1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,640 Welcome back to another episode of the Grace Church Members 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:08,400 Podcast. My name is Chris Rivers and I'm 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,200 really glad that you're here with us today. 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,600 We have in the room Scott Musingo, Schofield Foster, our 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,840 downtown campus pastor, and Haley Baranowski, a key 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,880 volunteer leader at our downtown campus. 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,320 Welcome all. Hey Chris, good to see you. 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,120 Good afternoon having. Us. 9 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,310 Great. So today we're going to 10 00:00:26,310 --> 00:00:30,430 introduce the topic of being selfmade and the threat it poses 11 00:00:30,430 --> 00:00:33,510 to our spiritual health. Schofield, why don't you just 12 00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:35,270 kick us off? What is selfmade? 13 00:00:35,270 --> 00:00:38,310 Yeah, well, this is the tagline we had for the study is what 14 00:00:38,310 --> 00:00:42,190 does it mean to be a creature in a selfcreated world? 15 00:00:43,030 --> 00:00:45,750 So we live in a world now that has really just embraced the 16 00:00:45,790 --> 00:00:49,270 idea that it's up to us. It's on us. 17 00:00:49,270 --> 00:00:51,430 It's on you. And there's lots of what? 18 00:00:51,430 --> 00:00:54,190 Freedom in that? It sounds like an autonomy and 19 00:00:54,190 --> 00:00:56,610 independence, but what if it's not? 20 00:00:56,970 --> 00:01:00,730 What if it's actually slavery to having to be the God of your own 21 00:01:00,730 --> 00:01:03,010 world? And so self-made really is 22 00:01:03,010 --> 00:01:06,330 anything that represents us having the pressure on ourselves 23 00:01:06,970 --> 00:01:12,450 to sustain and create our identity, our future life, 24 00:01:12,610 --> 00:01:13,930 right? That it's it's really something 25 00:01:13,930 --> 00:01:17,090 that's now on our shoulders, which starts off like an 26 00:01:17,090 --> 00:01:19,850 invitation and it ends up feeling a lot like a curse. 27 00:01:20,050 --> 00:01:23,400 And so, yeah, there's so many different applications all over 28 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,040 the place, but I think really it's about what does it mean to 29 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,320 be a creature living in a selfcreated world? 30 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,320 OK. So you said study, so give us a 31 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:33,600 little bit of background. Yeah, on thanks for asking 32 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,520 engagement in this topic. Yes. 33 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:40,120 So the origin for me on all this is about a year and a half ago I 34 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,480 started thinking, you know what, what are some of the 35 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,840 distinctives of what it means to be a Christian today? 36 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,670 And I think that's important for the church that as the church 37 00:01:49,670 --> 00:01:51,950 that should be, we should have thoughts on that not, you know, 38 00:01:52,350 --> 00:01:53,990 comprehensive or perfect ones. But. 39 00:01:54,590 --> 00:01:56,790 And so as I started asking questions, what would be key 40 00:01:56,790 --> 00:01:59,270 conversations that we would be having with new members at our 41 00:01:59,270 --> 00:02:02,390 church or that our current members need to articulate 42 00:02:02,390 --> 00:02:05,750 around? And so over a period of months, 43 00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:09,070 I was thinking about that. Haley and Blake and I've been 44 00:02:09,070 --> 00:02:12,790 teaching some studies downtown, and we come across this book 45 00:02:12,790 --> 00:02:16,670 called The Rise and The Triumph of the Modern Self by Carl 46 00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:19,010 Truman. And he also wrote an abbreviated 47 00:02:19,290 --> 00:02:22,890 version for any normal people that aren't wanting to nerd out 48 00:02:22,890 --> 00:02:25,570 on a really dense book. But some of you need to nerd out 49 00:02:25,570 --> 00:02:27,690 on it called A Strange New World. 50 00:02:28,050 --> 00:02:30,170 That's the abbreviated version of the rise and the traffic mine 51 00:02:30,170 --> 00:02:32,690 itself. And we started reading that over 52 00:02:32,690 --> 00:02:35,050 a handful of months and we thought, I thought, at least 53 00:02:35,050 --> 00:02:37,730 this is it. These are some of the issues 54 00:02:37,730 --> 00:02:42,890 around identity, sexuality, you know, performance, performance, 55 00:02:42,890 --> 00:02:45,570 mentality and a culture that's so oriented around how we 56 00:02:45,570 --> 00:02:50,610 perform ourselves out in public. That really is the counter to 57 00:02:50,610 --> 00:02:54,050 like, what does it mean to be a Christian, to be a creature for 58 00:02:54,050 --> 00:02:56,370 God, to be the center instead of ourselves? 59 00:02:56,370 --> 00:03:00,050 And so over a handful of months, we started writing and thinking 60 00:03:00,050 --> 00:03:02,490 and putting together a study for the members of our downtown 61 00:03:02,490 --> 00:03:04,570 campus. And so this past summer, that's 62 00:03:04,570 --> 00:03:06,690 what we did. We we did six sessions on it, 63 00:03:06,690 --> 00:03:09,930 and it was a really timely work. It created a lot of resonance. 64 00:03:09,930 --> 00:03:12,430 We had a lot of good discussion. So, Haley, how did you get 65 00:03:12,430 --> 00:03:15,990 involved in this group with Blake in Schofield? 66 00:03:16,070 --> 00:03:18,270 That's a unique couple guys right there. 67 00:03:18,870 --> 00:03:20,230 We really didn't give her a choice. 68 00:03:20,270 --> 00:03:23,630 Yeah. So I've been going to downtown 69 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:26,390 for seven years, which is the extent of my time in Greenville. 70 00:03:26,390 --> 00:03:28,550 So I feel like I've really kind of grown up as an adult 71 00:03:28,750 --> 00:03:31,310 downtown, which has been fun, but since. 72 00:03:31,740 --> 00:03:34,060 Since I remember, as long as I can remember, I've loved to 73 00:03:34,060 --> 00:03:36,660 write. And so even when I was younger 74 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:39,180 that was an outlet that I loved. I'm a big journal or so 75 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:41,460 interacting with the Lord through words was something that 76 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:46,420 was comfortable to me and I think helped me learn and then 77 00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:48,820 kind of reflect back what I had been learning. 78 00:03:48,820 --> 00:03:53,380 So over the my time at downtown, I've I've written for Grace in a 79 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:57,060 variety of ways and loved that and hopefully it's been helpful. 80 00:03:57,590 --> 00:04:00,230 And then as I've served in different areas, that's lended 81 00:04:00,230 --> 00:04:02,550 itself to an opportunity to teach so. 82 00:04:02,790 --> 00:04:04,950 Because you've worked with our high school students quite a 83 00:04:04,950 --> 00:04:06,550 bit. Yes, I served in Forge and 84 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:11,150 Infusion over my time downtown and last summer we did a study 85 00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:14,470 in the book of Ephesians and that was my first exposure to 86 00:04:14,590 --> 00:04:17,709 teaching anything in a smaller study studying. 87 00:04:17,750 --> 00:04:20,630 And so it was so fun. We had a great time and. 88 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:22,830 What do you do when you're not volunteering? 89 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,120 Relentless hours at her downtown campus. 90 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,640 Not that many with her spare time. 91 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,320 Yeah, that's right. Good job. 92 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,760 I work for Brio Primary Care, so I'm the manager of operations 93 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,680 there. Not medical at all, but landed 94 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,640 in healthcare. I love it. 95 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,240 It's a wonderful company. I love business. 96 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,320 I do see business as a form of ministry, which has been such a 97 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,120 privilege to be at a company that feels the same way. 98 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,310 So I've loved having that as my. Day job. 99 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:52,390 Yeah, and a future podcast episode on how business is 100 00:04:52,390 --> 00:04:54,390 ministry. So we're working, we're working 101 00:04:54,390 --> 00:04:57,350 on that. Well, tell us how, what's what's 102 00:04:57,350 --> 00:04:59,350 your connection to this? Then study. 103 00:04:59,510 --> 00:05:03,990 Yeah, Cisco Field introduced us to this book last fall, so fall 104 00:05:03,990 --> 00:05:05,990 of 2022. We started reading together and 105 00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:08,550 The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, and I told them I 106 00:05:08,550 --> 00:05:10,950 probably would not have finished it had we not been reading it 107 00:05:10,950 --> 00:05:13,150 together. It is a dense book, but it was 108 00:05:13,150 --> 00:05:16,000 so good and it really. It changed my perspective on a 109 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,160 lot of things I'd say. First of all, it did. 110 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,200 It gave me some compassion for people that I that I may not 111 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,920 have felt compassionate towards without reading the book. 112 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,840 I think people who disagree with me on things that feel very 113 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:32,840 fundamental, I think I I other them in a lot of ways. 114 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:35,680 And the way that this book laid out just a cultural and 115 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,000 historical progression of our thinking helped me understand 116 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,440 how we have arrived at really a lot of different conclusions in 117 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,560 a way that I think will make me. Better and more articulate and 118 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,280 and probably more respectful in conversations down the road. 119 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:52,160 So can't speak highly enough of the book it was it was great for 120 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,920 me But in terms of emotional connection to the study too as 121 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,880 we were kind of developing it through the spring. 