1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,880 If we're rejoicing this Christmas, or if we're weeping 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,160 this Christmas, or if it's a mingling of the two, which for 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:12,840 most of us it's a mingling of the two. 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,120 Finding time to meditate on the significance of God being with 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:24,280 us in Christ and let the truth of His presence be a real anchor 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,080 for our soul. Again, whether we're rejoicing 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,560 or whether we're weeping and believing that we can have real 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,960 joy and contentment through all that. 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,840 Welcome back to the Grace Church podcast. 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,960 Today we are talking about the holidays. 11 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:44,080 Seems like we have been in holiday season since well before 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:45,880 Halloween this year for some reason. 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,000 And I'm here with Whitney Maynus. 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,160 Hello, Whitney. Hey, Scott. 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,000 And here with Joey Alton and we are wanting to talk about ways 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,920 that as a church family, we can navigate the next couple of 17 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,120 weeks. And so, Joey, thanks for joining 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:02,840 us. Hey man, I'm glad to be here. 19 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,480 Tell us a little bit about you, your family, and what you do 20 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,960 here at the church. Yeah, My family and I, we came 21 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:13,720 to Grace in the middle of 2007. So my wife Charlie and our 22 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,560 daughter Mary Sullivan. I've been members since then and 23 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,080 probably 12 or 13 years ago came on our staff. 24 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,000 And currently my role in staff is here at the Pelham campus as 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,480 pastor to discipleship and group. 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,480 So I'm working with our pastors and our ministers to provide 27 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,760 care and oversight and shepherding and discipleship 28 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,320 growth for our campus. And so when you think about care 29 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,160 and oversight, mainly talking about adults, is that right? 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:39,200 Yeah, that's right. Adults. 31 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,960 Yeah. And so as we enter into this 32 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:44,400 conversation, you just had some some thoughts about how to help 33 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,480 our adults, help our families, just really help them work 34 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,200 through all the complexity that the holidays can bring. 35 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,320 And so tell us a little bit about just what's on your heart. 36 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,360 Yeah. So during the Christmas season, 37 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,200 it's, it's very evident to me that people have all sorts of 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,920 experiences and perspectives during this this time of year. 39 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,560 And so for some, this season is full of dread and fear, and for 40 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,360 others, it's legitimately celebration and cheer. 41 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,320 And most of us probably ebb and flow between those two things, 42 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,280 depending on what's happening in our lives. 43 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,080 And so for some of us, it's a reminder of loss, the loss of a 44 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,080 loved one, the loss of traditions, the loss of 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,640 gatherings. And so the nostalgia that comes 46 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:34,640 with the season and gatherings of family and friends, like 47 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,920 those are real losses worth lamenting. 48 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,320 And then for others, there's a lot of new things, new children, 49 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,120 new homes, new grandchildren, new traditions to create, new, 50 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,280 old traditions to enjoy a new ways. 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,200 And your family and your friends can get together and there's not 52 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,440 a ton of drama. So all that's worth celebrating. 53 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,840 So here's what I find myself asking is what is God teaching 54 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,840 us as we go through the Christmas season? 55 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:59,240 And how do we love others? Well. 56 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,640 Because we know the reason for the celebration, we're pretty 57 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:08,560 clear on that as believers, but yet that somehow gets drowned 58 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,200 out in a lot of personal emotion, feeling experiences. 59 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,720 And so we want to acknowledge that all that's real. 60 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,160 Because I don't even know that you mentioned the the 61 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,760 consumeristic part that is just constantly battling for 62 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,880 attention. That's another layer of, of 63 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,960 complexity. And so and I think if you're 64 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,360 listening to this, you're firmly in the middle of it. 65 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,440 You understand it just like Joey was saying, you're probably 66 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,720 ebbing and flowing even like we are in the room this morning. 67 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,760 So what we thought we would do is just kind of break it down by 68 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,080 just a few few topics and just offer some thoughts and some 69 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,600 commentary around different topics, different groups of 70 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,800 folks, different seasons of life. 71 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:50,960 And hopefully I think you'll find this helpful. 72 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,360 So we wanted to start out just by talking about our our single 73 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,320 population that may feel a certain acute sense of 74 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,160 loneliness in this season. Yeah. 75 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:08,120 And so as we think about our our responsibility and to try to 76 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,640 learn together what God's teaching us, then for those in 77 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,880 our church who are single, then there's a responsibility to to 78 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,800 the single person and to our church to love well and to love 79 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,880 one another well. There's mutual responsibility. 80 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:28,440 So for us to be aware that extended singleness feels like a 81 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,280 real loss for some of our folks. And they are headed into 82 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:35,680 situations where they're going to have their relatives that 83 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,920 they see every year or two ask about significant others and if 84 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,160 they're dating anyone. And they're going to have to 85 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,680 stand there and smile their way through it and to say, no, 86 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,360 there's no one right now. And so we have to acknowledge 87 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,200 it. That's a real thing that our 88 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,080 folks are heading into. And then for the single person, 89 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,800 when that conversation comes your way, the idea of loving 90 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,520 that person to the point that you desire to be loved, it's a 91 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,320 real opportunity to just display that your contentment, your 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,400 satisfaction is who got is in who God is and what he has for 93 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,480 you, not what a relative who sees you every couple years 94 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:12,400 thinks about you all. Right. 95 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,520 So say that little. Say that sentence one more time. 96 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:19,080 That in that moment when when the relative is approaching you 97 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,600 about your singleness right, you have a chance to love them to 98 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,920 the point that you desire to be loved. 