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Peloton row offers a variety of 31 00:01:19,900 --> 00:01:22,500 classes for all levels and game changing features that help you 32 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:24,900 get rolling or Advance. What you can already do explore 33 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:28,600 Peloton row and financing options at one pellet on.com 34 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,800 slash row. Coming up on the Jordan 35 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,600 Harbinger show Wars, human people fight for the same 36 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,600 reasons that do cities identified, 2,500 years ago, 37 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,000 fear, honor, and interest. And so, if you're not addressing 38 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,800 the drivers of conflict, you're just treating the symptoms and 39 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,800 you're going to perpetuate. That conflict is going to go on 40 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,300 longer and then necessary. It is a contest of wills. 41 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,500 It really requires. You convincing your enemy that 42 00:01:53,500 --> 00:02:00,700 your enemy has been defeated. Welcome to the show. 43 00:02:00,700 --> 00:02:03,800 I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode 44 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,900 the stories secrets and skills of the World's Most Fascinating 45 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:08,699 People. If you're new to this show, we 46 00:02:08,699 --> 00:02:11,800 have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, 47 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,200 astronauts, and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even 48 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,800 the occasional National Security advisor, and each show turns our 49 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,000 guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build 50 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,000 a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a 51 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,500 better critical thinker and today, like I said, the 52 00:02:27,508 --> 00:02:30,400 occasional National Security advisor, we have Admiral HR 53 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,400 McMaster with us today. This is a fun discussion about 54 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,600 how the world has continued to get worse while we're 55 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,900 preoccupied with partisan discourse and other crap. 56 00:02:37,900 --> 00:02:40,500 That's ruining the country. We also dip into Iran. 57 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,500 China North Korea and how he and his team develop strategies that 58 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:47,500 not only affect the United States but the entire free 59 00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:49,400 world, I had a great time with this one. 60 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,900 And if you're interested in global Affairs and the world in 61 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:54,800 disarray, in which we currently live, I think you'll enjoy this 62 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,200 conversation as well. If you're wondering how I 63 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,500 managed to book all these amazing authors Anchors generals 64 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:03,200 every single week it's because of my network and I'm teaching 65 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:04,700 you how to build a similar Network. 66 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:06,800 It's a free course. It's over at Jordan, 67 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,900 Harbinger.com cores, no credit card required, none of that 68 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:11,700 crap. By the way, most of the guests 69 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:13,800 on the show they subscribe to the course in the newsletter. 70 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,600 They contribute to the course, come join us, you'll be in smart 71 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,800 company. Now, here's General HR McMaster 72 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:25,900 In your job, you have to take every perspective and then you 73 00:03:25,900 --> 00:03:28,400 have to decide which one or which pieces of which 74 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,600 perspectives are actually going to yield the best result. 75 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,600 And that seems like a impossibly difficult, essentially lose-lose 76 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,900 scenario. Where you and or everyone 77 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:41,500 around, you is constantly second-guessing your decisions. 78 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:43,600 If it's not you, it's somebody else. 79 00:03:44,700 --> 00:03:46,300 Where do you even begin that process? 80 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:49,000 Because you have to take your emotion out of the decision. 81 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:50,900 Ray dalio had that same problem, right? 82 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:53,300 You have 1000 inputs. Come from a thousand different 83 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:56,000 people. Yours are life and death though, 84 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,100 so you can't just go. Well, I liked Jim and so I went 85 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:02,100 with his decision and you know, now we are where we are, and 86 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:05,100 there's a huge problem. How do you evaluate the inputs, 87 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:06,700 right? Which word, first of all, you 88 00:04:06,708 --> 00:04:09,000 got assemble team. They can bring together an 89 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,500 interdisciplinary perspectives because I mean War conflict. 90 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:16,300 It's a complex Endeavor. And you have to understand 91 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:19,600 really what is driving and constraining the other in the in 92 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,399 the Battlegrounds. This book I just finished. 93 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:25,500 I mean, I Introduced this concept of strategic empathy, to 94 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:29,700 try to view these complex competitions from the 95 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:32,100 perspective of the other. It's not a new idea, this goes 96 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:36,000 back to you know sunsoo know, you don't know your enemy but 97 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,500 then you also have to know the complex environment in which 98 00:04:39,500 --> 00:04:44,400 you're operating and so war is this continuous interaction of 99 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,800 opposites, right? You and maybe multiple enemies 100 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,200 and adversaries inside of a complex environment and you 101 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,400 nobody's going to have before Range of expertise necessary to 102 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,800 understand that complex problem, set holistically. 103 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,600 So you have to bring the right team together and then the key 104 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,400 thing is and, you know, as a historian it's all about the 105 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:04,900 question. You got to ask the right 106 00:05:04,900 --> 00:05:08,500 questions and you're better off with a general broad question. 107 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:10,700 Like what is the nature of this conflict? 108 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,700 You know, who is the enemy? What is their strategy? 109 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:15,400 What are their objectives is through? 110 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,600 Asking these kind of questions and creating you know a 111 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,300 collaborative environment with people who bring NG 112 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:24,700 interdisciplinary expertise. That's how you begin. 113 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:28,500 I think to frame a problem and apply design thinking to these 114 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:31,600 complex challenges were facing. How do you make it okay for 115 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,600 people to be wrong around you or to give you advice that turns 116 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,500 out to be wrong? Because I would imagine you have 117 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:39,900 to Foster that because otherwise you just have people that go. 118 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,200 I'm not 100% sure. I'm not going to say anything. 119 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,700 Even though I'm the Iran expert on this, I just don't want to 120 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:47,100 get in trouble and then people died as a result. 121 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:49,900 It's all about the climate that you Foster, you know, there's 122 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:52,100 this conventional wisdom about the military, that's very high. 123 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:54,400 Article, you know, nobody speaks out of turn. 124 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,000 That's not been my experience. It's really what you allude to 125 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,900 the beginning of the stakes are pretty darn hot. 126 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,700 So what you want to do is encourage people to be 127 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:04,000 participating of to not hold back. 128 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,600 Also, you want to create an organization that is really 129 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,900 freed in terms of their ability to think and share their 130 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:12,600 thoughts. But also in the military and an 131 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,300 environment in which people are free to act and to actually make 132 00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:18,700 mistakes of times I mean, because the most dangerous 133 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:22,100 course of action, typically in combat is to not do anything. 134 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,200 Thing. And so what you want to do is 135 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:27,600 encourage initiative at lower levels and to do that you have 136 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,700 to be able to underwrite risk. And you have to be able to I 137 00:06:30,707 --> 00:06:33,400 think communicate clearly what you want to achieve overall. 138 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,300 Tell everyone on your team as much as you can about what 139 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:41,400 you're trying to achieve and how just generally you want to 140 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,100 achieve it and free them up to take the initiative. 141 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:48,200 How much does somebody at your level employee or ask people to 142 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:49,800 employ outside of the box thinking? 143 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,100 And I know that sounds like a cliche but you here in the 144 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,400 Terry, like you said, it's hierarchical, you don't want you 145 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,600 see people with the middle and at the lower level say like, no, 146 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,600 we don't want people to think too much. 147 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,300 Follow the exact instructions because otherwise you're going 148 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:05,600 to get your head shot off. But like at the higher level, it 149 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,300 seems like you have to be thinking, not just like the 150 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:10,200 enemy. But you have to say what sort of 151 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,000 other outside the box thinking can we employ? 152 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,100 Because we see Russia doing this with cyber warfare while Russia, 153 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:17,200 Iran China, you see our enemies doing this. 154 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,300 We can't just be, it goes back. I saw this movie when I was a 155 00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:22,600 kid board, Napoleon was kind of Invading. 156 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,400 All these places in the guys were just marching up and 157 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,700 they're shooting cannons and they're just walking slowly 158 00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:29,800 towards this row of cannons and everyone's getting blown to 159 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,600 bits. And I remember asking my dad, 160 00:07:31,900 --> 00:07:34,600 why are they just walking slowly toward the enemy? 161 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,600 And my dad's, like that's how they fought back then. 162 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:39,700 And I thought this is I'm eight and that's the dumbest idea I've 163 00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:41,900 ever seen in my entire life. There's a ten-year-old in the 164 00:07:41,907 --> 00:07:43,700 front with a drum, they're all gonna die. 165 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,600 No that's why you need an organization that encourages 166 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,600 initiative and problem solving and thinking imaginatively, you 167 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,700 know, and this is one of the strengths of American Army, and 168 00:07:53,700 --> 00:07:56,600 the Continental Army and armed militias in the revolution, 169 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,500 right? This was getting these were the 170 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:01,000 tactics that the British were employment, even in kind of 171 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,300 dense unfavorable terrain and the South, right? 172 00:08:04,300 --> 00:08:07,900 And you had this combination of Riflemen, it within militias and 173 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:10,700 skirmishers that would be out in front and just post some of the 174 00:08:10,707 --> 00:08:13,700 much different look than that. He had been accustomed to. 175 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:16,100 It was confounding too many of these British commanders. 176 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:18,900 You know, that my least favorite saying you hear people use 177 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:21,000 sometimes is what, hey, stay in your lane. 178 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,700 I mean how No, get out of your lane and think about problems 179 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:27,900 from different perspective. Consult others who bring 180 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:30,300 imaginative thinking to these complex problems. 181 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,299 I think in the military you know what we emphasize is seizing 182 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:38,500 retaining and exploiting the initiative and the initiative is 183 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,299 you gain it by doing something, unexpected by Shocking your 184 00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:45,700 adversary, surprising your adversary and then it's kind of 185 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:48,300 like a boxing match. If you land a job, you know, you 186 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:51,400 got to follow with your right, you know, very quickly. 187 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,000 And I think Just an important concept to emphasize the 188 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,600 initiative in our Command Post in Iraq. 189 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,400 When we're fighting a really brutal determined enemy of 190 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,600 al-Qaeda in Iraq, in their training base. 191 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,000 This was kind of the Fort Benning, Georgia of al-Qaeda and 192 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,200 Iraq or the Quantico Virginia. You know, training base. 193 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:13,800 We had hanging our Command Post to questions for three 194 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:15,400 questions. Who else needs to know? 195 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,800 Because one of the ways you seize the initiative, is you 196 00:09:17,900 --> 00:09:20,600 share information. Horizontally across your 197 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,900 organization and you condition members of your organization to 198 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:26,400 say, oh my my buddy over there, he's got a problem, she's got a 199 00:09:26,408 --> 00:09:29,500 problem, you know, I can help solve that problem. 200 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,700 And so now you're closing the interview with multiple dilemmas 201 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,300 because everybody is working together and it kind of 202 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:38,500 self-synchronizing way within an organization. 203 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:41,200 You know, you can tell you really, I think an effective 204 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,600 maneuver unit in the Army by just listening to the radio or 205 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,400 their Communications going straight up and down. 206 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:48,400 Or is the majority of their conversations? 207 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,100 Is it going? Horizontally across the 208 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:52,000 organization so it's who else needs. 209 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,000 No, the other big question in there was, where are the 210 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,300 opportunities? And how do we exploit that you 211 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:01,700 do a lot of bad things happen in combat, right? 212 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:04,100 Lot of bad things happened in lecture but if you look at what 213 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:06,700 happens to say, okay, well, how do I turn this to my advantage, 214 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:08,700 right? How do I bend this situation 215 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:10,600 back to our goals and objectives? 