Weapons the one, see a podcast. This is your host Jack gains.
When CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and
brings in people who are current or former military diplomats
development officers and field agents to discuss their
experiences on ground for the partner Nations people.
And Leadership our goal is to inspire anyone interested in
working the last three feet of foreign relations to Act, the
show email us at see a podcasting at gmail.com, or look
us up on the Civil Affairs, association website at
www.flcfs.org. I'll have those in the show
notes. Hello, it's Chris.
Hey, Chris is Jack Gates. How you doing, man?
I'm good jack. Hold on my my earbuds are not
functioning the way that they really must.
Exactly. There we go.
Okay, hello. Hey, Chris dang.
Okay, I'm just going to take these out if that's funny.
It rings in the ear buds, but then the audio doesn't come
through a. Can you hear me?
All right. Yeah, I could hear you find some
good to go. Today, I'm speaking with Chris
Hislop, executive director of the Montana world affairs
Council. Press worked for the United
Nations, and prior to that with the United States, Peace Corps,
and other humanitarian, organizations, around the world.
In this episode, we discuss the role of Peace Corps in u.s.
foreign policy and he gives advice on how to cooperate with
humanitarian efforts in the field and talk through a couple
examples. You're going to really enjoy
this discussion so let's get going.
It's good to hear from you again.
Yeah, yeah. No I appreciate the opportunity.
This was cool. Can you were Peace Corps before
you went into the UN, right? I was the bulb.
Is that like I don't know if a lot of people that are on this
show have ever experienced the Peace Corps or bumped into him
when there were CA officers. But can you talk about that?
Well, I'd be happy to Jack because I say this without
exaggeration, it was really one of the most important things I
ever did in my life. Did I say that kind of looking
back? But I say that presently who I
am and what I'm doing was shaped massively by the two years as a
Peace Corps. Volunteer.
So I was two years in Kyrgyzstan which is in Central Asia in the
former Soviet Central Asia and this was in the 90s.
This is just a couple years after the All of the Soviet
Union and so it was amazing in that for me.
I was the first American, many, many people ever saw or met or
what have you. So as quite novel, would you
just walk down the street? And people would be giving you
the big I like, who is that dude.
Yeah, you got a lot of that, but you learn quickly, what clothes
to wear, how to walk where to go.
So you're kind of trying the best you can to fit into the new
culture without seeing your own sense of morals and values,
right? You need to be able to live and
work in a different place and that's challenging and fun, and
interesting. I loved it.
And it's a great thing. When you look at the American
toolbox, yeah we have the 3D's of course, and the development D
of Defense diplomacy and development lives.
The Peace Corps. And by all accounts, a hugely
effective tool in engaging people around the world because
Of our original points in our discussion.
Jack was about this real ground level stuff course things happen
in the heady Heights of Capitol Hill and you know state
department. But when you're on the ground
you are a part of a community. Like I was in Peace Corps,
right? I mean, this is where people
really get to know America sure that the other American that
people were learning at that. Place at that time was Jean.
Claude Van Damme movies. I mean it was like that.
Yeah, because that stuff like videotapes got there and it was
all karate stuff. So they think everyone jumps off
of buildings and karate chops. Their breakfast for chops are
eggs. I mean, it's silly but true and
then volunteer you're there for two years.
So it's not like a parachute in and run out, you're there,
right? And you get to know people, they
get to know you and I tell you, I just think it's one of the
most effective tools in the Erica toolbox.
That is it is insulated from political consideration.
So although there is some political consideration to where
are these volunteers going to go for?
How long doing what at me? There's decisions that are made
but you're not a political tool. It's super clear to begin with.
No one ever asks you you know you have to be sure that you
tell the kyrgyz people that this is a good thing that America
does. No they never have you do that.
That's not how the Peace Corps works right?
Right, not at all. They can't do it.
You've got to stay pretty neutral and impartial and
independent from that stuff in order to get your work done in
order to stay safe. So, anyway, I could go on for
days on this one Jack, but it was great for me.
I loved it. Pull, you know, you brought up
something interesting and, and it kinda reminds me of that book
The First 90 days and that you good on ground, and it ruined.
And like I said, everyone is kind of giving you the big I
seen what you do, but then you start getting into a routine
with your community and you start wearing your clothes that
they're kind of After will with even though you're still wearing
your American stuff as well. Yep.
And I bet at some point because the gossip it shoots out there.
Hey, we've got this American living in the village or in this
part of town. And I bet at some point it
became a source of Pride for that little Locale, that there's
an American living there. And they say, yeah, he's
friendly and he gets his, he gets his child were here and he
gets his, you know, breakfast over there and he gets his
groceries down the street. And because I noticed that, even
in Germany, when I was living in, In Germany.
