1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,200 The church has just grown a lot lately and it's just grown 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,040 really fast. And I think we're entering into 3 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:14,400 a stage that we've never had to enter in before because the 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,880 church has been around now for a while and we're just starting to 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,960 see new things. And so how do we, I guess 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,800 prioritize our energies in learning those new things and it 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,070 not be reactive, but more proactive. 8 00:00:31,310 --> 00:00:35,750 I would say, you know, like our community groups, you know, 9 00:00:35,750 --> 00:00:39,790 that's where a lot of life happens week in and week out, 10 00:00:39,790 --> 00:00:44,430 and helping leaders, helping members to shepherd one another 11 00:00:44,870 --> 00:00:49,990 when those situations happen, like what to do, how to be 12 00:00:49,990 --> 00:00:54,270 there, working on just the Ministry of of Presence. 13 00:00:54,510 --> 00:01:00,240 I'm just learning how to be in the moment when that crisis 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:05,120 happens. Welcome back to another episode 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:06,720 of the Grace Church Members Podcast. 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,920 I'm your host, Chris Rivers, and in this episode, Scott Mazingo 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,240 and I have a conversation with Jennifer Dill, who serves as 18 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,760 Grace Church's Care and Recovery Director. 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,000 She shares with us her personal experience in the area of 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,320 suffering well with others, and then gives us some tips on how 21 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:25,920 to prioritize our energy as a church to move from being 22 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:28,200 reactive to proactive in this area. 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,320 So without further ado, let's jump into this conversation. 24 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:33,680 Hey, Chris, Good to be here. Hey, Chris. 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,440 Hey, Jennifer, tell us how you started working here at Grace, 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:39,800 Your story. I'd love to hear more about 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,280 that. Yeah, thanks. 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:48,560 So it's a little bit of personal story, professional story. 29 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,480 So it's just amazing to see how God kind of brings all that 30 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,660 together, you know, when you're thinking about your life and how 31 00:01:58,660 --> 00:02:04,300 you can serve him. But back in 2006, I went to the 32 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:07,300 lake one day with a really good friend of mine. 33 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:10,539 She had been friends with me since middle school. 34 00:02:11,260 --> 00:02:15,180 We grew up together and roomed together in college. 35 00:02:15,180 --> 00:02:18,700 And you know, this wasn't just like a a best friend. 36 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:22,580 I mean, she was like a sister, family member, type friend. 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,760 And so we went to the lake one day. 38 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:31,280 I really didn't want to go. It was the part beginning of 39 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,720 senior year and I was just trying to get our apartment 40 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,520 ready and she wanted to go and just kept begging me and begging 41 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,280 me to go. So finally I went and we get 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,120 there and you know those big double tubes where you're like 43 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,880 two people can be on them. So we hopped on the boat, got on 44 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,700 the tube, you know, having a good time. 45 00:02:54,700 --> 00:03:00,260 And then so I leaned the the tube into the the wake, you 46 00:03:00,260 --> 00:03:05,020 know, so we could kind of jump it as you do on a lake. 47 00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:08,980 We came back around to the other side, hit another wake. 48 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:13,940 She flew off and died in the in the boating accident. 49 00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:16,820 So it was a really tragic boating accident. 50 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:21,020 So from there, you know, my, my worldview completely changed. 51 00:03:21,020 --> 00:03:26,910 I was Christian and but I I just remember thinking like this 52 00:03:26,910 --> 00:03:29,590 doesn't happen. Like this isn't supposed to 53 00:03:29,590 --> 00:03:32,190 happen. What just happened? 54 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:36,670 You know, our whole lives we we had planned and made all these, 55 00:03:36,870 --> 00:03:40,510 you know, things that we were going to do together and then 56 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:42,350 that was just gone in an instant. 57 00:03:42,350 --> 00:03:44,710 And I remember thinking it's not supposed to be this way. 58 00:03:45,190 --> 00:03:48,550 Or what am I supposed to do? And what were you thinking as 59 00:03:48,550 --> 00:03:50,470 far as a career path at that time? 60 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,040 Well, you know, funny enough, at that time I was thinking 61 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,160 something in ministry, but I had. 62 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,160 I had no clue what. I actually started college as an 63 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,120 elementary education major, which just found out real quick 64 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,240 that wasn't for me. The Lord said, no, you're you're 65 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:11,840 good. We'll do something else. 66 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,480 And then I just threw his prompting. 67 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,760 I knew I wanted to do something in ministry but didn't know 68 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,600 what. And so then the accident 69 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,640 happened and you know I'm left senior year, was still to to 70 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,760 finish senior year and then also figure out what are those next 71 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,640 steps and so. What was your friend's name? 72 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,520 Mallory. Mallory So as you're processing 73 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,080 the death of this best friend family member. 