216 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:13,900 And then finally, the question was, how do we retain an exploit 217 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:15,500 the initiative? Because you don't want to let 218 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:16,600 off right? You never want to become 219 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,500 complacent. And and so you have this 220 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:22,000 conditioning of a unit to take initiative, I think is mentally. 221 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:23,700 Important. He actually mentioned this in 222 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:26,200 the book Battlegrounds, which by the way, that I listen to it an 223 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,400 audio and it was like 19 hours. How what does that in Pages 400 224 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:30,800 or something? 500 pages. 225 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,100 Right. I think something like. 226 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,200 Yeah that's that's including notes though. 227 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,500 Yeah, it's a page-turner. Jordan I'm telling well, I read 228 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:38,500 the whole thing. It was a long weekend but it was 229 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:40,300 a good one. Yeah. 230 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,900 You mentioned in the book Battlegrounds which will link in 231 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:45,400 the show notes that going back to what you were saying. 232 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,700 Exploiting the initiative. We run the risk of / are not 233 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:51,900 doing this in Iraq and Afghanistan Where We Are. 234 00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:55,300 Like okay, we did this big Surge and we got them on their back 235 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:57,000 foot. Now, let's get everybody out of 236 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,000 here and go home and it's like, wait, no, this is if they're 237 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,200 down. This is when you pin them, you 238 00:11:02,208 --> 00:11:03,900 don't go. Okay, well, let's wait for them 239 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:07,400 to get back up, rest, have some water, get a meal in, get a good 240 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,200 night's sleep, and then pounce back up on us. 241 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,500 Like, that's kind of what we're doing with these at and the 242 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:13,200 enemy over there from the sound of it. 243 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Right? And what I argue is that one of 244 00:11:15,808 --> 00:11:19,600 the reasons why these wars have been longer than anticipated and 245 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,300 frustrating is we took the short term Approaches, where long-term 246 00:11:23,300 --> 00:11:25,500 problems of? We think unrealistically, a lot 247 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:28,600 of times about war because we're biased towards thinking about 248 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,000 change over continuity, right? Hey, we've got this new Nifty 249 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,500 technology that's going to make work fast cheap efficient. 250 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:38,800 Well, actually, they're a lot of continuities in war that you 251 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,400 have to consider. I mean, we're seeing extension 252 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,000 of politics and I write about these in the conclusion, right? 253 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,600 So you have to get to a sustainable political outcome so 254 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,600 your point toward you know, the consolidation of military games 255 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,000 to get to those plug rockem's. It's not like an option. 256 00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:55,100 Beige it word, something we've always had to do. 257 00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:58,400 The second factor is that your Wars human people fight? 258 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,600 For the same reasons that the city's identified 2,500 years 259 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,300 ago, fear, honor and interest. And so if you're not addressing 260 00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:08,400 the drivers of conflict, you're just treating the symptoms and 261 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,400 you're going to perpetuate. That conflict is going to go on 262 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,400 longer than necessary Wars uncertain. 263 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,900 Because as I mentioned already this this interaction with your 264 00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:19,100 adversaries that makes the future course of events. 265 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:22,300 You more anything but linear and then finally Wars. 266 00:12:22,300 --> 00:12:24,900 It is a contest of wills, it really requires. 267 00:12:24,900 --> 00:12:28,800 You, convincing your enemy that your enemy has been defeated, 268 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,600 right? And when you're saying, hey, you 269 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,400 know, I'm just going to take the George Costanza approach toward, 270 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:37,100 you know, and at leave on a high note, practice your your enemies 271 00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:38,200 going to say. Well, I'll just, I'll just wait 272 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,600 these guys out, right? So I think really making sure 273 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,100 that you consider continuity as well as change when confronting 274 00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:48,100 really any kind of complex problem. 275 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,700 But especially War, I think is very important. 276 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:53,200 Why do we keep fighting? I think he said this on 60 277 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,700 Minutes a few days ago, will link to that video in the show 278 00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:57,500 notes, if it's up online, I don't know if it is. 279 00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:00,600 I downloaded it in a way that I don't think you can normally do, 280 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,800 but I'll leave it at that. But you said on 60 Minutes that 281 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,400 we keep fighting a one year war, what is it twenty times twenty 282 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,300 years in Afghanistan? We're up to 19 now, almost 20, 283 00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:12,000 right? So, is that? 284 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,200 Because, and I'm not asking you to assign blame necessarily but 285 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,200 is that? Because military leaders are 286 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,400 like, this is going to be over because y'all should know 287 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,000 better, right? Or is this politicians going? 288 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,700 Hey, look. Get it done yesterday and let's 289 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:25,900 just get it done as fast as possible. 290 00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:28,200 So I don't have to hear about it when I'm campaigning again. 291 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,600 Well, you know, it's a combination of both Jordan. 292 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,800 So in the 1990s after that, we were flushed with the victory in 293 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,000 the Gulf War, right? And the tremendous technological 294 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,900 military prowess and so there was this assumption that grew 295 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:41,600 over time. Associated with this idea of a 296 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,000 revolution in military Affairs and to work all the RMA, right? 297 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:49,200 Future war was going to be fast cheap and efficient waged mainly 298 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,900 kind of it standoff range and so in a I can understand it worked 299 00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:56,200 to an extent because we empowered afghan. 300 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,000 Militias, with our tremendous are power, which tremendous, 301 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,000 Special Operations, forces and was Intelligence Officers, the 302 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,400 end, they defeated the Taliban regime in terms of driving them, 303 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,800 out of Kabul. But what they didn't do, what 304 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,100 they couldn't do is consolidate gains. 305 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:12,500 And then, of course, we turned our attention to Iraq. 306 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,600 Then there wasn't a surge in Afghanistan for, you know, under 307 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,800 President Obama, but he announced the withdrawal of 308 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,800 those troops at the same time as a reinforcement. 309 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:21,900 So I mean, it could go on about this. 310 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,400 This. But essentially it was a 311 00:14:23,408 --> 00:14:26,800 combination of military and civilian leaders who didn't 312 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,300 really, maybe understand completely what we need to 313 00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:33,200 happen or there wasn't the will necessary to commit the effort 314 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,900 over that amount of time. And at that level of effort, you 315 00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:39,800 mentioned that strategic empathy was one of the weapons. 316 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,500 Can you give an example of that one in the book is from Iran? 317 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:45,800 Where we just maybe don't quite understand what the enemy wants 318 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:46,700 at. All, right? 319 00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:49,200 What we tend to kind of rush to what we would like to do, right? 320 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,900 So our strategies sometimes are based on What the purveyor 321 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:56,900 prefers rather than with the situation demands in Iran if 322 00:14:56,900 --> 00:15:00,400 there's a pattern to US policy toward Iran since the Iranian 323 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,600 Revolution in 1979 it is that a belief in a conciliatory 324 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,800 approach to Iran and that will affect a change not only in the 325 00:15:08,808 --> 00:15:12,000 behavior of the Iranian regime but in the regimes very nature 326 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,300 of well it hasn't panned out and that's because we undervalue the 327 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:20,800 way that the Revolutionary ideology drives that regime and 328 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,500 we pay attention and stay. Said, you know, to the shop 329 00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:27,000 window of the regime, which is typically the President, right? 330 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,500 And so, we think in the 1990s, this guy hot, to me comes in 331 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:34,700 after the Khobar Towers bombing that killed 17 American Airmen 332 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,200 and President Clinton's thinking about, well, I wonder if we 333 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,800 ought to strike Iran and try to restore degree of deterrence in 334 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,200 this proxy war, they're fighting against us and but there's a new 335 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,300 president coming in the guy's a librarian. 336 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:47,900 He must be not much nicer than the other guy don't, but he's 337 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:50,600 the shop window for the regime. The regime is the supreme 338 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,400 leader, who is driven That revolutionary ideology and the 339 00:15:54,408 --> 00:15:57,000 Islamic revolutionary guards Corps, who were the Protectors 340 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,500 of the Revolution and whose Goods Force exports, the 341 00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,800 Revolution, and its really sustained campaign against the 342 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,800 great Satan, you know, United States, the little Satan Israel, 343 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,700 and the Arab monarchies. And so I what I argue for in the 344 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:15,200 book is, hey, we have to just based our strategy toward a ran, 345 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,400 our policy toward Iran on the reality that this regime is 346 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,000 permanently hostile to US, unless There's a transformation 347 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,400 really from within that's going to be up to the Iranian people, 348 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,900 but our policy should be based on not on wishful, thinking 349 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:30,600 about the regime, but the reality of what drives you. 350 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:32,500 Yeah, it seems kind of crazy to end. 351 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:34,200 Look, I'm no expert on International Affairs. 352 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,300 I'm a freaking podcaster. But like from my whole life has 353 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:40,900 been the 80s, I was born in 1980 so that was sort of defined by 354 00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:43,300 my mom telling me when I was very little about the hostage 355 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:48,600 crisis and I was like, how do we have people stuck in a house in 356 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,400 another hostile country for over a year. 357 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,300 How This even possible. We have all the Allies in the 358 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:55,700 world and then now that I'm older. 359 00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:59,100 I'm like we have this crazy religious theocracy who non-stop 360 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:00,400 on their own television and media. 361 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,600 Talk about destroying the West entirely and turning the rest of 362 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,300 the world into a Theocratic crap. 363 00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:09,000 Pile like the one that they're controlling, they have numerous 364 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,200 internal revolutions that they put down brutally because the 365 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,099 people of Iran don't want to live under them either. 366 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:16,599 And then every year it's like, well, let's just buy some more 367 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,400 time while they try to get nuclear weapons. 368 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,800 What's the worst thing that can happen? 369 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,700 And everyone, I feel like a lot of us who I think are just maybe 370 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:25,900 oversimplifying it but I'd like to thank have a little bit of 371 00:17:25,908 --> 00:17:27,500 sense are going. What are you doing? 372 00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:29,700 You're just going to wait until they have weapons like North 373 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:31,800 Korea and then were then we're just going to pray that they 374 00:17:31,808 --> 00:17:34,800 don't use them even though they're shipping Hezbollah and 375 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,700 terrorist organizations as many weapons as they can get their 376 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:40,500 hands on by the truckload. We're going to wait out their 377 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:42,400 nuclear ambition. What are we doing? 378 00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:45,300 Why you're right? Well I enjoy I think what you're 379 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:47,600 alluding to is, this tendency toward mirror Imaging. 380 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,800 And this is one of the features that I write about in connection 381 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,900 with this idea of strategic Narcissism right there. 382 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:54,900 Yes, yeah. We just we just kind of assumed 383 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:56,200 that we're going to behave the same way. 384 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,200 We would behave and I wrote a book on Vietnam years ago, 385 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,400 titled dereliction of Duty in. It's about how and why Vietnam 386 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,600 became an American War and what was extraordinary about? 387 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,900 That's about that story. I think when the elements of it 388 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,600 is, how this mirror Imaging affected, the Americanization of 389 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,700 the war in Vietnam and in particular, the assumption that 390 00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:19,100 Ho Chi Minh and the Vietnamese communist leadership and Hanoi 391 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:21,800 would respond just the way we would to our actions. 392 00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:24,300 And in fact, one of the memoranda that came out of the 393 00:18:24,308 --> 00:18:27,200 Pentagon around that time. Talked about Ho Chi Minh being 394 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,700 like the reasonable man in English, common law. 395 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:33,900 Well, he wasn't right. He was driven, you'll buy a 396 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:37,900 nationalist and a communist ideology that defied. 