did this at the time and to this day nobody else has
done it yet. But ntc's leadership understood
that Modern Warfare called for a change and the NTC was going to
lead that change. That is how ghost team was born.
Just a few months later after that conversation, by September
of 2020, ghost logos were painted on the side of Humvees
and Lieutenant Colonel Wilson led a group of those CTS on a
pretty cool. Experiment, it is unique to this
training center here, in the Mojave Desert That's really,
really cool. And shout out to he's gonna love
this, but Sergeant First Class Gianluca who was, I've had the
fortunate experience of training with him, in the 49 to see a
battalion. He got to go out there as an OCT
and again, plug in for people listening to volunteer to do
that. But was fortunate to be a part
of this goat seem Evolution. And saw the value of it makes
total sense within used to kapok where I'm serving.
We have see a psyop an IO in the same command, a lot of that.
And the first Special Forces command.
So, I'm glad this the step was taken.
Can you tell already major Burns?
Whether ghost team has been a positive step forward for NTC?
Yeah, absolutely. But first, let me go back to the
guy. You just talked about certainly
key so I did not know him as an OCT.
I got here slightly after he left, he was one of the early
OCT Suncoast team but I do know him as nrt you returning to the
National Training Center after spending.
Ting time, I go Steam and I will tell you it was clear based on
his maturity is experience that he had picked up a lot as a oct
here at the National Training Center.
So yeah absolutely awesome. And you know I want to talk more
about possibility of coming the National Training Center is an
OCT later because I think it's a really great opportunity but you
know back to your question, has ghost team in a positive step
for in TC and really the Army and I think unquestionably yes
right. If I could yell This microphone,
which I'm not going to do. I would yell.
Yes. But I guess team, why, why is it
positive step? Well, there's a lot of reasons I
could go on for days about it. We're not going to because you
have a limited time but ghost team at its core tests, the
rotational unit by making them compete.
In a contested information, environment and information
operations to include information related
capabilities, like civil Affairs at psyops, has always been a key
element to victory in any conflict, but we're ensuring
ghost team is ensuring that the Anil unit cannot ignore it.
Now both by doing exercise control, providing some higher
headquarters control and also providing those OCT s who will
Coach you know ultimately towards Victory here in the
Mojave goes team, makes it information environment matter.
To commanders and staff said, Echelon prior to the team.
Everyone at NTC. And sigh up pa0, civil Affairs,
Seema space and IO did great work, it just wasn't
synchronized as well. Resource by a single entity who
had the role of essentially an information coordinator for the
commander of operations group goes team brought that by
creating ghost team were able to quickly change the way we train
to achieve information, advantage, in alignment, with
the Cog and the NTC, commanding generals vision.
And the really valuable thing. I think is it goes, team pulled.
All the NPC's information related capabilities.
They Co CTS and planners into a single team with a team leader
that has a direct line and TC senior leaders the same as every
other team. Leader out there, All of the
line Battalion teams and there's a couple other types of Critter
teams we have out here. And there's information
capabilities, like civil Affairs and psyops, just didn't have
that exposure influence prior to go steam.
So I think it's been a really positive step.
Good, good. And I think, whenever I say
something you talked about, which is ensuring that the
rotational unit, the Brigade really, and it's battalions that
are being tested. Cannot ignore these information,
related capabilities or pieces of them.
That's something that was certainly a big knock on
rotations, the is where the emphasis is really been on these
Brigade, combat teams coming through coming through and
rightly, so should be, but these so-called enablers, that would
be there. Like, yeah, we that's not really
our thing. We don't care so much about
that, just, you know, provide security on the perimeter of
what we have going on, but having this integrated better
into the scenario is really big deal.
So that's a lot of progress you've made, but would you say
that there are many refinements or continued improvements that
you're still making a ghost and what would you say they are.
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
So we're never going to get it right ever, you know, 100%.
So we're always growing. This is one of the reasons why
I'm actually kind of excited about the team and the role I
get to play on the team. So, as we look and we're still
the newest team in the desert, about two years, we've just hit
our stride, and we continue to improve every rotation when we
find some success in training, you know, training the rtu to
compete in the information environment.
We try not to just stop and kind of rest on our Laurels.
We bring In adjacent teams the Ops group Staff, Black Horse,
which is again our world-class opfor and we ask everyone, how
do we bring even more value to the training next rotation,
people get excited and training does get better.
I mean, we just did this a couple of days ago.