99 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,560 And in doing so, display that your contentment is and who God 100 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,240 is and what He has for you, not in their opinion of you. 101 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120 That's good, yeah. And that's part of, I mean, I'll 102 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,880 speak as a single person that, you know, part of the difficulty 103 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,480 is not just that you wish that you had somebody to love you, 104 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,640 but that you have love that you would love to be giving to 105 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,640 somebody else. And so like that's a great 106 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,880 opportunity to instead of be focused on the thing that like 107 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,640 the loss, like filling it with the people who are in front of 108 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:03,680 you and that you are in contact with and, and don't always get 109 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,680 to see, but on the holidays. So it's a unique opportunity 110 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,800 there. And I think we'll get ready to 111 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,800 talk about this in a little bit too. 112 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:16,120 But singleness is a much broader expanse than we give it credit 113 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,960 for. So there's your 20s and single 114 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,120 30s never married, you've got your widows, you have those have 115 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,560 been divorced like and there's just a lot of complexity in all 116 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,080 of that. There's just layers of grief and 117 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,440 difficulty in that as well. So yeah, that's great, Joey. 118 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,320 That's helpful. So then what? 119 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,560 What are some ways as you think about the church being able to 120 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:42,400 step in? We want to make sure that's 121 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,600 prominent in this conversation. How can the church help care for 122 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,920 our single population during the holidays? 123 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:58,120 Yeah, it's we can't reduce identity of a person to marital 124 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,520 status. Like we have to validate their 125 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,040 personhood as image bearers. They're made in the image of 126 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,800 God. And so they're if they are 127 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,760 believers, then are there are brothers and sisters and it's 128 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,240 it's easy to treat singleness as a problem to be solved versus 129 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,480 just loving the person and being present with them in that. 130 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,920 So learning to acknowledge loneliness without minimizing 131 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,120 it. I'm inviting people into what 132 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,160 you're a part of. Create opportunities for 133 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,400 experiencing things together, whether that be a meal, taking 134 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,920 in all the things around town that are happening this time of 135 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,800 year, serving together. Really trying to create spaces 136 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,800 of belonging and dignity for one another to be together. 137 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,920 So again, not treating the single as a problem to be solved 138 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:55,320 or to be pitied, but to really have relationship with one 139 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,240 another. Yeah, as image bearers, right? 140 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,680 Yeah. And as in this conversation, as 141 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,120 brothers and sisters in Christ who are trying to follow Christ 142 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,400 and become more fully formed into the image of Christ, right? 143 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,440 And recognizing that we need each other, that the married 144 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,040 needs the single and the single needs the married. 145 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:12,440 That's right. And I think that gets lost 146 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:13,400 sometime. Would you agree with? 147 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,120 Yeah. And I think the word pity is 148 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,440 helpful to think about because I think if you are the single 149 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,240 person, you can throw yourself a pity party and it can feel like 150 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,680 everybody else around you is like, man, sorry, I hate that 151 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,840 for you. And like there is, it's just 152 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,760 bigger than all of that, you know, like there is good work 153 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,559 that we can be doing in this season. 154 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,559 And I am just really fortunate for the community that I have 155 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,640 and people who have just had kids and they're inviting me 156 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,000 into their homes, but like I'm inviting them into my home and 157 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,200 creating opportunities to connect with them as well. 158 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,320 And like, I really, I just need that relationship. 159 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,280 But I hope that they would say that like during the holidays, 160 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,400 that they want my presence, like they want me to be a blessing to 161 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,560 their family and to care for them uniquely because of the 162 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:03,920 season that I'm in. Yeah. 163 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,160 And this is not just a conversation or an opportunity 164 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,800 that is unique to the Christmas season, obviously. 165 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,080 And that's probably really, really important to state right 166 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,360 now. This should be a mindset all the 167 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,120 time, however, because it is acute. 168 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,440 We're acutely aware of certain gatherings and traditions and 169 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,240 things like that, and it's a great opportunity to just 170 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,800 reinforce this idea of looking out for one another and loving 171 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,320 one another and creating spaces of hospitality. 172 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,440 Is that what you said, John? Yeah, I think that's really 173 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,520 great. Anything else you want to add to 174 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:36,800 that? Yeah. 175 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,600 I have a couple of things. So even like years ago, Charlie, 176 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,480 my wife, I said a statement something like this, that we're 177 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,600 responsible to make singles feel valued, seen and spiritually and 178 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,720 relationally embraced. And she goes, you probably need 179 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,360 to replace singles with people. And I was like, oh, that is a 180 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,640 good word for me because then I'm not creating this. 181 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,600 Hierarchy. Yeah, right. 182 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,160 Based on marital status. Yeah, that's right. 183 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,640 And so it was a it was a loving, slight rebuke to help me think 184 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,240 differently about oh, no, we are all part of this household of 185 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,240 faith and we have a responsibility to one another. 186 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,000 Yeah. But then for the single, I would 187 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,360 say this, don't try to fake your way through the holidays. 188 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,720 That'll hollow out your soul. So intentionally seek out 189 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,120 community where you can, where it's trusted and good for you. 190 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,840 Don't isolate. If you need some time of 191 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,680 solitude, use your community to to have them affirm that. 192 00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:36,720 But solitude would be to to pull away, to put into place 193 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,120 spiritual disciplines so you can go back toward being in 194 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,720 relationship for someone with other people versus just 195 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,400 clocking out saying hey, I'm done, I'm out. 196 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,480 And again, just just be present to the best of your ability. 