1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,200 This episode is brought to you by Beam OPS. 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,520 If your Elixir deployments are painful, or your infrastructure 3 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:07,960 is a mess, or you just need experience hands to help you 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,840 scale, these are your people. Beam OPS specializes in scalable 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,800 Elixir development, automated deployment pipelines, and 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,000 infrastructure migrations. They will help you work smarter 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,480 and ship faster. As authors of the Pragprog book 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,520 Engineering Elixir Applications, they know their stuff. 9 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:30,840 Check them out at beamops.co.uk. Secure your Elixir apps with 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,560 paraxial IO. From code analysis and bot 11 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,160 defense to dependency checks, they've got you covered. 12 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,120 Elixir first design with GitHub integration. 13 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:46,440 Elevate your security at paraxial dot IO testing. 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,360 What's up? I'm Jacob Blitzo, your Elixir 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,240 mentor, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Elixir 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,360 Mentor Podcast. This is where we discuss 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,280 everything related to Elixir, from interviews with 18 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,360 enthusiasts, pioneers in the community to innovative projects 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,400 and library shaping. Elixir's future. 20 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:08,000 Amos joins me today to talk about mentorship, knowledge 21 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,600 sharing, and what it takes to build software teams that 22 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,800 actually thrive. And I'm sure we'll be talking a 23 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,600 lot more, but welcome, Amos, thanks for joining me today. 24 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,480 It's good to have you. Yeah. 25 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:20,480 Thank you. Glad to be here. 26 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,160 So we first met at down at XMEX. That was a fun small little 27 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:33,320 conference and it was enjoyable and I really enjoyed your you 28 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:36,760 kind of, is it a keynote when it's a closing talk? 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's what he 30 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,640 called it. I feel weird saying that. 31 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,280 Even when he asked me, I was like sure, I'll do a keynote. 32 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,960 And then spent months going why did I say OK? 33 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,880 Dude it was so good though, like it was one of the most engaging 34 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,240 talks I've listened to in a while so I really enjoyed it. 35 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,640 That's very flattering. Yeah, I usually like to kick 36 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,000 this off with like you want to give a brief introduction of who 37 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,680 you are and kind of your background, where you come from. 38 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,360 Sure, sure. So my name is Amos King. 39 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,240 I've kind of been all over the place over the years. 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,640 I've done COBOL, Java, JavaScript, Ruby, Elixir, 41 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:26,080 Erlang. I have always like helped run 42 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,080 meetups and things like that since I got out of college. 43 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:35,880 I've been programming after college for like 20 years. 44 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,160 Was programming, though. I like got my first paid gig 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:45,240 when I was 12, so I've been programming quite a long time. 46 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:55,160 So yeah, I, I, I, I just love being out there and learning new 47 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,560 things. I picked this career field 48 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,160 because I would constantly be able to learn new things. 49 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,960 You know, I hear people say I've I've forgotten more things than 50 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,360 than some people have learned, but I, I don't believe that at 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:07,800 all. There's way too many things to 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,360 learn in this career field that every single person you run 53 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,160 into, you have something to learn from them. 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,520 Yeah, I miss being on top of the Dunning Kruger curve, you know, 55 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,080 and when you think you know it all. 56 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,360 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I never, never did. 57 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,080 I've worked with some really great people and, and my whole 58 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,640 experience and my whole career has been pretty humbling. 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,080 Every time I think I know something, somebody shows me why 60 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,880 I why there's one more thing that I need, one more thing I 61 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,480 get to learn and understand and. It's nice. 62 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,880 Beautiful. Yeah. 63 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,280 It's nice when you can surround yourself with smarter people. 64 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,160 And it also keeps you very humble because you don't ever 65 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,640 think you know everything. I was going to say, it's really 66 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,600 easy for me to be around smarter people. 67 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,520 Same, same. I mean, all I do too is every 68 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,360 week I talk to smarter people than me in the Elixir community 69 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,440 and I'm so I'm grateful for it 'cause I learn, I get to learn 70 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,800 as we chat, you know, it works out really nice. 71 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,520 What, what brought you to Elixir? 72 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,120 How do you get started with that? 73 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:14,640 What? What? 74 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:20,800 Put it on your radar? So many years ago I'm trying to 75 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:28,640 think of when 2007 ish I worked on secure chat software for the 76 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,480 Navy and it was all written in Java. 77 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,720 The server was Java. The front end like the client 78 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:41,040 was, was based on Eclipse RPC. So the the same thing with the 79 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,320 Eclipse editor. Is that even a thing anymore? 80 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,000 I have no idea. I don't know but I tried to get 81 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,720 my masters in software engineering and I dropped out 82 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:55,840 because all it was was was Java. Yeah, I have. 83 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,440 I have looked at at going and getting a further degree and 84 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,120 kind of the same thing. It was like everything I was 85 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,640 running into is Java and I was like, I want a distributed 86 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,240 systems degree or a, or a functional programming degree 87 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:10,600 and I'm not getting those in Java. 88 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,080 So yeah. So I anyway, I wrote this chat 89 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,600 software for the Navy and then I was in the Air Force for a long 90 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,080 time too. And so I had a, a high level 91 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,400 security clearance and I was one of the only people who could go 92 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,000 get on boats and submarines at the time. 93 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:32,960 And so I actually had moved off the project and then they 94 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:38,960 started to switch the server to Erling because, you know, you 95 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,600 have a distributed chat system. It just kind of made sense. 96 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,560 And I was already a little interested in Erling. 97 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,880 I'd heard about it, but I don't remember where. 98 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,960 And I was still at the same company. 99 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,600 So they would have me come down and look at stuff with them, ask 100 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,640 me questions about problems that I had solved in in the Java 101 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,440 land. And then I also was still like 102 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,760 being sent out on these boats, even though I was working on new 103 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,480 projects and I was mostly doing Ruby at that point. 104 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,440 And so that got me into looking into Erlang and doing some 105 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,840 Erlang programming. And then, you know, because I'd 106 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:18,120 been in the Ruby community, I knew who Jose was. 107 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,840 And when I saw that he was working on Elixir, the, the 108 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:25,360 thing that I really didn't like about Erlang was the syntax, 109 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,560 just because it was so different from all the other stuff. 110 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,520 And so it was like, oh, maybe, maybe I'll like the syntax. 111 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,360 And then I kind of never looked back. 112 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:39,400 And I've been doing Elixir full time for quite a while. 113 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,280 I wish I knew it a time period that I could tell you like. 114 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:44,400 I'm afraid I might not be exactly right. 115 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,720 You're just an OG. We'll just give you the OG 116 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:49,440 title. Yeah, that's awesome. 117 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:49,840 Yeah. I'm. 118 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,080 I'm late to the party. I've been like the maybe the 119 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,920 last five years I've been in the elixir world and what I don't. 120 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:01,640 Interview you what brought you here? 121 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:07,880 I, I had a buddy in my ear telling me about elixir for like 122 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,120 a year and I was like, dude, I don't have time to learn another 123 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,560 language. You know, I'm, I'm too busy. 124 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:18,400 Like, but then I had a, a project idea and it was a mark, 125 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,840 a fitness marketplace and I started looking into tech stacks 126 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,040 and like, what's the best way to make, you know, a robust 127 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,880 marketplace? Which making a marketplace was 128 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,760 not a good idea from the start, but it, it got me. 129 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,160 I was like, OK, I'm paper. I didn't really understand what 130 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,560 I was getting into. Honestly. 131 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,320 I was like on paper, Elixir is what I need. 132 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:45,640 Like I, you know, fault tolerance, the distributed nodes 133 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,720 and you know everything, everything about it, the 134 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,240 supervision trees, Genservers, all these processes. 135 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,880 I knew I liked it, but I didn't know what I was getting into. 136 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,800 And I just started writing my back end in Elixir. 137 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,480 Like I was writing a JavaScript like no JSAPI. 138 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,640 And so my learning curve was rough and slow but. 139 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,440 It. Slowly got better and clicked 140 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,000 and then like I fell in love with the syntax first and then 141 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,000 fell in love with the power of like the beam and from there I 142 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,080 just started making up my own jobs until I could get a real 143 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,960 elixir job. That's awesome. 144 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,320 Yeah. That's the way to go. 145 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,680 That's kind of what I did too. Yeah, like I started a 146 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,680 consultancy and I would just push Elixir on all my clients if 147 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,559 they didn't have like a tech stack choice. 148 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,120 I was like, this is what we're going to do. 149 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,880 And yeah, that's what I did. We have the same story on that 150 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:42,400 part. Oh, that's hilarious. 151 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,440 So you you ran a consultancy before you were at Adobe? 152 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,000 I did. I did. 153 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,600 I ran a company called Binary Noggin and we did work for 154 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,080 people all over the world. Worked with Toyota, Schneider 155 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:02,040 Electric and all. A lot of it was Elixir and or 156 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,080 Erlang stuff, a little bit of Ruby here and there, but it was 157 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,200 like if I walked in and and you didn't have a tech stack, I'll 158 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,600 be damned if I was going to stay there and it not be like. 159 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:15,600 Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. 160 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,280 So. We ended up with that kind of 161 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,840 everywhere and it was it was good. 162 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,840 I ran that full time for 10 years. 163 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,200 Awesome. What made what made you want to 164 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:31,120 shift into working for like going from a consultancy to 165 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,320 Adobe? I think so. 166 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,560 A pretty big shift. The market. 167 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:40,760 So I, I, I went from having more work than I could even handle 168 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,360 without really doing much advertising or, or anything. 169 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:48,640 Then I started doing some advertising and, and was getting 170 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:53,680 even more was hiring people. And then the market shifted and 171 00:09:53,680 --> 00:10:00,000 I really, I hated doing sales. I was still doing sales and 172 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:05,120 programming and, and it was a lot of work kept trying and, and 173 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,960 it went from hey, we've got this year long 2 year long 6 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,880 developer project to hey, what can you do for $2500, you know, 175 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,880 like so all the projects shrunk and changed, you know, a few 176 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,960 years back whenever they had all the tech layoffs. 177 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,640 And I wrote it out for another year and was just exhausted. 178 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,920 And I got a phone call from somebody at HCA hospitals in the 179 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,720 water park project and asked me if I would apply there. 180 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,680 They knew that the market was rough and I said sure, let me 181 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:39,080 look. And then so I went there. 182 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,240 You know, it's kind of kind of nice to not have to do sales for 183 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,000 a while. Yeah, I feel like I my consult, 184 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,040 I started my consultancy in the worst market ever, but it kind 185 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,800 of started off by a fluke because I got I had a couple 186 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,840 great clients right off the bat and then when they dried up it, 187 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,280 they started turning into just like, I just need a landing 188 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,520 page, I need a website and like all this horrible work. 189 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,800 And so I like built my own like website hosting platform in 190 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,880 Elixir so I could like spin websites up and have them deploy 191 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,880 faster and like that was cool, but I had to do things like that 192 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,400 to like make me like what I was doing because just building 193 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,120 landing pages is awful. Right, right. 194 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,520 Yeah, yeah. And that was mine. 195 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,520 All of our projects were big and then turned into. 196 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,640 Yeah. Little little piddly piddly 197 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,440 work. I would always tell people no I 198 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,120 really want to build things more like for the non tech people. 199 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:43,040 More like Gmail and and your marketing web page, right? 200 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm grateful. Now I have a great job at a 201 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,360 company called Colex and I'm a back end engineer and it's all 202 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,040 Elixir and we have, we just hit like 4 million users. 203 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,680 So I like I get to stretch my ability. 204 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,920 All these hard problems you don't get to solve with like 205 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,280 small startups and bootstraps. Like I'm, I have my own products 206 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,120 out there and stuff, but I've never had scaling problems or 207 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,840 performant issues that I had to solve 'cause you can have a lot 208 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,360 of mistakes on database queries when you have 1000 users. 209 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,120 That's true. That's true like. 210 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,200 When you when you get away with with tiny things. 211 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,120 When you got to start tuning it up to work for, you know, 212 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,640 thousands of requests, a second different ball game, right? 