We probably had 30 people only about ten of whom were from go
steam sitting in a room. Saying, how do we make
information operations better here at the National Training
Center? Why do we how do we make it have
more? Meaning not just to the enablers
as you say and I do Is that term in a derogatory way?
Because we are enabling to be easy to do their mission.
But how do we make it matter? For the BCT even more?
You know, one example I can point to is the strides we've
made. Sorry, the strides we've made
with training for operations that consolidation area people
who came to NPC two or three years ago, probably went through
some sort of lanes training, right?
We're civil Affairs, teams or psyops, you know, you do your
you do your lane walking through the village, would probably be
an ambush set. It up.
Everybody have to react to contact.
You do a ceilidh, these things were all just kind of, you know,
go do the lane get done, will hot wash it afterwards and then,
you know, everybody just resets or we'll do it again tomorrow.
Yeah, teams don't just go through pre-planned scenarios
like that anymore. That happened the same time or
the same way for every team. Every day.
We have started going towards providing a more realistic and
relevant training program. While the Brigade goes to live
fire, the sea Affairs company forms, a civil Affairs, task
force, and if you dig into the new 3-5 7, you'll see.
That's a doctrinal organization under that.
Task force is the see a company. We add the psyops attachment,
oftentimes, pull in unit, legal teams, unit Ministry teams and
as available electronic warfare. See, get elements in any other
enablers that want to get on this training and we create a
scenario very much related to what they've been experienced
previously in force on Force. Yeah, but it focuses on
establishing civil security and facilitating civil control in
this consolidation area, just to the rear for the brigades, doing
the live fire decisions ranging for a task organization to the
actions of teams individuals. Now, reverberate in a dynamic
information environment which challenges the task force to
rapidly analyze, the Civil component of the environment,
develop courses of action, to address instability.
And ultimately, you know, to ensure the bcts freedom of
maneuver, I want to point out. No team goes through the same.
I'm Lane during this training and then the information they
gather through civil engagement, simple Network, development and
engagement that information goes back to the Sea mock who then
has to analyze it, do civil knowledge integration and then
figure out how to approach that problem over the next couple of
days. Which that's pretty unique.
Not a lot of people do that and I think it's kind of a unique
challenging training experience that we provide here at the
National Training Center. That sounds really cool.
Big improvement over those lanes that were happening before and
really great to hear that. You can't just pass along the
notes. The next team going through the
lane thinking of just give me the same thing for you guys.
Get ready for this Ambush on the left side of whatever that it
builds on itself. And that's exactly the kind of
stuff to go through when you qualify and see as well, what
we'll take a short break and we'll come back and continue.
Our conversation with Major John Burns.
He's the senior civil military operations, trainer and Ops
officer for ghost team at the National Training Center.
Enter, we'll be right back. Everywhere.
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welcome back to the one. See if podcast, Our Guest today
is Major John Burns. He's with ghost team at the
National Training Center, and the first half of the show, we
talked a lot about background of NTC.
What OCT s Observer? Coaches trainers.
Do the history of ghosts. Team going back to 2020 and how
its evolved. Since then, I want to focus now
on the ca teams and companies that go through rotations, some
listeners may have dissipated in rotations myself.
I went through three of them and some were heavy on stability
operations. Now, we've gone through and
we're focusing more on near-peer competition.
We're certainly focused on scenarios that are built toward
Russia and China and North Korea.
What would you say is the flavor of NTC rotations today and how
do you see civil Affairs? Providing value to maneuver
battalions and brigades who were the main focus of NTC rotations.
Yeah, I love this discussion and it's another one where we could
go on for hours and days. So I'll, I'll cut myself short.
If I start babbling, you please cut me short, but I'm pretty
passionate about this stuff so at NTC right now, the bottom
line is we're focused on training brigades to win in
large-scale combat operations right?
You know the mission our Commanding General gives us is
to train the rotational training unit to win, the first battle of
the next war and we think that's Going to be large-scale combat
operations. There is obvious differences
between lascaux the acronym for large-scale combat operations.
And what many of us grew up training for and executing with
counterinsurgency operations which was stability, heavy, even
more. So the Civil Affairs regiment
because many of us were out doing phase zero type of
operations outside of conflict zones all throughout the world.
So there's a bit of a learning curve here that we all have to
get used to including myself. Yes.
