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Weapons the one, see a podcast. 
This is your host Jack gains. 

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When CA is a product of the 
Civil Affairs Association and 

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brings in people who are current
or former military diplomats 

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development officers and field 
agents to discuss their 

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experiences on ground for the 
partner Nations people. 

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And Leadership our goal is to 
inspire anyone interested in 

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working the last three feet of 
foreign relations to Act, the 

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show email us at see a 
podcasting at gmail.com, or look

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us up on the Civil Affairs, 
association website at 

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www.flcfs.org. 
I'll have those in the show 

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notes. 
Hello, it's Chris. 

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Hey, Chris is Jack Gates. 
How you doing, man? 

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I'm good jack. 
Hold on my my earbuds are not 

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functioning the way that they 
really must. 

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Exactly. 
There we go. 

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Okay, hello. 
Hey, Chris dang. 

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Okay, I'm just going to take 
these out if that's funny. 

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It rings in the ear buds, but 
then the audio doesn't come 

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through a. 
Can you hear me? 

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All right. 
Yeah, I could hear you find some

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good to go. 
Today, I'm speaking with Chris 

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Hislop, executive director of 
the Montana world affairs 

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Council. 
Press worked for the United 

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Nations, and prior to that with 
the United States, Peace Corps, 

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and other humanitarian, 
organizations, around the world.

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In this episode, we discuss the 
role of Peace Corps in u.s. 

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foreign policy and he gives 
advice on how to cooperate with 

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humanitarian efforts in the 
field and talk through a couple 

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examples. 
You're going to really enjoy 

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this discussion so let's get 
going. 

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It's good to hear from you 
again. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
No I appreciate the opportunity.

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This was cool. 
Can you were Peace Corps before 

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you went into the UN, right? 
I was the bulb. 

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Is that like I don't know if a 
lot of people that are on this 

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show have ever experienced the 
Peace Corps or bumped into him 

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when there were CA officers. 
But can you talk about that? 

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Well, I'd be happy to Jack 
because I say this without 

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exaggeration, it was really one 
of the most important things I 

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ever did in my life. 
Did I say that kind of looking 

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back? 
But I say that presently who I 

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am and what I'm doing was shaped
massively by the two years as a 

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Peace Corps. 
Volunteer. 

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So I was two years in Kyrgyzstan
which is in Central Asia in the 

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former Soviet Central Asia and 
this was in the 90s. 

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This is just a couple years 
after the All of the Soviet 

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Union and so it was amazing in 
that for me. 

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I was the first American, many, 
many people ever saw or met or 

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what have you. 
So as quite novel, would you 

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just walk down the street? 
And people would be giving you 

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the big I like, who is that 
dude. 

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Yeah, you got a lot of that, but
you learn quickly, what clothes 

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to wear, how to walk where to 
go. 

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So you're kind of trying the 
best you can to fit into the new

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culture without seeing your own 
sense of morals and values, 

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right? 
You need to be able to live and 

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work in a different place and 
that's challenging and fun, and 

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interesting. 
I loved it. 

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And it's a great thing. 
When you look at the American 

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toolbox, yeah we have the 3D's 
of course, and the development D

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of Defense diplomacy and 
development lives. 

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The Peace Corps. 
And by all accounts, a hugely 

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effective tool in engaging 
people around the world because 

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Of our original points in our 
discussion. 

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Jack was about this real ground 
level stuff course things happen

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in the heady Heights of Capitol 
Hill and you know state 

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department. 
But when you're on the ground 

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you are a part of a community. 
Like I was in Peace Corps, 

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right? 
I mean, this is where people 

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really get to know America sure 
that the other American that 

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people were learning at that. 
Place at that time was Jean. 

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Claude Van Damme movies. 
I mean it was like that. 

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Yeah, because that stuff like 
videotapes got there and it was 

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all karate stuff. 
So they think everyone jumps off

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of buildings and karate chops. 
Their breakfast for chops are 

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eggs. 
I mean, it's silly but true and 

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then volunteer you're there for 
two years. 

