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Look for the one, see a podcast.
This is your host Jack gains. 

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When CA is a product of the 
Civil Affairs Association and 

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brings in people who are current
or former military diplomats 

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development officers and field 
agents to discuss their 

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experiences on ground with a 
partner Nations. 

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People and Leadership our goal 
is to inspire anyone interested 

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in working the last three feet 
of foreign relations to contact 

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the show. 
Email us at see a podcasting at 

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gmail.com, or look us up on the 
Civil Affairs association 

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website. 
Right at www.fairwork.gov.au 

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torgue. 
I'll have those in the show 

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notes. 
My name is Juan quirós. 

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I'm currently an active duty 
civil Affairs officer and I 

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worked civil Affairs Force 
modernization at Fort Bragg 

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North Carolina today. 
Once he a podcast welcomes Juan 

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quirós to discuss his paper. 
The oblique approach to a 

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regular Warfare civil Affairs as
the main effort and strategic 

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competition published January. 
20 23 in the small Wars Journal 

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we brought in Today to talk 
about his article and the Civil 

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Affairs approached the 
competition. 

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We had a lot of fun recording 
this interview so I don't want 

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to waste time. 
Let's get to it one. 

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Welcome to the one. 
See a podcast. 

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So what inspired you to write 
this paper before I start all 

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that thing is expressed in the 
paper and I own this call or my 

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own, right? 
So I was a team leader in an 

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activity, civil Affairs, 
Battalion from 2019 and 2020 

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one, and in my own conception of
my career. 

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Dark. 
You can say, will coincided with

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the end of Afghanistan 
withdrawal in 2021 and the 

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beginning of the competition, 
great power competition with the

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2018 National Security strategy.
I kind of saw my own career as a

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team leader, kind of straddle, 
the beginning of competition in 

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the end of counterterrorism as 
the focus. 

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So besides the schoolhouse where
you kind of get the basic 

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Doctrine and lessons learned 
from your instructors, I just 

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never saw in my own unit. 
How do we get after she's a 

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competition and a lot of people 
say, well, you know, we're 

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kautz. 
So you go out there, you check 

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out the internal environment and
report back. 

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What you see, which if you think
about others, plenty of 

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researchers, plenty of think 
tanks, and a lot of journalists 

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who cover Chinese activities or 
just foreign activities in 

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general and that could work. 
But if you think about it a lot 

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of what PRC does is trying to 
mold the civilian environment 

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into their favor military ties 
are over. 

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I've ridden, I agree and I think
it's smart that you saw the 

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pivot and you tried to move off 
of terrorism even though 

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terrorism is still an active US 
policy. 

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And there are people dedicated 
to it. 

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Competition is going to start to
overwhelm the agencies and the 

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Departments and focusing on it. 
It sounds like you kind of try 

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to get ahead of it. 
You think about it? 

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We have a partner for that. 
You might work with repeatedly, 

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doing Jay sets, training events,
Sending some of their guys to 

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school in the US. 
But if that same person as gay 

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quality foam on a Huawei 
Network, all their country's 

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economic goods are exported to 
China and all their imports from

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China. 
Then you're really giving 

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military training to somebody 
who on other levels of social 

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economic factors. 
It's not as if you hold it to 

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China but they're dependent on 
China, right? 

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Well, how do we get after those 
avenues for influence? 

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And Coercion obvious civil 
Affairs. 

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Focus on every non military 
aspects of the environment. 

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That's what I was trying to get 
at. 

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I'm not sure about yourself 
Jack, but I know me as a junior 

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officer besides the training. 
I got for the qualification 

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course, I never really read 
Doctrine in depth for myself 

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until I got out of that tactical
time where you're always 

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training and you're always 
deploying. 

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So I thought well now that I 
have time to actually marinate 

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and read dr. 
Now how can I reinterpret this 

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be relevant to those guys who 
they don't have time to read. 

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150 pages of Doctrine. 
They can read a five-page 

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article, sure, and one I think, 
but you wrote is helpful for 

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that because you saw that gap 
between what's being taught in a

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school house and what's going on
in the ground and you applied 

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it. 
And that's so important because 

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you're the canary for policy 
change, because you're out in 

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the ground. 
You're seeing that the current 

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conflict is not terrorism. 
Its It's corruption on the 

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ground. 
It's payoffs, its economic 

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influence. 
Its everything except for the M 

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shifting conditions to where 
Nations change their orbits and 

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favor of are, you know, 
competitor? 