74 00:04:47,030 --> 00:04:54,950 We're, I mean how does that shape a 2021 year old and where 75 00:04:54,950 --> 00:04:57,790 do you, where do you take those thoughts and emotions? 76 00:04:57,790 --> 00:05:02,350 How do you how how do you allow God to channel all that in at 77 00:05:02,350 --> 00:05:07,830 that time? To be honest, at the time, I I 78 00:05:07,830 --> 00:05:10,270 really don't know. I know that's not a good answer 79 00:05:10,270 --> 00:05:16,950 to your question, but it was so I feel like people were carrying 80 00:05:16,950 --> 00:05:21,670 me through with their faith and their prayers and their strength 81 00:05:21,670 --> 00:05:25,990 in the Lord. I though my nature, my personal 82 00:05:25,990 --> 00:05:30,150 nature, was to hunker down and take care of everybody else. 83 00:05:30,390 --> 00:05:35,390 So I would say I kind of put my grief and mourning on hold for a 84 00:05:35,390 --> 00:05:37,830 couple of years. I mean, I was still devastated. 85 00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:42,030 Cry myself to sleep, you know, a lot of the lot of the time. 86 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:44,770 But I wanted to be there for everybody else. 87 00:05:44,770 --> 00:05:47,890 I felt like I've got to be strong for them. 88 00:05:47,970 --> 00:05:51,570 I've got to be there for them. And I do think God used that, 89 00:05:51,970 --> 00:05:57,090 but he was trying to, you know, tell me like, hey, you need to 90 00:05:57,330 --> 00:06:00,610 just surrender to me. But I didn't really know how to 91 00:06:00,610 --> 00:06:03,490 do that. I like to say that before the 92 00:06:03,490 --> 00:06:08,050 accident, God was just, he was in my life, but he's kind of 93 00:06:08,050 --> 00:06:12,930 more of a lofty figure. Whereas afterwards he became 94 00:06:13,170 --> 00:06:17,690 right beside me. He was there, he was alive and 95 00:06:18,330 --> 00:06:21,890 just right there beside me. And so I really don't know how I 96 00:06:21,890 --> 00:06:26,530 made it through those days as a 21 year old. 97 00:06:26,890 --> 00:06:32,770 I just knew that after that day my whole life was different. 98 00:06:34,170 --> 00:06:39,270 You know, personally, I became a lot more scared, nervous, 99 00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:42,550 anxious. Before, I would just go do 100 00:06:42,550 --> 00:06:45,990 whatever I can, still be fairly happy, go lucky. 101 00:06:45,990 --> 00:06:48,790 But now it's like guarded because I've had something 102 00:06:48,790 --> 00:06:52,070 happen in my life that it just all that was gone. 103 00:06:52,230 --> 00:06:54,310 Yeah. And we wanted to take some time 104 00:06:54,310 --> 00:06:57,030 just for you to share that, not just to get to know you better, 105 00:06:57,030 --> 00:07:00,390 but there's everyone listening can resonate with different 106 00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:05,550 parts of that story and then the the idea of how do we help 107 00:07:05,590 --> 00:07:09,590 others. In times of suffering, how do we 108 00:07:09,590 --> 00:07:12,870 suffer well with others is really what we're titling this 109 00:07:12,870 --> 00:07:18,230 episode and we thought that having your personal experience 110 00:07:18,230 --> 00:07:20,550 and then we'll talk about your professional experience in a 111 00:07:20,550 --> 00:07:22,390 minute. That is really giving you some 112 00:07:22,390 --> 00:07:26,990 insight into how you are giving the the best part of your career 113 00:07:26,990 --> 00:07:29,910 right now to help our church do this, do this well. 114 00:07:30,830 --> 00:07:34,270 And so tell us, just back up for just a second. 115 00:07:34,830 --> 00:07:36,590 Or Fast forward whichever way you want to look at it. 116 00:07:36,950 --> 00:07:40,270 Tell us about all the different ministries that you kind of 117 00:07:40,270 --> 00:07:43,550 direct and then we'll we'll go back and pick up a little bit on 118 00:07:43,550 --> 00:07:46,390 the professional side of your your training and your career 119 00:07:46,390 --> 00:07:47,350 experience. Sure. 120 00:07:48,190 --> 00:07:54,470 So care and recovery is related to grief support, divorce 121 00:07:54,470 --> 00:08:01,350 support, mental health recovery and then our legacy ministry and 122 00:08:01,350 --> 00:08:05,390 all of that is for probably about ages 5 and up. 123 00:08:05,830 --> 00:08:11,670 So anything that falls under those buckets is what our team 124 00:08:11,870 --> 00:08:14,630 helps resource the church as a whole. 125 00:08:14,950 --> 00:08:18,950 And then also another part of my job is the Funerals Natural 126 00:08:18,950 --> 00:08:24,270 burial bereavement ministry. So, so care is really the 127 00:08:24,270 --> 00:08:26,910 entirety of our church is under care Ministry. 128 00:08:27,390 --> 00:08:28,510 Sure. Yeah, Okay. 129 00:08:28,590 --> 00:08:29,790 Now that's great. That's great. 130 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:34,780 And so then to take some of the. Personal steps to get to a place 131 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:40,020 professionally where you really gave your life and your career 132 00:08:40,419 --> 00:08:42,380 to. To helping people as they they 133 00:08:42,380 --> 00:08:46,380 struggle well through grief, through suffering as they care 134 00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:48,860 for others well. Walk us through some of the some 135 00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:51,580 of the steps that you took to to get here professionally. 136 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:54,740 Yep, sure. So you know, in college I wasn't 137 00:08:54,740 --> 00:08:58,420 really sure the exact direction, but it was interesting. 138 00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:03,180 You know how you need like internships kind of your senior 139 00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:06,300 year. So even in the midst of all the 140 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:10,740 things that had happened with the accident, my major was 141 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:16,780 psychology with I think maybe it was a minor in some sort of 142 00:09:17,260 --> 00:09:20,020 religious studies. I don't, I'm not really even 143 00:09:20,020 --> 00:09:23,020 sure. But I know I needed essentially 144 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:28,620 2 internships to finish out the year and so I was approached by 145 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:32,060 by one of my professors who just said, hey, there's this thing at 146 00:09:32,060 --> 00:09:34,820 the local hospital, do you want to try it? 147 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:39,220 And the school only required 8 hours of internship, but this 148 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:43,060 was 120 hours and so when I interviewed for it. 149 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:45,900 That's more than what you needed. 150 00:09:45,940 --> 00:09:49,260 A lot more. Like, a lot more so. 151 00:09:49,260 --> 00:09:53,380 And they had never partnered with college students to do the 152 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:57,220 internship. They only partnered with those 153 00:09:57,220 --> 00:10:01,250 who had been through grad school and had graduated something like 154 00:10:01,250 --> 00:10:03,850 seminary. So I was a little bit of a 155 00:10:03,850 --> 00:10:07,210 Guinea pig. So I knew at the time the Lord 156 00:10:07,210 --> 00:10:10,290 wanted me to be with people and He wanted to. 157 00:10:11,330 --> 00:10:16,170 I did feel like in some way use my story of the accident, even 158 00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:19,650 though it was very, very fresh in that moment. 