397 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,100 You know, that really what our calculations were based on the 398 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:42,800 reasonable man of English, common law. 399 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:44,500 Yeah. I think we make this mistake a 400 00:18:44,508 --> 00:18:47,200 lot. We often hear arguments like, oh 401 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,300 well Kim Jang, Hoon are sore. Kim Jong-il or whoever we're 402 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,100 talking about at the time, I guess, Kim Now, of course, is 403 00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:55,200 going to be rational, he's going to react irrationally to 404 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,700 whatever we're doing, but it's not even the right kind of 405 00:18:57,700 --> 00:18:59,600 rational. It's like we're thinking, well, 406 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,500 he's gonna do what's best for his country and this and that 407 00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:03,700 the other thing it's like, no, you're talking about a desperate 408 00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:07,100 who's in power at all costs. The cost of his own people 409 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:08,700 murders. His own family members with 410 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,200 cannons. He's not going to react 411 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,500 rationally. It's like telling yourself that 412 00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:15,900 your cat is going to react rationally or your two year. 413 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:18,800 Olds going to react rationally. Why would they do that? 414 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,800 They're not looking at long-term consequences. 415 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,200 They're just trying to hold. Add on to the next day so they 416 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,100 don't die. And what you could say is it's a 417 00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:26,800 different form of rationality, right? 418 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,900 You could say, you know, right. Kim showing us a rational 419 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:32,000 person, based on how he calculates his interest and 420 00:19:32,008 --> 00:19:34,100 makes his decisions. And as you mentioned, he's 421 00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:37,700 driven mainly by. How do I keep the Kim family 422 00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:41,600 regime in power, right? This is the only hereditary 423 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,400 Communist dictatorship in history, right? 424 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,300 And, and, you know, he doesn't want to be the one to let it go, 425 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,100 right? He's the third in line. 426 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,700 Well, also, there's probably no safe place on Earth for somebody 427 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:55,100 like Because even if he negotiated a treaty with half 428 00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:57,800 the world and said, look, leave me alone, I'm going to go live 429 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,700 in privacy and Panama like the Shah of Iran did in the 80s or 430 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:04,000 something like that. Someone's going to go find that 431 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,200 guy and that's going to be the end of it. 432 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,000 He has too many enemies over too long of a period of time. 433 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,300 I mean even if it's just the North Korean people, they're 434 00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:13,900 going to trample him to death. They get half a chance, right? 435 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:17,700 And those in his Network to write this out of criminalized 436 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:21,100 patronage Network that he's created or around him. 437 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:24,500 And so this This ruling class is fearful right there in your full 438 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:26,400 of any kind of the North Koreans. 439 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,300 Just, I think, at one point he will maybe I should have a say 440 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,700 in how I'm governed, you know, maybe I should end this corrupt. 441 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,300 Brutal dictatorship that is just ringing the life out of the 442 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:39,100 country. I mean, as start millions of 443 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:42,100 their own people, it seems like there's no win for them because 444 00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:45,000 even the elite in that country are people that probably make 445 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,600 the equivalent of 50,000, maybe half that US dollars per year. 446 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,800 They can't go live in Monaco or Panama. 447 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,300 For the rest of their lives, if they call it quits over there, 448 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:58,300 they will be eaten alive. So they're holding the wolf by 449 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:00,600 the ears over there. But, you know, I think what's 450 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,100 changed a little bit in North Korea. 451 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:04,400 One of the factors that are bringing out in the book, is 452 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,100 this, there is kind of a new class. 453 00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,400 They're like, it's kind of an emerging middle class or 454 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,300 privilege, classmate in Pyongyang. 455 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,900 And it's not clear what, how they're going to react when they 456 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:15,800 start, really, really feeling the pinch of maximum pressure 457 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,700 and it's unprecedented. Un sanctions have been placed. 458 00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:20,500 Thank goodness. I mean, based on large measure 459 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,000 on Nikki Haley's her Ali and efforts there when she was our 460 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,300 ambassador to the UN so if we can actually get those sanctions 461 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,600 enforced, I think there's a chance. 462 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,400 Maybe that we can test this thesis that Kim Jong on can be 463 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,300 convinced that his regime is safer without these weapons than 464 00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:39,400 he is with them. Yeah that's a good point because 465 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,300 I think as soon as you get a I guess critical mass of people 466 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:44,500 that realize that the only way they're not going to starve to 467 00:21:44,508 --> 00:21:48,500 death is to walk across a frozen River to China and smuggle in 468 00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:51,300 and rice and other food. They're going to realize that 469 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:52,900 something is wrong. Especially when those people 470 00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:55,700 start to see the outside world, which is inevitable. 471 00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:57,800 I mean, even getting information is tough. 472 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,700 But if you have a cousin whose job, it is to go to China every 473 00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:03,100 week and smuggle food and goods in and out, they're going to 474 00:22:03,108 --> 00:22:05,900 tell you, hey, there are dog bowls with more food than we've 475 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:09,400 seen on any holiday on the floor in China, you know, there's 476 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:10,500 something wrong with our government. 477 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:13,700 I just liked this book by lock off called the real North Korea 478 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:15,800 and I used it heavily. As I was writing the chapter, 479 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,000 it's really well done. And the guys one of the most 480 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,700 foremost experts in and what was I think need about what he said. 481 00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:24,300 And you talked about how the, you know, the muun government, 482 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:25,800 South Korean government is really anxious. 483 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,700 You know, to remove the minefields and barriers between 484 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,700 north and south. And the point like oh it makes 485 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:33,000 us hate the main barriers psychological, right? 486 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:35,400 These are people who've been conditioned that you can't even 487 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,100 have an independent thought. So he thinks as you're alluding 488 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:41,800 to what is most important is to give them access to information, 489 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,700 get them to begin to have their own thoughts. 490 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,500 And that's the psychological barrier. 491 00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:50,000 The mental barrier that is going to be I think, most importantly 492 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,900 when eventually the peninsula Unifies right. 493 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:54,800 That's going to be the biggest obstacle I think. 494 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,100 Yeah it seems like it almost will happen from within the 495 00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:59,900 military what the South will end up getting some communication 496 00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:02,900 through a lot of effort and a lot of back-channeling that says 497 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,200 hey all that artillery. That's aimed at you. 498 00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:07,900 We're not going to fire that thing but we need you to come in 499 00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:09,600 and figure this out because it's so much. 500 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,600 I mean it's going to cost what three trillion to develop the 501 00:23:11,608 --> 00:23:15,000 North and that's just to build what roads and electrical 502 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,200 infrastructure. And it's not going to bring it 503 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,200 up to Snuff and the South that's going to take two generations. 504 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,700 Probably to do something like that. 505 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,100 At. Yeah a lot of your listeners are 506 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:25,700 probably seen this you know this nighttime satellite. 507 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:27,800 Yeah. Edge of of North Korea. 508 00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:28,600 You know what? Actually? 509 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,400 It's very sad situation in the north but you know we ought to 510 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,000 feel pretty good about what the situation looks like in the 511 00:23:34,008 --> 00:23:34,700 South. Right? 512 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:35,900 Yeah. Because you know at the end of 513 00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:38,500 the Korean War and this is one of the arguments are making the 514 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:42,300 book write about no short-term solutions to long-term problems, 515 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,600 the situation in South Korea. It look pretty bleak in 1953, 516 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,600 right? You had a country that was 517 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,600 devastated by Decades of War, a brutal occupation. 518 00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:54,200 Country had been stripped of your really. 519 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,500 Any tree is had no raw materials. 520 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,200 It had an illiterate population and a hostile neighbor. 521 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,800 Right? Who's going to sign up for that 522 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,900 program? What we did, right? 523 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:06,800 And the country didn't make a rapid progress, really until 70s 524 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,300 late 70s, and the 80s. The reforms of the 80s is when 525 00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,500 it really took off right now, the Korean people deserve the 526 00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:14,900 credit for me to share the South Koreans. 527 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:18,500 No friend of mine was a Catholic priest and a chaplain father, 528 00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:20,200 Vince Burns. One of the greatest guys in the 529 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,900 world Philadelphia and and And, you know, he said, yeah. 530 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:26,200 When I look at stuff three, I just think that after the war 531 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:29,000 they started rebuilding and didn't even take a coffee out 532 00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:34,100 because they are an incredibly, you know, industrious and and 533 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:36,900 entrepreneurial people and then but all that's been stifled in 534 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:38,200 the north right, what's different? 535 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,100 It's the same people north of the 38th parallel but the people 536 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:45,400 nor the 38th parallel have just been subjected to this, there's 537 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:51,500 totalitarian brutal regime. You're listening to the Jordan 538 00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:53,500 Harbinger show with our guest General. 539 00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:58,200 HR McMaster, we'll be right back and now, back to HR McMaster on 540 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,900 the Jordan Harbinger show. I actually, I've been to North 541 00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:05,600 Korea a few times on tours and things like that. 542 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800 And you see a lot of people that are really intelligent, I've 543 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,400 heard sort of, I guess you would call it not locker room talk, 544 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,300 what's the word I'm looking for like kind of like when you're 545 00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:16,600 going to the bathroom and you're like so what's it really? 546 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,300 Like you know there's guys that have told me things like we just 547 00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:21,800 want to be normal. And all this Kim Jong-il all 548 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,100 this Kim jong-un's stuff. A lot of people think it's 549 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,200 pretty stupid, but we just don't want to get in trouble and then 550 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,500 you leave the bathroom and it's like, sorry, I don't speak 551 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,500 English, right? I mean, it's interesting to hear 552 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,600 that kind of thing, because it's not that everyone thinks that 553 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:33,700 way. But there's certainly an 554 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,400 educated middle / higher class where they just go. 555 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:37,900 This is the dumbest thing in the world. 556 00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:40,000 I've been to China. I want on a business trip. 557 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,300 I know they have electricity after 9 p.m. unlike us. 558 00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:44,300 Right? What's a North? 559 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:46,500 Korean regime is Donna's. You know, they've done really 560 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:49,500 not as sophisticated as China has from a technological 561 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:51,400 perspective. Give but they've weaponized 562 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,200 people's social networks. Right. 563 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,100 So you haven't, they have informants spread out, like, 564 00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:57,900 with in every village. And, you know, if there are 565 00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,900 suspected of saying your crossword against a regime, they 566 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:03,500 just disappear. And they go on these gulags or 567 00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:04,600 worse. Yet they're killed, you know. 568 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,000 So it's really it's a humanitarian catastrophe there 569 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,600 in the north and it's worth calling that out. 570 00:26:10,700 --> 00:26:12,300 You're a little bit disappointing, these days and, 571 00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:15,000 you know, I got taught some more of my chakra and friends about 572 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,600 it. South Korea seems like they're 573 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,900 not as supportive of some of the escapees from the north as they 574 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:23,000 Past and I don't understand that, you know, I think that the 575 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,200 right answer is to welcome them, right? 576 00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:27,900 Give them a jump start, you know, as entrepreneurs in the 577 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:30,500 South and help them with education, right? 