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Yeah, that's correct. 
And you applied it. 

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So that's great. 
Have you seen a lot of response,

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just from my active duty peers 
who reached out that? 

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Hey you know, saw the article 
thing is the great summation of 

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what we should be doing or reply
or doctor differently. 

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One of my oh I see s. 
That somebody in a different 

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unit sent out a mass email 
saying, hey you guys should read

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this, check it out, somebody's 
free looking at CA stop touring 

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for competition, he's like, oh, 
this is written by you and I was

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like how do I get stops? 
And more people who don't read 

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small Wars journal. 
And so, I figured it would be 

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good to get more awareness for 
it or and do you want to cover 

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some of the key points of the 
paper? 

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Sure, first of all, the reason 
why I chose that title, the 

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oblique approach to regular 
Warfare was because the 

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irregular warfare. 
You look at army Doctrine. 

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Says the focus of earlier 
warfare's operations are to gain

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or maintain influence over a 
relevant population through 

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political psychological economic
methods. 

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It isn't same overt military 
action or organized violence. 

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So there are ways to get after 
irregular warfare and I think 

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that's where civil Affairs can 
play. 

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Do you some good? 
We've had this before that. 

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This is actually just a cycle of
Special Operations and low 

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intensity. 
I liked that fills the gap 

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between major conflict and cold 
Wort, I guess. 

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So, and going back to the 
clausewitz's quote that 

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everybody likes to use war is 
politics. 

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By other means, you could argue 
regular Warfare is just Warfare 

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by political means. 
If you look at politics, you 

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manage human relations in 
regards to resources. 

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So, in my conception, the old, 
traditional way of warfare was 

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military action. 
Gets you to the 5 yard line and 

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then, to the fair, Has become in
trying to help get the politics 

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right at the Tactical level. 
So that these strategic level 

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objectives is reached for 
instance, in Afghanistan. 

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If there's a government in 
place, that's what civil 

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Affairs, try to help get past, 
that 5-yard, line Tour actual 

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objective. 
But in a regular Warfare, I 

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would say it's reversed instead 
of carrying the ball, the last 

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five yards, civil Affairs and 
other civil entities in the 

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interagency have to carry that 
ball. 95 out of that, huh? 

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Yard. 
We should be doing when Jordi of

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the work because nose of the 
battlefield for their political 

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economic. 
So I know in my article as a 

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subtitle strategic competition, 
a lot of organizations we would 

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be working with maybe don't 
necessarily view their 

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activities as Warfare and I 
would argue that's fair. 

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Yeah, you don't want someone 
from trade and commerce coming 

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in and talking Warfare it just 
it's wrong. 

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You want them to talk about 
trade and commerce and then how 

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we integrate To make sure we get
to the same foreign policy 

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goals. 
Yeah, the paperwork tactical 

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soldiers and leaders so they can
understand can fit into the 

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wider US Government. 
Protests civil Affairs because 

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we deploy in such small teams we
work with. 

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So many senior level interagency
people you need to have an idea 

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of the bigger picture. 
So way, I organize the paper 

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would first what would make 
civil Affairs? 

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The main effort in irregular 
warfare for competition. 

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So I try to find relevant. 
Bowls of these things happening.

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What are the tools that are 
being used corruption? 

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Economic coercion, this 
information. 

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These are areas that civil 
Affairs can take the lead in and

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so I just summarized fm3, Dash 
57 core Mission sets of civil 

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Affairs, good example. 
So Network development and 

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engagement a civil Affairs. 
Team to build a network that 

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helps counter Chinese influence.
My paper, I pointed out a 

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example of a local community in 
Kenya that worked with ngos to 

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block the construction of a 
Chinese Finance, coal plant, 

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that would have destroyed their 
ecosystem and their 

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environmental well-being and 
then it will knowledge 

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integration. 
Another process all civil 

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Affairs units do but instead of 
focusing on for our higher 

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command or adjacent units about 
some considerations, I'm talking

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about how do we form USA? 
IID ngos igos about concerns 

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that they would be better 
pursuing and which could also 

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help counter malign foreign 
influence, right? 

