1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,280 Let's not be fearful. Let's believe the best about one 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,400 another. Let's love one another, let's 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,800 trust God. Jesus says the Holy Spirit of 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,400 God has send all truth. Let's not compromise the 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,880 scriptures and let's not be worried about having our own 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,600 way. Let's let's just care about what 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,480 God tells us to care about his glory one another and the 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,960 proclamation of the gospel and the demonstration of the gospel 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,880 to a watching world and it and if we'll do that, that's the 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,320 context within which Jesus says the Holy Spirit will guide you. 11 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:43,360 Welcome back to the Grace Church Podcast. 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,720 I am here in studio with Whitney and Bill White, one of our 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,120 teaching pastors, and we have a little bonus First Corinthians 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,240 content for you today. So welcome guys. 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,640 Hey, Scott, good to see you. Good to be here. 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,760 And Bill, before we jump in, it's been a little while since 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,440 you've been on the podcast and you have been spending a lot of 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,560 time in the First Corinthians. So I would love for you to just 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,480 tell us what are you learning through this teaching series. 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,480 I mean, I've had a great time going through it. 21 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:21,040 Honestly, the further I get away from, I don't know what the 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:27,440 right word is, Maybe carrying what other preachers or my 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,680 seminary professors or whatever, I don't know. 24 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,000 You know, when you win this seminary, it's like there are 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,640 these positions and there are these things that are on the 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,000 inside of wherever you come from or on the outside. 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,600 And you're always kind of that that gets in deep when you're 28 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,560 young. And I didn't realize how much of 29 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,760 that was still in me. Because you want to. 30 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:48,320 You really want to do it the right? 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,120 Yeah, that's right. And so I don't know if it's I've 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,080 just gotten old and made peace with the fact that I'm going to 33 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:00,320 be wrong all over the place, or if somehow going through First 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:05,760 Corinthians this time has been profoundly different for me. 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,120 I am open in ways that I have not been before and I don't not 36 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,440 intentionally. So some of that's probably just 37 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,680 season of life that I'm in. And you know what? 38 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,040 I have room to think about and be challenged by. 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,120 But I'm seeing a lot of things in the text that I have not seen 40 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,360 before that I glossed over. And it's been really fruitful 41 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,720 for me. I'm having experiences just as I 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:38,240 sit and listen and am taught. I mean, Matt's sermon last week 43 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,440 was one of the most, I mean, helpful moments for me. 44 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,120 I'm, I'm in a season where I have a lot going on some health 45 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,480 issues and my family on my side and Rachel's family and we're 46 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:56,080 being stretched in some ways and I'm feel my frailty and for some 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,560 reason I just had an encounter with God that was profound and 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:07,040 actionable this week. You know, so things I, I texted 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,480 Matt during the sermon and I was just, I was struggling to find 50 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,240 words. It was after the sermon 51 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,880 actually, but it was actually a part of my worship afterwards. 52 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,160 I just sat down and I just thanked him for how helpful that 53 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:26,280 was for me and made both some confession because and some 54 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,400 movement and a new direction. Rachel and I had great 55 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,920 conversations after that. And it's just been a lot of fun 56 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,480 for me to to be in all of that. And I am learning a ton as I 57 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:44,000 study. So I'm studying with a with a 58 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,640 Methodist scholar who I really respect. 59 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,400 I started studying with him some when I was working through 60 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,960 Revelation. So the way I study, I try to get 61 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,280 outside of what's normal for me because I know what I think, but 62 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,480 why do I need to read something that reinforces what I already 63 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,400 think? And he's probably taught a lot 64 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:05,760 of this before. Yeah, and I've talked a lot of 65 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,280 this before. So I'm like looking for someone 66 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,480 who loves the scriptures, who may not agree with me, who 67 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,040 hopefully doesn't, and who's going to challenge me with some 68 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,240 new frameworks. And so that's been a lot of fun 69 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,200 for me and I don't know what to attribute it with. 70 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,880 And I'm also studying which at GPT now, right? 71 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,240 And so and I've been working for a while. 72 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,200 Bro freaks some of you out. John Byber don't like it. 73 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,440 But I'm just telling you, man, instead of going to the library 74 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,280 and buying books, because I've studied for so long now, I know 75 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:45,600 how to task Chad to go, yeah, pull information and to argue 76 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:51,400 with me, right. And so all of that has been real 77 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,280 helpful for gathering, you know, I have more information. 78 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:58,480 And it's just been, I'm learning a time and I'm encouraged about 79 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,200 where we are as a church and what we're trying to do. 80 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,040 And I feel like we're connected to the mainstream, but I'm also 81 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,800 seeing ways in which we need to move. 82 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,280 And that's been invigorating for me. 83 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:14,880 And I think it's reflected in the teaching that we're having. 84 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,840 Our discussions on the teaching team has been great. 85 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:21,840 I think everybody is really learning and it's, it's a fun 86 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,720 season for me of being able to do all of that. 87 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,560 So. Now it's been really rich. 88 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,400 It's it's been nice to hear different voices as part of the 89 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,520 teaching team. First Corinthians, you kind of 90 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,920 forget when you get away from a book just how how how deep it 91 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,120 is. And that's part of the occasion 92 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:43,840 for this podcast. We're going to get into a 93 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:47,520 section here over the next 4 chapters that has a lot to do 94 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,480 with the Christian worship experience. 95 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,280 And what we wanted to do was just do a little deeper dive, 96 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,200 present some content that you really can't do on a weekend 97 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:59,880 service. And so Bill just finished 98 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,000 teaching the first section of Chapter 11. 