197 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,160 Yeah, that's. Great. 198 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,280 So listen, transition and talk about those who are experiencing 199 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,240 grief, those who in that grief of all types, basically just 200 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,360 meaning a loss during during the season. 201 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:04,800 What's the word of encouragement for those folks? 202 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:10,840 Yeah, grief. Grief is, is not a state. 203 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,680 It's a process. And I mean, it does. 204 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:16,800 Grief doesn't stay put. Grief is always moving. 205 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,800 And grief is very surprising in some ways. 206 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:28,560 And so like for me personally at this time of year, the idea of 207 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,240 my grandmother who stepped in when my mother died when I was 208 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,360 five years old, to care for me. Like I, I grieve this time of 209 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,440 year in a particular way that she's not in the kitchen making 210 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,320 the things she makes for our family at Christmas. 211 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,640 In the same time, there's this deep gratitude I have for her 212 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,600 being present in our lives for so long. 213 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,320 So I have these this a duality of gratitude and grief happening 214 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,240 at the same time. So I can't deny it. 215 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,600 I got to, I got to acknowledge it. 216 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,960 That's a real loss. And more in that believing that 217 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,520 Jesus can comfort me in that. And so it is. 218 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,440 It is a unique thing that on a great, we could have a great 219 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,320 night, great Christmas, everything go well. 220 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,160 And at the end of the night, I still feel like someone's 221 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,040 missing. And I think that's a real thing 222 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,120 for our folks. Yeah. 223 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,800 And, and so really what we're talking about is experiencing a 224 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,960 full range of emotions and allowing ourselves to experience 225 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,240 the full range of emotions. Yeah. 226 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:35,360 How does our faith uniquely help us with that, Joey? 227 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,120 Yeah, if you think about Jesus being a man of sorrows, Jesus is 228 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,080 acquainted with grief. Jesus cried over loss. 229 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,880 He tells us that if we're poor in our spirit, the Kingdom is in 230 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,360 US. And if we mourn, he has real 231 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,600 comfort. And so, like, grief is 232 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,320 legitimate and it reflects real loss. 233 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,720 And there's something about feeling the weariness of life 234 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:08,120 and death that they would be easy to gloss over during the 235 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,240 season versus saying, no, no, this is right. 236 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,600 A season is so important to me. That guy came to be with us, and 237 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,080 though we're celebrating his first coming into the world, he 238 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,880 is the one that says he's coming back to wipe away every tear. 239 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,120 So I can endure through like the real grieving loss, the real 240 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,280 grief of loss of the holidays. And there are a lot of people, I 241 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,160 would imagine that are listening to this, that are experiencing 242 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,000 grief uniquely for the first time, whether it's the loss of a 243 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,560 parent or loss of a spouse or even loss of a child, a friend, 244 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:46,440 neighbor, a coworker, just someone that was present a year 245 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:51,280 ago that is not present now. It would be easy for grief to, 246 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:57,320 to overwhelm the, the gratitude that you would feel for the, the 247 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,640 memory of those, those persons just because grief is so 248 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,200 powerful. And I don't know that we do a 249 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,480 good job of, of managing it. I I love the fact that you 250 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:13,040 talked about Jesus weeping and I was a part of a natural burial 251 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,880 recently. And so I was thinking about this 252 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,920 topic a little more than I normally would. 253 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,960 And just the idea of Jesus and his humanity knowing full well 254 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,240 that he had the power to raise Lazarus and he was going to 255 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:34,800 raise Lazarus, was angry at the sadness and the despair that the 256 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,440 individuals around him were feeling, particularly Mary and 257 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,240 Martha. He was, I think, angry at the 258 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,760 loss and angry at the consequences of sin and death. 259 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,680 And I think he was ultimately angry that sin and death was 260 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,400 going to take his own life. And that's part of what the the 261 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,400 humanity, the anger, the weeping. 262 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,480 But then yet he was still was able to to raise Lazarus, even 263 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,040 though he knew it'd only be temporary. 264 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,280 And there, I don't know, there's something about that story and 265 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,760 that full range of the emotions that just gives me a place of 266 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,600 comfort to settle in when I don't even know exactly what I'm 267 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,920 feeling, you know, So I just I just comfort myself that if it 268 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,880 was good enough for Jesus to have this full range of 269 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,120 emotions, then it's all it's got to be good enough for me. 270 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,160 And and that, you know, when, when he identifies with us in 271 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,280 every way, yet was without sin. That's one of the ways that this 272 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,520 is real real for me. So any other thoughts? 273 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,360 Yeah, I do think that there's something about all those 274 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,840 emotions that you talked about and at least for my personality, 275 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,560 like wanting to rationalize them. 276 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:50,960 And it's like, where's this coming from? 277 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,400 Let me like analyze every single thing about it right here. 278 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,600 As exposed as as. Self protection. 279 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,280 Well, well, partly, but as opposed to just experiencing 280 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,160 them. Right. 281 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,040 Yeah, because then if I can understand it, then I'm in 282 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,200 control. And. 283 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,840 Right. And so I can even protect 284 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,160 against the emotional little bit. 285 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,840 And I do think that it's just helpful what you both are saying 286 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:20,760 of when those things come up, like if it's a practice to feel 287 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,920 them fully and not feel like they have to be understood. 288 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,440 And like part of that is how God has made us, that he has given 289 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,760 us those emotions just to be able to process the world around 290 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,200 us and that that's OK. And we have to process that with 291 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,680 some other folks, right, who, who aren't going to similar to 292 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,920 the first topic, not try to fix things, right, But are, are just 293 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,560 going to listen and just help, you know, identify with us in 294 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,200 our in our grief. Joey, as a as a pastor, thinking 295 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,040 about some ways, some some classes, programs, whatnot. 