122 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,800 I was excited already and I think we could tell that it was 123 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,960 going to be relevant and hopefully would resonate with 124 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,600 people downtown. But one of the things that I. 125 00:06:07,390 --> 00:06:10,110 I've just grown, I think, an understanding with my even my 126 00:06:10,110 --> 00:06:12,510 own relationship with the Lord over the past couple of years. 127 00:06:12,510 --> 00:06:15,390 It's just kind of having an image to hold on to, whether I'm 128 00:06:15,390 --> 00:06:18,590 learning things personally or trying to communicate things to 129 00:06:18,590 --> 00:06:21,710 a larger audience. And so as we were preparing, 130 00:06:21,710 --> 00:06:24,510 particularly for the first session, I was really praying 131 00:06:24,510 --> 00:06:27,190 for an image. We landed on a couple last 132 00:06:27,190 --> 00:06:29,190 summer as we were working through Ephesians that were 133 00:06:29,190 --> 00:06:32,990 really helpful that I, I knew, connected with me, but I didn't 134 00:06:32,990 --> 00:06:35,230 expect people to communicate back to us. 135 00:06:35,230 --> 00:06:38,310 And they did. So I think that that kind of 136 00:06:38,670 --> 00:06:41,070 solidified in my mind the importance of having that as a 137 00:06:41,070 --> 00:06:43,630 part of your communication because I'm I can tend to be a 138 00:06:43,630 --> 00:06:45,350 little logical and academic sometimes. 139 00:06:45,350 --> 00:06:48,990 So it's helpful to remember that things land with people and and 140 00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:51,430 they resonate different ways. So was praying for an image as 141 00:06:51,430 --> 00:06:55,790 we were preparing and as I was thinking and and working on 142 00:06:55,790 --> 00:06:59,030 particularly talk one, I really feel like I'm going to have to 143 00:06:59,030 --> 00:07:01,110 credit the Holy Spirit because there was no other reason this 144 00:07:01,110 --> 00:07:03,430 would have come to my mind but as I was thinking about. 145 00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:07,820 The idea of being self-made and how convincing it sounds, it was 146 00:07:07,940 --> 00:07:10,940 becoming more and more important to me as we prepared to share 147 00:07:11,260 --> 00:07:14,420 that we communicated well that this is not a very clear 148 00:07:14,420 --> 00:07:16,260 dichotomy. This is not black and white 149 00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:18,620 where you see the things that are of Jesus and you see the 150 00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:20,820 things that are anti Jesus and it's very clear to you. 151 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:23,980 It's going to feel blurry, it's going to feel intertwined 152 00:07:23,980 --> 00:07:27,100 because being self-made feels really good and it sounds really 153 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:28,780 good. And so as I was thinking through 154 00:07:28,780 --> 00:07:30,500 that and some verses at Schofield head. 155 00:07:30,990 --> 00:07:33,950 Given us the think through I just I thought of the myth of 156 00:07:33,950 --> 00:07:36,750 the Sirens. I took Latin and Greek growing 157 00:07:36,750 --> 00:07:39,750 up so I have more myths in my mind probably than I should. 158 00:07:39,750 --> 00:07:42,790 But as and I go to Google and I'm starting to refresh my 159 00:07:42,790 --> 00:07:45,670 memory on on the image of the Sirens and that myth. 160 00:07:45,990 --> 00:07:49,990 The Sirens were these mythic figures who were very appealing, 161 00:07:49,990 --> 00:07:53,430 very seductive, very attractive, and they lived on an island. 162 00:07:53,470 --> 00:07:56,870 And as sailors would sail by, the Sirens would sing a song, 163 00:07:56,990 --> 00:08:00,310 and the song was irresistible, so sailors, they heard it. 164 00:08:00,890 --> 00:08:02,930 They would steer their ships in the direction of the song. 165 00:08:02,930 --> 00:08:05,250 They would crash on the island. The sirens would ultimately sing 166 00:08:05,250 --> 00:08:06,650 them to death. They would never escape. 167 00:08:07,490 --> 00:08:09,370 It was irresistible. And that that was the thing that 168 00:08:09,370 --> 00:08:11,210 kept me coming back to the idea of Selfmade. 169 00:08:11,210 --> 00:08:13,930 But as I was reading, and again, we have to credit the way the 170 00:08:13,930 --> 00:08:18,010 Holy Spirit uses the Internet. But I was looking through just 171 00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:20,610 different mythological figures, interactions with the sirens, 172 00:08:21,250 --> 00:08:23,810 and there were two stories that stuck out and what I was reading 173 00:08:24,370 --> 00:08:27,650 of the characters that survived sailing by the sirens. 174 00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:30,290 And one of them was Odysseus, One of them was Orpheus. 175 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:33,510 And as Odysseus, as the story goes, as he's on his grand 176 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:37,630 journey and Homer's Odyssey, he is coming up on the sirens and 177 00:08:37,630 --> 00:08:39,750 it seems to be that he was competitive and he was 178 00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:43,390 determined to beat them. And so he told his crew, he's 179 00:08:43,390 --> 00:08:46,430 like, OK, as we approach them, I I want y'all to stuff your ears 180 00:08:46,430 --> 00:08:49,350 with beeswax because if you hear this song, we're going. 181 00:08:49,830 --> 00:08:53,910 So he had them do that, but he wanted to be competitive. 182 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:55,590 He wanted to hear the song and still win. 183 00:08:56,050 --> 00:09:00,410 And so he told his crew to leave his ears unplugged so that he 184 00:09:00,410 --> 00:09:02,970 could hear the song, but to tie him to the mast of the ship. 185 00:09:03,450 --> 00:09:06,690 And as they approached the song, he said, even if I beg you, as 186 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:09,090 we're getting closer to this island, if I hear that song and 187 00:09:09,090 --> 00:09:13,170 I beg you to let me go to steer the ship that way, I want you to 188 00:09:13,170 --> 00:09:15,450 tie me tighter. So we had Odysseus. 189 00:09:15,450 --> 00:09:19,530 And then, as I'm skimming later down the article, Orpheus was 190 00:09:19,530 --> 00:09:22,650 this other mythological figure who was. 191 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,560 On a ship with a group of people called the Argonauts. 192 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:28,800 And as they were sailing, Orifice was a defined poet. 193 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,240 And so as they approached the song, the Argonauts, you know, 194 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,840 of course, I'm sure they're nervous. 195 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,680 They're they're preparing to die because no one can resist the 196 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:40,440 sirens, but because they had Orpheus on board, it goes that. 197 00:09:40,850 --> 00:09:43,370 They heard the song of the sirens and Orpheus played on his 198 00:09:43,370 --> 00:09:45,890 instrument, song that was louder and more beautiful than the song 199 00:09:45,890 --> 00:09:48,410 of the sirens. And as I was reading that night, 200 00:09:48,410 --> 00:09:50,450 truly I felt like the Lord put in my mind. 201 00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:52,530 Tie yourself to the mass and sing a better song. 202 00:09:53,290 --> 00:09:58,090 And that immediately, I mean, I was crying in my apartment, just 203 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:00,530 getting ready for the summer and praying that the Lord would make 204 00:10:00,530 --> 00:10:04,290 those things true for us. That as we hear the song of 205 00:10:04,290 --> 00:10:07,130 self-made that is truly intended to sing us to death. 206 00:10:07,630 --> 00:10:09,870 That we would take those two strategies, you know, as 207 00:10:09,870 --> 00:10:11,870 fictional or whatever they may be. 208 00:10:11,870 --> 00:10:15,350 That the image resonates. And it works because the only 209 00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:17,870 way that I think we're going to survive this is that we tie 210 00:10:17,870 --> 00:10:20,990 ourself to something like a mass that is stronger and more true 211 00:10:20,990 --> 00:10:24,070 and more real than we are, and that our lives sing a better 212 00:10:24,070 --> 00:10:26,590 song because the song of self-made, it's a good one. 213 00:10:26,590 --> 00:10:29,750 I mean, it makes you want to follow it and it makes you want 214 00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:31,790 to go that direction because it feels good. 215 00:10:31,790 --> 00:10:34,080 It satisfies. Desires of our hearts. 216 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,040 I mean, we want to be selfcreated, we want to exercise 217 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,640 our autonomy. But if our lives don't sing a 218 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,360 better song to a culture and a church that might want to go 219 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,120 that direction, and I don't think we have a chance of 220 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,520 surviving it. So that will stick with me for a 221 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,920 long time. That kind of proved to be our 222 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,280 image for the summer and we explored that in a lot of 223 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,520 different ways as we went through our six weeks. 224 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,680 So tie yourself to the mast and sing a better song. 225 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,920 So as we think about the dangers. 226 00:11:01,550 --> 00:11:03,230 But then we think about the deception. 227 00:11:03,470 --> 00:11:05,030 OK, let's begin to pull that apart. 228 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:09,030 What is self-made look like and what are what are these? 229 00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:11,470 Let's talk about these songs. Let's talk about the songs that 230 00:11:11,870 --> 00:11:14,510 are really like lullabies. They're so beautiful and they 231 00:11:14,510 --> 00:11:19,550 just smooth you well and the the biblical sourcing for that that 232 00:11:19,550 --> 00:11:23,590 I think of is Ephesians Chapter 4 where it talks about this need 233 00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:26,310 we have for the church to be built up by the leaders of the 234 00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:28,430 church so the church can do the work of Christ. 235 00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:31,360 And it says then as what happens as each part of the body's 236 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,240 doing, the parts that it's called to do, will no longer be 237 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,160 tossed back and forth by every wind and wave of new teaching 238 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,960 and lies that are so clever that they sound like the truth. 