1 00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:03,800 Welcome back or to the grace church members podcast, I'm one 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,600 of your host, Chris rivers. And in this episode I'm joined 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,300 by my co-host. Scott Mozingo and Jim Taylor to 4 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:13,200 focus on why recovery at Grace Church is a discipleship issue. 5 00:00:13,700 --> 00:00:17,800 Jim Taylor has a unique pastoral story and wears a couple hats at 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,800 Grace Church in the area of care and recovery and our teaching 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,900 team. And I got to say during this 8 00:00:22,900 --> 00:00:25,100 interview, I was completely speechless. 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,100 I felt that is Scott and Jim discussed this topic. 10 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:30,200 I couldn't keep up as I took notes. 11 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:33,100 So I'm very grateful. We are able to record this. 12 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:36,300 So, like yourself, I could replay it in terms of this 13 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:39,000 episode to help set the tone. I think it's important to 14 00:00:39,008 --> 00:00:41,800 mention that. We all have an innate sense that 15 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:43,700 the world is not the way, it should be. 16 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:47,300 As Believers, we recognize, there is only one thing we have 17 00:00:47,300 --> 00:00:50,200 lost and that is our relationship with the Creator. 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,500 God created us to be in an unhindered relationship with him 19 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:58,400 and each other and he's placed eternity in our hearts and made 20 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,200 a way for our relationship with him too. 21 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:03,600 Stored as we navigate this interview, I think this idea 22 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,000 will be a helpful lens for us to look through for this 23 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,200 conversation. And if you're a first-time 24 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,500 listener, we're excited that you've joined us. 25 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:15,400 The goal of this resource is to address discipleship issues in 26 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,000 the life of Grace Church and discuss how to be more fully 27 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,400 devoted to God. So be sure to check out our 28 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:25,200 podcast page at Grace Church. S c.org /y discipleship. 29 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,900 And on this page you can access a summary of this episode and 30 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:31,300 additional resources to help. Help you move towards 31 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:33,300 discipleship. Okay, let's jump into this 32 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:37,100 episode with Scott and Jim on. Why recovery is a discipleship 33 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:41,200 issue? Jim Taylor, tell us a little bit 34 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,400 about how long you been on staff. 35 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,500 How you got here? And what are you doing now? 36 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,100 Yeah, well started in 2006. So coming up on 17 years on 37 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:56,600 staff now and when I started was not a pastor was not qualified 38 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,200 to be a pastor. I was an addict a liar. 39 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:04,500 Maybe later terrified, to be honest with people and the 40 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:07,300 church was much smaller than and desperate for somebody that knew 41 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:09,800 how to work on computers and make videos. 42 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,600 So they agreed to pay me. And through that process of me 43 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,000 coming on staff and getting connected to people, here, just 44 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,900 had a couple of pastors care about me. 45 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:25,300 Some of my sin got exposed. I was actually addicted to 46 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:30,000 pornography and terrified to be honest about that. 47 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:34,100 And and really over the course of about two and a half years, 48 00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:38,400 was really the first time that somebody saw me for who I really 49 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,000 was. I was an addict. 50 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,900 I was liar as a manipulator. I was fearful and still loved me 51 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:46,500 and trying to help me now. I think that could have happened 52 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,900 earlier in my life but because I wasn't willing to be honest, 53 00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:55,000 nobody ever really had the opportunity So God was 54 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,200 discipling me, you know, through my work and which is not why I 55 00:02:59,208 --> 00:03:01,800 took the job, right? He had other plans. 56 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:08,700 So really after I started to be honest and work through my own 57 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:11,800 recovery, there was no we didn't have region then there was no 58 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,200 12-step process for that. Well I mean other than like 59 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,400 essay or something but within the church just kind of 60 00:03:18,408 --> 00:03:23,000 one-on-one discipleship, right? No being exposed learning how to 61 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,200 deal with. Sin, and a lot of it at the 62 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,500 beginning, you know, in in Christianity, we talk a lot 63 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:31,800 about the heart and behavior. And what's the relationship 64 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,900 between those two things? But, honestly, for where I was, 65 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:41,700 I just had to start obeying and disciplining myself in some ways 66 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,600 and then my heart became accessible. 67 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:46,700 My heart wasn't really accessible because I think I was 68 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:50,000 enslaved. So the word recovery. 69 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,500 Is maybe a new word for some folks. 70 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,500 So I'm going to guess that 13 years ago. 71 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:58,600 Recovery was probably not in your vocabulary. 72 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,100 So how have you come to understand recovery and what do 73 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:06,400 you want Grace Church members to really know when they say the 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,200 word recovery? Yes, a few. 75 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,500 If you look up the word recovery in Webster's what you're going 76 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:17,200 to find is one definition of be like returning to a normal 77 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,800 State, you know, of Health. Talking about the Mind or 78 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,400 strength, it's used in the athletic world. 79 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,800 You know, if there's an injury going to go through recovery, 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,800 we're going to rebuild get that shoulder working right? 81 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,800 Again, or right, whatever, or regaining possession or control 82 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,900 of something that's been lost or stolen, you know, as how that 83 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:40,800 word is defined, which, you know, if we go by that 84 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,400 definition, everybody's in recovery and the and I think 85 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,600 that's true. And I, the reason I think that's 86 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:53,400 true is because, as Hannity, we've all experienced loss, not 87 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,000 just personal loss, like some of us have lost people, some of us 88 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:06,300 have lost status or wealth, or sanity, or health is something, 89 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:12,300 but but speaking, as Humanity as a whole, like Humanity has lost 90 00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:14,500 something. And if we go back to the 91 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:18,200 earliest chapters of scripture, you know, God created people to 92 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,400 be in a nun, hindered relationship. 