1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:10,040 This is a a different way to look at church and it's not it's 2 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:14,240 something it's who you are and what we're doing, not what we're 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,440 going to. And so go back to your box 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,880 checking thing and we we said this, this is a different deal. 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,840 This is an all in kind of we're going to make this get all over 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,480 us in area, every area of our lives, our marriage, raising 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,159 kids and and I just don't think at the time there was anything 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:38,120 that we had a context for that that church did that to you. 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,400 You know, the local church was again this thing that you're a 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,600 part of and you go to, but not that becomes so much a part of 11 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,640 who you are in your relationship with Jesus. 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,480 Well, we have a full studio today because we are looking 13 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:56,120 back and celebrating the 30th anniversary of Grace Church. 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,280 So I'm joined by Matt Williams, Vicki Williams, Tom Merritt and 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,519 Bill White as we're going to do a little reflecting and 16 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:06,920 storytelling and just catching up. 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:08,600 So welcome everybody. Thanks to be here. 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,240 Thanks for having us. Matt, I have heard you say many 19 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,200 times that you are not a church planter, but you did plant a 20 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,800 church. You planted this church. 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,760 So why? Why Grace Church? 22 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,400 It's a good question Mark. You know, when Vicki and I met 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,240 at Clemson, we were both immersed in Fellowship of 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,920 Christian athletes and we both came from a little different 25 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,000 backgrounds, but we were having a common experience along with a 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,360 bunch of other students of doing ministry. 27 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,080 We were seeing people come to faith. 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,680 We were college students in Bible study and they were 29 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,440 growing and, and you know, we had friends that were at, with 30 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,400 crew and Ruf and other. So it was Clemson at that time 31 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,320 was a very fertile, spiritually, very fertile place. 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,400 And so lots of really neat things were happening. 33 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,360 And I think we got a, we got a taste for ministry while we were 34 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,759 there and decided to go to seminary and didn't know what 35 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:14,160 we're going to do with that. And I didn't know if it was on 36 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,600 staff with FCA or a businessman who disciples other businessmen 37 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,640 or so I wasn't thinking much about church work, but I knew 38 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:27,080 that was a possibility. So we moved out there and we got 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,680 to see some churches that were very different than anything 40 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,840 that we had grown up seeing. We got to see some of the 41 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,120 vibrancy that we were seeing in college student ministry. 42 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,360 And we thought, oh, that could happen in little church. 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,960 And I've already overstated my observations. 44 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,520 I actually didn't even connect that many dots. 45 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,200 Vicki was really the one connecting dots. 46 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,520 And we'd be riding to church and be like, you know, our church is 47 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,440 great. And I thought, yeah, it is. 48 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,720 She's, you know, where we come from, there aren't as many 49 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,920 churches that are doing this kind of ministry. 50 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:07,280 I'm like, no, there's not. And then, you know, somebody I 51 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,240 want to start church like, like I'm a granted, I'm like, what 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,840 are we talking about? So I'll just, I'll just kick it 53 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,160 to you and you can talk about what you were thinking during 54 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,720 that time because you were making those observations in 55 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,560 more concrete ways. And I was, I was overwhelmed 56 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,200 with being there, having to go to school, learn. 57 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,640 And I think you were starting to connect dots about what what we 58 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:30,680 might want to be a part of, what we might want to do. 59 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,000 Yeah. How did you see something like 60 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,880 what you were experiencing in the Dallas Fort Worth area 61 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,560 translate to the Upstate? Because this is home for you, 62 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,320 This is where you grew up. So what kind of thoughts are you 63 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,480 having doing these? Four years of school. 64 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:52,720 Yeah, I think the idea was just we got to go there and and the 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,120 church we were most involved in, just that we were members of was 66 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:02,160 an amazing church with lots of great Bible teaching that we had 67 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,120 really not been exposed to other than a few times by that same 68 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,360 pastor through para church ministry. 69 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,480 And so it just kind of opened my eyes to even the idea of really 70 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,360 understanding the Bible and hearing teaching for the first 71 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,560 time. And then we also visited other 72 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,200 churches that were doing lots of neat things that we had just 73 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,200 never seen with at that time, small group ministries and 74 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,360 things like that, that we had just had not been exposed to. 75 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:33,480 And so it felt like they were able to do discipleship in a 76 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,360 different way than what we had seen. 77 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:40,280 And I think I was just kind of jealous for, I thought about all 78 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:44,200 of our friends that we had been in FCA with back at Clemson. 79 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,640 And I thought, I want them to have this too. 80 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,440 I mean, it really was this kind of, as simple as that idea is, I 81 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,240 thought there's a lot of people that just haven't been exposed 82 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,720 because it's, it's not the same area of the USI mean. 83 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,480 And, and I even met a girl at the beginning of seminary, which 84 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,680 I was kind of dumbfounded by this idea. 85 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,240 We were sitting around at a Bible study one night and she 86 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:09,800 had grown up in a church like that. 87 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,520 So she was almost at that time, I was probably 20-3 ish and she 88 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,200 was like 28 and she'd never seen a church that was any different. 89 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,880 And I just couldn't, I couldn't get my mind wrapped around it. 90 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,080 And so I think it just helped build that passion in me for 91 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,360 like, this could be really neat to, you know, to expose other 92 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,840 people to this idea of growing and learning. 93 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:34,400 I just could not get enough. Every week we could not wait. 94 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,320 We drove 50 minutes to church, like close to an hour, and we 95 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,840 could not wait to get there and hear the teaching that week. 96 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:49,280 So then how, when does the idea of doing this for the two of you 97 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:51,800 coming back home and doing this, is that a real idea in your mind 98 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,440 at some point? I think it became more real. 99 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,600 We were there four years. We we looked at 2 year program 100 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,160 for him and then it kind of ended up shifting to the four 101 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,160 year program. And so during that time, that 102 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,400 last couple of years that he was in school, I think it began to 103 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,400 kind of we were talking about it more. 104 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,640 And then that last year he was actually having meetings with 105 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,840 people around some friends from seminary to kind of see if 106 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:23,480 anybody had any interest in a church like this or. 107 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,200 And just trying to, we're just putting feelers out, trying to 108 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,840 understand what you would do to, you know, start a church like 109 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:31,760 this and what it would look like. 110 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,560 Yeah, it's probably hard to for some listeners to think church 111 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,360 planting is part of the normal vocabulary. 112 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,040 But are people playing churches 30 years ago? 113 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:41,640 Yeah. She met a friend, a guy named 114 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:47,120 Judy, Judy Hayes, and we went to dinner with them and I didn't 115 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,160 know her husband yet from said we were in school together, but 116 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,640 I hadn't met him yet. And we just got talking that 117 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,040 night. Like what what does he want to 118 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:54,560 do? And he goes, I'm playing a 119 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,400 church. And I thought that's the 120 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,520 nuttiest thing I've heard. Also like I guess they do got to 121 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,320 start. I guess that is the truth. 122 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,480 I just I don't think that idea had ever really crossed my mind. 123 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,000 And he talked about it and very practical terms, you know, and 124 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,360 was very clear that that's what he wanted to do. 125 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,120 And I think that just the idea that that could happen along 126 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,160 with these experiences that Vicki and I are having where I 127 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,800 mean, if I'm just being honest, that that the church world I 128 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,240 grew up in, it was obligatory. You just went, it was something, 129 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,680 it was a box that you checked. I don't think people were 130 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,000 thinking in terms of learning and growing and being disciples 131 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,600 and passing that on. They were just thinking in terms 132 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,360 of I met a requirement this week by going to church, by being a 133 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,080 part of that one hour experience. 