1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,440 Do you want to win some money? I bet you do. 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,960 Do you care about civil affairs? Yes, I know for sure, because 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,880 you're listening to the show. Check out the call for issue 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,480 papers. The new theme is campaigning and 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,400 civil affairs. Some questions to answer include 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,880 how can CA contribute to campaigning beyond policy? 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,880 What changes can better operationalize and integrate 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,980 CA's role in campaigning? How would CA even measure 9 00:00:28,980 --> 00:00:32,100 progress in campaigning? And how would a full concept of 10 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:35,980 the CA role in campaigning apply to conflict prevention, security 11 00:00:35,980 --> 00:00:39,100 cooperation, irregular or Gray zone warfare? 12 00:00:39,540 --> 00:00:43,300 So put that thinking cap on and submit your papers by Friday 13 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:45,820 15th September. For more details, visit 14 00:00:45,820 --> 00:00:50,540 civilaffairsasocial.org. Welcome to the One CA Podcast. 15 00:00:50,540 --> 00:00:54,210 This is your host, Jack Gaines. NCA is a product of the Civil 16 00:00:54,210 --> 00:00:57,450 Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or 17 00:00:57,450 --> 00:01:00,930 former military diplomats, development officers and field 18 00:01:00,930 --> 00:01:03,970 agents to discuss their experiences on ground for the 19 00:01:03,970 --> 00:01:05,890 partner nations, people and leadership. 20 00:01:06,490 --> 00:01:09,330 Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last 21 00:01:09,330 --> 00:01:13,140 three feet of Foreign Relations. To contact the show, e-mail us 22 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:17,460 at capodcasting@gmail.com or look us up on the Civil Affairs 23 00:01:17,460 --> 00:01:22,020 Association website at www.civilaffairsassose.org. 24 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:23,740 I'll have those in the show notes. 25 00:01:24,700 --> 00:01:28,300 I go back to the people of these countries themselves. 26 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:30,220 And they can see what's happening. 27 00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:32,740 They can see how they're losing their sovereignty. 28 00:01:32,740 --> 00:01:36,140 They can see how the Chinese are moving in under the guise of the 29 00:01:36,180 --> 00:01:38,060 Belt Rd. Initiative and how they're 30 00:01:38,060 --> 00:01:41,500 basically sucking up these national resources. 31 00:01:41,860 --> 00:01:44,420 And they're giving very, very little back. 32 00:01:45,220 --> 00:01:47,500 Today we welcome Mr. John Cassara. 33 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:51,820 John started his career as a CIA covert operations officer and 34 00:01:51,820 --> 00:01:54,940 then moved to the US Treasury as a special agent, where he worked 35 00:01:54,940 --> 00:01:57,660 in counterterrorism and financial intelligence. 36 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:00,260 During that time he also detailed to the State 37 00:02:00,260 --> 00:02:02,940 Department's INL or International Narcotics and Law 38 00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:06,300 Enforcement to support counterterrorism, finance and 39 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:10,100 anti money laundering. John also worked at US Customs 40 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:13,100 on counter illicit trade and trafficking and illicit arms 41 00:02:13,100 --> 00:02:15,380 smuggling. John is currently a board member 42 00:02:15,380 --> 00:02:18,380 of Global Financial Integrity and the Coalition Against 43 00:02:18,380 --> 00:02:21,780 Illicit Economies and published the book Specified Unlawful 44 00:02:21,780 --> 00:02:24,100 Activities About China's Illicit Economy. 45 00:02:24,980 --> 00:02:27,500 I will have links to the book and his full bio in the show 46 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:30,300 notes. So with all that, please welcome 47 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:33,580 John Cassara to the show. I'm glad I finally got you on 48 00:02:33,580 --> 00:02:35,540 the air. I've read your books and and 49 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:37,580 enjoyed them, and actually have listened to some of your 50 00:02:37,580 --> 00:02:38,780 interviews. Thank you. 51 00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:43,940 We've been so focused on China as the ideological, the 52 00:02:43,940 --> 00:02:48,460 military, the economic, the commercial threat that we're 53 00:02:48,460 --> 00:02:53,260 missing what I call the criminality of the CCP. 54 00:02:53,990 --> 00:02:56,470 Right. Well, what gets me is reading 55 00:02:56,470 --> 00:03:01,630 your book makes me think the CCP run the illicit trade and 56 00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:04,710 trafficking within the country. But I'm not so sure. 57 00:03:04,710 --> 00:03:08,230 They have total control overseas because of the capital flight. 58 00:03:08,350 --> 00:03:11,670 And I wonder if they've got a tiger by the tail, because at 59 00:03:11,670 --> 00:03:15,750 some point there's so much money flying out of China that if its 60 00:03:15,750 --> 00:03:19,070 economy collapses, there's going to be nothing left but the mafia 61 00:03:19,310 --> 00:03:21,110 to take over. Yeah. 62 00:03:21,650 --> 00:03:24,890 By far and away, China leads the world in capital flight and it 63 00:03:24,890 --> 00:03:27,690 leads in so many ways and I talked about that in the book. 64 00:03:28,210 --> 00:03:33,290 The CCP and the upper cadre of China definitely benefit from 65 00:03:33,290 --> 00:03:36,130 that. Everybody that can is getting 66 00:03:36,290 --> 00:03:41,410 some capital out of China, kind of an insurance policy or 67 00:03:41,530 --> 00:03:45,410 investing in Western real estate or trying to get that second 68 00:03:45,450 --> 00:03:49,410 country passport as you intimated some of these bubbles. 