You're going to want from us, is the the sound file.
Let's talk a little bit for background on this thing because
I really want this to be rich and I know you too.
Well up into one CA this is Jack today.
We have bread fought know, I'm a retired army colonel, I was
commander of the 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division, 1995 97,
Greg is guest hosting today and Greg who you going to be talking
to today with Brigadier General retired paddle, Neil, we're
going to talk about civil Affairs, operations, and
operations, generally in the early entry phase of operation
joint Endeavor, LC 38 brand.com, the Civil Affairs Lifestyle,
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Joe Neal was the atcs to the 1st Armored Division, as well as the
commander for the handout part of the footprint of the first
time of vision, which included the Tactical headquarters and
that meant, 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division, and the
aviation gate, without further Ado, General O'Neill with you
briefly introduce yourself. Yeah thanks.
Greg background is, I was assigned to the 1st Armored
Division about four months before we actually launched into
Bosnia and Herzegovina as a result date and cord.
So this was a unique operation that actually in the early
stages helped us validate our Decades of training and such
things as River Crossing and operations, extended operations
for heavy forces. So this was kind of in our
wheelhouse. But it was extremely unique in
that we were going in in the dead of winter and as it turned
out, ran into 100 year flood. Most of the divisions chain of
command turned over that summer. I took him in a June.
The devotee can enter turned over later that month second
Brigade turned over in June or July.
So that by the end of the summer you had a whole new command
group and we went in to Bosnia lesson, six months later.
So the first question I'd like to pose to your pad.
How was civil Affairs, support organized during the crossing of
the Sava River and for those of you who are listening to this
crossing the Sava River was a major Tactical Operation, but it
was a task, it's not the mission.
A mission was get into Bosnia. So this is a task that had to
proceed the rest of it in general O'Neill.
In this case was acting as a Crossing Force Commander where
as I was the day Commander, The Crossing area commander.
So he superintended that Al operation.
So, normally in an operation like this, you're in the context
of a larger military operation disk, this was crossing the Sava
River grid point out, the task was to introduce Force.
There was no force on the other side of the river.
Save some Are all delivered units that we flew into Tuzla,
otherwise we were to, this was the soda straw, that was going
to bring force in. So there we were banks of the
river winter snowing and the river goes up to a flood stage
challenge here, which centers on civil Affairs.
Is, how do you understand the local environment?
As we established at the rear on the river, we created a coming
information center and actually it's a core of that turned out
to be to see a this is an issue of terrain I can look at the
physical terrain. Fine, what is human train with?
Like was a political terrain. Look like what's the economic
train look? Like, that's what I don't have.
And while there are plenty of people around to help with
crossing the river engineers and All sorts of other people.
There is no one to help me. See the terrain, except for Ness
to see a team. Some other smaller organizations
that can help. So that's, that's the sum total
of it. This is all pretty well
documented. By the way, in several different
references. I have initial Impressions
report, operation joint, Endeavor, September 96, call,
and several other reports that was it neatly talk to Yay.
One of which is called Mission, TS is website and it it's a
description of CIA operations in particular, in Boston.
So, I commend that to the point. You made about understand the
human terrain, it is worth highlighting, because, you know,
the Army experiment with human terrain teams in Afghanistan and
Iraq found some utility in it, but the system wasn't
particularly well-managed. So, one of the things, maybe the
Civil Affairs committee could look at the future is, how do we
increase our Capacity to assess human terrain.
So the second question I wanted to post today is at what point
were you able to establish a civil military operations
center? Where was it located?
And what area did it service? Well, see Mark which would you
we wouldn't recognize today because they've grown in terms
of involvement and complexity and organization but then it was
established in the rear in a steel plant actually north of
the summer River. Now So tentative team, six
people in it, but they were, they were what I had and they
were very active and they reinforce my view of the use of
the USA are in helping these organizations.
So, as we cross the river, who should we run into, but the
British SAS surprise and then we begin to introduce force and
security forward as we did that. And first brigade began to
occupy the post of Enoch. Carter, we spread out RCA
resources to begin to understand the town's and infrastructure,
and the political environment, and the economics.