159 00:10:20,090 --> 00:10:24,170 Another part of of me is that I have and I only say this because 160 00:10:24,170 --> 00:10:29,470 it it resonates is, you know, I do have and have had some health 161 00:10:29,470 --> 00:10:34,790 issues all my life and so those three things I wanted for huge 162 00:10:35,270 --> 00:10:38,310 motivators, yes, huge motivators, absolutely. 163 00:10:39,070 --> 00:10:41,910 And and college. So the internship that you went 164 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:43,910 forward on that was kind of some of that? 165 00:10:44,030 --> 00:10:47,270 Yes, yes. So what I found it out to be was 166 00:10:47,310 --> 00:10:51,150 a internship at the hospital to be a chaplain. 167 00:10:51,870 --> 00:10:57,280 So I remember one of my first visits was, you know, with a 168 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,240 family. He had just had surgery and they 169 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,640 were, you know, a little upset about the surgery. 170 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,640 And I'll be honest, I had no clue what I was doing. 171 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,320 I was just told, here's the pager, go be with people. 172 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,160 And so I did. And but there's something about 173 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,480 that family and that visit that the Lord was in that room. 174 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,160 And I remember coming out of that room and saying this is 175 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,920 this is it. This is what the Lord has me 176 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:28,460 doing for the moment. And so from there I find out, 177 00:11:28,540 --> 00:11:32,820 oh, you can do this as a job, you can be a a chaplain as a 178 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:35,140 job. And so I did some more research 179 00:11:35,180 --> 00:11:38,740 and I knew my next step then was to go to seminary. 180 00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:41,780 So I finished the the internship and I thought, well, if I want 181 00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:44,740 to pursue this professionally, these are the steps I've got to 182 00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:47,900 take. So I went to seminary and 183 00:11:48,740 --> 00:11:54,300 specialized in pastoral care and counseling and so took a lot of 184 00:11:54,300 --> 00:12:00,010 classes on grief and how to be in those suffering moments with 185 00:12:00,010 --> 00:12:02,890 folks and then from there graduated. 186 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:06,850 And so in chaplaincy you have these certifications. 187 00:12:07,650 --> 00:12:09,210 So I'd already done the internship. 188 00:12:09,210 --> 00:12:12,650 One went to seminary. So the second one was that you 189 00:12:12,650 --> 00:12:14,930 had to apply for a thing called residency. 190 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:20,650 And so for that it's a year long program and I moved to Charlotte 191 00:12:20,930 --> 00:12:25,940 to complete that program. Then from there the Lord allowed 192 00:12:25,940 --> 00:12:29,220 me to complete a second year so that so that I could actually 193 00:12:29,220 --> 00:12:32,460 focus on end of life care with people. 194 00:12:32,740 --> 00:12:34,620 And this is all in the hospital setting, yes. 195 00:12:35,540 --> 00:12:40,180 So I spent two years in Charlotte doing primarily end of 196 00:12:40,180 --> 00:12:46,340 life care and work getting those certifications the Lord was 197 00:12:46,660 --> 00:12:49,380 putting on our hearts. So my husband and I that 198 00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:54,880 Charlotte was not our only move. Then he took us to Pittsburgh 199 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:00,160 where I learned the sun is not there and it does not shine. 200 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:03,400 And yes, it is here. But so he took us to Pittsburgh. 201 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,840 And in Pittsburgh I worked in Hospice. 202 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,760 So I was in Hospice care for two years up there. 203 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,560 And then, thankfully, the Lord brought us back to Greenville, 204 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:21,020 where the sun. And I worked at the hospital 205 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:24,740 here in Greenville as a pallet of care chaplain for 3 1/2 206 00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:26,900 years. And explain pallet of care for 207 00:13:27,020 --> 00:13:30,060 those that may not be familiar. Yes, so pallet of care. 208 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:33,900 So to palliate means to cloak to come around. 209 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:36,860 So a lot of folks, when they hear pallet of care, they 210 00:13:36,860 --> 00:13:40,140 immediately think end of life. Yes, that is a lot of 211 00:13:40,140 --> 00:13:45,940 situations, but it's not always. Ideally, it's a team of people 212 00:13:45,940 --> 00:13:50,110 who come around you and your family if you were to get a 213 00:13:51,270 --> 00:13:56,030 major diagnosis or eventually terminal diagnosis to help you 214 00:13:56,030 --> 00:14:00,750 walk through those stages of that diagnosis. 215 00:14:00,750 --> 00:14:06,710 So that entails a doctor, a nurse, social worker, chaplain, 216 00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:10,990 nurse practitioner to come around that family and that 217 00:14:10,990 --> 00:14:14,830 patient to help them with what they need, correct? 218 00:14:14,910 --> 00:14:19,090 Yes, it's a care team. And you know, one of the things, 219 00:14:19,210 --> 00:14:23,690 so if I'm doing the math right, that's 7 1/2 years in hospital 220 00:14:23,770 --> 00:14:26,570 slash palliative care, Hospice work. 221 00:14:27,570 --> 00:14:30,690 So that's a, that's a good little career, career there. 222 00:14:30,890 --> 00:14:35,090 And then you have an opportunity to come and basically do some of 223 00:14:35,090 --> 00:14:37,450 the same things here at Grace Church, Is that right? 224 00:14:37,570 --> 00:14:39,930 Yes. And so seems like you're a good 225 00:14:39,930 --> 00:14:42,810 fit for that, for that role. And from what I know, I've 226 00:14:42,810 --> 00:14:45,940 gotten to work. Alongside you for the last five 227 00:14:45,940 --> 00:14:47,540 years and known you a lot longer. 228 00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:52,340 It's just it has been nice to see how God used experience 229 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:55,660 professional career and then brought you into this 230 00:14:55,740 --> 00:14:59,300 environment where we we have some care structures already set 231 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:03,300 up in terms of care. You know, care groups, community 232 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:07,180 groups, just, you know, familial type relationships within the 233 00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:09,900 church. But yet we don't always know 234 00:15:10,180 --> 00:15:12,430 what to do. So we have a lot of energy, but 235 00:15:12,430 --> 00:15:13,870 we don't have a lot of knowledge is. 236 00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:18,510 That fair to say a lot of energy, not a lot of knowledge. 