69 00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:53,750 Burst, whether it be the stock market or the real estate or 70 00:03:53,750 --> 00:03:57,790 civil unrest or whatever it is, it's going to be an interesting 71 00:03:57,790 --> 00:04:01,270 situation. Sure, and it makes me wonder if 72 00:04:01,270 --> 00:04:04,200 it's going to become a fiefdom. Yeah, you know, because those 73 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,560 who have are going to own everything and then those who 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,160 have not are going to be beholden to him in a way. 75 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,360 Absolutely. I mean, a lot of people say, oh, 76 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,360 China has done so much since the CCP came to power and have a 77 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:19,839 large and growing middle class and more prosperity for their 78 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,200 people. And that's true, and they should 79 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,720 be given a lot of credit for it. But it's still power in the 80 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,120 hands of a very few. The average Chinese citizens has 81 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,240 no vote, has no say in how things are run there, and 82 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:39,360 economically it's just a very small percentage of people that 83 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,480 they control most of the wealth in that country. 84 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,000 Right. And I think who Jintao really 85 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,240 allowed a middle class to grow because they were so desperate, 86 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,000 they had fallen so far behind economically that they had this 87 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,040 massive country with a billion people doing agriculture and 88 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,180 minor production. I think that when he realized 89 00:05:01,380 --> 00:05:04,340 that they were struggling even to feed their population, I 90 00:05:04,340 --> 00:05:07,740 think that's when they really opened up markets to the US and 91 00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:11,140 the rest of the world for manufacturing and trade and it 92 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:15,340 captured their imagination. But I think that the stressors, 93 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:19,420 a middle class expecting more freedoms, and especially when 94 00:05:19,420 --> 00:05:22,020 they traveled and saw how the rest of the world lived, was 95 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:26,060 creating pressure against the CCP that at some point couldn't 96 00:05:26,060 --> 00:05:28,850 be tolerated. When she's in pain, came to 97 00:05:28,850 --> 00:05:32,650 power, he really wanted to recentralize everything back 98 00:05:32,650 --> 00:05:36,770 into a more CCP controlled environment and is driving the 99 00:05:36,770 --> 00:05:41,090 economy into way free. Actually, the financial markets 100 00:05:41,090 --> 00:05:45,050 in China are running right now. They're so controlled and all 101 00:05:45,050 --> 00:05:48,210 the regulators and oversight have been punished for doing 102 00:05:48,210 --> 00:05:52,570 anything that might counter the CCP policy that it's causing 103 00:05:52,570 --> 00:05:55,330 them to. What is how brands say? 104 00:05:56,020 --> 00:05:58,860 That their foreign policy reach and their economic reach are 105 00:05:58,860 --> 00:06:00,900 peaking. Yeah, I agree. 106 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:04,300 I mean, use the word control. And that's exactly what's going 107 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:06,460 on. I mean, the Ccp's ultimate 108 00:06:06,460 --> 00:06:09,900 objective and just about everything they do is to cement 109 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:12,500 control. And they do that in so many 110 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:15,940 different ways and they aim to hold on to power. 111 00:06:15,940 --> 00:06:18,660 And they've been very, very successful about that, right? 112 00:06:19,330 --> 00:06:24,050 Does this make the CCP more dangerous as they struggle with 113 00:06:24,050 --> 00:06:26,650 controlling an economy that is now peaking? 114 00:06:27,290 --> 00:06:29,690 Because what they're doing is they're compensating for the 115 00:06:29,690 --> 00:06:32,850 peaking regular economy with their illicit economy. 116 00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:37,130 Well, one of the things I did in my book was I focused on what I 117 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:40,610 call 12 specified unlawful activities. 118 00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:43,570 Yeah, I call it your 12 indictments on China. 119 00:06:43,850 --> 00:06:47,710 My 12 indictments of China. Including the narcotics trade 120 00:06:47,710 --> 00:06:52,270 and human trafficking and illegal timber and fishing and 121 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:56,030 wildlife trafficking and right, you know, corruption that is 122 00:06:56,030 --> 00:06:58,270 also a specified unlawful activity. 123 00:06:58,750 --> 00:07:02,630 And for those of that have not read the book, I the the numbers 124 00:07:02,630 --> 00:07:06,830 behind this is just staggering, absolutely staggering. 125 00:07:06,990 --> 00:07:11,070 And I totaled this all up using reputable sources. 126 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:14,310 You're talking about $2 trillion a year? 127 00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:19,530 $2 trillion a year in in criminality around the world 128 00:07:19,930 --> 00:07:23,530 where Chinese actors CCP is involved. 129 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:29,090 And why is this so significant is because the I MF estimate of 130 00:07:29,090 --> 00:07:34,810 about two to 5% of world GDP save $4 trillion a year. 131 00:07:35,490 --> 00:07:38,370 So if you look at the two trillion that China's 132 00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:41,010 responsible for, that's roughly half. 133 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,200 And again, it's staggering. And so much of their economy 134 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,520 depends on criminality, as you said. 135 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:55,120 And this is where CCP Inc, as I call it, is most vulnerable. 136 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:00,160 Yeah, I don't know if you heard my show on mapping out people's 137 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,920 illicit financial actions, their family's actions, and then using 138 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,240 that as negotiation for reforms in a country. 139 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,040 I did listen to some of it. OK, I don't know if it's nuts or 140 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,960 not, but that's something I've been trying to promote. 141 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,640 Yeah, yeah. Makes sense? 