But it's important to remember that we can't throw away the
lessons that we learned whether it's in coin or in those phase 0
operations, brigades must consolidate gains in their area
of operation. And that requires a certain
amount of Acumen for stability operations.
And when that area of operations includes population centers,
civil Affairs has a responsibility to consolidate
gains around those areas that doesn't start after those
population centers. Are seized either, we need to
get ahead of that challenge and incorporate it as a sequence.
I plan to any operation, we really here, stress civil
Network development, civil Network engagement and simple
knowledge integration from day, one of our.
So and I we encourage civil Affairs forces to go be the eyes
and ears of the Brigade and it's in the Civil component in order
to identify civil, networks and gain information, that can be
used to enhance the Commander's decision making process enable
better command and control over all and inform the brigade's
other War fighting functions, you know?
Here at NTC there to population centers.
Well, within 10 kilometers of Ellis, a Santa Fe, which is the
LSA, the every Brigade executes, RSO.
And I out of the people who live in those towns, have relatives
and Associates throughout the box, right, that training area
that you're about to go fight in.
But it's surprising how few units, work to get out to those
places and try to identify useful networks to enable the
brigades operations and then integrate that knowledge into
the brigades plans and targeting.
But it can all be done during our so and I or at least as soon
as we get the role players in which is usually about day three
of our. So and I we have to note that
list go also throw some wrinkles into civil Affairs operations,
that coin usually didn't her not to the same degree.
Few of us have operated on the hyper violent and fast paced
Battlefield that we're going to face large-scale combat
operations. And this is where we have to
start really focusing. Commanders will value our
contributions when we are Mitigating risk and civil
friction for them on the battlefield.
We're survival is genuinely hard, we as a regiment cannot be
anchor. Slowing down the fight are
maneuver brothers and sisters will cut us loose because they
can't afford to be slowed down. Instead we need to get used to
being integrated early with the planning process if our see
mocks and our cats are integrated with their supported
organizations from Reseda mission on.
It's going to be difficult to catch up and commanders are not
going to be waiting for us. So then that leads Having to
understand where the Civil environment is going to cause
friction for our commanders plan and work hard to mitigate it,
that might be internally displaced.
People, flowing across the four line of troops.
They could disrupt maneuver or it might be executing active.
Populous control measures in urban areas, the separate
civilians for military forces so that we can regenerate combat
power. After a hard one fight, you
can't be reactive at those situations, especially not in
large-scale combat. And operations, the plan must be
made resource and have defined triggers before the maneuver
Force. Ever crosses, a lot of departure
then it needs to be monitored and adjusted as a conditions on
the ground change. I think when we can get to do
that as a force regardless of what part of the Civil Affairs
regiment were talking about, then we're going to be valued
members of any team, whether it's a brigade combat team in
division or some higher Echelon. Yeah, major Burns.
I thats great points. Large-scale combat operations is
going to be dirty. Very, very dirty and I just went
through some CLS course again. And what they're talking about,
just for the medical aspect is prepare to operate independently
and on our own for multiple days of time, maybe upwards of a week
to try to figure out what are all the medical requirements
that you would need to self-sustain.
Keep people alive without getting them to roll 2.
And so on the same thing would probably happen to civil Affairs
and different IRC soldiers and Troops.
So yeah that's a big deal. Great point about using that
time during our so nigh to get out to those towns and talk to
civilians that requires a lot. A lot of preparation and
sharing, you can actually shoot move and communicate during that
time separate from the Italian word Brigade or coordinating
with them. But where you're going and why
you're doing it. But yeah, absolutely.
If units rotating through to take advantage of that time then
there will be a lot more successful than normal.
And wondering if you could frame for listeners who are preparing
to go to Auntie, see what success may look like because
you're not going to go to this massive training environment and
think that you're going to solve all the problems for these
civilians who were role players living in these towns.
That's not the point of it. It's to exercise your systems
and processes and make mistakes and learn from them as quickly
as you can. I guess my question is, what do
you think? See a soldier who's going to
come in for the first time and think man, I need to solve that
water problem for this local person or I need to get them
food. I need to get them humanitarian
Aid and get them out of the area, it's not for them, right?
It's for the maneuver Battalion and maneuver Brigade for
whatever their desired end state is.
But what does success look like for you and your guidance to
these are to use Yeah. Great absolutely great question.
Because the nice thing about ghost team is not only a Rios
ETS, but we design the part of the scenario in which the RT
will fight in the information environment.
And so I know what we're looking for because, you know, our team
is the one who kind of sets those measures.
