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What was the one? 
See a podcast? 

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This is your host Jack gains. 
When CA is a product of the 

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Civil Affairs Association and 
brings in people who are current

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or former military diplomats 
development officers and field 

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agents to discuss their 
experiences on ground with a 

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partner Nations. 
People and Leadership our goal 

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is to inspire anyone interested 
in working the last three feet 

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of foreign relations to contact 
the show email us at That see a 

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podcasting at gmail.com, or look
us up on the Civil Affairs, 

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association website at 
www.flcfs.org. 

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I'll have those in the show 
notes, Shadow governments. 

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What they're doing is they're 
performing governance but what 

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they're providing to the 
resistance or Insurgency is 

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legitimacy. 
Welcome back. 

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This is part two of the 
interview with Josh Bedingfield 

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talking about his upcoming 
paper, the value proposition of 

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Shadow governments, which should
be out at any moment this summer

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when it does become available. 
I will update the show notes and

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make an announcement for this 
episode. 

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Josh and I continued to discuss 
his findings and how they are 

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applied. 
If you missed part one, I 

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recommend going back and 
checking it out first. 

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But if you insist, let's get 
started with the show. 

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This is another reason why I 
really like K magnussen's theory

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on social contract. 
Because what it says is, you 

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could theoretically have great 
systems of Exchange in a really 

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Stellar performance and services
metrics, but if it's not built 

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on shared values, you're a 
fraud. 

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It's just increasingly becoming 
simpler to determine or at least

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question the motives that were 
presented. 

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We don't give credit to people's
capacity to do that. 

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That we just wave a way that 
there needs to be a measure of 

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sincere shared values and I'll 
even go a step further, right? 

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Like Vietnam, the Vietcong 
actually do. 

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All right, there's great 
literature on the fact that they

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knew that they did not have 
struck shared values with the 

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South Vietnamese people. 
Really of, in the Vietnamese 

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people were large, interesting, 
the concept of Communism of 

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leninist. 
Marxist. 

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Communism does not marry itself.
Well to core, and this is a just

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according to literature on. 
Trying to speak on outside of my

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mouth, it just doesn't align 
itself. 

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Well with core cultural 
paradigms in the Vietnamese 

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culture. 
It actually is directly contrary

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to them Concepts like the 
Mandate of Heaven Concepts, 

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like, you know, the importance 
of local spheres of influence 

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and whatnot, right? 
The predominance of a desire to 

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own property. 
And so when the Viet Cong sent 

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their Shadow government down 
into Vietnam, they were actually

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specifically instructed, like 
don't talk about Cummings, don't

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do it. 
Don't bring up the thing that is

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going to break our effort to 
build shared values, right? 

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But we want you to do is 
actually play into the values 

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that we can demonstrate our 
shared. 

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So you had a communist 
government. 

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Send operatives to to conduct 
governance activities in South 

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Vietnam where a big part of 
their operation was to 

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distribute land for private 
ownership, that is 

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anti-communist, right? 
It was a core value of the 

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population so it attracted only 
the core diet population. 

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Right? 
So they took this approach to 

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say hey I'm going to I'm going 
to hide it from you. 

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And what I'm going to do is I'm 
just going to find out what you 

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need and I'm going to prove to 
you that I can get it to you. 

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Sure. 
And then when I take power, 

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that's when I can be like hey 
you know, that land but I gave 

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you we're going to collectivize 
it. 

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Well it's something interesting.
David Maxwell was just 

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interviewed and he's talking 
about peaceful reunification of 

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the two koreas, one thing that 
he was. 

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Ending is that South Korea, 
start mapping, the parcels of 

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all the North Korean Villages. 
And then once the reunification 

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starts to occur, the South 
Korean start handing, each of 

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those local farmers and Village 
members the deed to their land. 

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Say you own it. 
Now, this is your pretty face 

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and his theory is. 
If you do that, you add 

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legitimacy to the transition 
government, as well as keep the 

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population of place. 
So they don't migrate out. 

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Sure, I'll drop a little thought
grenade into the conversation 

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right now is anybody can find 
the value in communism, but you 

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give somebody a parcel of land 
and autonomy over their own 

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ability to make away in the 
their lives. 

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Communism seems weird. 
You're weird. 

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Everybody's like, we all own 
everything until you give 

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somebody to acres of land and 
say, you can shape your way 

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offered the audience. 
And it's not very many cultures 

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out there that there's not 
value. 

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Sure, that would challenge that 
perspective and and, and the 

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Vietcong knew that right? 
Ho Chi Minh and GAP. 

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They knew that very smart 
towards. 