Is that? They had a curiosity.
Yeah. And it wasn't just the military,
but it was the American Engineers.
Now the street or the state department person down the other
Road, it was just curious for him to see people from around
the world living there and doing their own little routine.
So I think that must be part of what builds that trust in their
daily routine. Yeah, spot on that.
It does normalize over time more or less.
There is definitely as you Source of Pride.
I mean, I'll give you an example.
I was in a kind of provincial capital, so it was more of a
town, not a village that there were plenty of my friends Peace
Corps, volunteers who were out in the village and this one guy,
you know, he was a language, brain guy, you know, some people
just learn languages, right? And this guy learned, the kyrgyz
language, like fluently. I hate that and it was just, it
was weird. That's what it was.
Yeah. Well, so it was a huge source of
Of Pride for that Village that this guy because they took part
in it, you know, they helped him, they helped him learn and
they felt this enormous pride. And so, just as a Peace Corps,
volunteer, as with a civil Affairs officer, anybody who's
doing work like this, you know? That thing is good, right?
But that thing has a benefit Way Beyond that Pride right
suddenly. Yes, when the community around
you is invested in you taking pride in you, knowing you
comfortable around you. You're taken care of you.
Just like we do in our communities here in America.
By the way, sure there's nothing unusual about that Dynamic.
We tend to think of strange, but it's not.
It's the total normal human thing.
You get to know somebody and you're like, I got to look out
for this guy, you know, he's not from here.
He doesn't know our ways and he needs some help, and I'm going
to look out for him. So, in Kyrgyzstan, there was not
a huge security problem except for public drunkenness and I'm
particularly in the evening. Not but it was really serious
and you had to sure it's not downtown d.c., you had to be
super careful about that and so your ability to get with your
community and have them look out for you was the primary part of
your personal security. Sure, the more that the
community accepted you and that's also what humanitarians
do. I mean that's the primary
security concern for And staff is you want to be accepted and
if you're accepted you can count on improve security.
You can't for humanitarians. There's no guns.
There's nothing that they can do to protect themselves that way,
but they do it in this other way and I think that would be no
surprise to civil Affairs officers.
Yeah. Because we're not heavily
armored either. We don't come in with Bradley's,
right? We have to come in and it's our
force of Personality that really keeps us say yeah, that's a
great point. It was something else.
I thought about as you were saying that this is what hit me
as you were talking about, all that work, that you and your
fellows did in Kyrgyzstan. I bet you that diplomats and Aid
workers working in the Keurig. He's region.
I bet they still have benefits from that because you were there
and you created that initial reaction that spark of
collaborative and trust and I bet you there were still reaping
the benefits from it, there's Doubt Jack, the Peace Corps has
three goals and I think they achieve them.
Well, first goal is to provide American expertise to foreign
countries whether you're an English teacher and agronomist a
small business Expert, you know, whatever the Peace Corps brings
out, technical expertise to support country.
The second goal is to expose Americans to the world so that
the volunteer can learn about the world and understand how the
world works. And the third goal which is
interesting. And I'm performing the third
goal right now, which is when a Peace Corps, volunteer comes
back to the United States. The goal is to engage Americans
in what happened and what goes on in the world because of your
your service? I don't see a lot of Peace Corps
discussion though, out there. Well, you don't see a lot of
Peace Corps discussion, but there's two reasons for that.
Number one, is a enormous percentage of Peace Corps.
Volunteers Overseas like I did for 20 years so I finished my
service and I stayed overseas right.
The second thing is when I speak to the public, I'm speaking as
the executive director of the Montana world affairs Council
now. But every time I do it, I make a
three-sentence mention. I say I was a Peace Corps.
Volunteer, the third goal was from me to do these things, and
I am performing that goal right now, right?
Thanks to you the American taxpayer because that's how I
got there. And So, I'm delivering on that
goal and I'm turning it. There's not a lot of dedicated
stuff, but there's a lot of people like me.
Who do jobs, like me, who are returned Peace Corps,
volunteers, who do engage our communities in international
issues. Sure, I just as a communicator.
I see the Peace Corps as under represented in the public
conscience. Yeah.
It comes and goes depending on the administration and the
politics in Washington. But yeah, it's also a very low
budgeted thing. They don't get a lot of money
and so there isn't a lot of time spent engaging the American
public, maybe they could do some more but check this out.
Jack last month, my organization, we did the number
of webcasts to bring International careers to
students in Montana and Carol spawn.