93 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:25,500 Ship with himself and with each other you know we read in 94 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:28,900 Genesis that Adam and Eve knew each other, there was no shame 95 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:32,200 at that time. They would walk with God in the 96 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,700 cool of the day and perfect Fellowship. 97 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:37,100 There was no lying, there was no sin. 98 00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:39,100 There was no evil. That nothing was hindered. 99 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:42,800 The Earth would just obey them, you know if they wanted to 100 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,300 cultivate it and produce something. 101 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:51,000 So that's how God created Humanity to have control to Rule 102 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,500 and have dominion and have perfect fellowship with him and 103 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:55,900 with each other. And that's what we've lost. 104 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,600 And I really think that everybody in that sense is in 105 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,200 recovery and seeking recovery. We just all disagree on what's 106 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,800 been lost and how to get it back. 107 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,500 How do we think about recovery? And then a word that people may 108 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:12,300 be more familiar with which is redemption. 109 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:15,000 Think about how this tool Works go together. 110 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,300 Yeah, yeah. And I think here's what's, 111 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:20,300 here's, what's fascinating about the story of scripture, right? 112 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:24,200 God is redeeming, but if you read through Genesis, when he 113 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,000 created the world, he says everything's good. 114 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,000 That's the word, he uses good. But if you read the end of the 115 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,300 scriptures, like, if you go to Revelation, I don't think we're 116 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:39,000 just returning to what was. I think it's an upgrade, right? 117 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,500 It's Garden. Plus it's is moving from good to 118 00:06:42,500 --> 00:06:46,800 perfect, right? Where we know that sin and some 119 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,300 form existed after God created the world. 120 00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:55,700 Before Adam and Eve sinned like Satan evil existed, right? 121 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,100 Because of his Rebellion but ultimately even that's going to 122 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:02,900 be dealt with and what we see in Revelation is Heaven and Earth 123 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:07,100 are united. So Redemption is you know part 124 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:10,000 of that process. God is buying back right? 125 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,900 He's redeeming bringing back but we're not just recovering what's 126 00:07:14,900 --> 00:07:16,900 been lost? Like it's even better. 127 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,800 I think that's where Paul says in Romans 8, you know the 128 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,700 suffering. As of this present life are not 129 00:07:21,700 --> 00:07:24,700 even worthy to be compared with the glory that will be revealed 130 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:26,400 in us later. And he talks about, you know 131 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,700 eyes, he quotes Isaiah Eye Has Not Seen ear, has not heard, it 132 00:07:29,708 --> 00:07:31,200 hasn't even entered into the heart of man. 133 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,400 The things that God has prepared for those that love him. 134 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:38,900 So to me, you know, we're all kind of on this process, we all 135 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:42,300 are seeking what's been lost? And then ultimately, there's 136 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:45,500 going to be a day coming. We're all that is not just 137 00:07:45,500 --> 00:07:49,200 restored in return, but so much more, so Jim you're talking 138 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,200 about recovery. Wanting to get back something 139 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,200 that's lost, but the world. Having different ideas on how to 140 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,500 do that. Does that resonate with your 141 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:00,000 own? Your own story? 142 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,300 Yeah, sure. And I think that's pretty 143 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:06,500 common, right? We all have this innate sense. 144 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:09,500 I mean, this is where Ecclesiastes 3 says, eternity is 145 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:12,100 in our hearts. Like there's a there's just a 146 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:15,900 piece built into every person that knows whether you're a 147 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:17,900 Christian or not, it doesn't matter. 148 00:08:18,500 --> 00:08:22,900 Everyone knows the World is not the way it should be we all have 149 00:08:22,900 --> 00:08:26,900 that sense right. And I think then life 150 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:32,200 necessarily becomes this journey of well how do I make it? 151 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,700 What it should be. We all have this longing. 152 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:36,700 We have this idea. It's where we get our sense of 153 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:39,299 morality and Justice. It's why we have laws. 154 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:43,400 It's like, hey, things are not good. 155 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:45,900 We all know that. And how do we make them? 156 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:48,100 Good. How we get back, right? 157 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:49,800 How do we recover? What's missing? 158 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,400 What's What's the key to a lot? I mean, it's just true in every 159 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,100 society. It's true in every culture. 160 00:08:56,100 --> 00:08:59,500 It's true in every person. And so that's where I think 161 00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:04,400 everybody begins to kind of take their own recovery journey of 162 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,200 you. See it all the time when kids 163 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:07,900 are wounded by their parents, what do they do? 164 00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:11,900 They the pendulum swings and they go the opposite way, right? 165 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:14,600 And they parent completely differently than their parents 166 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,500 do right? Or you'll have a generation that 167 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:21,700 sacrifices a lot and Tries to protect their children from a 168 00:09:21,700 --> 00:09:25,000 bunch of pain and so then you know that the pendulum swings 169 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,300 the other way and it just it goes back and forth all the 170 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:28,600 time. He wrote people are always 171 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,000 seeking how to get back what's been lost. 172 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,400 So, for me, personally, just from some of the pain in my own 173 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,600 life, I mean, I tried all kinds of different Avenues. 174 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,400 I mean, I tried, you know, different drugs. 175 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,400 I tried alcohol and tried, you know, illicit sex and then 176 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,500 eventually landed on pornography, you know, and 177 00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:51,400 understanding things. About eight years later is 178 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,000 because I could kind of maintain one facade, right? 179 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,600 Look the way I wanted to look but also within a few moments, 180 00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:03,700 have something that felt like it made the world work, the way it 181 00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:07,600 should work like so I could be obeyed the way I wanted to be 182 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:08,900 obeyed. I could be served the way I 183 00:10:08,908 --> 00:10:12,600 wanted to be served. I could feel in charge, not out 184 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,600 of control, whatever. I mean there's all that sense, 185 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,700 right? So if you think about it in that 186 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:19,000 way, you know the world will tell. 187 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,900 You look, if you get a An amount of money if you get a certain 188 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:24,300 amount of power. If you achieve this, if you 189 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:29,400 accomplish this, that's what will recover what's been lost? 190 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,000 Now, as Believers, we know, that's not true, right, right? 