142 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,480 Just trying to figure out new tools to put in the arsenal. 143 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,200 Well, that's just it. I think we have to be more 144 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,080 creative. I go back to the finding after 145 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,680 911. A lot of what happened to us was 146 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,520 because of, quote, UN quote, lack of imagination. 147 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,400 This was like the 9/11 Investigative Committee. 148 00:08:30,850 --> 00:08:34,490 Lack of imagination. And we keep doing the same old 149 00:08:34,490 --> 00:08:36,570 things over and over and over again. 150 00:08:36,770 --> 00:08:40,169 And I write about that a little bit in the book, too, as far as 151 00:08:40,289 --> 00:08:43,570 you know, steps forward. Yeah, it worked in the past and 152 00:08:43,730 --> 00:08:45,850 so you can just plug it in and go right. 153 00:08:46,090 --> 00:08:49,850 And regarding, for example, money laundering, we have spent 154 00:08:49,850 --> 00:08:53,050 so much time talking about following the money, but we've 155 00:08:53,290 --> 00:08:55,490 not really done a very good job at it. 156 00:08:56,050 --> 00:08:59,770 We go after the people involved or. 157 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,000 Go after the product involved, whether that product is drugs 158 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,720 or, I don't know, stolen cars or weapons or high technology. 159 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,560 That's what we go after. But we have not emphasized the 160 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:15,280 money. And after all, our adversaries 161 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,920 are motivated primarily by money, by greed that will hurt 162 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,800 them more than anything else, money and value. 163 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,400 Right. Oh man, the casinos. 164 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,800 Now that's where you really push some money around. 165 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,400 Oh yeah. I've heard it from you and Sam 166 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,680 Cooper up in Vancouver and Calvin Krusty who just recently 167 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:37,680 did a show. He came up and talked about how 168 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,800 the flood of narcotics shipments and money laundering and the 169 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,680 casinos up in Canada really shifted their political 170 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:49,800 positions, how government is being run, the cost of living up 171 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,180 there, PRC and. Also, for some reason, Iranian 172 00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:57,300 networks are up there influencing that civil society 173 00:09:57,300 --> 00:09:59,660 to the point where it's really having challenges. 174 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:03,580 Yeah, absolutely. I wasn't aware of the Iranian 175 00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:05,860 presence there, but it doesn't surprise me. 176 00:10:06,020 --> 00:10:08,660 Yes, I think what you're referring to, they call it the 177 00:10:08,660 --> 00:10:11,060 Vancouver method of money laundering. 178 00:10:11,860 --> 00:10:16,460 And there's this interplay going on between gaming, gambling, the 179 00:10:16,460 --> 00:10:20,460 casino industry there, the purchase of real estate, drug, 180 00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:23,510 money laundering. And underground financial 181 00:10:23,510 --> 00:10:25,510 systems. And it's just, it's all 182 00:10:25,550 --> 00:10:28,750 intertwined. And the Cullen Commission which 183 00:10:28,750 --> 00:10:33,070 had the honor of testifying for in British Columbia, did a great 184 00:10:33,070 --> 00:10:35,670 job of looking at this. If anybody's interested, you can 185 00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:38,310 get online or even read a number of the statements. 186 00:10:38,590 --> 00:10:41,550 But they they tried to unravel it and it's like you said and 187 00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:44,910 it's just a huge impact. And we see that elsewhere, 188 00:10:44,910 --> 00:10:48,590 particularly in real estate, people say why is it's so 189 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:49,910 expensive? Why? 190 00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:53,630 Why can't I afford to buy a house in my neighborhood 191 00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:55,750 anymore? And a lot of this has to do with 192 00:10:55,910 --> 00:11:00,430 foreign money coming in or drug money Competing with your money 193 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:03,710 is to purchase real estate, and this is controlled by the mafia. 194 00:11:04,190 --> 00:11:05,710 Right. Matter of fact, I was just in 195 00:11:05,710 --> 00:11:09,430 New York City and some friends of friends were sitting there 196 00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:12,150 talking. And like my building, the first 197 00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:14,720 three floors are all Chinese. Well, they all must be 198 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,440 industrialists because they have these fancy cars and they have 199 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,320 these nice apartments. And I'm thinking to myself, no, 200 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,280 they're not industrialists. Their numbers are crazy, and I 201 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,240 write about that a little bit in the book. 202 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:31,120 Oh, if you go back for the last 10 years or so, it changed a 203 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,560 little bit during the COVID era. But by far and away, the Chinese 204 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:39,160 people are the biggest purchasers of US residential 205 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,400 real estate in the world, and the numbers are are 206 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,810 astronomical. And once again, I understand it, 207 00:11:47,290 --> 00:11:52,090 you're Chinese middle class and you know want to invest in, in 208 00:11:52,090 --> 00:11:55,930 say US residential real estate, whether it be in California or 209 00:11:55,930 --> 00:11:59,610 Florida or Texas or whatever it is, it's a good investment. 