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And that's part of the reason 
China became such an economic 

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power, is that the government 
started that two-tier system 

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where they had an economic base?
That was more open capitalism 

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and then they had the governance
side on top of it that said, hey

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as long as you want to make 
money, you know you want to run 

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a business, you want to own a 
business, find will leave you 

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alone, pay your taxes paid. 
Whatever payoffs you have to do,

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just don't get into the 
governance side and sure. 

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Preachy, you know, it worked 
pretty well. 

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The thing is when she took 
power, he started to see all 

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that money flow and lack of 
control and he started to 

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centralize it and it is caused 
trying to start peaking 

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economically as well as in their
foreign policy Outreach, which 

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how Brands fears is going to 
cause them to be more violent in

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their future foreign policy 
actions. 

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And actually I was Talking to 
John kisara. 

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We just wrote a book about China
for he did about seven 

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indictments on their illicit 
activities. 

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He follows everything from their
fit and I'll trade to Oregon 

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theft and the uyghurs and 
slavery and all that. 

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And that's when question I asked
him is, do you think that as 

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they Peak will the dictatorship 
then lean more into fit and I'll

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trade and Oregon transfers and 
all of the different illicit 

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activities. 
They have to make up that 

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difference. 
And I'm Wait for him to respond.

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So it'll be interesting. 
It's a great way to frame kind 

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of one of these little side 
narratives of what I was working

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on about, like just the value of
shared values, right? 

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Building a system where the 
people are bought into the 

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system that you're selling, 
right? 

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Yeah. 
This is kind of revolving around

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three findings, in my research. 
So the third finding what is one

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of the disadvantages of the 
Shadow government. 

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It makes the organizational 
structure, that is best. 

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Most poised to get the 
population to buy into the 

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resistance or Insurgency, it 
makes them vulnerable because 

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they have to be a forward facing
organization. 

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The Taliban Shadow government 
was partially an effective 

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because it was actually truly a 
shadow government. 

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They didn't have an office 
sitting there, they didn't have 

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a structure available for the 
people to engage with an 

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exchange, with this alternate 
form of government. 

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So they layered on some like, 
Clandestine Insurgency type 

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thought on how they built this 
up when you've got a good one. 

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One that's actually building 
legitimacy. 

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You got something that looks 
like the Vietcong in Vietnam or 

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I argued in solidarity, the 
shadow government was the 

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national Coordinating Committee 
and CC, right? 

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These were the offices that made
these Regional protest movements

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become solidarity but they were 
offices. 

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They were people that existed 
there to say. 

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I'm gonna offer you a Will 
contract and you can come and 

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talk to me Monday through 
Friday, you know, 825, I'm 

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representing you and this 
exchange that we have. 

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I'm gonna give you these things 
through shared values and 

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performance, and services, and 
systems of exchange. 

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And what you're going to give me
back is your part of the social 

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contract. 
You're going to give me 

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legitimacy when I tell you to 
strike and Poland. 

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I don't want you to worry about 
the government saying. 

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Don't strike a way to go strike 
at a specific time and a 

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specific place. 
We need to demonstrate that. 

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You support the movement and 
people in Poland, did they had 

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millions of members? 
And the first year of them 

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coming up and it exploded? 
Because this social contract 

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that solidarity was selling was 
very real but it made the NCC, 

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very vulnerable. 
So the return on a shadow 

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government is extremely 
valuable. 

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It's novel in terms of 
resistance and intermittency 

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structures, you don't get large 
scale legitimacy through 

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Guerrilla operations. 
You get some people will support

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you but it's just a different 
type of exchange, auxiliary, an 

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underground, same way. 
So you build a Shadow government

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to compete with the opposition 
within their sphere of control. 

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You're going to get a 
large-scale return on legitimacy

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if you perform. 
Good governance. 

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But it's going to make you very 
vulnerable because good 

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governance requires you to be 
present, it requires you to 

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exist, in a Real place said a 
real time. 

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So the Vietcong knew this, 
right? 

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They set up operatives as a part
of their Shadow government, that

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lived in the hamlets and the 
towns. 

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And guess what? 
That made it pretty easy for 

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Phoenix to find them and kill 
them. 

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Capture them. 
It made it pretty easy to 

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determine for US forces in the 
government of Vietnam to say, 

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hey, here's where chords needs 
to go to counter governance, 

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right? 
The problem is it took a service

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away that supported the core 
value of those local. 

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Judges is what you're saying. 
Yeah, because there's no place 

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in on it, right? 
Are you the same thing for like 

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vso in Afghanistan? 
So it made it easy for us to 

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determine where it is. 
So you've got these resistance 

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structures gorillas underground,
an auxiliary that they can go 

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out and live in a barn. 
You don't need to see them. 