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So it's not like a parachute in 
and run out, you're there, 

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right? 
And you get to know people, they

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get to know you and I tell you, 
I just think it's one of the 

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most effective tools in the 
Erica toolbox. 

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That is it is insulated from 
political consideration. 

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So although there is some 
political consideration to where

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are these volunteers going to go
for? 

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How long doing what at me? 
There's decisions that are made 

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but you're not a political tool.
It's super clear to begin with. 

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No one ever asks you you know 
you have to be sure that you 

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tell the kyrgyz people that this
is a good thing that America 

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does. 
No they never have you do that. 

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That's not how the Peace Corps 
works right? 

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Right, not at all. 
They can't do it. 

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You've got to stay pretty 
neutral and impartial and 

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independent from that stuff in 
order to get your work done in 

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order to stay safe. 
So, anyway, I could go on for 

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days on this one Jack, but it 
was great for me. 

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I loved it. 
Pull, you know, you brought up 

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something interesting and, and 
it kinda reminds me of that book

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The First 90 days and that you 
good on ground, and it ruined. 

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And like I said, everyone is 
kind of giving you the big I 

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seen what you do, but then you 
start getting into a routine 

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with your community and you 
start wearing your clothes that 

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they're kind of After will with 
even though you're still wearing

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your American stuff as well. 
Yep. 

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And I bet at some point because 
the gossip it shoots out there. 

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Hey, we've got this American 
living in the village or in this

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part of town. 
And I bet at some point it 

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became a source of Pride for 
that little Locale, that there's

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an American living there. 
And they say, yeah, he's 

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friendly and he gets his, he 
gets his child were here and he 

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gets his, you know, breakfast 
over there and he gets his 

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groceries down the street. 
And because I noticed that, even

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in Germany, when I was living 
in, In Germany. 

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Is that? 
They had a curiosity. 

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Yeah. 
And it wasn't just the military,

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but it was the American 
Engineers. 

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Now the street or the state 
department person down the other

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Road, it was just curious for 
him to see people from around 

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the world living there and doing
their own little routine. 

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So I think that must be part of 
what builds that trust in their 

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daily routine. 
Yeah, spot on that. 

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It does normalize over time more
or less. 

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There is definitely as you 
Source of Pride. 

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I mean, I'll give you an 
example. 

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I was in a kind of provincial 
capital, so it was more of a 

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town, not a village that there 
were plenty of my friends Peace 

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Corps, volunteers who were out 
in the village and this one guy,

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you know, he was a language, 
brain guy, you know, some people

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just learn languages, right? 
And this guy learned, the kyrgyz

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language, like fluently. 
I hate that and it was just, it 

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was weird. 
That's what it was. 

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Yeah. 
Well, so it was a huge source of

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Of Pride for that Village that 
this guy because they took part 

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in it, you know, they helped 
him, they helped him learn and 

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they felt this enormous pride. 
And so, just as a Peace Corps, 

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volunteer, as with a civil 
Affairs officer, anybody who's 

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doing work like this, you know? 
That thing is good, right? 

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But that thing has a benefit Way
Beyond that Pride right 

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suddenly. 
Yes, when the community around 

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you is invested in you taking 
pride in you, knowing you 

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comfortable around you. 
You're taken care of you. 

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Just like we do in our 
communities here in America. 

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By the way, sure there's nothing
unusual about that Dynamic. 

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We tend to think of strange, but
it's not. 

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It's the total normal human 
thing. 

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You get to know somebody and 
you're like, I got to look out 

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for this guy, you know, he's not
from here. 

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He doesn't know our ways and he 
needs some help, and I'm going 

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to look out for him. 
So, in Kyrgyzstan, there was not

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a huge security problem except 
for public drunkenness and I'm 

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particularly in the evening. 
Not but it was really serious 

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and you had to sure it's not 
downtown d.c., you had to be 

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super careful about that and so 
your ability to get with your 

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community and have them look out
for you was the primary part of 

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your personal security. 
Sure, the more that the 

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community accepted you and 
that's also what humanitarians 

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do. 
I mean that's the primary 

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security concern for And staff 
is you want to be accepted and 

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if you're accepted you can count
on improve security. 