296 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,960 How do we as a church try to help disciple people through 297 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,800 this stage of loss? Yeah, there, there are a couple 298 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,200 things. One, I mean there's there's 299 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,359 grief share, there is a grace disguise. 300 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,920 There are things that we are putting forth for folks to come 301 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,839 and take part in to process their grief in good ways and 302 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:19,640 healthy ways with other people. So just you can, you can find 303 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,400 out more of that on our website or at your campus. 304 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,720 But I want to revisit one quick thing, Scott, if I can, please. 305 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,160 If the scriptures say that he will wipe away every tear from 306 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,320 their eyes, death shall be no more. 307 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,880 And there'll be no more mourning or crying or pain anymore. 308 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,400 Like the scriptures don't deny our tears. 309 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,480 And so for some of you that are grieving, this is the first 310 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,120 Christmas where you're grieving that lost or you know that this 311 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:48,640 is the last Christmas you're going to have with those folks, 312 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,200 that the tears are not the enemy. 313 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,680 They're OK. I was raised that tears are a 314 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,520 sign of weakness. And then even spiritually it was 315 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,480 put on me. The tears, your tears or a 316 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,920 display of your lack of faith, a new one of those things are very 317 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,960 helpful, right? That's not great. 318 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,120 But over time, learning that like tears are an actual gift 319 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:19,440 to, to help really wash away some of the deep pain of loss. 320 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:21,920 Because if the scripture said they're going to wipe them away, 321 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,520 then we can't deny them. And and this is part of our 322 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,680 experience. And so for our folks is again, 323 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,920 first, last, whatever this this season brings for you and 324 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,360 grieving. Crying is OK, Tears are OK. 325 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,840 That's a good reminder. All right, so then let's talk 326 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,360 about maybe a different form of grieving. 327 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:48,240 Grieving what you wished you had thought you might have. 328 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,000 Unsure what you even have and the context I'm talking about. 329 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:59,520 This is just larger family gatherings and the expectations 330 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,520 that come culturally with this magical Christmas experience 331 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,920 that we have. And yet we gather with family, 332 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,160 immediate family, extended family, family of origin. 333 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,840 And a lot of times there's a lot of pain, hurt, grief in that. 334 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,840 Let's let's just talk about that topic for a little bit. 335 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:29,600 How should we process going into those types of gatherings and 336 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,280 again, specifically as followers of Jesus during the Christmas 337 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:34,760 season? Yeah, yeah, I have. 338 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,680 I caught myself dealing with one of our members a couple of 339 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,920 months ago and pulling in some other folks to try to help a 340 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,880 situation. And I said, yeah, and they come 341 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,000 from a broken family. And in that moment, it kind of 342 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,640 got on me a little bit that, you know what? 343 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,320 Every family is broken because of sin. 344 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:00,960 Now, some families have far more damaging consequences, even 345 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,560 generational consequences because of sin and brokenness. 346 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,600 But the reality of it is, is all of our families are broken 347 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,560 because of sin. And for us to have any other 348 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,680 expectations other than the effects of scent, like we're 349 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,240 fooling ourselves, right? So we we should expect some 350 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:25,400 conflict among centers who are in some ways feeling confined to 351 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,840 the same place over the holidays and you're being forced to 352 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,120 interact with in some ways people you've known your whole 353 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,800 lives. But your lives may not be 354 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,240 intertwined daily, right? And it's interesting to me, like 355 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,240 those are the folks that you have the most conflict with. 356 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,160 So like when I was a kid, the person I fought with most with 357 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,600 was my sister. Not my long term best friend 358 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,600 Greg, right? Fought far more, my sister, you. 359 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,920 Got to pick Greg. Yeah, that's right, you. 360 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,480 Didn't get to pick your sister? That's right, that's right. 361 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:59,840 So like understanding our roles as as Christians and our 362 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,680 responsibilities to obey God's commands and how we're to 363 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,520 interact with our family, I think it's a big deal because 364 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,520 it'd be easier to trust how we feel and what we want and feel 365 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,880 our gaps and our deficits from our family. 366 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,680 And so they're realizing, yeah, we got the family we got, maybe 367 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,400 not the family we need completely, but what is our 368 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:24,120 responsibility to to, as Paul says in Romans 12, if it is 369 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,480 possible as far as depends on you, you live at peace with 370 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,920 everyone. How do we go live that out in 371 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,520 our families? Yeah, yeah. 372 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,760 Because it's easy to be reactive, right? 373 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,360 And that's kind of what I was talking about. 374 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:37,120 The grieving process, even the mourning process of, well, my 375 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,840 family didn't turn out the way I wanted is not the expectations I 376 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,360 have or this is challenging for me. 377 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:49,120 And, and so we're just reacting, you know, to the the, the heat. 378 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,880 I think you talked about the close confines of family. 379 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,400 I mean, that's can be physical. It's really emotional. 380 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,760 Again, this is not described every family, but I think like 381 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:04,560 you said, most family has some acute brokenness even in the 382 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,760 best of families. So what does it look like to, to 383 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,080 really take that command of, of being at peace with one another 384 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,760 and loving one another? Well, Joey, can you think of 385 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,600 some practical ways or Whitney of how do, how do we, how do we 386 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:26,000 do that with those, those folks that we are, we are in familial 387 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,960 relationship, even though we might not be in proximity and 388 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,080 and maybe not even, you know, be in the family of faith together. 