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He's powerful enough and good 
enough to once again figure out 

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how to weave some of those 
things that even are broken, 

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some of the suffering that we 
experience for our own good. 

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And I think for a lot of us, we 
we've experienced that. 

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We've seen how, OK, this really 
difficult thing that happened in

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my life that really was just an 
expression of evil in the world.

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God has found a way to use that 
to help me look more like His 

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Son and experience Him in 
different ways. 

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Well, welcome back to the Grace 
Church Members Podcast. 

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My name is Scott. 
I'm your host today and I have 

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two first timers here in the 
studio. 

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So finally glad we got both 
Davis Craig and Bobby Rawlerson 

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here around the table. 
And we're talking student 

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ministry. 
We're talking some recent 

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content, particularly around 
asking hard questions. 

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And so welcome guys, thankful 
that you're here. 

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Introduce yourselves. 
And yeah, just tell us a little 

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bit about your connection to 
student ministry and even your 

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connection to to the Grace 
Church beyond that. 

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So, Davis, we'll start with you.
Yeah, I, I work here. 

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I work at our Pelham campus, but
I'm here today because I also 

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spent a good bit of time 
thinking about content that are 

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students here centrally. 
Yeah. 

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And work with a team of folks 
that work on all of that because

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honestly, we we produce a 
handful of things kind of for 

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every series from Fusion all the
way up through Forge. 

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So, so I get to spend a good bit
of time thinking about and 

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working on all of that, which is
kind of how we arrived our 

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questions. 
And you've been in the student 

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ministry space for a while now. 
Yeah, it'll be a decade in a 

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couple. 
Of months. 

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Wow. 
On staff. 

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Yeah. 
So that's crazy. 

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Yeah. 
So you're getting old. 

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Yeah, that you. 
So you've seen this process play

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out a few different times. 
I mean, we're running three 

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different student ministries, 
lots of series throughout the 

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years and we'll jump into why 
this specific one. 

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But you've you bring a lot of 
thought, a lot of knowledge, a 

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lot of experience to this. 
Tell us a little bit about your 

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family real fast. 
My wife Madison and I've been 

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married for eight years ish, 
have three kids, 5, 3 and almost

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2. 
So we're in it right now, and we

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care about student ministry 
being good about a decade for 

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now. 
Well, that's kind of what I was 

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establishing. 
Like you've got, you've got pre 

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student ministry kids at home. 
I mean, you're, you're, you've 

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been around it, but you're 
seeing where it's going. 

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Bobby, what about you? 
Tell us a little bit about your 

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background, your relationship to
the church. 

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Sure. 
Yeah. 

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I started at Grace 2018 in 
January. 

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That was when I my family and I 
moved up here and I'm married. 

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My wife Maggie and I have 5 
kids. 

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Johnny is 14, Ellie is just 
turned 11, Annie is 7. 

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And we have who else? 
My goodness. 

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It begins to be difficult to 
name all of the children and all

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the ages. 
Ollie is 4. 

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And then we have an 18 month old
named Sammy. 

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So yeah, I'll be like, I don't 
know, like 60 when he, you know,

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is, is leaving the house. 
So we have a lot of kids in our 

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house. 
We also do care that student 

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ministry is good. 
And I serve at our Harrison 

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Bridge campus. 
Discipleship in groups is I'm 

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one of the pastors there. 
But recently I've also started 

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to take on some content 
responsibilities centrally. 

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And so I've been working with 
Daniel Moore and a team to, to 

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help put together some things 
like the Essentials Acts series 

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that we're we're kind of 
launching at some of our 

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campuses. 
And then I've been working with 

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Davis to talk about student 
ministry in a lot of different 

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ways. 
And so this is one of the cool 

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things that I was able to do was
to actually teach one of these 

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messages for our students on 
hard questions. 

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And so we've just been 
dialoguing about that for a 

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while now, so. 
Yeah. 

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No, that's great, Bobby. 
That's really great. 

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And again, we're glad to have 
you, have you in the studio. 

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We're going to have you back 
because you've got you've got 

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some knowledge on a number of 
different areas that we want to 

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talk about. 
But you both mentioned student 

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ministry being good. 
What makes a good student 

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ministry? 
That's a good question having 

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honestly, this series in and of 
itself kind of sums up what I 

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want a student ministry to be, 
which is not afraid to talk 

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about real things, to address 
hard questions. 

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Because in preparation for 
speaking to students about hard 

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questions, I, I came across a 
study that basically said there 

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are roughly, you know, I'm not 
sure what roughly 7 out of 10 

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students after they get out of 
high school would claim that 

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they had really difficult 
questions that they never asked 

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while in high school. 
Interesting. 

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And about, I would say only one 
or two of those would actually 

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say something. 
So really at the end of the day,

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if you kind of do the math, you 
got half the students that are 

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in student ministry have hard, 
difficult questions that they're

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asking, but they're not actually
verbalizing that because they 

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don't feel like they're in a 
place where they have either 

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leaders or people that care or 
have answers or want to address 

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those things. 
And so I think having a student 

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ministry where vulnerability is 
on the table, where you have 

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leaders that care and you are 
able to address real things that

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the students are processing 
through and thinking about, 

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that's really for me, what makes
a good solid student ministry. 

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Obviously with a a focus on the 
gospel and making sure we're 

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pointing people to Jesus, but we
certainly want to address the 

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real life issues that students 
are facing. 

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Yeah, we won't meet them where 
they're at. 

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Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

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Davis, what would you add to 
that? 

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Yeah. 
I mean, I think, you know, we, 

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we're not confused about the 
fact that we have less than 2% 

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of the students waking hours 
generally that we're with them 

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for a week. 
And so for us, I mean, we're 

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just, we're trying to maximize 
that 2% towards a lot of the 

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things that Bobby's talking 
about. 

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But you know, parents have to 
ideally be the primary disciple 

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maker of their, of their 
student. 

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And so for us, we're trying to 
create community, local church 

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training ground. 
And that looks different for a 

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5th and 6th grader, looks 
different for a 7th and 8th 

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grader. 
It looks different for a 9th 

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through 12th grader. 
We're trying to say, OK, this 

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this 5th grader, right? 
They're, they're concrete 

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thinkers. 
They're on the verge of some 

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abstract thought like they're 
developmentally changing. 

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And that process is going to 
continue really for till they're

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like 30. 
But for the time that we have, 

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then we're trying to say, OK, 
how do we train towards what the

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local church is, what a person 
that's a part of a local church 

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does that's a follower of Jesus?
What, what does their life look 

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like and how do we start giving 
concrete examples of that that 

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then start to stretch into more 
abstract things? 

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Because Christianity is it's, 
it's a lot of abstract thought. 

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So we're trying to be on the 
front end of that with our 

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fusion students. 
We're trying to work through the

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dark middle school years of 
24/7. 

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And then by the time we get to 
Forge, we really are have an eye

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towards the future of, OK, this 
person is going to launch into 

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the real world, whether that's 
college, workforce, military, 

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something else, right? 
How is that person going to 

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leave Forge? 
Having good biblical thoughts 

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about what is the local church, 
what's biblical community? 

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How do I interact with the 
Bible? 

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What is the gospel? 
And none of that is foreign to 

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them. 
So they're like, yeah, I'm 

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moving to this new town to go to
school and first thing on the 

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list is I got to find a local 
church that's healthy enough for

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me to be a part of, start giving
my life away at, and be taught 

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the truth and, and all of those 
things. 

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So we really are kind of 
progressively working from a 

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fusion student all the way up 
through a forge student towards 

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towards that end, yeah. 
So we're building, we're 

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building, we're meeting students
where they are. 

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We're trying to understand the 
developmental phase both 

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physically, mentally, 
emotionally and spiritually. 

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OK, so then let's talk about the
role of both leaders and 

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parents. 
We'll we'll, we'll end with 

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parents as we get into 
particular topic here of hard 

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questions. 
What makes What makes a good 

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student ministry leader? 
A good student ministry leader 

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is a mature Christian, you know,
And so I mean a big part of what

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all of us need is we need people
that are beyond us spiritually 

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that can help challenge us, 
encourage us, care for us in 

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certain moments that are 
difficult. 

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And so a good leader is, is that
they're they're a follower of 

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Jesus who is taking seriously 
the responsibility that, you 

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know, an organized expression of
the Kingdom of God, which we 

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call the local church has 
spiritual mothers and fathers, 

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spiritual brothers and sisters 
and spiritual children. 

