People often say, well, if it's all this false stuff, why do
they have credibility? Why does anyone believe their
version of the story? Well, they don't care if you
believe their version of the story and while we care about
information fratricide and getting our narrative consistent
and correct, they do not all of their separate units operate
independently. And if they disprove, even each
other's stories, they don't care about that because their goal is
not to get the target audience to believe what they're saying.
Their goal is to so enough, confusion and uncertainty in the
decision space. That people go.
Well, I don't know if that's true or not.
So I'm not going to do anything about it.
I'm going to sit and wait with Tesla government's Knowledge
Management Solutions. You're adding a strategic
partner that helps unleash the full power and potential of your
institutional information. Let us unpack your data and put
your knowledge to work, learn more at Tesla gov.com.
Elsie 38, brand.com the Civil Affairs Lifestyle.
Brand a little bit of something for everybody t, shirts, polos
shorts, hats Flags, posters for your walls and stickers for
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and Warrior diplomats at Fort, Bragg alike, Elsie 38 brand.com,
it's cool to like, your job. This is our first of two
episodes talking with Majors Brian Hancock and Jack gains
about the theater information Advantage element.
Enjoy the show. Jack gains is an Army Reserve
officer who works as a policy and strategic advisor in the
Washington DC area. You also leads a social movement
called 46 x, the fight, to perform DOD public affairs.
Jack's education includes a master's degree in communication
management from the USC Annenberg school for
communication and journalism. Major Brian Hancock was the CEO
of a small information company. For 16 years.
He enlisted in the US Army in 2005 and went forward to serve
the nation in Afghanistan. He's currently the G9 in charge
of civil military operations. For the 79th.
Theater sustainment command. The second largest military unit
in the Department of Defense. Major Hancock is Mos qualified
for and has served in intelligence, psychological
operations, and civil Affairs as a civilian.
He's the deputy for the Marine Corps, ground Center of
Excellence, Advanced Training Department, located, in
Twentynine Palms, California. He has been published in the
National Federation of advanced Information Services.
The military intelligence professionals Bolton small Wars
journal. The Pentagon strategic
multi-layer assessment in the Civil Affairs, issues papers.
This Man possesses bachelor's degrees in political science and
psychology. A master of science in
management and National Security and certifications and project
management leadership in energy and environmental design and
adult learning. Hi, and welcome to the one.
See a podcast. My name is John Miguel.
Get your host for today's episode and we're joined by two
majors talking about the theater information, Advantage element,
T IA, e, a quick disclaimer for everyone or marks.
Are those of the presenters? And do not represent the views
of the US Army or Department of Defense gentlemen, welcome to
the show. Thanks John.
It's really great to be here. Appreciate it.
Hey John glad to be here. Thank you.
Yeah, we're glad to have you on the show to talk about this
theater information Advantage, element.
We want to talk about why it matters implications for the
military. And I understand the right now,
it's an experimental formation that's under review by somebody
somewhere and we'll try to get to that later.
But first, I want to set the stage for listeners by Being a
few things, some terms like convergence information related
capabilities in which activities fall under that umbrella of ircs
and what Gap in capability. This new approach this theater
information Advantage element. RT iae is we may refer to it in
the show. What keep ability Gap is this a
new approach trying to fill. First of all the theater
information Advantage, element is not a single formation.
It's an actual on formation. So, it's all the way up to the
co-commander. All the way down to, about the
Battalion level, depending on the nature of the mission
involved. Your question, has three
components to it. John will answer those in turn.
The first is, what is what is this idea of convergence?
And how is that new? What is happening to our
traditional information related capabilities in this formation?
And what gaps could this new experiment information
potentially fill for the Department of Defense.
So when we talk about convergence, which is at the
heart of this new capability is what we're trying to achieve
with the T IA e. This actually originated a
number of years ago in the intelligence Community.
We were studying something called complex, adaptive systems
theory, in complex, adaptive systems an individual agent,
such as the head of a power plant, in a city can affect an
entire system, say the power system of that City.
Simply by pushing a button and turning it off in which case all
of the citizens of that City or the Agents of that system will
all change their behavior in response.