237 00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:22,150 So you've come in as a as a subject matter expert to then 238 00:15:22,150 --> 00:15:26,910 just kind of work and mold this, this clay that we have here in 239 00:15:26,910 --> 00:15:30,550 the local church. What have you seen over the last 240 00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:32,030 five years? You know, what are some areas 241 00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:36,950 that we're doing well and where, where do we need to step in and 242 00:15:36,950 --> 00:15:42,750 and grow in some areas? A lot of areas that I've seen 243 00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:48,230 doing well is, is the energy, the heart, the wanting to be 244 00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:54,150 with people, wanting to to do right by their brothers and 245 00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:57,590 sisters, you know, in different community groups and 246 00:15:57,590 --> 00:16:02,120 regeneration and grief support and reengage. 247 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,720 You know, there's there's so much heart there that that does 248 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:12,520 energize me so much willingness to just learn and be open with 249 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,040 what they feel like the Lord is calling them to do. 250 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,640 And so that that's been a really neat area. 251 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,440 I think when you said you know the the church has just grown a 252 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,040 lot lately and it's just grown really fast. 253 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,960 And I think we're entering into a stage that we've never had to 254 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:36,040 enter in before because the church has been around now for a 255 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,560 while and we're just starting to see new things. 256 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:45,720 And so how do we I guess prioritize our energies in 257 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,120 learning those new things and it not be reactive, but more 258 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,360 proactive. I would say, you know, like our 259 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,240 our community groups, you know that's where a lot of life 260 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,240 happens week in and week out. And you know helping leaders, 261 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,800 helping members, leaders and members to shepherd one another 262 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:13,839 when those situations happen like what to do, how to be there 263 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,359 working on just the Ministry of of presence. 264 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:24,560 I'm just learning how to be in the moment when that crisis 265 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,380 happens. We were talking earlier about 266 00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:29,940 the difference between empathy and sympathy, and I don't know 267 00:17:29,940 --> 00:17:32,020 if that's a chance to talk about that right here. 268 00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:35,740 But even as you, we have leaders here that are in situations 269 00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:39,100 where there is suffering, where they are connecting to people in 270 00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:42,180 their groups or just people and their families, and there's 271 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:44,900 there's a grief. I don't know if you could unpack 272 00:17:44,900 --> 00:17:47,060 some of what we were talking about earlier, but that was real 273 00:17:47,060 --> 00:17:48,860 helpful to me. Yeah, sure. 274 00:17:48,860 --> 00:17:54,750 So I definitely resonate with, you know, Romans 12. 275 00:17:54,790 --> 00:17:58,070 Rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn 276 00:17:58,510 --> 00:18:03,430 because to me that is that is being empathetic for folks. 277 00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:08,070 I think you can have a posture of sympathy where you hear about 278 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:11,710 something and and you think, gosh that's I hate that for 279 00:18:11,710 --> 00:18:15,790 them. But then empathy is really you 280 00:18:15,790 --> 00:18:20,480 are rejoicing with somebody who may have just gotten a new job 281 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,760 or new house when you know they've been struggling, or you 282 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,480 really are mourning with someone who has just gone through 283 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,400 something that that is part of your own story, or even 284 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,200 something that's not part of your story. 285 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,000 But being in that moment, of just being able to mourn with 286 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,720 them, you know, that's that's more empathy. 287 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,560 Taking what you think could be a feeling of that situation and 288 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,800 asking, you know, hey, that sounds really hard. 289 00:18:49,230 --> 00:18:54,350 That sounds like that's that's a hard situation or gosh, I would 290 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:56,790 be really sad in that, you know, what do you think? 291 00:18:56,790 --> 00:19:00,990 Are you are you sad, or are you feeling something else that 292 00:19:00,990 --> 00:19:06,910 right there is entering in and being able to, you know, mourn 293 00:19:06,910 --> 00:19:10,430 with them? So listening for verbal cues, 294 00:19:10,590 --> 00:19:13,590 following up with questions. So what we want to do I think in 295 00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:16,950 the last little bit here that we have together is we want to talk 296 00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:20,810 about some things to avoid. When we talk about how to be 297 00:19:20,810 --> 00:19:24,050 your best self and and suffer well with others and then some 298 00:19:24,050 --> 00:19:26,450 things to do, we're just going to kind of commingle those 299 00:19:26,450 --> 00:19:29,370 together, things to avoid and things to do. 300 00:19:29,650 --> 00:19:34,690 And so you gave an interesting example of when things to avoid 301 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:38,210 when we get empathy and sympathy confused. 302 00:19:38,210 --> 00:19:40,450 Can you talk a little bit about little bit about that and some 303 00:19:40,450 --> 00:19:43,250 of the exercises that you had to go through in your training? 