239 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,040 So you have these lies that are so clever that they're not 240 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,880 obviously lies. They're actually partial truths 241 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,240 have truths that lure us away from God and to trusting 242 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,560 ourselves. And the contrast is the church 243 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,240 should be instead speaking the truth and love and being built 244 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:58,920 up in every way more and more like Christ. 245 00:11:59,770 --> 00:12:02,770 And so I just want to mention that passage because I think 246 00:12:03,010 --> 00:12:06,290 it's the same image of these lies that are so clever that 247 00:12:06,290 --> 00:12:11,170 they're they sound like truth. When I think about the the 248 00:12:11,170 --> 00:12:13,250 different ways that that looks, I think about a conversation 249 00:12:13,250 --> 00:12:15,890 that I had with a dad, this was probably four years ago who 250 00:12:15,890 --> 00:12:19,170 called me because his, his daughter, he'd found out on her 251 00:12:19,410 --> 00:12:22,650 device, had a secret app that he didn't know was there. 252 00:12:22,890 --> 00:12:24,890 She was using it for communication with her friends, 253 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,400 and he found on there that she was expressing questions about 254 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,280 her sexuality, questions about her gender. 255 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,560 And he had heard me talk on a couple topics like that. 256 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,720 And so he called me and he was in a panic and understandably 257 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:38,320 so. As a dad. 258 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,120 It's scary and you're, you're, you love your daughter, you're 259 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,160 scared. And I've never forget saying, 260 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,560 you know, I just have no idea how to relate with her on this 261 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,720 issue. And I think God gave me the 262 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,960 grace just to pause him right there and say, hey, actually, 263 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,280 that's not true, I said. Because what you're watching her 264 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,480 do is struggle to believe that God is God and that God is good. 265 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,360 And so she's choosing to make herself. 266 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,560 She's choosing to go her own way and find identity, find 267 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,120 satisfaction. And by the way, that's exactly 268 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,040 what you struggle with every day. 269 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,280 Sure, you might not pick gender or sexuality. 270 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,440 You might pick your career or your own form of sexual, you 271 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:16,960 know, struggles could apply to this. 272 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,760 But that's the thing we try to make clear with our members 273 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,620 downtown is this is not about us trying to understand some 274 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:26,740 brokenness out there. We all are infected with this 275 00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:29,540 core temptation to rely on ourselves, to trust ourselves, 276 00:13:29,540 --> 00:13:32,260 to define ourselves, to determine our own worth. 277 00:13:32,940 --> 00:13:36,220 And that's really what it means to be selfmade. 278 00:13:36,220 --> 00:13:39,020 And so one of the things we're trying to do is get in tune with 279 00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:41,980 that reality, not so that we can point out somewhere else and 280 00:13:41,980 --> 00:13:44,780 judge somebody whose expression looks different than ours, but 281 00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:46,660 resonate with that and say, no, actually, I got to believe that 282 00:13:46,660 --> 00:13:49,620 God is God, God is good. And it's actually good news that 283 00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:52,870 I don't have to be. I don't have to be. 284 00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:56,630 I can receive the reality of my creatureliness and trust him 285 00:13:56,630 --> 00:13:59,710 instead. So one of the things that the 286 00:13:59,710 --> 00:14:03,470 book introduces this topic with, that we read this, this rise and 287 00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:05,710 triumph among ourselves, is that it starts with the reality that 288 00:14:05,710 --> 00:14:09,950 now, in our society, in today's world, when someone hears the 289 00:14:09,950 --> 00:14:14,710 phrase I am a man trapped in a woman's body, we all know what 290 00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:16,990 we're talking about. That's not something that's 291 00:14:16,990 --> 00:14:20,090 unfamiliar. And intuitively we know that in 292 00:14:20,290 --> 00:14:21,810 front of someone else. That's something that we should 293 00:14:21,810 --> 00:14:24,930 look to be sensitive to, and affirm and even celebrate. 294 00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:27,650 So part of what the book's trying to help us understand is 295 00:14:27,650 --> 00:14:31,050 how did we get to a place in our thinking as a culture where 296 00:14:31,050 --> 00:14:34,690 that's the intuitive response and that's the concept that the 297 00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:37,490 book calls the social imaginary. These are not things that we're 298 00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:41,170 all, you know, arguing over, but they're intuitions that come 299 00:14:41,170 --> 00:14:44,870 from values in our culture that we've all adopted, and they're 300 00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:46,630 actually informing the way that we think and feel. 301 00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:49,470 And I think I would say is this is that the church has not been 302 00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:53,790 immune to this. The core inside pieces that 303 00:14:53,790 --> 00:14:57,070 contribute to some of these responses are actually the same. 304 00:14:57,230 --> 00:14:58,430 Yeah, talk a little bit more about that. 305 00:14:58,430 --> 00:15:01,110 Where do you see those and how do you see those fleshing out? 306 00:15:01,830 --> 00:15:03,150 Yeah. So I think one of the topics 307 00:15:03,150 --> 00:15:07,230 that we talk about in the series is this idea of main character 308 00:15:07,310 --> 00:15:09,630 syndrome. So it's a term that the culture 309 00:15:09,630 --> 00:15:13,030 is we've created as a culture, and it comes from the idea of 310 00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:15,910 actually walking down the street, like think a big urban 311 00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:18,070 center, you're wearing your air pods and your favorite song 312 00:15:18,070 --> 00:15:20,350 comes on. And main character syndrome 313 00:15:20,350 --> 00:15:23,470 means that when that song comes on in your ears, all of a sudden 314 00:15:23,510 --> 00:15:26,070 the streets around you have been transformed into a movie set. 315 00:15:26,070 --> 00:15:28,830 And this is your scene in the movie about you. 316 00:15:29,670 --> 00:15:31,750 And so now I'm walking the street, right. 317 00:15:31,750 --> 00:15:33,790 And this. And now what is everybody around 318 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:37,310 me become everybody around me is the supporting cast, right. 319 00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:40,560 And so the idea is that really, what if we actually are kind of 320 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,920 living our whole lives that way, whether it's social media, 321 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:45,960 whether it's what we are expecting out of work, whether 322 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,960 it's what we're expecting out of our marriages, out of our kids? 323 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,360 What if we're viewing life as a place where we're supposed to 324 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,440 perform ourselves out in public so that we can get affirmation 325 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,400 and attention And you go, yeah, that that sounds possible. 326 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,760 That might be mean, you know. Yeah. 327 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,720 So then it would reason that when we come to the scriptures, 328 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,440 you don't turn that off. Right. 329 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,240 You just take the scriptures and you apply it through those same 330 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,040 lenses and then you begin to read the scriptures thinking 331 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,880 that God is talking just to me and He wants my best life Now. 332 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,400 I mean, I recognize that there's some areas of my life that are 333 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,960 broken and messed up, but but if I could just have a better 334 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,320 version of Scott, better version of Haley of Chris Schofield, if 335 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,440 I could just if God could help me have a better version of 336 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,290 myself then. We'd be better off. 337 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:37,490 And that must be what God's trying must be. 338 00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:40,250 The point of all this. And instead of saying actually 339 00:16:40,610 --> 00:16:43,930 the point of all this is that there is a God and I'm not him, 340 00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:46,610 and he's amazing and he's inviting me to be caught up and 341 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:49,650 not my story, but his story and I do have a meaningful role to 342 00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:51,850 play. There's significance, right? 343 00:16:51,850 --> 00:16:53,170 There's dignity. There's value. 344 00:16:53,170 --> 00:16:56,170 Those are not bad things. But when we try to get those out 345 00:16:56,170 --> 00:16:58,810 of making ourselves the center, think about the consequences of 346 00:16:58,810 --> 00:17:00,530 that. If we live in a main character 347 00:17:00,530 --> 00:17:01,570 culture, you know what else we live in. 348 00:17:01,570 --> 00:17:04,270 We live in an incredibly anxious culture, right. 