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And for our leaders like these 
are their spiritual children 

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where they are mentoring, 
they're challenging and 

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encouraging with the truth of 
Scripture. 

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They're just in space with 
students. 

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And so a good leader is 
obviously able to build a 

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relationship with a high school 
or middle schooler, which can be

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difficult at times, and but a 
good leader is able to do that. 

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And then they're just another 
voice of truth. 

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Ideally, they're not the only 
voice of truth, right? 

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Their parents are a voice of 
truth as well, but they're a 

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voice of truth from God's Word 
and the life of a student. 

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And I mean, we've all been 
there. 

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How helpful it can be for for us
to hear the same thing from 

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multiple different people 
because our natural tendency is 

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to disregard one person saying 
one difficult thing, but all of 

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a sudden two people are saying 
how I treat my sibling is 

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probably not representative of 
what Jesus would want. 

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And I'm like, huh, Are both 
people wrong? 

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Yeah, probably. 
No. 

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But I mean, it's just, it makes 
it a more, you know, it's just, 

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it's kind of how we work. 
Yeah, more humans, more volume 

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of truth in students lives. 
Yeah, that's that's a big goal. 

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Bobby, what do you think when 
you think about your, your, your

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kids? 
We'll talk about, like I said, 

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parents in just a second. 
What? 

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What kind of leaders have really
made an impact your students 

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lives? 
Sure. 

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I mean, I think that, you know, 
parents and leaders, as Davis 

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said, are both integral to a 
student's development, 

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spiritually speaking. 
I think that for leaders, it's 

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just the willingness to be 
available, the ability that 

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leaders have to just be there in
the moment, ready and willing to

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have conversations when those 
things come up. 

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We've all probably tried to pull
something out of a teenager. 

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It can be pretty difficult. 
I think a lot of the time it's 

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just the be with factor where 
you're just alongside them, 

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you're doing things with them, 
you're worshipping with them, 

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you're having conversations, 
you're there when they don't 

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want to say something, but 
you're also there when you when 

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they don't want to say 
something. 

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And so I think it's creating a 
culture where it's not foreign 

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for students to come up to a 
leader and ask a difficult 

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question or just say, hey, I'm 
really struggling with this. 

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And the leader doesn't freak 
out, doesn't necessarily always 

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have a perfect answer, but is 
willing to engage in the 

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conversation so that the student
knows that they are cared for, 

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they're loved, and that asking 
questions isn't something that 

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they need to refrain from doing.
Right, which goes back to your 

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your previous data points as you
mentioned. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
It seems to me if we really want

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to have an effective student 
ministry, we probably should do 

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it between like 10:00 PM and 
11:30 PM When when, when those 

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high schoolers really get ready 
to talk. 

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But that's not super practical, 
speaking as a dad who's raised, 

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raised three of them. 
While we have you here, Davis, 

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it's we don't want to date this 
episode too much, but it is 

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retreat season. 
Just tell us a little bit about 

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the goal of retreats and again, 
and then we have three different

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ministries ranging over 7 years.
But what do we hope to 

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accomplish through these 
retreats? 

231
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,840
Yeah. 
You know, retreats have 

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00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,600
historically just been an 
incredibly fruitful thing for a 

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bunch of our students for 
different reasons. 

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I mean, our fusion retreats, 
like we're just, we're 

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normalizing a little bit of the 
fact that being a part of God's 

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family is not boring. 
Like there's, there's a like a 

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more full version of life that 
even on this side of eternity 

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that Jesus is willing to give 
us, I think. 

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And, And so for our fusion 
students, like a lot of it is 

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that what we're trying to, you 
know, compel them with truths of

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the gospel. 
And, and I know we're going to 

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00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,800
get into some content thoughts 
in a second too, but I mean, 

243
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,440
we're very intentional about 
what we're teaching on retreats,

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especially to our middle 
schoolers, because there's not a

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00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,040
ton that has changed about a 12 
year old over the last 20 years 

246
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:22,840
there. 
There are some things, right, 

247
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especially with smartphones and 
different things, but 

248
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,920
developmentally, their brain is 
still in the same place that it 

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00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,280
was. 
And so, you know, every other 

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00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,560
year, like at least once in 
fusion, you're going to get the 

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gospel over the course of a 
retreat. 

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00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:39,200
And once the other year you're 
going to get an understanding 

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00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,600
and explanation about why our 
key relationships matter and 

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00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,720
like how those things play out. 
And so, and that's, I mean, 

255
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,240
repetition is helpful. 
That's what we teach throughout 

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00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,960
the year to a fusion students in
both years that they're there. 

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00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,480
So the content doesn't matter as
we get away on retreats, but 

258
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there's something about 
interrupting the routine, the 

259
00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:02,600
flow of life, where that kind of
disruption creates softer soil 

260
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,120
that God can really work in. 
And I mean, that's especially 

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00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,680
true for our high schoolers and,
and middle schoolers is over the

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00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:13,520
last few years, we've started 
collecting funds on the bus on 

263
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:19,080
the way up. 
And just that disruption, how 

264
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:25,520
quickly our brains can except 
some, some new rhythm that's 

265
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,520
probably a healthier rhythm on 
the back end of disconnecting 

266
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:34,360
from a phone and just being in 
space with other people is it's 

267
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,960
fascinating. 
I mean, the detox, the detox is 

268
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,200
real for much of our students. 
And so on Friday night, like 

269
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,800
everybody's kind of, you know, 
jittery because they haven't had

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00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,720
their phone for a couple hours. 
But then by Saturday night, you 

271
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,960
know, we're 24 hours in. 
Everybody is free in a way that 

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00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,320
I, and they would all admit. 
I mean, for the most part, they 

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00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,920
would all admit that no, this is
this is different in a good way.

274
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,960
And maybe I shouldn't have my 
phone all the time with right. 

275
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,560
But I mean, even that, like just
how often can you create that 

276
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,840
kind of moment? 
Like it really does take, Hey, 

277
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,320
we're going to go away for a 
weekend. 

278
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,200
That's right. 
And and do this retreat where we

279
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,680
get a chance to, to do some 
different things and expect that

280
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,480
God can meet us in those moments
and, and teach us new things. 

281
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:22,240
And so like I said, it's it's 
proven to be year every year one

282
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,560
of the most fruitful things that
that we do and. 

283
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,960
Disrupting the normal routine 
and creating space like that in 

284
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,960
of itself is a worthy goal. 
Then what we do in that space, 

285
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,520
tons of freedom. 
But we try to incorporate lots 

286
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,120
of elements of fun, lots of 
elements of community around. 

287
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,120
There's the existing group, the 
larger group sometimes, well, we

288
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,480
have campuses that are all 
together, so we're seeing 

289
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,600
friends from, you know, 
different schools and different 

290
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:59,400
things like that. 
And then the content is very, 

291
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,400
very strategic. 
Yeah. 

292
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,160
Just real quickly as you move up
through 24/7 and forge, what's 

293
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,880
what's a forge goal look like as
it's different than maybe a 

294
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,520
fusion goal. 
On on retreats On retreats. 

295
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,240
Specifically, yeah. 
You know, I think that we are 

296
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:24,280
working with budding adults and 
Forge and so that's, that's 

297
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:31,360
different than fusion and even 
sometimes 24/7 students that are

298
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,040
on the front end of, OK, what is
it? 

299
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,160
What does it mean to be a young 
man or young woman made in God's

300
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,600
image and all that. 
So with Forge, I mean, we are, 

301
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:45,120
we are starting to treat them 
like we would want to treat in a

302
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,360
young adult. 
That's a part of the church 

303
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,280
because in most cultures 
throughout history, those they 

304
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,800
are adults, you know. 
And so we're we're really not 

305
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,840
trying to pull any punches from 
a high school student with the 

306
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,160
truth. 
We're trying to meet them where 

307
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,320
they're at. 
I mean, a couple of years ago, 

308
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,040
one thing I think about which we
ended up hijacking it for our 

309
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,720
whole church was self-made. 
That's that we spent a whole 

310
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:17,160
weekend saying, OK, here is here
is what your culture is telling 

311
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,960
you to believe, which is that 
you're the most important thing.

312
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,319
You're the source of truth. 
And that's where you know 

313
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:30,360
fulfillment comes from is you 
fully being you. 