389 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,720 What is that help? Help us think through that a 390 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,960 little bit. Yeah, my goal, which I fall 391 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:43,200 short of, but the goal is that when we are, when we're in 392 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,480 whatever experience we're having together as a family, is that 393 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:46,680 I'm the biggest center in the room. 394 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,720 And that I cannot hold unrealistic expectations of 395 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,560 others. I cannot hold them accountable 396 00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:02,920 to those expectations that I am to be present, to obey God, to 397 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,040 hold my tongue, to not elevate myself above other people. 398 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,400 Proverbs 19 says it is to one's glory to overlook an offense. 399 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,800 So it doesn't mean we all have to view this world the same way. 400 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,760 I don't have to try to win them to how I view the world. 401 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,920 I don't have to try to win them to, you know, whatever the 402 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:29,440 argument of the day is, I'm trying to go be a representative 403 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,960 of Christ and his Kingdom in a way that's real evident how I 404 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,640 relate to my family. Yeah, and I have a good family. 405 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,680 My family's normal crazy. Sure. 406 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,080 Yeah, Yeah. Well, I mean, because even 407 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,680 though, I mean, that's such a good picture of trying to insert 408 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,800 a, a, a view of self, a self righteousness that I think eases 409 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,800 some of the tension that we feel because we know that we're 410 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,840 broken. And so if we can find a point of 411 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,480 disagreement that we're pretty clear that we're right on and 412 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,760 leverage that up against the family member, it eases some of 413 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,000 the tension that we feel with our own brokenness. 414 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,320 I mean, and that might be, you might not have ever thought 415 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,160 about it that way, or maybe I'm the only one who's ever done 416 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,440 that, but just fighting against that type of self righteousness. 417 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,200 And I think you just described it perfectly. 418 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,800 That's a that's a goal for all of us because there's only one 419 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,280 that was righteous. That's right. 420 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:25,840 And I think another layer to the brokenness piece is that we're 421 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,880 all just changing too. So in our women is a grace we'd 422 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,360 like. We talk a lot about season, you 423 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:35,800 know, and this is true for everybody, that there are new 424 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,360 things that are happening all the time. 425 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:39,640 There are new seasons that are being entered into. 426 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,560 Children are becoming adults and adults are becoming parents and 427 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,520 parents are becoming grandparents. 428 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,280 And we're always adapting and trying to understand this new 429 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,840 phase that we're in. And so I think that also helps 430 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,440 me to not develop that sense of self righteousness when I'm 431 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,840 like, OK, I can't have the same expectations for my little 432 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,880 brother at the age of 21 that he that I did when he was eight, 433 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,200 you know, and I can't keep seeing him in that then. 434 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,960 And so just also leaving room for as we all change personally, 435 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,880 like relationship dynamics are just going to change over time 436 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,800 as well. And not feeling any guilt about 437 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,640 that. But just like there's just new 438 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,120 things to navigate. So sometimes it's just 439 00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:28,680 brokenness and then sometimes it's just newness that we're 440 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,520 trying to figure out. But a lot of a lot of people 441 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,600 hate change. Some people love it, a lot of 442 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,240 people hate it. And it feels like the idea of 443 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,720 having traditions pushes back even against change. 444 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,240 It's interesting like this tradition means this is the what 445 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,800 we do, the way that we've done it because we've harnessed this 446 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,560 type of Christmas nostalgia from the past. 447 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,960 And so I think that's a good word to being open to change. 448 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,240 And that means that we meet, we, we probably need to do some 449 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,200 mental work. Hopefully you're hearing this in 450 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,880 time to do some mental work so that you're not pushing into a, 451 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,880 a family environment with the same expectations that you've 452 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,080 had for the last five years. Sure. 453 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,280 Yeah. Or the last 25 years, Right. 454 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,920 So Joey, any more thoughts on that? 455 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,560 I mean, yeah, it's just I started reading Proverbs 17 a 456 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,640 while back for myself and I had to just realize that there's 457 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,240 some of the things that are coming out, just not even just 458 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,720 my family and families, a lot of things that are coming out, 459 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,560 those are secondary issues that are really not primary to what's 460 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,520 going on in their heart. And those things are just, those 461 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,000 things are just easier to engage. 462 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,440 And So what I had to do is just start reading Proverbs 17. 463 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,440 At the end of it says a truly wise person uses few words and a 464 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,520 person with understanding is even tempered. 465 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,920 I love this. The last verse says even fools 466 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,240 are thought to be wise when they keep silent and they keep their 467 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,440 mouth shut, they seem intelligent. 468 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,400 And so like as we're gathering with our families and we're 469 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,800 trying to be representative of Christ in his Kingdom, we don't 470 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,160 have to intend every argument we're invited to. 471 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,480 We can be gracious and kind and just be present. 472 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,480 Yeah. And then I think for those 473 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,040 relationships that we do feel like we are responsible for, to, 474 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,360 to further the discipleship in that individual and at the same 475 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,920 time be used by God and to grow in our own relationship with 476 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,920 God. There is a way, one phrase that 477 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,120 I come back to is I want to, it's another way of saying what 478 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:36,520 you said earlier, love people the way you want to be loved, 479 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,680 right? So if I want people to be 480 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,320 engaged and interested and ask me questions so that I can be 481 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,240 thoughtful and reflectful and have meaningful conversations, 482 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,200 well, you know what I have to do? 483 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,680 I have to be willing to do that for other other folks. 484 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:57,320 And just just one way to think about that is you can't be good 485 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,360 in conversation if you're not a good listener. 