213 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,280 Yeah. Yep, Yep. 214 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,360 So it's cool, I get to learn from a lot of cool engineers now 215 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,640 that I work with, and it's like unlocking new skills for me. 216 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:45,960 Very cool. We were talking about that right 217 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,520 before we went live, that it's nice to work with smarter 218 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,680 people. Actually, it might have been the 219 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:59,960 beginning of our going live. So I always find, like when we 220 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:05,280 see working with smarter people, like I do find that everybody I 221 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,800 run into in some way or another is smarter at something than I 222 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,600 am. Yeah, I always have something to 223 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:16,080 learn from them. Even like recently I was working 224 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,960 with somebody and I wish I could remember the question, but the 225 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:25,600 questions that they were asking were far more introspective, may 226 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,440 not be right, but feels like the right word. 227 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,640 They, they have these questions that were just like, wow, I 228 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,760 would have never thought to ask that. 229 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,000 And that is an, an amazing question. 230 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,200 And I actually, I, I got an older story that I do remember. 231 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,400 The question is, we were working on a system that needed to send 232 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,200 emails out on a pretty regular basis. 233 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,760 And one of the other engineers said, well, how what's the SLO 234 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,760 on when that e-mail needs to go out? 235 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,080 Does it need to go out and eight seconds after the thing happened 236 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,960 or is 10 minutes OK? And I was like, well, that's 237 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,720 not. I was just concentrating on 238 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,960 like, how what do I need to do to send this out? 239 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,520 And he's like talking about real engineering, Like what is my 240 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,400 deadline for sending this e-mail? 241 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,000 Because then I can I can know how to architect it. 242 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,560 And as soon as he said it and they answered, it completely 243 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,320 changed the architecture that we were looking at. 244 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,000 Yeah. Just a little thing like that, 245 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,760 Like, yeah, does it have to be immediate or does it? 246 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,640 Or can you run a process that takes 20 minutes? 247 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,480 Right, right. Yeah, It was wild. 248 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,840 Yeah, I find it interesting. I don't know if like the tech 249 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,840 space or like developers are a special breed or if it's like 250 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:52,360 this in any, any like job, I guess, but the backgrounds of 251 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,200 developers are so drastically different. 252 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,640 Like you can all be, you know, quote UN quote senior engineers 253 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,640 and just like your knowledge base is so drastically different 254 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,320 than the people you work with. Right. 255 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,480 I, I mean, it even depends on like your past programming 256 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,240 projects, But even if you haven't been a programmer like I 257 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,640 have, I've told somebody before, my favorite teams are you have 258 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,240 somebody with a computer science degree, somebody with like a 259 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,120 physics degree, some other science degree, somebody with a 260 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,960 non science degree. And then somebody who like was 261 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,600 just a hacker who never, maybe never even finished high school. 262 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,960 And it was just like, I learned all this crap through banging my 263 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,520 head against the wall because I wanted to solve some problem 264 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,120 that I had. And when you get those minds 265 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,440 together and people from different backgrounds, like the 266 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,080 way that you solve problems, it just completely changes. 267 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,360 When I was in college, I could not understand programming to 268 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,480 save my life. I just couldn't do it. 269 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,760 And so I ended up, you know, I was good at math. 270 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,760 I could do calculus, I could do differential equations, I could 271 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,400 do all that stuff, right. So I ended up like becoming a 272 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,920 structural engineer. And then I didn't even use that 273 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,560 degree. I started doing like ladder 274 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,840 logic and like manufacturing automation, like timing 275 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,280 controllers and servos and things and that ladder logic 276 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,760 just like that drag and drop, just timers, switches. 277 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,120 And that it was enough to peak my interest. 278 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,920 I was like, I want to learn how to program. 279 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,000 And then I started learning and then I started learning Java 280 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:33,520 grossly enough and wrote AI wrote a web scraper to like, I 281 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,280 wanted customer like I wanted to build a customer list for like 282 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,560 emailing and things. And I, I did a Google web 283 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,800 scraper had to go through a proxy and every, every like 10 284 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,280 pages back then. I they're way better now, but I 285 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,560 remember every 10 pages I had to switch my IP address where they 286 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,560 would block me and I would just had I would just manually 287 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,720 paginate through Google listings and take customer data. 288 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,440 All in Java. All in Java. 289 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:10,160 Oh man, it's I, I I feel for all everybody who's writing C# and 290 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,560 Java. Yeah, it's I, I mean, I couldn't 291 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,319 do it anymore. I I wouldn't have the patience. 292 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:20,200 Yeah, yeah, there's just so much boilerplate in all of that. 293 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,599 I feel like, and I don't know anybody who tells me that they 294 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:27,760 learned object oriented programming in Java. 295 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,000 I'm like, I, I just want to hug you. 296 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,120 I never, I never fully grasped it. 297 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:38,440 I I feel like I was a very like copy and paste stack Overflow 298 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,520 guy back then. I could always make things work, 299 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,160 but I did not grasp it and I didn't actually get it until 300 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,720 Swift was released. And like then I started iOS 301 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,320 development and it it clicked and then from there I finally 302 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,200 understood object oriented programming. 303 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,200 But before that I don't know, I just couldn't get it. 304 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,400 What about that change from that to functional programming and? 305 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,040 Dude, I wish I learned functional programming from the 306 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,520 very start 'cause I think that's just how an engineering brain 307 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,080 works. Like step by step, you don't 308 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,600 have state being held anywhere, you don't have like singletons 309 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:20,040 or anything that can add weird, complex, you know, state issues 310 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,600 to your code. So I think like immutability, 311 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,720 like if I learned Elixir from the start, I think it would have 312 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,680 clicked so much quicker, yeah, That you just transform data. 313 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,160 You can't access it from 100 different places, you know. 314 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,040 Yeah, getting rid of that, that entire class of errors is 315 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,120 awesome. I still found though, even after 316 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:43,480 that, every once in a while, like my Erlanger Elixir code 317 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,800 would start to look a little more like object oriented code. 318 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,200 And it took me a long time to unlearn a lot of the patterns 319 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,840 and stuff that were stuck in my head. 320 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,720 I was just like trying to do the same stuff in a different 321 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,440 language. Yeah, well, and I feel like you, 322 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:05,160 you just kind of have to use like Erling or the Beam 323 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,160 architecture, Like you just write code and you don't have 324 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:10,520 the same. You don't really follow 325 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,560 patterns. They're just there like, does 326 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,720 that make sense? Yeah, there's just a way to 327 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,760 build, right? Right. 328 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,840 Yeah, I think, I think there's a little bit of that. 329 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,680 The only time that I start to see things to me that feel like 330 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,760 old object oriented pattern brain stuff is like supervision 331 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,720 and when you're trying to figure out how processes talk to each 332 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,800 other, but then you have state and everything. 333 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,440 And so it does feel like like. Abusing processes you can. 334 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,920 Definitely do that, yeah. Well, I, I always tell people to 335 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,000 like, I know it's like the shiny object. 336 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,440 Everyone gets excited about Jen's servers when they get into 337 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,160 Elixir. Like get just like build with 338 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,920 Elixir. Don't worry about the fancy 339 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,320 objects yet. Because if you start, if you're 340 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,400 coming from object oriented and you obsess over Gen. servers, 341 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,080 you're you're going to use them wrong. 342 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,160 You're going to use them like a stateful machine, right? 343 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,880 And just and just abuse them? They're like salt and pepper, 344 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:13,960 right? Like just a little bit. 345 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,960 That's all you need. Yeah, exactly. 346 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,960 Yeah. And, and so many of the like, 347 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,520 you know, 90% of what, what we're doing, if we're doing like 348 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,280 a website, all of that stuff, all the Genservers that you need 349 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,120 are already taken care of by Phoenix or life or, or whatever. 350 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:34,400 So you, yeah, you get really excited about it. 351 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,000 And then you rarely get to use them unless you unless you use 352 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,920 them wrong. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. 353 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:45,440 Well, like I, I rarely like I, I use like open in a lot of my 354 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,920 projects. And then you're like, I'm rarely 355 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,360 and then live view obviously, but you're rarely like spinning 356 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:56,000 them up from scratch unless you have a really specific use case. 357 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,000 Well, and, and even when you do you, you even if you're working 358 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,960 on a non Elixir or non Phoenix project, like I work on a back 359 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:10,280 end system at Adobe right now. And so it's all like there's no 360 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:16,080 framework where we're all doing wet like RPC requests to other 361 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,120 erlink notes and Erlink notes doing those to us. 362 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,640 And but there's like you just, you just need a few Gen. servers 363 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,960 and a few supervisors. You can get so much done that 364 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,560 you like never really get to try to build that again. 365 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,280 After you get it put together, you're like, OK, done now. 366 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,600 Now I'm just working on plain old business logic and figuring 367 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,440 out how, what, what is like when you have choices, right? 368 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,080 Like this is the thing that I find really important is when I 369 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:50,600 have a choice between like an enum each or a four, like what, 370 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,840 why would I actually have both of those? 371 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,920 What are the choices that I have and what are the drawbacks? 372 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,360 And like there are a lot of bugs that come from just the little 373 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:02,880 differences between the two of those I see, especially in 374 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,280 tests, I see a lot like a four comprehension. 375 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,240 That pattern matches and has an assertion inside of it, and then 376 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,920 the code changes and that pattern no longer matches. 377 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,600 But you never get an error because. 378 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,200 You just never. Yeah, 'cause you're just 379 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:22,640 filtering, you know, like, oh, so 4 is a filter and and an 380 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,560 each, so I guess a collect? And those are the worst bugs to 381 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,520 try to track down too, when they exist in the code. 382 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,480 Those mystery mystery bugs. But I, I think that's where we 383 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,160 learn the language though, and we learn what are the powers of 384 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,520 that language is when we start digging into what are these 385 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,600 little differences, why are they there? 386 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,560 And we start questioning why. And I think that's the best 387 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:51,920 thing about working with other people. 388 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,080 I just heard a Slack notification. 389 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,440 I tried to turn those off. I know, that's why I was joking. 390 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,200 It's just like that wasn't on my end. 391 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,200 Was it the? Computer says that I'm on do not 392 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,160 disturb. Dude I have found. 393 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,040 Are you on a Mac? Yeah. 394 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,400 Dude, do not disturb does not do not disturb everything. 395 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,800 It's really annoying if, if phone calls and stuff will still 396 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,760 like pop up in the top right corner like so if you're if 397 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,080 you're screen sharing or anything like they'll just show 398 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,800 up right there. Do not disturb Doesn't matter. 399 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,960 There's. There's probably some setting in 400 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,560 there that we can find that'll just shut that off completely, 401 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,560 but. I I mean, I do just want to turn 402 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,920 it off. When do you take a call through 403 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,440 your computer? Probably never. 404 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,640 Almost never. Every once in a while though, I 405 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,280 like I like the ability to text through my computer. 406 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,640 I do. I do love that. 407 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,160 I remember when they first started that my friends had 408 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,240 messaged me back and they're like dude, how are you? 409 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,800 How are you texting so much 'cause I would like give them a 410 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,640 you're. On my second monitor, dude, 411 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,760 it's, it's like the main reason that I still haven't. 412 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,200 Like I'm always tempted to move over to like a Linux box and I 413 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,520 just, I'm stuck in the Mac ecosystem. 414 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,200 It's just so convenient. Yeah, that, that integration of 415 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:18,040 everything, yeah, is is really nice, which also is awful 416 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,360 because right, like the cost of change is very expensive. 