The director of the Peace Corps, the director of The Big Cheese
came on my webcast to talk to Montana kids and so, yeah,
they've, you know, letting Americans.
You know what? What the Peace Corps does and
letting them know. Hey, it's a great opportunity.
Well, if you share those links, I'll put them on the show notes.
And if you have that cast, I'll certainly give you credit and
put it on the show as well. Happy to.
But anyway, is there any time where civil Affairs and Peace
Corps work together? You know, I don't really know
you and I could probably figure this out Jack because I'll give
you from the Peace Corps perspective.
A Peace Corps program is never fielded in a place of relative
insecurity and their bar for security is pretty high.
I mean things have to be very secure, right?
For the u.s. to deploy a group of Peace Corps.
Volunteers So that means, if you plot out the map of where Peace
Corps volunteers are, I'm guessing there's not a huge
number of uniform civil Affairs officers in those same places,
but maybe I'm wrong, I would surprise you.
There's, there's actually civil Affairs operating in Poland or
call the way to Lithuania right now and just talking about how
the US and Poland are Partners in security and defense.
Yeah, and And you know what's going on with NATO and how it
all ties together. So they do education in the
stable countries. Okay?
We're in Africa, like countries like Ghana they go down there
and they coach on how to counter Wildlife trafficking.
Yeah. They're working in Kenya but
they're they're everywhere, they really are and so they're
definitely crossing paths, but I don't know if they know how to
like meet and greet or or what because I'm not sure if they
know how many children there. Crossing paths.
Yeah and I think maybe also part of that Jack is going to be the
situation itself and you know where I was a volunteer.
There was a certain sense and I don't know if this is unique to
the time and place I was, but there was a certain sense
amongst the volunteer Bunch that we didn't want anything to do
with any other Americans. There were usaid people, there
were Embassy people, we weren't being unkind to them, but we
Also didn't seek them out because part of that Peace Corps
experience. If you really want the real
thing which most people do, you don't want to be around anybody
else? Yeah.
You want to be just in your village?
Yeah. You want to be in the village
with those people. So that is a kind of overriding
thing. However, there's another Dynamic
that occurs that may be civil Affairs.
Personnel should be aware of, is that Peace Corps.
Volunteers typically, have a primary task and that could be
like teaching English at IP small Enterprise development
forestry, and but they also are asked to do a secondary thing.
If you're a teacher, the secondary project is not in the
school, it's in the community, so you get outside of your place
of work, and you're meant to do some community support.
And in those projects, often times volunteers will partner
with say another NGO that's operating in the area or the
embassy. See which has some money like
our village needs a community center, it's going to cost ten
thousand dollars and they go scrape up some money to go to
the Embassy, in the embassy becomes a partner so that's
maybe something to think about for civil Affairs.
Personnel to know that volunteers and they're often
looking for partners who can help them pull off that project.
You know, this. That's a good point and civil
Affairs would go through the embassy to actually partner on
that. Yeah.
And and one And that I'm thinking is there's a lot of
ngos that don't like to work with the military.
Yeah when I was running application for dod's response
in Liberia to Ebola. Yep we were holding in the
embassy. All these interagency
International councils for coordinating the logistics and
testing. And what we could do to dim the
spread of Ebola, a lot of ngos wouldn't come into tent.
They wanted nothing to do with it.
They felt like it would break the trust they have Had with the
population. Yeah.
So it's a difficult thing and I can imagine that some Peace
Corps people kind of have that same, that same concern.
Yeah, there is that for sure. I'm going to pick up on the
point on humanitarians and then we can swing back around to the
volunteers. But your civil Affairs
colleagues will know their different flavors of
humanitarians. Sure, but all of them operate
under humanitarian imperative as we call it and the humanitarian
principles. And amongst those principles is
this idea of neutrality and impartiality.
And so this is where there is a difference in the use of the
word humanitarian, in this case Jack, and it's splitting hairs.
But humanitarians take this very seriously and Sherman civil
Affairs. People, the very virtue of the
fact that civil Affairs are in a military, they are partial.
Absolutely, there's no question about that.
There's nothing wrong with that, but It counters, what the
humanitarians have to live and work by because the moment a
humanitarian becomes partial in a situation then they can no
longer meet the needs of all needy people.
They're seen as partial and so maybe one group will see that
and say, We'll look, you guys are on the American side, we saw
you in the tent with them. We saw you talking to them and
so, that must mean you're with them and we're against them.