99 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,080 So if you haven't listen to that yet, if you weren't in church 100 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,000 this past weekend, I encourage you just to kind of hit the 101 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,360 pause button, go back and listen to that. 102 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,960 And we're going to pick up on that and kind of explore a big 103 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,320 theme that you're going to see over the next few chapters. 104 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,200 And so, yeah, Bill, why don't you tell us really kind of what 105 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,280 you had on your mind when you want to take this idea and kind 106 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,400 of kind of pull it apart. What, what is the big idea that 107 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,040 you're you're ruminating on these days? 108 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,760 So I've been working just personally on the idea of living 109 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,360 within the boundaries of propriety. 110 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:40,920 And it's a word that we don't use very often. 111 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:47,480 And as as a leader, you know, for the last 10 to 15 years, one 112 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:53,120 of one of my struggles, because words come quickly to me. 113 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,480 I am aggressively interested in learning new things. 114 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:06,720 And is, is that I'd, I'd go beyond what is fitting in 115 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,960 certain environments. I don't always consider the 116 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,000 other person as well as I should. 117 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,320 And it's a it's, it's not a most of the time it's not, I don't 118 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:25,160 think it's a big sinful issue. It's because I can be redirected 119 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,560 pretty quickly, but I'm just because I'm chasing down truth, 120 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,120 I'm chasing down information and I'm trying to make progress and, 121 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,680 and, and that causes me to go beyond in different 122 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,920 environments. And so I thought maturity for me 123 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:48,000 will be me being more aware, more restrained, thinking about 124 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,840 the environment that I'm in, the people I'm in that with and not 125 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:58,160 going too far, not pushing it too far and and just being more 126 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,640 considerate. And so I've been working on that 127 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,880 talk to Mike Tribeiro about a years ago and says one of my 128 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,240 things that I've been working on. 129 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:13,080 But then as it's gone along, I'm seeing it more and more in the 130 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,080 scriptures. And so I've been doing work to 131 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,240 come up with a definition for me and operating definition. 132 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,640 And I see it especially when we get into this section and we 133 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,640 have been dealing with it on some of the issues that that 134 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,640 we've been dealing with personally around Christian 135 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,360 liberty, love for others and all. 136 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,480 Strong and weak. That's right, all of those sorts 137 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,559 of things. And but where it really gets 138 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:43,559 clear is when we move into the idea of corporate gathering. 139 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,320 A shared space. That's right, yeah. 140 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,360 And so when, when we come together and, and Paul makes 141 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,840 this argument, and I'll talk about it in the sermon, that 142 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,800 heaven is present in a very real sense. 143 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,400 I mean, Paul says the angels are watching and you need to make 144 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:03,880 decisions when you're in a a gathered assembly of the Saints 145 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,480 to do the will of God, to honor God, to pursue his mission 146 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,040 together corporately. You need to be aware there are 147 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,960 angels there and that needs to in some sense impact how you 148 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,560 behave. And you need to be aware that 149 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:25,240 there are unbelievers who were there and a watching world who 150 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,320 is. So it's not just like the 151 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,360 worship language of we have an audience of one that is the 152 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,280 opposite of what the Bible says about worship. 153 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,040 The Bible says we worship before the nations, we worship with the 154 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,680 weak, we worship with the strong, we worship with the 155 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:44,520 poor, we worship with the rich, we worship with the sick, we 156 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,920 worship with the healthy. And that propriety is an 157 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,680 acknowledgement of all those things. 158 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:57,760 And then I think about what is fitting, what is fitting for how 159 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,960 I speak, but for how I carry myself, for how I dress. 160 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,920 That's a very. Countercultural idea, and it's a 161 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,600 different question than what is permissible, what is OK? 162 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,440 What can I get away with? That's exactly, that's exactly 163 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,880 right. And, and, and that's one of the, 164 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,680 that's the boiled down definition is we don't need to 165 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:20,160 be concerned about what's permissible. 166 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,360 I mean, I was in student ministry. 167 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,680 I talked about this in the sermon and everybody always want 168 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:26,680 to know where's the line? How far is too far in dating, 169 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,920 right? Oh, that's totally the wrong 170 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,840 answer. I got pretty good at at 171 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,480 answering that question because I got asked it so many times 172 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,520 that finally I got to if you intentionally arouse the desire 173 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,320 that you can't righteously satisfy, you have defrauded your 174 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,400 brother or sister. So when somebody asks you how 175 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,800 far is too far and you say that, that kind of shuts them down a 176 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,400 little bit, but but it's just the wrong way to approach it. 177 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:50,960 I'm not trying to get away with something. 178 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,240 I'm not trying to push a boundary. 179 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:59,120 What I'm trying to do is what is the fitting way for me to treat 180 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,400 a brother or sister in this relationship that we have? 181 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,360 And so, you know, the Apostle Paul was concerned about that in 182 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,480 worship. He's very concerned about that. 183 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,640 And and I would say today, what we think of as a worship service 184 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,480 is very different from what they were doing back then. 185 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,160 And they were gathering more than we were gathering. 186 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,640 And so I would just say, let's not just focus on Sunday 187 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,440 worship, but what's thinking about whenever we come together 188 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,120 as the people of God for the purposes of God to do the will 189 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,400 of God, that what does it look like for us and that kind of 190 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:42,000 gathered space to behave properly and with propriety. 