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And USA, it is trying to put 
their arms around this whole 

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competition thing. 
So a state, everyone's 

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struggling to figure out how to 
get on the ground and be more 

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influential against competitors.
Yeah and you can even argue that

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the division of labor because 
Department of State and usaid 

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have pretty big Footprints. 
Yeah but so there's can go to 

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more places and hopefully with 
the paper can give some ideas 

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for how to go about it. 
Sure matter of fact I've been 

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looking at updating the see a 
core tasks on anti-corruption. 

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Be it's been an interesting part
of my career for a long time and

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it fell in my lap just recently.
One of the things I've been 

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pitching is Not only oversight 
and monitoring, which is a part 

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of the, you know, see a core 
practice. 

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Now but also doing the 
interagency engagement and 

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targeting towards illicit, 
actors or oligarchs to go after 

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the things that drive that 
oligarch or that criminal actor 

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so that it drives them to 
reforms better oversight and 

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exit from their position. 
Yeah. 

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And You can argue civil Affairs 
are meant to understand and 

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leverage civilian environment, 
while also supporting. 

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And enabling governance 
countering corruption is part of

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governance function implies that
a society's resources aren't 

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being applied correctly for the 
benefit of that community. 

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So figuring out a way to operate
on that line of effort will be 

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very useful because if there's 
better governance in our 

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partners, that means that 
they're stronger and more 

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resilient against whatever 
threat. 

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Outsider internal that they may 
be facing, right? 

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And we've seen enough 
collapsing. 

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Armies in Iraq and Afghanistan 
to not want to go there anymore.

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Yeah. 
Me, ask you. 

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Are you a reserve CIA officer. 
I am. 

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I'm both a public affairs and 
civil Affairs officer. 

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Okay, awesome. 
That was going to also mention 

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in my paper, I mostly focus on 
the active component, but we can

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definitely talk about like, 
well, what is this paper mean 

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for the reserves? 
Sure. 

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Well, I was just interviewing a 
couple people from an fx SP A 

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out of Staten Island. 
They run an agriculture cell and

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they are either agricultural 
academics. 

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Or they are economists, but they
all have these heavy-hitting 

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jobs in the outside and then 
they bring those skills into the

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reserves and it's super helpful 
because USDA doesn't always want

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to send people into high-risk 
areas, but having them going 

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uniform and go out to these 
high-risk areas in order to do 

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agriculture assessments. 
Yeah, there. 

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Fine with that because it's, you
know what the roles for. 

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And that that was one of the 
things that one of the ca 

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soldiers was telling me, is the 
reason that people work in 

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agencies and join civil Affairs 
is so that they can get out 

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there into the fold a little 
more into The Fray than what 

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their agencies would allow them 
and apply those skills. 

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So that we have early 
prevention, we have early 

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inoculation to these things that
cause the grand corruption or 

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terrorism or other things that 
are, I don't know, poisonous to 

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the system in a lot of ways that
make sense it does. 

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And those kind of people could 
be the connective tissue between

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the active component and the 
interagency since they have feet

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in both worlds. 
I push so as a better crossover 

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between reserves and active 
duty. 

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So that if you needed someone 
who focused on energy or 

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agriculture, or banking, you 
could access a database It said 

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this is all of the ca forces and
oh, this guy runs a bank out of 

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Minnesota, you know? 
And you call them up and he can 

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give you all of the structures 
that you need or policies that 

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govern or oversight on banking. 
Whatever it takes, whatever 

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you're looking for. 
So I wish there was that kind of

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resource database. 
Definitely. 

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That's part of town management. 
I'm not going to get into that 

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because I'm not a human 
resources specialist but the 

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branches Is small enough to wear
something like that. 

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Could be happening informally, 
but there should be a way to 

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formalize that hole. 
So we can have a better 

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connection between the reserve 
and active component, might be 

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another paper have to write 
about how do we bridge that 

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divide between reserve and 
active little more? 

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I know we've been banging our 
heads on it for years. 

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I think we're making strides in 
that direction. 

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I think there's nothing great 
and also you know, the first 

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time you meet somebody you don't
want to just spend your time 

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asking them. 
Well what do you do? 

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Think it's definitely a little 
primer for somebody. 

