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Welcome to the Wynn. 
See a podcast. 

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This is your host Jack gains. 
When CA is a product of the 

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Civil Affairs Association and 
brings in people who are current

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or former military diplomats 
development officers and field 

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agents to talk about working. 
The last three feet of Foreign 

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Relations. 
Our goal is to inspire anyone 

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interested in working on ground 
with partner nations in are Oil 

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to contact the show, email us at
see a podcasting at gmail.com, 

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or look us up on the Civil 
Affairs. 

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Association website at 
www.flcfs.org. 

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I'll have both of those in the 
show notes. 

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So, how was, how was covid that 
covid grown comes from major 

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Jamie critically and 
agriculturalists from the 353 

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civil Affairs command. 
He and Captain Gustavo Ferreira 

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also from the unit and an 
agricultural Economist from the 

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USDA co-wrote, a series of 
Assessments on Taiwan and China 

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food, stocks, and peacetime and 
Supply, during conflict. 

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So, I interviewed both for a two
part series. 

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First we start with Jamie 
Curtis. 

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Talking about taiwan's, 
agriculture. 

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He also talks a little bit about
the 38 golf program and the FX 

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SP. 
And then next week, we host 

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Gustavo Ferrara on China food 
stocks. 

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We also talked a little bit 
about the USDA and civil 

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Affairs. 
AG programs that work with 

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diplomats Aid, workers field 
agents, and with the military to

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help people in partner Nations 
improve their food stocks and 

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stability in their region. 
So stay tuned. 

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I don't know. 
Have you heard much on the ones?

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He podcast shame on you so many 
people that should be dialing 

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in. 
I get these great speakers 

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coming on I mean in my defense 
I'm not on any social media 

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anymore so if it's posted there 
I wouldn't see it. 

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Yeah she throw your wooden shoes
into the machine. 

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I had been on Facebook for 10 
years and my elapsed time 

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actually Actually in the app was
over a year when I was like 

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okay, I have better things to do
with my life then be online. 

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Checking out other peoples 
pictures. 

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So yeah, do you have any 
discussions about CA doing 

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agricultural assessments 
overseas? 

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We were asked to prepare a 
briefing on what the food 

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security situation is in Taiwan.
Oh yeah, yeah. 

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Give me a little background on 
that. 

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Absolutely Taiwan. 
Literally has no more than six 

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months of food on hand. 
And so, we started to research. 

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Well, what could we do to better
prepare Taiwan and what could 

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the military do in the event of 
a conflict to resupply Taiwan? 

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And it gets very, very 
challenging very quickly. 

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Because with Taiwan just just 
over 100 miles from the Chinese 

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Mainland, you know, the density 
of ships. 

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It's and aircraft in the event 
of a naval blockade or embargo 

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is is going to prevent any US 
Naval vessel will from reaching 

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our Shores with a resupply. 
So we looked at a number of 

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different scenarios. 
Of course, the obvious ones are 

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conservation, stockpiling 
diversifying, the food chain for

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Taiwan, and identifying ways for
the average Taiwanese citizen T 

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lower on the food chain. 
Pain. 

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And also started to look at some
novel methods of production such

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as Hydroponics and aquaponics 
put together. 

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Local production of algae as a 
feedstock. 

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For fish aquaponic production 
and then the waste from the fish

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being used for hydroponic 
vegetable production, right? 

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Does an offset 100% of what the 
Taiwanese would need, but it 

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definitely puts them on a good 
path. 

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There was also some historical 
context for the Taiwanese coming

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out of covid. 
A lot of people in Taiwan did 

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not trust the food supply chains
during covid from 2020 through 

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2022. 
So they started producing 

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Hydroponics and aquaponics in 
their in their apartments and 

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they were able to decrease the 
overall demand for imported fish

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by three to five percent per 
year. 

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Or what we also were considering
was since Taiwan is quite 

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sophisticated in terms of 
automation to revamp their 

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civilian Wastewater treatments 
in a way so that algae could be 

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grown and used as a fertilizer. 
And as a feedstock for other 

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portions of their local food 
supply, it would be 

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decentralized and it would be at
scale and to allow more Time for

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the u.s. to intervene in the 
event of a conflict, which it 

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sounds like it's what you're 
trying to do is get it to where 

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they can survive off the six 
months, while shifting to an 

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internal system to build more 
food to extend that time. 

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Yes, Taiwan is quite 
interesting. 

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I mean, like most industrialized
countries amount of land 

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available for agriculture is 
decreasing. 

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It's just shy of half of a 
percent per year. 

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But what's different about 
Taiwan is in other 

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industrialized countries, where 
the farm size is drastically. 

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Increasing in Taiwan, it 
continues to decrease in size, 

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is it being lost to 
urbanization? 

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There's quite a bit of it. 
Yes. 

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Yeah. 
Unfortunately, I saw a lot of 

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that in California as well. 
I mean, they have 

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industrial-style farming, so 
they probably have x minus the 

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amount of yield that comes off 
their land, right? 