210 00:11:59,850 --> 00:12:02,130 Yeah. And that's why when people talk 211 00:12:02,130 --> 00:12:06,410 about competition with China and and they keep pointing towards 212 00:12:06,490 --> 00:12:10,610 the military and it's important, don't get me wrong, if we didn't 213 00:12:10,610 --> 00:12:14,590 have a military to offset. Aggressive behaviors in the Indo 214 00:12:14,590 --> 00:12:17,870 Pacific, then we would have exclusive economic zones run by 215 00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:21,390 China, but we're not focusing on the rest of the political, 216 00:12:21,390 --> 00:12:25,270 economic and information side and we got to look at it more 217 00:12:25,270 --> 00:12:27,070 holistically. Right. 218 00:12:27,710 --> 00:12:30,990 For me, when I went into writing this book, it was kind of a wake 219 00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:34,350 up call because I tried to go in with an open mind. 220 00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:38,110 I tried to educate myself and after a year or so of looking at 221 00:12:38,110 --> 00:12:40,870 all this stuff, I mean, I was took my breath away. 222 00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:44,310 But I I've never seen anything like this before. 223 00:12:44,830 --> 00:12:48,750 We're getting distracted. For example, you know, right now 224 00:12:49,070 --> 00:12:52,670 Chinese involvement with the fentanyl trade is in the news, 225 00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:57,670 understandably, justifiably so. Or we talk about Chinese 226 00:12:57,950 --> 00:13:02,150 influence and things like we're going harvesting or human 227 00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:05,790 trafficking or forced labor camps, this time of thing. 228 00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:09,950 All understandable. But what we're not doing is 229 00:13:09,950 --> 00:13:15,030 looking at the totality of it. All those 12 specified unlawful 230 00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:18,990 activities I talked about money laundering, criminal 231 00:13:18,990 --> 00:13:23,630 methodologies or Chinese centric criminal enablers. 232 00:13:23,950 --> 00:13:27,550 We're missing the big picture and we're not asking a lot of 233 00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:30,630 questions and part of that is because of their influence 234 00:13:30,630 --> 00:13:34,030 operations. You know Calvin Christie on his 235 00:13:34,390 --> 00:13:39,690 interview talked about how. Chinese benefactors are donating 236 00:13:39,690 --> 00:13:43,050 to NGOs in Canada. They're not an iron fist. 237 00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:45,410 They're just saying, look, we understand that you have 238 00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:49,570 frustrations with the PRC and the illicit trade trafficking, 239 00:13:50,050 --> 00:13:52,410 but can you just tamper it down a little bit? 240 00:13:52,410 --> 00:13:57,290 Can you just soften the language so that you're not creating an 241 00:13:57,290 --> 00:14:01,210 international incident? And just by donating and trying 242 00:14:01,210 --> 00:14:04,330 to soften the tone they're trying to vanillaize. 243 00:14:04,810 --> 00:14:08,250 The narrative if they can bring down the skepticism against 244 00:14:08,250 --> 00:14:12,930 China and then continue with the pro China narrative, then it 245 00:14:12,930 --> 00:14:15,730 doesn't look like there's any real resistance to the Chinese 246 00:14:16,010 --> 00:14:21,170 structural way of trade and commerce, and so it helps shift 247 00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:25,020 the population's attitude. Many people have said Chinese 248 00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:28,180 have a very long term perspective on things and it's 249 00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:30,980 been very, very effective for them. 250 00:14:31,220 --> 00:14:34,580 As I said, one day we're going to wake up and realize what's 251 00:14:34,580 --> 00:14:35,580 happening. Sure. 252 00:14:36,180 --> 00:14:40,220 John, you also teach because I saw that you are connected with 253 00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:43,060 the GMU track program. I am. 254 00:14:43,060 --> 00:14:45,540 I've done some really wonderful work with them. 255 00:14:45,620 --> 00:14:49,740 I'm a big admirer of the program over at George Mason University, 256 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:52,460 and I work closely with Dr. Louise Shelley. 257 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,080 If you haven't talked to her, I suggest you should. 258 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,880 She's just a world expert on issues involving transnational 259 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,280 crime. I really enjoy it and it's 260 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,280 gratifying at this tail end of my career to go out there and 261 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,760 kind of give back a little bit. Is it mostly how to spot illicit 262 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,760 trade and trafficking during their duties as an enforcement 263 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,640 officer? I talk a lot about trade based 264 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,640 money laundering and value transfer underground financial 265 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,580 systems. It depends what they want, but I 266 00:15:23,580 --> 00:15:31,340 try in my writing and in my teaching to take complicated 267 00:15:31,340 --> 00:15:35,180 topics and make it accessible for everybody, right? 268 00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:39,780 It's hard to do, and I learned so much by trying to do that. 269 00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:43,020 You kind of relearn everything again from from new eyes. 270 00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:46,340 You kind of relearn everything, and that's what I do, you know, 271 00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:49,300 It's been a lot of fun. And the reason I'm angling this 272 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:51,880 question is. I've got a lot of people who 273 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,960 work foreign policy in the field. 