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If they might not have met 
someone from oti a marine civil 

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Affairs officer, it was a great 
episode. 

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I just listened to actually a 
few days ago. 

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I'm glad you enjoyed it. 
Yeah, in regards to the article,

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the branch is so small and the 
demand is so critical embassies.

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Want some of the capability that
we have under it. 

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See, Andy's want Billy, we have 
commanders gcc's, they all want 

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this capability, I wanted to get
more CA soldiers involved, or at

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least aware of what I was 
writing. 

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So maybe they can say, well, my 
next deployment, a, you know 

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what, why can't we do that? 
Also, it's in the doctor and, 

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you know, we're also trained on 
this stuff or we should be 

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training on this stuff in our 
unit levels, right? 

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Actually, it sounds like you 
could be Consulting as People 

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are prepared to deploy so that 
they know they have these tricks

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or some type of reach back. 
Also, in my experience, having a

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command that's responsible for 
operation level effects, in a 

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region deploying for only six 
months and have to relearn it 

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all when then you guys come in 
seemed a little inefficient. 

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So the Strategic environment is 
changing where you don't need 

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only maneuver guys, your country
armor or SF in charge of Horse 

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or a command, you know, you can 
have a civil Affairs in our sap 

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guy in charge because they could
be better suited to orchestrate 

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this effects in campaigns. 
Sure I had some folks that were 

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working in. 
They're focused on Myanmar and 

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if and I'll trade and they're 
asking me what I could do about 

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it. 
And I started organizing talks 

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at panels and think tanks 
bringing in specialist on 

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Fentanyl and the military and 
counter-narcotics. 

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Aquatics and I started raising a
lot of awareness on what was 

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going on in in Myanmar and the 
fentanyl trade and it's helped 

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me to a lot more counter Chinese
fentanyl operations in that 

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area. 
So it's a weird world and you 

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haven't even brought up the 
other contributions to IO. 

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That's double Affairs can 
provide. 

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So obviously you know, Jo 
psyops, the hookes law on 

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messaging, but messaging is like
an air campaign. 

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If you don't have boots on the 
ground to actually make the 

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effects reality, it's like a 
better term. 

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Kind of like an annoying add on 
Google or something. 

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So, we're pushing the u.s. is 
here to help or work with us 

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because of the benefits 
complement that with a see a 

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team were see a unit on the 
ground actually doing something 

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living up to the promise of that
messaging now, I totally agree. 

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I think I've always believed 
that the Seabees and civil 

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Affairs are the best. 
Diplomats be the Navy Seabees, 

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because they just build. 
Things. 

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But civil Affairs, they're out 
there working with populations 

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and proving their economics, 
their politics. 

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Helping with their Health 
Systems bringing out doctors and

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veterinarians. 
Whenever they're available, it 

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just changes the whole 
conditions around local 

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populations and governments. 
It's a terrific deal. 

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All right, well one I appreciate
your time. 

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00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:15,599
No. 
Yeah, it sounds great. 

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Hopefully, some of that stuff 
was usable for you. 

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00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:20,099
I know. 
I'm not like the best public 

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00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:22,599
speaker so maybe do fine. 
Actually. 

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You're very clear. 
Okay. 

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00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:27,599
Maybe I'll just start doing 
rough cast that way. 

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People are like I'm gonna have a
beer and start talking on the 

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radio. 
Yeah. 

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Longtime listener first-time 
caller. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
And I got something to say. 

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Thanks for listening. 
If you get a chance, please like

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00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:46,900
And subscribe, and rate the show
on your favorite podcast 

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00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:49,700
platform. 
Also, if you're interested in 

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00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:53,200
coming on the show or hosting an
episode, email us at, see, a 

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00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,000
podcasting at gmail.com? 
I'll have the email and see a 

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00:17:57,008 --> 00:17:59,100
association website in the show 
notes. 

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And now most importantly to 
those, currently out in the 

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00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,700
field, working with a partner 
Nations, people or leadership to

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00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:08,800
forward us relations. 
Thank you all for what you're 

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00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,300
doing. 
This is Jack. 

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00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,000
Jack your host, stay tuned for 
more great episodes. 1, c a 

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00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:12,800
podcast. 
Jack your host, stay tuned for 

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00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,700
more great episodes. 1, c a 
podcast.