191 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,400 Because what we've really lost is unhindered fellowship with 192 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,700 the Creator with the god of the universe. 193 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,500 And so, here's what, you know, if you read through the book of 194 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:46,500 First, John book of First, John ends in chapter 5 verse 21, he 195 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:50,200 says, little children, keep yourself away from it. 196 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,200 Anything that might take God's place in your hearts. 197 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,100 And so here's here's the strange reality of all that is we all 198 00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:03,600 have some kind of place in our hearts, that that's where God 199 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,900 fits. That's where he should be at the 200 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:07,100 top. He should be at the center, 201 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:09,400 that's what we really want, right? 202 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,100 But we have a tendency to fill it with anything and everything 203 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:19,000 and so the strange irony of that is whatever you whatever you put 204 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:25,300 in your life in that God place. That is the thing that loses all 205 00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:29,800 boundaries. It just grows completely wild 206 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,300 and takes over right? Because that's what God has to 207 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:36,100 do. Right God by his very nature is 208 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:41,000 an infinite being which means he has no boundaries his no needs. 209 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,500 There's no end to him that he's not contained, right, right. 210 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:51,200 So, if I take a finite thing and I put that in a place of that 211 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,800 supposed to be for a Something infinite. 212 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:57,600 Well, then that finite thing. Loses all boundaries and takes 213 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,500 infinite characteristics. That's right. 214 00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:02,400 It takes over it grows. And so, then somebody ends up 215 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,900 doing things that they never thought they would do. 216 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:10,000 They commit heinous crimes or sinful Acts or they lie and 217 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,100 deceive and their whole life gets better. 218 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:13,700 I mean, it's what you see with every addiction. 219 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,000 Right, and it doesn't, I'm not just talk about drugs and 220 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,000 alcohol, but people can be addicted to power, they can be 221 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,200 addicted to victimhood. You know, they can be addicted 222 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,300 to some kind of status. They, they can be addicted to 223 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:28,800 their own rightness, their own way of thinking. 224 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,100 I mean, it can be, it can be anything, but, whatever that 225 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:35,300 thing is, if it's not God, it will take over your life and it 226 00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:39,000 will grow out of control. And so, we just see that happen 227 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,300 with everybody, and part of the beauty of the Gospel, is it, 228 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,200 when everything gets out of whack like that, it brings 229 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,200 restoration because it actually brings the thing that we were 230 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,100 most craving are Deepest need, you know this is what Jesus says 231 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:56,700 in John 17:3. He says this is eternal life 232 00:12:56,700 --> 00:13:00,200 that they know you father and the one whom you sent Jesus 233 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,500 Christ. That's eternal life. 234 00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:05,800 Eternal life is not something that starts after people put my 235 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,300 body in the ground, Eternal Life Starts Now, right? 236 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,200 It's a, it's an unhindered. I mean, the crazy reality is, 237 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:17,900 everyone could have unhindered fellowship with their creator 238 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:21,900 and live in harmony with other people that's available now. 239 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,100 That's the amazing truth of the Gospel is even though I am a 240 00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:31,400 sinner and I still sin because of the work of Jesus, I can 241 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,200 actually have an unhindered, a completely unhindered 242 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,900 relationship with the creator of the universe right now. 243 00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:42,500 Yeah, I think about second Peter 1 by his divine power, God has 244 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:46,600 given us everything we need for life and godliness, not eternal 245 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,200 life. Even in the way that we think 246 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,200 about the future. Like we're in a right 247 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,800 relationship with God, were Justified. 248 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:52,800 So we die. We go to heaven. 249 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:55,500 That's that's not what he thought he might be talking 250 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:57,100 about that, but he's talking about a lot more rice. 251 00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:58,900 Talking about exactly what you're talking about in the 252 00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:01,500 here. And now we can do that because 253 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:05,900 of God's Great and precious promises, it goes on to say and 254 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,600 his divine power within us. And so what we seem to have 255 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:15,200 lacking is a view that God wants something more for us than we 256 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,100 can even imagine. Yeah, and it would be terrible. 257 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:22,100 If God said this is my desire for you but then he didn't give 258 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:25,000 us, the means to him. Push it right but he does give 259 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,600 us the means to accomplish it by his Holy Spirit by his Word 260 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:34,200 Fellowship of Believers. And so it seems like the idea of 261 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:40,200 recovering something in recognizing the impediments, the 262 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,700 obstacle, the enemy that addiction can bring is part of 263 00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:48,300 us. Realizing how to get there. 264 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:49,400 Is that fair? Yeah. 265 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,500 And so, you're asking us as a congregation To have a bigger 266 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:58,900 View and expanded view of recovery that is, is maybe not 267 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,700 just the traditional view, as you've already stated and then a 268 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,100 more expanded view of addiction. Yeah. 269 00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:08,600 Which so, what's the, how does that work? 270 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,000 As far as in your experience? If people are willing to go down 271 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,500 this journey with you so now you get to teach and you get to lead 272 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:18,100 people and we'll talk about specific ministry here in a 273 00:15:18,108 --> 00:15:21,100 minute. But do you find that? 274 00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:24,500 That is a hard sell for folks. To identify themselves as 275 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,800 addicts based on whatever, preconceived notion that they 276 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,300 have, what that means. I think it's an obstacle and I 277 00:15:31,308 --> 00:15:33,400 mean, here's the thing, there's Pride on both sides. 