304 00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:48,720 Sure, sure. So one thing that, and I know 305 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,640 that he was, you know, saying it out of the goodness of his 306 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,120 heart, but after the the accident, you know, we all had 307 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:00,240 to get kind of questioned and by the police and things like that. 308 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,040 And I had given my statement and then the cop looks at me and he 309 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,520 just smiles and he's like it's going to all be okay. 310 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:15,000 And I'm thinking maybe one day, but not today, you know? 311 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,290 And so I think. Learning about yourself in that 312 00:20:20,290 --> 00:20:25,170 moment of are you one that goes to want to fix? 313 00:20:25,450 --> 00:20:28,650 Are you a fixer? Do you want to immediately give 314 00:20:28,970 --> 00:20:33,410 a scripture and a 123 of how to get through a situation that. 315 00:20:33,810 --> 00:20:37,050 Those things may need to come, but maybe it's a little bit 316 00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:39,690 later. Maybe in that moment they just 317 00:20:39,690 --> 00:20:44,530 need you to hold their hand. I remember I visited one lady in 318 00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:49,180 the hospital and her husband had just had a stroke. 319 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:53,900 She was in the ER and I just came and I introduced myself and 320 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:57,220 I just sat down beside her, brought her a cup of water and 321 00:20:57,340 --> 00:21:02,340 and some hospital Graham crackers and she said thank you. 322 00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:05,980 And then she just grabbed my hand and would not let go for 323 00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:10,260 about an hour. And she didn't want to talk. 324 00:21:10,790 --> 00:21:15,030 She just wanted somebody present with her and ended up. 325 00:21:15,030 --> 00:21:18,790 I saw her a couple days later and she said that was the most 326 00:21:18,790 --> 00:21:22,790 godly thing that you could have done for me because you were 327 00:21:22,790 --> 00:21:26,190 just there. And I think that is sometimes 328 00:21:26,190 --> 00:21:29,790 what we what we miss because we're so busy. 329 00:21:29,790 --> 00:21:33,030 We want to rush. We just want to like check off. 330 00:21:33,070 --> 00:21:36,670 Oh, have I checked on so and so. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 331 00:21:37,150 --> 00:21:41,530 And I think a lot of times we just need to slow down and 332 00:21:41,530 --> 00:21:46,450 realize these are people that maybe the Lord has entrusted us 333 00:21:46,450 --> 00:21:49,850 to care for. And so those are, you know, kind 334 00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:52,690 of extreme examples, ones that I've seen. 335 00:21:53,210 --> 00:21:59,770 But even you know, are you somebody that gets nervous when 336 00:21:59,810 --> 00:22:02,970 somebody in your community group starts talking about something 337 00:22:02,970 --> 00:22:06,730 you're not comfortable with? Or you think, what if they say 338 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:11,850 something that I don't know how to handle, or they say something 339 00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:16,690 that is just not how you were raised or part of your culture 340 00:22:16,690 --> 00:22:20,810 or part of your background, You know, do you freeze up or that? 341 00:22:20,810 --> 00:22:26,780 Or do you start chatting a lot and start saying things that are 342 00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:30,220 more about you than about that? Would be a coping mechanism. 343 00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:33,860 It's how you're dealing with your uncomfortability or anxiety 344 00:22:33,860 --> 00:22:35,180 and stress. Yeah, absolutely. 345 00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:40,540 Did it take you a while to figure out how to get aware? 346 00:22:40,580 --> 00:22:43,580 Like, I mean you. You talk about this idea of 347 00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:47,100 getting clear, becoming aware of yourself in this moment. 348 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:49,890 Like, did it take you? In these eight years that you 349 00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:53,930 were in these in this business of work that you had, yeah. 350 00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:56,450 It do a lot of wrong things. I mean like yes. 351 00:22:56,730 --> 00:22:58,850 So one thing. How do you get aware, Jennifer? 352 00:22:58,850 --> 00:23:01,770 Right, Yeah. Is no one. 353 00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:04,810 Sometimes you can do all the right things and it's still 354 00:23:04,810 --> 00:23:10,290 going to not be the right thing. So in our training as chaplains, 355 00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:13,330 we had to write these things called verbatims and we would 356 00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:19,160 list out the conversations that we would have with a patient and 357 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,400 we even had to pick verbatims or patient visits that we didn't 358 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,840 feel good about. So that way we could get 359 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,800 assessed and supervised on how to do better maybe the next 360 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,040 time. So you would write down, you 361 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,000 know, chaplain patient, chaplain patient. 362 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,920 And it was the whole conversation of how you felt 363 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,030 like or as much as you could remember from the conversation. 364 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:46,430 And then in parentheses out beside what the chaplain would 365 00:23:46,430 --> 00:23:51,710 say, you'd have to put down what you were thinking, feeling, 366 00:23:52,110 --> 00:23:56,590 seeing, smelling, whatever it may be in parentheses. 367 00:23:56,990 --> 00:24:00,150 So some of it was as simple as okay. 368 00:24:00,150 --> 00:24:04,750 This person has called me for a visit right before lunchtime. 369 00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:08,110 I'm really hungry. What kind of chaplain would they 370 00:24:08,110 --> 00:24:10,870 want? Even though I'm hungry and I had 371 00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:15,620 to think, gosh, all right, how am I going to be with this 372 00:24:15,620 --> 00:24:18,380 person when I'm starving and haven't eaten? 373 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:20,820 Yeah, because you're not your best self in that moment, 374 00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:21,780 correct. It's like the Snickers 375 00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:23,740 commercial, right? Yes, you turn it. 376 00:24:23,740 --> 00:24:26,300 Yes, I definitely turn into somebody. 377 00:24:26,420 --> 00:24:28,700 I don't know who that would be, but. 378 00:24:29,260 --> 00:24:31,180 Maybe that's why I always see you as snacks. 