Are you can't come into our patch and help our people
anymore, you know, it can't be overstated that that part of the
humanitarian principle is at the core of humanitarian action and
without it humanitarian efforts fail and so humanitarians take
it seriously that's a little bit less.
So I would say with regard to Peace Corps, volunteers, yeah,
it's there, but Peace Corps. Volunteers are not living and
working in acting as humanitarians.
They're doing something. They are a kind of technical
support if you will cultural engagement but they're not
providing humanitarian Aid. So the situation of providing
humanitarian Aid is a contentious situation by
definition right, either in conflict or natural disaster,
right? And so, for humanitarian to
properly, be able to deliver on the work, you have to stay
neutral and impartial that's what drives that dynamic.
So here's here's an interesting hat, trick, I'm going to throw
at you. How does someone like a civil
Affairs officer or a military member or even a diplomat or Aid
worker? That's clearly in the u.s. tent.
How do they coordinate with humanitarian workers?
So that it doesn't seem to taint their impartiality.
I mean, you've got to have some kind of median in between medium
in between, right? Absolutely absolutely.
So in any situation, as you have a civil Affairs officer or
within, Civil Affairs unit. You'll have somebody with some
expertise on sieve male, humanitarian /, military
coordination. Sure humanitarians are also
practical. They're like look the military's
tier they're doing things. We still need to talk to them.
So let's be practical but let's figure out a way we can do it
and maintain our principal that's typically in than a more
formalized Forum. Where you go to the Embassy or
you meet on neutral ground at the UN or something like that.
And you have your consultations and Discussions where it gets
dicey. Frankly is out in the field.
It's less in the meeting room, right?
If you're out in the field and you're in the tent in your
scene, uniformed Personnel. Will be, they Americans or
otherwise that can really create a lot of problems for you.
And that's the area. I'm mostly concerned about
again, is out in the field. How do we, how do we create that
bridge between humanitarian operations and civil Affairs,
operations, to where we don't? Look like, we're tainting
humanitarians to seem like they're biased.
Way or another the Practical and serious and smart humanitarian
will know that they need to speak with and coordinate with
civil Affairs officers. Yeah, they know that it's not
good to be seen heatedly in public forum and be closed and
to be paying out, right? That kind of things to Affairs
officers should know. A manicure is not going to do
that. We're not going to be the
hangout person sure but both the Civil Affairs officer in the
humanitarian knows each other has things that are useful in.
Information material and what have you not?
And so finding ways to communicate that maybe are a
little bit, less public, Less in the public eye appearing to be
as one because civil Affairs officers learn like
humanitarians it in many places humanitarian.
We're like, no, I'm from this part of the UN, oh, I'm from
this other part of the UN were the only one who make that
distinction. Nobody else cares.
You know, they're like, who cares everyone?
Just sees a blue hat. You're all wearing a blue hat,
you're all what driving a white car, you know, you're all the
sin to people and so when the humanitarians are with military
personnel, it's also like that. It's like oh you're the same as
those guys and then civil Affairs officers, know this
other conundrum that you faced with in the military which is
your the ones out there talking with the village leaders, right?
But then you have infantry and fighting personnel and they're
like, wait a second. You guys are wearing the same
clothes are using, you know, are you those guys?
Are you say you're something else and it can be very
confusing. Yeah, I'll be honest, us Aid
hates having military in uniform helping support their
operations. They call them action heroes.
You know they come in a helicopter.
They got these uniforms. They're all over the place with
the karate chop pointing hands and yeah and the cameras go
right to them and they just ignore aide.
Who's the lead usually in these. Yeah humanitarian response and
they get so mad. So well, I do that.
You know, to I mean Jack that nice thing for civil Affairs
because the Oslo guidelines, those are the guidelines for
civil military cooperation. In a humanitarian situation,
from a humanitarian perspective, and it's actually quite explicit
in that document. And in that agreement
coordination and cooperation with the military is what we
would refer to as a last resort. You know, if there is a
situation where manager and Community cannot or is unable to
operate, then you go to the military.
A great example of that South Asian tsunami, right?
And absolutely beyond all belief, there's no way the
global humanitarian Community could deliver on that.
So, call in the military with it, we, it's lift and Logistics.
This is the big thing. You look at the situation, you
know, in the Balkans and the in the mid and late 90s, to sure
the need and the situation so far, outstrip the humanitarians
ability to do the work that there was like, okay, Dad, We
need the military and then you will.
Well, that's they really are the contingency of Last Hope.
Yeah. In a lot of places that make
sense and it's reasonable for the military to expect that.
I mean, that's kind of their job, right?
When everything else fails you calling these people because
they're willing to just go into the worst of it.