578 00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:33,200 Because if and when that Peninsula your comes back 579 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,300 together they're going to need a Cadre of people who go can go up 580 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,200 to the north. Yeah, and can help rebuild, what 581 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,700 is becoming a more and more kind of destitute but you know, 582 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,400 dangerous place, right? Because you know the Kim regime, 583 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,300 they make the choice, whether resources go and they haven't 584 00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:49,900 been cutting back on the missile program. 585 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,400 Or the nuclear program or the military broadly? 586 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,800 Yeah, it's scary. I used to live in the former 587 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,200 East Germany at that was a reunification process that was 588 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,100 markedly different. Cause it was just like, Hey, 589 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:01,500 we're all the same people, get the cranes out. 590 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:04,100 Let's build up the city of Berlin and then go and clean 591 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:05,100 out. All these old chemical 592 00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:08,500 factories, and sell them to Dow and have a modernized North 593 00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:11,700 Korea's starting from like 50 years behind where East, Germany 594 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:14,900 was, and probably a lot more of a cultural barrier, because at 595 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:17,700 least in East Germany. They knew who Pink Floyd was in 596 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:19,700 the head. Bon Jovi records instead, but 597 00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:23,400 Annie In North Korea it's like just a complete wall, right? 598 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,400 Just what you see, some of the latest tensions between North 599 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,600 and South about rich. Some of these groups that have 600 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,800 been sending information into the North Via balloon, right? 601 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,500 This is what really has Pyongyang up in arms. 602 00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:37,300 It's why they blew up the building. 603 00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:39,900 That was supposed to help coordinate between north and 604 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:41,700 south. And and you really that's I 605 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:43,600 think what they see as the greatest threat to them, right. 606 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,700 As any kind of information that the regime does not directly 607 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:49,800 control going back, started to the macro level you. 608 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,700 Talk about integrated strategies. 609 00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:55,700 So not only mapping out, strategies of combat, or of 610 00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:59,100 relations, but also the emotions and ideology behind other 611 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:00,900 nations in their actions. We're kind of touching on this 612 00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:04,000 right now, with North Korea, you mentioned as well with Iran. 613 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,500 Is somebody actually doing that or was it just something you 614 00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:08,200 recommend? And it's like your office does 615 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,200 it? But other people are kind of 616 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,100 going. Now we don't need that. 617 00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:13,900 We just need Invasion plans. No we actually did right and 618 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:16,400 what's really important about to understand about the National 619 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,600 Security Council staff is that that National Security Council 620 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,500 was that? Alt after World War Two And it 621 00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:24,900 on the beginning of the Cold War to avoid another Pearl Harbor, 622 00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:26,300 right? That was one of the big lessons 623 00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:28,200 of Pearl. Harbor is your, this one agency 624 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,300 knew this but the other didn't know, it was also less time 625 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:33,300 9/11, you know, in the 9/11 commission and the establishment 626 00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:35,300 of the Director of National Intelligence, whatever you think 627 00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:38,000 that decision, I mean that was a it was an adaptation meant to 628 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,900 avoid that ever happening again. Well what do these sort of 629 00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:43,500 failures that we View? At least we understand better, 630 00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:46,500 at least in retrospect always highlight is a lack of 631 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:49,100 coordination and integration between departments and 632 00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:50,600 agencies. You could say At about the covid 633 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,600 response do is that in some of the biggest disappointments in 634 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,700 our ability to generate at, you know, biomedical response to the 635 00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,700 crisis was really having to do with lack of coordination and 636 00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:01,300 integration across the government. 637 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,800 The NSC staff is where that joint plays. 638 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,400 I think I can happen in the government, right? 639 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,300 Because you could appoint like Health and Human Services, hey 640 00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:10,900 lead a group of whatever but you know those other departments 641 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:12,300 don't work for that department, right? 642 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,600 They all work for the White House overall and whereas the 643 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,300 national screwdrivers never direct anything with the 644 00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:19,800 National Security advisor, should do is run up. 645 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:20,800 Process. Right? 646 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,000 That gives the results of the best analysis. 647 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,300 That's interdisciplinary analysis. 648 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,200 We talked about at the beginning of our conversation but then 649 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,200 also results in these integrated strategies where we can combine 650 00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:36,000 the elements of National Power. We have so many competitive 651 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,800 advantages, you know, as as the United States to be able to 652 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,900 integrate our diplomatic efforts our economic efforts our 653 00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:46,000 financial efforts informational efforts and then you military as 654 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,200 well. But intelligence so we have law 655 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,700 enforcement right? We can bring So many tools to 656 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:54,000 bear and especially if you extend that to our private 657 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,300 sector, where there's so much potential and then if you 658 00:29:57,300 --> 00:30:00,900 extended even further to our like-minded partners and allies 659 00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:03,900 internationally, I mean, we can do this, we can overcome these 660 00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:06,700 challenges and I think, oftentimes, we just don't think 661 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,900 clearly enough about how to integrate those elements so that 662 00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:12,600 their synergistic rep. Yeah. 663 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,000 Or at least not in conflict with each other, right? 664 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,600 If we can just get everybody pulling in the same direction 665 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:19,800 and then what you do is you develop a high level. 666 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,100 Strategy, right? You're not going to tell you the 667 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:24,800 Department of State how to do things or defense or anything 668 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,000 for the White House. That's not useful but you should 669 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,100 identify, where are the areas where the Departments have to 670 00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:31,900 work together? What are the important? 671 00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:34,800 Simultaneous actions and initiatives and programs. 672 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,800 And operations are to be conducted and what are 673 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,100 sequential, right? How do we build on each other? 674 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,800 And then once you have that strategy, you got to be 675 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,200 flexible, right? I mean, the over the world 676 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,300 changes, right? Ravishers react. 677 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,800 But without that strategy, when something happens, what I've 678 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,700 seen, it be governed. A lot of times, the high levels 679 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:53,100 of Specially our government in than just react to that event. 680 00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:56,100 Oh, look, what happened, an attack against us or a Kurdish 681 00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,000 referendum in Iraq, or fill in the blank. 682 00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:02,100 But if you have a strategy, you can say oh wow, you know this if 683 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:03,100 we didn't think that was going to happen. 684 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,300 But how do we Bend or Torque that event? 685 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,600 So we such as we can make progress toward our objectives, 686 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,300 right? How do we can overcome obstacles 687 00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:11,200 to progress or exploit opportunities? 688 00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:14,800 So I think strategies, you're never just written in stone and 689 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,300 like, you call it a day. Hey yeah, we're done problem 690 00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:20,900 solved, but without a strategy, your Reactive, right? 691 00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:23,600 And your, I think what much less effective at being able to 692 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,000 advance your interest from the outside looking in and 693 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,000 especially, from reading your book, correct me. 694 00:31:28,008 --> 00:31:30,300 If I'm wrong, I came away with the impression that China 695 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,200 certainly has a strategy. They've integrated their private 696 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,500 companies because every company is essentially owned by the 697 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,900 Communist Party in large part and also Russia / Vladimir 698 00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:41,100 Putin, because he's the only one pulling the strings over there, 699 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,800 has a strategy, but the US, like you said, seems to be reacting. 700 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:46,500 Meanwhile, Putin's like good, okay? 701 00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,400 I'm going to take that and move that piece over here. 702 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,400 And I want to do this in the China's doing, The same thing 703 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,700 all around the world and the US is kind of like juggling and 704 00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:56,200 then China throws us a chainsaw. And we're juggling that and 705 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,000 Putin throws us a grenade. We're juggling that but nobody's 706 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,900 going like hey what's the plan for putting all these things 707 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:03,700 down and then us moving forward with what we need to do. 708 00:32:03,900 --> 00:32:06,100 Well that's what we Endeavor to do and I believe that's what we 709 00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:08,300 produced Jordan. So if your listeners I'd 710 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:12,400 recommend the highly readable December, 2017, National 711 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,600 Security strategies that states. Oh yeah, we developed this for 712 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,600 President Trump and yeah I mean I think it's a A document, you 713 00:32:20,608 --> 00:32:22,600 know I mean I don't know who's going to win the election. 714 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,900 I think whoever does that document is going to stand the 715 00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:28,500 test of time and it reflects really us putting into place 716 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,800 some long overdue and important shifts in our approach to these 717 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,000 complex challenges in particular. 718 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,300 I think that the approach towards China, we do have a 719 00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:39,000 strategy. Now, you often hear all well, 720 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,200 you know, the truck ministration is doing X and Y and Z but they 721 00:32:42,208 --> 00:32:45,100 don't have a strategy. Well, you know, X Y & Z actually 722 00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:48,700 that amounts to a strategy. If we are protecting our 723 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:51,900 industry and our Search and development from China sustained 724 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:53,300 campaign of industrial Espionage. 725 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,800 That's a good thing. If we're simultaneously 726 00:32:55,900 --> 00:32:59,200 investing more, so we can maintain our technological 727 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,800 advantages in connection with the emerging data economy as 728 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,400 well. As from a perspective, that's a 729 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,800 good thing too. If we are indicting and calling 730 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,100 out apt 10, their main hacking organization, and we're doing it 731 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:13,000 with 12, other countries, simultaneously. 732 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,100 That sounds good to me if we're promoting transparent standards 733 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,700 and infrastructure investment internationally, if You are 734 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,200 conducting arms sales to the Taiwanese so they can deter 735 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,800 China from forcibly subsuming Taiwan into the mainland. 736 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,600 When you look at broadly, the broad range of efforts. 737 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,200 It is a strategy. It's pretty clear and I think 738 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,500 that, you know, whoever's elected in November will 739 00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:39,000 continue it. I think it's a really important 740 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,700 2004 policy is one of the reasons I wrote the book is. 741 00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:43,600 Yeah, it should be controversial. 742 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,200 Like if you're when we were attacked on 9/11, Al Qaeda 743 00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:49,700 didn't Target Democrats or Republicans. 744 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,000 Applicants right, right? They targeted Americans. 745 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,800 And so it's we need to come together on these challenges 746 00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:57,900 relevant to foreign policy and National Security and work 747 00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,100 together. And as you mentioned, you know, 748 00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:02,900 these are necrotic regimes, they can have a consistent long-term 749 00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:04,300 policy, right? They can announce, you know, 750 00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:07,500 China is made in China 2025, right, right? 751 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:10,300 Or by 2050, you know, the Chinese Communist party will 752 00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:13,300 have reached X, right? But we have to strive to do 753 00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:17,100 better because it seems like in this Parson environment where in 754 00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:19,699 Italy and demonstration comes in and gets any, what do I press? 755 00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,900 Us to do All Odds. Do you undo that? 756 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:23,600 Yeah. Do you think our divisions 757 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,100 domestically right now? Are one of the greatest threats 758 00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:28,100 to our national security. Absolutely. 