379 00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:35,260 That could be it. I honest, Yes, because I just 380 00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:38,140 asked my husband. I get very angry sometimes. 381 00:24:38,140 --> 00:24:40,620 But, but what you're describing is just basic. 382 00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:46,310 Human function right right and and sometimes we we over 383 00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:51,430 spiritualize the whole process and just forget what do we 384 00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:53,790 thinking, what are we feeling, what are we seeing, what are we 385 00:24:53,790 --> 00:24:56,310 smelling? And and just we have to, we have 386 00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:58,110 to put ourselves in that position and we have to be 387 00:24:58,110 --> 00:25:00,910 honest about ourselves and are we being our best self and are 388 00:25:00,910 --> 00:25:02,710 we catching others at their best self. 389 00:25:03,130 --> 00:25:05,690 So you you mentioned like you being hungry and then you share 390 00:25:05,690 --> 00:25:09,250 a story about just like what the, what the patient was was 391 00:25:09,250 --> 00:25:11,850 feeling. You can't go in and and and 392 00:25:11,850 --> 00:25:15,930 really minister to a patient if their physical needs, you can't 393 00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:17,770 minister. Well if their physical needs are 394 00:25:17,770 --> 00:25:20,290 being met, if someone's hungry or someone's thirsty, they're 395 00:25:20,290 --> 00:25:22,210 going to have a hard time really listening to you, right. 396 00:25:22,370 --> 00:25:24,130 Someone's in pain. They're going to have a really 397 00:25:24,130 --> 00:25:27,530 hard time listening to you. And so why? 398 00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:32,280 Why do we forget that, Jennifer? I think a lot of times we can 399 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,640 easily make it about ourselves. We easily think, well, I've 400 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,080 given up my time to come here and yet you don't. 401 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:45,080 You're not ready to talk to me. There would be times that I 402 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,360 would visit with people, and in that moment, they wanted to hear 403 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,800 from the Doctor Who was about to give them either the really best 404 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,920 news of their life or the really worst news. 405 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,040 And I come in and they don't want to talk to me. 406 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,030 Not that they're disregarding me as a, as you know, a person or a 407 00:26:03,030 --> 00:26:06,870 visit, but their mind is more on what the doctor's going to say 408 00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:10,390 in that moment. And so at that point I had to 409 00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:14,270 say, you know, it's not about me, it's about what they are 410 00:26:14,270 --> 00:26:17,830 wanting in this moment. And that's with, you know, I'm 411 00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:22,670 using a lot of patient examples, but that's with community group, 412 00:26:22,670 --> 00:26:27,090 that's with your neighbor. You know, in that moment they 413 00:26:27,130 --> 00:26:32,050 may be needing something that that's not about you. 414 00:26:32,250 --> 00:26:34,130 Right. And I think that's one of the 415 00:26:34,130 --> 00:26:38,930 downsides of having a high level of responsibility is that we can 416 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:43,770 also think too much of ourselves and that our responsibility and 417 00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:48,170 the actual outcome or change that we can bring is far greater 418 00:26:48,770 --> 00:26:50,370 than what we can actually do. Sure. 419 00:26:50,850 --> 00:26:54,490 And I've noticed and guilty of this many, many times. 420 00:26:55,210 --> 00:27:00,050 That we think our words are so important when rarely if the 421 00:27:00,050 --> 00:27:02,810 three of us around the table can think about the times when we 422 00:27:02,810 --> 00:27:06,610 were at our worst. We barely remember what anybody 423 00:27:06,610 --> 00:27:10,850 said, but we do remember if they were there. 424 00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:15,050 And a lot of the physical presence like you talked about 425 00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:18,690 the we we underestimate physical touch of the holding of the 426 00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:22,410 hand, the moving in close to listen so someone doesn't have 427 00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:27,230 to speak. Loudly, difficult, hard things, 428 00:27:27,310 --> 00:27:31,630 sad things. Grieving well with someone you 429 00:27:31,630 --> 00:27:36,110 know, sitting, sitting close to them, even having Kleenex to 430 00:27:36,110 --> 00:27:39,630 offer someone who's crying. You know, I and I think about 431 00:27:39,630 --> 00:27:44,350 the idea of of Jesus Incarnate. Jesus came in flesh, right? 432 00:27:44,350 --> 00:27:46,990 He put on flesh. And when we sit. 433 00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:51,390 And suffer well with someone. The number one thing is just 434 00:27:51,390 --> 00:27:55,070 that we're present, that we're we're in the flesh, that we're 435 00:27:55,070 --> 00:27:59,550 there. Because our greatest fear is I 436 00:27:59,550 --> 00:28:01,230 don't even know that it's suffering. 437 00:28:01,350 --> 00:28:03,630 I think it's suffering alone. Yes, I. 438 00:28:04,070 --> 00:28:08,110 Think it's just being alone. And when we can be there with 439 00:28:08,110 --> 00:28:13,470 someone, all we have to do, the first thing we have to do is we 440 00:28:13,470 --> 00:28:17,150 have to be. And I think if we could just 441 00:28:17,150 --> 00:28:21,950 lower our own expectations as far as what we have to say, what 442 00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:25,350 verses we have to share, what we have to pray, if we could just 443 00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:29,470 be present, then a lot of this other stuff takes care of 444 00:28:29,470 --> 00:28:30,470 itself. Would you agree? 445 00:28:30,670 --> 00:28:34,030 Absolutely. And I think also being willing 446 00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:39,150 to say I don't know, right? And I think being willing to 447 00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:43,970 have a humble posture of not only just being so when you 448 00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:48,610 don't know what to say, letting the person know, I don't know 449 00:28:48,610 --> 00:28:50,730 what to say. This is really hard. 450 00:28:51,170 --> 00:28:54,410 But I'm here with you, I'm sitting next to you. 451 00:28:54,450 --> 00:28:59,690 I'm in the moment with you. And Diane Langberg from the book 452 00:28:59,690 --> 00:29:03,290 Suffering in the Heart of God. She does a lot of counseling 453 00:29:03,290 --> 00:29:09,050 with trauma survivors. And her whole posture is, how 454 00:29:09,050 --> 00:29:13,450 can she, with each visit, with each person, bear the fragrance 455 00:29:13,450 --> 00:29:17,130 of God? And that has been, you know, 456 00:29:17,170 --> 00:29:20,250 especially the last month or two, to be honest, has just been 457 00:29:20,730 --> 00:29:24,090 really resonating with me. How is it that I can just bear 458 00:29:24,090 --> 00:29:28,810 the fragrance of God so that the person knows the Lord is with 459 00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:32,250 them through me through my visit? 