And first and foremost, let me say you're right, we're War
Fighters and the Civil Affairs, regiment, we're not
humanitarians, right? That's not our job.
We're not usaid or not non-government organizations,
we're here. Here to fight and win our
nation's Wars. And we do that by shaping, it
influencing the Civil component, the operating environment.
So yeah, do I want that civilian to have the resources, they need
to survive. I do.
But ultimately, the reason I want that is because if they're
being taken care of right, whether we're doing it through
some sort of transitional, governance, we're leveraging
non-government organizations or other government agencies, to
bring in relief that helps bring stability, E to the immediate
rear of the Brigade. And then, it allows the keep the
Brigade moving. It keeps her lines of
communication open and keep supplies flowing.
It keeps the guns pointed towards the flot, and not back
into an area, they've already cleared.
And that's that's what we're trying to get and you're right.
Nobody comes here and is successful right off.
I would tell you, if you put me back in my company, Commander,
bill it and I deployed my company here to the National
Training Center, knowing everything.
I know after having been here. Here, you little over a year and
having helped lead this team. I would still struggle.
My company would still struggle to be successful except
especially very early on because ntc's, just hard.
But at the end of the day, whether you're a brand new civil
Affairs specialist through the company Commander, you really
have to start judging success by how well you're enabling that
Brigade combat team to keep pushing forward and not have to
deal with civil friction in the rear area.
Yeah, that's a good point that you don't want the maneuver
Brigade commander and staff or orthos battalions feel like man
to see a guy's just clean up this rear then we can move
forward but we're being held back and occasionally.
That happens to force at times to force those maneuver
commanders to take note of what's happening in their
consolidation area and to clean it up.
Part of the integration that happens is occasionally with the
active and Reserve component CA units that go through.
So do you see that those Campos work together at NTC and why?
Or why not? Yes.
And and I'm pretty excited about this because just the day before
this recording, Special Operations in conventional civil
Affairs. Forces work, side-by-side.
Executing transitional governance activities in a town
in the Box. Why?
Well, the specifics of that very specific operation don't
necessarily matter. But in general, it's because the
different flavors of civil Affairs.
The different components bring slightly different Sets and
possess different attributes of authorities.
And oftentimes those defining characteristics complement each
other. To create, a more optimized
solution to the Civil challenges were going to face on the modern
Battlefield. We Embrace that here at the
National Training Center, we don't ignore it.
We designed the rotation that when softened conventional for
civil Affairs are both on the ground.
There's ample opportunity, not only to interact, but to enhance
effects and working together, that is to say that the scenario
is Designed to reward or rotational unit.
The practice is soft conventional Force,
interoperability integration and interdependence more than an RT.
You the leaves wall between them when it comes to civil Affairs
operations. That's really great to hear.
And last rotation, I went through last August, I think it
was in August 20 21, approximately.
We were having those engagements, but we'd sometimes
come across a guy, the civilian of Battlefield, whose name
magically would change. He's the same guy, but his name
would be different based on whether you're talking to soft
team or the conventional, see a team.
Are you saying now that those roles have been Consolidated?
So, It's the same person you're talking to if you're collecting
information or pulling out a network of individuals, the the
sea Mock and cki actually works that way.
Yeah, absolutely. So you know the specific thing
you're referencing here. We have a limited number of role
players. So sometimes you might find a
role player with two different names, you know, hit the, I
believe. But when you're here, right?
Everybody's got a budget. However, now, the second part
you are, right? So, for instance, there's
sometimes engagements because Reserve component is normally a
larger component, the Civil Affairs Force here, at the
National Training Center, They have more eyes and ears forward
and especially early in a rotation.
They'll be doing civil engagement, civil Network
development and they'll meet somebody who based on hopefully
the conversations they've already had with the soft
element. They'll say.
Hey you know what? I think that guy belongs to an
organization that maybe these guys are soft.
Brothers and sisters, might have an interested.
And so leveraging, the much larger Mass Reserve component.
Says, it'll be here, they'll be the eyes and ears.
But occasionally, they'll find that that person is kind of, you
know, Golden Nugget. That could be passed over to the
soft side and then I'm not going to give away the secrets here,
but the scenario is designed that being able to leverage that
person and letting the soft side.
It leverage that person could actually make your life easier.
You know, further on in the rotation, not too much easier.
It's still going to be hard. It's the National Training
Center. Yeah.