What was left of the country in that region, follow-up.
Question the point you made about SAS has an important one.
Because both you, and I assumed that we would fall in, on
Special Operations forces, SF to be precise, who would be in the
area that would provide some of the assessment of what was going
on humans. The other and political terrain.
Instead we found the SAS, I thought those those folks were
brilliant and I was disappointed that we didn't get the SF forces
on the ground, so leg, it's not a problem for CA.
But if going forward, one of the things we got to make sure as we
deploy, our special forces, civil Affairs in the rest of us,
all arrived in a way that makes sense.
The thing that you mentioned about the Civil military
operation centers, it was small probably inadequately band at
that point and no place to set up anything.
I think you had to have, you know, you and I were in an
unheated, bombed-out hotel to start with.
We're do you, how do you get into a building?
How do you get in a command post or see mock established without
finding access to space? Well, yeah, I mean this is a
recurring problem. The best you can do early on is
to find a single structure and you have a chair in there,
literally a chair in there, for each of the functions that you
need to have directly at your, don't they then?
To Temporary structure outside. So it's a wheel and spoke kind
of arrangement. We won't get these people
involved. In setting up structure you want
to have a separate organization that's out there.
Setting up the new better facility, not these people
because these people are on 12-hour shifts and they are
running hard great point and for those who are listening in the
early stages of an operation like this that the in a place
where the destruction so complete, the only thing I could
think gov that look like Bosnia. When we first went in our
pictures of World War, Two Villages Villages destroyed in
World War Two and a fighting in Normandy later on a journey.
Literally, the first joint military commission meeting the
1st. Armored Division held was held
in a restaurant that had no roof.
And therefore, no heat No Light, No, nothing to transition to the
relationship of civil Affairs. And other means that we have in
the US Army, was there a point in your mind were civil Affairs
and what we? Now, think of, as information
operations overlapped, and what if any help that And with that,
I think this is a time where you can talk about psyops as we
called it then and public affairs support, you know,
that's that's a, that's an interesting idea.
You can't think of civil Affairs in a stove pot, you have to
think about it, in terms of the areas that it influences and
what other areas those overlap information operations is
obviously a Capstone process to involve psyops.
See a Contracting of all places. Your S 2 and And what our
internal resources, they have you met, he lent, all that kind
of stuff, but you've got to build that whole picture.
And I found that one of the wanting things in this operation
is there was no technique or technology that built that
Mosaic for you. That could give you a
description of what you look like and what information
organizations were out there and what they were saying, and you
were never quite prepared for that.
Pio actually plays a role in that whole operation.
Obviously I mean they would call that their bailiwick but it's
not it's a team effort. And so creating this team of
organizations that are interested in Information
Management, they contribute to Information Management are
critical early and create them early and often that is a that
is a fantastic observation here. And I think the thing that from
a brigade commanders perspective that was most problematic is
that seventh army training center did a brilliant job of
training Hang us and the transition from combat
operations to post combat operations, are transition to un
support operations. We did that in each two-week,
task force rotation. We did have human intelligence
and Counter Intelligence training support and we did have
some supervision supervised training support in negotiation,
techniques in the rest of it. We had no public affairs
support. We had no civil Affairs, support
and the training. We did in the division and Corps
train UPS as you'll recall was pretty thin in that as well.
Would you not agree that it would be absolutely essential in
training large, formations Brigade, and up at least to
include civil Affairs, miso or psyops or whatever.
We're going to call it now, as well as the whole information.
Operation Spectrum. I think that she a community is
going to have to step up here. Here's the backdrop to this.
There was no see a play in any of the work up operations.
We had the first encounter is CA, is there in a Humvee?
They're gonna cross the river and they're trying to get
information Force anything they did anyway, and user was melt
all the user reports. 50 quarter reports.
All reports do not mention see a period, so that That said I
think the CIA is going to have to step up and create the
dynamic that causes people like me to have to act and I keep do
that they're going to have to do it and they're going to have to
be a part of the workup of all the operations that are involved
in this dimension. So simply put, we need to train
as we intend to operate exactly in a lot harder than we do now.