191 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:47,120 All right, so let's do this. Let's define it, and then let's 192 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,840 talk about some of the cultural challenges of why this is such a 193 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,240 foreign concept, and then we'll walk through the different parts 194 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,640 of the definition. So give us your best definition 195 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,560 of propriety. OK, so this is my working 196 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:03,200 definition that I've just pulled together from a bunch of 197 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,480 different places. OK, Trademark Bill White right 198 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,800 here. Well, I mean, I don't know about 199 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,120 that, but let's, let's, I don't know how much I want to go on 200 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,440 the hook, but here we go. For us as a church, this is what 201 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,040 I'm thinking about. Propriety is the spirit shaped 202 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,560 discernment of what is fitting in a given moment. 203 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,720 So the Spirit shaped discernment of what is fitting in a given 204 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,840 moment so that our lives visibly honor God. 205 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,680 It's obvious. Build up the church and do not 206 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,400 obscure the gospel before a watching world. 207 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:46,880 So we need the Holy Spirit to give us discernment so that we 208 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,360 will visibly honor God, edify the church, build it up and not 209 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,040 obscure the gospel before a watching world. 210 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,160 And what I like about this definition is it gets us off the 211 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:07,880 idea of, you know, rules. And it puts us in a position 212 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,920 where we have to be responsible to trust God and, and think the 213 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,440 way we've been studying about doing individually, you know, 214 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,040 with regards to meat sacrifice to idols and the applications to 215 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,640 how we live our lives and how we handle our Christian freedoms. 216 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:28,200 You know, is that we, we have to become mature people who can be 217 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,480 led by the Spirit and know in this environment, this might be 218 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,720 fitting, but in this environment, this might not be 219 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,280 fitting. And so it leads us to have this 220 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,840 kind of openness. Because without the Spirit and 221 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,680 without goals that we're aiming for, what we're left is no 222 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:50,680 rules. So just write whatever I want to 223 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,120 do. Yes, self actualization is the 224 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:58,480 tyranny of the self on on the one hand, and so which is what 225 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,720 our culture loves, right is I have personal sovereignty. 226 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,880 So if I decide that this is my identity and then this is who I 227 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,720 am. If you're in my space, then 228 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:14,080 while you're in my space, you have to acknowledge, you know, 229 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,240 by rules essentially about how you're going to talk to me about 230 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,280 there is no objective standard to which we're all being held 231 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,760 to. And so, so it's tyranny of the 232 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,040 actualization of the individual on their terms, which destroys 233 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:35,320 biblical community and destroys real unity because we all have 234 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,720 to play this little game with one another where we humor one 235 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,880 another, but we don't find any real union. 236 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,800 And then on the other side is a more traditional kind of thing 237 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,320 that we associate with a more fundamentalist world view, 238 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,040 right? Which is that we just create all 239 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:58,120 these rules and these standards and we don't have to think about 240 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,360 how to enforce them. They just, we're tyrannized by 241 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,800 these rules and these standards. And then it creates this real 242 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:12,480 dehumanizing effect and it it flattens out how God wants to 243 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,480 work, because God can only work in standards that we created, 244 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,800 which now become an authority above the Scriptures. 245 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,120 So which is the bigger threat now? 246 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,720 Yeah, I mean, that's a difficult thing. 247 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,800 I think a lot of it depends on your context, right? 248 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,400 And I think that's where this language of propriety is so 249 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,400 important. Yeah, but and it is an 250 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,480 interesting that really but on on both sides it's 251 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,160 fundamentalism. Oh, yeah. 252 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,000 It's total. No, Everybody's a fundamentalist 253 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:41,680 right. That's the thing. 254 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,680 That's bizarre. Yeah. 255 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,200 There's either religious fundamentalism or individual 256 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,640 fundamentalism. That's exactly political 257 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,200 fundamentalism. Whatever, when people that just 258 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,840 like making rules because rules are clear, and whether it's the 259 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,040 rules that I've made for myself or it's the rules that I think 260 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,520 that I can pick out a scripture that's more convenient than 261 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,560 having to think for myself. And then the level beyond that 262 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,760 of like, actually having to engage the Spirit and discern 263 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,440 something that's so much harder and Gray than just something 264 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,160 that's black and white. Yeah, I agree. 265 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,320 And I mean, then we then we have a group of people. 266 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,360 I mean, because what this is just, I've been doing this for a 267 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:14,680 minute now. It's one of the good parts about 268 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:20,840 getting older is it's, it's just in my life and over the course 269 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,920 of having been leading groups of people. 270 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,640 I mean, I got my first paycheck, the lead a group of people when 271 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,160 I was 17. That was a bad idea, but it 272 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,120 happened. So that's 40 years now for me 273 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,720 coming up on 41 that I've been getting paid one level or 274 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,680 another to lead a group of people and, and almost all of 275 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,920 that time within the church. And people are just way more 276 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,880 fragile now, more polarized, more threatened by disagreement, 277 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:58,680 more preaching and teaching is more challenging because I the 278 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:04,560 need to demonstrate sensitivity to so many different things. 279 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:05,800 And I'm not even saying all that's wrong. 280 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:11,560 OK, but it's new, it's newer. It is newer and, and I think 281 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,880 some of it is a legitimate correction in our world. 282 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,839 OK. So I, I think we need to be 283 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:23,119 corrected in some ways, but, but it is, but it is challenging and 284 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,560 it's difficult to have civil disagreement and, and, and which 285 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,640 leads to progress and growth, right? 