278 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,000 Okay. Yeah, explain that. 279 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:36,500 We're all prideful people, right? 280 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:41,100 So, I may find myself in one season of life and I hear about 281 00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:44,700 the 12 steps or recovery or regen or whatever it is, and I 282 00:15:44,708 --> 00:15:47,300 go, oh, that's for those people, right? 283 00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:49,200 That's not for me. I'm not addicted to anything. 284 00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:52,400 I might think that, which is a form of Pride, right? 285 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,300 Right. But, Cuz this is addiction is 286 00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:59,600 just another term for what the Bible calls idolatry and that's 287 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:00,800 what it is. That's a good, that's a good 288 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,400 decision. And if you read the Old 289 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,100 Testament, I mean that's what the Old Testament is about is 290 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:10,600 just about God offering himself redeeming. 291 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,500 A people calling them to himself saying you can be in a 292 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:17,100 relationship with me and here's what that looks like and then 293 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,600 them putting in false substitutes for that right? 294 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,400 And how it destroys them and he Out of love has to bring 295 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,900 discipline on them, not because he's needy, like that's part of 296 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:33,000 what it means to be God, he doesn't, he has no needs, right? 297 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,100 It's not that he's insecure or needs a bunch of people to 298 00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:40,300 worship him in a firm him. Here's what I used to say, I 299 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:42,900 used to say, God doesn't care about your happiness, he cares 300 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:45,600 about your Holiness. That's what I used to sit heard 301 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,700 that before. And and I realized over time, 302 00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:52,500 like, that is probably not true. Because how can you have an 303 00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:56,000 Enoch relationship with anyone who doesn't care about your 304 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,500 happiness, that doesn't really work, right then, we're not 305 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:01,700 really talking about a relationship. 306 00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:03,500 We're talking about slaves, right? 307 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:07,200 You know, so then I started saying, well, God cares, more 308 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,099 about your Holiness and about your happiness, or I would say, 309 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,500 God is not a dream killer, but he cares, more about your 310 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:15,400 Holiness in about your dreams, and then I heard Matt Williams 311 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,000 preach one time. And he said, hey, joy and 312 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,000 happiness of the same things. I remember the same sermon. 313 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,400 Yeah. And I was like, look up start 314 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:20,900 over. Okay. 315 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:24,500 Yeah, that destroys that Logical statement, right? 316 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:29,400 And so here's what I say now. God cares about your happiness, 317 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,700 but he knows that your ultimate happiness or joy is impossible 318 00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:37,800 apart from Holiness. So what did he do? 319 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:43,100 He's been working for Millennia to make a way for Unholy people 320 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,800 to be holy so that they can be in fellowship with him because 321 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,700 he knows your happiness is tied to a relationship with him. 322 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:56,000 So he's going to go to Great expense and sacrifice himself 323 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,800 and Suffer in this world and walk the path that we have to 324 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,000 walk to make that happen. Which is an incredible thought. 325 00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:06,100 And that's that's where, you know, we talk a lot about 326 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:10,300 worship but Jesus never once said worship me but he did say 327 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:13,300 follow me. And so the amazing thing is we 328 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:18,100 have this God who doesn't just sit up in heaven, aloof apart 329 00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:20,800 from our suffering, ready to press the Smite button. 330 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:24,400 He actually did exactly the opposite, he did the unthinkable 331 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,300 humbled himself. Became a man and walked the 332 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:33,400 difficult path and actually navigated this broken World 333 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,200 perfectly. Like we've never been able to 334 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,100 do. I've never even come close to 335 00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:41,000 that not even a day, not even a day, not even an hour, right? 336 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,500 He navigated this broken World perfectly and yet took all that 337 00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:50,000 Injustice. Anyway, it's an amazing thought. 338 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,700 So that somehow and I don't understand how this is the case 339 00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:58,000 but somehow you know you read passage like Ian's to which God 340 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,000 has taken Jesus. He's given Jesus name above 341 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,300 every other name, so that the name of Jesus every knee will 342 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:04,100 bow. Every tongue will confess, you 343 00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:07,900 know, in heaven and on Earth and under the Earth to the glory of 344 00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:11,400 God, the father, right? He's given him a unique name. 345 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,900 We read in Revelation chapter 19, there's a name written on 346 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:16,300 him. That no one knows except himself 347 00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:22,100 like he's exalted Jesus somehow, he is tied in this Grand, Cosmic 348 00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:26,600 scheme away to exalt his son and show love. 349 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,300 To his son and glorify his son. And he is somehow tied that to 350 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:36,500 our joy and happiness. So the to have to go together 351 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,700 and that's unbelievable to me that I am most satisfied and I 352 00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:45,400 have the most joy in the most happiness, when I'm the most 353 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,200 connected to him. And then Jesus turns around and 354 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,400 Promises to share all of his inheritance with us, right. 355 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,300 Like treat us as brothers and sisters, I mean, it's just it's 356 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,800 an honor. Unfathomable thing, right? 357 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:01,700 But I think when you begin to think on that scale and 358 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:05,100 understand those kind of implications of the Gospel, then 359 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:09,200 a term like addiction or recovery or whatever and like it 360 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,600 just kills all Pride, right? Because it helps you see clearly 361 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,700 that God has this desire for me to be satisfied. 362 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:20,500 In him, he's going to be glorified. 363 00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:24,600 He is ultimately interested in my happiness as you stay, as you 364 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:30,200 said, but I am Constantly pursuing other things to replace 365 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,600 him and to fill that spot that's his alone to fill, right? 