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They have not Okay, we're seeing
as also that the yield is pretty

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much flat and it's been flat 
since the 80s again, you know, 

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many of the solutions we use in 
the Western World to achieve 

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better yields. 
You would you would require 

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investments into machinery and 
Technology to deliver its scale.

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But the smaller and Parcels 
become the harder, it becomes to

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actually achieve those scale 
effects in Taiwan, you do must 

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have to do a nationalization The
farming infrastructure if they 

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were ever under embargo in order
to activate that type of scale 

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is what it sounds like you're 
saying correct. 

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It's a risk that they're so 
small and decentralized on the 

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other hand. 
It's a massive opportunity 

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because then no one particular 
field or Farm as the the 

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critical mass. 
And if it was disrupted I feel 

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the Taiwanese would still be 
able to feed themselves, right? 

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What Could be another major 
risk. 

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If there's a large-scale embargo
blocking and ports is that they 

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would also set fire to any any 
fields that were dry to destroy 

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Harvest, Right? 
Correct. 

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We also looked at what would be 
the most opportune time of the 

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year. 
It would be sometime between May

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and October in any given year 
they just planted or they're 

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getting ready to harvest. 
It's also the monsoon period. 

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So there's that. 
Yeah, which would make being at 

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Sea tough, right? 
Another issue that we raised in 

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that, the massive dependency 
Taiwan has on u.s. imported 

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grain. 
They're a very small country, 

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it's the size of Maryland and 
Rhode Island combined. 

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But yet compared to the other 
200 nations in the world, 

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they're the 16th largest 
importer of food in the world. 

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You would need something like 54
panamax size vessels a year 

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loaded, with grain to satisfy 
what they need as a feedstock, 

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for the animals on their Island.
It's a massive amount. 

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And now, if they were to reduce 
the amount of vandals and went 

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more towards a vegetarian diet, 
in the middle of an embargo that

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would extend their time. 
Though. 

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Right. 
Absolutely. 

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It would they wouldn't be happy 
about it, but it was give them. 

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I mean, because it panamax 
vessels, the largest, that's the

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largest freighter in the world, 
right? 

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That's right. 
When we say panamax vessels, I 

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mean, these are not vessels that
traditionally carry greens, 

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right? 
You're talking, you're talking 

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vessels that would carry 12,000,
20-foot, shipping containers, 

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right? 
But Taiwanese Port structure is 

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still a bit immature for AG 
Imports. 

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There's only one port in the 
north set up to receive barges 

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of grain. 
The rest, what happens is a 

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panamax size vessel or smaller 
arrives with containers, full of

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grain which have been back wild 
from the US and that's how they 

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handle it. 
So it can take in green and 

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containers but right. 
It's just the it's a volume 

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game. 
Yeah, well it's a volume game. 

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Versus someone who's also 
blockading the ports. 

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So you have to do insertion 
style supplies, right? 

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Yeah. 
So that's, that's going to that 

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would say. 
That's a tough. 

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That's a tall order. 
Yes. 

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The other aspect that we looked 
at was, how much logistic 

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infrastructure would be needed 
to strictly resupply? 

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The Taiwanese military with 
food? 

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And so we use some planning 
factors, you know, we went with 

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the fact that the average 
Taiwanese citizen is eating 1800

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calories a day. 
It's a bit lower than what we 

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consume in the US and based on 
that, if we just resupplied each

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soldier in Taiwan with one MRE 
per day, so that's about 1,400 

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calories. 
It would require 99, shipping 

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containers per day to feed their
military, So again in contested 

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Waters and airspace. 
How do you bring that in? 

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Yeah so it's definitely going to
be a challenge. 

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And I'm hopeful that they're 
planning for this sounds like 

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your first discussion on how to 
get them to mobilize local 

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farming, and dairy farms is 
probably the smartest Choice. 

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The thing is with local 
Community Gardens, is that It 

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creates variety because not 
everyone's going to try and grow

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the same thing versus a large 
farm, and that would help to 

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keep people healthy because very
much just living on corn or soy.

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You're gonna have problems with 
health, right? 

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So that does make sense as the 
first bet and plus that extra 

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variety. 
If the farm Fields got 

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assaulted, would still be able 
to sustain the population of a 

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little bit longer, correct? 
The work that we're doing today 

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is a direct culmination of some 
of the precursor work. 

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We did a couple of years ago. 
We were just starting to write 

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articles. 
In fact, our first article was 

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in April of 2020, we were 
talking about breakdowns in 

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agriculture, Supply chains, 
which would happen due to koban 

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and then lo and behold, it 
started to happen. 

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We attended our first 
conference. 

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We started to establish a 
network of academics around. 

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The country who were interested 
in solving this problem and For 

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Better or Worse, we just have a 
huge Rolodex. 

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Now of names and numbers people,
we know that we can talk to 

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about any subject matter within 
agriculture. 