The next thing I want to talk about is as a Crossing Force
Commander. You had to lead the see a effort
in the beginning. You had the lead with the
civilian communities with the assessment to a large extent
with Contracting. The kind of things we had to
have all of those. When do you, when do you believe
in time and space, did we make the transition from you running
the shows across the Force, Commander to me, picking up part
of the problem? As the crossing area commander
is, I began across forces. Yeah.
Well, we were crossing in your bio so you know, we were We
became visitors pretty quickly. There's not a date per se, this
is an Echelon with process and we wrestle awning to a coat,
factory and lukavac. I think that's a great way to
put it and one of the things that would remind those who are
listening in an early entry operation, let me just say a
couple things about the timeline.
I flew with six on these and 11 people in a C-17 on the 16th of
December and was down on the side of a river on the 19th or
20th. At O'Neal and others float in
behind us. We built the capacity on the far
side of the river, finally were able to cross the River on the
30th of December. I spent my first night in Bosnia
New Year's Eve and within a week or so, General O'Neill had moved
South because now, the crossing was, we had the MP Brigade in
the area, 130th Brigade, The onus of Crossing, even though
still rested on General O'Neill, shoulders had now passed to the
supporting units and we're doing the reception.
Beijing on removing integration of forces as they came across.
So, from my perspective Pat, the transition was easily done
because we had a relationship. We understood, you know, who was
who, and what had to be done and the difference in our roles, but
at the same time, I think we understood how those roles
converged. So, the message to our civil
Affairs friends is work with the operators and attempt to
lubricate. We're possibly the interspecies
of connection and division because when we broke Oh, that
out. I stood up to see Mock and that
was very late, January, early days, in February, to be precise
because it took that long to get a reserve civil Affairs units
into us. So then support for things like
acquisition in the rest of it. So this is a handoff in, you're
right. It's not a daytime group in
civil Affairs, your success depends on getting the right
information to the right, people at the right time.
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Under what conditions you were able to shift.
The focus from Crossing to sustaining operations, for the
long run that actually occurred in February.
There's a, there's a resilience you have to build into this
single Bridge. The old bridge was blown up that
there was no hope and never repairing it.
So this is just temporary salt float, Bridge designed for
temporary operations. With now, becoming very
permanent. As a matter of fact, we moved up
River, just try to find some other Crossing areas that we
could install. All Temporary bridging in more
permanent, bridging in, to do that.
So, I remained on the river, certainly in my heart for a lot
of time because that is the crunch point.
I mean, you have to have to be able to maintain that link or
you don't get any supplies our Logistics into the skeeter.
And we're building base camps Bombs all over the place and
that is dependent on that River. Crossings.
Oh, it has to be sustained. So I stayed a tomb to the River
Crossing area will into march to make sure it was resilient and
had all the support needed. Well, you live, you lived on the
other stuff on the north side of the river till February sometime
right. Yeah, that's what I remember.
The other thing that both of us involved were involved with and
it's not necessarily pertinent strictly.
A civil Affairs was managed in the main Supply Route.
You're right, we only had the bridge which meant that MSR
Arizona. The main Supply Route Arizona.
We had to maintain that, make sure it was open and that meant
coordinating. With the serbs and croats and
bosniaks. We periodically wanted to put
checkpoints on there, which obviously we weren't going to
let them do. The next question I have for you
is in what way, if any did this transition regular Army's civil
Affairs, that was there at the outset to reserve civil Affairs,
assume in the mission from the early entry that have been
provided by the regular army forces.
And you mentioned, where you located to seem odd.
But I'd like you to talk about how that transition worked and
how the division C mock operated.
Well, First of all, as I mentioned previously, the USA
are caus be extremely professional.
They were actually much more tuned to the issues.
We had in their, active can clone of Brethren, they weren't
well equipped, they lacked Vehicles, they like to GPS.
They like to do much other stuff and we had, we had a
manufacturer form. So the USA are is, they came in
the theater, didn't particularly have a good transition plan.
You'll remember Burr in that. As a result of this whole
operation, we came up with concept of the right seat.