366 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:37,500 So that's what idolatry is exactly right? 367 00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:42,500 That that is idolatry and its basic form is our way of saying 368 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:45,400 no I'm not going to accept you as Creator. 369 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:49,200 I'm going to Dethrone you and I'm putting myself as God and 370 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,500 I'm going to create something in my own image, which is what's so 371 00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:55,000 fascinating about the Old Testament scriptures, whenever 372 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,900 you see Idols, you know, we Always kind of make fun. 373 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,900 I mean Maybe not maybe we don't make fun but we it seems weird 374 00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:03,600 to me. I'm like, why would somebody bow 375 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,300 down to a statue? Right. 376 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,900 Right. But that's what that is in its 377 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:10,700 most basic form is. I'm going to create something in 378 00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:14,500 my likeness. Like God created me and his 379 00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:17,800 likeness and His Image, and he put people in his Temple. 380 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,100 I mean, the scripture say, the Earth is a temple of the Lord. 381 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:23,300 So where do all the religions? Get that idea, that you go to a 382 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:25,900 temple and there's an image that represents the god. 383 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,700 Well, it comes. From God because that's what he 384 00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:31,200 did right. He created the Earth, he created 385 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,200 people in His image, he put the people on the Earth so that if 386 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,700 all creation wanted to know what is God look like, look at these 387 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:40,700 two people, it's a representation, right? 388 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:43,800 And we know that Jesus is the exact representation. 389 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,500 That's what Hebrews calls him. Right. 390 00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:51,100 But that idea that God put his image and his Temple and then 391 00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:54,900 when I have some idle in my life, that's exactly what I'm 392 00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:58,900 doing is I'm as I'm rejecting In that idea and I create something 393 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:04,100 in my image and my likeness in human likeness and then I say 394 00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:07,400 you're my God, deliver me that's that's the irony of it. 395 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,700 All is, we bound out to something that the scriptures 396 00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:12,400 say doesn't have eyes doesn't have a mind. 397 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,800 Can't think can't do anything. And so in all of that, I become 398 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,500 more animalistic. I lose my Humanity because I'm 399 00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:25,900 worshipping something that is not alive, right, right. 400 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,700 And but it's a Wait, for me to try to be the Creator, but I 401 00:22:29,708 --> 00:22:31,300 can't really create anything that's alive. 402 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:34,200 I can only create dead things in my own image. 403 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,200 And I think we're just thinking about pastoring, our church, 404 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,800 where I see the struggle is, we want to have it both ways. 405 00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:50,000 We want the grace of Jesus, we understand we have a need, but 406 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,200 yet we still want to fill our lives with these things and then 407 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,200 put Jesus on top of it and ask him. 408 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,800 To bless it or at least, to be okay with it. 409 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,600 So we have kind of all of our world worldliness And then we 410 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,000 have Jesus. And so we are, we are 411 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,400 synchronizing these things which has been a theme throughout 412 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,100 throughout history. Now, I'm not saying that these 413 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:16,400 things are bad, so when I say worldliness when I mean is 414 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,500 putting over identifying with those things, I mean we've seen 415 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:23,000 pretty clear there are study of Ecclesiastes that God gives us 416 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,800 all these things for us to enjoy. 417 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,500 He just says, don't make them ultimate, don't make them God's 418 00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:30,000 worship, the God who gives them to you and be content in your 419 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,300 circumstance, right? But we have a hard time being 420 00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:36,800 content. So we All of these things and 421 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,500 then we throw God on it top for good measure. 422 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,200 That doesn't mean we don't really truly believe. 423 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,500 That doesn't mean we don't have faith, but I just feel like 424 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,500 we're confused. Yeah, we're cluttered right? 425 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,000 So then how does how would you agree with that? 426 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,600 Is that would, so then how does the recovery process for us? 427 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:58,000 You know, addicts of all different kinds, how do we begin 428 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,600 to strip away those things and separate those things so that we 429 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:08,800 can truly be satisfied? I'd in God alone as our Lord 430 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,800 Savior King. How do we do that? 431 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,600 Yeah, you know, it's a great question. 432 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,600 And I don't know that I have a great answer. 433 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,900 I do think about Isaiah 44, you know, and Isaiah 44, he kind of 434 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:24,200 gives this story. He says there's a pine tree and 435 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,200 a cypress tree that are in the forest and God sends rain and it 436 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,700 nurses, those trees, those trees grow up and then you have a 437 00:24:31,708 --> 00:24:35,700 story of somebody who goes and he cuts down the tree, right? 438 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:39,100 And it says, with a portion of the tree, he cuts it up into 439 00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:43,500 firewood and he builds a fire, he bakes bread, he cooks meet, 440 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,700 he warms himself and he says I'm filled, I'm satisfied, right? 441 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,900 And with another portion of the tree he gets out his tools and 442 00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:55,300 he carves out a figure in human likeness. 443 00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:57,500 He bows down to it and he warships it. 444 00:24:57,500 --> 00:24:59,400 And he says, rescue me. You're my God. 445 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,800 So here's where I think the church has gotten off track 446 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,000 especially when we talk about recovery or not even recovery, 447 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,300 just how to not be enslaved to sin, right? 448 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:13,400 Just spiritual life, right? Spiritual life is you know, if 449 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,100 you're talking about something like pornography Or a sexual 450 00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,400 addiction. Then it becomes like a lust 451 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,100 management approach, you know, put a rubber band on your wrist. 452 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:25,400 And every time you have a lustful thought, snap the rubber 453 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,400 band, right? You know, like a like you're a 454 00:25:27,408 --> 00:25:29,300 dog and you're training yourself, right? 