274 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:59,280 So field agents, military, civil affairs, defense attaches, some 275 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,640 State Department folks that work, public diplomacy, some Aid 276 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,040 and Development folks. And so I really try to focus on 277 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,960 advice that can help them do their job. 278 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,720 And I was just wanted to pick your brain to say if someone's 279 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,880 working in the field and they're working with the population, 280 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,680 what are the indicators that a field agent could use to help 281 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,210 spot? That something's not quite right 282 00:16:22,210 --> 00:16:25,650 in this area. There are many indicators for 283 00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:28,730 dirty money, but I want to change that up. 284 00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:31,290 Go ahead. If you're somebody that's going 285 00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:35,810 into a country and you're talking to officials, how to get 286 00:16:35,810 --> 00:16:39,450 them to pay attention to you, all right, I've learned this 287 00:16:39,490 --> 00:16:44,300 hard lessons over the years. For example, right after 911 we 288 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,820 went in all over the world and I was part of this because I 289 00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:49,860 worked with State INL at the time. 290 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:53,500 We delivered training all over the world dealing with threat 291 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:56,740 finance. So it was basically you're with 292 00:16:56,740 --> 00:17:00,420 us or against us. If you don't cooperate, Big 6 293 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:04,500 going to come down. I'd go into a country and I be 294 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:07,579 invited in to talk to them about money laundering. 295 00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:11,089 And they'd invite me and just so they could say, yeah, we're 296 00:17:11,089 --> 00:17:15,730 working with the US And so they'd listen to me and they'd 297 00:17:15,730 --> 00:17:18,569 say, you know, John, thank you for coming all the way out here, 298 00:17:19,089 --> 00:17:22,730 but we really don't have a problem with money laundering. 299 00:17:22,770 --> 00:17:25,290 We don't have a problem with tariff finance. 300 00:17:25,329 --> 00:17:27,970 And thank you very much, but that's OK. 301 00:17:28,610 --> 00:17:31,850 And then I changed the conversation and I said, well, 302 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:35,570 you may think you don't have a problem about money laundering, 303 00:17:35,650 --> 00:17:39,230 but. Let's look over here and talk 304 00:17:39,230 --> 00:17:43,070 about trade based money laundering and if we talk about 305 00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:46,230 trade based money laundering, let me show you how much revenue 306 00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:49,190 you are losing. Then they're very, very 307 00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:52,550 interested because every country and say I've ever worked with 308 00:17:52,550 --> 00:17:55,550 they are flying for new revenue sources. 309 00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:59,670 So if you approach it that way, then they're very receptive. 310 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,800 So you got to come in and basically say you know you're 311 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,680 missing revenue here and then that attracts them to. 312 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,960 Yeah, they'll make the reforms. They'll devote the resources, 313 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,120 etcetera, etcetera. You know, years ago I was 314 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:16,440 invited to Italy. I spent six years of my life in 315 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,840 the embassy in Rome. This was about from 1990 to 1996 316 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,160 and I headed up the first really truly international anti money 317 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,520 laundering task force. Between the US Customs Service, 318 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,880 Treasury at the time and the Italians, particularly the 319 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,960 Guardia Finanza, the the fiscal police, And we looked at Italian 320 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,960 American organized crime by being full of dirty money going 321 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,440 back and forth between Italy and the United States. 322 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,920 And I learned so much from that experience. 323 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,880 And one of the things that the Italians were telling me because 324 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,680 I kept stressing money laundering. 325 00:18:54,220 --> 00:18:57,660 And they were saying, yes, that's all true, but there's 326 00:18:57,700 --> 00:19:02,860 other types of things as well. For example, illicit tobacco in 327 00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:06,900 Italy was a big deal then, as continues to be a huge issue 328 00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:09,900 today. A lot of these are tax crimes. 329 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:14,260 So they were cooperating with us, quote, UN quote, to combat 330 00:19:14,260 --> 00:19:19,060 money laundering, but they were also looking at it to protect 331 00:19:19,340 --> 00:19:23,370 and to procure revenue. And I initially had a problem 332 00:19:23,410 --> 00:19:26,170 with that, but it's like whatever works. 333 00:19:26,770 --> 00:19:29,690 Our operation was called Operation Primo Paso. 334 00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:33,250 Primo Paso means first steps. They were taking those baby 335 00:19:33,250 --> 00:19:37,450 steps roughly 30 years ago. Now Italy has one of the best 336 00:19:37,530 --> 00:19:40,650 anti money laundering infrastructures in the world. 337 00:19:40,930 --> 00:19:44,690 They've done excellent work and however a country chooses to get 338 00:19:44,690 --> 00:19:46,410 there is fine. So. 339 00:19:46,930 --> 00:19:49,730 Anyway, I just just wanted to get some of your notions from 340 00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:54,290 the field on how people can spot or engage in these issues 341 00:19:54,290 --> 00:19:57,490 because people travel and they're working in the field 342 00:19:57,490 --> 00:20:00,970 now. Yeah, I was a covert CIA case 343 00:20:00,970 --> 00:20:03,970 officer. Yeah, I love that role. 344 00:20:03,970 --> 00:20:08,010 I love collecting intelligence, spotting, assessing, developing, 345 00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:10,770 recruiting and getting that information back to 346 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:13,010 headquarters, back to the policymakers. 