460 00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:34,450 Yeah. That's good, yeah. 461 00:29:34,450 --> 00:29:38,450 And I think about the 2nd Corinthians 1 passage that part 462 00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:42,210 of God's sovereign design of our lives is. 463 00:29:42,570 --> 00:29:47,050 When we go through struggles and suffering which are unavoidable, 464 00:29:47,770 --> 00:29:51,450 that God comforts us in our troubles so that we can give 465 00:29:51,450 --> 00:29:54,690 comfort to others like that is part of the divine design. 466 00:29:55,210 --> 00:30:01,210 And so I think when we miss, miss that and and not 467 00:30:01,210 --> 00:30:04,770 necessarily because we're unwilling to to enter into that, 468 00:30:04,770 --> 00:30:07,890 but maybe when we mistake what type of comfort we're actually 469 00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:10,280 bringing. That's when we lose the 470 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,200 opportunity to to really have that Ministry of Presence that 471 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,320 you're talking about. Sure. 472 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,080 And I think it's also making sure we are responding to the 473 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,640 Holy Spirit. A lot of times when I've maybe 474 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,320 said something in community group, then I've shared 475 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,600 something really hard. I can tell the Holy Spirit is 476 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,960 working through somebody because maybe I'll get a text that just 477 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,600 says hey, thank you for sharing last night. 478 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,780 That was. I know that was really hard. 479 00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:43,860 I'm praying for you. And that right there means the 480 00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:48,300 world because I was seen, I was heard and I felt like I wasn't 481 00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:52,780 alone in that moment. And so a lot of times, you know, 482 00:30:52,780 --> 00:30:56,380 especially leaders in our group, we don't know what to say. 483 00:30:56,420 --> 00:30:59,740 I mean, we were just in the moment. 484 00:30:59,740 --> 00:31:03,380 We have a group of maybe 10 to 12 people that were trying to 485 00:31:03,380 --> 00:31:07,080 shepherd and be with with the act of listening to Holy Spirit 486 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,680 and following up with people is is key. 487 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,760 Because the followup actually shows the intentionality. 488 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,200 I mean, and I don't think there's anything wrong in the 489 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,680 moment like a couple of things that I've been, I've done poorly 490 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,480 in the past that I'm trying to, I'm trying to get better at is 491 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,120 instead of saying, hey, I'm going to pray for you like in 492 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,960 the moment, just praying, knowing that it doesn't have to 493 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,200 be a long prayer. It doesn't have to be the most 494 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,610 eloquent prayer. Because it is the act of showing 495 00:31:35,610 --> 00:31:38,090 dependence on God that it really matters. 496 00:31:38,530 --> 00:31:43,050 And then, even at the risk of being awkward, if we're having a 497 00:31:43,050 --> 00:31:47,770 text conversation, I will text a prayer to them and just say, 498 00:31:48,010 --> 00:31:49,890 hey, I'm praying this for you right now. 499 00:31:49,890 --> 00:31:51,410 Again, it does not have to be long. 500 00:31:51,410 --> 00:31:54,050 It does not have to be certainly perfect. 501 00:31:54,050 --> 00:31:58,770 It just has to be heartfelt and then giving them the permission. 502 00:31:58,890 --> 00:32:01,610 I even even put this in there. Hey, no need to respond. 503 00:32:02,230 --> 00:32:04,350 Like, I'm not doing this to get something from you. 504 00:32:05,070 --> 00:32:08,550 So, like thinking about you today, praying for you. 505 00:32:08,550 --> 00:32:11,190 No need to respond. Here's what I'm praying for you 506 00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:12,630 today. No need to respond. 507 00:32:12,790 --> 00:32:15,630 Here's a verse that I'm praying or I'm thinking about, I want to 508 00:32:15,630 --> 00:32:17,830 share with you. You don't have to respond like 509 00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:19,550 you don't have to. I'm trying to care for you. 510 00:32:19,550 --> 00:32:21,590 You do not have to feel like you need to care for me, right? 511 00:32:22,150 --> 00:32:26,130 That's good you talked. With the this idea of practice 512 00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:28,210 and suffering well with others. We've talked about 513 00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:30,730 selfawareness, we've talked about bearing the fragrance of 514 00:32:30,730 --> 00:32:32,330 God. We've talked about listening to 515 00:32:32,330 --> 00:32:36,690 the Holy Spirit, just praying for others in the moment. 516 00:32:36,690 --> 00:32:40,050 What are some other things that we can do to help us as leaders 517 00:32:40,090 --> 00:32:42,770 care for others? Well, sure. 518 00:32:42,890 --> 00:32:48,730 You know, I would just say being willing to enter in, being 519 00:32:48,730 --> 00:32:54,540 willing to say almost to kind of to yourself of just like okay 520 00:32:54,860 --> 00:32:59,260 Lord, I I don't know how to be with this person, but be with my 521 00:32:59,260 --> 00:33:04,940 words and my actions and being willing to to look people in the 522 00:33:04,940 --> 00:33:12,020 eye and enter in. I would say to just maybe text 523 00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:15,380 somebody, like we were just talking about and saying, hey, 524 00:33:15,380 --> 00:33:17,100 I'm about to go to the grocery store. 525 00:33:17,460 --> 00:33:21,480 I'll pick you up some things. What do you need? 526 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,280 And I'll just drop them off. You don't even have to see me or 527 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,480 see my face. I just want you to know I'm. 528 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,120 I'm already heading there. Might as well get you something 529 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,360 as well. You'll never regret doing that. 530 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,920 And that's what the Lord wants. He wants our hearts. 531 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,240 He wants us to see, you know, how are we being guided in that 532 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,560 moment and how are we listening to him? 533 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,960 You know, they may say no, I don't need anything. 