134 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,080 And we were experiencing something very different. 135 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,640 And it and is as she put words to it, I thought, yeah, and of 136 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,480 course I can be super reductionistic. 137 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:02,160 I'm like, how hard can it be? And so I'm up for it. 138 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,080 It doesn't take much to talk me into something because I'm like, 139 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:06,200 well, that's not going to be the hard. 140 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:07,520 So yeah, sure, we'll do it for a while. 141 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,600 Would you like to start stuff? I do like to start stuff. 142 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,320 Yeah, so I mean, what? Start church? 143 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,360 You know, I look at guys driving semis down the road and always 144 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,160 think, well, there's too many doing it to be hard. 145 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,120 I guess probably the craziest thought it was probably super 146 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:20,720 hard, but I was just dumb like that. 147 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,360 So we did. That's what we spent my last 148 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,680 year there talking to guys. I I took a class about church 149 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,240 planting and I start talking to a group of guys who were doing 150 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,600 and they just knew more than I did. 151 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,640 And they were handing me books and resources and we just began 152 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,919 exploring the idea. And, and we were thinking about 153 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:44,480 going to Atlanta. And I talked to our pastor and 154 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,160 he said, you know, I would. I said, how would you make a 155 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:48,440 decision about where to plant a church? 156 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,680 And we've already really made the decision. 157 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:51,400 We're going to Atlantic. I knew a couple of businessmen 158 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,160 there. And he said, you know, you want 159 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,160 to go probably to a college town because of the kind of teaching 160 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,360 that you're going to want to do that that environment will fit. 161 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,760 And he goes and you want to go to a town with people that you 162 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,160 care about because after 10 years and it fails, you still 163 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,480 want to feel good about what you did. 164 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,520 I was like, man, that is some encouraging part. 165 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,960 Let's start, OK, let's go. And I drive back home. 166 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,240 I thought, well, I don't really care about anybody in Atlanta. 167 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,040 I didn't mean it in a bad way. I just had it, you know, I don't 168 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,680 have. That's OK, most people live here 169 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,080 now. It's and I can see why you got 170 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,000 to get out of Atlanta that Dr. exertable and we had friends 171 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,840 like Vicki said that were graduating Clemson and coming to 172 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,960 Greenville area and should we knew some people here because 173 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,120 Vicki was from here and then the the connection with Clemson to 174 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,960 here. And I thought, well, that's 175 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,160 pretty good advice and that let's do that. 176 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,840 Let's try to go to Greenville and do this and then we'll just 177 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,480 and I really did have like 2 years in my head, maybe maybe 178 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,120 three years, because it was not something that I could foresee. 179 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,360 The idea of having to stand in front of people and teach was a 180 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,120 real daunting idea and made me real nervous. 181 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,920 And as it turns out, it still does that to me. 182 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,360 I like to teach and I like to explain things to people. 183 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,840 They get tired of it, but I like to do it in private. 184 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,080 I having to stand in front of a bunch of people and explain 185 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,680 stuff has been more challenging. So I wasn't really thinking I 186 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:22,960 want to be a pastor long term. And so all that had to just kind 187 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,680 of frog in the kettle kind of thing had to come slowly over 188 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:27,240 time. So it took me a little while to 189 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,840 get used to that idea. And so, Vicki, when you talked 190 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,360 about this emphasis on discipleship, what were some 191 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,280 some of the specific pieces like around the teaching? 192 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,440 But what kind of teaching and how is that incorporated into 193 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:39,520 worship? Like what were some of those 194 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,320 things that you were like? We're going to bring this back 195 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,320 into a church setting. Yeah. 196 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,560 I think it was like obviously teaching expositional teaching 197 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,520 kind of from the pulpit area from teaching on Sunday morning 198 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,880 just. Just try to go verse by verse. 199 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,000 Verse by verse, learning a hopefully kind of learning to 200 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,160 grasp a whole book of the Bible at the time and also seeing how 201 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,480 it connects to other parts of Scripture that I had just never, 202 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,680 I just never seen the Bible. Yeah, I've seen in a lot of 203 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:13,240 churches. And so I heard, you know, 204 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,720 different passages taught well and fine, but all separate and 205 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,360 not something that was like, oh, this is God's story, you know. 206 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:28,000 And so I really, I think, and then the idea of connecting what 207 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,640 we called contemporary worship, you know, which is kind of 208 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,240 outdated now, but 30 years ago it was, it was the buzzword, I 209 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,840 guess. So it's just bringing that the 210 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,520 idea of worship connecting a little bit to what you've heard 211 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:47,840 to to given a real kind of responsive experience there with 212 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,200 worshipping. And then also just the idea of 213 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,680 hopefully with small groups to be able to study God's Word 214 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:57,880 together and get people actually reading their Bibles and 215 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,640 studying God's Word and not just coming to church once a week. 216 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,240 And that's kind of all they do. And if they do ministry, it was 217 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,520 like the people we knew that were involved in ministry, a lot 218 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,320 of them were all at least younger people, younger 219 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,520 generation. We're all outside the church. 220 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,720 It wasn't as much participating. And we were like, this is the 221 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,800 church's job, to be able to impact the community, the world, 222 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,000 people, you know, connecting with people. 223 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,600 Yeah, that seems to be a big idea for a lot of us in the room 224 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,520 because we had this experience at college through something 225 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,280 that was not the local church, where discipleship was 226 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:36,720 emphasized and we were really growing. 227 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,600 But then how do you put it back into this local church context 228 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,800 that for a lot of times looked ritualistic? 229 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,920 You know, you mentioned responsive, you know, and 230 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,680 connected to life, whereas a lot of times church just seemed to 231 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:54,040 be ritualistic and box checking. And so you're moving back and 232 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,360 you're going to do that. You got to start calling some 233 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,600 friends, I guess, to do that. And I think we've got about 40% 234 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,640 of the first church meeting in this room right now. 235 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:05,040 Yeah. What does that? 236 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,680 How does that look like? How do you get started? 237 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,880 Three weeks before I had Maddie, our first child, I was 37 weeks 238 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,040 and he flew back to have a meeting. 239 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,480 I talked to a guy that was here in town, we went to Clemson and 240 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,720 he was part of a singles Bible study and I made-up a flyer. 241 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,520 I mean, I'm real good with graphic communications, y'all. 242 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,280 So I made-up this amazing flyer and I sent it to him, I said. 243 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,960 Hey stick figures on it I think. That's right, I said, hand this 244 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,840 out at your singles Bible study. We're thinking about coming to 245 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,160 Greenville Planet Church and see if anybody wants to come. 246 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,760 And and I got some information to Tom and said, hey, invite 247 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,720 people. So we we met at the Shoney's on 248 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,640 White Horse Road. I flew here and we had a meeting 249 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,800 on AI. Guess it was like a Sunday night 250 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:55,960 and like 30 people came and I, it was a, it was we, we had some 251 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,600 visuals of what church could be like and I got along to it and, 252 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,040 and we got, there was a moment we got about 20 or 30 minutes 253 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:09,320 into it where I don't know, man. It just felt like this makes 254 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,760 sense. And I was explaining something 255 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,000 and it felt like we would call it now athletically, I was in 256 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,400 the flow. It just it's I was like, OK, OK, 257 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,360 what was that? There was just this moment that 258 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,880 felt like we're casting vision, leading people and people are 259 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,440 getting it. And I was like, that was 260 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,760 unbelievable. And. 261 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,480 The physicality of that moment, it's for you it. 262 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,680 Was just, it was amazing. And so then we so and I, we got 263 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,960 a great response. People are super interested, 264 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,080 3035 people. And then, you know, we come in 265 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,360 June and we start and none of those people want to do it. 266 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,160 I was like, OK, so emotion plays a role and it may not be 267 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,280 reality. OK, You thought something 268 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,960 happened that didn't happen. And Charlie Anderson came and 269 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,120 did that meeting as well. Yeah, Charlie came, he was a, he 270 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,080 helped put together all this graphic stuff and we 271 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,320 communicated some of that and he was thinking about coming and 272 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,280 helping too. So it was great. 