286 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,680 Yeah, it's pretty, it's just hard. 287 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,640 It's hard to get there. So if we jump into back into the 288 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,120 definition, we're talking about spirit shaped discernment of 289 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,400 what is fitting. Fitting is that. 290 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,640 What is appropriate is that is that. 291 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,280 I think appropriate is a good word. 292 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,920 You know, there's a whole range of things who are here that are 293 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,160 here. If you go back and look like Jim 294 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,360 Taylor and I've been talking about this idea. 295 00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:00,240 So his beautiful brain is getting infected with this and 296 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,120 he's like, I have not thought about this that much. 297 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,320 So he's getting ready to do a word study on on the language 298 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,200 that is translated, befitting or fitting. 299 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,320 And if you go to some more wooden English translations of 300 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,640 the New Testament, so there's like a Greek Word family that 301 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,720 connotes that and you can go study that. 302 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,120 And Jim's like, it's everywhere. I'm like, it is everywhere. 303 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,840 And this is what I think is happening culturally, as I think 304 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,360 we so value authenticity and transparency. 305 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,400 And and I know this has been the case for me personally as a Gen. 306 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,680 Xer, All right, so to speak for my generation to not. 307 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:43,080 I got tired of having spiritual leaders who were quote, UN 308 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,480 quote, being nice, but when they came up against something hard 309 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,920 or controversial, they they wouldn't take a hard edge on 310 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,520 Scripture. And as I read Jesus, man, once I 311 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,200 really became a Christian was born again and I started reading 312 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,080 the Bible as a believer for the first time. 313 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,720 I was like, this is all very controversial and and our 314 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,640 leaders are not talking like this in most, most churches. 315 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,880 They would pick certain safe things that they're going to 316 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,240 pound on, which largely had to do with sins they didn't 317 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,080 struggle with, right, Right. Things that were easy to 318 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,800 accomplish. So we'll feel better about 319 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,800 ourselves because we're teetotalers and we don't drink 320 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,400 alcohol. We'll feel better about 321 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,440 ourselves because we don't struggle with same sex 322 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,520 attraction. So we'll beat up on gay people, 323 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,880 right? Because that's something that's 324 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,040 outside of me and as an easy thing. 325 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,680 And then we marginalized all these people who are struggling 326 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,600 with things because the gospel is actually 4. 327 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,320 But we'll do that. But then these really difficult 328 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,240 things that cut us, we want to dress. 329 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,160 And so for me and my generation, I think that's our church is a 330 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,800 little bit of a reaction against that. 331 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,200 So we really value authenticity, transparency. 332 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,880 We're going to have a hard edge. We're not going to take the edge 333 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,920 off of things. And, and, and in some ways we've 334 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,880 been an overcorrection on all of that. 335 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,720 That's part of what I've been learning personally. 336 00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,800 And so it's like, no, what is not? 337 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,680 We don't just need to react. We need to think what is 338 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,720 fitting. There is a time to have a hard 339 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,720 edge, and then there's a time. To not have a heartache. 340 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,640 So not what is permissible and not what is a reaction, but but 341 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,600 really going back to these three applications of visibly honoring 342 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,760 God building up the church and not obscuring the gospel. 343 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,520 So let's talk about those three things as a product of this 344 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,840 spiritual shape discernment to what is what is fitting. 345 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,800 So why the so just walk us through those three particular. 346 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,120 Sure. So when I'm thinking about these 347 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,880 things, the the place this came from is as I was studying First 348 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:50,160 Corinthians 11, which I I came to see really for the first time 349 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,440 that that it is just connected to the all these other passages 350 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,560 that come after that is the discrete unit within the letter. 351 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:05,960 It got clear to me that these are the three arenas within 352 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,280 which Paul is concerned. The Ephesians behave properly. 353 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,200 He's not concerned about what they're doing. 354 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,880 He says women are prophesying and women are praying in the 355 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,440 service. They're speaking for God and 356 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,160 they are representing the people of God to God. 357 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,280 They're speaking for the people. So he ain't upset about that. 358 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,520 He's upset about the fact that they're doing it with their 359 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,440 heads uncovered. He says that's not fitting. 360 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,400 It's not appropriate. Now you go study it and you look 361 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,960 at what the what the text, the original context. 362 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,640 The best I can get to is there a number of things around what's 363 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,600 an honorable life and Roman household codes and how women 364 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,280 should behave and men should behave. 365 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,320 And, and Paul is not arguing about whether all those things 366 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,720 are appropriate or not appropriate or they're eternal. 367 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,280 He hadn't hanging on to any of that. 368 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,840 He's just saying you need to have this posture when you do 369 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,520 what you do because the angels are watching, God is watching, 370 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,240 you are all here together what is appropriate and the culture 371 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,040 is watching. And so when people come in here 372 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,080 that they need to get what we're doing, and your expression needs 373 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,360 to not get in the way of that the most, that's the most 374 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,520 important thing. And so those three arenas right 375 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,920 here that he's talking about is we need to behave in a way that 376 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,400 honors God. And so part of that is I'm, I'm, 377 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,040 I'm coming with holy hands. I'm trying to do what God wants 378 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,400 me to do. And I'm doing it in the reasons 379 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,120 that God wants me to do it. I mean, part of honoring God is 380 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,720 this is not about me. I might need to express myself, 381 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,720 right? This is about God and this is 382 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,600 about my neighbor and, and I've got appropriate humility before 383 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,160 that. This is about helping my 384 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,760 brothers and sisters. You know, I may have some, I may 385 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,600 discover some. This happens to me all the time. 386 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,320 I get distracted. I discover something. 