455 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,800 I'm not going to say there's no value to that. 456 00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:35,900 I'm just saying like that doesn't address the core issue 457 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:38,400 and so what ends up happening with something like that in the 458 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,500 lust management approach? Or like Colossians 2 would say 459 00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:43,400 all these rules about don't touch. 460 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,400 Don't taste don't handle, you know, he goes. 461 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,500 Those rules seem wise because they require strong spiritual 462 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:54,300 devotion and highest self denial, but they provide no help 463 00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:55,400 in. Conquering a person's evil 464 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,500 desires, so that kind of approach of don't don't, don't 465 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:03,600 stay away, stay away, stay away. It doesn't really fix the 466 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,100 problem, right? And so we see in Isaiah 44, like 467 00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:10,400 there's a legitimate use of the tree and an illegitimate use of 468 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,000 the tree. And so, the problem with that 469 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,500 kind of approach is you basically Say to somebody. 470 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,100 Hey Scott. I know that you'd love to live 471 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,400 in this house and it's a beautiful house and it's and 472 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,400 it's, it would be wonderful, right? 473 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,400 But you know what? I looked at the house and I 474 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,700 looked out the back window. And you know what? 475 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:34,100 I saw, I saw a tree actually, there's a bunch of trees and you 476 00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:36,100 know, what happens when you get around trees, right? 477 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,500 You make Idols, so I'm sorry you can't live there. 478 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:42,300 You can't enjoy all that goodness because it's too close 479 00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:44,800 to trees. And since you're an idolater, 480 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,200 you An idol. So we just got to stay away. 481 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,400 Well, what's the problem with that? 482 00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:53,100 The problem with that is, how are you going to have firewood? 483 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:55,800 Are you going to be warm? How are you going to cook bread? 484 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,800 Cook me be nourished. Be filled. 485 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,600 Hmm, okay, because God has created a world and he's given 486 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,300 people, five senses and part of the way that I know God and 487 00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:08,600 enjoy God Is by enjoying his creation. 488 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,600 That's what we see in Genesis, right. 489 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,300 I'm gonna go put my hands up to something. 490 00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:13,800 I'm going to work. I'm going to cultivate and 491 00:27:13,808 --> 00:27:15,400 produce. It's part of how I glorify. 492 00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:18,100 By God, it's part of my relationship with him as I get 493 00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:20,600 to say, thank you. God, this is amazing. 494 00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:23,600 And then I get to present something to him, right? 495 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,800 And so you strip all that away, then you strip away the marrow 496 00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:32,700 of the relationship. And so what we've got to figure 497 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:36,500 out how to do is, we have to figure out how to practice 498 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,800 self-care and healthy, holy ways. 499 00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:46,000 So that we are enjoying the goodness, God gives us but Then 500 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,200 not taking that and forming it into an idol and making it an 501 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,400 ultimate thing that I bow down to and says, I can't be happy 502 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,300 without this, so we talked about like lust management. 503 00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:00,700 Yeah, we couldn't talk about behavior modification, but it 504 00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:02,700 seems like there could be some tension between that. 505 00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:05,500 And what you said earlier about, sometimes I just need to obey 506 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,600 and then my motivation will follow how would you split the 507 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,000 difference? They are between just obeying 508 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,200 and trusting God. That's right, it's a great 509 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,200 question and That is attention for sure, which is the 510 00:28:17,208 --> 00:28:19,600 scriptures are full of, but I think that's where Peter says. 511 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,400 You're a slave to whatever you will be your slave to whatever 512 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,300 controls you. And here's a great biblical 513 00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:27,000 paradoxes, we're slaves either way, right? 514 00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:28,700 And so, Paul says right Romans, right? 515 00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:31,100 You're you're a slave to righteousness or you're a slave. 516 00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:33,200 Does it sound like you're not getting out of slavery? 517 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,100 That's right. You're going to be bound in some 518 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:38,000 way. But are you going to be bound to 519 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,000 an infinite being whose holy who has your best interest in mind? 520 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,400 Are you going to be bound to something unhealthy and Unholy 521 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,700 is going to destroy you? Geez, this talks about this idea 522 00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:51,400 to that, wherever your treasure is what is your heart to your 523 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,600 heart follows. And so when the Bible, you know, 524 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,300 uses this word enslavement, and slave to sin, I think that is 525 00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:02,300 where some of the discipline, you know, part of what I had to 526 00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:05,200 do in my own story. And I read this from Every Man's 527 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,200 Battle is, I had to starve my eyes for six weeks. 528 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,800 Well, that's behavior modification, right, right. 529 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,000 But here's the thing. I was so enslaved. 530 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,100 My heart was not accessible. I could not see clearly. 531 00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:25,400 I had to just discipline myself to go do something that I had no 532 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,800 confidence would work. And then after six weeks, I 533 00:29:27,808 --> 00:29:30,100 remember coming to a service one, Sunday morning, and I just 534 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:32,900 cried like a baby because all of a sudden I felt like my heart 535 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:35,000 was free. Now, that's a weird thing to 536 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,400 say, but my wife was standing next to me and she was like, 537 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,800 what is wrong with you? Like I don't know just I'm fine 538 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:47,600 just talk about it but but at that point, then I had a certain 539 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,200 level where my heart was accessible and my heart could 540 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,300 then begin help lead my behavior, right? 541 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:58,600 So I do think you can become so entrenched in your idolatry or 542 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,300 you can become so dominated by your addiction that you're just 543 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:07,200 living like an animal. And when that happens, somebody 544 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,400 just has to come in and Intervene and there just has to 545 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,100 be a like a, it's like a detox, right? 