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You just need to know that 
they're doing their job and you 

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get the return on their 
function, Shadow government's, 

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they have to exist. 
They have to be with the people 

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makes them very vulnerable and 
that's what you saw. 

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In solidarity NCC was super 
present, they were there and 

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jerez else, key get elected and 
he's like not today. 

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And overnight thousands of 
solidarity members are arrested 

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to include Melissa. 
All of the, in CC Regional 

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Offices are taken down there or 
shut down and solidarity for the

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vast majority of its 
organizational, purpose ceases 

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to exist in a 24-hour period of 
time. 

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That's how vulnerable it could 
show the government makes you, 

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right? 
And that's what And that elster 

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Smith, who wrote the dictators 
hand book, argues is that the 

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current policy of dictators is 
to kill off any chato 

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governments to the point where 
they just, there is no 

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resistance anymore. 
Putin is a great example of 

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this. 
He and she of spread this kind 

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of notion around the world which
is why you're getting the 

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problems. 
You are in the car is that 

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they're just being brutal to. 
Any kind of resistance is going 

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out there. 
Sure no doubt and that is one of

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the two ways. 
Is that a counter government and

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opposition can go about 
combating, a shadow got, right? 

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I argue in the paper. 
I essentially say listen, you 

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got either a kill capture or 
counter governance approach but 

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kill capture only works if you 
really good at it it only works 

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if your total right, it's very 
trunky a and its approach, 

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right? 
Right to trunk. 

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Yeah. 
In French Algeria, he does coin 

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and he has cruelly good coin in 
a great task knitting interviews

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with the now. 
He's like, no, we just we just 

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we killed everybody. 
Yeah, right, everybody right. 

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You were associated. 
You got killed or captured 

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period and it was very 
comprehensive in its approach, 

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it's not very palatable for us 
in the west to acknowledge that 

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good coin, that is relying on 
kill capture ideology. 

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Historically, speaking is really
only effective if your total 

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about it, and is it in a 
long-term form effect? 

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Because the French still 
struggle with any kind of 

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cooperation in Algeria and other
countries around the North and 

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South. 
Yeah. 

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Great question. 
Right, what's your Horizon on 

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success? 
Is it you know next year or is 

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it 10 years from that? 
Or is it 50 years? 

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00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,900
You may be able to bludgeon 
yourself into cooperation but 

232
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there's a long history and the 
Locals are those Nations often 

233
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,600
tell stories down to their 
children and their children's 

234
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,700
children about it until there's 
a point where the legitimacy 

235
00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:48,300
starts to creep back out. 
Yeah, which is why I say if 

236
00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:50,700
you're going to go about that 
approach, just acknowledge how 

237
00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:53,200
it works and how it doesn't 
work, it's more nuanced than 

238
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,000
we're getting out to them work. 
More kind of being a little 

239
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,000
sound bite me in terms of the 
takeaways from it. 

240
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,600
But well, it's a podcast again, 
finding a little, exactly. 

241
00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:03,800
I am committing a cardinal sin 
or not, you're doing a podcast. 

242
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:04,900
That's what you're supposed to 
do. 

243
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,800
And the other approaches, the 
counter governance approach and 

244
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,500
that's hard for us too. 
Because when we say Phoenix go 

245
00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:14,100
and conduct your task, right? 
I get these great metrics of 

246
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:16,400
performance that are very 
military palatable. 

247
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,600
Sure in an eccentric operation. 
I get to tell you how many 

248
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,400
people I captured? 
I could tell you how many people

249
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,600
I killed. 
It makes sense to everybody. 

250
00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:25,500
I'm not going to say I like it 
because we like it. 

251
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,500
I'm going to say I like it 
because it makes sense. 

252
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,900
If I'm measuring the delta in 
the variance between how much 

253
00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:36,500
legitimacy I have taken away 
from from a shadow government 

254
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:40,200
and that's difficult for me to 
conceptualize and I've studied 

255
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,800
it for you, right? 
And I, I will tell you that the 

256
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,700
idea of building a nice little 
white paper one page report for 

257
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:51,600
status rep to a commanding 
officer walking into her office 

258
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,800
and saying, man. 
Here's what I've done over the 

259
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,700
last three months of my counter 
government operations, I don't 

260
00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:59,100
know if I could build that 
product, because it's very 

261
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:02,700
nuanced, right? 
And you're not going to get very

262
00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:04,700
good feedback. 
When you say, it's hard to 

263
00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,800
measure. 
It's difficult to measure right,

264
00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:10,300
but it's partially difficult to 
measure because we don't have a 

265
00:14:10,308 --> 00:14:13,000
framework for it right again, 
going back to that, it 

266
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,200
governance is only the 
activities of the government. 