273 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,960 And but then then you know, the the idea of being a part of 274 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,760 something new versus actually leaving your church that is part 275 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,080 of your family tradition and your spiritual, that's a very 276 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,360 different thing. Back then, people didn't just 277 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,520 jump around the I mean, you were born somewhere and you kind of 278 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,280 stayed there and that's what you did so. 279 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,880 And people were there weren't a ton of people moving into the 280 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,640 area. No, that's not me. 281 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,880 People were not moving in here. This it was a good town. 282 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,040 I mean, it was stable, but it was not exploding or anything 283 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,280 like that. So, but we, we come a couple 284 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:49,160 months later and we start meeting and people, you know, 285 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,720 this just the, the initial vibe is not, it's not energetic. 286 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,440 And so we have a dinner with Tom and Allison, which is, you know, 287 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,040 they're so hospitable and you know, we're, they're starting to 288 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,680 have kids and we've got one. And so we're there's hey, come 289 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,200 over, we'll get some dinner, gin, gins and easily. 290 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,800 And so we go. Pick Shawnie's. 291 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,320 It was done. We go, we go pick up dinner and 292 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,920 I mean, we're out and I'm like, I'm so waited. 293 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,320 So we're running an errand while we're getting the food. 294 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,040 And I'm like, Tom's just being Tom. 295 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,080 He's normally he's doing, he's doing business, he's doing his 296 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,320 stuff. And I was like, hey, man, can I 297 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,160 just, are you going to help us or not? 298 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,400 And he's like, because we're supposed to wait till dinner to 299 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,000 where we're going to talk about this, But I'm like, he, he acts 300 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,800 like that. There's not my life's not 301 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,360 hanging in the balance. He acts like this a normal day 302 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:37,440 for him. I'm over here. 303 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,240 Dying and we talked all the way over there and before we're like 304 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,680 are they going to just are they having this for dinner because 305 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,520 they're going to just like let us down easily or at this or are 306 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,600 they wet We don't know and I've. Been over going, so am I. 307 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,200 Is this a binary system that we're signing up for? 308 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,800 Am I and is A down line or is B down line? 309 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,360 I don't even know what we're doing Starting a church. 310 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,840 He has no. Do I have to sell soap? 311 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,160 What am I doing? He has no concept what we're 312 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:04,760 doing. So he goes, yeah, yeah, we're 313 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,839 good to jump in. I was like, OK, so we got that. 314 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:11,680 And then we really did start on June 4th in his living room. 315 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,440 And there was just. Five of us or so. 316 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,760 Even Charlie and Terry had not moved here yet. 317 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,079 We had Vicky's sister helping with children and we had another 318 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,400 couple from Texas that we had gotten in contact with and they 319 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,599 were, but they are not there yet. 320 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,720 And then when they jumped in and we're like, OK, there's a couple 321 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,360 from College Station or somewhere they had, they had 322 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:32,920 been familiar with the kind of church we want to do. 323 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,240 But then after like a month or whatever, he got transferred 324 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,920 back to Texas. So they did have us over for 325 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,560 dinner to tell us we're out, We're leaving. 326 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,960 So the congregation struck by like 3040% in one night, sis. 327 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,280 I mean, and we, we, and that's really how it started. 328 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,520 It was very organic, very slow, very small. 329 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,000 And that was not something there were other things like what we 330 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,960 were doing happening in Greenville, but it was there was 331 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,440 a seeker version, there was a Reformed Baptist version. 332 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,960 There were people doing that. But we none of us knew each 333 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,400 other. So it just seemed like you were 334 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,480 alone in the world and you're starting from which is true and 335 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,960 you're starting from scratch and all that's good and healthy. 336 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,720 But yeah, it started. To say it started small and slow 337 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,000 is extremely accurate. That's what happened. 338 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,000 Tom, why do you want to get involved? 339 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,560 When did you begin to see the vision for what local church 340 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,240 that focused on discipleship and had some of these key elements 341 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,120 that Vicki was talking about? When did you begin to? 342 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,480 Format. I don't want to make light of 343 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,240 that Shoney's meeting because for real, I think that was it. 344 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,080 That was a good moment for you and it really did help us 345 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,400 understand the concept of making disciples and making tour 346 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,280 followers of Jesus Christ. And that's what we want to what 347 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,640 we're still trying to do. And there were some good 348 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:58,040 churches around and I, but they were good for different reasons. 349 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,560 And I think what we knew was what we knew, except what Matt 350 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,120 and Vicki have already talked about, that there was this 351 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:09,720 element that I really met. I met Jesus in a authentic way 352 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,040 through a pair of church ministry in college, through 353 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,840 FCA, the man who poured into me, poured into Matt and some other 354 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,960 guys that I knew. And still today I have a 355 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,560 relationship with him and he's still doing ministry. 356 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,240 And So what I saw was a lifelong, not occupation, but 357 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,840 passion for people wanting to impact lives. 358 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,560 And we've had a lot of iterations of that over the 359 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,200 years of life on life and things that we've tried to communicate 360 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,920 this concept. But I think that night Allison 361 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:46,200 and I said, OK, this, this is a a different way to look at 362 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,240 church and it's not it's something it's who you are and 363 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,520 what we're doing, not what we're going to. 364 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,880 And so go back to your box checking thing and we we said 365 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,320 this, this is a different deal. This is an all in kind of we're 366 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,320 going to make this get all over us in area, every area of our 367 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,880 lives, our marriage, raising kids and. 368 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,880 And I just don't think at the time there was anything that we 369 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:16,560 had a context for that that church did that to you. 370 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,880 You know, the local church was again, this thing that you're a 371 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,080 part of and you go to but not that becomes so much a part of 372 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,080 who you are in your relationship with Jesus. 373 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,640 And again, not belittling any experiences we had had or other 374 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,400 churches where we were going, but it it smelled, felt, 375 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,800 sounded, looked different than anything we had seen. 376 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,280 And man, Vicki did a great job of explaining and I know they 377 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,400 reference Tommy Nelson and Denton Bible and and we had 378 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,400 heard him teach and were captivated and I think to MO. 379 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,040 The other thing was I started to realize the giftedness that you 380 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,960 see in the body of Christ is important for the local church 381 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,080 to thrive at its Max. And Matt's just a a gifted 382 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,160 teacher, and I always make fun of him saying he's an 383 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,920 entrepreneur, A businessman trapped in a preacher's body. 384 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:14,360 And I think that's why it was easier because I knew kind of 385 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:18,520 the mojo he had of wanting to to do something well. 386 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,520 And I was like, this would be amazing if church is the next 387 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,200 thing that we're a part of with them doing, trying to do very 388 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:25,880 well. Yeah. 389 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,840 And it's interesting when you're talking about starting something 390 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,240 being small and giftedness, you, you got to use everybody, right? 391 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:35,680 Everybody's got to be a part of that. 392 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,240 So in some ways, the idea of being in Ephesians 4, equipping 393 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,240 church from the ground up, but you didn't have another choice. 394 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,480 But it's the right choice. And that's, I mean, we said it a 395 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,880 couple times, like reason why we're talking and telling a 396 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,520 little bit this just a story is want everybody to see. 397 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:57,040 These are still the same ideas that are foundational to week in 398 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,480 week out, not just our service gatherings, but all the things 399 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,360 that are happening that make Grace Church Grace Church like 400 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,680 they really kind of form around just a few big, big ideas. 