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You can't for humanitarians. 
There's no guns. 

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There's nothing that they can do
to protect themselves that way, 

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but they do it in this other way
and I think that would be no 

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surprise to civil Affairs 
officers. 

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Yeah. 
Because we're not heavily 

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armored either. 
We don't come in with Bradley's,

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right? 
We have to come in and it's our 

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force of Personality that really
keeps us say yeah, that's a 

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great point. 
It was something else. 

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I thought about as you were 
saying that this is what hit me 

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as you were talking about, all 
that work, that you and your 

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fellows did in Kyrgyzstan. 
I bet you that diplomats and Aid

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workers working in the Keurig. 
He's region. 

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I bet they still have benefits 
from that because you were there

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and you created that initial 
reaction that spark of 

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collaborative and trust and I 
bet you there were still reaping

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the benefits from it, there's 
Doubt Jack, the Peace Corps has 

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three goals and I think they 
achieve them. 

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Well, first goal is to provide 
American expertise to foreign 

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countries whether you're an 
English teacher and agronomist a

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small business Expert, you know,
whatever the Peace Corps brings 

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out, technical expertise to 
support country. 

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The second goal is to expose 
Americans to the world so that 

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the volunteer can learn about 
the world and understand how the

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world works. 
And the third goal which is 

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interesting. 
And I'm performing the third 

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goal right now, which is when a 
Peace Corps, volunteer comes 

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back to the United States. 
The goal is to engage Americans 

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in what happened and what goes 
on in the world because of your 

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your service? 
I don't see a lot of Peace Corps

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discussion though, out there. 
Well, you don't see a lot of 

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Peace Corps discussion, but 
there's two reasons for that. 

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Number one, is a enormous 
percentage of Peace Corps. 

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Volunteers Overseas like I did 
for 20 years so I finished my 

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service and I stayed overseas 
right. 

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The second thing is when I speak
to the public, I'm speaking as 

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the executive director of the 
Montana world affairs Council 

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now. 
But every time I do it, I make a

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three-sentence mention. 
I say I was a Peace Corps. 

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Volunteer, the third goal was 
from me to do these things, and 

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I am performing that goal right 
now, right? 

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Thanks to you the American 
taxpayer because that's how I 

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got there. 
And So, I'm delivering on that 

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goal and I'm turning it. 
There's not a lot of dedicated 

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stuff, but there's a lot of 
people like me. 

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Who do jobs, like me, who are 
returned Peace Corps, 

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volunteers, who do engage our 
communities in international 

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issues. 
Sure, I just as a communicator. 

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I see the Peace Corps as under 
represented in the public 

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conscience. 
Yeah. 

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It comes and goes depending on 
the administration and the 

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politics in Washington. 
But yeah, it's also a very low 

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budgeted thing. 
They don't get a lot of money 

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and so there isn't a lot of time
spent engaging the American 

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public, maybe they could do some
more but check this out. 

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Jack last month, my 
organization, we did the number 

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of webcasts to bring 
International careers to 

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students in Montana and Carol 
spawn. 

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The director of the Peace Corps,
the director of The Big Cheese 

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came on my webcast to talk to 
Montana kids and so, yeah, 

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they've, you know, letting 
Americans. 

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You know what? 
What the Peace Corps does and 

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letting them know. 
Hey, it's a great opportunity. 

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Well, if you share those links, 
I'll put them on the show notes.

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And if you have that cast, I'll 
certainly give you credit and 

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put it on the show as well. 
Happy to. 

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But anyway, is there any time 
where civil Affairs and Peace 

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Corps work together? 
You know, I don't really know 

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you and I could probably figure 
this out Jack because I'll give 

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you from the Peace Corps 
perspective. 

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A Peace Corps program is never 
fielded in a place of relative 

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insecurity and their bar for 
security is pretty high. 

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I mean things have to be very 
secure, right? 

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For the u.s. to deploy a group 
of Peace Corps. 