546 00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:16,700 It's a period of time. Where were you get free. 547 00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:20,300 And all of a sudden, you can think again and you begin to 548 00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:23,400 move and then you can experience the goodness of God in 549 00:30:23,408 --> 00:30:26,300 relationship with him and with his community and enjoy those 550 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:29,400 things where they don't just completely. 551 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,400 If it's grown out of bounds, there has to be a shrinking. 552 00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:37,000 Right there, has to be a reorientation of all that, and a 553 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,000 lot of that is just starts with Discipline, which is a big 554 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,900 question that people have when they come into recovery. 555 00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:44,600 And we're like, hey, here's a book with a bunch of homework, 556 00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:46,400 right? And they're thinking how can 557 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,700 homework help me write with not drinking problem. 558 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,200 Well, what they don't understand is the homework is just a tool 559 00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:57,600 to connect you to Jesus and anybody who spends a year 560 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:01,700 connecting with Jesus every day. Well, what happens over time 561 00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:05,500 they find what they're really looking for and then their need 562 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:09,000 for the alcohol or the sex or the drugs, or the anger or the 563 00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:12,600 Like it just it goes away. Yeah, I want to talk about how 564 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:18,100 region helps the accessible heart, but let me share this 565 00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:19,900 illustration. That was shared me years ago 566 00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:24,700 that I have always clung to. And it's about Passover, and 567 00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:28,100 it's basically about the Death, Angel, The Blood over the 568 00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:30,300 doorpost. And you think about the Jews 569 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,100 that are living interspersed among the Egyptians. 570 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,200 And you think about the, you know, the angel of death going 571 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,800 into the Egyptian household, And there's idols on the Altar and 572 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,400 there's no blood on the doorpost and there's death in the house 573 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,400 and then they go to the next house, the Egyptian house and 574 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,500 there's idols on the altar, there's no blood on the 575 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:53,100 doorpost, there's death in the house and then they go to the 576 00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:55,900 Jewish household. And what are they find? 577 00:31:56,700 --> 00:32:02,000 They find idols on the altar. But they find Blood on the 578 00:32:02,008 --> 00:32:04,400 doorpost. And so there's salvation. 579 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:11,100 And and so just a picture of God's grace through obedience by 580 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:16,300 faith, when you're all messed up and all whacked out and all, and 581 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:20,400 looking for all of these God substitutes, there has to be a 582 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,500 moment of Faith where we are saying, I don't really know how 583 00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:29,300 all this works, but I am making my heart accessible and I could 584 00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:32,900 imagine And the Salvation that occurred to that family, the 585 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:37,600 revelation of God as Savior, that that began the 586 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,000 transformation process. And so I just that brings great 587 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,800 comfort to me that I don't have to have my my mantle clear. 588 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,000 You know. Like I don't have to clean 589 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,900 myself up before the recovery process can starts, right? 590 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:55,000 That's right. You don't clean up to take a 591 00:32:55,008 --> 00:32:56,600 bath. That's the way I heard, right? 592 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,600 So tell us about how This idea of region and this specific 593 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,900 program. How does it connect with people 594 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:07,700 who have are trying in the process of trying to make their 595 00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:11,100 heart accessible for change? Yeah, and that's work that God 596 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:14,700 does, right? I mean that, that is where we 597 00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:18,100 have to say, hey, this is not something that we can control 598 00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:22,900 and go do and part of that is, you know, the great irony of 599 00:33:22,908 --> 00:33:24,700 scripture. I mean, the reason Jesus taught 600 00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:27,900 in Parables is to not only reveal truths but to conceal it 601 00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:29,500 from people who write out an arrogant. 602 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,200 And so it's the humble people that get in, right? 603 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,900 The people who are humble enough to say I'm broken, I can't do 604 00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:38,000 it. I need something outside of 605 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,800 myself, Jesus. I need you like, those are the 606 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,700 people that get in, right, right? 607 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,900 Which you just read the gospels and you get very clear on that 608 00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:48,000 fact. I mean, which is why Jesus 609 00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:51,200 challenge the religious leaders so much he's trying to help them 610 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,000 see their need, right? But those are the people ended 611 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,200 up murdering him, right? Mean it was the good Christian 612 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,900 people, Grace Church that killed Jesus, right? 613 00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:01,200 It was right. People had a Billy Graham 614 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:02,400 crusade. That killed Jesus. 615 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,100 I mean it was we're not talking about evil Roman pagans, right? 616 00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:08,300 It was the religious people trying to do the right thing, it 617 00:34:08,308 --> 00:34:11,400 was us. And so that's where Grace is a 618 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,300 threat to us, right? Because we all are 619 00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:17,699 self-righteous and we want to we want to work and earn our way 620 00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:21,199 but at some point this is Berk that God does and when I'm able 621 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:24,800 to humble myself and go, I don't understand how this can help me. 622 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,000 I don't understand how all this can work but I'm going I'm 623 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,400 willing to humble myself and submit to a A process. 624 00:34:30,699 --> 00:34:35,500 I mean I just think that kind of humility is is an invitation of 625 00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:40,100 God into your life. And I just, and that's the deal, 626 00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:43,800 whether it's in region or anything, any aspect of life 627 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,900 that kind of humility to go. I can't handle it. 628 00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:50,199 Jesus, I need you. I'm just, I'm just going to do 629 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,800 what these people tell me. These is where you brought me. 630 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,400 I'm just, I'm just going to obey, right? 631 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,300 And I think, I mean, I've seen God meet people there in amazing 632 00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:02,000 ways, amazing. What because there's nothing 633 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,500 special about region, right? It's like it's not some kind of 634 00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:09,700 like pixie dust magic formula. Or whatever Elixir, you know, 635 00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:11,300 drink this, and you're going to be cured. 