401 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,360 Can you guys talk about people on top? 402 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,040 We're going to hit a few different milestones and kind of 403 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,160 Fast forward through some life of the church moments, but I'd 404 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,240 love it if you would talk about the Johnstons and the proctors. 405 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,040 Talk a little bit about how people have really helped shape 406 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,560 make what people know of Grace Church Now possible. 407 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:36,160 Yes, I'd love to. Wendell and Martha Johnston, 408 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:44,440 they are were a couple that had kind of mentored us in Dallas. 409 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,720 As a matter of fact, Wendell Johnston at the time we lived 410 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,000 out there was my boss at the seminary. 411 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,520 He was the executive vice president at Dallas Seminary. 412 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,600 And we just got connected to them over time and would dog sit 413 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,560 for them. And they had three grown sons 414 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,120 that were all pastors all around the world. 415 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,840 Like I had never really even experienced a family like that, 416 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,560 just the way they were on mission, every moment of their 417 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:13,960 life. That's just how they live. 418 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,840 And I'm even down to Wednesday mornings at seminary. 419 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,640 He made sure everybody around was coming in for prayer time. 420 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,560 You know, he's, you know, huddling everybody up just at 421 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,920 the beginning of our Wednesday morning work day. 422 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:32,360 And so anyway, but they were just super impactful to us all 423 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:35,200 the way around from the get go of just how they live their 424 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,760 lives and what they gave their lives to. 425 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:43,240 But then when we got closer and closer to leaving Dallas and 426 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,120 knew we were going to be coming back here to start a church, 427 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,360 they ended up, and Matt might want to tell the story, but they 428 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,720 ended up supporting us financially for the first couple 429 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,760 of years. They actually had a foundation 430 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,720 that their family usually typically gave money to support 431 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,200 students, international students to come to seminary with, said 432 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,560 they had never supported a church plant before. 433 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,360 But they decided to latch on to the idea of what we were doing 434 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,520 after we had already committed to coming. 435 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,240 So we didn't know we had the support. 436 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,840 But anyway. And then ever since then, I just 437 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,680 think the biggest thing with their life, just them being 438 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,800 faithful followers and believers. 439 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,240 They have prayed for us every single day since we started 440 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,080 Christ Church. And I can't really talk about 441 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,800 them without crying. Miss Johnston passed away a 442 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,240 little over a year ago. Every time I would speak to him 443 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,160 on the phone. I pray for you every day. 444 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,600 And I just feel like a couple like that they have, even though 445 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,400 they've never been to a service, they've never attended a 446 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:58,800 service, they have so much stake and investment in the lives of 447 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,640 the people here. It's, you know, I don't know, 448 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,000 it's hard for me to get my mind around honestly. 449 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,600 So. So I love that. 450 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:11,680 Yeah, and he's 95 also. Yeah, now what kind of? 451 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,640 You know, when we would eat dinner with them, it would be 452 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,760 Vicki and Wendell are on that side and Martha and me over here 453 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,360 talking because our that's how our personalities lined up. 454 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,160 And it was a lot of fun. And Martha was straight shooter 455 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,240 and she's real direct. Wendell's the sweet 1. 456 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,440 So I would I would do work for Martha. 457 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,360 I'd clean her gutters and fix the window and fix the door and 458 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:40,960 paint and do stuff more. And she was stand out there and 459 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,160 talk to me the whole time and I would ask her questions. 460 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,160 And these are people who had given their whole lives the 461 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:50,280 ministry. They hit trains when that they 462 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,120 would go out of town. This kind of deal it is, is that 463 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,200 they go out of town. So I'd go before cell phones, 464 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,720 I'd go to their drawer with the phone where you keep your phone 465 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,400 book and all that. And I get his personal phone 466 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,760 book out and I would just look through and it was a catalog of 467 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,680 all the famous Christians in America, like evangelicals, 468 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,680 people all over the country that were presidents of seminaries, 469 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,200 Bible colleges. And you would just meet Wendell. 470 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,120 You would they call. He was on the phone with them 471 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:22,800 all the time. They're getting advice and 472 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,160 counsel from him. And I would never have known 473 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,280 that I knew, I knew a couple of his good friends just because 474 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,840 they were living in Dallas. But he and I would go walk in 475 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,520 the morning and he would ask questions about me. 476 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,200 He was never telling me about where he had just been teaching 477 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,120 and what country he had been in and who he had been working with 478 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:45,600 and who called him last night that you would all know. 479 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,720 He was just like, OK, And I'd, I'd pitch an idea and he went, 480 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,680 well, you know, here's another option. 481 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,400 And he would just always trying to temper me, 'cause I was wound 482 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,000 up about everything. And so this got, like Vicki 483 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,720 said, it's hard. There were things that we 484 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,280 learned directly from them, but most of it was just watching the 485 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,160 kind of people that they were how thoughtful and careful and 486 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,600 kind and generous. And so and just like they've 487 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,720 given their lives to ministry and they were that's what they 488 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,120 were doing until they couldn't travel. 489 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,880 They were traveling all over the world supporting missionaries, 490 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,560 encouraging them. He's right in curriculum for his 491 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,280 sons to go teach in other countries from first second 492 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,360 Timothy Titus. So it's just amazing they he. 493 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,200 Was on the Cam mission board for years and helped get the Jesus 494 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,760 film into multiple countries. Yeah, I mean. 495 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,120 They're behind the scenes on a lot of things that we saw 496 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,840 happening nationally. But when you know a a couple 497 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,800 like that, praying for you every day, financially supporting you 498 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,960 probably helps you keep going during some hard times in in the 499 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,080 early days. Another couple instrumental in 500 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,800 us all being here and being able to listen to this these stories. 501 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:55,520 Tom and Bay Proctor. Yeah. 502 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,880 So we our first five years, we don't have a building We meet at 503 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,240 in Tom's house once or twice. We meet in a restaurant. 504 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:10,680 They go broke and don't tell us. We I'm calling every hotel in 505 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,080 town and they're all saying no and I'm going to get I'm 506 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,160 temperamental. So I'm frustrated at this point 507 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,920 and I'm like, well then God, if you don't care about us and 508 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,880 you're not going to help us, I'm sales my head right. 509 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,040 I'm just going to ask the nicest, we're going to go to the 510 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,120 nicest hotel in town, which at that time was the Hyatt. 511 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,600 And I called the Hyatt. They're like, sure, we'd love to 512 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,560 have you. How many rooms you need? 513 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,760 31 big room, 2 little rooms. How much $52.50 a week? 514 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,520 It's like, OK, you win this one. God has a good point. 515 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,560 It all worked out. We did that for a year and a 516 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,320 half and then we went to the YMCA the first time and then the 517 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,320 jail man for a year and back to the YMCA and God just take care 518 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,880 of us. And little did I know I loved 519 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,160 all that. I didn't realize how much I 520 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,200 loved waking up every day and having to figure it out that 521 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,320 nothing was solved and nothing was figured out and it was all 522 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,880 physical and I just it. The saddest part is that I did 523 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,880 not realize how much I enjoyed all of that and would do that 524 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,640 part again in a heartbeat and it's so fun. 525 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,080 Well, and you rallied people well during that time. 526 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,760 I mean you still all. All three of us, seven of us, it 527 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,320 was great. We tremendous influence, we all. 528 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,480 Got in the front of that truck together, yes, that's. 529 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,320 I think the people were in the church when you went to the 530 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,680 Hyatt. The first time, so that's still 531 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,360 at the end in the summer, at the end of the summer. 