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Volunteers So that means, if you
plot out the map of where Peace 

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Corps volunteers are, I'm 
guessing there's not a huge 

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number of uniform civil Affairs 
officers in those same places, 

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but maybe I'm wrong, I would 
surprise you. 

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There's, there's actually civil 
Affairs operating in Poland or 

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call the way to Lithuania right 
now and just talking about how 

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the US and Poland are Partners 
in security and defense. 

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Yeah, and And you know what's 
going on with NATO and how it 

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all ties together. 
So they do education in the 

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stable countries. 
Okay? 

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We're in Africa, like countries 
like Ghana they go down there 

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and they coach on how to counter
Wildlife trafficking. 

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Yeah. 
They're working in Kenya but 

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they're they're everywhere, they
really are and so they're 

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definitely crossing paths, but I
don't know if they know how to 

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like meet and greet or or what 
because I'm not sure if they 

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know how many children there. 
Crossing paths. 

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Yeah and I think maybe also part
of that Jack is going to be the 

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situation itself and you know 
where I was a volunteer. 

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There was a certain sense and I 
don't know if this is unique to 

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the time and place I was, but 
there was a certain sense 

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amongst the volunteer Bunch that
we didn't want anything to do 

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with any other Americans. 
There were usaid people, there 

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were Embassy people, we weren't 
being unkind to them, but we 

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Also didn't seek them out 
because part of that Peace Corps

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experience. 
If you really want the real 

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00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:30,300
thing which most people do, you 
don't want to be around anybody 

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00:14:30,300 --> 00:14:30,900
else? 
Yeah. 

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00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:33,300
You want to be just in your 
village? 

262
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:34,900
Yeah. 
You want to be in the village 

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with those people. 
So that is a kind of overriding 

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thing. 
However, there's another Dynamic

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that occurs that may be civil 
Affairs. 

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Personnel should be aware of, is
that Peace Corps. 

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Volunteers typically, have a 
primary task and that could be 

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like teaching English at IP 
small Enterprise development 

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forestry, and but they also are 
asked to do a secondary thing. 

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If you're a teacher, the 
secondary project is not in the 

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school, it's in the community, 
so you get outside of your place

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of work, and you're meant to do 
some community support. 

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And in those projects, often 
times volunteers will partner 

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00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,800
with say another NGO that's 
operating in the area or the 

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embassy. 
See which has some money like 

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our village needs a community 
center, it's going to cost ten 

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00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,800
thousand dollars and they go 
scrape up some money to go to 

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00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,600
the Embassy, in the embassy 
becomes a partner so that's 

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00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,000
maybe something to think about 
for civil Affairs. 

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00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,800
Personnel to know that 
volunteers and they're often 

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00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,900
looking for partners who can 
help them pull off that project.

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00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,400
You know, this. 
That's a good point and civil 

283
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,800
Affairs would go through the 
embassy to actually partner on 

284
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:51,500
that. 
Yeah. 

285
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:55,100
And and one And that I'm 
thinking is there's a lot of 

286
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:57,600
ngos that don't like to work 
with the military. 

287
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:01,300
Yeah when I was running 
application for dod's response 

288
00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:05,400
in Liberia to Ebola. 
Yep we were holding in the 

289
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,000
embassy. 
All these interagency 

290
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,200
International councils for 
coordinating the logistics and 

291
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,000
testing. 
And what we could do to dim the 

292
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,700
spread of Ebola, a lot of ngos 
wouldn't come into tent. 

293
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,900
They wanted nothing to do with 
it. 

294
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:22,800
They felt like it would break 
the trust they have Had with the

295
00:16:22,808 --> 00:16:24,100
population. 
Yeah. 

296
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,100
So it's a difficult thing and I 
can imagine that some Peace 

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00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:30,900
Corps people kind of have that 
same, that same concern. 

298
00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:36,100
Yeah, there is that for sure. 
I'm going to pick up on the 

299
00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:39,000
point on humanitarians and then 
we can swing back around to the 

300
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,700
volunteers. 
But your civil Affairs 

301
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:44,900
colleagues will know their 
different flavors of 

302
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,700
humanitarians. 
Sure, but all of them operate 

303
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:51,800
under humanitarian imperative as
we call it and the humanitarian 

304
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,200
principles. 
And amongst those principles is 

305
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,000
this idea of neutrality and 
impartiality. 