534 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,760 They may say no thank you, but at least in that moment you have 535 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,920 you've tried to enter in. Yeah, I think a lot of our 536 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,680 church sees it as their responsibility, but I don't know 537 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,960 that we really see it as an opportunity because I think 538 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,920 we're afraid. We're afraid of, of messing up, 539 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,639 doing something wrong, making things worse. 540 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,960 And a lot of that is about us, like you said. 541 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,760 So to have a humble posture and really see suffering. 542 00:34:19,469 --> 00:34:23,190 Just as the Apostle Paul said as an opportunity to comfort with 543 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:26,630 the comfort that we have received and it is, it is a 544 00:34:26,670 --> 00:34:30,949 great chance to be the body Incarnate, the love of Christ, 545 00:34:31,469 --> 00:34:37,350 and ultimately help God get the glory in whatever situation. 546 00:34:37,670 --> 00:34:38,790 Right? Right. 547 00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:43,389 Can you help land the plane with us and and just talk a little 548 00:34:43,389 --> 00:34:45,870 bit about end of life. I know that was a a topic that 549 00:34:45,870 --> 00:34:47,909 we wanted to discuss if if you could just. 550 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,360 Share a little bit more about that we were talking about 551 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,320 earlier. Yeah, so a lot of a lot of folks 552 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,480 I have have been with have been at the end of their lives and a 553 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:05,200 lot of folks just want you to be with them, be present. 554 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:10,360 As we have talked about, it was rare that we got into any kind 555 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,960 of scripture theological debate. I remember actually one of my 556 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:22,280 professors, I wasn't doing so well and learning Greek and and 557 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:27,560 I was upset about it and he was like, listen, go get your C pass 558 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,920 the class. Nobody at the end of their life 559 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,520 is going to ask you to translate something in the Greek language. 560 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,080 And so that was so helpful because they they just wanted 561 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,440 more of my comfort and my presence and not necessarily 562 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:48,910 this big spiritual statement. A lot of folks there's, there's 563 00:35:48,910 --> 00:35:54,790 a book called Four Things That Matter Most by Ira Bayak and a 564 00:35:55,630 --> 00:35:58,230 lot of folks at the end of life just want to hear, you know 565 00:35:58,230 --> 00:36:03,750 please forgive me, I forgive you, thank you and I love you. 566 00:36:03,870 --> 00:36:06,310 They just, they want to relive good memories. 567 00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:08,950 They want to make sure their loved ones know how much they 568 00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:11,270 love them. They want to make sure that 569 00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:17,560 their loved ones are going to be okay and they want to know that 570 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,840 their presence is going to matter to them in that moment. 571 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,840 So it's been, it's been an honest, like a holy moment, a 572 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,920 holy moment to be in that ministry of presence, to just 573 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,560 sit there and be with somebody as they relive some of their 574 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:42,660 best memories or even share stories or wisdom with you in 575 00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:44,700 the moment. Once you repeat those four 576 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:46,140 things that matter most. Sure. 577 00:36:46,540 --> 00:36:49,300 Please forgive me. I forgive you. 578 00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:55,180 Thank you and I love you so. Some good words and awesome to 579 00:36:55,180 --> 00:36:59,100 hear your story and grateful for your expertise here at our 580 00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:01,580 church and thoughts and ideas around practice. 581 00:37:01,580 --> 00:37:03,900 I've taken a lot of notes. I know this will be very helpful 582 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:07,340 for our leaders. So as we wrap up this episode, 583 00:37:07,340 --> 00:37:09,940 we want to thank you for joining us and if you have additional 584 00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:13,220 questions or you want. Just to access resources, check 585 00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:15,700 out our podcast page that's located in the show notes. 586 00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:18,580 And we were hoping that Jennifer, you could pray for us 587 00:37:18,580 --> 00:37:21,300 and pray for our leaders and pray for us as a church, that we 588 00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:24,820 would just suffer well and so would you be willing to do that? 589 00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:28,380 Yeah, absolutely. Dear Lord, I thank you just for 590 00:37:28,380 --> 00:37:32,020 today. I thank you for just who you are 591 00:37:32,020 --> 00:37:36,060 and how you reveal yourself, even just through simple acts to 592 00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:39,700 God. Lord, we thank you that you care 593 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:44,750 for us today and tomorrow, and you are the same yesterday, 594 00:37:44,750 --> 00:37:48,470 today, and forever. And so, when we are feeling 595 00:37:48,510 --> 00:37:52,590 unsettled because of suffering that may be in our lives, dear 596 00:37:52,590 --> 00:37:57,950 God, I pray that you will give us unfailing strength to bear 597 00:37:57,950 --> 00:38:01,550 it. I pray that our leaders and 598 00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:06,910 those who are in shepherding situations will be able to put 599 00:38:06,910 --> 00:38:11,610 aside any anxious thoughts while they are shepherding one 600 00:38:11,610 --> 00:38:14,810 another, and that they will allow you to speak through them 601 00:38:15,130 --> 00:38:18,450 and to be a vessel of comfort and peace. 602 00:38:18,850 --> 00:38:22,370 Lord, I just thank you for all that you do and who you are to 603 00:38:22,410 --> 00:38:24,570 us. We pray these things in Jesus 604 00:38:24,570 --> 00:38:24,890 name. Amen. 605 00:38:25,130 --> 00:38:25,650 Amen. Thank. 606 00:38:26,410 --> 00:38:26,530 You.