So an agent can change a system and a system can change the
behavior of all of its agents. These are very complicated
systems and as we try to attack these systems in our 20 years of
coin fights. What we were finding is that
when we made an impact with one of our capabilities, He was just
not Battlefield significant, we can make a slight gain and then
if we roll back, we didn't have a lasting effect on those
systems. So this develop something called
the concept of parallel attack where instead of just doing one
thing in a system on its own, you make a whole bunch of
interrelated efforts doing exact attempting to achieve exactly
the same effect simultaneously over time.
And that had the potential to move that system.
In a sustainable way. Well a few years go by and that
evolved into this concept of convergence.
Convergence takes the concept of parallel attack in a complex
adaptive system and it adds to it elements of being rapid and
continuous integrated in all domains.
Also the electromagnetic spectrum and the information
environment with the goal of optimizing, the over match
against the enemy, through cross-domain synergies and About
forms of attack. Now that's the textbook
definition from the operational and organizational Concepts.
I Know Jack, you probably have a better way of saying that I'll
have it to you. This is why I work with Brian so
much as he's beautiful on the technicals and the doctrine.
And then I mash it all together and too big in a primordial soup
and say, this is what it is. And basically, as I've seen it
convergence is the evolution of the siloed approach, like Brian
was saying, you know, No. We at first, you know, conflict
was managed through a rush of people all on an issue and then
we've become specialized. Now, we're shifting back to
removing some of those silos and becoming more unified and
convergent in our efforts. And I believe it comes from, you
know, people who have deployed and experienced operations in
the field because that's where an evolving concept like this
would come from, it's different from current policies and that
you have a tie. Group that everyone pitches in
to get through the mission. Often people are used to that
efficiency in smaller groups. The what this is trying to do is
establish it at the command level and remove some of that
frustration and bureaucracy from the process.
So I suspect that the convergence movement is an
attempt to recapture some of the field, operational efficiency,
and bring it to a more established command level,
right? Thanks for that Jack.
Let's talk a little bit about information, while your
capabilities and what's happening with them in the
theater information, Advantage element.
The new experimental Doctrine is moving away from formations as a
siloed capability. So, in the coin fight, where we
had an ew section, A psyop Team, a civil Affairs, team of public
affairs, team information, operations, military deception,
and operational security, operating and training largely
independently and then getting together.
Other once, they go to theater in large-scale combat operations
at the speed of Modern Warfare, the military's realized that is
not going to be an effective approach to achieve the effects
that need to be achieved in the compressed time frames that they
need to be achieved in especially in dense Urban
environments where we suspect we will be fighting future Wars.
So what the theater information advantages?
Element has done is its D emphasized.
And I are see as an MOS and a single capability and it's now
emphasizing something called information, Advantage
activities and information Advantage, activities are things
that many other formations will participate in not just the
traditional information related capabilities.
So, to achieve information, Advantage, activities, you have
DOD information network operations, intelligence
operations, This operations, integrated joint, special
technical operations, cyberspace operations, and others.
You could even have maneuver units that through their
position posture and profile are achieving an information related
effect. So they're attempting to bring
all of these together and synchronize them under a single
umbrella in order to achieve information Advantage for
Windows of time, that the maneuver Force particularly on
offense. I will exploit to achieve the
Commander's in state Jack. Do you want to talk a little bit
about that? Yeah, that's that's brilliant.
Brian. And and the thing that I always
like to stress with it is, you know, the capabilities
individually and combined are important, but it's also how
they're applied. That's critical a lot of, you
know, current military. Thinking these days is based on
one-off events. You know, targets are one-off
focused events breach operations, drone strikes,
single Item targeting that is narrowly focused and we need to
break through that. We need to get into what's
called persistent engagement where we either have a rheostat
on our enemy's actions that we can drag their efforts down or
open space up. If we want to take advantage of
their momentum information, Advantage by definition is
persistent. So whether it's an IO or J-3 Ops
person or other element, that's leading the effort the The key
is to converge all the capabilities and successes and
energies of the different elements together to
persistently operate in the contested space and that builds
support while stigmatizing, you know, competitors and
adversaries. So, in concept, it sounds easy,
but in practice, it's much harder to do.