349 00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:06,790 Because when life is a big performance and I'm supposed to, 350 00:17:07,109 --> 00:17:11,310 you know, do tricks with how good I am or, you know, at how I 351 00:17:11,310 --> 00:17:14,349 look here and there, well, that's a lot of pressure to 352 00:17:14,349 --> 00:17:17,150 sustain your own significance. What if your significance isn't 353 00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:20,750 dependent on your performance? That'd be actually maybe gospel. 354 00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:23,790 And and we go into the scriptures and we read and we 355 00:17:23,910 --> 00:17:26,270 get lost in who God is and what he's doing. 356 00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:28,630 There is a story that matters. There's value there. 357 00:17:29,070 --> 00:17:32,670 But it is ironic that we would even take the scriptures, take 358 00:17:32,670 --> 00:17:37,800 the church, take God is somehow coop those things into being 359 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,680 about for me. Well, and this really gets to 360 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,320 your point earlier about it's not just black and white good 361 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,280 guys and bad guys that it's really, really commingled. 362 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,480 Just keep keep talking, share what you what you have on your 363 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,440 mind right now. I can see your wheels turning. 364 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,360 They are turning. I think I got increasingly 365 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:59,120 passionate about the idea as we went further and further 366 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,720 throughout the study because I think I. 367 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:08,420 Grew up with this idea that good and evil and truth and lies were 368 00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:11,340 were black and white and they were very easy to distinguish 369 00:18:11,340 --> 00:18:15,460 between and if you were in church and you are faithful to 370 00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:18,780 the scriptures and you were in a consistent walk of prayer with 371 00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:23,060 the Lord that it would be either or it would be very easy to 372 00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:26,420 tell. And as we read and prepared and 373 00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:29,300 moved through the study and and as I've encountered other things 374 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,350 in my life as well. I just don't think that's always 375 00:18:32,350 --> 00:18:35,190 the case. I think the lies sound a lot 376 00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:38,230 like truth a lot of the time, like Ephesians 4 says. 377 00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:42,350 And can we discern by being in scripture, by being in prayer? 378 00:18:42,350 --> 00:18:44,150 Yes, absolutely. But I think we have to 379 00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:47,630 acknowledge that the lies they work because they sound really 380 00:18:47,630 --> 00:18:51,390 good and if the devil has strategies to make the Church 381 00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:54,400 fail. Then he's not going to make them 382 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,320 obvious all the time. He's not going to make them 383 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,040 sound like something you don't want. 384 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:00,920 He's going to make them sound like something you do. 385 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,320 So I felt just more and more burdened for us and for the 386 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,840 people who are studying with us that we would realize how 387 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,760 dangerous this could be because it's everywhere in our culture. 388 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,760 It's it's in the air that we breathe. 389 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,480 It's the water we swim in it. It is a part of kind of our. 390 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,600 Collective subconscious. Now we're not even asking 391 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,280 whether it's true or just assuming that it is. 392 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,440 And so the lies they get really intertwined with things that can 393 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,760 sound really godly. So something to be aware of. 394 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,320 I'd love to give an example if I could. 395 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,960 Yeah. Before you do, because I want to 396 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,240 dig deep into a few different examples, I just want to put a 397 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,640 pin on maybe one of the ways to subtle ways this reaches into 398 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,120 the church is that the way I think about it and I and I think 399 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,720 about it with literally like us in this room. 400 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,240 And how we're trying to minister and serve, Really, that's all 401 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,840 that means, right? The minister means to serve. 402 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,480 Like, are we doing that out of the grace that God has given us, 403 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,200 or are we doing it out of our gifts? 404 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,920 Because if we're doing it out of grace, then our identity is 405 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,000 secure and our dependency is on God to be able to do that. 406 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,800 But if we're doing it just out of gifts, then what? 407 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,520 Are we dependent on? The affirmation of other people. 408 00:20:12,550 --> 00:20:15,790 And then you're no different than the performance mentality 409 00:20:16,030 --> 00:20:17,710 in some ways, the main main character syndrome. 410 00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:21,950 Because I'm only as good as my last sermon, or my last 411 00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:24,750 counseling session or my last podcast, and I need people to 412 00:20:24,750 --> 00:20:28,230 tell me how good I'm doing. Because I'm trusting to my 413 00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:30,630 gifts, because I'm creating myself. 414 00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:32,470 And I don't know if we want to make this whole podcast about 415 00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:34,070 me, Scott and all my struggles, but. 416 00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:37,870 It does sound familiar, and otherwise I think this happens 417 00:20:37,870 --> 00:20:39,830 in the church and in Christianity, and I think the 418 00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:42,070 world knows it. Yeah, and that's by the world. 419 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:44,710 I mean nonbelievers, people that are not that are disillusioned 420 00:20:44,710 --> 00:20:46,870 with church, disillusioned with God. 421 00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:50,910 When we as Christians coap God into just another way for us to 422 00:20:50,910 --> 00:20:53,830 get attention or to self actualize or perform. 423 00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:58,830 It's not attractive, right? And nor is it something that 424 00:20:58,830 --> 00:21:01,030 really different, yeah, than what the world's doing. 425 00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:04,550 Yeah, it just, it's it's just a bunch of rules to get to the 426 00:21:04,550 --> 00:21:06,630 same point. So why would they even bother 427 00:21:06,670 --> 00:21:08,550 with all that? So yeah, tell us, walk us 428 00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:12,170 through some cultural examples that'll really bring this into 429 00:21:12,250 --> 00:21:14,210 into life. So one of the ones that I think 430 00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:17,650 is interesting and I see it with young students in our church, 431 00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:19,730 but I've seen it. I mean, it's all over the place. 432 00:21:19,730 --> 00:21:22,010 It's just what is truth and where does truth come from? 433 00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:26,130 So think about like old school Disney classics like Pocahontas, 434 00:21:26,130 --> 00:21:28,530 which is what the main theme could be, is you just have to 435 00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:31,690 listen to your heart and it's amazing and and there's this 436 00:21:32,130 --> 00:21:34,730 truth there that you know, we have a contents. 437 00:21:34,730 --> 00:21:36,450 We were created with feelings. God feels. 438 00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:41,380 But what happens when our feelings inside become truth? 439 00:21:41,580 --> 00:21:44,020 Like you've heard of the phrase your truth, How does that 440 00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:47,420 interact with the truth? So it's specifically our 441 00:21:47,420 --> 00:21:49,980 feelings. So what's the relationship 442 00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:53,300 between our truth or sorry the truth and our feelings? 443 00:21:53,660 --> 00:21:56,180 And one of the things that we learned about in the book is the 444 00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:57,620 reality that we have gone through. 445 00:21:57,620 --> 00:22:01,060 We've we're now living in what's called an inward turn, meaning 446 00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:03,180 not outward to N word, where when we're looking for truth, we 447 00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:06,360 look inward. It's based on what we feel our 448 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,120 experiences instead of the idea that there's a truth that's true 449 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:14,360 regardless of my feelings, regardless of my situation, that 450 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:16,680 is actually stronger and more sure that I can count on. 451 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,800 And I think that's interesting. I think even as Christians, a 452 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,400 lot of what we expect the experience of God to be is a lot 453 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,720 based on our feelings. And don't get me wrong, feelings 454 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,760 are good, but what role does the scriptures and God speaking 455 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,680 through others and things that are timeless and transcendent? 