267
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,900
Then we have these great 
examples of chords and vso in 

268
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,200
Vietnam and Afghanistan of 
counter governance. 

269
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,200
What exactly are we doing, 
right? 

270
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,800
Counter governance is not just 
strengthening gyro or government

271
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,400
from South Vietnam. 
It's also getting after that 

272
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,700
shadow government breaking its 
legs metaphorically speaking, 

273
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:37,200
And making it less palatable to 
population. 

274
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,900
That's counter governance that I
need metrics. 

275
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:44,800
I need measures of performance 
and measures of Effectiveness to

276
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,200
demonstrate that. 
There's been a change based off 

277
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,200
of my inputs into that system 
and we can't start building 

278
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,500
Frameworks like that. 
Until we institutionally 

279
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,500
acknowledge that governance is 
more complex than the activities

280
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:05,100
performed by the government. 
Yeah so here's here's the fun 

281
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:08,900
question. 
What you're describing is 

282
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:15,600
exactly the same as what went on
in the macro political Realm of 

283
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,500
the Cold War and the u.s. in 
competition. 

284
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,600
But what was a system versus 
system competition. 

285
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,800
The Cold War, I see residents 
also in the global strategic 

286
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,100
competition that we're doing now
with China and Russia and well, 

287
00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:38,100
the four plus one do you see 
competition as a form of Shadow 

288
00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:42,700
governance, where were competing
for the global markets and also 

289
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,200
Do you see a strategy to where 
the us could be using targeted 

290
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,600
core values with our partner 
Nations and Target Nations that 

291
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,400
we want to build as partners as 
a way of outcompeting these 

292
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,300
competitors, I'm going to answer
your question by not directly 

293
00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:03,700
answering your question. 
Oh, thank I'm going to running 

294
00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:08,100
for that to tell you why. 
I'm not going to directly answer

295
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:12,300
it because I do not think that 
it's what I will say, is this, I

296
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:15,900
think it's very important. 
Ain't for Army, Special 

297
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:19,000
Operations forces. 
And frankly, the Department of 

298
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,000
State and some other other 
governmental agencies to get a 

299
00:16:24,008 --> 00:16:28,000
little bit smarter on how to 
build support and neutralize, 

300
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,900
Shadow government's. 
I think that when they exist, 

301
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:33,700
they're very dangerous. 
Westmoreland actually said that 

302
00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:36,300
they might just be more 
important than the gorillas back

303
00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:38,100
in Vietnam. 
And he was, I would argue 

304
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,400
correct because they sell hope 
to the population. 

305
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,900
Sure they'd sell a lot of things
but definitely, definitely. 

306
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,300
Threat. 
So we need to get smarter on 

307
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:48,800
building them. 
We're on apprehensive about 

308
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,900
saying why we would want to 
build them. 

309
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,700
It is hard to to proxy this kind
of stuff. 

310
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,900
I don't think that building a 
shadow government is the kind of

311
00:17:00,908 --> 00:17:05,599
thing that we can send some 
Bob's over say building the 

312
00:17:05,608 --> 00:17:07,900
shadow government today. 
Team. 

313
00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:10,400
Well, I'm not prescribing that 
as well. 

314
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,599
I'm just saying that, well, I 
say that there's humor in it, 

315
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:15,099
right? 
But there's a complicated 

316
00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:17,000
history with our support of 
regimes. 

317
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,500
Me, Kermit Roosevelt and Iran? 
I mean, a lot of things, right? 

318
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:25,099
I'm going to keep it real vague,
so it's complicated, but if 

319
00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:28,600
we're doing good shared values, 
it's not us doing it. 

320
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:31,500
Where it's really important for 
us to understand why to do it is

321
00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:34,300
when we talk about our partners 
who are integrated resistance 

322
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,700
Training Concepts and to their 
defense plans, right? 

323
00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:39,500
If we look at Ukraine and we 
say, hey, we've had an 

324
00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,800
investment within Ukraine for a 
period of time and a part of 

325
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,100
that. 
Speaks a part of the success 

326
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:48,500
that we're seeing is a 
bi-product of the investment 

327
00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:51,100
that we put into there where 
you've got these great reports 

328
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,200
coming out saying hey that 
offensive that came down from 

329
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,400
the North and the opening days 
of the conflict that wasn't 

330
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,100
really stopped unilaterally by 
uniformed Ukrainian forces. 

331
00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:04,800
They were territorial defense 
units that stood up and held the

332
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,600
line at a very critical access 
of approach. 