Right? Thanks, Jack.
John, let's move on to the your question about gaps and what
gaps the T. I am a feel for the military.
I want to talk We about to gaps. The first is the gap.
We touched on previously about these separate silos of
Excellence, where we have civil Affairs training in one unit in
one groups, I often another unit and another group, you know,
electronic warfare separate etcetera and then they only get
together either at the mobilization side of the
reservist or when they're doing a large exercise or deploying if
they're in the active component, and what we're finding is the
speed of Modern Warfare, that that's just too Too little too
late, especially when you're looking at the increasing number
of dynamic targets that you can have in Modern Warfare and in
the dense Urban environment. So this breaks down those silos
by bringing all of these different elements together in
the same formation and they live work.
Eat Sleep Train plan work. Oh, plans.
Develop branches and sequels refers execute all together and
their station. Assistant forward.
So they're doing all those things in the actual environment
where they're going to execute so it's a huge leap forward.
In terms of how that force is built, men trained plans and
execute operations to synergize effects and the second Gap that
we all have to talk about. As soon as we talked about
anything in the information environment is authorities.
Now, traditionally authorities, follow the command.
That is in the region. Usually, Ali under the combatant
commander for that area of responsibility and those very
widely. Some formations have a fair
amount of authority and others have very little but rarely if
ever do they have all the immediate Thor?
Teas. They need to be effective from
day Zero. Well, the theater information
Advantage. Element has very broad
authorities for all of those things.
Including National Technical assets such as space and And
cyber delegated down to it, just like the CJC SI withstanding
authorities, they have that from Day.
Zero anywhere. They go forward in the rear Etc.
So they do not have to go through those traditional
lengthy and inefficient approval processes, to achieve the
authorities. They need Jack.
I know you have some experience with that, especially in public
affairs. You want to talk about that
first off to to summarize Brian's point, you know, the ti
e finds communicators and Signal platforms and it actually cuts
through nine types of silos to focus on the mission.
That's cutting nine forms of bureaucracy to get to the
effect. And that's that's amazing.
And as far as the authorities, most of the time, I see one
element, or another getting frustrated because they need
specific authorities, complete a mission.
Usually though another element has a similar Authority or
capability that can cover the gap.
I see this all the time and it kills me because we waste so
much time. Trying to gain authorities for
one element when another element or organization has that
capability and just needs to be asked and then they can get the
permission and help. And so we need to get past that.
This is where I hope the T iae cuts through and makes
operations more efficient. We'll take a short break and
when we come back, we'll continue our conversation with
Majors gains and hand cock will be right back after a word from
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You like your job? Welcome back to the one.
See a podcast today, our guests are major Jack gains and Brian
Hancock. We're talking about the theater
information, Advantage element or t IA e John.
I think we could probably spend most of the podcasts unpacking.
This, this great question, you asked, but I know your listeners
one at want to hear about some of the other items.
So if it's okay with you, let's move on to the second question.
Yeah let's do that. I really appreciate that
gentlemen. I'm it's clear that you're well
versed in this. Like I care a lot about it and
it reminds me of two things that come to mind.
I grew up born in 79 and I remember this animated show
called Voltron. It's kind of like you're fusing
together, all these different pieces to make a giant.
Voltron that's going to be stronger and more Nimble and
more effective and then there was not 11.
And what comes to mind for that is the fusion cells, the
intelligence Fusion cells cells, which just proliferated around
the country, every count. Auntie and state for emergency
response and their EOC they created versions of fusion cells
and businesses. Now Fusion cells.
So hopefully that's where this goes, and you'll see the effects
of it as well. Gentlemen, I wanted to apply
this to a real world scenario. So if the T iae existed today,
how would you say it could be employed to support American
efforts that are going on right now in support of Ukraine?
In the fight against Russia? Brian.
Thanks for the John I know we're all following.
You praying very closely for a variety of reasons.
So this is a very prescient question to ask.