But it might, it might contribute to consolidating
gains and that's actually what we saw the day.
Before this, this recording happened.
But yeah, again, come and find out and play through it and then
you'll see how it works out. That's great, couple more
questions here. I want to talk about next that
the Cadre and the guidance, they provide so that Observer coach
trainer the training part of this and the oftentimes the
foot-stomping of it guys, if you haven't integrated with your
supported unit, you should go over there and meet with them.
You should be part of their operations process and MDM fee
and ensuring your communication systems are up and running in
the talk to each other. Also, the operations process to
task organized teams, two battalions as the fight
progresses throughout the rotation into your point.
About the integration, not only between active and Reserve, CA
but all these other ircs did not hold onto information.
That doesn't help anyone just to think that I've got the data.
I've got this baseball card about somebody, I just met you
need to share that widely. And ensuring those reports and
data are shared with the S9 of whoever you're supporting in the
non-lethal targeting cell. So, given all that in the
guidance that you provide to Euro CTS, what would you say are
the areas that most CA units should emphasize for success?
Yeah, so the theme of integration that you mentioned
is dead on accurate and I'm going to talk about the very
things you've listed. What I think is really
interesting about this topic is that it's not the Civil Affairs
specific stuff that trips up civil Affairs companies.
Right at the end of the day, what we do is civil Affairs
officers and noncommissioned officers and Specialists isn't
the hardest. Most technical thing on the
Right. Oftentimes, we're talking to
people, we're writing about it, we're sharing that information
and we're building relationships.
Most of us are pretty good at that.
That's why we came civil. We went civil Affairs, but it's
sometimes the more basic things that trip us up and we get here.
So first, we've got to show up ready to go.
We must send our best people on the advance party.
When main body hits the ground, they can't be wasting time.
Trying to figure out the program.
I mean, I've seen occasionally units not even show up day one
of ours. So and I have a day to and I
will tell you, it sets them so far behind because they didn't
send an advance on, and they didn't even show up on time to
the fight. That hasn't An often but I've
seen it. Yeah.
We've got to send the best Supply.
Sergeant on ADD Bond. We've got to send the best combo
Sergeant, we can find on add a bond and we have to send a
pretty talented member of the C Mod.
Q can integrate with the Brigade staff from receipt of mission on
when Advan hits the ground, we have to get those vehicles in
the supported brigades G CS s Army hierarchy.
Why? Because your vehicles are going
to break out here, right? It's some of the harshest
terrain, you're going to train on a hundred, pretty pretty
harsh conditions, especially during the Vehicles aren't
showing up on the equipment. Status report Parts aren't going
to get ordered or installed why? This is something that I need to
learn to. I was a company Commander
because the ESR, the equipment status report is what
commanders. Look at if a brigade or
Battalion Commander sees a vehicle on that report, that
doesn't have parts of hurt against it or that has Parts on
hand, but not installed. They're going to do their part
to motivate the right people to get it done.
If you don't have that level of Commander, Focus, your vehicles
aren't going to be fully Mission capable.
Capable and your teams and be left behind in some technical
assembly area somewhere. Because again, if you're an
anchor, you're going to be left behind another thing.
Get your Communications up invalidated as part of the
brigades comics, this actually starts.
Well before add Von though, you need to come with the comms
package that matches a brigades pace plan as closely as
possible. And I understand, not all of our
units are going to have that robust of the package.
You're only going to know what that equipment.
Is after actively engaging, the brigades S6 many months out and
if you're missing the right equipment, you've got to work
with your Battalion, your Brigade, or even your K, com6 to
get it and get it working. That's just going to be critical
so that you can communicate. Then in sure you've got the
right person on the ground to get it operational.
Well, before its time to cross, the line of departure, hfj BCP,
sing Gars zipper and a laptops are all things.
You need to bring to the modern fight.
Finally to that. That talented capture major from
the sea mock. They've got to get their on ADD
Vaughn and have them integrate with the staff.
When the main body arrives, the sea mock member better, be a
trusted member of the Brigade staff he or she has already dug
into Mission analysis. Figured out all the war fighting
functions and staff sections that company can bring value to.
I think you almost want that person.
So endeared to the Brigade staff that you're fighting the Brigade
commander of the Brigade, XO to make sure they can actually come
back and be part of your organization.
Or at least, you know, live between the two organizations,
being able to walk between the Operation Center and the see
mock filling that Gap, that's what you want.