417 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,000 Exactly. Well, it's just like the way 418 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,800 that you know, their Airpods transfer from your phone to your 419 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,920 computer and with other Bluetooth devices, they don't 420 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,080 have access to the same AP is and whatever they're using to do 421 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,600 it. And so it's annoying, like it's 422 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,000 annoying to use their off brand tech. 423 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,280 I think like my favorite thing with the the Airpods, I this is 424 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,960 total technology talk that we're having here is, is like being 425 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,920 able to have myself and my daughter and stuff when we're on 426 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,720 a plane and being able to watch a movie and her Airpods also 427 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,200 work at the same time. That was like magical to me, 428 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,880 'cause. I didn't even know that was a 429 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,520 thing. They call it sharing and you can 430 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,400 share the audio to another set of Airpods so you can like. 431 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:10,880 I didn't even know that was a thing. 432 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,120 Mind blown. Yeah, it's awesome. 433 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,360 That is cool. That's really cool. 434 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,640 I'm pretty excited about that. Now I got to try that. 435 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,840 I don't have any. I do have a flight coming up but 436 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,040 no one to share audio. Are you going to Vancouver? 437 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,400 I am not no I. I'll be, I'm going I and I'm 438 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,560 passing through Salt Lake. I was going to check and see if 439 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:37,840 we were on the same plane we could. 440 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,480 That would be cool that we could, we could, we could nerd 441 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,760 out on some elixir talks there we. 442 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,200 Go. I, I thought I almost went to 443 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:54,320 Vancouver and I'm I bailed and it's probably good like this 444 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,200 month has just been hectic. I've I'm moving and doing a 445 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,320 bunch of stuff. But yeah, it would have been, it 446 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:02,840 would have been a good conference. 447 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,160 The it's the Erlang conference, right? 448 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,080 Or the. Code beam, Code beam, code beam. 449 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,320 Like it's like a one day conference and they have 450 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,920 training on both sides. Yeah, I almost did. 451 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,800 AI almost submitted a talk for that. 452 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,520 Yeah. 'Cause I, I haven't, I, I just 453 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,760 do my YouTube channel and I was like, you know, it'd be kind of 454 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,640 cool to do some conference talks. 455 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,200 You gotta talk in your mind. No, that's the problem. 456 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,200 I I always have like 8 and none of them are good enough as far 457 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,520 as I'm concerned. And then if somebody mentions 458 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,320 like there's a conference or somebody messages me and is 459 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,040 like, hey, do you want to talk? I'm like, yeah, I'll just pick 460 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,640 one of these eight. And then I regret every moment 461 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,200 after that. That's hilarious. 462 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,520 Well, like the second, like I, I think the hard part is when you 463 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,280 start seeing the other talks come up like their topics and 464 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,040 you're like, Dang, that's such a good one. 465 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,640 Right, I want to. I want to go to that talk. 466 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,320 Why can't mine be that good? Yeah, yeah. 467 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,680 No, that's funny. Or whenever you see another talk 468 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,160 that's seems really similar to yours and you're like Dang it, 469 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,960 somebody else is doing it, please mind me first. 470 00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:19,520 I did find that kind of funny with XMEX. 471 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:25,080 We had a lot of like AI talks, like workflow talks and I was 472 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,760 like, I, I wonder if these are going to like step on each 473 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,280 other's toes a little bit and they ended up not, which I 474 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,600 thought was really cool. Yeah, I was surprised too. 475 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,200 I've seen so many AI talks that I'm always like, Oh no, Oh no, 476 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,720 it's just going to be the same as that other one. 477 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,360 And there's always something a little different. 478 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,600 I'm, I kind of go back and forth. 479 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,520 I'm a little AI negative though. Every time I talk about AI too 480 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,880 much on on like this podcast, there's always some negative 481 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,440 comment about it. Like and like, I get it, I think 482 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:04,120 there's like AI fatigue, but I also see just like my output, 483 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,160 what I'm able to do as a developer with it as like part 484 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,680 of my workflow. I'm just, it's really cool. 485 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,800 I can't deny that. But I also, it also scares me. 486 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,440 Like are we just luring ourselves into a trap to be so 487 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,960 dependent on AI to help us work that we can't do it without? 488 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,480 So that's where I get worried, especially like back to us 489 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:33,800 talking about education is like junior developers are not, 490 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,880 they're not learning as much because of the AI and, and even 491 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,000 sometimes not even getting hired because there's, there's AI. 492 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,400 And, and I think that's going to be pretty sad for our future 493 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,080 when we're not training those people up. 494 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,120 I was reading an article from Anthropic. 495 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,560 It always cracks me up that Anthropic articles half the time 496 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,240 were like against AI, even though they sell AI products. 497 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,880 And it said that there was, I think it was like a 20% decrease 498 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,480 in retention of people using. AII believe that. 499 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,040 And and then today I was reading an article that said that there 500 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,560 the AI produces 1.7 times more bugs and. 501 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,240 Per 100% Interesting not. Percent 1.7 times. 502 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,840 So 70% more bugs and and 50% more security issues. 503 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,800 That one I believe 100% like. It's like, it blows my mind. 504 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,280 Well, but then I start thinking about it and I'm like this, OK, 505 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,440 so it's a token prediction engine and it's trained on all 506 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,040 of the code out there that's available. 507 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,160 To it to see there's a lot of bad code out there. 508 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,840 There is, but like at at best like if it's going to predict 509 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,560 the next thing, it's prediction is likely to stick around to 510 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,320 what I would say is average. It's probably the average or you 511 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,640 know, which I guess maybe not the average. 512 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,520 It might be like what appears the most, but what appears the 513 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,400 most is probably going to be fairly near average. 514 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,800 Yeah, I feel like like I'll have AI write like full features on 515 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,120 some of my projects, but I'm always fully doing the code 516 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,280 review and I go back and I'll like yell at it and make it do 517 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,800 corrections. Like, and I feel like if like, I 518 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,040 don't know, like if people are fully vibe coding things that 519 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,680 scares me 'cause we're going to have this weird hesitancy for 520 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,000 anyone to adopt new products because you don't actually know 521 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,240 how they're built under the hood. 522 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,600 You have all these cool products coming out that can, you know, 523 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,480 one shot code and copy any app already out there, right? 524 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,280 Sure, on the surface, but what does it look like? 525 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,280 How's it handling your data? And like you're not going to be 526 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,640 able to scale things or deploy things that are right created 527 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,000 that way, you know, like every piece and proof of concepts 528 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,480 maybe. Right. 529 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,680 Every app's performance requirements end up being 530 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,640 different and you have to make those decisions. 531 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,040 And it's it's hard for it to do that up front. 532 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,080 And especially like if we try to get rid of engineers or we're 533 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,480 not training those juniors up over time, like who's going to, 534 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,320 who's going to know even how to tell it what they want to 535 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,480 perform? That does scare me a little bit. 536 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,320 I've had some positive people on here with the junior, like being 537 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,000 a junior and learning like because I remember just, you 538 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,720 know, banging my head against the wall for like weeks at a 539 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,000 time, sometimes with problems. And then when you finally figure 540 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,840 it out and solve it, like I'm so thankful for all those hard 541 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,240 times, right, that you just went through to learn that. 542 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,280 And now if you're just, if you're not doing like due 543 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,760 diligence with learning, if you're not making sure you're 544 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,800 learning, like I feel like you can ask LLMS to explain things 545 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,240 for you. And if you're doing that, that's 546 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,080 probably better. But if you're just pounding out 547 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,680 features and building products and not really caring, I feel 548 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,560 like there's a problem. Like it's going to, you're 549 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,720 learning, you're learning curves going to be a lot slower. 550 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think your retention, whenever 551 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,120 you don't, you have to struggle a little bit. 552 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,840 Your brain's like, oh, I don't need to remember that. 553 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:19,760 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I like I've tried to 554 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,240 treat the AI like a pair programmer a little bit to see 555 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,120 if that would help because I've had a lot of good like learning 556 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,640 and growth through pair programming and working with 557 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,200 different people. And it's still not the same 558 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,320 cause 'cause it doesn't, I have to pull from it where if you 559 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,560 have a, a partner, sometimes they're giving. 560 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,560 They're not It's not, it's not as two way with AI. 561 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,000 The problem too, is if you're like, if you suggest a new way 562 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,200 to like, clawed code, right, they'll be like, oh, you're 563 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,440 absolutely right. Like, no matter what, it'll just 564 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,840 tell you, oh, that's so smart. Instead of, you know, maybe 565 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,440 giving constructive feedback on your idea. 566 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,200 Even if you tell it to be mean. Yeah, I'll tell you that you're 567 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,800 right. Oh yeah, I hate it. 568 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,560 I hate it. Oh, you're absolutely right. 569 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,600 I'm gonna put this on hold for a second. 570 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,600 I gotta just run a few sponsorships here. 571 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,920 All right, hey, I'm Kimberly with Elixir mentor. 572 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,840 Jacob recently added recruitment services to help companies hire 573 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,720 pre vetted Elixir devs. I help with company outreach, so 574 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,000 if you're hiring, I may be reaching out, or you can connect 575 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,200 with us anytime at elixirmentor.com. 576 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,720 Coding Elixir with AI or building AI into your Elixir 577 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,480 apps? The Elixir AI Collective Discord 578 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,360 is your community for both. Link in the description below 579 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,640 and we're back. All right. 580 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,720 I like, all right, just to kind of circle back to your, your 581 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,960 knowledge sharing talk because I thought, I thought it was good. 582 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,960 And I think our topic here like being a junior developer AI, 583 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,360 like what does this all mean? And I think I, it resonated with 584 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,480 me more too, because I started my YouTube channel with Elixir 585 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,880 tutorials because there weren't a lot of video tutorials out at 586 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,120 least when I started learning. And I wanted to get people up to 587 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,960 speed faster to like build useful things without the 588 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,560 struggles that I went through learning functional programming. 589 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,480 So like I, I feel like you and I, we align like with teaching. 590 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,040 And you did a podcast as well. And I do a podcast and there's 591 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,400 something nice about community and giving back. 592 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,480 And it was kind of like my way of giving back. 593 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,880 But like, yeah, you kind of went into just like, you know, 594 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,679 sharing knowledge is way more important than like, creating a 595 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:45,760 product or writing code. And. 596 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:47,480 Right. Yeah. 597 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,679 Like you want to elaborate on that a little? 598 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:57,040 Yeah, that's a big question. So, So what I've noticed even 599 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,040 out of people who who maybe build their own products and 600 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,960 things like that is that you not necessarily building one thing 601 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,040 all the time. And even if you were building 602 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,000 within one product, you're bouncing around a lot and doing 603 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,640 different things. So that knowledge sharing helps, 604 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,400 helps spread that that around so that whenever you're working on 605 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,800 the next thing, you have something new or you can share 606 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,240 with somebody else because we're not always building the same 607 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,880 thing over and over. So we've got to find a way. 608 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,360 And there's this career field is way too big. 609 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,200 I mean, you got to know how CSS works. 610 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,120 Good luck there. Dude AI has made me a front end 611 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:42,160 engineer otherwise like it's just like my brain just turns to 612 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,480 mush if I'm doing front end dev. No I'm I'm a back end guy. 613 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,640 That's that's where I live. Oh man, so many years spent 614 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,960 struggling through CSS and trying to figure out how to 615 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,520 align a couple of things. 5 pixels to the left was. 616 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,080 How do I center a division? Google and you can't even find 617 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,640 the right Stack Overflow article on it. 618 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,240 So the only thing that, that I found to actually it's, it's, 619 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:16,360 and maybe it's a little selfish is to learn more so that the 620 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,880 next time I don't have to struggle near as hard. 621 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,720 And to do that, like I, I help run user groups forever. 622 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:27,840 I, I talked, I did podcasts, I've done two different ones and 623 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,560 it was always selfish and not selfish in this like, oh, I want 624 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,920 to use this for advertising or whatever. 625 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,920 It wasn't all, it wasn't about making money. 626 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,520 It was about I got to talk to smart people, right? 