Bride, that was not a part of the Lexicon before this.
And we suddenly found out that as units begin to transition and
change out. We needed a very vindictive
architecture for how that was done.
Ergo the birth of the right, she tried and we didn't call it that
but that's what an Essence, it was early on.
So I found a transition a little wanting, but But it powered up
pretty quick again, back to a point.
Civil Affairs has built relationships with these Town,
leaders, mayor's and councilman and all these other kinds of
people. And now, as we've seen in Iraq
and Afghanistan are for sales, they've got a transition that
and that was this particular operation.
We were in a primitive stages understanding.
How to do that. It's not like you drive downtown
and say mr. Mayor, I'm Pat O'Neill and I'm
your new ca advisor. I think that's a great point.
I want to double down on the point.
You made about civil Affairs and and soldiers, generally being
more responsive to the are peculiar needs and the posavina
and in Northeast Asia, whereas the regular army guys, with no
criticism intended were focused on larger broader issues you
know Bosnia why I was interested in brcko and you were interested
in broader area than me but still narrower than what they
were accustomed deal with. I also appreciated the fact that
in dealing with Police officers and police organizations that
were very big problem for us. I would have a County Sheriff
from a large county, in the United States, who have to be a
reserve major, and he would run my negotiations with the police
chief's, local police Chiefs to teach them that in Europe, you
don't beat motorists who happen to be of a different ethnic
group. The last question I have is that
this whole of government sounds good, when you say it, but civil
Affairs has it to me, part of the way that you make that work.
Can you address that sir? I'm Not So Into, You know, the
u.s. being able to carry our whole of government with us to
these regions. We're not hauling good at it.
I have to say that is a powerful Insight because holy government
is a is a buzzword without anything to it until you find a
way to make it work. And we found I believe that the
division and even brigades and battalions Were the ones that
did such coordination, as we come to call whole government?
Well, why is that partly? It's because we have the
resources equipment, were the ones that could put up a tent.
If it needs to be, we can put Power Generation and there are a
number of things we could do and bring to the table.
But I think one of the key messages for our civil Affairs
folks that might be listening to.
This is hold government. Just doesn't happen and it winds
up being pretty difficult. I saw u.s. ambassadors I saw
Congress and Congressional delegations usaid.
Everybody came with questions. If you came with resources and
that requires considerable effort on the military's part,
it's not a criticism, you know, a ID isn't equipped to do early
entry operations. None of these organizations are
so a lot of it by default lights up on our head.
My closing thoughts for our friends and civil Affairs.
And if I, when I have the opportunity I pass it on to my
operator, friends is combat operations, our team sport, and
the team require civil Affairs. And then that means we need to
train together over to you. Pat got a couple of minutes,
whoo, quick points, one test for single Commander, Commanding
General made a really, really solid decision.
Very early on, in the process, Egyptians the organization that
was a GS organization And he turned it into a DS organization
and reassembled it and to their credit, the organization did
this quickly. So he dispersed CA all the way
to the Battalion level. And that was at a brilliant
decision. The second thing I would say is
the ca Community needs to continue to refine how you
present products to the many people who are consumers of your
product. That is give me Medical
training. Give me the human terrain, given
the economic terrain. Give me the infrastructure
terrain. Give me a view of terrain that I
can see. And you can relate to me as
though where the crunch points truly are thanks Pat.
I've enjoyed being a part of this and I hope it's beneficial
to the Civil Affairs units. We've done it for.
Thank you very much, sir. Thank you.
The one, see a podcast comes to you from the Civil Affairs,
Association special, thanks to retired Colonel, Greg font now
and retired, Brigadier General, Pat O'Neill for coming onto the
show. If you have a story to tell or
want to guest host, contact us at see a podcasting at
gmail.com. I will have a link to Greg and
past bios in the show notes. Additionally, I included the
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This show is for you and others in the see a community.
So please He's like and share. Thanks again, this is your host
Jack Gaines signing off. Have a great week.
He's like and share. Thanks again, this is your host
Jack Gaines signing off. Have a great week.