759 00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:31,600 Jordan they are and your average grocery doing everything they 760 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,600 can to exploit them. I mean Russia is masterful at 761 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,100 this you know people talk about meddling in the election 2016 762 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,000 that was part of it. The election battling was part 763 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,400 of a campaign that was designed mainly to drive us apart from 764 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,199 each other and pit us against each other on really the three 765 00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,800 main issues, right? Number one Like 80% of the 766 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,699 Russian bot and troll traffic from this Ira, this internet 767 00:34:53,699 --> 00:34:54,900 internet research. Yeah. 768 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,100 Right was want to race then a distant second. 769 00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:01,100 You know, was were issues of immigration gun control and so 770 00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:04,000 forth, we can be our own worst enemies unless we come Together 771 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,600 As Americans and I hope we can restore confidence, you know, 772 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,400 and who we are and in our Democratic principles and 773 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,400 institutions and processes. Do you think we kind of slapped 774 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,800 after the Cold War ended? The USSR Falls? 775 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,800 There's no more authoritarian superpowers but we just think. 776 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,700 All right liberal democracy capitalism. 777 00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:23,500 Them. We win pack up all the tanks or 778 00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:24,800 whatever. We're good now. 779 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,200 And then it's like, Vladimir Putin goes, alright? 780 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,900 They are sleeping. They think they've won start 781 00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:31,600 screwing with him. I mean, that's what it looks 782 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,200 like from my perspective. Where, you know, I told these 783 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,000 stories in the introduction of the book, you know, that I bore 784 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,000 witness to this this growing confidence, right? 785 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,700 Because, you know, our regiment was patrolling the East West, 786 00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:44,300 German border the day, that East, Germany, lifted travel 787 00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:47,000 restrictions to the West, right? And so that was a time of great 788 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,200 Jubilation, right? And yeah, celebration, and it 789 00:35:49,207 --> 00:35:52,100 should have been We won the Cold War without firing a shot, 790 00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:53,700 right? The Soviet Union collapsed and 791 00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:57,800 so that was a boost to us and then our same regiments deployed 792 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,600 to a hot War and the Gulf War and demonstrate our ability to 793 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,500 overmatch Saddam Hussein's military. 794 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,300 Then I think that led to a period of complacency based on 795 00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:10,400 that overconfidence in the 90s and that overconfidence was in 796 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:11,800 many ways, it was a setup, right? 797 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,600 Was a setup. I think for some of the 798 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,200 disappointments of the early 2000s, not just the 9/11 799 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,700 attacks, but but also the unanticipated, lengthen 800 00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:21,600 difficulties The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. 801 00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:23,900 I read about how they've our confidence was shaken even more. 802 00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:26,900 You know, by the 2008 financial crisis, it's time for us. 803 00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:29,600 I think to get away from this kind of dramatic swing, you 804 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,200 know, from what was over optimism and maybe hubris right 805 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,500 to pessimism and like resignation maybe as we looked 806 00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:39,200 at foreign policy like how was something in the middle and 807 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,800 that's really what the book is an argument for. 808 00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:43,900 It seems like Putin and our enemies in general played a 809 00:36:43,900 --> 00:36:46,300 pretty poor hand. Well, and the US and Europe, 810 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,800 played a really great hand pretty poorly. 811 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:51,200 That's a very Broad. I realized, but would you agree 812 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,600 with that? I mean we it seems like we had 813 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,300 everything we needed and Putin was like, well, this is all, I 814 00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:58,200 got went all in and we just didn't react till now. 815 00:36:58,300 --> 00:37:00,600 Yeah, and you can get a lot done if you're absolutely 816 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,600 unscrupulous right. But Putin knows he's in a 817 00:37:02,607 --> 00:37:04,500 position of relative weakness, right? 818 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,300 The trends are in his favor. Especially now 2020s been a bad 819 00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:08,500 year for everybody, right? Yeah. 820 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:10,800 It's been a really bad year for Vladimir Putin, right? 821 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,200 It's supposed to be a big year for him. 822 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:15,100 He's supposed to have a big celebration of the victory in 823 00:37:15,107 --> 00:37:16,900 the Great Patriotic, War World War Two. 824 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,200 He was supposed to actually celebrate Extension in power, 825 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,600 that's changes to the Constitution until 2036 but of 826 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,800 course what? In a pandemic like it hit all of 827 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,800 us. What else did them collapse of 828 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,100 oil prices? Right? 829 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,100 The demographic Trends in the country are not good. 830 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:36,400 They got their economies, the size of Italy's or Texas has the 831 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,800 canal. What does Putin do? 832 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,400 He says, okay if I can't be on top I'm gonna drag everybody 833 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,000 else down. Yeah, that's what he's been 834 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,600 doing. You pictures himself as the last 835 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,600 man standing in Europe because everything he's doing to us, 836 00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:50,800 he's done it earlier. Are in many ways, more 837 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,000 intentionally to Europeans, right to divide European 838 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,300 countries from each other. And also to divide communities 839 00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:01,200 within each European country. Pit them against each other. 840 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,700 Again, it's his effort to drag everybody down. 841 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,200 It's a very Russian thing to do. And I don't mean that against 842 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,200 Russian people, I mean there's this in fact I think most 843 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,200 Russians will agree with this. There's this story and I always 844 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,100 get it wrong but it's a farmer has one cow and his neighbor has 845 00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:16,800 two cows and then he gets a wish or something like that and he 846 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,400 goes, okay, great kill. One of my neighbors cows like 847 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,500 not Me 15, cows kill one of my neighbors couch. 848 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,400 There's different variations of this to write like a guy loses, 849 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,500 an eye in his enemy has both of his eyes and he goes, oh, popo 850 00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:30,900 that guy's eyes out when he gets a wish and it's not just a 851 00:38:30,908 --> 00:38:33,400 Russian thing. But these are like parables in 852 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,300 Russian history that go well, before probably back through 853 00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:39,900 even the time of the Czar these things were existing, right? 854 00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:41,200 I tell the Russian peasant Story. 855 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,500 I mean that I got to give full credit to my colleague at 856 00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:45,100 Stanford. Catherine, Stoner, who told me 857 00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:47,800 that two cows story and I used the book. 858 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,700 It is a perfect metaphor, right? I mean Putin wants to kill our 859 00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:53,400 cowl and so let's not let him do it, right? 860 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,300 Let's, you know, let's not be our own worst enemies on this. 861 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,400 What do you think about countries like Germany? 862 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,700 Making these huge multibillion-dollar? 863 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,600 Is it, a natural gas pipeline? Basically is going to make 864 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,500 Germany, massively dependent on Russia. 865 00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:09,700 It seems like a terrible idea. I wouldn't want to buy a key 866 00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:14,500 part of my infrastructure from North Korea or Iraq for and 867 00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:16,200 Iraq's it for all intensive purposes. 868 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,700 At least a friendly country or not outright hostile. 869 00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:20,800 It seems like the worst idea. Ever, I just don't understand 870 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,200 it. It's a terrible idea and, you 871 00:39:22,207 --> 00:39:25,300 know, your President Trump, if he's been tough on Germany, you 872 00:39:25,308 --> 00:39:28,000 know, but, and I love Germany. I mean, I lived there for six 873 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,600 and a half years, you know, I love Chancellor Merkel. 874 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,600 I think the world of her, my one of my best colleagues, as 875 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,800 National Security advisor was Christoph voice, confront 876 00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:40,200 Germany, we were extremely well together, but, you know, Germany 877 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,900 has to step up at this stage, right? 878 00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:44,800 I mean, I think they may be on the cusp of doing it, I hope so 879 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,300 because I think they're seeing how aggressive China's been, and 880 00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:51,700 they're also seeing with the Seeing of navalny hooten's, may 881 00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:55,900 not political adversary with this novichok nerve agent and 882 00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:57,800 then it him Landing in Germany for medical care. 883 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,000 I mean okay I think more evidence do you need. 884 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:03,400 So I think what Germany could really do a step up on defense 885 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:04,900 spending right? They spend all you like one 886 00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:08,000 percent of their GDP and we had this European deterrence 887 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,000 initiative where we're spending about nine billion dollars a 888 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,500 year. More defense wise to rotate our 889 00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:16,400 forces to Germany. Hey, that's like 33% of play 890 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,700 chirping. He's the best. 891 00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:19,200 But yeah, but step it up, you know? 892 00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:21,400 And the Is, as you mentioned North stream to, you know, the 893 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,300 gas pipeline. I think it's a no-brainer. 894 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:25,400 Your thing is, there's a good sourcing of that gas. 895 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,300 Now certainly through Ukraine, which could be disadvantaged if 896 00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:33,200 that pipeline, was shut down. But also now, the u.s. is a big 897 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,000 exporter, could be a huge exporter of liquid natural gas, 898 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,700 which by the way is great for the environment relative to 899 00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:43,600 other fossil fuels bridge to get the Renewables Germany in the 900 00:40:43,607 --> 00:40:45,800 energy sector men that they made a mistake, right? 901 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,100 It made a mistake, they said, okay? 902 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,000 And where do you go to 100% Renewables? 903 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,000 And then it So we're not gonna do any nuclear. 904 00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:53,900 Well I mean you can't do that. That's not going to work right 905 00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,300 back in a few weeks on me. So this is one of the reasons 906 00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,100 why they're there on a path to becoming overly dependent on 907 00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:02,100 Russia and the bad part is you know, Russia will use that 908 00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:05,600 energy to course, Germany, of course, got ya doing that 909 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,300 already, you know internationally. 910 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:09,800 So you're making a really important Point toward, I think 911 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,600 that it's time now. Really, this is why the subtitle 912 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,400 of the book is here. The fight to defend the Free 913 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,500 World. Okay, so hey, free world. 914 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:19,000 Yeah, let's work together. Let's work together on these 915 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:19,400 problems. Yeah. 916 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,400 It's Seems like in so many ways and the United States also has 917 00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:24,000 been doing this to a certain extent. 918 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,100 So I don't mean to pick on Germany. 919 00:41:25,100 --> 00:41:27,000 I've got family there, I used to live there as well. 920 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,900 I love the place that's why I worry about it. 921 00:41:28,900 --> 00:41:31,000 I also worry about Russia because I think the people are 922 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,200 amazing and I think you mentioned this in the book, we 923 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:34,600 need more immigration from Russia. 924 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,900 We need more immigration, from China, not only because we can 925 00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:40,000 force a brain drain on those countries, but because we who 926 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,100 doesn't want the best people, some of the best people in the 927 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:44,000 world to come and live in the United States and work in the 928 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,000 United States. I always like to highlight 929 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,200 these. Because inevitably, when I do 930 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,500 this, I get emails from Germany, Russia, China there. 931 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:52,100 Like, hey man, why you such a jerk, why don't why do you hate 932 00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:52,900 us? And it's not, no. 933 00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:56,500 I want the people to live in a society where they don't get put 934 00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:58,900 in the equivalent of a gulag because they sneezed in the 935 00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:02,400 wrong direction and their family has upward Mobility, because 936 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,800 it's not just a crony based corrupt economy, where only 937 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,300 friends of Vladimir and his buddies can get jobs. 938 00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:12,300 We want that to change right? You know, Jordan wants a great 939 00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:15,700 example and I use this in the book as well as is your when 940 00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:19,000 chairman Square massacre happened in 1989 President, 941 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,100 George HW, Bush said, hey if you're a Chinese students 942 00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:24,300 studying United States, you get a green card you can speaker and 943 00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:26,900 you know, tens of thousands of Chinese students took him up on 944 00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:27,700 it. And, you know, there's some of 945 00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:30,600 our most productive greatest citizens these days, right? 