387 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:08,560 I'm like, oh, wait a minute, that was for me. 388 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,600 When I'm studying in a sermon, the things that are most 389 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,880 interesting, we almost never make it into the sermon because 390 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,000 I'm like, that was just for me. That's not for our church. 391 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,320 So you trying to practice being fitting? 392 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,080 Yeah, no, that's right. It's like, so most of the time, 393 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,760 if you see. So a lot of times I'll call 394 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,040 somebody else. So I'll call other people on the 395 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,360 teaching team or I'll talk to a friend and we'll have a 396 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:32,480 conversation about it. That'll make it into the sermon 397 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,560 because that was not, that was not edifying for our body. 398 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,720 And it could. And it could be self indulgent. 399 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,120 It'd be self indulgent. That's exactly right for me in 400 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:41,880 that moment. It doesn't mean that that was 401 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,000 wrong or that insight. It's just like that's not 402 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,560 fitting. It was, it's just not fitting. 403 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,560 It's not for everybody else. That's something I'm doing with 404 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:54,120 God, and everything that's going on between me and God is not for 405 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:57,040 everybody who's in our church. Now, if our church had 150 406 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,600 people in it and we were having a dialogue, I'd probably teach 407 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,880 very differently, and I think you'd be fitting in that 408 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,520 environment. But that's not what I'm doing. 409 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,520 Yeah, so God is watching. Others are watching inside the 410 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,520 body, building up the church, and then the whole world is. 411 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,080 Watching and then, and then the world, the unbelieving world is 412 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,840 watching. And so there is this sense in 413 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:23,160 which we don't want to obscure the beauty of something which in 414 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,680 that day in in First Corinthians 11, there are a number of things 415 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,280 where Christians were misunderstood. 416 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,320 There were all these accusations against them. 417 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:36,040 And as a result of that, Paul is saying, I need you to restrain 418 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:41,120 some of your liberties, even in worship, so these unbelievers 419 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:44,840 won't think we're nuts. It it didn't help anybody. 420 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,720 You got heaven forever to do all of that, you know, whatever that 421 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,760 is. But that's not what we're doing 422 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,960 here. This is not just you, and God is 423 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,360 you and God one another and the watching world. 424 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,080 So, and it brings us back to that idea of love governing, I 425 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,040 think. Even as you're talking, I think 426 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,640 one example that has come into my mind around this idea of 427 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,560 propriety and honestly where we are already doing this a few 428 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,440 years ago with student ministry, we started training them around 429 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,080 this idea. When we go on mission trips with 430 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,120 modesty, and you've already brought up modesty, that's a 431 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,200 whole different podcast for another day. 432 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,200 But helping them understand that that's not just about clothing, 433 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,000 but even we started challenging them on like, hey, what is the 434 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,120 brand of water bottle that you bring with you on a mission trip 435 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:40,120 or your book bag or your sunglasses? 436 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,120 And like in that moment, are you bringing in this really 437 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,320 expensive brand? And all of these kids that we're 438 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,520 working with see that and they just get distracted and there's 439 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,680 actually like a barrier that's created between us and them when 440 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,280 we're trying to create relationship and how that is 441 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,360 actually like working against what we're trying to do on this 442 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:06,840 trip. So it's that exact same idea of 443 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,320 we're here for a purpose where we have something that God has 444 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,840 asked us to do and how we conduct ourselves works towards 445 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,800 that goal or works against that goal in terms of propriety, in 446 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,120 terms of appropriateness. So I think, I do think that's 447 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,080 one area that we've done this well. 448 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,280 But to your point, there's a lot of other areas in which we can 449 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,960 continue to apply this idea. Well, and it's funny, we're 450 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,680 going to come back to the worship gathering in a second, 451 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,880 but something that as we were preparing for this that I had 452 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,960 never thought about, and I've taught this passage a ton, But 453 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,400 in 2nd Corinthians 8, when they're talking about collecting 454 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,240 an offering and you know, Paul said, he uses the word honorable 455 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,840 here, but he says, we, we were careful to be honorable before 456 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,000 the Lord, but we also want to be honorable to with everyone else. 457 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,920 We want everyone else to see that we were honorable basically 458 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,240 in the way that we took this offering. 459 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,000 We, we, we had accountability. We took it together, We 460 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,880 delivered it to the church in Jerusalem because the world was 461 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,880 watching and they wanted to know, what are they going to do 462 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,400 with this money? The church was watching? 463 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,160 Are they really going to do, Are they going to use it for 464 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,320 themselves? Are they going to take the 465 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,960 money? So I just thought, OK, well, 466 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,720 that's you're right, it's everywhere. 467 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,440 Yeah, it really is. And even in that environment, 468 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,880 like there's so much within the, the let's just say the we're on 469 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,280 the ragged edge of the Enlightenment, right? 470 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,000 So humanism does jump the shark. So we've gone all the way into 471 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,960 like craziness and and we all know that it's not great, but we 472 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,200 we don't really, we're not real sure how to draw that back. 473 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,520 So, But even the idea that I don't care what other people 474 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,360 think, OK, now there is a biblical sense in which fear of 475 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,360 man is a bad motivation for your life. 476 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,280 We talk about that all the time. But Paul cares what other people 477 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,080 think, right? Paul cares what other people 478 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,040 think. Paul's not resting in his own 479 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,760 conscience. Paul's trying to be for everyone 480 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,200 to see. Oh, this is all above board, you 481 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,160 know, And I just think that that's a. 482 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:13,840 That's fitting. Yeah. 483 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,680 You know, let's put this into what we were talking before. 