347 00:20:13,390 --> 00:20:17,310 And then when I changed to law enforcement, I took a lot of 348 00:20:17,310 --> 00:20:22,070 that with me. When I go overseas, I would 349 00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:25,510 always be attuned to what was going on around me. 350 00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:31,350 I asked a lot of questions. I went in there very humbly. 351 00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:35,910 Would you please explain this underground financial system to 352 00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:37,350 me? Would you explain to me how 353 00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:40,980 whole wall would work? Would you explain to me this 354 00:20:41,020 --> 00:20:42,700 gold trade that you're involved with? 355 00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:46,340 How does that function? And I learned so many lessons 356 00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:49,820 from that. I always like to go out and talk 357 00:20:49,820 --> 00:20:53,900 to the locals and walk down those back streets and alleyways 358 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:57,580 and talk to the locals and figure out the way things are. 359 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:01,180 And it's paid a lot of dividends over the years. 360 00:21:01,620 --> 00:21:05,300 And the interesting thing is doing all that time as kind of 361 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,120 like a cultural collector. Of intelligence. 362 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:10,840 Because if you're going down alleys and you're talking to 363 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,400 locals, you're you're getting more than just the different 364 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,720 scent collections that come in. You're actually getting to know 365 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,720 the people to where you can almost write the CIA country 366 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,000 book. By doing that, you can have a 367 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,640 better sense of why people would spark into a revolt or why they 368 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,160 have frustrations or why they accept the way conditions are in 369 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,680 a country. I think that. 370 00:21:35,170 --> 00:21:40,170 That human assessment is critical in building relations. 371 00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:43,090 It is critical, and I love that term. 372 00:21:43,090 --> 00:21:46,370 Cultural collection, I've never heard that before, but that is 373 00:21:46,490 --> 00:21:48,970 absolutely correct. It is so important cultural 374 00:21:48,970 --> 00:21:50,450 collection. I'm gonna remember that. 375 00:21:50,450 --> 00:21:52,570 We should name it. That way we can be famous for 376 00:21:52,570 --> 00:21:56,410 Coulson. It's not human. 377 00:21:56,410 --> 00:21:58,810 It's Coulson. I think you're absolutely right. 378 00:21:58,930 --> 00:22:01,410 I think we've gotten away from that a little bit. 379 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:04,810 We could talk a little about Intel services and how things 380 00:22:04,810 --> 00:22:07,690 have changed so much from the old Cold War era. 381 00:22:07,850 --> 00:22:10,850 I think we saw some of that after 911. 382 00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:14,850 We were so dependent on liaison sources. 383 00:22:15,010 --> 00:22:18,490 Oh yeah, and relationships that we did not have, Our own people 384 00:22:18,490 --> 00:22:22,170 go out as much as they used to. Well, and The funny thing is, 385 00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:27,250 I've heard people discuss Iraq and the assumptions we had 386 00:22:27,370 --> 00:22:29,650 because we didn't have people on the ground we didn't have. 387 00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:35,150 Good intelligence on ground we were relying on you know 388 00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:39,150 somebody of that was considered of authoritative source right 389 00:22:39,310 --> 00:22:40,670 and the. It came out. 390 00:22:40,670 --> 00:22:43,870 They had a political bent, yeah, that that was a tremendous 391 00:22:43,870 --> 00:22:45,950 problem and we paid the price for it. 392 00:22:46,270 --> 00:22:50,950 But but just compound that for other issues around the world, 393 00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:54,710 we need to develop our own expertise, which kind of goes 394 00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:56,910 back to the China thing we talked about. 395 00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:01,560 There's just a lack of knowledge building with the China threat, 396 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,680 particularly in U.S. law enforcement. 397 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,840 We're pretty good in certain things. 398 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,400 For example, the FBI is pretty good counterintelligence or 399 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,040 pretty good countering intellectual property rights 400 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:18,200 theft, but not so good in other things and certainly not very 401 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,200 good in Chinese underground finance and money laundering 402 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,640 methodologies and this type of thing. 403 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,960 We have to do better. Well, I think we have strong IP 404 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,360 protections because our companies demand it, yeah, But 405 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,360 they don't see the corrosive effects of Chinese underground 406 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:41,120 financial structure. And so if it was more impactful, 407 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,160 I think that there would be more push. 408 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,440 I think that's a good point. The other thing I go back to 409 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,040 again, I'm circling back is once again the totality of the 410 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,400 threat. So if we just focus on counter 411 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,600 espionage or IPR, that's not going to do it. 412 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:04,680 You've got to look at the Big 12 and the enablers and the money 413 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,680 laundering methodologies and how they're all intertwined. 