946 00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:34,700 So I mean, what if we were to say, hey if you are a Chinese 947 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,000 employee of an American company in China and you and your family 948 00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:44,500 are subjected to the coercion of the party from the United States 949 00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:46,500 will give you a special benefit parole Visa. 950 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,700 I mean I think that turns the tables and that's always been 951 00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:51,700 our strength, right? I mean think about the great 952 00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:56,000 minds that fled the Holocaust and came to the United States. 953 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,500 Yeah, I mean and who really were the foundation? 954 00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:01,900 Many of them for the technological advantages. 955 00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:04,100 We've enjoyed in the 20th century. 956 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,600 There are so many stories of where country of immigrants. 957 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,000 Yeah. And you when you hear the 958 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,500 discourse on immigration, everybody's always talking about 959 00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:12,700 like who we don't want it, what are we talking about? 960 00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:15,400 Like who we do want, right? I mean, do you buy into 961 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,800 individual freedom to our democratic form of government? 962 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,700 Are you a tolerant person? You know, tell Of religion and 963 00:43:20,700 --> 00:43:23,600 sexual orientation. I mean, do you respect others, 964 00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:25,700 right? Do you believe in rule of law? 965 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,300 Do you believe that if you work hard in our free market economic 966 00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:31,100 system, you can make a better life for you and your children 967 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:33,000 and grandchildren. Hey, if the answer to those 968 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,900 questions are, yes, you'll come on, you know, join us. 969 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:42,300 This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest General HR 970 00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:45,700 McMaster, we'll be right back. Thank you for listening and 971 00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,300 supporting the show, your support of our advertisers keeps 972 00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:51,000 us going to learn more More and get links to all the great 973 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,000 discounts you've just heard. So you can check out those 974 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,500 amazing sponsors for yourself. Visit, Jordan, Harbinger.com 975 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,500 deals and don't forget the worksheet for today's episode, 976 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:03,100 that link is in the show notes as well at Jordan Harbinger.com 977 00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:05,600 podcast. And now, for the conclusion of 978 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:11,300 our episode, with General HR McMaster Speaking of Education, 979 00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:15,500 it seems like education as our best defense against things like 980 00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:17,900 manipulation especially online, which we're dealing with right 981 00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:18,800 now. Going back to what you were 982 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,100 talking about with Russia and Vladimir Putin, these 983 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:23,700 disinformation campaigns. Does the military ever come out 984 00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:26,800 and say hey if we didn't have so many uneducated Knuckleheads, we 985 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,500 might be better able to defend ourselves because it seems like 986 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:30,800 y'all are being quiet over there. 987 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,200 Like we need to what's going on. We this is obviously a huge 988 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,600 problem and people go oh I'd occasionally you know we need to 989 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,400 read up on this. It's more than that. 990 00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:42,500 Like we really need a national effort to improve our education 991 00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:44,700 system. I went to a public school as a 992 00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:47,500 kid and it was a good one and I remember thinking this is pretty 993 00:44:47,500 --> 00:44:50,300 bad, you know. And that was in the 80s and 90s. 994 00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:53,800 Now it's worse and it's the majority of our education seems 995 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,600 like is in the hands of parents especially with the covid thing 996 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,900 in the homeschooling. I got lawyers friends over here 997 00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:00,600 teaching fractions in the leg held me. 998 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,400 What are we doing? We have to demand real reform, 999 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,800 right? And my mom taught for over 30 1000 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,400 years in Inner City, Philadelphia was just an amazing 1001 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,200 educator. You and sensitize me to and from 1002 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,300 early age on how its most important factor in determining 1003 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,000 when it starts going to be successful, if your family is 1004 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,000 well obviously sure, but I think it's time to really demand real 1005 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,800 reforms, you know, and if teachers unions are an obstacle, 1006 00:45:22,900 --> 00:45:25,000 we've got to tell them. Hey, you can't construct perform 1007 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,000 anymore. Unions. 1008 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,000 Have a purpose. But some of these unions have 1009 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,600 gone beyond their purpose because their Defenders of 1010 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:35,200 mediocrity, their Defenders of, really the soft bigotry of low 1011 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,700 expectations. Now, I think school choice is a 1012 00:45:37,707 --> 00:45:39,400 way out of this. Potentially, we need it. 1013 00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:42,800 Combinations of policy remedies and we need to demand it. 1014 00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:45,800 This is why I hope that, you know, there is a period of 1015 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,900 introspection that follows, these triple crises of the 1016 00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:52,000 pandemic, the recession, the divisions in our society, laid 1017 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,900 bare by the horrible, murder of George Floyd and and then the 1018 00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:57,900 anger over in equality of treatment, and inequality of 1019 00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:00,200 opportunity in our country. Okay, let's roll up our sleeves 1020 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,800 and do something about it and have meaningful discussions 1021 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,300 based on facts, real facts, you know, instead of defund, the 1022 00:46:06,308 --> 00:46:10,100 police come on now, is that good V in terms of, Security in our 1023 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:11,900 cities. And we're seeing me right now, 1024 00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:15,800 the lunacy of that now, and how it's actually inflicting more 1025 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,700 suffering on our most vulnerable and disadvantaged communities. 1026 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:22,200 Right? So what we need and I this is 1027 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,700 the argument make on climate change as well and we don't have 1028 00:46:24,700 --> 00:46:28,400 any more time for non Solutions, we need real solutions for these 1029 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,600 problems. Do you think climate change is a 1030 00:46:30,607 --> 00:46:32,800 huge threat. I know the book mentions this as 1031 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,900 well, and you talked about it on 60 Minutes. 1032 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,600 I think a lot of people go, well, if you think, climate 1033 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,400 change is such a big deal, why leave the The cords and you made 1034 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,900 an interesting point on that and I would love for you to take us 1035 00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:45,300 through that because when we left the Paris Accords I thought 1036 00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:48,100 okay officially we just don't care anymore but you have a good 1037 00:46:48,100 --> 00:46:50,000 counter point. Well, Jordan, I mean, I already 1038 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,900 first to stay in it. I just see the downside, you 1039 00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:53,200 know, but of course, there are those who argue. 1040 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,500 Hey, listen, these goals are that we signed up to that. 1041 00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:58,000 Could put us at a significant disadvantage but what really, 1042 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,400 when I revised my assessment of it was really after the fact 1043 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,900 after we were out of thought you know what, it may be a good 1044 00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:07,100 thing that we left because the Paris Accord was giving us a 1045 00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:10,300 false sense of security climate. Change is a problem. 1046 00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:12,700 It is man-made and we can do something about it, but the 1047 00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:15,300 Paris Accord is not the right thing, because it gives the 1048 00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:18,800 biggest polluters in the world. The ability to continue to 1049 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,300 poison the Earth. And what we need is, we need 1050 00:47:21,300 --> 00:47:25,300 solutions to this problem that are economically feasible 1051 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,600 globally, including in developing economies. 1052 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,000 And this is where I'm really excited about some of the new 1053 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,000 technologies. Renewables are going to be much 1054 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,300 more affordable but look at what happened in United States. 1055 00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:40,600 We reduced our carbon emissions. Way Beyond what everybody 1056 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,900 thought was possible. And it happened by really an 1057 00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:46,300 unanticipated development called fracking, which gave then us 1058 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,200 access to a vast amount of natural gas drove the price of 1059 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,300 natural gas down and then incentivised to transition out 1060 00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:55,400 of coal to natural gas. That's what did it. 1061 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,200 So that's the kind of change. We need internationally other 1062 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,600 promising technologies that I cover in the book or you know, 1063 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,500 the Next Generation nuclear power for example, but there are 1064 00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:07,300 people who say our climate change is really bad, but I 1065 00:48:07,308 --> 00:48:10,700 don't like nuclear and we have to Go immediately off of fossil 1066 00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:12,200 fuels. Well, you know what economic 1067 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:13,900 impact is that going to have? We're going to be running on 1068 00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:15,900 hamster wheels to keep the lights on exact. 1069 00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:19,000 So it gets to this point of view a no more non Solutions. 1070 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,400 Let's have real solutions. Yeah, when the consequences of 1071 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,100 inaction are left to Future Generations, in action will rule 1072 00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:27,100 the day. And I can't remember if you said 1073 00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,400 something like that in the book, or if it just came to me in an 1074 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,500 inspiration, but it makes sense. I mean, if we're just sort of 1075 00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:35,600 like praying, that gen Z, figures this out, what are we 1076 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,000 going to do? We're going to sit here and burn 1077 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,300 coal and we owe it to ourselves real too. 1078 00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:41,800 Future generations to get to work on it but get to work with 1079 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,700 as I mention in a realistic way. And and really whatever we come 1080 00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:49,300 up with its as to be adopted in China and India and across 1081 00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:52,100 developing economies in Africa and Beyond you know, or else 1082 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,400 it's not going to solve the problem because obviously carbon 1083 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,400 emissions they don't respect country's borders. 1084 00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:01,400 The carbon Cloud over La has its origins in China, right? 1085 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,000 And so we have to recognize that my family in Germany. 1086 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,900 Sent me a photo of a red sunrise and I said, oh that's what it 1087 00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:08,900 looks like out. Here are a couple weeks ago and 1088 00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:10,600 he said yeah. It's the smoke from Silicon 1089 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,600 Valley blowing over on the jet stream and that's from a forest 1090 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,000 fire. Imagine something that lasts 20 1091 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,400 years instead of two weeks. I mean it's of course it's going 1092 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,700 to blow everywhere. We saw that was Chernobyl, I 1093 00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:23,300 think that was People's First sort of experience of. 1094 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,800 Wait you mean the Soviet Union can make a big Bungalow and it 1095 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,800 can end up in Germany and Poland. 1096 00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:30,700 Finland like, oh, maybe we should pay attention, maybe we 1097 00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:33,100 need to work together on this. When do you think we're going to 1098 00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:36,000 see conflict over things like water and food security that has 1099 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,600 to be right around the corner? Well it's and it's already 1100 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,300 happening someplace. Is right in and I used the 1101 00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:45,600 example of South Asia and India in particular and I think what's 1102 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,500 important about these problems is they're interconnected, 1103 00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:50,100 right? So you have interconnected 1104 00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:54,100 problems of energy environments and is also climate change 1105 00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:58,400 associated with that, then food security, water, security, and 1106 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,500 health security, right? These are all interconnected and 1107 00:50:00,500 --> 00:50:02,500 what happens? I think, oftentimes is we say, 1108 00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:04,800 okay, let's solve like one of those press, right? 1109 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,100 And when you do that, you create a ripple effect that makes other 1110 00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:10,000 problems worse than They were right? 1111 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,800 So for example, if food security is an issue and you just divert 1112 00:50:13,900 --> 00:50:17,900 water into agriculture, then you create a crisis in potable 1113 00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:19,700 water, right for your population. 1114 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,900 I wish I could go on with examples, but it's key to look 1115 00:50:21,900 --> 00:50:24,100 at these systemically. And, and I think, you know, it's 1116 00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:26,400 in all of our interest India has to succeed, right? 1117 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,000 I mean, you know, India is a big country with a lot of people, 1118 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,200 right? If there's a failure in India, 1119 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,300 it's going to affect all of us. And, and India is a democracy 1120 00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,800 and works, and kind of a, you know, a kind of a strange way, 1121 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,200 but it works. And I think that we ought to 1122 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,300 work together with India, as really, an example, maybe that 1123 00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:46,100 could be then adopted more broadly, hopefully by China, 1124 00:50:46,700 --> 00:50:49,800 especially associated with these interconnected problems. 