484 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:19,920 Let's just use a couple of easy examples. 485 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,960 Let's talk about a wedding and a funeral just as as quick 486 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,640 examples to get your mind going. And then maybe we could push 487 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,520 that into our gatherings and just. 488 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,760 Sure. Just see what we can find there. 489 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:37,840 So give us an example of how something would what would what, 490 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,920 what what's the what's the negative non propriety? 491 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,320 Yeah, impropriety, impropriety, you're right. 492 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,720 Impropriety. So what does impropriety look 493 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,120 like as it results results in as it relates to like a wedding or 494 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,160 a funeral for example? OK, so I would say like if 495 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,720 you're in a wedding, if if I'm officiating a wedding and we've 496 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,440 all been to these weddings, right? 497 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,560 And so, and they stand out and we remember them is you have a 498 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,240 preacher who's got an axe to grind in the wedding. 499 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,480 And the wedding is not about the wedding becomes about whatever 500 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,640 agenda he has to make a point about what's wrong with our 501 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:22,920 culture or what's wrong with the oppression of women within 502 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,520 marriage. Traditionally, whatever you pick 503 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,040 something, there's some axe to grind. 504 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,440 And so now this ceremony, which should be any Christian wedding, 505 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,320 the core of it is the vows. We have two people who have 506 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,880 gathered before God and witnesses, and they are going to 507 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,400 take a solemn oath that for the rest of their lives they will 508 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,320 fulfill their biblical obligations to one another. 509 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,360 That's what a wedding is. You could do nothing else at a 510 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,000 wedding. Just two people come down to the 511 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,680 front, in front of the people of God. 512 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,720 And then someone gets up and overseas it as a representative 513 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,200 of Christ and says, you know, sure, these people are taking 514 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,320 these vows. These are timeless vows that 515 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,520 have been given to us by God. They're going to vow to do the 516 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,520 things that are timeless commands for a husband and wife 517 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,520 until Jesus returns. And they're going to do that. 518 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,160 You could do that. And that's a wedding, right? 519 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,240 But but you could also have the wedding become about all these 520 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,720 things, about people's dreams and their fantasies. 521 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,720 And then you can have it, the preacher who wants to take it 522 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,320 and hijack it, you know, because I'm a preacher, you know, take 523 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,840 it and hijack it and make it about whatever their thing is. 524 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,600 And then they turn it into an evangelism ceremony and try to 525 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,640 get people saved. They try to whatever, whatever's 526 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,360 going on. Same thing with a funeral, 527 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,360 right? Right. 528 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,640 Is there's a measure of propriety, of understand what is 529 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,560 fitting in this moment. We have people who are grieving. 530 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,720 Let's legitimize grief. The Scripture legitimizes grief. 531 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,920 Death is an enemy. Death is a defeated enemy, 532 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,480 right? So there are simple things that 533 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,120 can be done that that they're just fitting they're for the 534 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,360 moment. And when they're done that way, 535 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,680 you're like, oh, that's what's supposed to be done. 536 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,120 And then when it's not done that way, you're like, well, I mean, 537 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,080 all that's true. And I guess sometimes, well, 538 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,240 some just fell off Something did seem right. 539 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,920 It'd be like. That didn't sit right with me. 540 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,640 No, that's the way people use that language. 541 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:20,360 Right. That's right. 542 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,200 And it's like, and then you're giving offense to the gospel. 543 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,960 And so I think religious people do this well, intending all the 544 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,520 time. And fundamentally, this is not, 545 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,400 I don't think this is super foreign idea to us because if 546 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,680 you strip it all the way down, like if you're in a public store 547 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,040 with a little kid and they just blurt something out, you know, 548 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,680 it's like, oh, that Lady looks funny. 549 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,960 And you're like, hey, buddy, that's an inside thought, right? 550 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,200 You know, like we, we do understand this idea of here's a 551 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,160 space and here's a moment. And we're not going to say that 552 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,640 in this moment. And we really shouldn't think 553 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,200 something like that at all. But like we do, I get that. 554 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,600 But then we get to be adults and we're like, oh, it doesn't apply 555 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,320 anymore. Or it just takes a different. 556 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,280 Form yeah, I do think that we have and then our culture again 557 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,520 is a reaction. I got to be my true self. 558 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,200 I have to express myself. If I don't do that that's the 559 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,880 worst crime I could do is to sin against who I really AM. 560 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,320 And, you know, and we've just gotten unmoored in some ways. 561 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,720 And it and it creeps in in these in these different expressions 562 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,360 with people all over the spectrum. 563 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,720 This is not a right or a left issue for sure. 564 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,960 You know, there's enough impropriety to go around. 565 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,040 And so it really comes back to this gospel issue of being led 566 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,440 by the Spirit to know what is fitting and appropriate and the 567 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,920 environment. I've been for the good of the 568 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,880 people of God, for the glory of God, and for the, you know, to 569 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,320 pro, to promote the beauty of who God is and whose people are 570 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,760 to a watching world. It's just a real simple thing 571 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,960 that if we could just think about that in the moment, I 572 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,720 think it'd be really helpful for us. 573 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,600 And in this context, in where we are in the book of Corinthians 574 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,680 head coverings, sure, appropriate approach to the 575 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,040 Lord's Supper, expression of gifts as they edify the body and 576 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,920 we love one another. So we take that, but we're also 577 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,600 applying it to 2026 Grace Church. 