627 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,360 I got to run my ideas. All of the podcasts, we never 628 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,160 really had plans. We just walked in and said, what 629 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,520 is bugging the crap out of you today? 630 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,840 Even at meet up groups, what is what is happening today? 631 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,520 Like the, you know, when we did the podcast, it was the hallway 632 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,600 track of the elixir community is what we called it because it 633 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,600 really was like those organic conversations that we have. 634 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,920 And we talked about the struggles that we're having 635 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,800 today and somebody there's always at least one person 636 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,360 around who's like, I've been through that. 637 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,360 Let's talk about that and, and share that. 638 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,480 And like, so I, I always wanted to go out there and just have 639 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,440 conversations and then put them out there to the world so that 640 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,240 other people might get something from that conversation. 641 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:28,280 I always felt like if you get something from the conversation, 642 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:29,800 great. If you don't, great. 643 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,400 If you're entertained, great. I, I never really cared. 644 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,680 I was putting it out there for me. 645 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,720 I do the same thing and I'll say like, obviously my YouTube 646 00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:42,680 channel and this podcast, I'm not making money off of it, but 647 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,880 it is just selfish reasons like 1 when I teach a tutorial, you 648 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,280 have to understand the concept you're teaching way more than 649 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,880 just implementing it too. So you're, you're doing a little 650 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,240 deep dive, even if it's basic stuff, you're learning it at a 651 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:59,280 deeper level. And so selfish reason there, 652 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,240 number one. And then the podcast, yeah, I 653 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:06,200 just get to chat like, with people and talk about my 654 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,120 problems, their problems, or just like what we've learned 655 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,560 along the way. And it's really, and I just have 656 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,960 a camera on and other people can listen to it now too. 657 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,080 Do do you, do you ever go back and like end up running into one 658 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,080 of your own tutorials that you've put out whenever you're 659 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,680 trying to search on how to do something? 660 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,440 Dude I've watched my own tutorials to remind myself how 661 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,640 to do something before and like it's just like why? 662 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,320 I can't believe I'm doing this, but like, it'll be like 663 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,000 something like, just like kicking off of a, a new project 664 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,360 or, you know, just some command. I, I, I knew I knew it, but I 665 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,960 couldn't find it in the documents or anything. 666 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,840 So I went and found my own tutorial And it's like something 667 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,400 like, you know, whenever you're starting a new project and you 668 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,000 don't do it very often, you're like, damn it, how did I do 669 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,880 that? And then I'll go and remind. 670 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,720 So you get to share knowledge with future you also. 671 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:07,240 Yeah, exactly. Maybe that's the problem where I 672 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:11,840 don't like the 20% you know that you don't retain using AI. 673 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,320 Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. 674 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,600 That it's really Oh, are you trying to stop me? 675 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,560 No, my my camera went out of focus so I was trying to get us 676 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,000 attention. I I I don't know if I said this 677 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,560 during the talk, but I commonly talk about being yesterday me 678 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,160 was an idiot. Tomorrow me will probably be 679 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,960 smarter than today me. And when yesterday me starts 680 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,600 catching up to today me, that's really bad. 681 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,440 But but sometimes that yesterday you had a good idea that's worth 682 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:51,640 looking at again. But that yeah, like I don't. 683 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,000 That's that's why I want to share this field. 684 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,960 I've said it a bunch of times, is just too big for anyone and. 685 00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:03,800 Well, and it's like, you might be a really good programmer, 686 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,560 right? And you might be really good at 687 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,600 knocking out Elixir code. But then what's your dev op 688 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,280 skills look like? Can you deploy a server? 689 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,400 Can is it secure? Do you know how to set up all 690 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,280 your DNS records? Like there's so much that starts 691 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,440 going into it. Right, right. 692 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,960 Especially if you get a bigger project and then you're like, 693 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,840 oh, maybe we need Kubernetes. I don't know that anybody ever 694 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,440 does, but I'll go ahead and let somebody else decide that 'cause 695 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,960 I don't want to. Well, and then scaling, like 696 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:39,200 once you have a distributed system, scaling databases, 697 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,160 that's like a whole new problem, like, and it's not an easy 698 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,320 problem to solve. Like I don't know that much. 699 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,320 I like a lot of times my database, you just keep throwing 700 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,520 money at it and make it bigger and bigger and bigger. 701 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,040 But at at some point until, yeah, at some point there's that 702 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,480 ceiling and you can't and and then, and then what do you do? 703 00:40:58,480 --> 00:40:59,640 Now? You have a whole new set of 704 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,480 problems and like you just keep unlocking new problems. 705 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,640 And and, and you know, the cloud providers will, will try to sell 706 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,400 you that you can just keep adding to it too. 707 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,360 And then by the time it is a problem, it's a. 708 00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:17,000 It's really a big problem. Yes. 709 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,160 And then if you've been sharing knowledge, hopefully you can 710 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,680 mention out to people that you've met and shared knowledge 711 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,680 with and one of them will have done that. 712 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,680 Well, or even if you get there and you're like, don't do this 713 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,120 and here's why. And like imagine, imagine, like, 714 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:41,000 you know, being a a new entrepreneur with a SAS product 715 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,160 and you hear something about scaling what not to do and you 716 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,720 remember that and you do it from the start, which is just build 717 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:52,560 it in Elixir in the future. You will thank you, you know 718 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:53,960 and. You're winning. 719 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:54,640 That's right. Yeah. 720 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,720 And then all the soft skills too, right. 721 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,880 Like we, we talked before we turned on about running products 722 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,520 and and marketing is a soft skill. 723 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,160 And I did mention this book. You you mentioned mentioning 724 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,280 this book, so I'll bring it. Out. 725 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,720 Oh yeah, I don't remember. Enough about it, but Marketing 726 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:17,560 for Developers was a a pretty good book at one point for me. 727 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,080 There's a lot of good information in there about how 728 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,040 to do marketing and it's geared toward developers. 729 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:29,120 So if you have a SAS product or, or even if you're doing like 730 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,840 consultancy or something, if you ever have to do any sales and 731 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,960 marketing, maybe take a look at that book. 732 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,240 Wish I could remember specifics but it's been a few years. 733 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,040 Yeah, well, like I really enjoy, like I've been focusing more on 734 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,680 bringing like technical founders and CTOS to the like successful 735 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,920 elixir companies now, because I think it's like everyone sees 736 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,800 unicorns, they see the overnight successes and they think that's 737 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,880 the typical way, right? You raise seed money, you, you 738 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,600 know, you get Series A and it just blows up. 739 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,760 But most people struggle for 10 years and now they have a 740 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,240 product. And I think like having those 741 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:13,760 conversations are so important. And then also like I love 742 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,680 talking to people with successful products that are 743 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,960 technical and have unlocked selling and marketing their 744 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,600 products because I struggle there. 745 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,520 So like, I want that knowledge, you know? 746 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,240 Yeah, like I don't. Are you familiar with Rob 747 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,440 Wallen? I just had him on a couple weeks 748 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,120 ago. He wrote the SAS playbook and 749 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:40,240 he, he was like a, a, a Ruby dev and he built an e-mail SAS 750 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:48,400 platform called Shoot Drip. And, and now he does a lot of 751 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,760 like seed funding and a lot of awesome stuff for like, mostly 752 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:59,680 like technical SAS founders. And he unlocked the superpower 753 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,440 of selling products which so many technical people struggle 754 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,040 with. Like I do because I don't, I get 755 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,080 ADHD immediately when it's just like I'm going to research, you 756 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,040 know, where my best users are. Like, come on. 757 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,400 Like, I don't want to, I hate that stuff. 758 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,240 I don't, I don't want to, I want to just build another cool 759 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,520 feature. But unfortunately it's not about 760 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,080 building it. And they will come. 761 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,400 Right, right. And you know, you mentioned all 762 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,560 that struggling for 10 years. They're struggling through those 763 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,640 things like how, how do I, how do I find the right people? 764 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,880 And, and, but in order to struggle for 10 years, I think 765 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,920 we can all admit that it takes a lot of support. 766 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,960 And we're, and that's another thing about building these 767 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,080 communities and teaching each other as you get that support 768 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,760 from, from other people, which kind of like I'm, I'm a big 769 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,920 proponent of meetups because of that. 770 00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,960 There's nothing like that connection that you get from a 771 00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:02,800 regular sharing of knowledge with the same people. 772 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,480 And just meeting people in person is nice. 773 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,040 Yeah, like, like down in XMEX, it was a small conference, but I 774 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,440 love that so much more because in between talks you were 775 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,800 actually able to talk to everyone at the conference. 776 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:18,480 And so you meet really cool people working on really cool 777 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:24,880 things. And and then and then the 778 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,840 lightning talks too at that. That was Nathan. 779 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,120 That was a good conference. I'm just going to shout you out 780 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:31,240 there. That was a good conference. 781 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:33,560 We got to have another one next year. 782 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,320 I, I, I don't know if he's fully sold on it, but I hope he does 783 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,880 it again because it was good. Yeah, yeah. 784 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,840 And I had good tacos, so. I'll take it, you know, going 785 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,080 down to Austin just for the food is worthwhile. 786 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,480 You know, that's true. That's true, but Austin's a fun 787 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,040 town, I thought. What? 788 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,120 Oh, go ahead. Oh I was going to. 789 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,680 I experienced driving in the fully automated Ubers too. 790 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,760 That was my first time. I forget what they're called 791 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,280 now. Waymo. 792 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,040 Yeah, Waymo. Or the yeah, 'cause yeah, I did 793 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,120 that too. I went to a restaurant on the 794 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,520 first day and and you know, like the app said, are you OK with 795 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,160 one of these? And I had marked yes, but I 796 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,920 didn't even realize that that's what was showing up 'cause I 797 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,680 didn't pay any attention. Yeah, yeah. 798 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,840 And it. Got in and I, I had to video it 799 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,080 and send it to my son. I'm like, this is super weird. 800 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,760 The fact that you could sit in the front seat if you wanted to 801 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,520 like on the passenger side. I was like, that's, that's 802 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,800 really wild. And and like I watched that one 803 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:46,480 point, OK, maybe I'm a little blown away by I like maybe it's 804 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,520 AII don't know, but whatever. It pulled up in like a 805 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:55,440 neighborhood to a stop sign and then it slowly eased forward 806 00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,600 just like a human would to like I guess see around the cars that 807 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,240 were parked on the side. But I was kind of blown away by 808 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:04,960 the fact that it just eased forward. 809 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,600 Also, I was like, OK, that's like, that's like riding with 810 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,120 somebody else. Did you see all the there is 811 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,560 like some crazy controversy around I think it was way MO's 812 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:21,280 in particular with like apparently when emergency 813 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,240 situations happen and like the AI doesn't know what to do and 814 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:29,280 they just like get locked up. There's there's people in like 815 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,720 foreign countries that can come in and control the car. 816 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,400 What? Yeah, yeah. 817 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,680 So there's like India tech support that can like, take 818 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,800 control of the cars. And then, like, people just 819 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,600 found out about this. They're like this seems like a 820 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,440 security problem, like if you can just take over a car in the 821 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,400 US and like cause chaos out of nowhere. 822 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:54,640 Right, right. It's. 823 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,240 Crazy. Or you it's going to be a good 824 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:00,560 movie. Whenever there's like the 825 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,800 president gets in a way mode and somebody takes it over, it's 826 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,160 going to speed drive. We could go down some conspiracy 827 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,080 theory rabbit holes if you want, but I think they can control our 828 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,320 cars for a while now. Oh yeah, yeah, it wouldn't 829 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,880 surprise me. I mean a lot of cars are 830 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,440 tracked. Yeah, well, and a lot of cars 831 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,240 are drive by wire too. Nothing. 832 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:25,840 There's nothing physical about them anymore or mechanical. 833 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,720 Yeah, which is kind of terrifying. 834 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:34,480 It is it I It's neat though. It is neat. 835 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,720 It's really neat, but it's terrifying coming from like 836 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:42,160 manufacturing, like when things go wrong, things can really go 837 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,880 wrong. I used to have a 1970 beetle and 838 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,560 I, I remember just like working on that thing. 