486 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,760 Being a good talker does not mean you're a good conversation. 487 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,040 So as you listen to other people, you have to be willing 488 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,280 to love them the way you want to be loved and, and draw out from 489 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,600 them. Again, this, these are the 490 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,680 people that we feel responsible for like everybody around the 491 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,160 table. You're not in relational 492 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,480 proximity, discipleship proximity too. 493 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,960 I mean, in that moment you are, but I'm talking the long term. 494 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,080 So these are the folks that you feel like God has called you to 495 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,400 play a role in their spiritual formation other than just being 496 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,400 at peace and loving them as brothers and sisters in Christ. 497 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,160 But to be able to listen well and draw out things that they're 498 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,960 saying and ask the next question and then ask the follow up 499 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,600 question and draw on those emotional cues, that can really 500 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,320 change the tenor around the table. 501 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,400 Because what I've found is that most people don't do that very 502 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,880 well. Would you agree? 503 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,760 Yeah, I mean it. It's a thing that I was also not 504 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,880 very good at, that my job has just forced me to cultivate and 505 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,440 has revealed even further how not great of a listener I am. 506 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,520 And it's convicting that if I'm sitting down to do a video or 507 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,960 sitting down to do a podcast, like I'm doing a lot of active 508 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,880 listening, but then when I go home for Thanksgiving, like, I'm 509 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,280 not always as good as devoting that degree of listening to my 510 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,120 own family members. So it's a good challenge. 511 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,560 And I, and I think 1 of an active ingredient in the 512 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:30,320 community of faith is being able to listen well, to draw out what 513 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,440 people are really thinking and really feeling. 514 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,280 And I mean, one, it takes time. So in the community of faith 515 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,880 where we are walking and doing life together, we use that 516 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,680 phrase a lot. So I'm thinking about your Home 517 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,280 group, folks that you're in, you know, small group with people 518 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,440 that you're in relationship with, you know that you have 519 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,960 touch points every single day. I think part of the challenge is 520 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,200 if we get good, hopefully we're growing and being able to do 521 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,320 that for one another. We get close to those people and 522 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,080 then we go into our immediate family, family of origin and we 523 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,600 may not feel the same closeness. Often we don't and that can be 524 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,840 disorienting, right. You guys have any thoughts on 525 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,920 how to to navigate the the community family of faith versus 526 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,640 family of origin? Yeah, as I think about, that's a 527 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,200 good question. Again, self righteousness has to 528 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,960 die in US. Let me put you this way. 529 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,800 Let me tell you a story with my mother passing when I was 5, 530 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,840 like there was debt. I had deficits in me 531 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,960 relationally and my dad did the best he could. 532 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,880 My grandmother stepped in, my sister. 533 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,760 We, I mean, there was a lot of things that came into play, but 534 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,080 I had real deficits and the household of faith, like the way 535 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,040 that the family of faith. One of the first times I really 536 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,960 experienced that was we went to a meal around the holidays at 537 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,040 someone's house and they cooked for us and we were kind of 538 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,920 playing with their kids. And then the end of dinner, they 539 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,800 went to take our plates away. And I put my hand on the plate 540 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,520 and said, no, I'll take my own plate away. 541 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,840 And I was rebuking as I know you, we are, we are here to 542 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,360 serve you. And you can go play with our 543 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,360 kids or whatever. We'll clean up. 544 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:18,680 The kitchen will be with you in a little while. 545 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:25,400 And I never knew I had a deficit in my family of origin until I 546 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,920 had that experience in someone's kitchen that night because it 547 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,040 was so different to me. And that's a small silly example 548 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,040 of the gap that I had that I didn't know I had till it gets 549 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,040 exposed by the family of faith. And we all have that. 550 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,320 Sure, yeah. And so sometimes that is in a 551 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,200 not, you know, we our dad didn't have the emotional intelligence 552 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,400 and availability we needed. And the, the the faith family 553 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,800 can step in and help that sometime our mother was 554 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,440 overbearing and put unrealistic expectations on us. 555 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,480 The family of faith can step in and help with that. 556 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,080 Sometimes we had absent parents who care more about all sorts of 557 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,080 things in the family of faith can step in and help and all 558 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,280 that My my thought would be that we cannot despise. 559 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,400 Exactly, Yeah. We have to be thankful for God 560 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,240 giving us what we need. In some ways we have to 561 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,160 understand we're not going to ever fully get what we need. 562 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,440 That if we try to put the weight of our souls on our families, 563 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,000 even the family of faith, we're going to be disappointed. 564 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,120 Yeah, I was going to say 100%. Yeah, it goes both ways. 565 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,720 And that we have to put the weight of our souls on Christ 566 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,080 and his Kingdom. That's coming one day when the 567 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,240 whole Kingdom is free from sin and its effects. 568 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,120 But for now, every relationship is going to be broken and 569 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,320 imperfect. And we've all got gaps and 570 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,920 deficits that we're trying to figure out how to be faithful 571 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:35,480 in. Yeah. 572 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,840 And so be thankful that God gives us both family of faith 573 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,800 and family of origin. And sometimes those might be the 574 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,680 same for you. And if, if so, that, that's, 575 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,120 that's great. But just recognizing that you're 576 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,440 going to have different sets of relationships with those two 577 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,480 potentially. And I, because I remember before 578 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,360 I never, no one ever told me that. 579 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,600 And so it was really disorienting for me that I would 580 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,520 do life every day with this group of people. 