578 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,080 So just as we got to wrap up Bill, what are some ways that we 579 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,240 need to begin to think about this spirit shaped discernment 580 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,360 of how we're honoring God, others in the world when we 581 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,400 gather for Christian worship? Where do we Where do we need 582 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:30,720 some correction? Yeah. 583 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,560 I mean, well, we have to first of all this, what I would say is 584 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,160 we, we have to recognize that we, we don't have anything to 585 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,200 defend. The truth is the truth and we 586 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,760 don't have a corner on the truth. 587 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,840 And our current practice is not, we don't need to canonize, make 588 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,440 it a standard, our current practice and what we're doing 589 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,080 right now. I mean, a lot of what we're 590 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,080 doing, it isn't unbiblical, but a lot of what we're doing is a 591 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,640 biblical. You mean just the way that we 592 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,320 gather on Sunday? What we gather on. 593 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,199 Sunday songs we sing, teaching structure, all that kind of. 594 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,199 Stuff, yeah. Who does it, who leads, how they 595 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:11,360 lead. OK. 596 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:20,440 And so I think we need to just first of all realize that we're 597 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,000 in process and we need the spirit of God to guide us, which 598 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,159 is such an obvious thing. I'll be honest, I mean, that's, 599 00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:28,880 I think I say this, I taught this twice and trying to get as 600 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,159 good as I can get it. And I'm, I'm, I'm done trying to 601 00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:33,360 get it better. But but as I was, as I was 602 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,040 teaching, I can't remember when I said it, but it's just one of 603 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,600 the reasons I came to Grace Church as I came out of a 604 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,679 tradition that was very bent on being right about things. 605 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,040 And for us, it wasn't rules and but it was theological 606 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,719 framework. And, and I'd seen a lot of 607 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,719 division and I was beginning to see how fragile people were 608 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,280 within that context because you couldn't disagree on the basis 609 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,720 of scripture. And I was like, well, this is a 610 00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:02,560 problem, you know? And so I thought I got to get 611 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,600 out of all that and this is not going well. 612 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,240 And so I got a job in Ken Grace Church, and I have friends who 613 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:11,840 corrected me for coming to Grace Church because they said you 614 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,000 don't deal, you don't agree theologically. 615 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,080 There's some things where I was distinct from kind of the 616 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,760 standard positions of our church and certainly in practice. 617 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,320 And I was like, you know, but here's the thing, I I want to be 618 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,520 somewhere where people have humility before the Scriptures, 619 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,720 then they're open to change. They're open to be led by the 620 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:35,040 Scriptures and, and I found this to be a place where that could 621 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,880 have, I went on staff here. I won't work in here. 622 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,280 I was volunteering in children's ministry, you know, and that's 623 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,320 where they needed people. I'm worst children's ministry 624 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,000 volunteer ever. So I mean, I really was. 625 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,160 And so I quickly got moved out of children's ministry in the 626 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,120 student ministry because they're like, he's terrible. 627 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,040 So, so I say all of that to say this, I think the important 628 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,800 thing for us as a church is that we be open to be led by the 629 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,160 Spirit. That's the posture that we need 630 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,760 to be in. And, and I do believe that there 631 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,440 are ways in which we need to grow. 632 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,360 We, we came from, we, we've been trying to engage men as leaders 633 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,920 because in most churches in America, when, when we were 634 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,320 growing up, you know, you had a paid pastor who is a man, but 635 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,920 the rest of the dominant voices in our churches were women. 636 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,560 You know, the best Bible study teachers, the best men's 637 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,320 energies were going elsewhere. And so we're trying to call 638 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,200 people out of put men out of passivity. 639 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,000 So you can't do everything every time you do anything otherwise 640 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,720 you'd always you'd never get anything done because you'd 641 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:32,080 always be doing something else. Right. 642 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,800 So you all heard me joke say that, But I mean, we were 643 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,480 driving that. And, and I think we've realized 644 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,640 now, I don't believe that women in our church, if I show you on 645 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,720 our budget, how much money the women of our church are in 646 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:50,520 charge of. And they have oversight, you 647 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,520 know, but whatever elder pastor that comes up through knows way 648 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,240 less about it than they do, you know, So hiring and firing and 649 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:04,600 leave, we have women leading in ways that are amazing and giving 650 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,600 direction. And we found a way to do all of 651 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,800 that in a way that I believe is totally fitting and appropriate 652 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,880 and went well within the boundaries of biblical 653 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,480 propriety. But I think we also, we need 654 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,320 more female perspective and more female voices. 655 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:26,080 And we've got to find a way. How do we acknowledge our 656 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:34,720 manhood and womanhood and, and, and create as much freedom as 657 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:39,240 God wants us to have and not be fearful and reactive? 658 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,440 And I mean, I'm going to tell you that, you know, we're not 659 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,440 going to have women as governing elders of our church or women as 660 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:48,920 shepherding pastors on our staff. 661 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,920 We have women who have the title minister. 662 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,040 They're a deaconess. They're a servant of the church 663 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,200 with gifts, calling. They met biblical standards and 664 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,880 they are serving in that way. That is, that is an office that 665 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,440 we have in our church. That is a position women carry, 666 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,840 right? And so we believe that is a 667 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,040 matter of transcendent truth, a matter of transcendent truth, 668 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,720 right? But we need to be open to the 669 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:15,960 idea of how how did how does this flesh its way out in the 670 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,480 church? And we need to not be fearful. 671 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,760 And I'll tell you, I think it's really important that we think 672 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,840 about it because the Roman household codes were really 673 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,000 important to people in that day and in our day. 674 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,680 Other things are important. And so in order to protect 675 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,240 ourselves from making one mistake, we don't need to be so 676 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,960 locked down that we discredit ourselves and come across as 677 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:45,640 oppressive and misogynist, you know, in other ways. 678 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,960 And so there's, there's we have to make progress in all of that. 679 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,680 There's no agenda, you know, but it's a dialogue. 