306
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,600
And so this is where there is a 
difference in the use of the 

307
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,700
word humanitarian, in this case 
Jack, and it's splitting hairs. 

308
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:10,800
But humanitarians take this very
seriously and Sherman civil 

309
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,300
Affairs. 
People, the very virtue of the 

310
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:17,200
fact that civil Affairs are in a
military, they are partial. 

311
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,000
Absolutely, there's no question 
about that. 

312
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:24,400
There's nothing wrong with that,
but It counters, what the 

313
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,099
humanitarians have to live and 
work by because the moment a 

314
00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:33,000
humanitarian becomes partial in 
a situation then they can no 

315
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,800
longer meet the needs of all 
needy people. 

316
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,600
They're seen as partial and so 
maybe one group will see that 

317
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,400
and say, We'll look, you guys 
are on the American side, we saw

318
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,700
you in the tent with them. 
We saw you talking to them and 

319
00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:52,200
so, that must mean you're with 
them and we're against them. 

320
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,900
Are you can't come into our 
patch and help our people 

321
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:58,300
anymore, you know, it can't be 
overstated that that part of the

322
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:02,500
humanitarian principle is at the
core of humanitarian action and 

323
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:08,100
without it humanitarian efforts 
fail and so humanitarians take 

324
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:10,400
it seriously that's a little bit
less. 

325
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,200
So I would say with regard to 
Peace Corps, volunteers, yeah, 

326
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,500
it's there, but Peace Corps. 
Volunteers are not living and 

327
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,500
working in acting as 
humanitarians. 

328
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,200
They're doing something. 
They are a kind of technical 

329
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,800
support if you will cultural 
engagement but they're not 

330
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,200
providing humanitarian Aid. 
So the situation of providing 

331
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,700
humanitarian Aid is a 
contentious situation by 

332
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:37,900
definition right, either in 
conflict or natural disaster, 

333
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,200
right? 
And so, for humanitarian to 

334
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,900
properly, be able to deliver on 
the work, you have to stay 

335
00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:50,000
neutral and impartial that's 
what drives that dynamic. 

336
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,700
So here's here's an interesting 
hat, trick, I'm going to throw 

337
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:55,700
at you. 
How does someone like a civil 

338
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:59,500
Affairs officer or a military 
member or even a diplomat or Aid

339
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:02,400
worker? 
That's clearly in the u.s. tent.

340
00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:06,100
How do they coordinate with 
humanitarian workers? 

341
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:09,000
So that it doesn't seem to taint
their impartiality. 

342
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,800
I mean, you've got to have some 
kind of median in between medium

343
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,100
in between, right? 
Absolutely absolutely. 

344
00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:19,800
So in any situation, as you have
a civil Affairs officer or 

345
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,600
within, Civil Affairs unit. 
You'll have somebody with some 

346
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,300
expertise on sieve male, 
humanitarian /, military 

347
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,900
coordination. 
Sure humanitarians are also 

348
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:32,900
practical. 
They're like look the military's

349
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:35,100
tier they're doing things. 
We still need to talk to them. 

350
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:37,800
So let's be practical but let's 
figure out a way we can do it 

351
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,000
and maintain our principal 
that's typically in than a more 

352
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,900
formalized Forum. 
Where you go to the Embassy or 

353
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,800
you meet on neutral ground at 
the UN or something like that. 

354
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,500
And you have your consultations 
and Discussions where it gets 

355
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:54,500
dicey. 
Frankly is out in the field. 

356
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,400
It's less in the meeting room, 
right? 

357
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,200
If you're out in the field and 
you're in the tent in your 

358
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,400
scene, uniformed Personnel. 
Will be, they Americans or 

359
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,900
otherwise that can really create
a lot of problems for you. 