456 00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:38,520 That aren't new, that are quite old about who God is and what 457 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,720 he's done. How does that actually need to 458 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,760 be determinative for how we're living, where our peace comes 459 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,000 from, how we live our lives, what we make our decisions 460 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,360 around? And so one of the sessions we 461 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,000 actually did with selfmade was this question of the 462 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,080 relationship between our truth and and feelings. 463 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,520 So I mean what would Haley, any thoughts you had from from that 464 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,520 particular session? Yes, I thought it was. 465 00:22:58,860 --> 00:23:02,820 Fun because we we kind of zoned in on John 18, just the section 466 00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:04,820 where Jesus and Pilot are interacting. 467 00:23:04,940 --> 00:23:07,300 And I just thought it was so interesting that what Pilot 468 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:12,340 asked Jesus is what is truth, And it doesn't seem like he 469 00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:15,060 stuck around to hear the answer. I don't want to malign his 470 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:18,860 character centuries later, but he asks what is truth? 471 00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:20,460 And that's the end of the conversation. 472 00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:23,190 So we took some time. And I think are probably 473 00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:27,390 continuing to, as we've we've passed the study, to ask what is 474 00:23:27,390 --> 00:23:30,790 truth and then even ask further, have we ever asked ourselves 475 00:23:30,790 --> 00:23:33,990 what is truth or where does truth come from for us? 476 00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:36,870 Because I think there's a great chance that we have a truth 477 00:23:36,910 --> 00:23:39,950 construct that's developed from probably a lot of different ways 478 00:23:39,950 --> 00:23:42,830 and we've never evaluated, is it solid? 479 00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:45,350 Is it, does it hold up? Does it hold up when my feelings 480 00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:46,630 change? Does it hold up when my 481 00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:49,910 circumstances don't match that? And are we even engaged enough 482 00:23:49,910 --> 00:23:53,990 in our own walk of faith and our own emotions and thoughts to 483 00:23:54,030 --> 00:23:56,390 evaluate whether whether it can hold water? 484 00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:58,790 So we looked at, is truth tradition? 485 00:23:58,790 --> 00:24:01,750 Is that what we base, what we think is real on what we've 486 00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:05,430 always heard, what we've seen practiced is truth, emotion, And 487 00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:07,390 where does it come from, and have we ever asked? 488 00:24:07,390 --> 00:24:11,510 We looked at Isaiah 44, which is one of my favorites right now. 489 00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:15,910 But there's this beautiful, just kind of poetic prophecy as 490 00:24:15,910 --> 00:24:17,590 Isaiah is writing to the people and. 491 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,640 He's talking to them about their idolatry and it's language. 492 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,000 I think that can feel really outdated when you just read it 493 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,640 at first glance, because it talks a lot about wood and fire 494 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,800 and farming and things that are probably a little more removed 495 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,480 from us. But what he's basically 496 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,520 describing as he's trying to call the people back to the Lord 497 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,000 is he's saying you've taken a gift from the Lord. 498 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,240 In this case it's wood. You have used half of your 499 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,640 supply of wood to. Make fire and sustain your life 500 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,080 and make sure you have food and you've taken the other half of 501 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,040 your wood and you've built a God and you're bowing down to it. 502 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,560 And at the end of that section in verse 20 by the 44, he says 503 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,560 this person that he's talking about using kind of as an image 504 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,280 for the people, never stops to ask themself is the idol I'm 505 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,720 holding in my handle lie. And so we've used that as kind 506 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,810 of a theme for. The study this summer and moving 507 00:25:08,810 --> 00:25:11,530 forward to, Is the idol that we're holding in our hand a lie? 508 00:25:11,530 --> 00:25:14,370 And have we ever stopped to ask and do we care where the answer 509 00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:16,370 is? Because there's a chance that 510 00:25:16,930 --> 00:25:20,970 the idol of self-made this song that we're hearing that we might 511 00:25:20,970 --> 00:25:25,850 be buying into it, may it may actually be an idol for us. 512 00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:27,610 And is there a chance it's a lie? 513 00:25:27,610 --> 00:25:31,370 And have we ever asked? There's a lot of attention now 514 00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:34,930 around just that concept of deconstruction, right? 515 00:25:34,930 --> 00:25:36,930 People seem to be really freaked out that everybody's 516 00:25:36,930 --> 00:25:40,210 deconstructing their faith in all these kids that grew up in 517 00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:43,370 the church and did great things and etcetera, etcetera. 518 00:25:43,810 --> 00:25:47,250 But it just strikes me, I was thinking about this and then 519 00:25:47,250 --> 00:25:51,850 listening to you when you talk about having a a construct that 520 00:25:51,850 --> 00:25:56,370 wasn't really thoughtfully put together in the 1st place, that 521 00:25:56,530 --> 00:26:00,890 may not even be real. So then deconstruction might not 522 00:26:00,890 --> 00:26:03,530 be a bad thing if you have to tear it down to build up the 523 00:26:03,530 --> 00:26:05,170 real thing. Yeah. 524 00:26:05,370 --> 00:26:10,170 To to sing that better song. So let's let's talk about how 525 00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:12,690 how do we hear, how do we hear that better song. 526 00:26:12,690 --> 00:26:16,930 What are we going to do to help lead our church to to listen 527 00:26:16,930 --> 00:26:19,210 well for that better song. So we've got we we've got to 528 00:26:19,610 --> 00:26:22,050 know what we're what the danger is. 529 00:26:22,530 --> 00:26:24,570 You know what the sirens, what they sound like. 530 00:26:24,970 --> 00:26:27,130 But then, you know, how do we sing a better song? 531 00:26:27,290 --> 00:26:30,170 Yeah, one of the things we did with each session is we would 532 00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:32,330 take things like so we know we just talked about the 533 00:26:32,450 --> 00:26:34,210 relationship between truth and feelings. 534 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,040 Or main character syndrome. Other topics were the 535 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,760 relationship between love and affirmation. 536 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,680 What is love if not affirmation? You know, we talked about sex 537 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,280 and the tide that our culture's made between sex and happiness. 538 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,760 And what we try to do is every time and say there is truth 539 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,720 here. Some of the messages, like like 540 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,840 we said, these are lies that are so clever, they sound like the 541 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,240 truth. Because there's there's truth 542 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,040 here, right? Sex is a big deal. 543 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,240 God created it and it is. It is made for happiness. 544 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,440 There's there's truth there. Feelings are good. 545 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,020 Affirmation is a need. But what? 546 00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:05,780 How is that actually just a half truth? 547 00:27:05,780 --> 00:27:07,980 And what is the God? We called it the God word 548 00:27:08,420 --> 00:27:11,620 alternative or the God word solution that meets this need. 549 00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:14,620 So I think part of it, Scott, answer your question is we have 550 00:27:14,620 --> 00:27:17,140 to validate that feelings are a real part of when we speak 551 00:27:17,140 --> 00:27:19,380 human. But they're not the only way to 552 00:27:19,380 --> 00:27:22,300 find truth, and they can't leave all the time. 553 00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:24,900 Say that again. So feelings are a real part of 554 00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:28,260 being human, but they're not the only way to find truth, and they 555 00:27:28,260 --> 00:27:30,300 can't always be determinative for our lives. 556 00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:33,710 So I think. And that just takes repetition 557 00:27:33,710 --> 00:27:35,990 and experience. So where is truth outside of me? 558 00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:39,190 The scriptures, right. God's people speaking into my 559 00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:42,310 life, the Holy Spirit working in and through the local church, 560 00:27:42,670 --> 00:27:46,790 this aggregate experience of hearing God, and then how is 561 00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:49,310 that interacting with my life? And and so we're building a 562 00:27:49,310 --> 00:27:51,590 foundation of learning how to discern truth in our life. 563 00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:52,710 And that has to happen in community. 