532 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,560 So what are what are we taking? When we leave the. 533 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,240 Lose. What are we taking with us? 534 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,120 10 people. I mean probably 12 to 15. 535 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,360 Yeah, yeah. No Easter, Brussels downtime, 536 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,280 because everybody want to be with their parents at a real 537 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,440 church. At a real church. 538 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,840 So in other words, years we didn't do anything for Easter. 539 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,520 I wouldn't even speak. Sometimes we just do something 540 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,240 else because no one was there for the first few years. 541 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:53,920 Take a little while for that to change. 542 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,640 And I'm getting to the bar. So we so we go to the jail man 543 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,640 for year, then back to the YMCA. And it's while we're at the YMCA 544 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,600 that we have no knowledge of this. 545 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,720 There's a church on the east side of town, which I've never 546 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,040 been to the east side of town. It was a sticks as far as I'm 547 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,560 concerned. We always, always want us to be 548 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,800 downtown Greenville and we're trying to figure that out. 549 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,600 And even where my house is now, through the woods across Pelham 550 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,520 Road to where the canvas is, where Lowe's Foods, all that was 551 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,800 just horse pasture till not that long ago. 552 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,000 And but we're me setting up, tearing down all the different 553 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,000 ways, and we're growing. And then there's a gal in our 554 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,600 church who is aware of a church on the East Side, Metropolitan 555 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,400 Baptist, that has had some leadership challenges and 556 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,840 they've dwindled and lost people to other churches. 557 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,920 And they're at a place where there's two elders left and 558 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,920 they're trying to make a decision what to do with the 559 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,680 building. And they one wants to sell the 560 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:51,720 building, give it all the missions. 561 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,160 One wants to give it to a ministry here in town. 562 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,880 They came to a compromise. We'll take the building and five 563 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,240 acres, give it to a ministry in town. 564 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,400 We'll take the other 7 acres, sell it, give that money to 565 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,960 Campus Crusade, what was then called Campus Crusades, called 566 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,200 Crew International focused on China. 567 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,080 And so that was their compromise going to cut the property. 568 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,800 And so they worked through the process of cutting that. 569 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,280 So then they have the five acres and the building and they're 570 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:14,360 trying to very hard to give it to you. 571 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,560 They have a maybe 10 ministries in town. 572 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,320 They're going and visiting those ministries and, and, and 573 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,440 interviewing them. And they're pretty low key. 574 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,480 They're not, they're not trying to be proud. 575 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,040 They're just trying to find what's the be the best steward 576 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,120 that they can. And this gal in our church knows 577 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,400 some people that are connected to them and just says, hey, you 578 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,960 should consider Grace Church where I go, the young 579 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,360 congregation, they're just getting started. 580 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:37,360 They could really use the building. 581 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:38,720 And so that's how we got on the list. 582 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,360 They came and visited. They interviewed us, talk to us 583 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,240 and that that went on. They were in that process for 584 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,800 more than a year and which which is indicative of the previous 585 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,920 leadership crisis, the struggle to make decisions, right? 586 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,240 And so they were in that thing for a long time and it was hard 587 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,280 on them. And they were trying to do the 588 00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:59,600 right thing. And I think that's a hard 589 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,640 pressure for Christians sometimes when they feel like 590 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,040 there's a lot of pressure to do the right thing. 591 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,120 And they are very sincere and wonderful people, but they are 592 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,360 trying to figure all that out. And that went on for a long 593 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,120 time. And we had Thanksgiving in our 594 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,880 house and I remember putting something in the oven and 595 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,720 closing the door and standing up in by the oven thinking in a 596 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,680 very short amount of time, they, they could give us this building 597 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,880 because I had heard that he goes, we're close to making a 598 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,160 decision. We want to tell everybody. 599 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,160 And I'm ever thinking in a, in a week or so, we're probably going 600 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,120 to know and we could have a building for free if that's, if 601 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,280 I'm hearing them right, because you never believe it's too good 602 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,080 to be true. And within a week or so they 603 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,960 did, they called and said they want to give us that building. 604 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,720 And then he goes, I want to meet you over there and show it to 605 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,080 you again. So he had us all come over and 606 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,880 meet. And so he's walking me around 607 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,360 the building and, and we had this real sweet moment. 608 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,920 He made a couple jokes. He's got a dry humor. 609 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:01,720 It's kind of funny. I was like, OK, this is great. 610 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,840 We it's awesome. And we get into the we get into 611 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,360 the sanctuary worship center, what we now call the student 612 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,840 center on Belm Road. And I said, I said, no, Mr. 613 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,360 Proctor, no, what are we doing here? 614 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,160 And he said, well, I don't want you to look at it because we 615 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,200 want to give it to you, but you need to look at this and make 616 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,240 sure you want to take it. And I was like, oh, I could have 617 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,440 saved you a trip. I said, I said, no, you know, 618 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,560 we've I said us praying about it and he started laughing. 619 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,240 I said, just feel silly because I mean, I don't think I could 620 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,600 hear God say no. I said, but here is the thing 621 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,720 and this I think this was this was being being open to God 622 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,160 leading. And I just said, here's thing. 623 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,800 I said this, everything about this is an incredible blessing 624 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,960 and it's it's it's everything that we need and want. 625 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,600 I said, but it is dated culturally and generationally. 626 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,320 I said, and we would have to make changes here. 627 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,440 And I said like RIP up the carpet, the pews. 628 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,400 I said it. And I said, and I would never 629 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,360 want to say do anything that is offensive to you. 630 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:10,280 God has taken care of us this far. 631 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,239 We don't need this building to survive. 632 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,360 God will figure that out. I said, but I would not want to 633 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,040 do anything to hurt you or anybody else. 634 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,480 You'd be offended that we didn't think it was good enough for us. 635 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,360 We're making these changes and I'm he goes, we have no strings. 636 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,800 He goes, if I were going to put a string on you, I was going to 637 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,560 tie you to something. I would just ask you to fill it 638 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,239 up. Just fill it up with people. 639 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,920 Hey guys, we would love to see little kids running down these 640 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,920 hallways again. And I was like, well, I can 641 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,520 promise you we will do our. Best it still gives me 642 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,000 butterflies. Listen, you tell that because I 643 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,159 it was such a anxious waiting time and then you know, and it 644 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:53,199 and you feel little dirty because it's a physical thing, 645 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,360 but it was an important physical thing. 646 00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,640 And when he said that, he it was just like he he said, I want you 647 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,040 to wear it out. Yeah, he did. 648 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,160 He goes wear it out And and we're like, yes Sir, we promise 649 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,640 we will do that. Is there pressure that comes now 650 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,200 from having a sense of permanence you've you enjoy a 651 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,120 little bit of the chaos of problem solving and and moving 652 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,040 around. So is there some there's some 653 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,600 pressure that that comes with that? 654 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,920 Yeah. I mean, there was afterwards at 655 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,680 that point we, we are tired of setting up and tearing down and 656 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,560 we have reinvented it every way that you can by that point. 657 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,440 And I've exhausted all that. There's all these little tricks 658 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,400 and angles and dividing up, getting volunteers and paying 659 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,800 some people here that I mean, we, but we are getting to the 660 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,560 place where we are tired because setting up any, setting up 661 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,320 anything less than 250 chairs is not complicated. 