So it lets say that NATO was involved in this fight and a
formation like the ti e was present.
The first thing we need to understand in the Gia is well
positioned to understand is the way our enemy in this case, it
would be Russia. Conducts their information
operations, and information Warfare their most utilize.
Micah's, what Rand and others have called the firehose of
falsehood, where they just litter the information space,
and not just social media Airwaves print multispectral.
Absolutely everything. They flooded with all kinds of
disconnected, disjointed, theories and statements
alternate views and explanations of events.
And they're very skilled at this, because their information,
Warfare battalions. Doctrine, Li are already
integrated formations that train and plan together.
They don't come together at a mobile site or deployment like
our dues. They already have a standing
capability that has some elements of the ti in it.
And those information Warfare battalions, are traditionally
organized, under Russia's, reconnaissance intelligence,
surveillance and Target acquisition or rishta brigades
and they have backing all the way up to strategic.
Communication. So there have been powerful and
effective and have traditionally out cyclist in the information
space in a number of instances show that if we bring the ti
into the table, one of the things we can do is understand
how Russia does business and begin to counter that.
And one of the things that we need to understand about Russian
information, Warfare, people often say, well, if it's all
this false stuff, why do they have credibility?
Why does anyone believe their version of the story?
Well, they don't care if you believe their version of the
story and while we care about information fratricide and
getting our narrative consistent and correct, they do not all of
their separate units operate independently.
And if they disprove, even each other's stories, they don't care
about that because their goal is not to get the target audience
to believe. What they're saying, their goal
is to so enough, confusion and uncertainty in the decision
space that people go. Well, I don't know if that's
true or not. So I'm not going to do anything
about it. I'm going to sit and wait and as
we sit and wait Russia then accomplishes a fait accompli.
And it's too late eventually. Okay, so that's that's how they
operate Jack. You want to give a more specific
example of what we could do to counter Russian information
Warfare and then I'll give a couple of specific capabilities
that the CIA would bring to your current sure.
Sure, no problem. Hey, what you're talking about
is the fear and uncertainty. There's a concept called Fudd Fu
D and that means fear, uncertainty and doubt.
And that is a counter. That's a propaganda and
counter-propaganda practice that's been codified.
So you are absolutely on on the money and it's and it comes from
politics. Actually, the root is from one
political party or another filling the information space
with a lot. Out of Doubt around a bill that
they don't want to get enough votes.
And what that does is it creates hesitation in the voting
audience. It reduces the amount of support
and producing, you just get this, terrible vote response and
you don't get your vote passed because it was, you know, killed
by Fu D. Now, for Ukraine, I've got a
more theoretical example. It's more applied and this is
what I would do. I would have T.I a based out of
Poland and have civil Affairs. Tactical PA psyop, go To you
created work with the locals to expose Russian actions that go
against their propaganda and would also shift their
population of support base. For example, having them go in
and go to the Russian soldier, grave sites, and holding sites
and identify the bodies. Go through the work of getting
the photo, and the identification and the DNA.
And then using cyber, and space Ops to Signal those next, Akins
and provide them the information.
Ation so that they can go and prove that their soldiers son
and daughter. We're in the fight and have been
killed despite Russia line about and saying that there's only
been 100 people dead. And what that does is it exposes
the propaganda and forces the Russian Administration to answer
to it and provide the truth. And by doing that, by leveraging
against their own propaganda, with tangible, proof it creates
frustration and resistance in the support base.
Makes it harder for them to have widespread support in the base.
It starts to slow down, you know, production and finance
because people know that their sons and daughters are being
slipped off to get killed and they're not being told about it.
Additionally, we could set up scenarios where we could capture
video of Russian selling equipment or Starving in the
field because their Commander spent the money right now.
Russian attitudes are mixed by showing how the country and
administration is not supporting the troops by line to the
public. It would shift that unified
attitude in country and every time Putin tries to avoid a
heart issue. We would put it out to the
public with proof so that you would have to answer to his
base, which would include the police, and security forces, and
the political body that surround him.