360
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,100
And that's the area. 
I'm mostly concerned about 

361
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:11,200
again, is out in the field. 
How do we, how do we create that

362
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,500
bridge between humanitarian 
operations and civil Affairs, 

363
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:17,700
operations, to where we don't? 
Look like, we're tainting 

364
00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:20,600
humanitarians to seem like 
they're biased. 

365
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,900
Way or another the Practical and
serious and smart humanitarian 

366
00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:28,100
will know that they need to 
speak with and coordinate with 

367
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,900
civil Affairs officers. 
Yeah, they know that it's not 

368
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:35,900
good to be seen heatedly in 
public forum and be closed and 

369
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:39,400
to be paying out, right? 
That kind of things to Affairs 

370
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,900
officers should know. 
A manicure is not going to do 

371
00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:42,900
that. 
We're not going to be the 

372
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,800
hangout person sure but both the
Civil Affairs officer in the 

373
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600
humanitarian knows each other 
has things that are useful in. 

374
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,600
Information material and what 
have you not? 

375
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,900
And so finding ways to 
communicate that maybe are a 

376
00:20:56,900 --> 00:21:02,600
little bit, less public, Less in
the public eye appearing to be 

377
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,400
as one because civil Affairs 
officers learn like 

378
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,700
humanitarians it in many places 
humanitarian. 

379
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:13,500
We're like, no, I'm from this 
part of the UN, oh, I'm from 

380
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:16,300
this other part of the UN were 
the only one who make that 

381
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:18,000
distinction. 
Nobody else cares. 

382
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,500
You know, they're like, who 
cares everyone? 

383
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:23,000
Just sees a blue hat. 
You're all wearing a blue hat, 

384
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,600
you're all what driving a white 
car, you know, you're all the 

385
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,300
sin to people and so when the 
humanitarians are with military 

386
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,700
personnel, it's also like that. 
It's like oh you're the same as 

387
00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:36,100
those guys and then civil 
Affairs officers, know this 

388
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:39,300
other conundrum that you faced 
with in the military which is 

389
00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:42,300
your the ones out there talking 
with the village leaders, right?

390
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,700
But then you have infantry and 
fighting personnel and they're 

391
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,100
like, wait a second. 
You guys are wearing the same 

392
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:50,600
clothes are using, you know, are
you those guys? 

393
00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:52,800
Are you say you're something 
else and it can be very 

394
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,600
confusing. 
Yeah, I'll be honest, us Aid 

395
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,200
hates having military in uniform
helping support their 

396
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,200
operations. 
They call them action heroes. 

397
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,300
You know they come in a 
helicopter. 

398
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,000
They got these uniforms. 
They're all over the place with 

399
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,200
the karate chop pointing hands 
and yeah and the cameras go 

400
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,100
right to them and they just 
ignore aide. 

401
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:14,300
Who's the lead usually in these.
Yeah humanitarian response and 

402
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:20,300
they get so mad. 
So well, I do that. 

403
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,500
You know, to I mean Jack that 
nice thing for civil Affairs 

404
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:27,000
because the Oslo guidelines, 
those are the guidelines for 

405
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,400
civil military cooperation. 
In a humanitarian situation, 

406
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,600
from a humanitarian perspective,
and it's actually quite explicit

407
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,700
in that document. 
And in that agreement 

408
00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:40,800
coordination and cooperation 
with the military is what we 

409
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,100
would refer to as a last resort.
You know, if there is a 

410
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:47,900
situation where manager and 
Community cannot or is unable to

411
00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:50,500
operate, then you go to the 
military. 

412
00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:54,200
A great example of that South 
Asian tsunami, right? 

413
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,600
And absolutely beyond all 
belief, there's no way the 

414
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,000
global humanitarian Community 
could deliver on that. 

415
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,800
So, call in the military with 
it, we, it's lift and Logistics.

416
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:07,800
This is the big thing. 
You look at the situation, you 

417
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,400
know, in the Balkans and the in 
the mid and late 90s, to sure 

418
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,500
the need and the situation so 
far, outstrip the humanitarians 

419
00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:20,800
ability to do the work that 
there was like, okay, Dad, We 

420
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,400
need the military and then you 
will. 