636 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,800 And I mean, that's the thing that people find like they come 637 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,800 into region and we have a list of 120 common struggles, which 638 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,100 you can pretty much find anything on there. 639 00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:23,100 And the more I look at it, the bigger modest growth. 640 00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:26,300 Right, right, right. And so it's not about fixing the 641 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:29,600 thing, but here's what I think God does in the universe. 642 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,000 What? However, he's wired up the 643 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,100 Universe, I think part of it, is he continually brings things 644 00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:37,400 into our life to show us, you can't handle it. 645 00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,200 You can handle it. This life is entirely too much. 646 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,700 We, you know, we pervert that passage in 1st Corinthians 10 647 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,000 and we and it gets paraphrase. God can't give you more than you 648 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,700 can handle is very, that's crappy theology. 649 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000 Like I think I heard John Elmore at Watermark say that you know 650 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,200 it's crap theology, right? Like this life is entirely more 651 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,100 than you can handle, right? It's far too much and God brings 652 00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:03,300 those things into our lives to show us. 653 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,600 We desperately need. Mmm. 654 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:07,800 And really being in a relationship. 655 00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:10,200 Ship with him. Like the work of recovery is the 656 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,100 goal of recovery because it's in the work that you get connected 657 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,400 to the creator of the universe. The work is the goal. 658 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:23,200 Yes, the goal is not to fix the thing or two graduate. 659 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:29,000 Fix the thing, check it off, be able to graduate and become a 660 00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:32,900 mentor graduate and become a group leader like it's not a 661 00:36:32,908 --> 00:36:34,600 stepping stone. That's right. 662 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,200 It's a journey in and of itself. That's right. 663 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,700 Because in that journey is Are our meet God, right? 664 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:42,900 And if I meet God, and I'm walking with him and I'm 665 00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:47,300 experiencing his healing and I'm learning to trust and I'm seeing 666 00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:49,100 him work. What more do you need? 667 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,200 Yeah, the goal, as we stated from the very beginning, as 668 00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:54,700 really what drives the entire desire to have these 669 00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:59,300 conversations is to draw us back to Devotion to God. 670 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,800 Love God, love one. Another like that is always the 671 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,700 goal and when we begin to substitute good things Ministry, 672 00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:11,300 Oh, things, even for those for that goal, we were missing the 673 00:37:11,308 --> 00:37:13,600 mark. And so I love that Devotion to 674 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,700 God, that's found through the work through the Journey, 675 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,400 Through the recovery of our true, identity of our soul 676 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,600 satisfaction, and God alone mean, that is that, that's what 677 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:26,900 it's all about. That's what it's all about. 678 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:29,400 That's what it's all about Jim. This has been great. 679 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,600 I really appreciate your Clarity of thought your Insight and so 680 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,500 for someone who's listening and they're like, yes I need this, I 681 00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:42,700 need Recovery, I'm an addict. What would you tell them 682 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:46,900 specifically related to regen region? 683 00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:49,300 Can't fix you. Twelve steps, can't heal. 684 00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:55,100 Anybody only Jesus heals people. So you need Jesus and the time 685 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:58,800 is now just start Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, just show up 686 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,100 starts process. So what we need to do is get 687 00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:04,100 connected to your responsible. Pastor your campus? 688 00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:07,600 Pastor someone at the connect team with the Kinect team on 689 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,700 your Campus, get the details, the where, and when we have a 690 00:38:11,708 --> 00:38:15,100 lot of people on the same journey and we want to bring you 691 00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:18,500 in to just really that Fellowship as we all seek 692 00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:21,600 greater Devotion to God and Devotion to others. 693 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,700 So Jim, thanks so much for being here, excited to see what God 694 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:27,200 does through this. Thanks. 695 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,800 Well, as we wrap up today's conversation, we want to thank 696 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,600 you for joining us. We realized that listening to a 697 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,100 podcast episode can be an individual experience which we 698 00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:40,200 believe is only, Talking through it and applying it to life. 699 00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:43,000 And this is something that we believe lots of people don't 700 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,000 naturally seek out or have built into their lives. 701 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,900 So we want to encourage you to share this episode with someone 702 00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:52,100 else and ask them to share with you any takeaways they receive 703 00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:54,400 from listening. Be prepared to do the same and 704 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,000 approach their feedback with a posture to learn and apply, this 705 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,700 is a great way to move towards this discipleship issue. 706 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:03,900 Be sure to subscribe to your favorite podcasting channel. 707 00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:06,000 So you can be updated with each new episode. 708 00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:09,000 And if you have questions or want Access to any additional 709 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,000 resources to help you, dive deeper into this subject. 710 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,700 Be sure to check out our podcast page at Grace Church. 711 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:19,500 S c.org /y discipleship and if we can help answer any questions 712 00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,600 about this episode or want us to discuss something in a future 713 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,200 episode, email us at why discipleship at Grace, Church, 714 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,600 SC dot-org. Thanks for joining us today. 715 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,000 And we look forward to joining you in the next episode. 716 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,300 Access to any additional resources to help you, dive 717 00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:13,300 deeper into this subject. Be sure to check out our podcast 718 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:17,900 page at Grace Church. S c.org /y discipleship and if 719 00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:21,100 we can help answer any questions about this episode or want us to 720 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,500 discuss something in a future episode, email us at why 721 00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:27,100 discipleship at Grace, Church, SC dot-org. 722 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,600 Thanks for joining us today. And we look forward to joining 723 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,000 you in the next episode.