662 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,720 Setting up 300 chairs and above and we were in the 350 range at 663 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:58,920 the Y. When you start setting up more 664 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,800 than 250 chairs, it's real work. And the staging and the screen 665 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,760 and the projector, and I mean it is. 666 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,120 Just and then the heat and the air we had to have, we had 667 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,240 people coming in AT2O clock in the morning. 668 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:16,440 We had guys, you know, bring in heaters, just try to get this. 669 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,560 Is that the gym at the old Y on Cleveland Strip? 670 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,720 And people were in their parkas, you know, because it's freezing 671 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,120 and they're literally freezing, but they're still, they're 672 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:26,760 setting up those heaters and it's still cold. 673 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,720 So it would have been way. Worse, but you make those 674 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,440 sacrifices when the acoustics are impeccable. 675 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,240 So bad like. Once, yeah, when I was sitting 676 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:38,000 out there with Vicki, I'd be off 1 teaching on weekend. 677 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,760 I'd be like, I can't hear anything he's saying. 678 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,120 She goes never, we can never can, but we never can hear 679 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:44,720 what's being said. I was like. 680 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,200 That's why we always go back and get the cassette and listen to 681 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,000 your assignments. Yeah, yeah. 682 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,560 So we're four, so we'll just kind of use this as a jumping 683 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,680 off point just then just kind of do some reflection because that 684 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,240 really was a a game changer. And again, you know, Tom and 685 00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:04,760 Daddy, I mean, it's, it's just it's an incredible story. 686 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,960 But we're four years into the church plant. 687 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,280 Yes, we're not. We're planted as that point 688 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,360 almost four years. Well, by the time we moved in 689 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,400 March 5th, 2000, that was our move in date. 690 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,920 We got it in fall 99, we're told we had it and then we moved in. 691 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,080 It took after renovations. March 5th, 2000 was our first 692 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,400 Sunday. And so we're closing in on five, 693 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,800 you know, because from June 4th, 1995, OK. 694 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,000 Yeah, Bill, when is it that you intersect this story? 695 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,760 Well, I was watching from a distance because Tom and I were 696 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:46,360 best friends since childhood. We met, I moved out to 697 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,680 Powdersville and I remember meeting him at Concrete 698 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,680 Elementary School. And so we have been connected 699 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,120 for a long time. And then we got closer as life 700 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,120 went on. We didn't walk with Jesus 701 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,240 together. And then I had a pretty dramatic 702 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,920 change in my life right before my senior year of high school, 703 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,840 which didn't, I mean, a lot of my friends I wasn't friends with 704 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,280 anymore, but my relationship with Tom endured that. 705 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,520 And he was supportive of that. But we weren't really walking 706 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,040 together. He wasn't walking with the Lord. 707 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,920 Then I was worried, worried about him and praying for him. 708 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:34,000 And, and so we had, so I watched his salvation conversion while 709 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,040 he was at Clemson through FCA. So I was adjacent to what was 710 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,800 Matt and Vicki and what was going on in FO Ed Ferris and the 711 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,800 ways in which a whole group of people and my wife have been 712 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,840 impacted by FCA Ed Furman in that way. 713 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:58,240 And but I was this kind of judgmental hardcore dude because 714 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:06,480 I had been like that, that smell too much like what I had been my 715 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,120 experience of that at Furman. And I was wrongly judging a lot 716 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,480 of that. So I'd gone to what became a 717 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:17,320 precursor for Ruf. And so I did this deep dive into 718 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,160 like being hardcore, you know, reform guy for a while in my 719 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,960 20s. So that's right. 720 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,200 So well, and that's what I thought because it's an 721 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,480 interesting thing because Tom and Allison were a part of this 722 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,000 big Baptist Church. And I don't feel great about 723 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,560 that because I'm judging everybody. 724 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,600 And then so, but but we were very focused on expositional 725 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,560 preaching where I came from and I was studying hard and I had 726 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,600 vision for that. And I had actually thought about 727 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,400 maybe I should plan a church one day, but I'm I'd not been a 728 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,800 starter. And so I saw what was going on 729 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,480 and I would see things that, and I would hear things from Tom and 730 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,000 Allison that they were excited about. 731 00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,760 And it didn't always hit me the right way. 732 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,120 Like I remember men's roundtable and Tom talking about Mother 733 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,920 Wayne and Father Wayne. And I was like, Oh my Lord, 734 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,960 they'd gone and some kind of psycho Babble thing. 735 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:07,720 And I remember really thinking that. 736 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:12,040 But then this, what I saw, began to saw how their life was being 737 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,600 impacted and changed. And it was real encouraging to 738 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,280 me. And I at that time I thought 739 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,280 Doctrine was the solution. And so I had to run it because 740 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,080 it getting a good doctrine of the grace of God had really 741 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,520 changed my life and it stabilized me in some ways that 742 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,240 made it much possible. So that was the lens that I had. 743 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,960 And so that had to all play out. And I was a part of some really 744 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:42,240 unhealthy churches and they were going through difficult times 745 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:46,000 that all had good doctrine, but their practice, their practice 746 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,120 was just all messed up. And I was watching what being a 747 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,840 part of this church was doing to Tom and Allison, and I was being 748 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,400 humbled through the whole process. 749 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,000 And so as I was seeing this and seeing how it all worked out, 750 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,400 there was just this moment where some of the lack of health in 751 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,040 the churches that I was in led me to just be. 752 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,400 I knew I needed to be in Greenville because of some 753 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,640 responsibilities that I felt in my family. 754 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,160 And we have moved back here from Philadelphia because of that. 755 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,200 And I just realized church is too important. 756 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,080 I just want to be a part of a healthy church. 757 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,000 And the churches that we've been in are not thriving. 758 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,520 And I was seeing what was happening at Grace Church. 759 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,920 And so I just got in a job and quit working in churches and 760 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,320 thought if God wants me to be in ministry full time, I'll be in 761 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,160 ministry full time. But I'm just find a healthy 762 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:42,120 church, raise my family. And so I went to lunch, we, 763 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,680 well, we visited because Tom was teaching on a sermon on fear of 764 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,000 man and we worshipped there. And then we left and drove to 765 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,200 another church. And I'm not saying anything 766 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,600 against that other church, but when we were leaving and driving 767 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,760 to that other church, my wife was like, why are we dropping at 768 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,520 this other church? Literally, that's what she said 769 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,080 to me. And we were getting ready to 770 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,400 join and we had a moment and I had connections with those folks 771 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,520 and they're good folks and it's still a good church and they're 772 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,680 discipling people. And, you know, and I thought 773 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,680 that's what we were supposed to do, but we were getting ready to 774 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,080 meet with those elders to join that church again on a Sunday. 775 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,280 And but we had visited Grace and Rachel said, listen, and she's 776 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,440 not confrontational. And so she, she said, listen, if 777 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,040 you tell me that God's leading us to join this church, then 778 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,560 I'm, I'm good. We'll join this church. 779 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,640 She's like, but I don't think God's leading us to join this 780 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:31,880 church. As she said, I think you're 781 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,400 doing this because you're afraid and you don't know what. 782 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:39,400 Else to do and. Golly. 783 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,000 And so I just looked at her and I said you're 100% right. 784 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,720 And we came to Grace Church the next Sunday, and Matt was 785 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:53,160 preaching on the daggone Rapture, which I don't even 786 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:54,800 believe in. Oh, that is. 787 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,200 Debatable. I don't even believe no, he was 788 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,800 preaching attack. It was amazing. 789 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:02,040 But it was so funny because I saw we he and I gone to lunch 790 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,880 one day and I told him, man, I'm just willing to reform preacher 791 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,120 guy. And you know, probably don't 792 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,120 want me in our church, but we loved what we saw in your 793 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,280 church. And you know, I don't know if 794 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,640 maybe we need to be here. And he gave me a sermon series 795 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:13,760 to list. These are you men don't even 796 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,040 like my preaching. So here, listen to the sermon 797 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,880 series the life of Moses. So I listened by half of it and 798 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,360 I was like, no, I'm great with preaching, yeah, but it wasn't 799 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:22,840 good enough for me to listen to the whole thing. 