314
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:32,440
And the Bible just doesn't teach
that. 

315
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:39,200
And so, you know, we are, we are
very much trying to tackle front

316
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,920
edge cultural realities that our
students are facing and forge in

317
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,800
a way that actually in some ways
directs are it can at least 

318
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,720
direct our adult series. 
That's a good point because it's

319
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,520
a it's like a real live testing 
ground with ideas that kids are 

320
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,600
engaging with and being honest 
about their engagement even 

321
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,600
though they might not fully form
their questions. 

322
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,840
But, you know, just if you want 
to know what a kids thinking, 

323
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,600
just, you know, ask him and 
he'll tell you. 

324
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,080
Maybe ask him a few different 
times, two different ways. 

325
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,040
But you learn from those 
students, and then you start to 

326
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,640
apply that across different age 
group seasons of life. 

327
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,960
Yeah, I've seen that. 
That's been really, really, 

328
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,160
really kind of cool to watch. 
And so maybe even our content 

329
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,360
here might have some expression 
in the future in our adults. 

330
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,480
We don't know. 
Because I mean, generationally 

331
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,880
we are constantly working with a
new generation. 

332
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,680
That's what C Ministry is doing 
is that, you know, we are 

333
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,280
constantly working with the new 
generation that happens to be 

334
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,680
the next generation of the 
church. 

335
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:47,840
And so our ability to, you know,
share an influence, share the 

336
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,520
gospel influence with truth and,
you know, compel them towards a 

337
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,160
vision of, of the Bible, of why 
the Bible is even important is, 

338
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,880
is a huge deal because that's, 
that's in some way what we're 

339
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,760
going to give our next 1020 
years to until they are giving 

340
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,120
their next 1020 years to the 
next generation, you know. 

341
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,800
Well, let's let's talk to 
parents specifically for just a 

342
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,040
second. 
And what do we want? 

343
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,000
Our parents. 
What do we want our parents to 

344
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,040
know? 
What are we asking them to do in

345
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,800
relationship to engagement with 
their students and how that fits

346
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,360
with the overall goals of the 
student ministry at the churches

347
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,000
campuses? 
Yeah. 

348
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,480
I think you said something 
earlier that is helpful, the 

349
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,080
idea that we're building like we
are builders. 

350
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,720
And I think it's important to 
know that we really are builders

351
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,640
in student ministry, not 
necessarily fixers, which can be

352
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,800
difficult because as a lot of us
know, and even some of us have 

353
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,840
experienced like the middle and 
high school years can be a 

354
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,600
moment that is far from God in 
our lives. 

355
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,800
And for parents, I mean, and I 
remember my parents, I mean, 

356
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,280
there's, there's a certain 
amount of control that they want

357
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,920
to have that really God is just 
saying, Oh, you're, you're 

358
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,880
actually not in charge of that. 
And so there's just this reality

359
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,680
that's playing out where then, 
you know, as a parent, we want 

360
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,320
to constrict more and. 
Say, well, no, I mean, if you 

361
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,880
just in church more than all of 
this is going to work out. 

362
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,960
And no, you have to be a part of
this small group and you have to

363
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,640
go on this retreat. 
And sometimes God totally meets 

364
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,880
students in that space and then 
rescues them, but other times he

365
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,760
doesn't. 
And I think the thing that can 

366
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,000
be helpful to to remember is 
just that the church is 

367
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:36,400
primarily at least student 
ministries, primarily built 

368
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,520
around building and being able 
to say, OK, this is what 

369
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,240
community looks like. 
This is what confession looks 

370
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:45,640
like. 
This is what repentance looks 

371
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,640
like, more so than being the 
source of salvation, because 

372
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,160
really only God can do that. 
So I do think there's something 

373
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,880
about that to just be able to 
note and remember, which is 

374
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,880
that, you know, God is God is 
the one that saves. 

375
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,040
I mean, that's part of the hard 
questions that even we tackled 

376
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,080
with our students is, well, 
who's in tweed gets to choose? 

377
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,640
Do we get to choose? 
Does God get to choose? 

378
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,160
And I think it's important for 
us to remember God's ultimately 

379
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,480
in charge. 
We're just all trying to 

380
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,320
faithfully obey. 
And I think even for our 

381
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,000
parents, just knowing that we we
don't get to control the outcome

382
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,840
of salvation for our student. 
And that's tough because I mean,

383
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,960
I'm thinking about it with my 
three kids and out and I'm like,

384
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,200
OK, God, I really want to 
control where all this goes in 

385
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,840
their lives, but I can't. 
All I can do is continue to try 

386
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:35,320
to obey the things that you've 
asked me to do and pray that you

387
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,120
will do the same for them. 
And I have responsibility as a 

388
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,760
parent and all of that. 
But that doesn't guarantee any 

389
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,880
outcome. 
And I think student ministry is 

390
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,320
the same way as there's no 
guaranteed outcomes in this, 

391
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,200
right? 
We are, we are trying to obey 

392
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:53,040
God as best as we can and put 
ourselves in position to be 

393
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,280
given the truth. 
And so I do think there's, 

394
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,200
there's something about that 
that feels important to note and

395
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,880
and notice. 
And I mean, I think back to the 

396
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,880
2% thing is just that we have 
such a limited window of time 

397
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,120
that we're able to influence. 
And so for parents to remember 

398
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,680
that like, OK, like we're second
string. 

399
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,360
You know, we really, we, we can 
come in the game for a second 

400
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:17,760
and maybe give a boost of energy
and offense and that's great. 

401
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,600
But we can't necessarily be in 
the trenches day in and day out 

402
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,320
because you can. 
Yeah, which is a grind that's a 

403
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,680
lot of hard work. 
And so I think that even as we 

404
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,320
talk about leaders, I'm like 
parents, y'all, y'all are there 

405
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,960
for a small group leaders, you 
know, first and foremost, y'all 

406
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,760
are frustrating and being able 
to feel that responsibility and 

407
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,640
not totally want to outsource 
that to to other people. 

408
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,720
Other people are going to be a 
huge part of that, especially as

409
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,040
you're I mean for your kids 
entire life, that's going to be 

410
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,720
a huge part. 
And that's why community is 

411
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,320
important. 
But recognizing that OK, 

412
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,520
there's, there's a limited 
contribution that can be made 

413
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,400
outside of our home. 
So that means we the the 

414
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,480
pressure is on for us. 
Yeah, that's a good word. 

415
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:07,680
And parents, be encouraged. 
And just just day by day, make 

416
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,880
sure that you're understanding 
and living out the gospel and 

417
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,680
then just doing the best as you 
are communicating that kind of 

418
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,080
truth. 
A lot of it is through asking 

419
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,880
questions and a lot of it is is 
realizing where we are trying to

420
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,000
control. 
And I think some of that control

421
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:27,640
is why students don't feel like 
they can ask questions because 

422
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,800
the parents aren't really giving
them the freedom to ask those 

423
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,160
kinds of questions because these
kinds of questions, these are 

424
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,440
difficult questions that don't 
necessarily lead to controlled 

425
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:37,640
outcomes. 
Right? 

426
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,760
So we've teased it out a good 
bit here. 

427
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,520
Tell us exactly these 4 
categories. 

428
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,680
And this is fresh as we just 
finished this teaching. 

429
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,800
Sure. 
With Forge, where? 

430
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,480
Where did we go and why do we 
decide to go there? 

431
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,320
Yeah, there were 4 main 
categories where we were asking 

432
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,720
questions that we knew students 
were interested in hearing the 

433
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,440
answers. 
Making decisions was a big one. 

434
00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:05,120
Brokenness of the world, right? 
The problem of evil, which has 

435
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,560
been around for a long, long 
time, which is one of the 

436
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,280
toughest questions that 
Christians have to have to deal 

437
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,320
with an answer doubt and 
tension. 

438
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,280
You know, what do we do when we 
have doubt and tension in our 

439
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,160
relationship with God? 
How do those things work 

440
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,440
themselves out and salvation and
free will. 

441
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,080
Like how do those two things 
that seem to be a contradiction 

442
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,720
actually go together and, and 
what does that look like? 

443
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,440
So those are the categories that
we we had that we dealt with in 

444
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,960
terms of the hard question 
series and really. 

445
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,920
Just small, just small little 
questions. 