And that's how you use the ti in a persistent effort, to
undermine your adversary. And push the Coalition cause
Frank you got anything. Yeah.
Thanks for that specific. Applied example to make a real
for the listeners, I'll give seven very brief lines of effort
that the Gia would also execute jointly with what Jack
described. And the first one is very, very
important. The in the experiment we found
that the ti e significantly increased lethality of kinetic,
Munitions and many folks, In combat arms, may be surprised to
hear that because traditionally information work, there is
construed with less than lethal or non-lethal effects, but it
actually has a very significantly but component to
it because what we're finding is these new high generation
platforms, that our adversaries are our building and Land Air
and sea. Have a lot of protective
capability or are hard to find in Target and are difficult to,
to strike with one. Or even a redundant set of
Munitions. But if you add, in the
continuous multi, spectral shaping operations, from the ti
e, against these high value, High platform targets, the
kinetic kill rates go through the roof.
So something that you, you might get lucky to hit and Achieve
either. A total kill or Mobility kill on
with conventional kinetic, Munitions and conventional
doctor. Aaron when it's t.i. enhanced,
you're getting a kill almost every time.
So that's one thing significantly increase the load
Valatie of all strikes and Munitions that that would be
occurring in the battle space. Another thing model the effects
of enemy information attacks for the longest time when we were
doing, say the wars in the last 20 years.
When the enemy would do something we'd get a bunch of
subject matter experts together and we'd ask the question.
Hey do we need to counter that We just let it die and we suck
up this bandwidth with this panel of sneeze and it would
take time to do that and then we would just based upon our
opinion. Decide what action if any we
would take now at the speed of modern warfare that's not going
to be satisfactory anymore and we don't need to do that.
We have capabilities now with enhanced by Ai and other systems
that allow us to actually model these information attacks and it
quantitatively In fashion using scientific principles one
technology that does. This is pulse by 26
Technologies. It's an excellent product and it
allows you to very quickly. Determine if a message, Amy, my
memo plaques on narrative is gaining external brokerage and
growing or whether it is simply a recirculating insignificant
subgroups that we do not need to to potentially waste Resources
with an intervention. Type of modeling is something we
should be doing for every single information attack.
So that we properly utilize are very precious resources to only
counter those which actually matter and the ti a is equipped
to be able to do that. Another thing we need to talk
about is, is competition. Most of this Warfare is
competition. We've heard about say China
winning without fighting. That is absolutely their
strategy and if you take a look at how Oh, they've locked up
Africa. For instance, it is becoming a
successful strategy, phase 3 and major combat dominate operations
become irrelevant if we lose in competition and our conventional
military force. For a variety of reason is not
currently structured. In pastured to achieve the
majority of its effects and competition as a persistent
forward formation with significant standing and
continuous influence, capabilities, native to the
aors, in which they operate. The ti e will do a tremendous
amount in this hypothetical situation of Ukraine both before
and after dominate operations, hopefully preventing Warfare all
together which would be a gigantic return on investment.
It will provide a significant deception operations.
Deception is critical at this age of Modern Warfare.
A Target. That can be detected.
Can be destroyed Munitions, or small and powerful and it's
through things like deception. Either increasing ambiguity or
reducing ambiguity, on the battlefield that we keep our
assets alive. Gia has significant capabilities
to do this at all levels gain and maintain the initiative and
the operational information environment.
This is where an enemy like Russia has traditionally
dominated the space in an exercise that we do either
service level or joint. Maybe we'll have a dozen
information, injects per hour we have to deal with.
In the real world, Russia will Dumping thousands per hour and
our traditional formations will not be able to keep up with
that. We will quickly lose the
initiative. The ti a while.
So flood the oie similar to what Russia is doing but instead of
disambiguated Fudd with positive truth and messaging which was
going to bolster our allies and help us use the moral High
ground. It's very important.
The moral High Ground may not matter in an individual battle
or engagement but if you want strategic success which has been
elusive, we've When you know winning every battle and losing
every war since World War Two, we need to seize and own that
moral High Ground at the end of the day to achieve US policy
objectives. And finally the Gia has an
unprecedented ability to get inside the observe Orient decide
after food of loop as John Boyne coined it of the enemy.