333
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:09,700
Right? 
There is local populations that 

334
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:14,100
were throwing Molotov cocktails 
on trucks and vehicles and And 

335
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,400
absolutely, right, that's 
resistance if we're building 

336
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:23,100
resistance Concepts into partner
and allies structures of defense

337
00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:27,900
and a part of that is 
acknowledging that in the event,

338
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:32,200
that there's a scenario where we
can't hold the line or they 

339
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,700
can't hold the line and we've 
really got to lean into this 

340
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,800
resistance as defense concept, 
which is what the Rock is, this 

341
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,800
is my trying to speak out of 
turn here. 

342
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,800
There are nations that are our 
allies that Have really leaned 

343
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,500
into the Rock and I encourage 
it. 

344
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:50,100
I think it's great. 
I think it's a fantastic 

345
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:54,500
approach to use limited means to
to get outsized returns in terms

346
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:56,700
of Defending territory. 
Sure. 

347
00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:58,600
And you acknowledge that you're 
going to seed from that 

348
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,100
territory then and if you 
acknowledge, you're going to 

349
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:03,900
seed from a bit. 
Then we're looking at a scenario

350
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:11,500
Like Glue, Hans. 
And what are the than place to 

351
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,800
compete? 
With this occupation regime that

352
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,000
is in charge of that area? 
It's a shadow government. 

353
00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:20,800
That's the organization. 
That's the resistant structure 

354
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,500
that we're talking about that. 
It's going to compete with that 

355
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:26,400
occupation regime and it's in 
saying that out loud makes it 

356
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,500
very real the threats to that 
organization become very 

357
00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:31,600
palatable. 
We acknowledge where we'll be in

358
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,500
play in the conflict that we're 
all very focused on right now, 

359
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:36,200
right? 
I said it out loud. 

360
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,700
Knowing full, well, that I'm I'm
saying there is a value return 

361
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:44,000
for people with in luhansk to 
say, I'm going to set up shop 

362
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,100
and I'm going to act on behalf 
of the Ukrainian government to 

363
00:19:47,108 --> 00:19:50,400
perform a governance function 
that is at odds with my 

364
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,500
occupation, you're painting a 
Target on your back, right? 

365
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:56,700
I don't know how to make that 
more palatable because it is the

366
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:58,500
reality of the situation. 
Sure. 

367
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,400
But how cool would it be if we 
knew that or we built it into 

368
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,500
the Rock ahead of time? 
That's how nice would it be? 

369
00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:10,100
I'm sorry. 
What do you mean by Rock the 

370
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:11,800
resistance operating concept? 
Okay, thank you. 

371
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,600
So the research sobbing calm 
said, yeah sure not the Republic

372
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:16,900
of Korea. 
Okay. 

373
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,000
The resistance operating concept
we're doing a good job or that 

374
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,200
multinational concept built in 
cooperation with the joint 

375
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,800
Special Operations. 
University does a great job of 

376
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,300
saying, here's how you build 
gorilla and auxiliary and 

377
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,500
underground type functions in 
advance as a part of a 

378
00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:34,700
territorial defense plan. 
Sure. 

379
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,400
And we're good at supporting 
building those because it aligns

380
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,300
with our existing Doctrine, but 
there's a return and a function 

381
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:46,100
there that I argue is important 
for us to just equally 

382
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:49,500
acknowledge when it's necessary 
to build support or neutralize 

383
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,300
and that's a shadow government. 
And if we're doing this ahead of

384
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,900
time, we're setting these things
up ahead of time and helping our

385
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,300
partners, develop them and 
integrate them into their 

386
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:02,100
defense plans. 
Then it's probably incumbent on 

387
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:06,900
us to at least acknowledge That 
there's a value here, there's a 

388
00:21:06,908 --> 00:21:10,500
value of saying, you're going to
do G activities, underground 

389
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:13,200
activities and auxiliary 
activities, I know, by the way, 

390
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,400
you guys need to work out, 
however, if it's within your 

391
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,400
system of governance at a 
national level that if this 

392
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,900
region becomes occupied, who is 
continuing the line of 

393
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:26,500
governments that is 
demonstrating that the insert 

394
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:29,700
partner or Ally State. 
Here is still the legitimate 

395
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,400
Authority in this area, giving 
people the opportunity to make 

396
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,100
that choice and The porch step 
to make sense makes told us that

397
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,600
that's how we'll answer. 
I think it's a great non-answer 

398
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:47,000
but I do like the idea of 
focusing on the core values of 

399
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,100
Nations that you're trying to 
build better relationships with 

400
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,900
and it may not be building a 
shadow government. 

401
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:59,700
In might be just good diplomacy 
to reach out and focus on core 

402
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:03,200
values and building Mutual door,
shared ideals. 