581 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,240 And then I would drive home with a group of people that I grew up 582 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,120 with and had intense, you know, first, let's say, 18 years of my 583 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,520 life with. But I felt disconnected from 584 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,040 just because we weren't in each other's lives more than seeing 585 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,640 each other a couple times a year and maybe one phone call a 586 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,880 month. And maybe that's on me, you 587 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,120 know, to be A, to be a better whatever, better son, better 588 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,120 brother, a better brother-in-law, a better uncle. 589 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,160 But I mean, I think that that's just the reality. 590 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,960 So then how can we as a church family just be aware and help 591 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,320 one another navigate the the family pressures that come 592 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,520 during Christmas season? Yeah. 593 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,640 I mean, I think one thing I try to do is even just have a list 594 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,560 of three or four people in my life that I do just want to 595 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,680 check in on the holidays. And maybe those are people who 596 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,640 family's not great or, you know, they're older and single, and I 597 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,760 just know they've had a recent law. 598 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,159 It's like, let me just make sure that they have community and 599 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,560 they are not spending Christmas Eve alone, things like that. 600 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,000 And just ways that I can be an encouragement to them. 601 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,080 I think the other thing just for us and on this podcast, we love 602 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,880 talking about abiding. So I have to bring it back up. 603 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,600 I think it is just a unique time when we've got some time off 604 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,159 work to reset and we've got the new year coming and you know 605 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:34,800 that you're going to have time with your family. 606 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,760 And so and for me, I have to schedule it out because if it's 607 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:39,880 not on my calendar I won't do it. 608 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,360 You schedule your abiding. I do. 609 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,199 I try to. I think people identify with 610 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:45,920 that. That's right, whether it's a day 611 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,000 or a few hours and trying to put myself in a different context, 612 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,400 you know, maybe I'd drive a little further away to a coffee 613 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:54,719 shop or whatever that looks like. 614 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,800 It's it could be going through scripture and the nativity 615 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,400 story. It could be looking through some 616 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,600 of the Old Testament prophecies and how they set up Jesus. 617 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,840 And that's what we're doing with our In That Day series this 618 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,960 month as well, which is providing a lot of great content 619 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,360 for that. But I think more than anything, 620 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,120 like I just don't want to be distracted by what the world is 621 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,840 trying to tell me that the season should be about or the 622 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,680 expectations that I should have for myself and my family. 623 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,480 And this month. But instead, like really trying 624 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:33,640 to like get excited about what it really should be about and, 625 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,840 and reminding myself of all these things that we've talked 626 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,520 about of like this is a broken world, but it's not going to be 627 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,440 that way forever. Like we'd have this greater 628 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,120 hope. And it started with Jesus. 629 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,720 And like, if I can rally my mind and my soul around those things 630 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:53,200 and firmly plant them there and get clear on who I am in Christ, 631 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,800 then I think everything else just dissolves into some 632 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,440 background noise. And yeah, doesn't become the 633 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,280 most important thing. Yeah, so being intentional to to 634 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,320 rally your soul by biting, biting with Christ, I think 635 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,440 that's I think that's great. And just a couple of tips when 636 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,640 you talked about checking on folks, I think that's great. 637 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:18,200 What we don't want to do is, is set up huge expectations of to 638 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,360 get into maybe long conversations. 639 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,080 So what I what I try to do is I just try to text someone and 640 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,640 just say, hey, thinking about you just want to check on you. 641 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,240 I'm here if you need me. No, no response needed. 642 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,640 Or don't feel obligated and just give. 643 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,400 Just take them off the hook. And I've found that people 644 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,240 really appreciate the thoughtfulness and the reminder 645 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,280 that if they do need something that you're available, but then 646 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,600 they don't feel like they have to engage maybe when they're not 647 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,640 not ready to. So I think it's AI mean texting 648 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,520 is a is a great tool, but it can can create some, some 649 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,640 unnecessary angst. So just give people permission 650 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,640 to to not have to respond. That's awesome, yeah. 651 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,800 So Joey, you have some? Thoughts. 652 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,040 No, I totally agree. If like the question is, how are 653 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:12,880 we being a devoted, faithful witness to those around us as we 654 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,880 go into the season and they're heading to their family. 655 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,880 So the idea of shooting a text, a handwritten letter, not making 656 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,800 it about you making it about them where they feel seen and 657 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,400 loved and cared for and engaged and provided hope. 658 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,720 It's so powerful to me. So my my dad passed away in 659 00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:34,040 October of 19 and there is someone connected to our family 660 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,160 who's not part of our church but he's a Christian and every 661 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,480 holiday I know by 8:00 AM I'm going to have a note from him. 662 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,280 And it's just hey, thinking about you praying for you. 663 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,680 Let me know if if you need to talk. 664 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,400 And he, he's faithful in that. And it is such an encouragement 665 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,080 to me and even spurs me along. If I'm going to be like a 666 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,800 devoted, faithful witness, someone is doing that for me. 667 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,560 And it creates a responsibility to help me think through, OK, 668 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,080 who do I need to be doing that for? 669 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,000 That's great. So it nurtures your soul, it 670 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,120 models and it exhorts you to to go do that for others. 671 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,480 Yeah. I mean, I think that's again, 672 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,960 like love others the way you want to be loved. 673 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,880 And in that case, the way you are receiving love. 674 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,080 I think that's great. So just like Whitney mentioned, 675 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:31,040 we do have a sermon series this particular December where we're 676 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,600 we're just trying to keep us oriented. 