414 00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:11,720 You just cannot look at one thing in a vacuum because truly 415 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,640 they're intertwined. You don't understand the problem 416 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,680 unless you see the big picture. Well, and that's one thing about 417 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,300 your book is it's. Heavy on details on the 12:00. 418 00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:24,700 I'm going to call them indictments. 419 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:26,060 I just love calling them indictments. 420 00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:31,380 I apologize. The 12 indictments and the 421 00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:33,820 structures that you write about in the second-half of the book 422 00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:36,220 is terrific. Are you going to come out with 423 00:24:36,220 --> 00:24:40,020 something that talks the big picture policy summaries of or 424 00:24:40,020 --> 00:24:44,340 recommendations from this? I was fortunate enough to be 425 00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:49,020 invited to testify probably about six weeks or so ago. 426 00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:54,580 Now up a Capitol Hill, this was a hearing on House Financial 427 00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:57,060 Services, the National Security Subcommittee. 428 00:24:57,060 --> 00:25:01,140 It was on fentanyl. So I talked to the members. 429 00:25:01,140 --> 00:25:03,980 I talked to a lot of staff. I'm still talking to committees. 430 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:07,660 I went up the other day that the China Committee and I handed out 431 00:25:07,660 --> 00:25:10,700 copies of my books to all the members and this type of thing. 432 00:25:11,180 --> 00:25:14,140 So I have realistic expectations. 433 00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:16,740 It's very hard for me to get my messaging out. 434 00:25:16,780 --> 00:25:20,220 I'm I'm not a big name. I don't have a publicist, but 435 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,240 I'm willing to talk to anybody and in my own humble way, 436 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,720 reaching out and trying to get this message out that China is 437 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,040 vulnerable. And it's one of those double 438 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,600 edged swords for them because they are profiting from it and 439 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,800 they're growing from it, but it's also killing them because 440 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,400 it's taking all the capital growth out of the country. 441 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,120 Yeah, it's a weird and complex issue, and of course you deny it 442 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:46,600 all too of. Course. 443 00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:48,700 Well, of course we're cooperating with law 444 00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:50,740 enforcement. We do this, we do that and the 445 00:25:50,740 --> 00:25:53,860 other thing. But look at their actions. 446 00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:56,060 Look at the fact. Yeah, look at their intent. 447 00:25:56,580 --> 00:25:59,540 You know, you talk about Laos, you talk about Cambodia, and I 448 00:25:59,540 --> 00:26:02,780 had so many examples on my book about Africa and stuff. 449 00:26:03,060 --> 00:26:06,780 I go back to the people of these countries themselves and they 450 00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:09,740 can see what's happening. They can see how they're losing 451 00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:12,770 their sovereignty. They can see how Chinese are dig 452 00:26:12,770 --> 00:26:15,890 in under the guise of the Belt Rd. initiative and how they're 453 00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:20,490 basically sucking up these national resources and they're 454 00:26:20,490 --> 00:26:24,730 giving very, very little back. They bring in their own workers. 455 00:26:24,730 --> 00:26:27,330 And even though some of these countries have such high 456 00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:32,490 unemployment rates, I feel for the people right Some of these 457 00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:35,330 just stories, they just break your heart. 458 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:39,420 The Chinese going into places like Namibia, just raising these 459 00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:43,180 old growth trees and everything and leaving the people with 460 00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:46,300 nothing. It's just it's so sad. 461 00:26:47,260 --> 00:26:48,860 Right. That's what I'm talking about. 462 00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:52,140 We have field officers that go into these areas after 463 00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:56,900 everything's been wiped out or is in the process and trying to 464 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:00,140 figure out how to bring people out of it because after that 465 00:27:00,140 --> 00:27:04,700 they're much more willing to accept reforms in in one way. 466 00:27:05,550 --> 00:27:09,590 China's own behavior is its worst enemy because they act 467 00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:12,550 like jerks internationally, frustrates the populations 468 00:27:12,550 --> 00:27:15,150 around the world, and it gives us an opportunity then to 469 00:27:15,150 --> 00:27:19,510 rebuild those relationships that we've let kind of stall or age 470 00:27:19,750 --> 00:27:23,030 over time. I hope you're right once again. 471 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,800 I just hope we learn that lesson in the near term. 472 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,680 Getting back to the populace in these countries that are being 473 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,520 victimized by the China juggernaut, I talk a lot of in 474 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,720 the book about how China's flooding these countries with 475 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,840 corrosive capital. A lot of them are payoffs. 476 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,800 It's, it's corruption, it's bribery, etcetera, etcetera. 