403
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:08,000
So at the The macro Global rule 
law system. 

404
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,500
I think that might be a better 
way of competing against You 

405
00:22:13,508 --> 00:22:16,500
know, Nations that basically 
promote corruption and violence 

406
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:18,900
to compete with the current rule
of law system. 

407
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:20,800
Yeah. 
So I think that might be the 

408
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,400
attractor that we've just not 
paid attention to when designing

409
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,200
Global competition and counter 
malign influence. 

410
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,500
Yeah, I think it's all tight 
end. 

411
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:32,300
If we talk about this from the 
perspective of what my findings 

412
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:35,700
were Shadow governments are 
offer a really great return for 

413
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:38,200
resistances, right? 
They offer something that other 

414
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,500
resistance organizations don't 
and that's legitimacy. 

415
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,700
If you build enough legitimacy, 
you're going to Your odds of 

416
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:48,300
success and short-term, that's 
Victory and long-term. 

417
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,100
It's less likely you're 
resistant. 

418
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:53,600
Once you re-establish control. 
That's good second. 

419
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,400
They're very vulnerable if you 
do them. 

420
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,400
Well, they're very vulnerable 
and that's just a statement. 

421
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,600
The takeaway is, you need to 
protect them, right? 

422
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,000
They can't just exist, 
unprotected. 

423
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,100
He had to find a way to protect 
an outward facing organization 

424
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,900
and if we're looking at 
disrupting them or neutralizing 

425
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:15,300
them, M. 
Then there are two approaches to

426
00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:17,100
do it. 
There's an enemy Centric one 

427
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,000
where it's kill capture which 
aligns itself with coin Doctrine

428
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,800
kind of what we did in the last 
20 years in Afghanistan and 

429
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,500
there's a counter governance 
angle kill captures hard to pull

430
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:30,900
off but if you do it well you 
can just squash it like winning 

431
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:34,000
a fight like overwhelmingly. 
Don't just get into a fight with

432
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,900
bully like you know you gotta 
break his kneecap and he just 

433
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:37,700
want to fight. 
You get right? 

434
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:40,000
Like you got to do it really 
well really quickly. 

435
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,400
But since that's kind of hard 
for us to do not because it's it

436
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,500
were not good at it because or 
pretty practice at it right now.

437
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:50,500
It's because it's hard to do 
period and it's kind of 

438
00:23:50,508 --> 00:23:52,200
unpalatable and Western 
doctrines. 

439
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,000
I think we should just focus on 
the counter governance angle. 

440
00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:56,800
Sure. 
It's a little bit of a slower 

441
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,300
approach, but if we flip my 
hypothesis backwards and say, 

442
00:24:01,300 --> 00:24:04,300
all right, well, the shadow 
government gets you legitimacy 

443
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,800
and legitimacy increases your 
odds of success and decreases 

444
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,200
your odds that you're going to 
face a resistance. 

445
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,200
Once you're successful. 
The hypothesis kind of holds 

446
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,700
true on counter governance as 
well. 

447
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,000
Counter governance is meant to 
delegitimize, a shadow 

448
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,400
government and legitimize the 
government that you're acting on

449
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,100
behalf of, wouldn't we be able 
to equally say that we are 

450
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:29,000
increasing the odds of the 
government that we are 

451
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,100
supporting them succeeding and 
building legitimacy by 

452
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,300
encouraging people to buy into 
that system of governance. 

453
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:40,000
It sounds like you're taking the
best of the North Vietnamese 

454
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,200
plan and flipping it to where it
can be used for. 

455
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,200
Either resistance to a dictator 
or trying to build a Shadow 

456
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,300
government to help go after 
dictators and oligarchs 

457
00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:54,800
basically. 
Yeah, generally speaking just 

458
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,600
support our national objective, 
the tactics and strategies that 

459
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,500
you're discussing would be 
applicable for the u.s. out 

460
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,700
competing with line. 
Actors. 

461
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:05,600
Absolutely. 
Right. 

462
00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:08,300
And these structures to I'm 
saying, hey this way learn about

463
00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:11,000
Shadow government and to answer 
your question more directly if 

464
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,200
we're talking about a global 
competition for influence like 

465
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,200
what is Great power competition.
Look like, well, in my opinion, 

466
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,800
historical allegory is the Cold 
War. 

467
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,900
What was the currency in the 
Cold War? 

468
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:24,400
It was influence. 
Yes. 

469
00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:27,200
Who can wield their influence 
within a series of operations, 

470
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,800
or a steer of the world better. 
But that really blouses bows 

471
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,900
down to his legitimacy. 
The number of people who are 

472
00:25:31,908 --> 00:25:34,600
willingly obeying a democratic 
regime versus a Communist 

473
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,200
Regime, right? 
The challenge with the Cold War 

474
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,300
though is that a lot of 
countries played both sides. 