677 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,880 So make sure that you are taking full advantage of that. 678 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,960 There are literally hundreds of Advent guides, devotionals. 679 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,840 I mean, you know, we're a couple of weeks in at this point, but 680 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,680 you don't don't lose the opportunity to have that kind of 681 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,800 thoughtful reflection. And then one thing about our 682 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,880 Christmas Eve services, I mean, Christmas Eve can be the most 683 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,040 hectic day of the year. You cannot run into a Christmas 684 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,160 Eve service and slam on the brakes with your family all 685 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,960 dressed up, ready for pictures and try to get anything 686 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,200 spiritual out of it. You have to prepare yourself if 687 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,560 you wanted to be a meaningful spiritual experience to to go 688 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,640 into that with all of these emotions and expectations and 689 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,520 thoughts that we've talked about. 690 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,120 And really just try to center yourself and just commit your 691 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,640 soul to receiving, you know, from one another, from the word 692 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,120 and ultimately through the the presence of the spirit in your 693 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,960 life. OK. 694 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,840 But their obstacle, an obvious obstacle in all this is just the 695 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,720 busyness of the season guys. So I mean December becomes 696 00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:44,840 almost like two months worth of activities or more. 697 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:51,400 So how do we how do we tame the busyness so that we can address 698 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,600 everything else we've talked about? 699 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,960 Yeah, I think we have to see busyness for what it is. 700 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,280 It's a distraction from Christ and we're, I mean. 701 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,760 Business is one of the idols of our age, there's no doubt. 702 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,800 And it gets compounded this time of year when you get the next 703 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,960 invitation to this event, this thing in your neighborhood, the 704 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,120 company Christmas party. We always go and do this. 705 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,280 Like all that just puts pressure on you. 706 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:25,080 And so trying to figure out what are the things we need to say 707 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,360 yes to and what are the things we need to say no to. 708 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,440 You're going to say no to some good things because what we 709 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,880 don't want to do is be so distracted and things to be so 710 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,080 noisy for us over Christmas that we miss out on really sacred 711 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,480 moments that we could experience together because it'd be easy. 712 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,080 I mean, it's as easy to say yes to everything and be like, we've 713 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,680 got four things this week at this weekend. 714 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,600 We're going to this, we're going to that and really miss out on 715 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,960 what it's like to be quiet, reflective, contemplative, 716 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,000 engaging the Scriptures with other people, looking forward to 717 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,000 worshiping together as we celebrate Christ together as a 718 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:08,640 church, and then just consuming all those things versus 719 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:09,960 connecting with God and other people. 720 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:15,440 Yeah, so ask, give yourself permission and follow through 721 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,640 with asking yourself why are we doing this? 722 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,320 Why? Why is this necessary? 723 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,400 Why are we doing this? Is this just something? 724 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:24,880 Is this a tradition we've always done? 725 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,600 Is this just something fun? Is this something that is a 726 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,920 cultural expectation that we do? But how do we not let the 727 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,720 busyness crowd out the sacred spaces? 728 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:42,520 I I really like that and even more deeply become a medication 729 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,440 for the soul for some of these feelings, whether it's the grief 730 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,960 through loneliness, singleness, family conflict, just personal 731 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:59,160 struggle mean you can medicate your soul with busyness and 732 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,440 guess what's going to happen? January is going to come and you 733 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,400 were going to feel more more empty because you may have 734 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:13,120 missed some opportunities for some real engagement that took a 735 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,800 little more effort, but the positive type of sacred 736 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,040 engagement was there and it just took a little honesty and 737 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,600 vulnerability to get to. So well, guys, what we've done 738 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,680 today, I mean, we've really kind of focused in on some of the 739 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,400 challenges. We don't want to negate all the 740 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,800 joy, right? You said, you said this earlier, 741 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,480 like so much to be thankful, so much beauty, so much glory, so 742 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,480 much gratitude. And and so we're not trying to 743 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,240 be killjoys. We we acknowledge all of that. 744 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,600 In fact, what we're trying to do is we're trying to mediate some 745 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,040 of the other things that keep you from experiencing that. 746 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,240 That's right. So that we can really be full 747 00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:53,200 worshippers this this season. So any closing thoughts? 748 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,720 Yeah, just if if we're rejoicing this Christmas or if we're 749 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:01,440 weeping this Christmas, or if it's a mingling of the two, 750 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,120 which for most of us it's a mingling of the two. 751 00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:09,400 Finding time to meditate on the significance of God being with 752 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:15,560 us in Christ and let the truth of his presence be a real anchor 753 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,360 for our soul. Again, whether we're rejoicing 754 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,520 or whether we're weeping and believing that we can have real 755 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:23,960 joy and contentment through all that. 756 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,920 Yeah, and then just on the more practical level, I would say 757 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:33,360 what I to recap what we've already said, like look out for 758 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,720 your church family, be looking for people who just need the 759 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:40,720 encouragement, but also feel free to ask your church for 760 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,520 help, like reach out to your church family as you need things 761 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,040 and need support this holiday season. 762 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,240 Yeah. And remember, because God sees, 763 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,920 Yeah. So we want to see the way God 764 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,160 sees, and God loves, and we want to love the way God loves. 765 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,440 And we can do that because we are fully known and fully loved 766 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,280 by God. And so don't doubt that. 767 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,040 Encourage yourself with that truth of the good news. 768 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:11,520 And may that be the fuel for your worship and your love of 769 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,680 others this season. So, guys, thanks for this 770 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,040 conversation. I think it's been helpful. 771 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:16,360 Yeah, yeah. Thank you, ma'am. 772 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,200 All right. Merry Christmas, everybody. 773 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:18,960 Yeah, Merry. Christmas.