446
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,440
Yeah, just so really simple, 
easy questions. 

447
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,520
Making decisions, brokenness of 
the world, doubt, intention and 

448
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,280
salvation and free will. 
And out of all the questions, 

449
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:47,960
tell tell us a little bit about 
how we kind of came to those 4. 

450
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,360
Sure. 
Well, Michaela Sanders, who 

451
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,680
works at Harrison Bridge with 
me, she does student ministry 

452
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,080
there. 
She also helps with content 

453
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:57,800
centrally for all of our 
campuses. 

454
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:03,320
And she really had this idea of 
tackling difficult questions 

455
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,360
that students have. 
And so she put some work into 

456
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,960
surveying a lot of our our high 
school students. 

457
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,440
And these were the categories 
that kept coming up. 

458
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,280
And so these were the four areas
where students just made it 

459
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,120
really clear we have big 
questions in these areas that we

460
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,120
would love for you to address in
a in a teaching series. 

461
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,200
Awesome. 
Shout out, Michaela for that. 

462
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,480
And then what are we hoping to 
accomplish particularly around 

463
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,440
destigmatizing these questions? 
Yeah, I think for a lot of the 

464
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,200
students, they need to again, be
in a setting where they feel 

465
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,480
comfortable asking difficult 
questions, questions that they 

466
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,280
might not feel comfortable 
asking. 

467
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,600
They need to have a culture 
where that's actually just part 

468
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,200
of how things operate. 
But I also think it's important 

469
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,640
for our parents. 
We were talking about our 

470
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,680
parents earlier and their role 
in discipling their their 

471
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,960
students. 
And I think it's, it's 

472
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,440
interesting because, you know, 
you get out of high school, you 

473
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,200
get into college, you know, it's
still kind of appropriate for 

474
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,520
you to ask some of those big, 
hard, difficult questions. 

475
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,480
But then as adults, you get to 
this place where you're like, 

476
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,240
can I still ask that question? 
Because I'm, I'm not sure that I

477
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,040
actually have an answer. 
And I still have thoughts about 

478
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,000
those things. 
And, but we feel kind of awkward

479
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,680
doing it because we're like, 
we've been a Christian for a 

480
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,760
long time. 
And so the analogy that I, that 

481
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,400
I've used is it's like, you 
know, going to, you know, to 

482
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,360
church every week and you see 
the same person, yeah, but you 

483
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:31,840
can't remember their name. 
There becomes a certain amount 

484
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,760
of time that passes where it's 
like, OK, it's way too awkward 

485
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,120
for me to ask that person their 
name. 

486
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,480
And I feel like that's the same 
kind of situation our parents 

487
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,040
get in where they feel like, 
I've been around the church for 

488
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,280
so long, I should have already 
thought through the problem of 

489
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,560
evil and not have to ask that 
question or what does God's will

490
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,160
look like and how do I make 
decisions? 

491
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,920
Like I, I feel like I shouldn't 
be at a place where I have to 

492
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,320
ask those questions. 
But what we've realized is that 

493
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,640
in the same way that students 
have these questions, parents 

494
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,080
have these questions as well. 
Yeah. 

495
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,560
So no statue of limitations on 
asking questions what you're 

496
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,880
saying? 
So no, no, that's good. 

497
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,920
I love that analogy too, because
that happens a lot. 

498
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,520
So all right, well, we're not 
going to try to give a thesis on

499
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,120
each of these. 
But what we while we're here and

500
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:23,120
we're in this dialogue and this 
is fresh, just thought we could 

501
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:26,840
take a few minutes and hit the 
bullet points on on each of 

502
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,840
these topics. 
And this is just a fly over. 

503
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,200
And if you're interested more, 
we encourage you to ask ask 

504
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,760
questions. 
I'm assuming our content that we

505
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,280
taught is available. 
Where's that available, Davis? 

506
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,240
It's available on our website. 
Yeah, so you can find our, you 

507
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,520
can find this series on our 
website under Forge Teaching. 

508
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,960
So Bobby, let's look at the 
first one on making decisions. 

509
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,560
Give us some thoughts you have 
around that. 

510
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,800
Sure. 
I think that it's a pretty 

511
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,720
common question, particularly 
for high school students. 

512
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,080
They're making a lot of 
decisions. 

513
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,240
And so the question is really 
how can I tell whether I'm 

514
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,600
following God's lead or my own 
desires when I'm making these 

515
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,120
decisions? 
And I, I think there's a really 

516
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:12,880
good book that I've read that's 
been helpful for a lot of 

517
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,800
students called Just Do 
Something by Kevin Deyoung. 

518
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,840
And that book was, was really 
monumental in terms of helping 

519
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,960
students understand, OK, what 
does God's will look like? 

520
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,560
Because it, it can become 
tricky. 

521
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,480
Yeah. 
And I think the place to start 

522
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,640
with this question is with just 
the nature of God's will. 

523
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,240
I think God's will is not 
primarily about finding the 

524
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,080
right path or discovering the 
the perfect career or the 

525
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,240
perfect relationships or the 
location where I should live. 

526
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,840
I think it's about becoming the 
kind of person who reflects 

527
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,960
Christ in whatever situation 
you're in. 

528
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,680
So in in Romans chapter 12 
verses one through 2, those it's

529
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,360
a, it's a well known passage 
about, you know, worshiping the 

530
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,040
Lord. 
And it doesn't say discover 

531
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,800
God's specific plan for your 
life. 

532
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,800
It actually says be transformed 
by renewing your mind and then 

533
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,480
you'll discern what God's will 
is. 

534
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,800
And so I think that's the key is
I remember when I was in high 

535
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,600
school, actually a guy came in 
and he was well meaning, but he 

536
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,320
drew a stick figure on the 
board. 

537
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,280
Then he drew God the top right 
of the board, and he drew a 

538
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,080
straight line from the stick 
figure to God. 

539
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,280
Right? 
The stick figure was me. 

540
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,400
Yeah. 
And then he was like, you're 

541
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,880
going along. 
You're on God's will. 

542
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,280
But what happens if, like you 
walk away from God and like 

543
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,960
where the X was on the line was 
like my wife. 

544
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,040
And so it, it terrified me 
because I'm like, if I step away

545
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,320
from the Lord for one second, I 
might miss my wife or, you know,

546
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,920
the decision on where I should 
go to college. 

547
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,480
And so that got me thinking 
like, what does this actually 

548
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,280
look like? 
And I think the illustration 

549
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,240
that has always stuck with me is
kind of like driving on a dark 

550
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,680
Rd. 
Like your headlights only go so 

551
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,200
far, right? 
And that's the same type of 

552
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:04,800
thing. 
When I think about God's will, 

553
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,840
it's like he's going to give you
enough to see, you know, 100 

554
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,480
yards down the road, but he's 
not going to light the entire 

555
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,640
thing for you. 
And so it's more about trusting 

556
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,960
him than it is about coming to a
point where you have all of the 

557
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,880
answers. 
Because we think we want the the

558
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,840
high beam highlight and 
everything. 

559
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,000
What would happen if we actually
saw all that? 

560
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,320
Oh gosh, I mean it would be 
overwhelming. 

561
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,440
No, we couldn't. 
We couldn't even comprehend it. 

562
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,240
No. 
And there's part of the the 

563
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,280
relationship that's being 
cultivated. 

564
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,000
It's funny, you mentioned 
Romans. 

565
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,440
I just we were teaching that in 
Nicaragua recently and this is a

566
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,240
big question that those pastors 
were asking. 

567
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,440
And we had the same conversation
about the will of God from 

568
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:52,920
Romans 12 and just that idea 
that we want like rules or path 

569
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,120
because we we long for clarity 
when really God has given us a 

570
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,200
relationship. 
Yeah. 

571
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,280
And I love that headlight 
analogy because it's really 

572
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,800
saying, hey, just the 
relationship is there. 

573
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,360
I'm going to give you the next 
step. 

574
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,480
Let's cultivate that 
relationship and let's keep 

575
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:07,880
moving. 
Yeah, that's great. 

576
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,280
Yeah, I think not getting bogged
down in like there's a, there is

577
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,600
one decision that I have to 
make. 