If you can do those three things, having a great Supply
Sergeant on the ground, the great cam sergeant, and that see
mock member coming in on, ADD Vaughn.
That's a mission. Critical investment will pay.
Dividends throughout the company's time at NTC.
Yeah, great points. I've seen that work effectively
and so much to the point where humid teams and the Ops officer
until staff you, whatever you got in the SS 9 as well.
Certainly. But they're coming over to the
ca element that's often collocated with Brigade.
If it's the headquarters element, from that company teams
typically tasked out to those battalions but yeah, they're
often coming by like, hey, by the way, we got a meeting.
Make sure that's on your radar. We've got questions, we need you
guys to help us out with something playing this next
mission. And yeah, being plugged in And
knowing that rotation knowing the op Tempo, the battle rhythm
of. That Brigade is a huge huge
deal. What would you say though?
About integration with the other ircs for a see, a unit to be
successful, what do they have to do in coordination with the siop
pa0 and those other sections? So coordination, there is
obviously important. So I think I said this earlier,
but one thing I really like to tell the ircs as a whole, when I
briefed him during RSO, and I is that we need to combine arms in
the information environment. So I'm a civil Affairs officer,
right? I believe in our mission, what
we do, and I think we can do great things as a regiment.
But I know that when you bring civil Affairs psyops in other
ircs together, we are greater than the sum of our individual.
Parts, right? We produce, you know, higher
level results. So, how do we do that?
So, first and foremost, we need to have a process for
integrating those and how we do that here at the National
Training Center, or at least how we coach to do that is through
the information operations working group, right?
Somebody first of all, within the Brigade staff needs to be
designated the chief of I/O, or the io coordinator for the
Brigade, and they bring all of these ircs together to start
coming up with plans. Understand how a we're going to
try to affect the enemy, right? How the Brigade is going to
execute maneuver to affect that enemy and then how we can bring
to bear our capabilities, to enhance that brigades maneuver,
right? Because at the end of the day
again we're warfighters. We're not humanitarians out
here. We are trying to enable that
Brigade to fight and win better than if we weren't here.
So you usually do this to the information operations working
group, which you want to happen prior.
Prior to the targeting working group, because your outputs from
the information operations working group need to be the
inputs into that targeting working group for the most part.
A lot of these things are going to be done as targets.
That will then be re sourced and executed.
If they make it through that process, some of those things
aren't going to necessarily be targets but they will go into
other plans, right? They'll get in the plants
process and you'll help determine courses of action for
the next objective, based on that.
So that I owg and having that I owe, Coordinator identified are
going to be the key to bringing all those folks together.
Another thing that I want to say about that, the iow G is not,
not really where the sausage is made.
As people say, right? That's where we all come
together and agree and prioritize.
What we want to do, I see often civil Affairs and psyop because
often times there were in the same use the kapok patch are
pretty comfortable hanging out together building relationships,
you know within That team and are pretty effective at saying,
hey, this is how I think we can help each other produce better
results. Sometimes is a little harder
when people don't have that you see kapok patch on, right?
Where that first Special Forces command patch and we, you know,
we've got to actively build those relationships.
And sometimes it's not going to be with other ircs, sometimes
it's going to be within often. It should be with the S2, right?
Or the S3. So we understand what operations
are going to happen and against, Enemy that's utilizing.
You know what order of battle and what set?
So, Ya Doin? What we do is civil Affairs
building relationships. That's the implied task in there
that I'll specify, you know, for the sake of everybody being on
the same page. That's how we do it.
Yeah, that's good. And knowing that stuff, 48-72
hours, 96 hours in advance so you can plan and task organized
in the Ops process for teams to, to us.
Those battalions of being the right place skate to where the
puck is, I guess. So he talked About this a little
bit already, but I wanted to see if you have any other comments
about the best ways for CA units to prepare for rotation and it
could be just see a specific like a reserve component, see a
unit knowing who the active component, team will be there.
The calls, the planning meetings, they have to attend in
preparation for an it's you see rotation with the active
component unit, they're supporting, or just the kind of
stuff that they need to do at home station to prepare to shoot
move and communicate. So yeah, any other tips you have
for them, prepare No secrets here and I think I've already
alluded to this get the basics taken care of first.
Right first things first licensed Crews, who are trained
and proficient to drive day or night have using night vision
goggles are mandatory out here. This is no final mission for
commanders during your train up. You got to get this done.