564 00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:56,430 And that's rigorous and built into it is deconstruction. 565 00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:59,590 It is bringing into question my assumptions. 566 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,920 Not letting you know my feelings be trusted all the time. 567 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,320 And then I was add this key detail, acting on truth, even in 568 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,800 spite of our feelings at times. Because when we do that, we're 569 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,080 we're writing a new like pathway into our brain that says OK, I 570 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,320 have to go elsewhere and make decisions based off something 571 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,360 else besides just me or just my preferences or just what I want 572 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,080 to like. And so when I read something in 573 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,880 the Bible that I don't like. Well then, what do I do with 574 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:27,400 that? Right? 575 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,320 Right. Do I go with what I prefer or 576 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,200 what God says? And I think that is a real 577 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,920 danger because it's what I call insight. 578 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,560 And like, we know that okay, knowledge by itself, it puffs 579 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,320 up, makes us proud. Not a good thing, right? 580 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,680 So everybody wants to avoid knowledge, but what we settle 581 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,960 for is insight. So it's like, that's a good 582 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,440 word. I need to think about that. 583 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,400 That's awesome. I've never heard that before. 584 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,240 I'm gonna write that down. I'm gonna journal that. 585 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,610 But no change is taking place. So it's like I'm going to 586 00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:58,490 challenge my feelings with that thought. 587 00:28:59,330 --> 00:29:03,090 But that's just step one. And what you're saying is you've 588 00:29:03,090 --> 00:29:04,930 got to actually take some action. 589 00:29:05,570 --> 00:29:09,770 And it feels like in that action is where God meets us and begins 590 00:29:09,770 --> 00:29:13,610 to bring life change and and and so you take a step, you take 591 00:29:13,610 --> 00:29:16,490 action and then you evaluate and then you take another step and 592 00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:17,970 then you evaluate and take another step. 593 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:21,490 And if you do that for a long time, then you actually have 594 00:29:21,490 --> 00:29:22,970 life change. You see wisdom. 595 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:24,930 I was going to say another word the Bible uses for that is 596 00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:25,890 wisdom. Yeah, wisdom. 597 00:29:26,090 --> 00:29:28,370 Difference between insight and wisdom and knowledge might be 598 00:29:28,370 --> 00:29:31,370 good, but until it's applied, that's exactly right. 599 00:29:31,370 --> 00:29:34,850 Whereas you know, so knowledge applied over time or insight 600 00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:38,290 utilized or you know insight applied is what we're going for. 601 00:29:38,450 --> 00:29:41,330 And it's worth saying on a podcast, because in a podcast 602 00:29:41,330 --> 00:29:45,130 culture, insight might feel like the, you know, the end goal, the 603 00:29:45,170 --> 00:29:46,010 end goal. That's right. 604 00:29:46,130 --> 00:29:47,130 And it's not. Yeah. 605 00:29:47,130 --> 00:29:49,890 And Chris is so good at every time we end one of these things, 606 00:29:49,890 --> 00:29:53,710 he's like, hey, hopefully what we said was helpful, but you got 607 00:29:53,710 --> 00:29:56,310 to do this with other people. And I'm, I'm kind of butchering 608 00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:57,910 what you say and you'll say it here in a little bit. 609 00:29:57,910 --> 00:30:01,550 But I would love to hear. Haley, you talk about 610 00:30:02,110 --> 00:30:04,310 compassion. You mentioned that earlier in 611 00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:06,630 your intro. You said that you have become a 612 00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:09,590 more compassionate person through this study. 613 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:15,030 Tell us a little bit about that. I think and I'll just expand on 614 00:30:15,030 --> 00:30:16,750 what I mentioned earlier I think. 615 00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:20,790 As we were reading, and again, I can't recommend the book enough. 616 00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:25,950 It's a beautiful summary of a lot of philosophy and history 617 00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:29,790 and art and current events and politics, and it kind of makes 618 00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:33,710 the case for we were always headed in this direction. 619 00:30:33,710 --> 00:30:37,390 So the idea of selfcreation, it might feel shocking to us and it 620 00:30:37,390 --> 00:30:40,310 might feel new and it might feel like, how are we even having 621 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:43,210 these discussions? But if you walk back hundreds of 622 00:30:43,210 --> 00:30:46,170 years of history, we were pushing in this direction the 623 00:30:46,170 --> 00:30:50,090 whole time, and this is just the logical conclusion of our 624 00:30:50,090 --> 00:30:53,330 centuries of thought. So the Internet may have sped it 625 00:30:53,330 --> 00:30:57,090 up a little bit, but really this is not that shocking. 626 00:30:57,090 --> 00:31:01,890 And I think understanding that on everything from the way we 627 00:31:01,890 --> 00:31:04,370 think about careers to the way we think about. 628 00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:07,990 Communities and our interdependence, or lack 629 00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:11,830 thereof, the way we think about sex, gender, church, 630 00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:17,310 institutions at large, all of that makes a lot of sense when 631 00:31:17,630 --> 00:31:20,910 you just follow the history and you follow the logic. 632 00:31:20,910 --> 00:31:26,430 And if you take out God or the truth of the Bible, then it's 633 00:31:26,430 --> 00:31:29,110 very reasonable, and I think I had. 634 00:31:29,620 --> 00:31:33,500 Thought that people who came to different conclusions than I had 635 00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:38,500 on any of those given issues that it didn't make sense to me 636 00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:41,260 because I couldn't understand how they got there. 637 00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:45,420 And now having read this and studied some of these ideas, I 638 00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:48,660 may still disagree because my truth comes from a different 639 00:31:48,660 --> 00:31:52,940 place. But I understand how they got 640 00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:57,420 there, even if we collectively as a society can't verbalize how 641 00:31:57,420 --> 00:31:58,820 we got here. That's why I think. 642 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,600 Beautiful thing that we have authors and thinkers like this 643 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,320 to help guide us there, but it does make sense. 644 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,160 It is reasonable when you walk through all the changes and the 645 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,360 turns and the thinking and the principles that we valued over 646 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:13,960 time. We were going to end up here at 647 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,280 some point. So it does make a lot of sense. 648 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,720 And is there a conversation around being made in God's 649 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,880 image? And so we're we're trying to 650 00:32:25,170 --> 00:32:28,290 find the same things in life. Like we we we all long for 651 00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:31,650 significance, we long for security, we long for joy. 652 00:32:31,650 --> 00:32:35,530 We long for happiness. And and so, like, we're we're 653 00:32:35,530 --> 00:32:38,490 all the same because we're all created in God's image, the bear 654 00:32:38,490 --> 00:32:40,050 God's image. Like, I like to talk about 655 00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:41,850 generosity. Like we're all created to be 656 00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:43,690 generous people. Like nobody disagrees with that. 657 00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:46,810 But the question is, is why and how do you get there? 658 00:32:47,210 --> 00:32:51,530 And so, without transcendent truth, without a transcendent 659 00:32:52,090 --> 00:32:55,040 creator, then what do you have? You. 660 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,600 You have yourself. Right. 661 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,080 Well, and one of the arguments that that Carl Truman really 662 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,240 surfaces is that we, you take people that are, you know, like 663 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,600 Frederick Nietzsche, who talks about the reality that if we 664 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,000 kill God, if we live like God's not gone, then you got to go all 665 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,240 the way, Right. And so his whole point is that a 666 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,080 lot of the ways that we've gotten to, to how we're living 667 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,840 and thinking in our society is just a natural conclusion of 668 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,240 saying, well, God's either God or he's not. 669 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,280 And if he's not, then it's totally up to us. 670 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,880 Which you could say, again, it's completely freeing or completely 671 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,440 terrifying. But his point is there's a lot 672 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,960 of modern people that are pretending like you can still 673 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,160 use a God, stamp on life and gut them of really being God 674 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,760 altogether. And so I think some of the 675 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,000 compassion that you're saying, like Haley, is that we all do, 676 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,560 that it's just a matter of degree. 