578
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,800
I think God, and this might 
sound a little, a little 

579
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,920
strange, but it's like, I don't 
think that God necessarily cares

580
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,960
that every single decision that 
you make is the exact one that 

581
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,640
he has for you. 
There was a study a long time 

582
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,960
ago that I read where it took a 
playground for kids and they had

583
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,640
a fence around it. 
They took the fence down and 

584
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,160
they noticed that when they took
the fence down, all of the kids 

585
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,760
would stay really close to the 
playground equipment, right? 

586
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,600
And when they put the fence up, 
then the kids would like venture

587
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,360
off and go play because they 
were bound. 

588
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,880
And so I think that God's Word 
is very clear that there are 

589
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,600
things that are part of his will
and there are things that are 

590
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040
not. 
And so if your desires are going

591
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,760
against God's Word, then that 
that's the problem, right? 

592
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,560
God is never going to lead you 
to cheat or lie or manipulate or

593
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,200
justify something that's clearly
sinful. 

594
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,440
But I do think there's room to 
move. 

595
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,920
Like I think that there's that 
boundary of the fence around the

596
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,600
playground. 
And so you can make decisions 

597
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,680
and and take certain risks and 
steps and be in God's will, but 

598
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,640
it doesn't have to be that 
linear straight line that we 

599
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,520
were talking about. 
Yeah, I'll try not to ask this 

600
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,920
at with with each of these 
topics, but how, how was that 

601
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,640
received by the students? 
Do you feel like that's 

602
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,680
resonating? 
Yeah, I think so. 

603
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,040
I mean, it's, it's that idea 
that's just there's there's 

604
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,840
small things in front of you 
that you can do every day and 

605
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,480
that God's got the big picture. 
Like there's some freedom in 

606
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,800
that. 
And I think for, you know, some 

607
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,000
of our students, this is AI mean
there's a lifelong challenge for

608
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,480
a lot of us, right? 
Absolutely. 

609
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,200
So for some of those there, it's
just good for them. 

610
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,880
They have a primer. 
So now the next time that 

611
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,880
something happens where they're 
like, oh gosh, I'm frozen 

612
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,120
because I don't know what to do.
Hopefully God can the Spirit can

613
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,280
bring up something from this 
series and be like, OK, it's OK.

614
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,920
I don't have to panic the this 
decision and that decision, 

615
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,160
neither one is simple. 
So there's probably some freedom

616
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,120
in the playground. 
Yeah, hopefully some freedom. 

617
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,560
Yeah, that that would be the 
word that I would would hope 

618
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,760
for. 
And because it's very different 

619
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,120
than the the anxiety that a lot 
of our students feel and a lot 

620
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,200
of their students feel that 
anxiety about pleasing God and 

621
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,280
staying in God's will. 
And so that's a, that's a good 

622
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,200
word. 
Anything else you want to add on

623
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,440
that, Bobby? 
I mean, there's a few different 

624
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,160
things that I think would be 
helpful, but for the most part, 

625
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:42,760
I think it's just about trusting
him and and focusing on being 

626
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,520
the person that he has created 
us to be. 

627
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,200
Right? 
To continue to be discipled, to 

628
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,400
continue to grow in your 
relationship with the Lord, to 

629
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,680
continue to be the kind of 
person who reflects Christ no 

630
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,920
matter what situation you find 
yourself in. 

631
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,400
I think if we worried more about
that and really were we were 

632
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,840
taking God's word and kind of 
that was penetrating our heart 

633
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,159
on a regular basis, then that's 
going to be the lamp to our 

634
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:09,800
feet. 
Like that's going to guide our 

635
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,440
path. 
That's, that's when the whole, 

636
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,199
the whole path is not going to 
be lit up, but enough will be 

637
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,280
lit up so that we are able to, 
to continue to follow where the 

638
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,920
Lord's leading. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

639
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,440
Go read Psalm 1 and there's some
of a lot of us, There are 

640
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,880
hundreds of folks right now who 
are duty doing, reading through 

641
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,320
the Scripture. 
And that's where we start. 

642
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:30,840
We start in Genesis one. 
We start in Psalm One. 

643
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,159
The idea in Psalm 1 is that we 
delight in the law of the Lord. 

644
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:37,320
We meditate on it, and then 
we're able to develop deep, deep

645
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,679
roots and be like a tree planted
by the river. 

646
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:45,639
And so, yeah, stay near to God 
and his will that that formula 

647
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:47,080
becomes a lot easier. 
So sure. 

648
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,080
Good, good word there, Davis. 
Broken, brokenness of the world.

649
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,560
Yeah, let's let's go ahead and 
admit Bobby is way more 

650
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,240
qualified to speak on all of 
this than I don't know if I was 

651
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,120
qualified to teach these, but I 
did so. 

652
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,240
You do live. 
You live in the world, so you 

653
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,720
have you're familiar with the 
brokenness. 

654
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:07,960
Yeah, Davis, you can handle this
is pretty, pretty simple. 

655
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,800
Did you ever? 
Why does evil exist if God is 

656
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,160
all powerful and all good? 
Right, Right. 

657
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,760
So, so this was, I mean, this is
a, this is a tough one because 

658
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:24,200
it, it does not take many days 
breathing to recognize that this

659
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,160
world is not right. 
And you know, it just doesn't, 

660
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,200
it doesn't take me just read the
local news and you can find 6 or

661
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,600
7 stories a week where you're 
like, how did this person that 

662
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,840
didn't deserve anything get this
death or this sickness or this 

663
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,200
what I mean, it just does not 
take long for us to recognize 

664
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,120
that something seems complicated
about this. 

665
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,040
And so as we tackled this idea 
of why, why is the world broken?

666
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,600
God's good, all of that. 
I mean, there's a few things to 

667
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:01,000
recognize. 1 is that God created
the world good, and it's sin 

668
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,000
that actually breaks the world. 
And who who brought sin into the

669
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,240
world? 
Humans did. 

670
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,800
And so it's like we created this
mess. 

671
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,800
God didn't create this mess. 
He gave us freedom to make 

672
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,280
decisions. 
He didn't make us robots where 

673
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,920
we're just operating a code that
means we love him and worship 

674
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,200
him because then that wouldn't 
be real love or real worship, 

675
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,080
like there wouldn't be any 
meaning in that. 

676
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:33,040
So he gave us choice, but that 
choice created this possibility,

677
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,080
right, That we could choose 
evil. 

678
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,240
And so I think there is this 
thing to see Genesis three, OK, 

679
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,080
who, who, who kind of broke the 
world. 

680
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,360
We we actually broke the world. 
And then what you see from that 

681
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,520
moment on is that God actually 
has this commitment to remaking 

682
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,800
it. 
He's not good for it to stay 

683
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,480
broken forever. 
And while he didn't create it, 

684
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,960
he can work to he's he does a 
couple of things that we see 

685
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,280
throughout the scriptures. 
He can work to use things that 

686
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,480
are not good for our good. 
Like he figured out a way to 

687
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,440
say, OK, this isn't great, but I
actually can use this for your 

688
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,040
benefit even though the world is
broken and you broke it. 

689
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,920
So there's this actually 
incredibly powerful thing about 

690
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,640
that. 
But then ultimately, like he 

691
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,960
says in Genesis 3, that he kind 
of alludes to the fact that, no,

692
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,440
I'm, I'm really going to solve 
this. 

693
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:24,320
Problem. 
I got a plan. 

694
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,400
And and then we get all the way 
to the end of Revelation and 

695
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,160
it's like, OK, no, the plan has 
come to fruition. 

696
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,160
Like all things are new. 
Weeping, gnashing of teeth, all 

697
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,520
that all that's gone. 
The brokenness is here no more. 

698
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,360
And so there's, there's just a 
handful of things where you see,

699
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,280
OK, we, we were responsible for 
breaking this. 

700
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,680
It's like my 5 year old, she, 
she did room time one time we 

701
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,640
walk in there, she had found a 
marker at some point and we had 

702
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,080
some new artwork on our walls. 
And the point is, is that like 

703
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,520
she had freedom and within some 
boundaries to go do something, 

704
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,000
but she chose to do something 
that was destructive and not 

705
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,800
helpful. 
Well, then for me, like that was

706
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,480
a, that was a clean wall, right?
It's a lot of work to find the 

707
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,320
right paint. 
We got a magic as we ran out of 

708
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,960
that paint, got to get the 
paintbrush out and got to, you 

709
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,880
know, protect the floor. 
Like that's what God has been 

710
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,320
doing ever since is that is a 
bunch of work to fix the the 

711
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,400
broken wall, the jacked up wall.
So, so that is what he's been 

712
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,760
doing and he's powerful enough 
and good enough to once again 

713
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,920
figure out how to weave some of 
those things that even are 

714
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,800
broken, some of the suffering 
that we experience for and good.