1125 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,600 A lot of people think that action by the United States 1126 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,800 creates Islamic extremism hostile. 1127 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,500 Russia hostile, North Korea, and antagonist, China Oliver Stone 1128 00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:01,600 made this argument on the show. Hey, if we just mind our own 1129 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,700 business, these people have better things to do than bother 1130 00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:05,800 us. They're just trying to handle 1131 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,600 their own business. I don't buy that for a second, 1132 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,200 but can You set us straight on this because I, you're in a 1133 00:51:11,207 --> 00:51:13,900 better place to say whether or not action by the United States, 1134 00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:17,400 is creating these enemies, or if they were there before, what's 1135 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,800 your just think about how arrogant that is, right? 1136 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,800 So it's just like, this is like, you know, this is an 1137 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,200 interpretation, you know, that is a historical, but it's also 1138 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,700 profoundly arrogant because, you know what we're saying is, hey 1139 00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:31,600 others, they have no aspirations of their own. 1140 00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:34,500 The only react to What We Ready, do, right? 1141 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,300 They have no authorship over the future and so I it's crazy. 1142 00:51:38,300 --> 00:51:42,100 We didn't cause Jihad Terrorism. We didn't cause the Iranian 1143 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,500 Revolution, and therefore, the 40-year long proxy war against 1144 00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:48,200 us. You often hear this on Russia. 1145 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,500 You know, that we were just so me to rush in the not know, we 1146 00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:53,700 weren't, but we did everything. We could at the time to help 1147 00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:55,900 Russia. Make that transition, from the, 1148 00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:58,900 Soviet Union to a representative government and free market 1149 00:51:58,900 --> 00:52:00,500 economic system. That didn't work, right? 1150 00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:02,800 Just didn't work. And in China you hear the same 1151 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,500 argument to, you know, gosh if the Trump ministration wasn't so 1152 00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:08,500 mean then try to wouldn't be much better and play by the 1153 00:52:08,500 --> 00:52:10,900 rules really house. At working out with covid-19, 1154 00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:14,900 with wolf Warrior diplomacy with bludgeoning Indian soldiers to 1155 00:52:14,900 --> 00:52:17,200 death on the Himalayan. Frontier with unprecedented 1156 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,100 cyber attacks across all sectors against Australia. 1157 00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:23,700 You know with a land, grab in the South China Sea with 1158 00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:26,800 repressing freedom, in Hong Kong with threatening, Taiwan is 1159 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,300 United States, making them do that. 1160 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,700 I don't think so. Are we making him wage a 1161 00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:33,500 campaign of cultural genocide? And shinjang, I don't think so. 1162 00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:36,400 So I think that it's a profoundly, arrogant 1163 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,200 interpretation and it's typically is used To justify 1164 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,200 retrenchment or withdraw from these complex problems overseas. 1165 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,100 But, you know, as we know with covid-19, it's much better to 1166 00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:49,700 deal with what the problem is over there. 1167 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,100 You know, abroad before it gets to our Shores. 1168 00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:56,000 Because then coping with it is usually at a much higher cost 1169 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,600 and I think the pandemics an analogy for that or an example 1170 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,700 of that and shows 911, what do you think about folks who say 1171 00:53:02,700 --> 00:53:04,900 bring all the troops home? Why don't we just stay out of 1172 00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:08,000 everything else and become isolationist like America was 1173 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,700 before Pearl Harbor? And WWII because there are a lot 1174 00:53:10,700 --> 00:53:12,800 of people that actually say things like that. 1175 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,000 Usually people that have friends and family in the surface. 1176 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,600 So I understand it, they want their family and friends out of 1177 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,100 Harm's Way. I'm not blaming those people but 1178 00:53:20,100 --> 00:53:23,900 it is based on a flawed assumption that we can just like 1179 00:53:23,900 --> 00:53:26,300 kind of unplug everything. And then it's not our problem 1180 00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:27,700 anymore. Well, you know, and I don't 1181 00:53:27,700 --> 00:53:29,900 blame people who have this thought, you know, because of 1182 00:53:29,900 --> 00:53:31,700 the frustrations, right associated with the 1183 00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:34,400 unanticipated length, and difficulty of the cost of the 1184 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,500 wars in Afghanistan Iraq. And and what the American people 1185 00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:42,200 haven't heard from leaders, Enough is, hey, what's at stake, 1186 00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:43,800 right? Why should they care? 1187 00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:45,700 What's important about this conflict? 1188 00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:48,900 And them and then what is the strategy, right? 1189 00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:51,300 What are we doing? Not just militarily but 1190 00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:53,900 diplomatically and informationally and economically 1191 00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:57,300 and so forth to achieve an outcome consistent with our 1192 00:53:57,300 --> 00:54:01,000 security and our interest at an acceptable cost, right? 1193 00:54:01,100 --> 00:54:03,700 That's what the American people deserve to hear. 1194 00:54:03,700 --> 00:54:06,800 And I think they've only heard that on occasion in the wars in 1195 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,900 Iraq and Afghanistan. Oftentimes, when we Have had 1196 00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:12,800 sound strategies in place. I think like The Surge and the 1197 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,200 aftermath of the surgeon, really? 1198 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,300 I think a win in Iraq. A very fragile and reversible 1199 00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:20,000 win in Iraq and followed sadly by the complete withdrawal. 1200 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,500 December 2011. And then, I think we had it in 1201 00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:25,800 Afghanistan with President Trump and his August 2017 speech on 1202 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,200 South Asia, strategy. That again, was abandoned. 1203 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,600 Prematurely it's tough for me to see it. 1204 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,500 I think the stakes are high in these conflicts but the American 1205 00:54:33,500 --> 00:54:36,000 people deserve better in terms of an explanation of. 1206 00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:39,200 Okay, so what and then what's the strategy, why? 1207 00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:42,100 Is the United States seemingly behind on cyber warfare? 1208 00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:44,400 Is it a matter of funding? Or are we actually really great 1209 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:45,900 at it? But it's not talked about as 1210 00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:48,100 much because we don't get caught where do we stand with this? 1211 00:54:48,100 --> 00:54:50,800 Because it seems very clear that this is where China and Russia 1212 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,200 are playing right now and probably in the future since 1213 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,400 they can't really come bat us militarily or physically what is 1214 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:57,900 it? What's the term kinetic Warfare? 1215 00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:00,100 They're just not up to Snuff they don't have carriers and 1216 00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:04,000 force projection like we do are we behind on that or what we're 1217 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,700 head on it we're the best in the world that's a relief but 1218 00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:08,600 there's no reason to be complacent right? 1219 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,200 Because If you have an adversary who's determined right to 1220 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,300 disrupts, Who attack, you know, we have a big attack surface. 1221 00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:18,800 You know, it's his you can't shoot down every arrow that's 1222 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,300 coming. In your system for a Cyber 1223 00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:24,000 attack whether it's for the purpose of Espionage or 1224 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,500 criminality or taking down critical infrastructure. 1225 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,700 So the critical part of this is a good offense is key. 1226 00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:32,500 Part of a good defensive. I think we've realized that made 1227 00:55:32,500 --> 00:55:34,800 some adaptations that are important but then also we have 1228 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,400 to be conscious of the fact that we're up against a very capable 1229 00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,100 State actors, you know, Russia China. 1230 00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:42,300 Actually a ranch getting better. North Korea is getting better. 1231 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,900 They all have different, like, kind of competitive advantages 1232 00:55:44,900 --> 00:55:48,100 with each other, right? You're really good at 1233 00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:50,800 cyber-enabled information Warfare and a bunch of other 1234 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,700 offensive cyber capabilities. China is really, really good at 1235 00:55:54,700 --> 00:55:57,400 Cyber Espionage and they're getting better and other forms 1236 00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,700 of disinformation and political subversion through cyberspace. 1237 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,200 Your North Korea is really good at Cyber criminality. 1238 00:56:03,300 --> 00:56:07,100 That's a big moneymaker for them and they're also good at 1239 00:56:07,100 --> 00:56:09,500 retribution attacks against like, Sony remember, On the 1240 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,100 rank. And then Iran has been good at 1241 00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:15,300 destructive attacks, like against Saudi aramco, they did a 1242 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,500 Cyber attack, they did that drone attack recently. 1243 00:56:17,500 --> 00:56:20,200 But he before they think of Cyber attack on Saudi aramco and 1244 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,300 they attacked our financial system that denied service for a 1245 00:56:23,300 --> 00:56:26,000 period of time which impel dusting make our defenses 1246 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,500 better. This is years ago. 1247 00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:31,200 So there we have to be cognizant of the range of State actors and 1248 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,200 how they're evolving. And this is a contest. 1249 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,800 I mean, during this is going on every day, every day, we have 1250 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,500 Americans in this fight every day, And we have to be cognizant 1251 00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:43,200 of non-state actors now to we're trying to get these capabilities 1252 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,800 and what's critical about that as you know you can deter a 1253 00:56:45,808 --> 00:56:48,900 nation-state because you can hold something of value to them 1254 00:56:48,900 --> 00:56:51,300 at risk, right? But the non-state actor, it's 1255 00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:55,000 harder to do that and so I think that this is a big element of 1256 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,000 what I emphasizing the book is the need for us to really 1257 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,700 maintain our Edge on this. But then also from a defensive 1258 00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:03,200 perspective, you know, we need systems that can degrade 1259 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,200 gracefully, there aren't vulnerable to catastrophic 1260 00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,100 failure and we held that in from the beginning, right? 1261 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,000 Right. I mean, if we're, if we're 1262 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,000 building sensitive technology with components from China, I 1263 00:57:14,008 --> 00:57:16,800 mean, that's probably really stupid to do at this point, 1264 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,000 right? And so, we have vulnerabilities 1265 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,500 associated with what people think I software and hackings. 1266 00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,300 Hey, but their hard work, vulnerabilities to, there are 1267 00:57:24,300 --> 00:57:27,400 all sorts of vulnerabilities. And what these adversaries do is 1268 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,200 they look at your whole organization, they look at your 1269 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,000 whole person, your household and they're just looking for points 1270 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,400 of Entry there like a burglar looking for the open window, how 1271 00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,900 do I get in? So we have to be much more 1272 00:57:37,900 --> 00:57:39,100 security conscious than we've ever. 1273 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,700 How do the United States? Competitors view us right now. 1274 00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:44,900 In general, do they see us as weak? 1275 00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,000 I mean, it seems like they do, but obviously, you're the 1276 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,400 expert, they'll tell you, Jordan. 1277 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,600 I think that she is just weak right now and I think they see 1278 00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,300 what's going on in our country the divisiveness, right? 1279 00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:56,800 The the fact that were driven apart from each other based on 1280 00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,900 these divisions in our society. But what social media is doing 1281 00:57:59,900 --> 00:58:02,800 to a standstill by driving us apart with these algorithms to 1282 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,500 show you just more and more extreme information based on 1283 00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:08,100 your credit elections. The fact that you know if your 1284 00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:11,700 of one political Suasion. You watch one TV network and 1285 00:58:11,700 --> 00:58:14,200 somebody of a different political persuasion watches a 1286 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,200 different one, right? And so you're creating two 1287 00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,000 different realities instead of really, at least some kind of 1288 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,100 basis, right? For a common understanding, and 1289 00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:23,500 civil conversations across the political Spectrum. 1290 00:58:23,700 --> 00:58:26,000 We're doing this to ourselves toward, we got to stop, you 1291 00:58:26,008 --> 00:58:28,500 know, we got to stop it and I think everybody has a role, 1292 00:58:28,500 --> 00:58:29,800 right? We got to come together with in 1293 00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:31,700 our neighborhoods within our communities. 1294 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,800 I think it's possible. It should be possible to 1295 00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,400 celebrate our democracy. To celebrate that. 1296 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:42,200 Hey, we have a say in how we're That we are committed to those 1297 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,600 ideals that are in the Declaration of Independence that 1298 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,500 are in our Constitution. And we can still we can go that 1299 00:58:48,500 --> 00:58:50,500 far, but then we can recognize it. 1300 00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:53,800 We're imperfect, right? This is always been a journey 1301 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,400 for us after the revolution. We didn't resolve the greatest 1302 00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,800 contradiction in our constitution until almost 100 1303 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,600 years later with the our most destructive war in history that 1304 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,500 resulted in the emancipation of four million slaves. 1305 00:59:06,700 --> 00:59:08,500 Hey, that's good. You know, put that in the 1306 00:59:08,500 --> 00:59:10,300 positive. Um you know but then you have 1307 00:59:10,300 --> 00:59:13,600 the rise of the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Crow in the South, okay? 1308 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,400 Put that in the negative column. Then you have a long struggle 1309 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,500 for civil rights. Do you have women's suffrage? 