475
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,500
Absolutely. 
Right. 

476
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:43,300
Because they didn't know who was
going to win. 

477
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,500
So they're gonna Give good grace
to both sides. 

478
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:49,600
And then, as one became more 
dominant, they started to switch

479
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,900
and support. 
Its kind of point is the formula

480
00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:54,700
holds and just get rid of Shadow
right? 

481
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,100
If governments perform 
governance as non-governmental 

482
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:01,000
entities are quite capable of 
doing right. 

483
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,600
Little knock on wood there. 
If governments, perform 

484
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,500
governance than the return that 
they get is legitimacy. 

485
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,800
Sure. 
And if they're in competition 

486
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,900
with something else then what 
better way to increase your odds

487
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:16,700
of success then by Forming good,
governance and increasing your 

488
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:19,800
legitimacy with the population 
because that's the Target and 

489
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,800
legitimacy population Centric 
operation. 

490
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,600
And for every five people that 
see me is legitimate, that's 

491
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,000
five less than C use Legend. 
There is a point of time T 

492
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,400
value. 
T the it's zero-sum five people 

493
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,800
that are obeying me or obeying 
you that's a zero-sum exchange. 

494
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:42,900
It's a very powerful shift in 
who wields the means the people 

495
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:46,200
at any given point in time The 
interesting point is when there 

496
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,200
are swing population and they're
actually using the services of 

497
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,100
both sides to see which one they
like better. 

498
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:53,300
Sure. 
And that's where I will 

499
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:55,400
acknowledge my research fails, a
little short is because I have 

500
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,000
to use the word support without 
spending a huge amount of time. 

501
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,500
Looking at what the word support
mean this material support is 

502
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:04,100
this. 
I'm going to make a sign out 

503
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:06,900
back with a fist on it and says,
you know, down to the fascists 

504
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:10,600
like what exactly does this 
mean, what does support look 

505
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,300
like? 
Maybe support looks like I just 

506
00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:14,400
stay home that day and I don't 
support the government. 

507
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:17,500
Owing to support you by not 
supporting your opponent. 

508
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,100
Is that support? 
And I would say, I don't know, I

509
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,600
think there's a lot of ways you 
can support something, I think 

510
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,800
that there's a lot of different 
metrics we can look at it, 

511
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,200
there's material support, 
there's moral support. 

512
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,200
Sure. 
The one thing that's striking me

513
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,700
about what you're saying, that 
reminds me of an economic model,

514
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,900
the the startup model that you 
bring in a new product that 

515
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:43,000
disrupts the current market and 
takes it over. 

516
00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:49,400
Uber was a disruptive governance
system in a way that displaced 

517
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,000
taxis which were an older 
expensive and unofficial n't 

518
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:58,200
system and displaced it with a 
newer economic model, and that's

519
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,800
kind of what you're also talking
about is bringing in services 

520
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:06,600
that better fit the population. 
So that they're so attracted to 

521
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,900
it that they want nothing to do 
with the old government and its 

522
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:13,300
taxiways, they want to go with 
the new hip government with. 

523
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,200
It's Uber ways because it's 
cheaper and it removes the pain 

524
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,400
in their life of having to get 
from one place to another with a

525
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,500
lot of hassle. 
Yeah, I mean, you're treading 

526
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:23,300
dangerous water that I would 
definitely agree with. 

527
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:25,700
If you were actually doing it 
openly by saying that 

528
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,500
corporations can perform 
governance like hundred percent 

529
00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:31,100
by Into You. 
Well, when Zuckerberg went to 

530
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,400
Congress, a couple years ago, 
one of the complaints that 

531
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,600
Congressman had, is that sound 
like Zuckerberg was representing

532
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,500
a population as if he was the 
government and he certainly 

533
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:42,500
represents a social contract 
with his users. 

534
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:45,400
He does Like your homeowners 
association does you know? 

535
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,900
I mean, you can't have a chicken
coop. 

536
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,900
What do you get for that? 
Well, they get onto your 

537
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:55,400
neighbor for leaving their trash
cans out more in one day, right?

538
00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:57,800
That is governance and that is 
shaping. 

539
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,200
That is a social contract that 
you buy into is supported by 

540
00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:04,500
fake or real shared values, but 
to betting on your homeowners 

541
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:08,000
association and how that's run 
systems of exchange and services

542
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,000
in performance and is a 
governance structure from a, 

543
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,000
from a non-government entity. 
The you buy into and that you 

544
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,300
can fight, if you don't want to 
do it, right? 