Yeah, an interesting discussion within the military, but broadly
speaking. You also don't want to get mired
in situations where you don't need to be there.
A lot of this humanitarian stuff is Small Potatoes.
And you know the humanitarian communities.
They're well funded doing the work and you know, you don't
want to get embroiled in that stuff.
Yeah. Well, this is the interesting
thing. My favorite civil Affairs
project is the see a team that supports an Air Force Base out
in the Augie does because the Air Force personnel actually
raise money. They donate money to the see a
team to go into the village and help the economy, the weaving
and Manufacturing, and they buy stuff, and they have class.
Festivals to build good grace between this Air Force Base and
the audit has people and it really works well and that's one
of those small town civil Affairs projects that I think
really exemplifies that similarity between Peace Corps
and CA because it's in an area that's great.
People who go out there and do the job, love it, and it's not
conflict based. Its it's just developing those
relationships so that the community and that are based can
live in peace. Yeah, you man.
Materials use the same Dynamic. The, for coming to Montana, I
was working in Myanmar, which had a huge humanitarian
operation. But if you really break that
down into little more granular, assessment of the situation, you
had people who were displaced by conflict and living in camps.
But those camps were interred dispersed amongst Villages and
those Village people were not directly affected by conflict
but living there. And essentially in the same
situation as the people in the camps, But because you are
displaced and living in a camp. You tend to get more visibility
and therefore more assistance. But when you do that, then the
people who are living in The Villages around the camp are
like hey, what's going on? I'm in the same situation, how
come they're getting free food and it creates a huge tension.
I'm going to go. Yeah, it creates a perverse
incentive. So humanitarians often like that
will also support local surrounding communities,
although they are not affected in the The same way from the
conflict or the natural disaster but they are in need and if you
don't do something there, then you're creating a problem that
you don't need in the first place.
I had never thought of that. That's that's genius.
Hey, did you ever meet Jason Tower Of The u.s.
Institute of Peace? He's the Burma country,
director. I got to advise a little bit on
the national Unity government. I met some of their folks.
And, and sat with Jason, we talked about building public
support around the national, Unity government and build
pressure on the military. That's in power to allow
Democratic rule to re-emerge in the Tree.
Oh yeah, what look you are. Sakti is an extraordinary
organization and I really sincerely admire the people who
are working there, particularly those who are out in places like
Myanmar, I spent five and a half years and I left before the
coup. So I'm not there at this time
but you know like many of us who've been out in these places
and you live with the people there and you grow to understand
them, you grow to love them, grow to appreciate them.
Them. And, you know, I can't say
enough for the people of Myanmar and and what has happened to
them and what is happening to them.
Now it's just they're not deserving of this fake and
anybody who can work on untying that not.
I really admire My Hope. Is that once we get Democratic
rule, we could also then get rid of the fentanyl camps that the
PRC supporting the knee area. We should make everyone's lives
a lot easier. Yeah.
You know, Jack that you touched
on a foreign policy field What many people think you mentioned,
once there's some democracy there, but one analysis is that
these generals who took over their intent is to suppress
opposition. Get out of the western eye for a
few years and then run a democratic election right?
In which they will win. And then they will say, well,
you westerners you wanted, this democratically elected
government. Here we are.
We're your people now. So I don't know.
One, I certainly hope that does not happen but yeah, yeah, yeah
there's no way you could have a proper election there.
Now they've been they've been trying to pursue a an election
for a while and and then in the unity government has been
pushing against it. Yeah.
That's a long road right there. Yeah the military regime has to
surrender first and leave the governance and have the unity
government or something, like it emerged to take power before.
That could happen. That's sadly, a long way off and
I feel bad for For the people who are suffering.
Yeah, me too. It's a tough time for everybody
there. So I've kept you on the phone
for an hour and a half, almost an hour and 15 minutes.
That's been great Jack. I appreciate it.
And you know, I tell you, I mean I admire what you do jack on
your podcast and I know that this is going, you know,
hopefully the Civil Affairs personnel and you know, I've
said it many times. I've got a great admiration.
Thank you for the very Be hard, work.
That you all do. Thank you.
Okay. Okay.
Well I appreciate your time. All right, you'd be.
Well, Jack. Take good care.
You too. Bye bye.
Bye. Bye.
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like
And subscribe, and rate the show on your favorite podcast
platform. Also, if you're interested in
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Now, most importantly to those currently out in the field,
working with a partner Nations people or leadership to forward
us relations. Thank you all for what you're
doing. This is Jack, your host stay
tuned for more great episodes once the a podcast