839 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,640 It was, it was all mostly pretty simple, right? 840 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,880 And I can, I can do anything. And now if my car breaks, I'm 841 00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,640 like. Hey, yeah, I don't know. 842 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,720 I had a 1973 carbureted scout too. 843 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:07,960 I love that thing. So good, I need an old car. 844 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,960 I I wish I never sold it. My beetle caught fire. 845 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,560 Sad. Yeah, so I'll I'll share the 846 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,320 story. It's it's ridiculous and non 847 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,160 tech related. That's what rabbit holes are 848 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,320 for. Let's go. 849 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,720 I was drive my my wife. I was driving to see her when we 850 00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:33,520 were dating and middle of winter and right before the exit on the 851 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:39,280 Interstate for her town I heard a belt break in the back and it 852 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,160 hit the gas line. And. 853 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,720 Knocked it open and blew gasoline all over the motor and 854 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:47,120 the whole thing went up in flames. 855 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,560 And I stood on the side of the Interstate and the fire 856 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,920 department came up and they mashed in the back window and 857 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,320 sprayed the whole inside of the car. 858 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,800 And while I was standing there, I feel ridiculous saying this 859 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,960 now, but I started crying like I was like really upset. 860 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:08,200 And this fireman, he says it's it's OK, it's OK, you'll get 861 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,240 another one. He's and then he's just trying 862 00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:11,720 to calm me down. He's like, where are you headed? 863 00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:13,080 And I was like my fiance's house. 864 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,440 And he goes, oh, you won't get another one. 865 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,840 That's like. Thanks. 866 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,880 That's hilarious. And he's right. 867 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,440 I haven't gotten another one yet, but we've talked about it a 868 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,400 few times. She's on, she's on board for it, 869 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,160 but just got to find the right time in life when I have time to 870 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:36,080 work on it again. Yeah, I've always what what I 871 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:42,040 always want to do now is do like the replica version, like get a 872 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:49,600 69 like Camaro or Mustang and have it look like that, but with 873 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,440 all modern day technology like fuel injected engine, good 874 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,520 brakes. Then I can't work on it, that's 875 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,360 true. Because like there is like 876 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,200 something about a carbureted engine you can like, it's so 877 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:02,560 much easier. You can adjust it with a 878 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,040 screwdriver. Right, right. 879 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,720 I can mess it up with a screwdriver too, but that too. 880 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,880 But you can also UN mess it up. Yeah, yeah, that's hilarious. 881 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,880 Is that your dream car like a a late 60s Camaro? 882 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,080 No, probably more. I would probably learn more 883 00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,640 towards a Mustang or something like that. 884 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,520 But yeah. Or early 70s, somewhere around 885 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,400 there. But I'd also take my Scout too 886 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,880 back. Like 'cause the Scout's pretty. 887 00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:36,720 I had a baby blue Scout and I was when I was living in Los 888 00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:41,280 Angeles when I had it and my I, I was the first owner. 889 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:46,280 I cut the seals and took the hard top off and it never 890 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,520 rained. So I didn't have the roof on for 891 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,480 four years living there and I just drove everywhere. 892 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,320 It's beautiful. And what's cool is you're like, 893 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,360 well, Los Angeles, don't you worry about, like, people effing 894 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,560 up your car. Dude, knock on wood. 895 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,200 No one ever messed with my car. I think there's like a strange 896 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,840 respect for classics. Like people just don't. 897 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,280 They don't want to mess it up, you know? 898 00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:12,360 Yeah. Yeah, so nothing ever got stolen 899 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:13,800 out of it. Nothing ever. 900 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,680 Like a homeless person was never sleeping in the back seat. 901 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,320 It just worked out. I don't know. 902 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,720 I've. Never thought about somebody 903 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,360 sleeping in the back seat. I'd just I'd just get him a 904 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,160 burger and fries and wake him up. 905 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,160 Be like, hey, do you mind getting off my car? 906 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,720 Oh. Man, yeah, I've always wanted 907 00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:43,160 like a like a 67 Chevy Nova. There you go. 908 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,000 I, I have no idea why there's, there's just something with that 909 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,000 car that I'm like, I really like that car. 910 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:51,800 You got to just do. It you look beautiful. 911 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,320 No. Yeah, but all the old classic 912 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,600 cars just look so good, just like the square bodies and like 913 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,960 even like now, like a early 90s pickup truck. 914 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,880 Like they're just so cool. I miss them. 915 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,920 I hated them when they. Were I know, but now you 916 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,360 nostalgia bring them back because now all of our cars look 917 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,000 the same. Now you're talking about how old 918 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,480 we are. I know that's embarrassing. 919 00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:24,560 I remember when I was in high school, our family car for all 920 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,880 the kids, we had a 98 diesel Jetta. 921 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,440 It was like that square bodied Jetta, but like because it 922 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,680 because it was diesel, we got like 58 miles to the gallon. 923 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,240 Wow. It was awesome, I could put like 924 00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:39,040 2 bucks in that thing and it would be good for two weeks. 925 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,800 That was back when $2.00 would buy you 2 gallons. 926 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,320 Of yes, that is true, that doesn't happen. 927 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,120 That was also when diesel was cheaper than unleaded. 928 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:53,160 Oh yeah. Wow. 929 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,840 Yeah. I remember my first car, the 930 00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,200 first time I went and filled up right before I turned 16, gas 931 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,480 had gone up above a dollar. I'm really aging myself now. 932 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,880 And then by the time I got my license, it had dropped right 933 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,040 back below a dollar. And I remember people being 934 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:11,880 like, it'll never go over a dollar again. 935 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:17,840 That's hilarious. I remember it being like $1.30 I 936 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,760 feel like but never lower than that. 937 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,440 Yeah, you, you. I lived in a small farm town in 938 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,960 Illinois so it probably helped. Keep the price. 939 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,000 We're our neighbors. I grew up in Wisconsin, in 940 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,600 Milwaukee. Oh, nice, nice. 941 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:32,520 Milwaukee Milwaukee's a fun town. 942 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,840 See the Fonzie statue. Yep, there you go. 943 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,920 And in the summer, you guaranteed there's some sort of 944 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,320 beer festival every weekend somewhere. 945 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,440 I'm OK with that. Yeah, me too. 946 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,640 It's. OK, If we end up at a conference 947 00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,800 again, we we might have. To, I mean elixir conf is in 948 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,880 Chicago this year. Oh that's that's true. 949 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,240 I should probably try and make it up there. 950 00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,520 It's not that far. Michael Stettler brought that up 951 00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,520 to me the other day and I was like, oh, because he lives in 952 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,200 Illinois. I was like, that would be a fun 953 00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:07,320 one actually, because I can get up to Milwaukee too and visit 954 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,040 family. Nice. 955 00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:11,080 Yeah, I might take a train up there. 956 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,400 I like to. Go trains are fun. 957 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,920 Yeah, just chill. No real security. 958 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,920 Maybe I shouldn't say that out loud, but you just carry your 959 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,000 stuff on like we don't care. Yeah, there you go. 960 00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,880 Yeah, You know what, you kind of forget about that, having to go 961 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,800 through airports 'cause you just used to all the BS security that 962 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,800 you have to do, right. At least they stopped making 963 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:44,120 making us take our shoes off. I here they do that on some they 964 00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:46,600 they've only upgraded some of the things, which is funny 965 00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,200 because we have an airport that's like 2 years old, but 966 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,560 they were testing out new devices. 967 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,880 So they have a couple of the new ones and then they have some 968 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,360 some like the ones right before that. 969 00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,800 So you still have to take your shoes off depending on what line 970 00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,800 you. I want to not take my laptop out 971 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,600 of my bag, that would be a huge plus. 972 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:13,760 I bought a bag backpack that has a laptop separate and it's got a 973 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,320 zipper that opens all the way and so you lay it flat. 974 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,960 And so one side only has a laptop and most places it says 975 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,640 it's TSA approved. Most places, as long as the only 976 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,640 thing in that side is your laptop, they'll let it go 977 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,640 through. But every once in a while I end 978 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,120 up at A at a place where they're like, no. 979 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,040 But the new ones in Kansas City, where you don't have to take 980 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,320 your shoes off, you also don't have to take your electronics 981 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:36,400 out of your. Oh, that's nice. 982 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,600 That's nice. Like I'd rather them just flag 983 00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,520 my bag and go through it than having to like take it all apart 984 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,720 before. I don't know. 985 00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:48,320 Yeah, I don't know. It's just it's I don't annoys. 986 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,200 Me the the only time that I've ever been with anybody that got 987 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,680 flagged was actually from my first podcast. 988 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:01,920 We were going to a an Agile games conference in Boston and 989 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,720 on our way home, one of the guys with me had a stack of note 990 00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:10,760 cards in his backpack. And I guess this like dense set 991 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,840 of note cards. They were like, we need to look 992 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,640 in there. And he did not take it well. 993 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:17,640 He was tired and ready to go home. 994 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,400 And he's like, whoa, no cards. So dude, I'm like, shut up. 995 00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:25,720 We just need to get on this plane and go home. 996 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,520 I get it. But yeah, sometimes you just got 997 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,120 to go through the process, right? 998 00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:34,280 It would be fun. Yeah. 999 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:35,840 I think going to Chicago would be fun. 1000 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,960 And then like I could do some like in person podcasts that 1001 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,160 could be like just grab people, be like let's. 1002 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:46,720 Those are always fun, yeah. Are you what, if you don't mind 1003 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,560 me asking, whatever happened to like, elixir outlaws? 1004 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,920 Life. Just got busy and it faded away. 1005 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:56,600 Got. So busy. 1006 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,160 And then, yeah, just slowly faded away. 1007 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,680 It's funny because we've talked about doing it again, like, and 1008 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:05,880 I've talked about doing it again. 1009 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:10,480 But yeah, it was just kids I had. 1010 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,800 I had three teenage kids at home all in high school and trying to 1011 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:21,200 be independent teenage kids, and that was exhausting. 1012 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,080 And then trying to jam it in at lunchtime when we do the 1013 00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,760 recording just because we could. And then, I don't know, just 1014 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,120 became work. And I've always said, you know, 1015 00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,000 the one thing is once it becomes too much work, then I don't want 1016 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,320 to do it anymore because I already have a job. 1017 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,680 Yeah, no, I feel that. I that's why I live stream this, 1018 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,360 because then I don't have any post. 1019 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,600 It's just like the time it takes to do it and then it's done. 1020 00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,240 I mean, there's a little, there's a little post, but I 1021 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,600 don't have to edit because editing is the hard part. 1022 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:57,120 Yeah, I started out so the the original Elixir Outlaws, like 1023 00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,960 the first couple episodes didn't really edit at all. 1024 00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:05,560 And then I was doing editing and it would take me 8 hours on a 1025 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:10,040 Saturday to to go through. And because we had everybody 1026 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:14,320 record on a separate track. Oh, just if they talked over top 1027 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:15,840 of each other. But it was really important. 1028 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,240 Then I was able to space it so that we can still hear both of 1029 00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,680 them. And just like all of that work, 1030 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,720 it ended up being like, I, I just can't do this. 1031 00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,760 So then my daughter, my oldest daughter was getting ready to go 1032 00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,320 to college and I was like, hey, need to make some money for 1033 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:33,120 college. And I paid her to I showed her 1034 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:33,800 how to do it. Paid. 1035 00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:39,720 Her and. Because of that, Chris Keithley 1036 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,520 used to make all kinds of jokes on there and talk about stuff 1037 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,480 and he's talking about physical therapy. 1038 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,360 And he had to, they would take these marbles and cover, cover 1039 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,040 them with like Jelly or oil and then make him pick him up off 1040 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,320 the floor with his toes and try to fill up this jar. 1041 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,120 And so he talked about foot marbles. 1042 00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,200 And then I would go to visit my daughter at college and like all 1043 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,640 of her friends, they're not tech people at all. 1044 01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,920 I would be walking with her at college and they would walk up 1045 01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,480 and be like foot marbles. That's. 1046 01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:09,280 Hilarious. What's? 1047 01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,600 Going on. That is so funny. 1048 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:18,560 They were accidentally being educated on the side right right 1049 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,520 in elixir it. It was because they would like 1050 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,520 be in the room when my daughter was editing it. 1051 01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,080 They were her friends and. That's funny. 