715
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,280
And I think for a lot of us, we,
we've experienced that. 

716
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,440
We've seen how, OK, this really 
difficult thing that happened in

717
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,920
my life that really was just an 
expression of evil in the world.

718
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,000
God has found a way to use that 
to help me look more like his 

719
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,320
son and experience him in 
different ways. 

720
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,760
So. 
I love that you, you start with 

721
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,760
the biblical story because I 
think that's the place to start 

722
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,360
with this question. 
Because I think a lot of times 

723
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,480
people believe that Christianity
just kind of offers this type 

724
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,000
philosophical formula, but it it
doesn't what Christianity offers

725
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,360
is it offers a story. 
And so the world obviously 

726
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,240
created good like you mentioned,
but then evil entered not as 

727
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:17,520
something that God created, but 
as as a distortion of good and 

728
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,320
trying to like wrap my mind 
around that. 

729
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,440
I think of, I think of like a 
parasitic type relationship or 

730
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:30,440
even even like rust, Like rust 
doesn't exist without metal. 

731
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,360
So really evil is a privation of
good. 

732
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,160
Like if there was no metal, 
there would be no rust, right? 

733
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,880
And so because there's good, 
there can be evil, but God is 

734
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,600
not the one that created the 
evil, but he's the one that's 

735
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,000
going to then take it, allow it,
but he doesn't endorse it, if 

736
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,040
that, if that makes sense. 
So I do like the fact that we 

737
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,600
started with the the biblical 
story rather than going straight

738
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,440
to kind of like philosophical 
conversation out of the gate. 

739
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,080
Well, and even thinking about 
the character of God right after

740
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,280
that event in Genesis 3, you 
know, there's consequences for 

741
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,800
sin and then there's a plan to 
deal with it. 

742
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,320
Right, Romans. 5 And that's 
where we get just the the the 

743
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,400
new Adam in Romans 5, in Christ 
in the first gospel in Genesis 

744
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,520
chapter 3, and just the story of
Joseph. 

745
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,560
Again, thinking through where a 
lot of a lot of our church is 

746
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,720
right now, reading through the 
Scripture in Genesis, Joseph, 

747
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:26,200
clear example of what was meant 
for evil, God turned for good. 

748
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,560
And so we can see a lot of those
examples throughout Scripture. 

749
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,560
Yeah, those are big ideas, guys.
It sounds like you did a really,

750
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,000
really good job. 
But all about anything else. 01 

751
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,800
Other thing I think that's 
important to mention is that 

752
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,040
obviously evil and suffering are
real, and we see that, as Davis 

753
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,240
alluded to, every day and the 
evil is devastating. 

754
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:51,600
I think God doesn't minimize 
that, but he's not powerless and

755
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,600
he's not indifferent. 
I think the the word we're 

756
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,320
looking for is he's patient. 
So why does he allow this to 

757
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,960
continue? 
In Second Peter 319, that 

758
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,000
passage reminds us that God 
delays judgment because he 

759
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,320
desires repentance. 
Like he could end all of the 

760
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,280
suffering, the evil in the 
world, but that would require 

761
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,880
judgment. 
And he's patient and desires all

762
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,800
people to repent. 
And so there is a, a piece to 

763
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,320
this word. 
Like, I don't know how long that

764
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,520
that patience is going to, to 
last. 

765
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,840
That's not our call. 
That's not information that we 

766
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,880
get. 
But I do think that when the 

767
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,920
question is why does God allow 
this? 

768
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,240
He, he allows it in in a sense, 
because he's patient and he 

769
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:34,640
wants people to repent. 
Yeah, from the evil that they've

770
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,120
turned to. 
And I think finding that, 

771
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,840
finding that balance in that 
tension, because a lot of our 

772
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,000
high schoolers, they're going 
through difficult things. 

773
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,840
Yeah. 
They're going through the 

774
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,040
effects of the brokenness of the
world. 

775
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,240
They're going through 
disappointment, you know, 

776
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:56,920
disease, sickness, death. 
I mean, they're, they're 

777
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,640
they're, they're living life as 
these emerging adults. 

778
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,880
Like we were talking about 
specifically, I'm thinking about

779
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,320
our sixteen 1718 year olds. 
And I'm also I'm just have this 

780
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,840
picture you know, of we talked 
about getting desensitized to 

781
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,640
things, but are are kids that 
are going to public high school 

782
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,400
like they're walking through 
metal detectors every day when 

783
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,480
they go into high school. 
And they're they're just that 

784
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,760
they're living with the reality 
of the brokenness of the world 

785
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,040
all all around them. 
And for our leaders to be really

786
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,120
empathetic with these questions.
Sure. 

787
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,600
Because of the effects of sin in
the lives of everyday students 

788
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,720
and not try to come up with 
trite answers that that don't 

789
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,320
that don't really solve the 
problem. 

790
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,560
Yeah. 
And I think going back to what 

791
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,720
you just said, like go to the 
scriptures to both define the 

792
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:53,040
problem, talk about the 
solution, and part of that 

793
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,800
solution is found in this 
ongoing relationship and 

794
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,440
intention with God being 
sovereign and whatever his 

795
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:01,720
eternal plan is. 
Yeah. 

796
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,880
And and then having the comfort 
of of not having to do it alone.

797
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,560
I think that's that's a big 
part. 

798
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,080
So it's our third topic is about
doubt intention. 

799
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,680
And and sure, the brokenness of 
the world contributes to to some

800
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,640
of that doubt intention. 
It's not the only thing that 

801
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,080
does. 
But Bobby, how did you, how did 

802
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,160
you kind of handle that? 
Yeah, this was the message that 

803
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,720
I that I taught for our forge 
students was on doubt and 

804
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,760
tension. 
And I looked specifically at Job

805
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:33,240
chapter 42, verse 7 and I I 
really kind of unpacked job the 

806
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:36,560
entire book quickly succinctly 
for the students. 

807
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:42,200
But I I remember starting just 
with a story of of my own one 

808
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,320
from when I was in high school. 
I had a, a good friend named 

809
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,000
Elaine who, who passed away 
unexpectedly. 

810
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,320
She was driving to work, a guy 
coming the other direction had a

811
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,960
heart attack, swerved in her 
lane and and she passed away on 

812
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,720
the scene. 
And so that to me was the 

813
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:03,040
definition of pointless. 
Like she's 16 years old. 

814
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,280
She has her entire life ahead of
her. 

815
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,120
If that if that man's heart 
attack would have happened 30 

816
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,360
seconds before, 30 seconds 
after, she still would be here. 

817
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,360
And so that began the process 
of, of me kind of just shoving 

818
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,840
difficult questions and doubt 
and tension down because I 

819
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,680
didn't really feel like I had a 
place to talk about it. 

820
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:23,880
And I used the illustration of a
beach ball. 

821
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,160
Like, it's possible for you to 
get into the swimming pool and 

822
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,440
hold a beach ball underwater. 
Like, it's not difficult. 

823
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,760
But over time, like you, you 
move your hands at all and that 

824
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,960
thing is going to going to 
explode to the surface. 

825
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,680
Yeah, it's going to, it's going 
to come to the surface. 

826
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:40,000
And for me, that happened when I
was in seminary. 

827
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,600
I had the kind of a crisis of 
faith because of all of this 

828
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,960
doubt and tension that I had 
been shoving down trying to 

829
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,240
manage these, you know, these 
beach balls, so to speak, under 

830
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:49,800
the water. 
And I just couldn't do it 

831
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,320
anymore. 
And they just all came to the 

832
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,000
surface and I began to 
understand, like, obviously just

833
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,000
silence isn't the answer. 
Not talking about doubt, 

834
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,840
intentions is certainly not the 
answer. 

835
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,280
That's the beach ball approach. 
That's never going to work. 

836
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,400
But for our students, what I 
wanted them to see is #1A story 

837
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,640
in Scripture that we have with 
the person of Job who did 

838
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:18,160
nothing wrong, right, did not do
anything to deserve what, what 

839
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,720
he walked through. 
That was actually the result of 

840
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:24,880
Satan going before the Lord, 
saying, you know, God saying, 

841
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,240
have you considered my servant 
Job? 