421
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,400
Well, that's they really are the
contingency of Last Hope. 

422
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,400
Yeah. 
In a lot of places that make 

423
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,300
sense and it's reasonable for 
the military to expect that. 

424
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:33,900
I mean, that's kind of their 
job, right? 

425
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:36,700
When everything else fails you 
calling these people because 

426
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,200
they're willing to just go into 
the worst of it. 

427
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,400
Yeah, an interesting discussion 
within the military, but broadly

428
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,200
speaking. 
You also don't want to get mired

429
00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:47,700
in situations where you don't 
need to be there. 

430
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:50,500
A lot of this humanitarian stuff
is Small Potatoes. 

431
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:52,300
And you know the humanitarian 
communities. 

432
00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:54,800
They're well funded doing the 
work and you know, you don't 

433
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,500
want to get embroiled in that 
stuff. 

434
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,100
Yeah. 
Well, this is the interesting 

435
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,200
thing. 
My favorite civil Affairs 

436
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,500
project is the see a team that 
supports an Air Force Base out 

437
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:09,600
in the Augie does because the 
Air Force personnel actually 

438
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,400
raise money. 
They donate money to the see a 

439
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,600
team to go into the village and 
help the economy, the weaving 

440
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,500
and Manufacturing, and they buy 
stuff, and they have class. 

441
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:25,800
Festivals to build good grace 
between this Air Force Base and 

442
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,700
the audit has people and it 
really works well and that's one

443
00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:33,300
of those small town civil 
Affairs projects that I think 

444
00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:37,200
really exemplifies that 
similarity between Peace Corps 

445
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,300
and CA because it's in an area 
that's great. 

446
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:43,100
People who go out there and do 
the job, love it, and it's not 

447
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:45,700
conflict based. 
Its it's just developing those 

448
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:48,900
relationships so that the 
community and that are based can

449
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:50,500
live in peace. 
Yeah, you man. 

450
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,100
Materials use the same Dynamic. 
The, for coming to Montana, I 

451
00:24:55,108 --> 00:24:58,500
was working in Myanmar, which 
had a huge humanitarian 

452
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:00,800
operation. 
But if you really break that 

453
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,600
down into little more granular, 
assessment of the situation, you

454
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,200
had people who were displaced by
conflict and living in camps. 

455
00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:11,800
But those camps were interred 
dispersed amongst Villages and 

456
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,700
those Village people were not 
directly affected by conflict 

457
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:18,600
but living there. 
And essentially in the same 

458
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,500
situation as the people in the 
camps, But because you are 

459
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:25,700
displaced and living in a camp. 
You tend to get more visibility 

460
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:29,200
and therefore more assistance. 
But when you do that, then the 

461
00:25:29,208 --> 00:25:31,900
people who are living in The 
Villages around the camp are 

462
00:25:31,908 --> 00:25:34,900
like hey, what's going on? 
I'm in the same situation, how 

463
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:38,500
come they're getting free food 
and it creates a huge tension. 

464
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,800
I'm going to go. 
Yeah, it creates a perverse 

465
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,100
incentive. 
So humanitarians often like that

466
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,900
will also support local 
surrounding communities, 

467
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:52,700
although they are not affected 
in the The same way from the 

468
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:57,600
conflict or the natural disaster
but they are in need and if you 

469
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,600
don't do something there, then 
you're creating a problem that 

470
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,100
you don't need in the first 
place. 

471
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,500
I had never thought of that. 
That's that's genius. 

472
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:12,200
Hey, did you ever meet Jason 
Tower Of The u.s. 

473
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,300
Institute of Peace? 
He's the Burma country, 

474
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:18,600
director. 
I got to advise a little bit on 

475
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,900
the national Unity government. 
I met some of their folks. 

476
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,800
And, and sat with Jason, we 
talked about building public 

477
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,600
support around the national, 
Unity government and build 

478
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,800
pressure on the military. 
That's in power to allow 

479
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,400
Democratic rule to re-emerge in 
the Tree. 