1052 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:27,440 That's awesome. I love that. 1053 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:33,120 I think like I've been bad at getting tutorials out and it's 1054 01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:37,120 because of the editing, because it's just like when you're busy, 1055 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:38,720 it's like the last thing you want to do. 1056 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,000 Right. Because like, maybe you should 1057 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,560 do. Maybe you should do that stuff 1058 01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:44,360 live. I thought about it. 1059 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,040 Sometimes like it when you run into an error, right? 1060 01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,680 That is just a teaching moment. Like it is somebody, somebody 1061 01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,280 needs that. And it is. 1062 01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,160 That's true. So that is true. 1063 01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,800 Just let it go. I just gotta do it like 1064 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:03,920 normally. Like sometimes I'll have errors 1065 01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,720 that I leave in because I don't. I hate when you, like, if you 1066 01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,960 accidentally get someone in the same corner as you, but your 1067 01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,280 code mysteriously works normally, you like, you got to 1068 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,280 fix that kind of stuff. But yeah, maybe I do. 1069 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,800 I for a while I was doing a couple live streams. 1070 01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,600 But yeah, it would be better because I did, I started an Ash 1071 01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,120 framework course and I've only done like the first couple 1072 01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,360 videos and just left people hanging. 1073 01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,080 But life, life has been so busy. I just need to, yeah. 1074 01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:37,080 Yeah, well, and then those errors that you run into, then 1075 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,760 you also get to show how to figure out what the heck they 1076 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:40,800 mean. That's true. 1077 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:47,000 Well, like I feel like learning how to fix problems, like 1078 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,200 reading the error logs and everything that's it's a skill 1079 01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,120 in itself. Even like some debugging is like 1080 01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,600 you. You learn that from years of 1081 01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,360 debugging and that's the only way you can really do it. 1082 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,200 I do. I do appreciate the errors on 1083 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,280 compiling though coming out of Elixir. 1084 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,560 They me too. Most of the time can tell you 1085 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,440 exactly what's brought, what the problem is, yeah, which is also 1086 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,720 frustrating. Like like did you mean this? 1087 01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:17,920 Why just change it for me? Yeah, that's hilarious. 1088 01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,960 It looks like you're missing an end on line 70. 1089 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:22,720 Well, just put it in for me. Let's. 1090 01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:24,640 Yeah. Let's see if it works. 1091 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:27,920 Just do it. I mean which is nice. 1092 01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:32,480 Now with LIKE using like LLMS in your workflow kind of can do 1093 01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,240 that. I guess that's true. 1094 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,520 That's true. I always, I always get 1095 01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,840 frustrated every time I try the LLMS again. 1096 01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:44,000 Is that, you know, you give it a set of rules and then sometimes 1097 01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,480 it breaks them. So those rules are not rules, 1098 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,040 they're just suggestions to it. Oh yeah, sometimes it'll ignore 1099 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,560 them completely. You'll be like, hey, do not like 1100 01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:58,440 use pattern matching in your head functions over like 1101 01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,320 conditionals, you know? And it always will revert and 1102 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,960 want to use conditionals over pattern matching with functions. 1103 01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:10,120 Yeah, yeah. And it's like come on bro, get 1104 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,120 it? Don't make me run Credo strict 1105 01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:17,600 on you and then you're going to get yelled at for having too 1106 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:23,360 much nested code. I just I feel like I need to 1107 01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:30,120 read I robot again now. I'd never have read it, but it's 1108 01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:31,680 probably it would probably be a good book. 1109 01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,680 Yeah, have have you seen the movie? 1110 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:39,600 I've seen the movie, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it, it's, the 1111 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:41,640 movie's got it so. Yeah, OK. 1112 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,240 Yeah, it's got the the idea that I'm thinking of anyways, just 1113 01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,320 that you can give them some rules and then they find out I 1114 01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,640 maybe I can break that rule. Oh, I don't have to listen to 1115 01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:56,120 this. Yeah, I'm curious as like you're 1116 01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,840 you're are you're a staff engineer now, right? 1117 01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,080 What what was like the what was the shift to like? 1118 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:07,080 Do you still write code or not really? 1119 01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,480 I do, I do. So I write code every day. 1120 01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:15,840 Right now I'm working on doing some property testing of a 1121 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:21,680 distributed system. But yeah, I think, I think the 1122 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:27,040 big thing for me that separates like a senior from a staff is 1123 01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:31,320 actually the like willingness, often not just ability, but 1124 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,280 willingness to teach. Yeah. 1125 01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:35,720 And willingness to take the time. 1126 01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:40,160 I mean, there's some experience level of like you've seen enough 1127 01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,360 things. But I can tell you if, if I, 1128 01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:45,200 I've done some embedded system stuff, but if I went to an 1129 01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:49,000 embedded systems team, I might as well be a junior developer 1130 01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,280 for the most part anymore. It's been too long. 1131 01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:56,040 But if you're willing to share the knowledge that you have and 1132 01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,240 take the time to not just like you do a code review, you can't, 1133 01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:05,760 you can't just say this looks bad or yes or no. 1134 01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,040 You you have to say why. Why is this year? 1135 01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:11,640 Why would you make the decision differently than they did? 1136 01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:17,680 And and be willing to put your ideas out there and take that 1137 01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,560 extra time to to not just say, hey, change the code here. 1138 01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,520 Don't just make a code suggestion, say why and offer to 1139 01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,440 pair with them. Yeah, yeah. 1140 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:32,000 To me, that's that's what makes a real staff engineer, somebody 1141 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,640 who's who's helping guide the team in the product. 1142 01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,560 You probably need some pretty decent soft skills as well. 1143 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,640 Try. I work on those a lot. 1144 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:46,920 Well, I think it's like it's really easy. 1145 01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:52,160 I feel like I don't have it so much at the my current company, 1146 01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:58,440 but I've in the past, like engineers have been, they're not 1147 01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,800 assholes, but they'll come across as assholes, right? 1148 01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,080 Like because they'll be like really harsh with comments or 1149 01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:05,920 whatever. And you kind of learn to not 1150 01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:08,800 take stuff personally. Like it's just, you know, they 1151 01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:10,600 don't want bad code going into the code base. 1152 01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,240 Sure. And you take it as like a 1153 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,680 learning experience. But I feel like as you start 1154 01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:21,280 managing developers, you kind of you have to be a little nicer in 1155 01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:25,520 at least the way you deliver. I remember telling somebody on 1156 01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,640 the team that worked with me a long time ago, they're just 1157 01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:35,480 feelings, they go away. And I, I still feel that way a 1158 01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:38,960 little bit, like ultimately our goal should be to make a good 1159 01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,760 product, but they're just feelings. 1160 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,400 They do go away, but they're sometimes the most important 1161 01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,880 thing in the situation and figuring out how to handle that. 1162 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,400 And so I feel like you got to lay a lot of groundwork too, 1163 01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,800 because sometimes you're going to say things that are going to 1164 01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,360 run, rub people the wrong way. So you have to lay groundwork 1165 01:06:56,360 --> 01:07:00,600 that says you can trust me, we're both after the same goal 1166 01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:05,760 and, you know, do things with your team where I think we we 1167 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,240 mentioned this. If you have a bug, it's our bug. 1168 01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,160 It's our problem, not you did this. 1169 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,080 It's never you. It's always our we, everything 1170 01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,720 is we and our, which I actually kind of probably go maybe too 1171 01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,720 far to the we an hour. If I, if I did it, it's always 1172 01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,560 my problem. But like I noticed that in 1173 01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:29,520 commit messages and PRS, even if I worked alone, I, I write big 1174 01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:34,760 commit messages and I'll often say we, we made this decision 1175 01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:36,640 because of this. And I'm like, Oh, I actually 1176 01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,960 worked by myself, but I've like internalized that it's our 1177 01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,720 product and it's me who are getting this going forward. 1178 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:46,720 And so at the end of the day, it's it's not me that matters. 1179 01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,800 It's the product that matters. And every once in a while, 1180 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,400 somebody even says something to me that makes my feelings get 1181 01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:53,760 hurt. And I got to take a step back 1182 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,280 and be like, look, what's the goal here? 1183 01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:57,960 And. Where are we headed? 1184 01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:02,440 I remember when I first became like junior, like my first job, 1185 01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:08,600 like PR reviews would like hurt my feelings or like, or finding 1186 01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,080 bugs in the feature that I wrote hurt my feelings. 1187 01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:14,320 And it's like so silly to me now because it's just like, we just 1188 01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,479 can't have a bug in the code. Like it's nothing personal. 1189 01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,359 We just have to fix it. And I think everything's so 1190 01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:23,120 personal. But it's real easy, Jacob. 1191 01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,680 Just don't write bugs. Yeah, just don't write shitty 1192 01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:30,720 code, bro. One of the funniest things, a 1193 01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:35,720 guy I used to work with, he's kind of like, you know, you're, 1194 01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:41,800 you're developer with maybe not the greatest social skills. 1195 01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:46,160 But I remember we had like a junior on our team and it, it 1196 01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:48,479 was, it should have been a better teaching moment. 1197 01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,720 But I remember he made a comment that he just said this. 1198 01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:56,040 Is it like he just wrote what in the Stack Overflow question mark 1199 01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,560 and just left it? No more feedback other than 1200 01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,760 that. Like I laughed, but it also like 1201 01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,920 is not a helpful comment. Not a staff level engineer, no. 1202 01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:16,479 What in the stack overflow? I would probably unfortunately 1203 01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:20,040 laugh if I read that. Yeah, I mean I laughed, but I 1204 01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,040 also then also realized it wasn't a helpful comment to the 1205 01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:26,279 guy that wrote the code. Yeah, yeah, not at all. 1206 01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:28,800 Didn't do him any good. He just said oh, it's bad. 1207 01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:30,160 I don't know what? I don't know why. 1208 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:31,960 Yeah. I mean, I don't even know what 1209 01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,960 part bothered you. That was just a highlighted 1210 01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,840 block of code, you know, and what in the Stack Overflow. 1211 01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,960 And younger developers probably won't even understand that joke. 1212 01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:48,200 But. Yeah, I wonder how much Stack 1213 01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:51,120 Overflow is being hurt by AI. Yeah. 1214 01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:56,080 I don't know, times are changing. 1215 01:09:56,480 --> 01:09:59,800 I mean, people don't even use search engines anymore, they 1216 01:09:59,920 --> 01:10:02,800 just ask LLMS. Right, right. 1217 01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,400 Or even if you do go to Google, like half the I have time. 1218 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,200 At the top, yeah. Yep, yeah, just read the AI and 1219 01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,600 move on like. But I've also seen that be 1220 01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:16,120 wrong. The other day somebody gave me 1221 01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:20,640 the idea And so I, I got turned on ChatGPT audio and I said, 1222 01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:24,240 hey, can you count from 1 to 200 for me? 1223 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:29,480 And it said, sure, it's going to take a while, but I'll do it 1224 01:10:29,480 --> 01:10:36,360 123456 and so on until we get to 198 one 99200 and then we're 1225 01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:37,320 done. Thanks. 1226 01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:41,640 And then we moved on. I was like, wait, you didn't do 1227 01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:44,240 what I asked you to do. I'm sorry. 1228 01:10:44,440 --> 01:10:46,960 I'll do it again. And it did the like the same 1229 01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,080 thing, but it had some different number ranges, like it moved 1230 01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,880 them. But it I was like a you're like 1231 01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:57,880 dealing with a fifth grader kid who just like I don't want, I 1232 01:10:57,960 --> 01:10:59,840 don't. Yeah, Like, are you serious 1233 01:10:59,960 --> 01:11:03,760 right now? Have you seen the funny? 1234 01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:07,240 I don't know if it's real or not, but where where they did 1235 01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,480 that? Like can you count from 1 to 1236 01:11:09,480 --> 01:11:12,840 200? And they had like the female 1237 01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:17,800 voice selected and she's like, no, that'll just take too much 1238 01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:19,280 time. But here's how you would start 1239 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,040 it. And it did something similar. 1240 01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:22,520 And then they're like interesting. 1241 01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:25,480 And then they change it to like the male and the male voice. 1242 01:11:25,480 --> 01:11:28,520 They just start counting all the way through and doesn't try to 1243 01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,280 like change the change the message in. 1244 01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,480 And it made me laugh but I don't know if it was real or not. 1245 01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,800 Yeah, I I doubt it. I could not get it to count to 1246 01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,000 200 for anything so. That's hilarious. 1247 01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:46,200 Which it kind of makes sense because it's like silly to use 1248 01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:50,480 an LLM just to output something like that, but it shouldn't be 1249 01:11:50,480 --> 01:11:52,360 hard. They could just do it in one 1250 01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:55,400 response. My thing is, if I ask a computer 1251 01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:56,520 to do it, I feel like. It should. 1252 01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:58,200 It should do it. Yeah, that's true. 1253 01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:00,560 Yeah. I'm still waiting for the day 1254 01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:04,760 when AI will mow my yard and do my dishes like that's the things 1255 01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:06,600 I want it to do. I know. 1256 01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:08,680 All right. Clean the house, like just have 1257 01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,880 a nice little like assistant that does everything for you. 1258 01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:17,000 Yeah, that would be nice. One day, one day maybe, maybe 1259 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:19,600 we'll see it. I don't, I'm like, I'm creeped 1260 01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:23,280 out just having like a Ring camera on a doorbell though, 1261 01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,880 like, and then you're going to let these things in your house. 