677 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,400 And honestly, if we would have more intellectual integrity, you 678 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600 know, we'd stop faking some of the in between kinds. 679 00:33:52,650 --> 00:33:54,490 And a lot of the people. And that's, I would say, a word 680 00:33:54,490 --> 00:33:57,410 for people in church. Because a lot of times we 681 00:33:57,570 --> 00:34:01,370 accessorize our life with a little God, A little church. 682 00:34:02,210 --> 00:34:04,050 Instead of being like, hey, what? 683 00:34:04,210 --> 00:34:07,930 Because either he's God and he's king and he's everything, or 684 00:34:08,250 --> 00:34:11,210 he's crazy and he's nothing when we're talking about Jesus. 685 00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:15,409 Yeah, and so much, so easy to do here in the South where going to 686 00:34:15,409 --> 00:34:20,270 church is not frowned upon. It's rejoiced in, you know, it's 687 00:34:20,270 --> 00:34:22,590 like, oh, it's cool thing to do. That's a good church. 688 00:34:22,590 --> 00:34:24,310 That's a cool church. There's great people there. 689 00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:28,110 You know, it's fun and and so I think we're inoculated to some 690 00:34:28,110 --> 00:34:32,270 of that thinking just because of the role that church and that 691 00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:34,710 could be religion, could play, could play in our life. 692 00:34:35,310 --> 00:34:38,429 Here's an interesting example that I understand could be 693 00:34:38,429 --> 00:34:40,590 somewhat controversial for somebody, but I don't really 694 00:34:40,590 --> 00:34:42,909 care. So that that one of the things 695 00:34:42,909 --> 00:34:46,300 that we saw is. How common this thinking has 696 00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:50,659 seeped in and is not a political orientation or a or a, you know, 697 00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:52,980 a personality struggle. It's actually a common sickness 698 00:34:52,980 --> 00:34:54,860 that we all have. So you take two different kind 699 00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:58,260 of you could say maybe extremes. So you have like the perspective 700 00:34:58,260 --> 00:35:02,060 that is L, GB, TQ, plus experience, expression, you 701 00:35:02,060 --> 00:35:05,740 know, celebration where you know who I am in my sexuality. 702 00:35:05,740 --> 00:35:07,620 That's that's something that I'm supposed to determine and 703 00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:09,020 perform and express in the world. 704 00:35:09,340 --> 00:35:11,860 And if you're going to actually not be, you know. 705 00:35:12,250 --> 00:35:14,730 Hateful that you're going to love and embrace that With me, 706 00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:17,370 that's one side of the perspective. 707 00:35:17,850 --> 00:35:19,570 On the other side you have someone who's saying, hey, 708 00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:22,970 actually that's that's horrible. And don't tread on me like this 709 00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:29,090 whole idea of this is my world, my land, my rights, my life, 710 00:35:29,410 --> 00:35:31,250 which you could caricaturize, right? 711 00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:33,530 Those are extremes. In some ways you could say, but 712 00:35:33,530 --> 00:35:36,260 as being very different. Very much so. 713 00:35:36,260 --> 00:35:38,620 Opposed to one another. But I think if you peel back 714 00:35:38,620 --> 00:35:40,700 some of the layers, what you really have is something that's 715 00:35:40,860 --> 00:35:45,580 quite in common. And that is, hey, I decide this 716 00:35:45,580 --> 00:35:52,220 is my life, my world. And so get on board and think 717 00:35:52,220 --> 00:35:54,660 about that for a second. How easy that is for us to say 718 00:35:54,660 --> 00:35:57,940 and hear and think about because we're, well, we're American in 719 00:35:57,940 --> 00:36:00,220 that part of the deal. But what if that's not true? 720 00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:01,340 What if your life's not your own? 721 00:36:01,940 --> 00:36:03,700 What if the purpose of your life is not you? 722 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,800 And life itself, the good life doesn't consist of you getting 723 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,680 what you want in your terms. What if there's more life, more 724 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,280 freedom to be found in actually surrendering to a good God and 725 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,440 his purposes for his creation? So I say that because however 726 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,200 that hits you, I don't think that it's unique to certain 727 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,920 camps or personalities or even ages. 728 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,800 I think it's a common sickness that we've all embraced. 729 00:36:28,780 --> 00:36:31,980 It does level the playing field and then you have to go back to 730 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:34,500 maybe the gospel is the third way, maybe it's a different way. 731 00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:39,420 And the idea of it being real simple going back to your what 732 00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:41,300 you were expressing earlier which is just being fully 733 00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:45,180 devoted to God, being all in surrender, loving God, heart, 734 00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:48,780 soul, mind, strength, love your neighbor as yourself, all the 735 00:36:48,780 --> 00:36:51,140 other commandments wrapped up in the those two things. 736 00:36:51,540 --> 00:36:55,640 And it's like, if we could just figure out what that looks like, 737 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,720 so much of everything else would take care of itself. 738 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,720 So maybe that's the song, right? That's the song. 739 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,040 But we say that it becomes very familiar, very Christianese. 740 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,240 But if we could just stop and think, what does it mean to love 741 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:14,520 God with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my strength 742 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,280 and with all my mind and all my mind. 743 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,040 Everything that I have and all my all myself and all my gifts 744 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,240 and everything we would at least have to go through him before we 745 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:29,760 just planted on this idea of I am in a self created world and 746 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,480 it's up to me to determine my destiny. 747 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,160 Yeah, we talked a little bit this summer just about that 748 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,040 idea, that question you asked earlier, what does it mean to 749 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,400 sing a better song? And we didn't get in a ton of 750 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,520 detail about it. I think that's a whole a whole 751 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,270 other summer but. Kind of two thoughts on that and 752 00:37:46,270 --> 00:37:49,550 and Scarefield kept guiding us back to this story and I think 753 00:37:49,550 --> 00:37:52,070 it it's helpful moving forward because it just it gives a 754 00:37:52,070 --> 00:37:53,830 picture of what I think we're going for and that's just the 755 00:37:53,830 --> 00:37:57,950 story of John the Baptist and as you think about think about 756 00:37:57,950 --> 00:38:00,990 significance, dignity, role in the Kingdom and his role was 757 00:38:00,990 --> 00:38:02,590 huge. It was very important. 758 00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:06,950 He was prophesied centuries before he was born, but as he, 759 00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:09,990 you know, comes into his own, he's living out the call of God. 760 00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:14,180 When Jesus arrives, he was fine that his followers left him and 761 00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:17,540 went to Jesus, that he understood his role and that his 762 00:38:17,540 --> 00:38:21,260 goal was to lose followers. He was drawing them to himself 763 00:38:21,260 --> 00:38:23,700 to pass them right along to Jesus when he came and when his 764 00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:26,620 public ministry started. You think about, I think how 765 00:38:26,620 --> 00:38:30,420 he's described in John Three that he took joy in Jesus 766 00:38:30,420 --> 00:38:34,660 success and I've just loved that wording and trying to think 767 00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:36,460 about what is singing a better song. 768 00:38:36,940 --> 00:38:41,700 Is it that I can take joy in Jesus success and that living a 769 00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:44,020 quiet life, That's something else we've been talking about as 770 00:38:44,020 --> 00:38:46,700 well. Whatever that looks like size 771 00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:50,100 scale, where you live, what you do, who you're interacting with. 772 00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:53,300 Can my something I've been thinking about personally as 773 00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,020 well? It can my legacy be lost in the 774 00:38:55,020 --> 00:38:58,820 legacy of Jesus so that whatever is remembered of me is not of 775 00:38:58,820 --> 00:39:01,380 me. It is that people came to Jesus 776 00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:05,230 because they knew me. And to me that is singing a 777 00:39:05,230 --> 00:39:07,110 better song. And it's not necessarily 778 00:39:07,110 --> 00:39:10,350 detailed, it's not prescriptive. But I think we've got to ask, 779 00:39:10,350 --> 00:39:13,270 can we take joy in the success of Jesus? 780 00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:19,590 Even if that doesn't bring credit or desire or success to 781 00:39:19,630 --> 00:39:21,750 us? Can we take joy in his success? 