842
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:28,600
He, the only reason he follows 
you is because you're, you know,

843
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,280
you give him everything he 
wants, right? 

844
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,120
Like that's easy. 
And so everything was stripped 

845
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,960
from him. 
And what was fascinating to me 

846
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,960
is, as I read through the whole 
book of Job, just in preparation

847
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,880
for that talk, is that you get 
to the end and of course you 

848
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,960
hear Joe being very raw with 
God. 

849
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,040
And then you hear Joe's friends 
who are talking a lot about God.

850
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,720
And their theology is very 
simplistic. 

851
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:52,120
It's like good people get good 
things, bad people get bad 

852
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,480
things, so you must have done 
something. 

853
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,160
Right. 
Well, and you. 

854
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,840
Yeah, how often does that 
theology creep into our? 

855
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,400
Our thoughts. 
Oh, absolutely. 

856
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,560
And so what's interesting is 
when you get to the end of Job 

857
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:09,080
chapter 42, verse 7, God makes 
it very clear, like I'm angry 

858
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,840
with your friends because they 
did not speak accurately about 

859
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,320
me. 
But then he says, but Job did 

860
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,760
speak accurately about me, which
was kind of mind blowing because

861
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:23,200
Job does not mince words. 
He, he is, you know, the day of 

862
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,960
my conception, I wish you would 
just like basically throw it 

863
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,200
into utter darkness. 
I mean, he was just, it was 

864
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,320
rough. 
It was rough. 

865
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:34,200
I mean, you see him just weeping
before the Lord sack off and 

866
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,000
ashes, like the whole, the whole
deal. 

867
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:41,360
And the reason I think that God 
said that he actually spoke 

868
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,800
accurately about him is because 
Job refused to walk away from 

869
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,560
God in terms of the 
conversation. 

870
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,520
He was speaking to God. 
And So what I kind of laid out 

871
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,520
for the students is that there 
are three ways that we can 

872
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,960
really deal with doubt and 
tension. 

873
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,000
There's the silence, there's the
beach ball approach. 

874
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,200
There's you can talk about God, 
which a lot of people do, right?

875
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:01,480
That's what I was doing in 
seminary. 

876
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,000
I was doing a lot of talking 
about God. 

877
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,440
And that can sound really 
spiritual, religious, 

878
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,880
theological. 
Problem is I wasn't doing a lot 

879
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,000
of talking to God and so Job was
talking to God. 

880
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,240
And so the, the encouragement 
there is I don't, I don't care 

881
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,160
what your doubt is or the 
tension that you're involved in.

882
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,360
Even going back to what we just 
talked about the evil and 

883
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,520
suffering in the world. 
Are you talking to God about 

884
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,320
those things or you just talking
about God, right. 

885
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,840
And that's really the the 
question that I had for them. 

886
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,400
I encourage them to really bring
those difficult doubts, 

887
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,640
intentions to the Lord and have 
conversations with him about 

888
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,640
them rather than just talking 
about it with friends or or 

889
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,040
other people. 
Clearly we want community 

890
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,680
support us in the midst. 
So I'm not saying don't ever 

891
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,400
talk to anybody else about it, 
just talk to God. 

892
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,040
But I do think that that's 
what's missing is the is 

893
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,680
bringing it before the Lord and 
refusing to walk away from that 

894
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,600
conversation saying I don't 
understand and I'm frustrated. 

895
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,320
I don't get it, but I I'm 
trusting you and I'm here and 

896
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,520
I'm talking. 
Yeah, Job had community. 

897
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,440
Yeah, but he didn't have 
biblical wisdom around him. 

898
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:08,720
No. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

899
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,880
That's a good word. 
That's a really good word. 

900
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,640
Anything you want to add to 
that, Davis? 

901
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,400
No, I mean, I think one thing 
that Bobby helped our students 

902
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:24,160
with a lot was just recognizing 
the gap between God being good. 

903
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,200
And I mean, he really went back 
to brokenness of the world, but 

904
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,880
saying there's this gap between 
God being good and the evil that

905
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,320
we experience and the bat. 
That's kind of the core tension 

906
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,360
that we really feel. 
And the solution isn't more 

907
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,240
answers, it actually is faith. 
And so there's just this piece 

908
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:45,960
where we have to recognize that,
OK, God is God and I am not, and

909
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:51,920
that is OK. 
And that doesn't mean that all 

910
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,040
of this, all of this is OK, but 
it does mean that I can be OK 

911
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,080
like in the midst of this 
because I, I can have faith in 

912
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,240
him who created this and will 
fix all of this. 

913
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:05,640
Yeah, I'm not a big like 
equation type guy when it comes 

914
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,320
to spirituality for sure. 
But I think if there is an 

915
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,080
equation to like, think about 
when terms of your relationship 

916
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,400
with the Lord and when you have 
doubt and tension and those 

917
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,720
things in your life, I think 
that it's to practice emotional 

918
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,280
honesty, but with spiritual 
humility. 

919
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,880
I think that that's the tension.
It's like we, we want to be 

920
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,560
honest with the Lord because God
is not afraid of our emotions. 

921
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:32,080
So we want to be honest with 
where we are emotionally, but 

922
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,280
then we also want to spiritually
be humble. 

923
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,080
And, and I think that was 
really, was really what I saw in

924
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,240
Job is he was very clear about 
not understanding what was going

925
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:45,880
on or being frustrated by it 
and, and just being like what in

926
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,880
the world? 
But he also, he, he also humbled

927
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,800
himself when God comes out and 
starts, where were you when I 

928
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,840
formed the like, what he was 
like, all right, he's like, OK. 

929
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,960
And I think that's kind of the 
the mindset we need to have when

930
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,280
we're going to the Lord, just 
like we don't need to hide 

931
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,120
emotions from him as if he can't
see those things, but we 

932
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,320
certainly do need to humble 
ourselves and realize that he is

933
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,720
sovereign and the creator of of,
of all. 

934
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:15,040
So. 
There is a God. 

935
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,120
You're not him. 
Yeah, one of the very first 

936
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,800
things we we teach our 
elementary students right. 

937
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,520
Yep. 
And and that is a a through line

938
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:28,160
here, but really prominent in 
our last topic salvation and 

939
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,600
free will. 
So I'm glad you were able to put

940
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,640
that one to wreck Davis. 
Yeah, we've been great time 

941
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,600
we've been waiting for, I don't 
know, couple thousand 1000. 

942
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,440
Yeah, we just stopped. 
We just stopped talking about 

943
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,480
it, Al started. 
To tell us how you wrap that up 

944
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,720
in a bow for our students. 
Yeah, very easily. 

945
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,600
No, this is funny because I 
mean, this is one of those 

946
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,960
things that it just like for me,
the world that I grew up in, 

947
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,000
predestination was like a 
Christian cuss word. 

948
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,360
Like you don't say that because 
that's not even really true. 

949
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:01,000
So I remember getting to college
and like I had never really read

950
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,240
my Bible. 
So right, that's a tough spot to

951
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:07,520
be in. 
And and I was at lunch with 

952
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,240
Clark Merritt because our 
downtown campus and I remember 

953
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:12,840
saying, like, man, 
predestination, that's 

954
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,320
ridiculous. 
That's not true and he was he 

955
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,200
took me to Ephesians 1/5 and 
he's like, hey, you literally 

956
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,600
know the word is the word is in 
your Bible libel. 

957
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,440
And I was like, huh, now that is
an interesting point. 

958
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,440
And the. 
Word Trinity is not, but the 

959
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,200
word representation is, Yeah. 
So like for me that was that was

960
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,400
actually a huge moment where I 
was like, OK, one, I probably 

961
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,080
should read my Bible some that 
would help me a good bit. 

962
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:41,720
And two, just that this is not, 
it's not cut and dry how we kind

963
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,720
of want to make it at times. 
And so, I mean, the answer is 

964
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:49,880
the answer is yes, Scott. 
Yes, Both predestination and 

965
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,760
free will are real. 
So what we did is we kind of 

966
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,520
went through and just made a 
case from Scripture for both, 

967
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,200
for both ideas to say, OK, like 
you can clearly look at 

968
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,720
Ephesians and see that God 
chose. 