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The next year 2021 is, when we 
started to support the first few

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units being deployed developing,
an AG assessment is also the 

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first year that we started to 
attend joint special ops 

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University and to do some 
training with the special ops 

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community. 
And it seems like, all of those 

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things have led us to the point 
where we are today where we're 

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starting to generate more and 
more Poll for AG related 

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services. 
And that's the same sort of 

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methodology I would endorse or 
other squads other other teams 

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other Asis with in the 38th Golf
Community you have to generate 

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the relevant content, the 
combatant commanders know what 

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00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,200
value it is that you offer. 
If you don't have that, if you 

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00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,900
can't explain it, then you're 
not at the point, to be able to 

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actually offer support because 
you will get the platform to do 

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so yeah. 
So civil Affairs has struggled 

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with filling specialty slots, 
like, FX s B's and as hard to do

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in one region. 
So do you think that it would 

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improve the odds of either 
expanding out the FX? 

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00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,700
S B's across all the cake homes 
and making it a network? 

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00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,100
Or do you think it would be 
better? 

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Building out localized K cam FX 
as bees and then keep recruiting

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to fill up all those slots. 
I'm not sure how this works. 

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And I just wanted to get your 
opinion on it. 

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My motivation has been for the 
last few years, just fill the 

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slots with qualified people. 
Any way that I can because I 

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just felt that if we didn't fill
the slots then at some point the

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units would be dissolved. 
We're closing in on about 50%. 

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00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,400
Phil what has been particularly 
challenging though is that the 

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Personnel that you get do not 
always match the slots that you 

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There are 1880s eyes. 
I can't speak for the other 3, K

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columns, but within the 353, we 
only have six Asis identified 

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within our ranks. 
Sure. 

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So, trying to get the right mix 
of personnel, it's definitely a 

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challenge at the moment we have 
a number of people that are 

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00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:25,500
inbound that while we do have 
38, golf slots. 

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00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:29,500
We don't have the right ASI. 
So I don't know what that means 

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00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:32,700
for Mo sq4. 
These Nell, or when they would 

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00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:36,300
be eligible for promotion. 
Right? 

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00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,200
Which is always another issue. 
But you're seeing growth in FX, 

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00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,700
sba's right? 
We're seeing definite growth in 

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recruitment. 
We used to only do Branch 

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transfers. 
And then two years ago, they 

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started to do direct 
appointments. 

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And starting. 
In November of last year, we 

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also have a pathway for enlisted
that are well qualified and want

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to be effects SP officers. 
It's just it. 

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You almost have to be lucky to 
build these teams or be able to 

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recruit from the civilian force 
and a Rectum. 

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Well, I will say that the the 
team is quite small, it's only 

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it's only five people, the 
vacancy right now but I don't 

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have a good answer for that. 
The problems were, we know, we 

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can make an impact, the demand 
on the team is quite high, but 

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there's there's a lot of 
missions that we just, we just 

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can't do. 
We don't have the expertise. 

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Here's a quick question. 
How do you or your team attract 

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the right people to the job? 
If we can't fill it on our team 

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and we can't feel fill it 
locally with the cake. 

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Calm. 
And I, you know, I have to say 

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most times with, I don't know 
that the problems get resolved 

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right. 
Is there any type of targeted 

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Outreach to colleges or 
professional organizations to 

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promote be in a civil Affairs? 
Officer I have seen other K 

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comes setting up the mou for 
public utilities and water. 

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So basically like somebody that 
that handles civilian water 

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infrastructure or sewerage 
systems they set up an mou with 

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the organization in Milwaukee 
called the water Council. 

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And then after that mou was 
established, they worked with 

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some local universities in 
Wisconsin, to be able to 

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identify people that could join 
different units. 

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And that was led by one officer 
particular colonel kooyenga out 

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of the 352. 
Okay? 

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Cool cool. 
And it was successful. 

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Yes, it's been very successful. 
It's just, it's always a chicken

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or the egg problem. 
You need to have the right 

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resources to get people 
interested in joining, or you 

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have to have the right people 
interested in joining and then 

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you need the right resources, 
but in both cases, you need the 

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people. 
You need the resources. 

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00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:28,500
Yeah. 
Well, I think I've used up about

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an hour and a half almost two 
hours with you no problem. 

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I mean I'm hopeful you can pull 
something out of this and I can.

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All right. 
Well, thank you very much. 

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And all right, thanks for this 
Jack. 

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Thanks again for listening to 
the one. 

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See a podcast, our show is a 
production of the Civil Affairs 

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00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,200
Association. 
If you are interested in coming 

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00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,200
on the show or guest hosting an 
episode. 

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00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,800
Email us at see a podcasting at 
gmail.com? 

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I'll have that email and the 
Civil Affairs association 

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00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,900
website in the show notes and to
all our folks in diplomacy 

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00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:09,100
development defense and 
operations working on ground to 

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build those relationships with 
partner Nations and their 

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people. 
Thank you for all you do. 

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This is your host Jack gains 
until next time have a great 

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00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:18,400
week.