1262 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,960 Yeah, yeah, that's I don't want cameras in my house. 1263 01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:33,280 Yeah. Well, but if you had like a a 1264 01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:38,240 robot or something that. Yeah, yeah. 1265 01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:42,000 Yeah, I already don't like having the camera on my laptop 1266 01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:46,000 after. All Do you put tape over it? 1267 01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:51,200 I don't now now that Mac got rid of the border. 1268 01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:53,720 Yeah. Like where they had the camera, 1269 01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:55,880 now there's no border. I'm like, well now where do I 1270 01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:57,880 put? That I hate how the tape looks. 1271 01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:02,440 I always used to like get those thin plastic slide stickers but 1272 01:13:02,440 --> 01:13:06,080 then. But then Apple changed the the 1273 01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:09,000 thickness of the bevel and you like, people started cracking 1274 01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:12,240 their screens when they would close the computer. 1275 01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,040 Yeah, 'cause they couldn't make the plastic slide thin enough. 1276 01:13:16,440 --> 01:13:18,880 And so that's. Weird from conference swag. 1277 01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:24,080 Yep. Dang yeah I don't. 1278 01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:26,600 I just always hope that the light comes on when the camera 1279 01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:28,040 comes. On. 1280 01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,480 Something tells me though, that can be controlled. 1281 01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,320 Yeah, I'm sure I'm. Sure. 1282 01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:39,440 And like I use a like a DSLR for this camera, right. 1283 01:13:39,440 --> 01:13:44,280 But I, I have AI physically turn the power off to it when it's 1284 01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:46,080 off. So I have like a little stream 1285 01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:49,240 deck and an Elgato plug and that thing is off. 1286 01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:53,960 Yeah, I should. I should probably start using 1287 01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:56,400 mine. My wife was a photographer and 1288 01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:58,680 so we have, we have those sitting around. 1289 01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:00,760 It just looks so much. Maybe I wouldn't look so pale 1290 01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,440 right now if I if I had that out there. 1291 01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,120 Or if I could get heard lightning lighting in my office, 1292 01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:08,280 it would probably be a lot better. 1293 01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:11,160 Or maybe just a little bit of sun, you know? 1294 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:16,200 Well, IA little bit of sun makes me catch fire, so you. 1295 01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,680 Just get burned right away, yeah. 1296 01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:23,040 I look like I I blend in with this wall back here if I oh. 1297 01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:27,040 That's funny. You'll just be a little orange. 1298 01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:29,040 You'll be fine. Yeah, I'll be fine. 1299 01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:32,480 I'll be fine. Yeah. 1300 01:14:32,480 --> 01:14:38,000 I, I feel like we've gotten way, way off topic and down the 1301 01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:42,320 rabbit hole, but I just like, I had a little bit of a thought 1302 01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:49,240 back on on that is that I really want, I feel like meetups kind 1303 01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:53,960 of started slowing down after, after in person meetups, 1304 01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:57,080 especially after COVID. Yeah, COVID screwed it all up. 1305 01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,600 And I'd really like to see them come back. 1306 01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,480 Yeah. And I just want to say it out 1307 01:15:03,480 --> 01:15:05,240 loud so that other people will hear it. 1308 01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:10,040 Like please do meetups. I'll if you don't have anybody 1309 01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:12,200 give a talk, give me a call. I'll see what I can. 1310 01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:14,240 If I can fly there and do it, I don't mind. 1311 01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,800 We, there's an elixir meet up here and I've been bad at making 1312 01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,880 it. In fact, I don't even know if 1313 01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:26,440 they've been doing them consistently, but they were fun. 1314 01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:32,840 I did, I did a talk, I was like, I did one of the revival. 1315 01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:38,000 I was like the group got revived after like a couple years, maybe 1316 01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,760 a year and a half ago. And I did one of the first talks 1317 01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:45,040 there and it was fun. And I'm bad at getting to 1318 01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,320 physical events because like the end of the day comes and I'm 1319 01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:50,880 just like, I'm tired. I don't want to drive. 1320 01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,040 For three minutes, especially working at home yeah yeah yeah 1321 01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:58,360 yeah yeah that that drive home that drive home whenever you 1322 01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:01,280 went to the meet up straight from work was a whole lot easier 1323 01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:03,160 than. Exactly. 1324 01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,680 Leaving your house together. And that's just it. 1325 01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:07,840 They're like right after work would let out, right? 1326 01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:11,920 So you're also fighting traffic because you have to drive there 1327 01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:14,600 instead of being in a nearby office or something. 1328 01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:19,080 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, like, I've been to 1329 01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:20,800 a bunch of online meetups and I love them. 1330 01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:24,400 I love the fact that we can share stuff around the world and 1331 01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:28,400 build bigger, wider communities. But there's something about, you 1332 01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:31,400 know, waiting for the talk or after the talk or whatever where 1333 01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:33,840 you're just standing around talking to other people and you 1334 01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:38,440 mention a problem that you have at work and then somebody 1335 01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,920 happens to give you a solution or at least helps you think 1336 01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,760 through it. Like, I don't know, I love this 1337 01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:45,960 job. I love thinking through all 1338 01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:48,360 these problems. And so when somebody I'm easily 1339 01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:52,080 nerd sniped. Or just like a a new like a 1340 01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:56,960 creative solution that just makes your complex 1 so much 1341 01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:01,920 like just so much easier because how often do you over engineer 1342 01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:06,880 solving a problem and then you can fix it with something 10 1343 01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,320 times easier? About every hour. 1344 01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:14,160 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's, that's actually 1345 01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,400 most of my code review stuff like, hey, this code works. 1346 01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,600 It's it's pretty decent. We could eliminate half of it if 1347 01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:22,240 we just change the way we approach this problem. 1348 01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:29,040 Yeah, like in in the property test stuff that I'm working on, 1349 01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:32,400 somebody else at work was working on some of that and 1350 01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,800 doing some property testing too. And we're doing a generator and 1351 01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,040 they had, I had a generator. It worked. 1352 01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:40,120 It did some really complex stuff. 1353 01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:42,600 And I was like, oh, that's really cool. 1354 01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,760 We could just pick one of the ones we are. 1355 01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:48,800 It was like trying to generate a piece of data that we may 1356 01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:50,520 already have. And it was like doing all these 1357 01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:52,120 generating data and then doing all these checks. 1358 01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:55,880 And I was like, we could just pick one of the pieces of data 1359 01:17:55,880 --> 01:18:00,640 we already have and he's like, and then sometimes make it pick 1360 01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:03,120 something that we don't already have so that every once in a 1361 01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:06,440 while we get that that test, that data that says, oh, I can't 1362 01:18:06,440 --> 01:18:09,600 delete it, it's not there. Dude property tests are so cool. 1363 01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:11,640 Just they are. They are. 1364 01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:16,400 They're brilliant. If if anybody hasn't read Fred 1365 01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:20,600 Aber's book from Prague, Prague, I forget the title of it 1366 01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:23,760 exactly, I have it behind me somewhere. 1367 01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:27,320 I don't see it. I don't. 1368 01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:31,720 Know if anybody can hear me while I was turned around, but 1369 01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:35,960 it's it's property testing with prop check and really like the 1370 01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:40,240 state based property testing is is kind of where it's at. 1371 01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:44,120 It's one thing to test the math problem, it's another thing to 1372 01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:48,880 be able to test a full system. Yeah, I'm trying to pull up the 1373 01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:57,200 name of the book right now. Oh that's that's not what I 1374 01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:02,080 want. Is it just property based 1375 01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:07,520 testing with prop, ER Erlang and Elixir? 1376 01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:13,880 Yep, that's it. Great book. 1377 01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:17,280 Sweet, I have not read it. I will have to add it to my 1378 01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:21,840 list. He also has proper testing.com 1379 01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:27,360 and they have an old version of the book for free on the website 1380 01:19:30,440 --> 01:19:34,680 and then he didn't he so he did it originally as like a online 1381 01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:36,760 book. He also has another great book 1382 01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:46,840 read Everything by Freddie Bear. He does Freddie Bear, Erlang and 1383 01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:49,560 anger. I had to think about it. 1384 01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:53,960 That is all about how to figure out what's going on with your 1385 01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,920 system whenever it's not working as you want. 1386 01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:03,440 It's very cool. I'm just going to plug 1387 01:20:03,440 --> 01:20:05,520 everything Fred right now because. 1388 01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:12,080 His blog is great. The The Zen of Erlang see this 1389 01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:13,840 is this is knowledge sharing in action. 1390 01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:17,760 Fred just shares all of his knowledge and I pretend I'm 1391 01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:20,240 smart, but I'm really just regurgitating Fred. 1392 01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:23,840 I mean, that's that's me. If I say anything smart, it 1393 01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:26,760 doesn't happen often, but it's like probably because I heard it 1394 01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:31,960 somewhere else. That's awesome. 1395 01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:34,640 No, yeah. The like property based testing. 1396 01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:39,200 I'm trying to add more to my projects just because it helps 1397 01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:41,480 you find so many edge cases so much quicker. 1398 01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:45,080 It's one of the most humbling experiences as a developer. 1399 01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,480 First of all, they're not always easy to write. 1400 01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,600 You have to figure out what actually is a property of your 1401 01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,400 code. But then when you finally get 1402 01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:55,320 it, you're like, yeah, I wrote that test. 1403 01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:58,120 And then it tells you how wrong you were on your implementation 1404 01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,720 and, and it'll do that to you over and over. 1405 01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:05,640 And it's really, it's really like sad to see code that you 1406 01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:07,640 thought was perfect just get destroyed. 1407 01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:12,760 Yeah, well, but then it becomes perfect. 1408 01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:17,160 Yes, yes, as long as you pick the right properties, yeah. 1409 01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:23,920 I mean like, writing good tests is hard, yeah, writing a test to 1410 01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:29,800 pass is not beneficial at all, but writing a good test that. 1411 01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:33,440 Passes and figuring out where to start, right? 1412 01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:38,680 Yeah, and I, I was recently talking to might have been my 1413 01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:40,480 son-in-law. He's also a developer. 1414 01:21:40,480 --> 01:21:45,680 And I was like, man, just make, make a property test that just 1415 01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:51,000 says it returns a list and it just gets your your brain going. 1416 01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,040 You're like, I can do that. And then as soon as you write 1417 01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:55,280 that, you're like, oh, oh, actually it's a list of 1418 01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:56,960 integers. So now I can write that, I can 1419 01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,600 add that to it. And then you just end up getting 1420 01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:04,600 to the right place over there. But sometimes just that stupid 1421 01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:07,840 first Test is just just just write something dumb. 1422 01:22:08,440 --> 01:22:12,920 Write something dumb that passes right, right, right and then 1423 01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,960 iterate. Yeah, I think I feel like dumb 1424 01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:17,320 ideas are what changed the world. 1425 01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:22,720 I, I say at work a lot, all I, I'll say I've got this dumb idea 1426 01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:24,040 and people are like, that's not a dumb idea. 1427 01:22:24,040 --> 01:22:25,880 I'm like, no, no, no, all ideas are dumb. 1428 01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:29,720 Every single idea is dumb. And if you get that through your 1429 01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:33,520 head, then nobody on the team ever feels bad about throwing 1430 01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:37,600 out some idea because every idea you're going to call it dumb, 1431 01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:39,760 even if it's brilliant. You're like, that's dumb. 1432 01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:41,240 We should do that. We should do. 1433 01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:45,040 That it's brilliantly dumb. Let's do that. 1434 01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:50,720 But it it causes a lot more creative ideas. 1435 01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:53,200 So that's that's one of my other. 1436 01:22:54,440 --> 01:22:56,920 Just feeling. Tax right? 1437 01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:01,080 Yes. Well, I feel like the biggest 1438 01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:06,240 problem among at least programmers is no one wants to 1439 01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:08,720 look dumb. It's like a fear, right? 1440 01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:11,760 Like imposter syndrome kind of hits you, but at the same time 1441 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:14,560 if you're just talking through a problem, getting all the dumb 1442 01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:18,000 ideas out is really beneficial. Right. 1443 01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:20,480 Because it leads to conversation. 1444 01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:24,640 Part parts of eight dumb ideas become one really brilliant 1445 01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:26,360 idea. Yep, exactly. 1446 01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:31,480 Yeah, like when you're running into weird constraints because 1447 01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:35,640 of the database you you used. It's not necessarily. 1448 01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:38,680 Maybe it's not the database that's the problem, it's just 1449 01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:41,280 how you're trying to implement it on the tool you're using. 1450 01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:43,480 Like, yeah. Yeah. 1451 01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:48,200 What I watched a dumb idea save a company. 1452 01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:54,120 We had query that by the. At first it was fine and then 1453 01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:57,240 the company had been around for years in this this It was an 1454 01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:01,000 events table and they were trying to find an event that 1455 01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,080 happened closest to a given time. 1456 01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:05,440 So it could be before it could be after it could be the exact 1457 01:24:05,440 --> 01:24:08,080 time and they had a pretty complex query to do it. 1458 01:24:08,720 --> 01:24:15,040 And the answer came up to be why not just two queries like find 1459 01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:21,640 limit where you're ascending from that date, limit where your 1460 01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:24,360 D limit one where you're where you're sorted. 