969
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,240
He knew all of this before the 
world was formed. 

970
00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:10,960
And he chose who was going to be
a part of his family, who were 

971
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,000
going to be his children, who's 
going to be adopted. 

972
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,320
You see it in Romans. 
You see it multiple times where 

973
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,120
it's like, OK, God, God before 
the foundations of the earth, 

974
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,800
God knew, God chose. 
Nothing surprises him. 

975
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,000
And so there's this truth where 
God is in control. 

976
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,960
Nothing surprises him, 
especially our salvation, 

977
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,680
whether or not we, you know, 
follow him or not. 

978
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,280
Like it's not surprising to him.
But at the same time, you go to 

979
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,800
the Scriptures and you read 
other passages and I love and 

980
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,240
Deuteronomy where it's the end 
of Deuteronomy where Moses is 

981
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,800
basically like laying out the 
options they have before them. 

982
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:54,160
And it's just like you choose 
and I hope you make the right 

983
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,720
choice. 
And it's like, well, if God was 

984
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:59,520
made, if God was in charge and 
control and nothing surprised 

985
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,480
him, then why wouldn't he just 
make the right choice for you? 

986
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,680
But it's like, no, like you have
to make the right choice. 

987
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,080
And your ancestor, I mean, 
you're generations beyond this 

988
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,800
will either benefit or suffer 
from the choices that you make 

989
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,040
around all this. 
And it's just this super 

990
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,680
interesting thing. 
And you mentioned where Peter's 

991
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,840
talking about it, where he's 
like, God is being slow because 

992
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,200
he wants everyone to be saved as
kind of the idea he don't want 

993
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,440
anyone to be destroyed. 
And you're like, well, if God 

994
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,880
was in charge and he didn't want
anyone to be destroyed, well, 

995
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,840
then Bing bang, boom, let's, 
let's wrap it up right now. 

996
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,960
You know, so it's like clearly, 
OK, our, our choices matter. 

997
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,640
We have choices to make and 
those choices matter. 

998
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,960
And so the scriptures just they 
hold both things out as true. 

999
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,200
They don't, they don't even 
really pit them against each 

1000
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:44,400
other. 
They're just like, no, both 

1001
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,320
things are obviously true. 
So we're. 

1002
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,960
We're the ones that pit them. 
But we put them against each 

1003
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:54,280
other because what we have 
finite brains and, and there's 

1004
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,000
this thing where we desire to be
able to comprehend something, 

1005
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,400
right, to be able to understand 
how something exists and relates

1006
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,920
to everything else. 
And we just, we actually don't 

1007
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,000
have that capacity, right? 
If we did have that capacity, 

1008
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:07,800
we'd be God. 
Yeah. 

1009
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,760
And it competes with faith, with
the idea of faith. 

1010
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,720
Yeah, Yeah. 
And so for us, I mean, we, we 

1011
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:16,400
have to be able to hold these 
two things and say, OK, we are 

1012
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:17,880
creatures, We're not the 
creator. 

1013
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,320
There's a God, we're not him, 
right? 

1014
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,680
We start, I mean, we teach 
fusion students that from day 

1015
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:23,720
one, but there's a God and I'm 
not him. 

1016
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:26,120
And that, that means that I 
don't understand how these, the 

1017
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,040
two things work together. 
And so there's, there should be 

1018
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,400
this comfort that comes from the
fact that God's in control. 

1019
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,680
Nothing surprises him. 
And we should be able to kind of

1020
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,520
take that. 
We should be able to take 

1021
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:39,840
comfort in that. 
But then there's this reality of

1022
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,960
this responsibility that we have
that our our choices are real 

1023
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,760
and they do matter. 
And how those two things 

1024
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,680
married, I mean, maybe God will 
explain that to us in eternity, 

1025
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:51,800
but maybe not. 
But still not. 

1026
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,280
We still want. 
Yeah, I don't think we're going 

1027
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,000
to care too much. 
Yeah, Right. 

1028
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,440
But no, that's great. 
That's a, that's a, that's 

1029
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,880
really, really helpful. 
And I'm so glad you, you, you 

1030
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,960
tackled that. 
And I always think about this 

1031
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:07,440
anecdote because this is a 
seminary story and and if you're

1032
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,120
going to get this answer, answer
to this question, surely it's 

1033
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,280
going to be in seminary, right? 
And so we had AI had a wonderful

1034
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:19,320
mentor, Howard Hendricks, who 
was it's kind of the, the father

1035
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,520
of Bible study methods and 
everybody loved him. 

1036
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:23,040
He was kind of the father of the
seminary. 

1037
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,280
And so he would make himself 
available to the young man that 

1038
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,280
we're living in the, the single 
man's dormitory. 

1039
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,200
He'd go over on Friday night and
they'd have pizza and it was 

1040
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,360
just like as Prof everything and
you know, and he, he would laugh

1041
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,560
and he would say every Friday 
night the conversation is the 

1042
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,640
same. 
We start out trying to solve 

1043
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:44,040
predestination and free will. 
And then we end the night trying

1044
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:45,880
to find, talking about how to 
find a wife. 

1045
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:52,760
And he said, so we start here. 
But really this is the 

1046
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,840
relational aspect of applying 
faith in life is really where 

1047
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,680
everybody is living. 
And I'm like, you know, that 

1048
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,080
feels like ministry in the 
church too. 

1049
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,600
We have all these big questions,
but at the end of the day, like 

1050
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,120
I'm just trying to make it 
through today to the next thing 

1051
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,560
and you guys covered a lot of 
that in these big questions. 

1052
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,520
So thanks for doing this. 
Yeah. 

1053
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:18,200
Any closing thoughts on you know
what you hope to to to be the 

1054
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,680
the the the catalytic moment 
coming out of out of this 

1055
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,760
series? 
No, I mean, I think, I think 

1056
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,000
what we've been talking about, 
which is the fact that it's OK 

1057
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:28,320
to have hard questions. 
Yeah. 

1058
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,760
And the place to go with those 
hard questions is the Scriptures

1059
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:33,960
and community, and you ought to 
stuff it down. 

1060
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:39,200
And Davis Craig's e-mail and my 
e-mail D Greg at grace dot SZ be

1061
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,280
happy to well, thanks. 
Thanks for listening to to this.

1062
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,680
Hopefully you got some insight 
into student ministry. 

1063
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,720
Got a little window into a 
recent series. 

1064
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:50,880
If you have Forge students, ask 
them how it went. 

1065
00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:54,440
If you know Forge leaders, just 
encourage them that they're 

1066
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,360
doing good work and and if you 
want to be involved in student 

1067
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,880
ministry, there are places for 
you to jump in and get involved.

1068
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,120
And we would love to love to 
talk talk with you about that. 

1069
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,480
Bobby, will you just close our 
time on this idea of just 

1070
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,320
trusting God, being able to ask 
questions, spiritual humility? 

1071
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,200
Will you just just pray for us? 
Sure. 

1072
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:21,640
Father, we are thankful that you
are a God who is sovereign in 

1073
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,720
control. 
We are thankful that we cannot 

1074
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,120
wrap our minds around you 
because if that was the case, 

1075
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,960
then then you wouldn't be gone. 
And so we are, we are 

1076
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,720
recognizing and admitting that 
there are hard, difficult 

1077
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,360
questions that we have as 
believers, but that you are God 

1078
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,520
that invites conversation, that 
has given us your word, that has

1079
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,560
revealed yourself to us, and 
you've revealed our need for 

1080
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,160
you. 
And so we just asked that we 

1081
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:51,400
would cling to that, that we 
would just be overwhelmed and in

1082
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,240
awe of your gospel each and 
every day. 

1083
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,800
We ask for our students who are 
kind of struggling with some of 

1084
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,720
these things. 
And even our parents are adults 

1085
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,760
that are, that are still having 
questions and wanting to to kind

1086
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,280
of get to the bottom of things 
that ultimately at the end of 

1087
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,280
the day, Lord, that we all would
just be putting our faith in you

1088
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,520
and that we'd be continuing to 
take one step closer to you and 

1089
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,560
continuing to grow in your 
likeness. 

1090
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:19,040
And so we again, thank you for 
what you've done through this 

1091
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,800
series for our students. 
And we ask that you would just 

1092
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,520
continue that work, particularly
as we get into retreat month in 

1093
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:26,800
Christ, I may pray. 
Amen.