800 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:26,720 You listen to. Appreciate it. 801 00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:29,120 Listen to how to help. So you listen to the Half a life 802 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,400 of mine. So, so anyway, so we showed up 803 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,360 and it was a cool thing because we sat in the back of that 804 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,200 building that we've been talking about that was given to them. 805 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,040 We sat in the back corner. Remember where we sat and all 806 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,320 four of our little boys, me and Rachel, we sat down and I saw 807 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,640 him see me in the back of the room. 808 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,320 Do you remember this? You may not remember it. 809 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,840 You saw me and you knew you were teaching on attacks that me 810 00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,160 coming from a reform context that we may not agree on. 811 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,760 It's ironic because we just said revelation, you know? 812 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,760 And so we were both making some assumptions about where each 813 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,560 other were coming from and how that would play. 814 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,680 It was a cool moment because the way he handled the text was 815 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,320 great. And I was like, this is exactly 816 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,360 what I'm looking for. He was not overplaying his hand 817 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,280 and shoving his religious agenda. 818 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,720 He wasn't defending anything. He just teaching about and I was 819 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,800 like, Nope, that's what we need to do. 820 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:31,160 And we met Scott Nelson, he had just come on our staff and he 821 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,360 was doing, we call it assimilation. 822 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,840 Been new people, yes, which is perfect. 823 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,080 I mean he's perfect. I mean Scott could quote the 1st 824 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,840 600 people who came to our church back then. 825 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,920 He knew everybody's saying, he still knows, everybody's saying 826 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:46,360 in day when they came to our church. 827 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,320 So I remember we went and met Scott Nelson and then had a 828 00:44:52,320 --> 00:45:00,440 brief conversation with Matt and, and that was in O3. 829 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:06,040 It was like June of, I think it was June of O3. 830 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,280 We've been back in Greenville for about two years. 831 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,960 You had just been on staff. Yeah, I started June O3. 832 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,440 You'd you had just started and we had just started because I 833 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,440 remember meeting you and Ashley at a I think somebody was 834 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,040 getting baptized in your parents, fool. 835 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:22,760 We went through discovery together. 836 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,680 And so that's exactly right, no? Exactly this camping chair, 837 00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:26,800 Yeah. We did. 838 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:32,680 And so that was that was when we intersected with the church. 839 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,960 But I had been watching from a distance and it was just 840 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,480 interesting to me. And I had some friends who said 841 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,800 to me, you know, how are you going to go to that church 842 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,480 because it's not distinctively reformed? 843 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,480 And how are you going to submit the elders that you don't agree 844 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:44,560 with? Although, hey, man, I've been 845 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,680 doing church with people that I agree with on a bunch of 846 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,680 doctrine for a long time that has not gone so well. 847 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,720 So I'm going to make a different mistake and I'll do so. 848 00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:57,120 I'm going to do something different, I said, because I 849 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,880 don't care how people say what they say if they really believe 850 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,600 in the authority of Scripture. And so for me, that was a thing. 851 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:08,440 It was seeing Tom and Allison's life be changed and watching him 852 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,280 learn how to love his extended family, really. 853 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,400 And and then it was seeing how all that was being worked out. 854 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,640 And it was me seeing that maybe being right about all these 855 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,320 doctrinal things is not even the main thing, which I had been 856 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,840 moving in that area anyway, but I just didn't have anything else 857 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,200 available to me. And it was cool for me because I 858 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,800 was like, oh, here's this thing that I didn't know existed that 859 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,680 I actually I agree with this process, but I just not seen 860 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,680 anything like that. So we joined the church and I 861 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,920 was working do a business development for a commercial 862 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,000 construction company. And we had just done a new big 863 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,800 initiative on getting volunteers because the church grew a lot 864 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,640 when you got a building gave credibility. 865 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,000 So people came kind of as consumers, probably for the 866 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,160 first time as we had all these kids, we're y'all were trying to 867 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,280 get people to serve. And so there was this big 868 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:02,880 initiative. Y'all going to see some church 869 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,880 in Chicago about volunteer culture. 870 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,880 And I remember there are always announcements being made. 871 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,640 And I remember where I was sitting when y'all talked about 872 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:09,960 the need you had in children's ministry. 873 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,760 I was like, well, I'm contributing to that need. 874 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,880 So Rachel and I signed up that Sunday to serve as children's 875 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,160 ministry volunteers. And but yeah, that's that's how 876 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,640 we got started. Oh, before we go a little 877 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,640 further, we got to bring MO into the mix. 878 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,600 So I had called a pastor, a friend of mine in Dallas and 879 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,680 said, Hey, I, I need help out here. 880 00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:34,800 And he goes, man, because I got a friend that we're working in 881 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,520 the leadership center at Dallas Seminary. 882 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,320 He's got a couple guys that are just super bright, super 883 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,720 talented. I was like, well, they wouldn't 884 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:45,880 come work with me. So you got anybody else? 885 00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:49,480 You got anybody mediocre. That's right. 886 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:54,400 So I tracked all that down and got in that the the road forked 887 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,840 a couple times and they got me to Scott Mozingo and we started 888 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,760 talking I think in your third year and it's because it was a 889 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,000 18 month process. So because you still had to 890 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,720 finish school with four year program. 891 00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:10,480 And so we worked a lot and I thought MO has all this from the 892 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,680 South, really, really bright and has a Harvard discipleship and 893 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,720 just can work with anybody. He's got all these great social 894 00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:22,200 skills I don't have and wants to shepherd in care of her people. 895 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,400 But he was when I think when you came and we 28. 896 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,120 Yeah, 28 and 11 months. Yeah, and had. 897 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,720 That's right, that's what it was. 898 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,960 And he had twins. So he's going to school all day, 899 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,640 working all night at the shipping, whatever UPS wives 900 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,880 bedridden for the last while the pregnancy. 901 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,840 So it was just a tough time. But I was like, if that dude's 902 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,400 that tough, he cropped the back in Eastern North Carolina. 903 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,280 Now he's doing this. That's what we need around to 904 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:51,680 hear. It's that kind of toughness. 905 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,800 And so when he came here, everybody was like, no, how old 906 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:54,760 is he? Looks like, how old is he? 907 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:59,120 I was like, he's basically 30. Vicky's like, that's one of the 908 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:00,600 28. That's right. 909 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,800 And Vicky would be like, I don't even think he's 29. 910 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,800 I was like, no, you, you got to give me that one. 911 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,640 He's 29. He's telling me he's 20. 912 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,960 That was like, hey, I'm telling you it's not a good thing. 913 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,360 But most people, they won't listen to you until you turn 30. 914 00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:15,880 There's something about 30, he says. 915 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:21,000 So it's true. It's going to be 33. 916 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,680 I was 30. I was 37. 917 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,960 I was 30. Matt wished to be 30 for the 918 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,760 longest time after we first started when he when he was 26. 919 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,840 When we started, he just kept saying if I could get 30 people 920 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,840 actually talk to me or stay and listen to my teaching. 921 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,280 Yeah, instead of playing pick up at Ren where a guy like you 922 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:41,680 said, what are you doing now, Matt? 923 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,240 You know that you're back from seminary, he said. 924 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,320 Well, we're going to plan a church. 925 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:48,000 He goes, do we need more? Churches, it was not an 926 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:53,200 encouraging time. So yeah, no, I'm really trying 927 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,120 to lead all these groups and I, I couldn't go to our elders and 928 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,840 say I didn't feel like I got ourselves and say, hey, we, we 929 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,520 need more. We need a staff person to handle 930 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,160 small groups, among other things. 931 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,720 So we had to just start a bunch of small groups and then I could 932 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:09,640 say, see all these groups now we need someone. 