You're not going to keep up with the world's best mounted
Warriors and some of the world's harshest terrain and weather.
If you can't operate your vehicle safely enough said on
that second, know how to use. Or equipment, especially your
Communications equipment. You must know how to program and
crypt, troubleshoot your radios and daggers, and I would be
remiss if I didn't recommend that you're taking advantage of
space and missile. Defense commands home station
training packages to learn how to operate in a denied degraded
and disrupted, space operating environment.
I forget the exact number but within a brigade combat team,
there's thousands of systems that are spaced enabled,
utilizing GPS and satellites. Many people don't recognize that
as a basic yet. But in lisco under multi-domain
operations, it is space, is a war fighting domain so is the
electromagnetic spectrum. While ghost team has subject
matter experts on these topics. If at all possible, you don't
want to wait until arriving here to get that valuable training.
But if you can't fill it in, especially on some of that
operating and deny degraded and disrupt its base operating
environment, we can help you here and we will finally
understand em BMP and how to integrate civil Affairs and
civil-military. Operations with a maneuver
force. In this case, the Brigade combat
Team part of that, you got to know what a brigade combat team
is read FM, 3-9 6, the Brigade combat team.
See you know what, the organization you are supporting
is what its capabilities and brings to the fight are.
It's okay not to know right now. I got it he'll before I was an
OCT here. I hadn't even thought about a
brigade combat team since since 2009.
I mean, I'm an endo pay common law and civil Affairs officer
who spent most of his time at These and on Navy ships, right?
No bcts in sight. I understand that many of one,
see a podcast listeners have spent their time on more exotic
deployments as well. But before you come to the
National Training Center, you need to understand what a BCT
is, what mission it has and what is comprised of so that, you
know, how you can apply your craft to support it.
Thank you so much. I wonder if we could close this
conversation with a recruitment pitch.
So, can you tell listeners why they should consider
volunteering to be in oct.4 for one or more rotations?
Like what's typically involved in basically why they should do
it? Yeah.
So 100% we live or die by our Act is we don't got him.
Nobody's me training here. So for civil Affairs, officers
or ncos and TCS the place become an expert at your craft.
You get to see civil Affairs units, come through every
rotation and work through the most challenging collective
training event. The Army has to offer, whether
you realize it or not at the time it changes.
You you internalize the lessons that you're often helping reveal
to the unit, you're partnered with.
Also, being an OCT here is a service to the Civil Affairs.
Regiment, you're building the regiment civil Affairs.
Companies cannot train, without OCT s who have the requisite
experience and strength of file to qualify.
Volunteering to be an OCT at the National Training.
Center is an investment in the Civil Affairs, regiment and your
army, you'll provide the training that will enable civil
Affairs soldiers to secure the victory of the next war.
Finally ghost team is a pretty cool team to be a part of our
team has professionals from civil Affairs information
operations, psyop, space public affairs and electronic warfare.
You can write out your skills as a soldier prepared to fight on
the modern Battlefield. Will being part of a pretty
tight-knit and well-respected team that draws from both active
duty and the reserves. I want to highlight that we're
proud of our multi, compo flavor, that's not something we
try to. We try to shy away from whether
active or Reserve, you matter on this team.
In fact, our team executive officer major, Jeff White is an
army reservist serving on a Das orders, right?
He's in the leadership of our team.
So if you're an active duty officer and CEO talk to your
branch manager and see what options are available.
Are out there for coming here and if you're an army reservist,
get out of Tour of Duty and fill out your application.
I and the rest of the team, can't wait to meet you.
And I'll close that by saying. You've got a kick-ass logo,
which is really cool to wear Major.
John Burns of the ghost Team National Training Center.
Thanks so much for being on the show.
Yeah, thanks for having me again.
I'm a longtime listener. I really value what the one see,
a podcast brings to the regiment, the level discussion.
So anything I can do for anybody they can feel free to reach out
to me. You put my contact information
to show notes and I'm looking forward to getting other members
to ghost team for the National Training Center for smart.
You who've rotate through here on to the podcast so that we can
continue this conversation and how we train, you know, not just
a civil Affairs, regiment but are Army to win the first battle
the next four? Yes, sir.
Thank you. Have a good time in the desert.
Well, cow. Thank you for spending some time
with us. Please subscribe.
And come back for another installment, one, CA until then
be safe and secure the victory. In civil Affairs, your success
depends on getting the right information to the right, people
at the right time. Whether it's foundational
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