1461 01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:28,120 What did I say? Ascending descending from that 1462 01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:29,640 date. And so now you have two 1463 01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:34,840 different numbers and then in the actual program code compare 1464 01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,400 them. But it was because the query was 1465 01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:39,720 doing some complex. Why would you want to write 2 1466 01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:43,640 queries when you can write 1? Well the one query was taken 1467 01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:48,960 like a minute and the two queries together and the code 1468 01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:51,840 was under 20 milliseconds. Your table joins are just in the 1469 01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:54,080 wrong order. You have to fix the one query 1470 01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:58,480 now. Yeah, yeah, there is like the 1471 01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:02,280 that's like kind of leads back to the performance problems you 1472 01:25:02,280 --> 01:25:06,760 don't run into on smaller systems sometimes that you do at 1473 01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:11,280 scale and it's like sometimes it's better to have two queries 1474 01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:13,760 instead of 1 query that gets it back. 1475 01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:15,120 Yeah. Yeah. 1476 01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:19,080 And like we're programmed like the one queries the only way, 1477 01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:22,640 because that's the cleanest way. Yeah, there's a I'm only calling 1478 01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:23,920 it once. It's got to be faster. 1479 01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:27,760 Yeah, exactly. And we I think we put too much 1480 01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:30,200 on our databases. We definitely do. 1481 01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:33,000 They they feel magical until they're not. 1482 01:25:34,280 --> 01:25:36,760 Yeah, I think that every developer should work on an 1483 01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:39,640 embedded system at least once, because they will never. 1484 01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:41,480 Because then you're like resource limited. 1485 01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:44,160 Just get a bigger server because you can't, right? 1486 01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:47,680 You can't get more RAM. I remember I was doing nerves 1487 01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:50,280 work and somebody, I asked a question and they were like, Oh 1488 01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:53,720 yeah, just grab some more RAM. I'm like, no, like I can't. 1489 01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:56,080 You don't understand. No option. 1490 01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:01,840 There is no more RAM. Yeah, that's a good point. 1491 01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:06,680 Like we get so used to just throwing RAM at the problem or, 1492 01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:11,440 you know, increasing size and speed, and you don't always have 1493 01:26:11,440 --> 01:26:13,880 that. That's why programmers of the 1494 01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:19,000 past are so much better 'cause they had to deal with the 1495 01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:23,040 limitations. Creativity is born out of 1496 01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,280 constraint, I've heard. I don't remember who said it. 1497 01:26:25,480 --> 01:26:26,720 I. Like that, yeah. 1498 01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,280 Yeah, I like that. Well, like I was thinking about 1499 01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:35,120 like the first like like mass multiplayer games like Tribes 1500 01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:38,840 and things like that. And like World of Warcraft when 1501 01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:44,240 it first came out, they have just these power gaming PCs. 1502 01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,680 They had to make it work and we had dial up. 1503 01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:53,040 Right, right. Like we didn't have fast 1504 01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:58,760 Internet and they didn't. They couldn't have lag issues or 1505 01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:02,280 any of that and they had to deal with it and make it seem feel 1506 01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:04,960 seamless. I remember playing early first 1507 01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:08,560 person shooters on dial up and like getting ready to shoot at 1508 01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:10,560 somebody and suddenly they're. And then they like moved, yeah, 1509 01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:13,320 'cause. There was a lag. 1510 01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:15,480 Oh, man. Over here now, yeah. 1511 01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:20,000 I remember like tribes and Counter strike and like such 1512 01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:22,360 good games but yeah lag could get you man. 1513 01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:25,840 Yeah, I don't play games any anymore. 1514 01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:26,920 I don't. Know I don't either. 1515 01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:32,200 Once I started programming it, almost when I did play games 1516 01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:35,240 when I was in college, I would feel really guilty about it 1517 01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:38,520 afterwards. But then also like a lot of 1518 01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,240 times, if I wasn't playing a multiplayer game especially, I 1519 01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:43,640 was like, I'm just fighting somebody's algorithm. 1520 01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:48,120 It became really disheartening for me, but. 1521 01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:52,040 I just like, I don't want to, I just think of it as a huge waste 1522 01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:55,760 of time now and I get at some people's outlets and way to like 1523 01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:58,000 relax. Mine is getting away from my 1524 01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:01,000 monitor so I just have to do something else. 1525 01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:03,200 Yeah, that's, that's me too. I got to. 1526 01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:05,440 I have to step away from looking at the screen. 1527 01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:10,800 Yeah, I stare at it all day, so I don't want to just relax and 1528 01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:16,280 stare at it more after work. Right, I don't even really watch 1529 01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:19,880 this TV right here that I have on the wall has never been 1530 01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:21,920 plugged in. Oh, that's been out there. 1531 01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:24,880 For like 7 years I actually. Did that. 1532 01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:27,560 Yeah, it was. It's the only TV in my house 1533 01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:32,720 too, and I was going to put in something to like monitor a 1534 01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:37,000 build system or Jira or whatever and just be able to have that 1535 01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,120 there. And then I was like, why? 1536 01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:44,680 So you don't have TV's in your house? 1537 01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:47,240 No. Nice, I like that. 1538 01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:57,280 In College, in 99, aging myself again at least. 1539 01:28:57,920 --> 01:28:59,680 You're older than me. It makes me feel good. 1540 01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:04,720 Perfect. I had ATV and a surround sound 1541 01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:09,360 system and I didn't watch a lot of TV like once in a while. 1542 01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:12,120 But I I had a friend who used to like just come into my room and 1543 01:29:12,120 --> 01:29:16,600 turn on the TV history channel when it still had history and 1544 01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:21,000 not aliens. And he would turn it on and I 1545 01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:24,040 didn't care anything about it, but it would draw my attention. 1546 01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:29,320 And then finally I was like, I got, I got rid of cable and was 1547 01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:32,440 like, OK, I'll just have like a DVD player in here. 1548 01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,200 And then when I got out of college, I, I actually lived 100 1549 01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:40,000 miles from where I worked. So I drove back and forth 100 1550 01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:44,600 miles each way for seven years. And so there was no time to 1551 01:29:44,600 --> 01:29:48,840 really watch TV. So we had AI, had AI, had a flat 1552 01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:52,760 screen TV that is smaller than any, it's smaller than my laptop 1553 01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:57,880 screen. And we used to rent movies from 1554 01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:03,840 Blockbuster and Netflix when Netflix still sent you movies in 1555 01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:05,560 the mail. I remember that, yeah. 1556 01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:09,360 And we would watch those and then I don't know when we 1557 01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:12,760 finally stopped. My wife was an English teacher 1558 01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,480 and like would rather read a book anyway most of the time. 1559 01:30:15,480 --> 01:30:18,560 And I was like, why should we pay? 1560 01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:20,880 We lived in the middle of the woods, so it was like, why 1561 01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:27,240 should I pay for satellite TV when I it's been, it's been 10 1562 01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:30,600 years, I don't care. So that's awesome. 1563 01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:32,880 I love. It we have a DVD player and a 1564 01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:35,320 projector and it's usually put away. 1565 01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:37,080 So if you want to watch something, you have to take the 1566 01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:38,680 time to pull the projector out and. 1567 01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:42,320 It's an event, so at least you're putting you're, you're, 1568 01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:45,240 you're not just watching it out of boredom to fill space. 1569 01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:48,000 You're actually like, yeah, we're going to watch this movie. 1570 01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:54,240 Yep, and every once in a while we'll be like, we'll buy videos 1571 01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:58,120 online, but normally only after people have told me that I 1572 01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:00,920 should watch it over and over and over till I'm like, OK fine, 1573 01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:03,640 fine. I'll go look and then it's also 1574 01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:06,680 something my wife would like or I'm not I, I just. 1575 01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:12,040 Yeah, I I've got into this habit. 1576 01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:16,680 I really enjoy watching the show alone before before I go to bed. 1577 01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:22,680 It's it's like a like a group of like 10 people get dumped in the 1578 01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:25,680 middle of nowhere and they're only allowed so many items and 1579 01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:28,000 they have to like hunt and survive on their own. 1580 01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:31,360 And it's whoever lasts the longest wins. 1581 01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:34,360 And it's just like a cool survivalist show. 1582 01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:36,080 It's pretty sweet. Is it? 1583 01:31:36,240 --> 01:31:39,720 Is it like a fiction or? No, it's real. 1584 01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:42,840 It's like a reality TV show. Yeah, interesting. 1585 01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:46,760 But like, say, and all these people are by themselves, like 1586 01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:49,480 they're in the same area but not near each other. 1587 01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:55,280 So like they're either fishing, hunting or starving and they, 1588 01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:59,400 they decide to drop out or they make it all the way. 1589 01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:02,680 It's pretty, it's cool. Like I, I think I like that 1590 01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:06,120 because like my spare time, I want to go camping, rock 1591 01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:09,320 climbing, something outdoors, you know? 1592 01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:13,160 So I enjoy that. Well, you're in the right place 1593 01:32:13,160 --> 01:32:15,600 for doing some outdoors. Utah's amazing. 1594 01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:21,520 I I accidentally found Utah and I I don't think I'll ever leave. 1595 01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:26,480 I I have not been yet, but I'd like to go to Zion. 1596 01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:28,760 Yes, that's fun. You should. 1597 01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:31,800 If you're ever in town, I could take you on some adventures. 1598 01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:35,960 We can do some canineering if you want, if you're brand. 1599 01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:36,920 New. Sounds good to me. 1600 01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:42,280 All right, fine. Last time I was in, well, I was 1601 01:32:42,280 --> 01:32:47,800 at AI, was at an Elixir conference in Salt Lake, but 1602 01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:51,520 before that I was in out there in the military, out in the salt 1603 01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:55,760 flats. What's cool about Utah is the 1604 01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:59,680 diversity of nature. Like you have, you know, your 1605 01:32:59,680 --> 01:33:04,360 typical mountain pine trees, right? 1606 01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:07,560 And then like you go South and you have all these crazy slot 1607 01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:10,960 canyons and rock formations and desert. 1608 01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,320 Like we have everything. It's kind of, it's kind of wild. 1609 01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:16,640 That is, that is really neat. Yeah, I remember leaving. 1610 01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:18,600 Fun, fun. Sorry. 1611 01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:20,280 Go ahead. I was going to say, I just 1612 01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:22,560 remember leaving Salt Lake and seeing all the mountains and 1613 01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:25,520 then we get out and then there was snow on them and then we get 1614 01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:29,520 out in the salt flats and it's just like pure, like as flat as 1615 01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:30,680 can be. It was wild. 1616 01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:36,560 And like, fun little fact, like slot canyons only exist in like 1617 01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:41,000 4 places in the world, and really two of them it's Utah and 1618 01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:44,880 Arizona. And then like, I think Australia 1619 01:33:44,880 --> 01:33:49,240 and like Pakistan, like it's so like, we're really lucky to have 1620 01:33:49,240 --> 01:33:52,120 things like that, yeah. That's pretty. 1621 01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:54,760 Yeah. I I mean, I'll bring a pocket 1622 01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:56,440 knife in case I have to cut my arm off. 1623 01:33:56,440 --> 01:34:00,600 It's fine. Dude, yeah, that that freaks me 1624 01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:04,120 out. That that guy, could you 1625 01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:08,320 imagine, like he had, he broke his, he broke his own arm and 1626 01:34:08,320 --> 01:34:10,680 then had to cut through his flesh with a pocket knife 1627 01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:14,120 because he couldn't cut his bone, so he had to break it. 1628 01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:16,200 Yeah, that's nuts. That's. 1629 01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:20,920 Nuts and like what a freak accident. 1630 01:34:20,920 --> 01:34:25,240 He just like fell just right and got wedged between rocks. 1631 01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:30,080 Yeah, if that if that happened to me, I'd probably just die. 1632 01:34:31,560 --> 01:34:35,200 I would like probably think less about cutting my arm off and 1633 01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:37,000 like be like maybe I'll just slit my throat. 1634 01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:40,800 Right, exactly. I'm kind of glad that movie's 1635 01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:43,080 out there, so now I know the path to make it home. 1636 01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:45,360 Yeah, just cut your own arm off, dude. 1637 01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:48,760 Right. There's this podcast that I love 1638 01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:51,360 to listen to. I don't know why it doesn't. 1639 01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:54,680 They don't make any new episodes, and I wish they 1640 01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:59,200 started it back up, but it's called Out Alive, Out Alive. 1641 01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:01,800 Yeah. And it's all these like Freak. 1642 01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:04,920 Podcasts you might be able to get me 'cause I can listen to 1643 01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:06,160 them in the car. I can't watch them in the car. 1644 01:35:08,480 --> 01:35:11,080 Look, look up, out, alive. Out alive. 1645 01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:15,760 I'm writing it down. And it is so good because it's 1646 01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:20,040 like, it's just like these crazy circumstances, like these people 1647 01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:24,200 will have done this like they've rock climbed or repelled like 1648 01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:26,120 hundreds of times. And then just like a freak 1649 01:35:26,120 --> 01:35:29,800 accident happens. And it's always about like, you 1650 01:35:29,800 --> 01:35:33,160 know, sometimes people die, but it's usually like they're 1651 01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,080 interviewing the person that survived. 1652 01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:39,400 And it's just like the craziest stories, like it's. 1653 01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:41,760 Cool. I mean, yeah, yeah, I'm 1654 01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:44,360 listening. To it, it's a good one. 1655 01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:47,760 It's like it's, it's impressive what people are capable of 1656 01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:50,800 doing. When you're pressured, yeah. 1657 01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:53,560 Yeah, when you. It's the only option, right? 1658 01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:57,360 Like your body could be broken and you can still pull yourself 1659 01:35:57,360 --> 01:36:02,280 over a boulder field for five miles and survive like it's wild 1660 01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:05,480 stuff or like you got mauled by a grizzly. 1661 01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:09,520 Yeah. Yeah. 1662 01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:13,760 Well, on that note, I think we can wrap this up. 1663 01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:16,560 It was a lot of fun chatting with you. 1664 01:36:16,680 --> 01:36:18,520 I really appreciate you coming on. 1665 01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:21,720 I don't know if we said a whole lot useful to anybody else, but 1666 01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:22,960 I appreciate getting to know you. 1667 01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:26,040 Yeah, yeah. Sorry guys, we might not have 1668 01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:29,720 hit a lot of elixir talk, but sometimes that happens. 1669 01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:34,000 But I appreciate you coming on, Amos. 1670 01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:37,120 And yeah, this was fun. And for everyone that tuned in, 1671 01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:39,680 thanks for tuning in. Hope you have a good weekend. 1672 01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:44,600 And yeah, I'll see you guys. Not next week, I'm out of town, 1673 01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:49,400 but I'm doing 2 podcasts the following week so got to play 1674 01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:52,280 catch up. But all right, thanks a lot man. 1675 01:36:52,360 --> 01:36:54,080 It was a good, it was a good conversation. 1676 01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:55,520 You too. Thanks. 1677 01:36:58,040 --> 01:36:58,640 Testing.