933 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,680 And so the timing worked out. We were able to build some 934 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,400 groups and get them here. And then MO took those over and 935 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:19,120 tripled that number and wrote curriculum and then building 936 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,680 what doing? I don't even know how many jobs 937 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,040 you've had since been here, but it's a lot. 938 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,160 Well, people always say, how do you, how do you get a job at a 939 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:26,440 church? I was like, we just like you 940 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,480 give where you start saying, where do I want to live? 941 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,720 And you start asking, who do I know because I've been in the 942 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:33,440 church front. There's a special trick. 943 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,640 You find out what the founding pastor is doing, but he doesn't 944 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,040 want to do anymore. And you volunteer to do that. 945 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:40,520 They won't even ask you for a resume. 946 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,400 Yeah, well, it's filling the gaps, baby, Filling the gap. 947 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,720 Yeah, I was one of your. I was in one of your first 948 00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:48,080 leadership. Classes. 949 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,440 So after I've been here serving for a little while and MO had 950 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,720 this, he had put together a leadership curriculum, next 951 00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:56,280 level leaders, next level leaders. 952 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,760 I remember the binder. It's like a, it's a, it's a 953 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,240 lesson. I quote you to you keep 954 00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:02,880 everything. It was a Leslie note binder. 955 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,240 You know that's right, but. He's got all these little tabs 956 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:06,800 in it. And I remember it was Scott 957 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,400 Freeman. And I don't remember everyone 958 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,280 who was in there, but I definitely remember that Scott 959 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,680 Freeman and I were in there because we came here, You know, 960 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,600 I came here as a member when you were coming on staff. 961 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,240 And Cosmo believed you were a next level leader. 962 00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:20,080 I was the next. I thought, Matt, there may be a. 963 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:21,920 Future, right it was. Talent scattered. 964 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,280 Maybe a future. That's it for me here in your 965 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,880 downline. Hey, can I ask a quick mission, 966 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,640 something I should say before we get too much farther? 967 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,640 I just want to bring up Tom and Joey Fowler real quick as people 968 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,080 we talked about. I just feel like they joined us 969 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,280 at the Hyatt and they were super young, but they were a step 970 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,400 ahead of us like at the time, I mean, but they were in it with 971 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,680 us and I don't know, I thought Matt Mike could speak to it, but 972 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,000 Tom, it's ready yes, and I just don't want to forget that 973 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,440 because they they felt like we were if when they just kept 974 00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,920 coming back every week and they were part of what we were doing 975 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,920 and and Tom is such a biblical scholar and really helped us out 976 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,640 in so many ways with disciple and people and anyway. 977 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:09,840 Yeah, why do? Why do they connect? 978 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,520 Early on it's his future daughter-in-law is dating his 979 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:20,760 son and she prevailed upon them to come visit this church and he 980 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,480 walked in and said he's 40 ish. We're, you know, mid 20s. 981 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,080 So he's Ancient of Days. I mean. 982 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,880 He's 38 and 11 months. Yeah, that's right. 983 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,560 And he, he literally, you know, he, it doesn't take long to see 984 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,520 he, he knows the Bible. He'd been an elder up north in 985 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,160 Philly and just outside of Philly. 986 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,760 And he is. And you could just tell he had 987 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,560 all this wisdom and he just knew things. 988 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:50,040 And I said, hey, after that we got said, hey, man, we we need, 989 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:51,760 we're all we know we're doing. We're all young. 990 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,120 We need Someone Like You. He goes and he looked at me. 991 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,480 He goes, no, he goes, I've done this. 992 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:03,440 He goes and you have no idea what's getting ready to happen 993 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,200 and what you're going to go through. 994 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,680 He goes in, it's wonderful and incredibly hard and he goes, but 995 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,400 I did this. I, I, this is. 996 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,360 And they have family in the area. 997 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,920 Next week he was not there visiting a church with family 998 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,320 and stuff. And then I think the third week 999 00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,320 they were back and then they were back. 1000 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:35,240 And there I would I in a sermon within a few weeks, I talked 1001 00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:39,160 about, one of my illustrations was who knows what the point 1002 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,360 was, but about all the Americans being rescued from Dunkirk. 1003 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,080 He comes up to me afterwards. He goes, hey, Americans were not 1004 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,800 rescued from Dunkirk. We weren't in the war yet. 1005 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:59,160 And I was like, boy, if I messed that up, imagine what he thinks 1006 00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,160 about my Bible teacher. And every once in a while, you 1007 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,880 know, we would sit down and I'd say, help me with this or that. 1008 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,200 And he would say, he would say, look, you can do whatever you 1009 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,360 want. He said, and there's freedom and 1010 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:12,600 all this. We have these things that are 1011 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,720 given to us in the scriptures where we need to obey those 1012 00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:16,200 things. And there's other areas where 1013 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,640 we're not super clear because, but look at the patterns in 1014 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,560 scriptures because I would just encourage you to look at the 1015 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,760 Bible and do what it says, not just directly, but when it gives 1016 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,680 you a pattern for something, do that, even if it's not 1017 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,440 prescriptive, if it's D script, use that too, you know, and 1018 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,880 enjoy the freedom. But he just always pressed on me 1019 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,400 to go back to the scriptures. And he is a he's a great teacher 1020 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,360 and he teaches from a pastor's perspective, from a shepherding 1021 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,000 standpoint, which is different than what I do. 1022 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,160 So that was always real help because hey, here's an 1023 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,000 illustration you might think of, or here's here's an application. 1024 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,400 Here's something that would be meaningful to be 1 evil and in 1025 00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,480 in there were some really hard days in those first few years 1026 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:03,480 where I made real mistakes. And you know, you always go, I'm 1027 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,200 going to be a pastor going to go inherit someone else's mistakes. 1028 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,320 So I'm going to plant a church that way I don't have to inherit 1029 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:09,680 this. What church might say, I don't 1030 00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:11,600 want to inherit anybody else's mistakes. 1031 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,760 Well, that's dumb because you're going to inherit mistakes. 1032 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,680 They're either someone else's or yours. 1033 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,320 And I would just tell you they're all terrible. 1034 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,560 But when you inherit someone else's mistakes, at least you 1035 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,600 can say I'm cleaning up someone else's mess. 1036 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,160 But when you cleaned up your own mistake, they're like, so you're 1037 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,840 going to clean up the mess that you made and you feel, OK, well, 1038 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,440 I may not be that good at this. And so he really helped come 1039 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,760 alongside and was a great strength and encouragement as to 1040 00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,760 Tom and me, particularly in some early days where I made mistakes 1041 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,760 and didn't handle things well. And he could just say, Hey, why 1042 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,360 don't you just call him, Hey, just go meet with them and just 1043 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,040 tell them you're wrong and you're sorry and you're you 1044 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,480 didn't know what you were doing. I mean, he just that practical 1045 00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,600 advice and he'd be like, read this passage. 1046 00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,240 Tell me what that what you think that means. 1047 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,440 So and Joey is always the life of the party. 1048 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,280 She is always going to be there to encourage and give strength 1049 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,120 to you and love you and see the best. 1050 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,840 And so they, they have been a backbone couple to us. 1051 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,840 And, you know, and then you mentioned Bo Ed Farris, who's 1052 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:18,800 discipled us in through the years. 1053 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,000 And we had another friends, Bill and Suzanne Shaw in Atlanta that 1054 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:23,440 mentored us. And they're a bunch. 1055 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,240 There's nothing that just happens in a vacuum around one 1056 00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:31,120 person or one couple. God has brought so many people 1057 00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,880 to bear. But Tom and Joy Fowler have been 1058 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:37,200 in the nitty gritty and in the deep weeds of it from the very 1059 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,960 beginning. Thanks again for listening as we 1060 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,640 reflect on some of the formative moments of Grace Church. 1061 00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,880 We are very grateful for your participation in the life of the 1062 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,240 local church and we look forward to many years of ministry ahead. 1063 00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:52,640 We'll see you next time on the Members podcast.