680 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,080 Our elders have been engaged on this issue for two solid years. 681 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,920 That's when propriety was a personal thing for me that I was 682 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,200 working on in my growth and maturity as a believer. 683 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,320 As we were studying, arguing, dialoguing about this issue and 684 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,840 cut trying to come to Unity on it, I began to see more and more 685 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,400 this is just an issue. This is a bigger issue for the 686 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,520 church. Propriety is a category that we 687 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,080 struggle with. We're on a journey and we don't 688 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,440 need to be self-righteous. We don't need to be dividing 689 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,080 from people with whom we disagree. 690 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,600 I mean, that's part of why I'm studying with this Methodist guy 691 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,440 with whom I disagree, but I have a ton of respect, right, is that 692 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,280 he's pushing me to see thing and I am seeing things. 693 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,480 I have a fundamentally changed in anything that I believe, but 694 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:47,320 and how we apply transcendent truth, what a timely application 695 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,840 is that's going to move and change. 696 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,480 There are issues within our culture that are not wrong that 697 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,760 are a corrective and we need to think about how do we express 698 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,120 that and become conversant and not just be reactionary and 699 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,120 fearful and only concerned about going too far right. 700 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,320 And so we create all these rules that, well, women can do this, 701 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,360 women can't do that. You know, which really diverts 702 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,520 from the whole thing is that men are supposed to own 703 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,160 responsibility for what God has entrusted to them, right? 704 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,400 And the, the hook, the men are on the hook. 705 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,040 Like the problem with Adam and Eve was that Adam was present 706 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,400 and he didn't do his job. And then he took direction from 707 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,040 Eve rather than taking direction from God. 708 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:42,680 And then when he was caught in all of that, he blamed Eve and 709 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,280 hid behind her and blamed God for giving him Eve. 710 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,480 It seems like if you give me a better woman, then I wouldn't 711 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:53,000 have this problem, you know, And we're trying to call men out of 712 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,720 that, this. So there's propriety. 713 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:58,240 It's not just, you know, can a woman breach A sermon? 714 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,640 It's, it's, it's a, it's a bigger issue for both of us that 715 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,080 we have to figure out what is fitting. 716 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,160 Yeah. For us. 717 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,200 Yeah, I think that's a good, that's a good word. 718 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,600 So we've got a working definition. 719 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,760 We've got some notes we'll put for you in the show notes. 720 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,680 This won't be the last time. Like I said, we're in a section. 721 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,400 I'm sure this word's going to come up in various ways. 722 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,040 And as you've heard Bill talk about just some issues that our 723 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,800 governing elders are talking through and like this is going 724 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,680 to be a present, present day issue for us. 725 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,400 So we'll we'll keep the conversation going. 726 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,800 Bill, any final thoughts before we sign off? 727 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,080 Let's not be fearful, let's believe the best about one 728 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,040 another, let's love one another, let's trust God. 729 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,680 Jesus says the Holy Spirit will guide us and all truth. 730 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:50,520 Let's not compromise the scriptures and let's not be 731 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,160 worried about having our own way. 732 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,800 Let's let's just care about what God tells us to care about his 733 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,560 glory one another and the proclamation of the gospel and 734 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,480 the demonstration of the gospel to a watching world and it and 735 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,280 if we'll do that, that's the context within which Jesus says 736 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,480 the Holy Spirit will guide you. And, and I think for us as a 737 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,040 view, we want to be those kind of people. 738 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,680 I'm not as concerned about what we do. 739 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,920 I am very concerned both for myself and about, you know, 740 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,080 because what what we need to do. I think that's not that 741 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,600 complicated. How we do it and the manner in 742 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,800 which we love and prefer one another, the pace at which we do 743 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,600 what we do, the manner in which we do at the spirit within which 744 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,200 we do it, those things really matter. 745 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,880 And I think that's that's the thing that it's clear to me that 746 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,600 I want us to be that kind of people. 747 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,040 Yeah. Those are the things that that 748 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,200 mark one another way more than the outcome often. 749 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,040 That's exactly right. And I think that is what Paul is 750 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,760 addressing in this. He's not saying you are doing 751 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,920 the wrong things. He is saying you are doing the 752 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,600 things you need to be doing, but you are doing them in ways that 753 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,120 are not befitting the people of God, that don't demonstrate an 754 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:09,200 awareness of who God is, of the heavenly host that has skin in 755 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,880 the game of each other and of the watching world. 756 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,840 You care about the wrong thing, which most of the times you care 757 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,920 about yourself, right? And then you're just thinking 758 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:24,720 about your experience. And we got to get better at at 759 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,160 caring about what we need to care about. 760 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,800 And I think that's Paul's point. All right, well done. 761 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,120 Well, thanks for the conversation. 762 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,320 Hope that's been helpful for you. 763 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,640 Again, make sure that you are listening to the first part of 764 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,200 Chapter 11, going to continue through the next few chapters as 765 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,720 we talk about propriety and Christian worship. 766 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:47,160 And Bill, thanks for caring and coming on the podcast sharing 767 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,440 some thoughts. Yeah, thanks for thanks for 768 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,560 having me. None of this was we didn't have 769 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,200 time to make it into the sermon and I thought this might be a 770 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:55,880 helpful companion. So thanks for doing. 771 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:56,840 Yeah, thanks. So.