545
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,700
You want to talk about like a 
really great case study, what 

546
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:22,000
somebody should run somewhere 
that's not employed by the US 

547
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,400
government resisting the HOA. 
What like, that's it a try? 

548
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:40,100
You sure, we have all failed and
what a great way to test some of

549
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:42,300
these structures. 
What how does that manifest in 

550
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:45,200
terms of my geez? 
Hillary or my underground my 

551
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,000
shadow government? 
Do I have like a another HOA 

552
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,000
that just sits there and 
performs the functions? 

553
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,900
I love the HOA. 
When that be a fun social test, 

554
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,500
the shadow government HOA and 
pre senior competing with them 

555
00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:01,100
on Services. 
A yeah, you're competing with 

556
00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:04,800
them on services and now that 
whole 0 something makes it make 

557
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,300
herself perfectly logical right 
right for every Linda and Bill 

558
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,400
that's a man you know the 
existing HOA to not really give 

559
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,400
me what I need. 
I like this other social 

560
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,800
contract better. 
I'm not going to pay my dues, 

561
00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:19,100
I'm going to pay my dues to the 
other HOA. 

562
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,700
I'm just going to violate my 
social contract. 

563
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:23,500
That's a zero-sum exchange of 
legitimacy. 

564
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,300
Well and it would also become a 
court battle. 

565
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:29,800
Yeah, I mean sure sure. 
Of course every government has 

566
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,500
its its backing and HOH it's the
legal process. 

567
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:37,600
Absolutely. 
If you were to launch a shadow 

568
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,100
HOA and have a similar contract 
with them that bypass the other 

569
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:45,300
contract, then Court battle. 
Very interesting one. 

570
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:48,500
Yeah, but it makes a lot more 
sense when we say Court battle, 

571
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,800
right? 
History tells us that there are 

572
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,700
international courts and or 
bodies that will adjudicate the 

573
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:56,900
aftermath of seizures of 
territory, just the same as a 

574
00:30:56,908 --> 00:31:00,200
local Court, will adjudicate a 
shadow HOA. 

575
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,400
Sure, there was an international
body that was stood up in the 

576
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,800
aftermath of World War Two. 
That said hey we're gonna go 

577
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,700
back to the way things were and 
oh, by the way things are going 

578
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,400
to change a little bit and 
redistribution that's no 

579
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,500
different than, you know. 
Circuit Court, 506 coming in and

580
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:18,800
being like well, existing HOA, 
you guys broke your contract, 

581
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,900
you didn't provide you Services,
I told my word, right? 

582
00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:24,100
But you did do decent, you know,
cetera, cetera cetera. 

583
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,500
Again, we're on this trail of 
non-government. 

584
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:29,200
Entities can perform governance 
and that gives us great ways to 

585
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,900
frame this in terms of this 
return and efficiency things 

586
00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:36,200
that we can test not. 
We meaning me but just that are 

587
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,400
testable is very interesting. 
Sure. 

588
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:42,800
So, do you have any last 
thoughts or summary on the 

589
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,500
paper? 
You'd like to put out there now,

590
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:48,400
I'll just say, you know, if 
didn't in reading the research 

591
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,500
in total, it will be published 
on TGs Digital Library, some 

592
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:54,300
time. 
At the end of summer, I will 

593
00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:57,400
send a link once it gets 
published, if you're interested 

594
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,600
in Reading anything else that 
I've written, there's also 

595
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,800
another thesis from my time at 
CGS, see, on there that I'm very

596
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,600
interested in Sharing out there 
so about a concept called rice 

597
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,100
As Weapons. 
It's all that. 

598
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:09,400
I'll just say it was a great 
conversation. 

599
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,200
I really enjoyed the time, and 
thanks for thanks for having me.

600
00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:15,700
So, anytime I You getting on 
thanks for listening. 

601
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:19,300
If you get a chance, please like
And subscribe and rate the show 

602
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,100
on your favorite podcast 
platform. 

603
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,600
Also, if you're interested in 
coming on the show or hosting an

604
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,700
episode, email us at see a 
podcasting at gmail.com? 

605
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:32,200
I'll have the email and see 
association website in the show 

606
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,100
notes. 
And now most importantly to 

607
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,600
those currently out in the 
field, working with a partner 

608
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,900
Nations, people or leadership to
forward us relations. 

609
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:42,700
Thank you all for what you're 
doing. 

610
00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:46,500
This is Jack, your host, stay 
tuned for more. 

611
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:49,300
Great episodes one, see a 
podcast. 

612
00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:46,500
This is Jack, your host, stay 
tuned for more. 

613
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:49,300
Great episodes one, see a 
podcast.