It will allow us to isolate them disrupt, their combined arms,
formations to the extent. They use them paralyzed, their
decision-making harm. The Now, and reduce their
freedom of movement. So, those are some of the just
examples of the types of things John that the ti a would do.
If this was a native fight in the arena in Ukraine over
gentlemen. Thank you so much.
I think that's very helpful for listeners to apply it to a
place. That's well conflict that's
going on right now. I want to go back though because
I think I didn't get to give you guys a chance to respond to what
my thought was with that t.i. is this amalgamation of existing
capabilities? Personnel that are across the
ircs, the information related capabilities and whether this
already exists. And so, I know you've come up
with this approach and pitching the TA.
But is it true? That this is essentially a
grouping of existing capabilities in a new formation
at different echelons? And does it already exists and
if not, why not? So, what you're asking is, did
we just take the salad re toss and add some new dressing on
top? Yes.
Right. Yes.
And no. I see it as an evolution in
conflict and warfare design. We're taking existing
capabilities. Yes, but we're building a for
mission that fits the current fight.
And that's, that's what the hang-up is.
Like I had said earlier, all of the silos where all of these
different elements were existing and thriving in their own
singular World. We're not creating the effect
that we need in. We're fair to actually teach
actually win. And so this is an attempt to
combine. Those Brian mentioned
competition in my work. I see competition as Conflict by
other means than war and this includes extensive influence and
hybrid operations, which is a core 2T i-a and civil Affairs
operations. So, to do this, we're taking
existing capabilities and building a formation.
That fits the current fight. Brian.
You got any thoughts? Yes, a very good question, John,
just for the audience, three specific things which are
distinctly unique to the T iae. The first is persistent forward
presence with many of these information capabilities,
traditionally, in the reserve. Getting the mobilize, getting
them on a toss orders, getting them to where they can make a
difference before. It's too late has been very
difficult, you know, we've had attempts to do this with task
Force's Tiana, which is now been folded.
In 20 pick but we have not cracked the code on that and if
you're not in the game, you cannot win the game.
So by being persistent forward in the actual operating
environment, these folks are going to get unprecedent
expertise in the areas in which they operate, and they can
immediately and continuously respond 24/7 in the ti e, so
persistent for presence is one. The second point is that they
have these powerful standing authorities all the Up to
National Technical capabilities. No.
Existing formation has that right now and every IRC has
separate authorities and often separate approval processes,
that ends with the DIA they have it from the minute they're
consummated. And they take it with them
wherever they go, both forward and rear.
And the third is getting back to your Voltron analogy John which
is the Gestalt principle, right? And the Gestalt principle is
that the whole is greater Greater than the sum of the
individual parts and the analogy.
I like to use here is of a football team, okay?
Right now, the way we've used information related
capabilities, completely siloed, training planning executing
oftentimes independently with a little bit of overlap in this
scenario. Imagine every single player on a
football team has to try and make a touchdown because he
doesn't know if anyone else has a plan to make a touchdown or
how they're going to get it and they don't know how they're
going to. This one another.
So every one of them has the plan to pick up the football and
go all the way down to the end zone.
You can imagine how inefficient that would be in a real football
game. Okay, but by using Gestalt
principle, by putting them together, eating living
training, working planning rehearsing executing together on
the actual football field, which the Gia does.
Now they work as a team because we know at the end of the day to
win a football game, only one person on that team has to
score. Or but everyone else has a
critical role help them score. That is the Synergy and
capability you gained through the Gestalt principle by putting
these together in a persistent forward formation.
Is that answer the question John it does.
And that analogy I think it's very helpful for people to
understand that in this new structure you would clearly have
a chain of command. You'd have people as the
quarterback, you have the Special Teams you have defense
and offense and so on and working as a team, Makes a lot
of sense and from the my see a perspective and my personal
experience of the last several years.
Yeah I mean if you're less than effective right now or you want
to be more effective going forward, we're trying to do more
training with other ircs. Then why not try this out?
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It's cool to like your job.