1310 00:59:18,500 --> 00:59:20,600 Well, imagine that, you know, women can vote and everything 1311 00:59:20,700 --> 00:59:23,600 that didn't comments book, you probably the early 20th century. 1312 00:59:23,900 --> 00:59:25,200 We have the Civil Rights Movement. 1313 00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:29,700 You have the dismantling of the legal basis for Jim Crow in the 1314 00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:33,100 60s, but hey, we're not high five and yet, right? 1315 00:59:33,100 --> 00:59:36,300 We still have more work to do. So let's think about let's work 1316 00:59:36,300 --> 00:59:40,900 together to really to make our Public better every day and 1317 00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:42,400 there are some who don't want to do that. 1318 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,500 They think that. Hey, you can't even empathize. 1319 00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:47,500 You're even allowed to empathize with some people anymore and 1320 00:59:47,700 --> 00:59:49,800 it's a real tragedy. It's a real tragedy. 1321 00:59:49,900 --> 00:59:53,400 Well in closing I want to just get this out of the way because 1322 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,100 I'm sure a lot of people are waiting for it and they're going 1323 00:59:55,100 --> 00:59:57,600 to be disappointed. I was pleasantly surprised. 1324 00:59:57,700 --> 01:00:00,700 You didn't write a book that talked much at all about Donald 1325 01:00:00,700 --> 01:00:02,400 Trump. It was just not there. 1326 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,400 It was a book that was about a world in disarray, what we're 1327 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:06,900 doing about it. That would direction we need to 1328 01:00:06,908 --> 01:00:09,000 go, I know this was obviously a conscious decision. 1329 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,400 And your publisher was probably really bummed that you didn't 1330 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,500 throw in any drama. I'm glad you did because 1331 01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:17,400 otherwise we wouldn't have been able to have this conversation 1332 01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,200 on the show because I typically avoid that stuff. 1333 01:00:19,300 --> 01:00:22,100 But why did you choose that? You probably could have cashed 1334 01:00:22,100 --> 01:00:24,300 out a nice fat check. Had you gone the other 1335 01:00:24,300 --> 01:00:25,800 direction? Yeah, Jordan up. 1336 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,100 Yeah. Begin with the prep for say, 1337 01:00:27,100 --> 01:00:28,700 this is the book that nobody wanted me to write, you know, 1338 01:00:28,700 --> 01:00:31,600 and I really felt like it wouldn't be useful. 1339 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,400 I want to make a contribution to bring Americans together to help 1340 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,600 us cope with our most crucial challenges. 1341 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,200 Right? There are plenty of tell-alls 1342 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:39,100 out there. There are plenty. 1343 01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:42,200 Palace Intrigue books out there and I hope that this book will 1344 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,700 be more substantive. That'll bring people together 1345 01:00:44,700 --> 01:00:47,400 across the political Spectrum to have meaningful discussions. 1346 01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,500 Look how we can when we had today, you know, and then and 1347 01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:52,900 then use that as a basis for working together to overcome 1348 01:00:52,900 --> 01:00:55,400 these challenges to take advantage of opportunities and 1349 01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,400 just build you a better future for generations to come. 1350 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,100 And then, the other part about this tortoise, I started the art 1351 01:01:01,100 --> 01:01:04,300 for 34 years. I've been studiously a 1352 01:01:04,300 --> 01:01:07,100 political, right? I don't want to get drug down 1353 01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:10,300 into vitriolic partisan. Hicks now, right? 1354 01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:13,600 And so, I hope that the book will transcend that for people 1355 01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,000 who helped get us on mired from that. 1356 01:01:17,100 --> 01:01:19,700 And then the other aspect of this is, you know, I was in a 1357 01:01:19,707 --> 01:01:22,500 position of privilege there. You know what's unique about the 1358 01:01:22,500 --> 01:01:25,100 National Security advisor, position is you're the only 1359 01:01:25,100 --> 01:01:28,300 person with in the foreign policy establishment, who has 1360 01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:31,100 the president as his or her only client, right? 1361 01:01:31,300 --> 01:01:34,600 If during a present his tenure and National Security advisor, 1362 01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:38,000 die rights until all like, what future presence could ever trust 1363 01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,700 her National Security. And by the way, I was in uniform 1364 01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:43,000 at the time just going to trust a senior military officer. 1365 01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:45,800 So I think it would have been irresponsible for me to write, 1366 01:01:46,100 --> 01:01:49,300 you know, kind of a tell-all or Palace entry and this was more 1367 01:01:49,300 --> 01:01:51,900 gratifying for me. I worked with a great team of 1368 01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:53,600 research systems here at Stanford. 1369 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,200 It was like a it was part of myself education as well. 1370 01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,900 You know, I mean I really am grateful for the opportunity of 1371 01:01:59,900 --> 01:02:02,300 done it. I hope that your listeners judge 1372 01:02:02,300 --> 01:02:04,700 it to have been worthwhile and I really appreciate the 1373 01:02:04,707 --> 01:02:07,000 opportunity to be with you. Yeah, this has been excellent in 1374 01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,600 the book. Don't think you got the gist of 1375 01:02:09,607 --> 01:02:12,100 the book listening to this. It goes into Iran. 1376 01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:15,500 China Russia, North Korea. Afghanistan Iraq. 1377 01:02:15,500 --> 01:02:17,600 Am I forgetting anything? There's probably more. 1378 01:02:17,700 --> 01:02:20,400 Well, except that it's just super readable and fun. 1379 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,800 Yeah, I know. He's just depressing topics, 1380 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:25,400 man. But what I want to say is a it 1381 01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,200 is a message of positive message, right? 1382 01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:30,000 We can emerge from these challenges covid, we can emerge 1383 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,600 stronger and so Jordan, thank you so much for the privilege of 1384 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,300 being with you. Yeah, this was really excellent. 1385 01:02:34,300 --> 01:02:36,700 I really appreciate your time. Well, I appreciate it. 1386 01:02:36,700 --> 01:02:39,000 Thanks for the opportunity have really a full conversation on 1387 01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:39,400 it. Man. 1388 01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:40,900 But I felt like we would connect Max. 1389 01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:43,000 I just I like the pace of the conversation. 1390 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:44,900 I mean I really enjoyed it or thanks a lot. 1391 01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:47,600 Hopefully we can continue the conversation at some point and 1392 01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,000 get together in person. Sometime my pleasure have a 1393 01:02:50,008 --> 01:02:51,600 great week we'll talk soon. Take care. 1394 01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,900 Bye. I've got some thoughts on this 1395 01:02:54,900 --> 01:02:57,600 one, but before I get into that, here's a quick preview of my 1396 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,700 two-parter with Eric Aude. This is one of the craziest 1397 01:03:00,700 --> 01:03:02,500 stories I've ever heard on this show. 1398 01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:05,900 He was tricked into unknowingly smuggling opium into Pakistan 1399 01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,900 ends up in a prison. He's a stuntman and he used a 1400 01:03:08,908 --> 01:03:11,600 lot of his skills to survive against the police and other 1401 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,700 inmates. This story is just bananas. 1402 01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:15,200 Here's a quick bite from that one. 1403 01:03:16,500 --> 01:03:19,100 Pakistan was just one of many bad things have happened to me 1404 01:03:19,100 --> 01:03:21,200 in my life. I've had so many things happen 1405 01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:22,500 and I just learned to get over it. 1406 01:03:22,500 --> 01:03:25,900 You know, you get knocked down six times, you get up seven and 1407 01:03:25,900 --> 01:03:27,600 that's the only way I've ever known how to live. 1408 01:03:28,100 --> 01:03:31,600 When I got out of the cab with the suitcases to leave Pakistan, 1409 01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,600 the guy who was there as like next time you come back, we'll 1410 01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:35,200 show you around. Will hook you up with some 1411 01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:36,600 girls. You have a great time and I'm 1412 01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:37,900 humoring this guy. I'm like yeah, sure. 1413 01:03:37,900 --> 01:03:40,000 Next time I come back. I know for a fact I'm never 1414 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,000 going back to Pakistan. Country sucks that in country 1415 01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,400 sucks and I'm good at finding like good things that have 1416 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,700 everywhere. So it's early in the morning and 1417 01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:51,800 I go into International departures and long line curve 1418 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,900 around the corner waiting in line and the line goes all the 1419 01:03:54,900 --> 01:03:57,500 way up, this wall to where there's Customs tables. 1420 01:03:57,900 --> 01:04:00,100 And when the Customs officer sees me in flag, makes them 1421 01:04:00,100 --> 01:04:02,800 about six inches taller than everyone and I get brought to 1422 01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,200 another room. Finally, the guy who asked me if 1423 01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:07,500 there is narcotics, and my suitcase comes in, he's holding 1424 01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:11,000 these two sandwiches filled things. 1425 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,100 And his exact words to me as what does this. 1426 01:04:14,300 --> 01:04:17,700 And I said, you know what it is. He says this is all film. 1427 01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,400 So why are you showing me this? Is it came out of your suitcase? 1428 01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:28,800 Felt like such a fucking idiot. Yeah, because I thought that the 1429 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,200 DEA was going to hook me up, you know, because they're going to 1430 01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,700 see that I'm innocent. I truly thought those guys are 1431 01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:34,800 going to be there to help me now. 1432 01:04:35,700 --> 01:04:38,400 It kind of wasn't guilty so that this shit doesn't happen. 1433 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:42,100 Innocent people, three years of my life for a crime, I didn't 1434 01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:43,800 know. I was being used to commit to 1435 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,600 hear the rest of one of the most harrowing stories I've ever 1436 01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,400 heard in my time doing this podcast. 1437 01:04:48,500 --> 01:04:52,400 Check out episode 1 for 7 with Eric Aude here on the Jordan 1438 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:56,400 Harbinger show. What a fascinating show? 1439 01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,300 Fascinating guy, he's huge on reading. 1440 01:04:58,300 --> 01:05:01,800 He actually said that he packed more books than clothes when 1441 01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,000 prepping for his job as the National Security advisor. 1442 01:05:05,100 --> 01:05:08,500 They actually tried to get him to resign by offering him a 1443 01:05:08,500 --> 01:05:10,300 fourth star. He ended up getting fired by 1444 01:05:10,300 --> 01:05:13,300 tweet, that's the world we live in these days by the way, HR 1445 01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:16,800 McMaster is that not an awesome name for a general? 1446 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,000 I think it's up there with Admiral mcraven. 1447 01:05:19,100 --> 01:05:22,800 As far as military names go, it really is not a ton of positive 1448 01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:24,900 news out of this one. I mean, we discussed a little 1449 01:05:24,900 --> 01:05:27,600 bit about There's but the terrorists now are stronger than 1450 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:31,400 they were on September 10 2001 Al Qaeda Isis there. 1451 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,500 An order of magnitude more capable than previous iterations 1452 01:05:35,500 --> 01:05:38,300 of terrorists. They really have, unfortunately, 1453 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,200 regrouped gotten their stuff together and as we've seen from 1454 01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:42,900 the news, they're just not slowing down. 1455 01:05:42,900 --> 01:05:45,500 I mean, it looks like we're taking care of them but they're 1456 01:05:45,500 --> 01:05:47,800 regrouping places like Pakistan Afghanistan. 1457 01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:50,500 I mean, this is a war that is not going to be one anytime 1458 01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:53,200 soon. And in America, the will to win 1459 01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:57,000 a war or to go to war is Is only as good as the information that 1460 01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:01,000 the public receives and our population, seems less informed 1461 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,100 and ironically, even less educated than ever before. 1462 01:06:04,100 --> 01:06:06,800 Even though we have internet in a ton of information were less 1463 01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:10,400 educated than a, then I can certainly remember this plus 1464 01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,100 outside disinformation. It just seems like a recipe for 1465 01:06:13,100 --> 01:06:15,100 disaster to me, you know, we have narcissistic 1466 01:06:15,100 --> 01:06:18,100 interpretations of History, which is often worse than 1467 01:06:18,100 --> 01:06:20,600 complete ignorance of history. When it comes to dealing with 1468 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:24,800 places like Iran and Iraq, and the Middle East and Iran uses 1469 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,800 this, Like, with the United States and Israel to divert from 1470 01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,300 their own corrupt, looting, and their oppression of their own 1471 01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:32,900 country. I worry about every country 1472 01:06:32,900 --> 01:06:35,700 doing that to their own people, to be honest, this book was 1473 01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:37,500 super engaging. If you're interested in, what's 1474 01:06:37,500 --> 01:06:41,900 going on in Iran, Iraq, Syria Afghanistan, North Korea, China. 1475 01:06:41,900 --> 01:06:44,200 If you're interested in world affairs, and global conflict, 1476 01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:45,900 like me, you're gonna dig this book. 1477 01:06:45,900 --> 01:06:48,300 It is a huge book, but it's a great read. 1478 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,300 So big thanks to General HR McMaster, the book is called 1479 01:06:51,300 --> 01:06:53,100 Battlegrounds. We will link it in the show 1480 01:06:53,100 --> 01:06:56,400 notes as we always do and if you buy it, Please use the links in 1481 01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,300 the show notes that helps support the show every little 1482 01:06:58,300 --> 01:07:00,700 thing adds up there. The worksheets for this episode, 1483 01:07:00,700 --> 01:07:03,200 are in the show notes. The transcripts of this episode 1484 01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:05,100 are in the show notes. And there's a video of this 1485 01:07:05,100 --> 01:07:07,700 interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan. 1486 01:07:07,700 --> 01:07:12,200 Harbinger.com YouTube, I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter 1487 01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,400 and Instagram, you can also hit me there on LinkedIn. 1488 01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,300 I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage 1489 01:07:17,300 --> 01:07:19,900 relationships using systems using tiny habits. 1490 01:07:19,900 --> 01:07:22,700 This is our networking course, it's a free course. 1491 01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:27,000 It's at Jordan Harbinger.com. / course, Dig that well before you 1492 01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:28,700 get thirsty, most of the guests on the show. 1493 01:07:28,700 --> 01:07:30,800 They've contributed to the course in some way, please come 1494 01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:32,500 join us and you'll be in smart company. 1495 01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,600 This shows created an association with podcast one. 1496 01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,800 My amazing team includes Jen Harbinger. 1497 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,700 Jason Anderson Robert Fogerty, Ian, Baird Milly, Ocampo, Josh, 1498 01:07:41,700 --> 01:07:44,700 Ballard, and Gabe. Mizrahi remember, we Rise by 1499 01:07:44,700 --> 01:07:46,700 lifting others. The fee for the show is that you 1500 01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:48,700 share it with friends. When you find something useful 1501 01:07:48,700 --> 01:07:51,400 or interesting, please do share the show with people interested 1502 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,300 in global Affairs, strategy military folks. 1503 01:07:54,300 --> 01:07:56,400 I think they'll dig it. It hopefully, you find something 1504 01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,700 great in every episode of this show so please do share the show 1505 01:07:59,700 --> 01:08:02,700 with those you care about. In the meantime do your best to 1506 01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:06,000 apply what you hear on this show so you can live what you listen 1507 01:08:06,100 --> 01:08:09,200 and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in 1508 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,200 part by Turbo Tax. 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