480
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:38,300
Oh yeah, what look you are. 
Sakti is an extraordinary 

481
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:42,400
organization and I really 
sincerely admire the people who 

482
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,000
are working there, particularly 
those who are out in places like

483
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,700
Myanmar, I spent five and a half
years and I left before the 

484
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:52,500
coup. 
So I'm not there at this time 

485
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:56,600
but you know like many of us 
who've been out in these places 

486
00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:01,400
and you live with the people 
there and you grow to understand

487
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,900
them, you grow to love them, 
grow to appreciate them. 

488
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,700
Them. 
And, you know, I can't say 

489
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:09,300
enough for the people of Myanmar
and and what has happened to 

490
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,100
them and what is happening to 
them. 

491
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:14,300
Now it's just they're not 
deserving of this fake and 

492
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:18,200
anybody who can work on untying 
that not. 

493
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,300
I really admire My Hope. 
Is that once we get Democratic 

494
00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:25,500
rule, we could also then get rid
of the fentanyl camps that the 

495
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:28,000
PRC supporting the knee area. 
We should make everyone's lives 

496
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,000
a lot easier. 
Yeah. 

497
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,100
Yeah. 
You know, Jack that you touched 

498
00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:36,800
on a foreign policy field What 
many people think you mentioned,

499
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,500
once there's some democracy 
there, but one analysis is that 

500
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,700
these generals who took over 
their intent is to suppress 

501
00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:47,400
opposition. 
Get out of the western eye for a

502
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,900
few years and then run a 
democratic election right? 

503
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:55,400
In which they will win. 
And then they will say, well, 

504
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,300
you westerners you wanted, this 
democratically elected 

505
00:27:58,300 --> 00:27:59,900
government. 
Here we are. 

506
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,500
We're your people now. 
So I don't know. 

507
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,900
One, I certainly hope that does 
not happen but yeah, yeah, yeah 

508
00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:10,300
there's no way you could have a 
proper election there. 

509
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:13,400
Now they've been they've been 
trying to pursue a an election 

510
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,500
for a while and and then in the 
unity government has been 

511
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:17,700
pushing against it. 
Yeah. 

512
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:21,700
That's a long road right there. 
Yeah the military regime has to 

513
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:26,000
surrender first and leave the 
governance and have the unity 

514
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,600
government or something, like it
emerged to take power before. 

515
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,000
That could happen. 
That's sadly, a long way off and

516
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,600
I feel bad for For the people 
who are suffering. 

517
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,500
Yeah, me too. 
It's a tough time for everybody 

518
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:43,100
there. 
So I've kept you on the phone 

519
00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:45,600
for an hour and a half, almost 
an hour and 15 minutes. 

520
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,700
That's been great Jack. 
I appreciate it. 

521
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,800
And you know, I tell you, I mean
I admire what you do jack on 

522
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,500
your podcast and I know that 
this is going, you know, 

523
00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:00,000
hopefully the Civil Affairs 
personnel and you know, I've 

524
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,700
said it many times. 
I've got a great admiration. 

525
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:04,500
Thank you for the very Be hard, 
work. 

526
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:07,000
That you all do. 
Thank you. 

527
00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:08,500
Okay. 
Okay. 

528
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,800
Well I appreciate your time. 
All right, you'd be. 

529
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,000
Well, Jack. 
Take good care. 

530
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:12,900
You too. 
Bye bye. 

531
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:13,800
Bye. 
Bye. 

532
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,800
Thanks for listening. 
If you get a chance, please like

533
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,000
And subscribe, and rate the show
on your favorite podcast 

534
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,700
platform. 
Also, if you're interested in 

535
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:27,200
coming on the show, or hosting 
an episode, email us at, see, a 

536
00:29:27,208 --> 00:29:31,100
podcasting at gmail.com, I'll 
have the email and see a 

537
00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:33,200
association website in the show 
notes. 

538
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,200
Now, most importantly to those 
currently out in the field, 

539
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,300
working with a partner Nations 
people or leadership to forward 

540
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:42,800
us relations. 
Thank you all for what you're 

541
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,400
doing. 
This is Jack, your host stay 

542
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,800
tuned for more great episodes 
once the a podcast