782 00:39:22,190 --> 00:39:24,790 And then the other thing, I think is just worth considering 783 00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:26,310 for us. And it might be just a little 784 00:39:26,310 --> 00:39:28,790 bit of a reversal of thinking. Again, it's not prescriptive, 785 00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:30,870 but. I think we've got to ask when we 786 00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:33,910 ask the question are are we singing a better song? 787 00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:38,390 Do our lives actually reflect what we say we believe, if we 788 00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:41,070 believe that Jesus offers a life that is abundant, that the 789 00:39:41,070 --> 00:39:45,270 spirit is springs of eternal life, that are coming out of us? 790 00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:49,910 Does my life look like that to somebody who is hearing the same 791 00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:52,990 song of selfcreation that I am? And maybe they haven't decided 792 00:39:52,990 --> 00:39:55,400 whether. Jesus is the story that they 793 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,840 want to believe. He's the He's the king that they 794 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,000 want to follow. Does my life make a case for 795 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,600 him? Not that he needs me to prove 796 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,600 his truth or his worth, but if I say I believe this, that his 797 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,920 presence lives inside me, then have I ever even asked myself, 798 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,160 does my life sing the song that he promised? 799 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,200 He said, You know you're going to have a divine presence inside 800 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,000 of you, that you you get to walk in abundance. 801 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,200 You get to walk in freedom. And does my life say that to 802 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,720 somebody who might be looking and you might not have decided 803 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:27,360 what song they want to follow yet? 804 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,880 Well, I love that you share the statement, the story about John 805 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,160 the Baptist, because the famous statement that he shares is what 806 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:35,960 he must increase, I must decrease. 807 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,720 I mean that is just such a simple but profound statement. 808 00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:43,680 No doubt. I think that the fact that, like 809 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,280 she said, he's filled with joy. I just think we're filled with a 810 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,040 lot of things. I don't know if it's joy. 811 00:40:49,830 --> 00:40:51,910 And I think a lot of it's because we are trying to live 812 00:40:51,910 --> 00:40:56,830 like self creators and we're we're, you know, reaping the 813 00:40:56,830 --> 00:40:59,910 benefits of that choice, right, reaping the consequences of 814 00:40:59,910 --> 00:41:01,990 that. And I'll just say for myself, 815 00:41:01,990 --> 00:41:05,390 like learning to turn over the keys to my life to Jesus and 816 00:41:05,390 --> 00:41:08,550 like you said, like stopping the whole performance for 817 00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:13,270 significance and just beginning down that journey, I would think 818 00:41:13,270 --> 00:41:16,230 that would be like a great invitation for all of us. 819 00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:19,040 And I do think John story. You know, and I mean Jesus the 820 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,080 story, right? The one who was enthroned and 821 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,240 was entitled to all glory emptied himself so that he could 822 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:26,440 invite us into this life with him and all those core desires 823 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,040 we have, He's ready to meet them if we'll stop trying to be him. 824 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,920 So I think it's it's a journey we're going to have to keep 825 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,440 thinking about how it applies not just to the world, but like 826 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,510 to us, to our church. Well this has been a great 827 00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:40,390 interview. I've. 828 00:41:40,510 --> 00:41:43,350 I have so many notes here. I mean the big theme that I've 829 00:41:43,350 --> 00:41:45,870 gotten is just like be suspicious of yourself. 830 00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:48,550 I feel like I just need to be suspicious of myself. 831 00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:53,190 Sing a better song, live a quiet life, act in truth despite how 832 00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:55,630 you feel. I I took note of that and then 833 00:41:55,630 --> 00:41:58,790 just take joy in Jesus. So I mean thank you very much. 834 00:41:58,790 --> 00:42:00,750 I feel like this is going to be an episode I'll probably going 835 00:42:00,750 --> 00:42:04,930 to hit replay on a couple times. But we're grateful that you 836 00:42:04,930 --> 00:42:07,690 joined us and we want to thank you for doing that. 837 00:42:07,690 --> 00:42:12,050 And before we end, we, we do want to pray together. 838 00:42:12,050 --> 00:42:15,610 But like Schofield said earlier, acting on truth is important. 839 00:42:15,610 --> 00:42:19,290 So with that being said, listening to a podcast episode, 840 00:42:19,290 --> 00:42:22,170 it can be an individual experience, which we believe is 841 00:42:22,170 --> 00:42:26,050 only enhanced by talking through it and applying it to life. 842 00:42:26,050 --> 00:42:29,170 So and we believe like this happens to me sometimes. 843 00:42:29,170 --> 00:42:31,210 I listen to a podcast and I don't always. 844 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,440 Talk about it with someone. So we want to encourage you to 845 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,760 share this episode with someone, discuss out applies to you, 846 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,280 share any takeaways that they receive you receive, and 847 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,560 approach their feedback with a posture to learn and apply. 848 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,320 And I I think this is a great way for us to move towards this 849 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,160 discipleship issue. So if you have questions you 850 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,600 want access to additional resources, be sure to check out 851 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,760 our podcast page. We'll have Haley and Schofield's 852 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,280 contact information there if you want to connect with them 853 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,730 offline. That we're just so grateful for 854 00:43:02,730 --> 00:43:04,450 you guys and we just want to thank you. 855 00:43:04,450 --> 00:43:08,250 So, Haley, would you just pray for us, close us out, and then 856 00:43:08,250 --> 00:43:11,890 we can wrap this up? Love to Father, thanks so much 857 00:43:11,890 --> 00:43:14,370 for who you are. We just want to worship you and 858 00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:16,410 praise you for the God that you are. 859 00:43:16,410 --> 00:43:19,170 The truth that you have offered us, that's outside of ourselves. 860 00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:22,250 And we're just so honored that you have wanted to partner with 861 00:43:22,290 --> 00:43:25,170 us in your story of redemption, that you could have accomplished 862 00:43:25,170 --> 00:43:27,490 it on your own, but you invited us to be a part of it, or to 863 00:43:27,490 --> 00:43:30,400 pray that we would never take that for granted and that we 864 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,320 would walk in that with zeal and excitement and surrender, 865 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:38,200 knowing that you have given us a place of significance when you 866 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,520 didn't even need us. So, Lord, I pray that as we 867 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,320 think on these things, as we learn more about the darkness 868 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,000 that is specific to our time word, the idea of selfcreation 869 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,240 and how tempting it sounds. I pray that we would find you to 870 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:54,080 be better. That we would believe what you 871 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:55,920 said. That in your presence is 872 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,150 fullness of joy. That we would seek you out and 873 00:43:59,150 --> 00:44:01,510 that we would keep coming back to you even when we don't want 874 00:44:01,510 --> 00:44:03,870 to. That when it doesn't feel like 875 00:44:03,870 --> 00:44:06,710 you're kind or it doesn't feel like you are loving, or that you 876 00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:09,830 are attentive to us. Or that we would have the faith 877 00:44:10,510 --> 00:44:13,550 in the eternal eyes. To come back to you. 878 00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:17,110 To seek your prayer to be a part of your church, and to 879 00:44:17,110 --> 00:44:21,710 ultimately tie ourselves to the mast of of you as our Savior and 880 00:44:21,710 --> 00:44:24,750 to your word as our truth, and to sing a better song. 881 00:44:24,870 --> 00:44:28,640 One that shows that life, abundant, really is available 882 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,760 and only found in you, and that selfcreation won't pay off like 883 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,920 we think it will. Words, I pray you, just give us 884 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,480 grace and strength to do that. You know that we're weak and 885 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,960 that we're just dust. You made us that way. 886 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,200 You know that we're that way, Lord. 887 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,760 So we ask you to strengthen us, to keep us tied to you, that we 888 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,200 would be tethered to you for the rest of our lives, that we've 889 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,800 decided to follow you, and that we're not going to turn back, no 890 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,960 matter how difficult it is or how much we want to go another 891 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,600 way. So, Lord, I just ask you to be 892 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,120 as faithful to us in the future. You have been in the past. 893 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,120 We know you will give us grace to keep seeking you Tuesday. 894 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,640 Amen. Thank you.