477 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,320 But I think the people in these countries are aware of what's 478 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,840 happening. They may not be able to 479 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,760 articulate it. They may feel powerless to stop 480 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,320 it. But eventually I think there's 481 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,640 going to be a rebellion because they're going to look around and 482 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,720 say this country, our country belongs to us, it doesn't belong 483 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,440 to China. I quote a minister in I think it 484 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,910 was Ecuador after China went in and is basically taking over the 485 00:28:14,910 --> 00:28:18,070 resources taken over the economies, just it's terrible 486 00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:21,110 what they've done there. And he basically says we've lost 487 00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:24,230 her own very sovereignty to the CCP, to China. 488 00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:27,430 So sad and I hope people wake up. 489 00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:30,790 Is it become an indirect economic colony or something? 490 00:28:30,790 --> 00:28:31,990 It is. You know what? 491 00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:35,550 Again, I had this anecdote, the book based on a true story. 492 00:28:35,550 --> 00:28:38,950 I was doing some of this mentoring in an African country, 493 00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:43,760 and I go out there and I met with the chief of the Intel 494 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,920 services and he took me around because I was talking about 495 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,280 China. And he took me by the parliament 496 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,920 building which China made. He took me by their equivalent 497 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,200 of the White House where the president lived, Chinese built 498 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,720 that. He took me by sports stadiums 499 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,280 and dams and all this other infrastructure project. 500 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,600 They built the airport. They built the road in from the 501 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,790 airport to the capital city. And beforehand our conversation, 502 00:29:10,790 --> 00:29:12,830 this country used to be a colony. 503 00:29:13,030 --> 00:29:16,990 And I said, aren't you afraid of losing your own sovereignty? 504 00:29:17,230 --> 00:29:21,350 And he says, well, you know, I've talked to the president 505 00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:23,950 about this. I've talked to the cabinet about 506 00:29:23,950 --> 00:29:27,310 this. And right now they don't care. 507 00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:30,150 They're just happy that these projects are being built. 508 00:29:31,070 --> 00:29:34,750 And I think that says a lot. Maybe this guy I was talking to 509 00:29:34,750 --> 00:29:37,870 was on the take himself. I don't know. 510 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,880 But it's visible. It's visible to anybody that 511 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,800 wants to look what's going on, but people are not looking. 512 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,200 They're not asking the questions and they're not reporting it. 513 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,680 And I think the media is is a large part to blame for that as 514 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,280 well. There's so many stories that 515 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,080 could be written, but for whatever reason they choose not 516 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,440 to all. Right. 517 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,600 Well, I've hit everything I can even imagine. 518 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,280 I've been all over the place. Well, for those that are 519 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,590 listening in, China specified Unlawful activities then the 520 00:30:10,590 --> 00:30:14,270 subtitle of CCP Inc Transnational Crime and money 521 00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:19,590 laundering available on Amazon Print version E version very 522 00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:22,030 nominally priced. Again, I wanted to get this book 523 00:30:22,030 --> 00:30:22,790 out. Right. 524 00:30:22,990 --> 00:30:24,710 And it's a good read. Appreciate that. 525 00:30:25,310 --> 00:30:27,350 My pleasure. All right with that. 526 00:30:27,470 --> 00:30:29,630 I think we're good. I appreciate your time. 527 00:30:29,710 --> 00:30:32,190 Well, thank you, Jack, and take good care. 528 00:30:33,630 --> 00:30:36,540 Thanks for listening. And thank you John Cassar for 529 00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:39,460 coming on the show. I'll have links to his bio, the 530 00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:42,140 book and other references in the show notes. 531 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:45,220 We're currently shopping for interviews, so if you're 532 00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:48,820 interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, e-mail us 533 00:30:48,820 --> 00:30:53,060 at capodcasting@gmail.com. I'll have that e-mail and the CA 534 00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:55,380 Association website in the show notes. 535 00:30:56,180 --> 00:30:59,060 I'd also like to give a shout out to LC38 brand. 536 00:30:59,540 --> 00:31:03,540 They are offering a 10% discount to when CA podcast listeners. 537 00:31:04,050 --> 00:31:09,050 Your promo code is 1 C A10. Check them out at LC38 538 00:31:09,050 --> 00:31:13,450 brand.com, LC38 brand because it's cool to like your job. 539 00:31:14,410 --> 00:31:15,570 I'll have that in the show notes. 540 00:31:16,570 --> 00:31:19,930 Also, if you get a chance, please like, subscribe and rate 541 00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:22,050 the show on your favorite podcast platform. 542 00:31:22,810 --> 00:31:26,250 And most importantly to those currently working out with the 543 00:31:26,250 --> 00:31:29,050 partner nation's people or leadership to forward US 544 00:31:29,050 --> 00:31:31,850 relations, thank you all for what you're doing. 545 00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:36,180 This is your host, Jack Caines. Stay tuned for more great 546 00:31:36,180 --> 00:31:38,740 episodes. One CA podcast.